The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace with Minda Harts

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3:15Hey, it's Morgan, the executive producer of the show, and I am so excited to share that the guest host of Money Rehab this week is Minda Hartz. Minda is a best-selling and award-winning author, workplace advocate, and thought leader in self-advocacy and trust restoration. Minda's a big deal. Minda was named LinkedIn's number one top voice in the workplace in 2020 and one of Business Insider's top 100 people transforming business in 2022. Her books like The Memo, Write Within, and You Are More Than Magic have empowered countless professionals to advocate for themselves and create lasting change in their careers.

3:58But let me tell you about her next book. Her next book, Talk to Me Nice, The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace, is all about that. Strategies to make your work life better through building trust in your teams. And if you're thinking, I don't really feel like trust is that big of a deal at work, well, Minda is going to tell you today that not only does trust help teams feel better, but they also operate better. And as a result, you can see the effects of trust on a business's bottom line, so we really should all be taking this seriously. And if you're thinking to yourself, I don't think I have trust issues at work, well, you should still listen to this week of episodes because Minda will give you a whole new way to think about trust that will make the trust that you have even stronger.

4:43Plus, this week she talked to some pretty fascinating people. From leadership expert Simon Sinek, who has made trust cool, as evidenced by his 3.9 million followers on Instagram. and Carl Lentz, who was the lead pastor of the Church Hillsong, where he was a spiritual advisor to many, including celebrities like Justin Bieber, among others. But today, before we get into all of those conversations, I wanted you to get to know Minda. So I interviewed her, all about her research on trust and why we should care. Oh, and you'll hear in the interview, she says that she's not sure if she can reveal who she's interviewing this week.

5:22And obviously I just gave some of those people away, but I just had to give you a sneak peek. And you know what? Enough with the previews. Let's just dive in. Here's my conversation with Minda.

5:36Minda Hartz, welcome to Money Rehab. Hey, Morgan. Happy to be here. So happy to be talking to you. You are an author, a speaker, an educator, but take us all back to the days before you built your big career. Let's go back to when you were little. What did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be so many things, probably like many of us, you know, most of us out with, you know, teaching because we'd be playing teacher right in the room. And then I moved to a firefighter and then I went to college for dentistry. And so I thought that I would become a dentist and then I, the chemistry just took me out.

6:19So I just moved somewhere else. I did not know any, any of this about you. So what did you do next? What was your first job out of college? So once I realized that chemistry and me were not a good fit, I decided I went to my guidance counselor, I was like, I have all these credits, what could I get into that I can graduate somewhat on time, right? And it was communications. And so I, my first job out of college, because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do was an administrative assistant. And so I was doing like executive admin work and that type of thing. And then I realized that that probably wasn't it either.

7:01But I did like working with people. And I just saw the way that some admins were treated in a corporate environment. And I realized that, you know, two things can be true at the same time. You could work at the same place and have a different experience as everybody else. And that kind of got me thinking about what I might end up doing down the line. Wow. Yeah. I also started my first job out of college was also as an executive assistant. And so I can definitely sympathize with probably what you saw there. So can you bridge the gap between that time and when you wrote your first book, The Memo, which was and is such a sensation.

7:44So I'd love to hear kind of what you were doing leading up to that, but also would love to hear you talk about the book and where the mission of the book came from. Yeah. Every job that I had once I graduated from college, I was always the only, the only woman in many cases, the only woman of color, the only black woman, the youngest, you know, I sat at a lot of different identities or intersections. And when I left my admin role, I ended up getting a consulting role. I guess you'd call that my like big, big salary after I left the admin world. And, you know, just the way that I would be in certain rooms with many people that you've seen on Fortune magazine, Forbes magazine, and just the way that people talked about other people as though they weren't in the room, you know, like, you're not like those other people, you know, and all those sorts of things that I was just experiencing in a world that I wasn't necessarily thought about in, but I was accepted in.

8:42And so it really just started to make me think about toxic workplace cultures. And I worked in very toxic environments. And so I started writing this blog. Now I'm dating myself. writing this blog about my experiences as a woman of color as the only and one of few and eventually the blog started to become popular we we didn't have like the viralness of language back then but more than just my mom and my brother started to subscribe and other people were saying wow that's a similar experience that I'm having and so I my story which I thought was isolating and was just kind of for me allowed me to help other people identify and articulate what they were experiencing too.

9:32And then the blog turned into a bestselling book down the line. But had you told me when I said, I can't do this chemistry anymore, that eventually I'd become a bestselling author, I couldn't have written it better myself. What was it? What was it like for you? Because I, I was going to ask you, and then you sort of naturally talked about it, like the observing and witnessing toxic workplace culture and being the only, like you said, I can imagine how isolating that must have felt. And so before you wrote the blog, was there any sort of like moment where you were talking to a friend or somebody that you met through networking, like a peer where you had a moment where you thought, oh, it's not just me.

10:21I'm not the only period. I'm the only at my company, but every company has their only. And so there needs to be resources for people going through this experience or like best practices, because the memo is full of like practical information and resources that people can use when they are in that situation where they're the only specifically women of color. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, even if you aren't a woman of color, but you work with them. You know, I wrote the book so that people could also remove barriers for people. And so for me, I spent, you know, this 13 year period in corporate America where I wasn't talking about the things that I was experiencing, because as many of us women sometimes feel, we have to be strong at the expense of our own well-being, right?

11:07Grin as you bear it and don't let them see you sweat all of these certain narratives that we have to uphold. And And so I didn't feel like I had the agency to talk about those things because the stories that we tell ourself are just as damning as the stories that we allow other people to tell about you. And so when people would say, oh, Minda, that's just Chad being Chad or you need thick skin or look what the money that you make, it allows you to go to, you know, travel to Tulum and Tokyo. And so I started to internalize that. Well, you know, maybe it's not that bad. Maybe this is just how it's supposed to be because look at my life.

11:42Right. But when I started to experience depression, anxiety, panic attacks, I realized that there was no paycheck that could make me feel better about that. You know, I was one of the top performers and yet experiencing no humanity, dignity and respect in the workplace. And once I started to go to therapy, because that ended up being my soft place to land, my therapist didn't work with me to say, you know what, Minda, this is not what the workplace is supposed to look like. This is what a toxic workplace looks like. And you do have the power and the agency. And once I started to be a little more vulnerable, Morgan, I realized that it wasn't just me.

12:20My story was her story. Hmm. That's so that's that's so amazing. And I am so in awe of people like you who kind of have that revelation wherever it is in therapy or with a friend or reading somebody else's blog. and they sort of look at how they can go beyond their own experience. Like I think a lot of people would be like, amazing. So glad I worked that out in therapy. But that you turned around and thought about the other people who maybe hadn't had that aha moment and how to trigger that for them. And I just, I think that's really amazing. And you didn't stop there. You have continued to think about workplace environments that can be improved, that have room for improvement.

13:06And your next book, which is out later this year, is called Talk to Me Nice, The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace. And it gives actionable strategies for restoring trust in the workplace. And so why was this the next topic that you want to trade about? I know you've written other books in the time between, but why is this the topic for your upcoming book? Yeah, you know, I get the opportunity to speak at a lot of companies and conferences. And rather, I'm talking to women of color or men or young adults. one thing always stood out to me was what the core of what people were telling me about their experiences in the workplace is that they didn't trust the people they worked with.

13:44They were side-eyeing those people, right? So, you know, there was a reason why these things were happening, or maybe trust was never there in the workplace. And I thought, you know what, I've been writing about this specific topic, but I'm ready to have a crossover album because everybody experiences either enhanced trust or eroded trust. Trust is a global language and experience. And so I wanted to be able to say, you know, if we have these so-called love languages that have entered into the cultural zeitgeist, what about trust languages? What are the languages we need inside the workplace to make the workplace work for everybody or a little bit better?

14:21And we're going to talk about those languages in just a second. But first, I want to think about those people who you were talking to at these conferences and how you connected the dots and found trust as the common denominator between all of these stories? Because I think that some people listening who are in a work environment and they know that something's not quite right, but they can't quite place it, they might not see that the symptoms that they're experiencing, the root cause is a trust problem. And so can you talk a little bit about what it might look like in a workplace environment, if there's a lack of trust, like what are those symptoms?

14:59What might people experience? Yeah. You know, it's funny, Morgan, when I, you know, I've written three books already and I thought that those were the last, like, you know, I'm like, it's happy to write a book. I'm like, I don't really think I have anything I want to say anymore. And then at like three o 'clock in the morning, this song by Drake called Trust Issues just kept like ringing. I'm like, Oh, wait a second. People are experiencing trust issues every day in the workplace. This is like what people have been telling me about. And then I just started to kind of jot things down. And that's kind of how I thought about this.

15:33But as you said, people would tell me or they'd write me or DM me and say, Oh, I don't trust my manager because we just had a layoff and they just act like there was nothing to see here and nothing to do. I don't trust them. And I said, well, what's the real reason you don't trust them? Yes, they didn't tell you that this layoff was coming and they're not being maybe humanizing the experience of those who might have survivor's guilt. And I started to unpack that with them. And what we found is that really they just wanted some transparency. And then I came to somebody else and they were saying, oh, I don't trust one of my colleagues because I asked them about something and they never tell me, you know, how I did with the project, what's going on with it.

16:14And I said, well, is it that you don't trust them or that you need some feedback? Right. So I started to think about what was it that people were actually saying but weren't saying. And it made me think about these languages that if we had these languages that we already use in our in our day to day, but use them in a way that gets to removing barriers for people because nobody's going around with a crystal ball in the workplace. What does Morgan want today? Right. So if I could say, you know what, I really appreciate our working relationship, but I need a little more transparency when certain things happen.

16:51I know you can't tell me everything, but if we can articulate what it is we need, then people can know what good looks like to us. That's so useful. And you just gave two of the seven trust languages that you've identified, transparency and feedback. What are the other five? What are all seven? So transparency, follow through, feedback, security, acknowledgement, demonstration, and sensitivity. Can you talk a little bit more about those? Like what might that actually look like or mean in a work environment? Yes. Well, without giving away too much, because I want people to - Yes, of course. But I'll give an example.

17:33So sensitivity, for example. Recently, we've had, if you're in the United States, we've had an election, right? And there's people who might feel one way about the election results, and there might be a group of people who feel another way, and then there might be a group who are indifferent, right? But the reality is, when we enter into the workplace, we need the language of sensitivity, because there are people who feel like this is the best thing, and there's people who feel like their world is ending, right? And two things can be true. And both sides, all people involved in the workplace need to be sensitive to how their colleagues are experiencing things.

18:09Right. And so maybe the best thing to do isn't to wear a certain T-shirt to the one on one meeting where you know that the person sitting there. Really good point. Yeah. Yeah, that's not going to help the relationship. Right. And I think if we think about it, like I don't expect all of us to flex the language of all seven. But if we're speaking each other's language a little bit more than we were the day before or an hour before, then that person can trust us a little bit. Because the reality is, Morgan, that we could have trust at 9 a.m. and one decision will impact that and erode trust by lunchtime.

18:45Right. And so if we're just thinking a little bit more about, OK, I may not be sensitive to this, but the person I work with, they're going to need a little sensitivity from me. And so I just feel like if we're speaking a language that we both can understand, because sensitivity is, again, that's universal, right? We all have a feeling involved in that. And I just thought, OK, what if we put some kind of baseline markers for people, for humanity and respect in the workplace? Could we have a less toxic workplace?

19:18Hold on to your wallets. Money Rehab will be right back. And now for some more Money Rehab.

19:31You have clearly been thinking about this a lot because you came up with seven languages for it. Is it because you have had in your own workplace life or your own career a breakdown of trust? and you can be totally general here. I'm not trying to out anyone, but is this something, is this an experience that you've had yourself? And what did that look like as much as you feel comfortable sharing? Yeah, absolutely. I think that myself, there's been times where in my former life, I had managers that I wasn't sure that I could trust that they had my best interest in mind or that they cared about the trajectory of my career.

20:09And instead of saying, I don't trust so-and-so, it's like, what is it that I really want from them? because if I can articulate what it is I need, then maybe they can give it to me. Right. But if I don't ever have the conversation, then I can't, where are my expectations for someone who doesn't know what I need? Right. And so I started to kind of create these languages, not knowing that eventually I'd use them later. So for example, one of the things I realized that I needed from a manager in order to feel seen, feel trusted in some capacity, we weren't BFFs, But I needed acknowledgement. So if I'm doing all of this work, I don't want you to pretend like, OK, next project.

20:47I need you to give me some acknowledgement. You know, give me that employee of the month, girl, you know, something so that I know that you care about the work that I'm doing, that you value the work that I do. Right. And that keeps us having a more trusting relationship because I'm going to want to do my best work for somebody who acknowledges me and trusts me with the work that I'm doing. And so I've had tons of managers who have broken trust and they've never even acknowledged that they made a mistake. Right. So I don't expect people to be without flaws because we're all flawed in some way, but acknowledge those things when they happen.

21:23Right. You know, again, for me, I just started to think about what what would I have needed in those moments or what do I need to ask for so that at least I can say, you know what, what gets the best out of me in the workplace is when you acknowledge that I've been the top performer for the last 12 months. You know, that helps me do my best. And then you give that person the opportunity to either rise to the occasion or not. But either way, you need to know that because there's some statistic out there, Morgan, around like 80 % of people leave their jobs never having a conversation about the conflict, a job that they love.

21:58We actually have a conversation to find out, could somebody acknowledge me a little bit more than they did in the last 30 days? That's going to help me maybe want to stick around a little bit more. Yeah. And I can even just tell you from my own experience that those conversations really can be so impactful beyond the two people who are having the conversation. Like, for example, I was at a podcast company before this one where we were going through the process of unionizing. And it was the first time in sort of those early meetings where it was just the employees who was kind of talking about what they need from leadership and things like that, that I had ever had a conversation about salary transparency with my coworkers.

22:43and I found out that there was somebody on the team that I was on who had the same job title as me and had been working there longer, but I was getting paid almost double what she was getting paid. And it made me feel sick. It made me feel terrible. And she had shared her salary first, and it made me not want to say anything because I was like, I feel like the bad guy. I have so much privilege that I didn't even realize that I had. But I just I thought like this is the moment where I need to be transparent because I think it will help her negotiate for a better deal for herself. And I told her how it made me feel.

23:21I was like, I feel guilty that I'm making this much more than you. And she was like, don't because I don't want you to make less. I just want to make more. And it was such a useful conversation for everybody on our team because it made everyone feel more comfortable being transparent about how much we were getting paid. And it made us all just ask for the same thing and be on the same page from leadership. And so it was a conversation that we had that just had such a bigger impact beyond just the two of us. And so I can say that I certainly know that this is really, these things are really important.

23:52Building trust is so important. You mentioned broken trust and you, in your book, talk about rebuilding trust. And so I think I already know your answer, but is it really possible to rebuild trust once some of it has been lost? You know, well, thank you for telling that story about transparency, because if we're talking about it, then somebody else is going to benefit from it too, right? It's just more trust to go around. In terms of rebuilding trust, I do think it's possible, right? But people have to be willing to do the work. And I think kind of ownership is like the baseline. So if we have made a mistake, I know for me, if somebody does something to me, and I trust them initially, and then they do some kind of shady move, I would prefer them to come and say, you know, Amanda, sorry, I failed you.

24:43Here's what was going on. You know, no excuses, but this is what it is. And I'm willing to do what it takes to restore however you might feel about me. I'm more willing to say, you know what, I'll give that person another chance because I want somebody to give me another chance if I make a mistake and I own my stuff. Right. And so but it's one of the other language is the follow through. Are you continuously having patterns where we're going back to this thing? And I've, and you're always apologizing to me for this thing. That's a little bit harder. But if we look at, is this a one-time thing?