Demis Hassabis on AGI, Robots Scale Production, and Elon’s $1T Mars-Shot Comp | EP #253

23:41Peter Diamandis:Yeah, you'd have to distribute it or something, but he doesn't care about that. It's not in this for the money at all. When you look at this is the trial of the century. It's the trial of the millennium. like the outcome of this trial could dictate a big part of the future of all of human endeavor and all both of these guys know that ai is self-improving and it's on the cusp right now of exploding into this superhuman exponential capability and it all the control of it these are super voting structures so the control of all of that lands in just a few hands yeah now if you said, well, these are just business guys.

24:18Peter Diamandis:Well, Sam Altman actually had a governor run planned for himself, for the governor of California. These are not apolitical people. You saw Elon. Mark Zuckerberg started putting assets into a trust so that he could get ready to run for something. He gave up on that after he was in front of Congress. But these are not apolitical people who are just sort of working on a startup. They're aware that this is the future of all of humanity that's at play here. It's a great point. Steven, you're not playing in this field as closely as all of us are. What do you think of this insanity? So I have a rule.

24:54If I'm not actively working on a problem, then I don't like talking about it because then I'm just gossiping. All right. And as far as I can tell, this is just gossip. It is just gossip. But I got to push back on your statement. I like you know my feeling I think most like I think comments like you just made about AI are absurd like are you working with a very different machine than I'm working with because the machine that I work with and I've worked with AI as a scientist and I work with AI as a writer and I do it on a daily basis use a paid model

25:35nobody likes him much he doesn't have many friends in the room yeah so like I can't like I really I think AI is fake I like I hear you guys comments and I'm like if you I'll give you an example Alex the other day on your podcast made the comment that And you think I don't listen. That you went out and asked a bunch of 10 CEOs, how long until an AI is smarter than your best 10 employees? And their answer was, oh, it's there now. And I listened to that and went, well, then to have their 10 best employees are must be fucking morons. Because my experience working with AI on a daily basis is this machine doesn't know shit.

26:21I spend more time trying to teach it how to write than watching it write. I spend more time fixing the AI. And as a scientist, I think it's absurd as well. I'm doing neuroscience with it, and I'm watching the AI, which is supposed to know every fucking thing there is about neuroscience, miss huge gaps in huge fields. It's a convergent thinking engine. It doesn't do divergence. And most of the big breakthroughs are never true. So, like, I think this is, I mean, it's the future of humanity.

26:53Peter Diamandis:I'll take the high road on this one. By the way, I'm opinionated and nobody much likes me. I would say, taking the high road, I would say, if that's your experience, you have almost an obligation to humanity to create benchmarks to encode this knowledge that you have that you think isn't being accurately or fully or effectively reflected right now in AIs. If you were to create a Kotler bench that encodes all of your wisdom, all of your writing knowledge. But it's not my wisdom. It's just basic writing skills. Let me take a quick poll here in the room. How many people are in the camp of, oh, my God, this AI is not impressing me.

27:35It's got challenges and so forth versus AW. Raise your hand if you can. And how many people here in the camp like, oh, my God, this is amazing technology and it's extraordinary? Oh, I'm not saying it's not extraordinary. I'm just saying it's limited. Just for those watching us, it was about 96 % in favor of AWG. Oh, wait, I forgot we had a live audience. Sorry. And 4%. Yes. Okay. I'm going to move us on. No, no. This is an important conversation. All right. Go ahead. One of the most important we ever have, right? I sit kind of in the middle of this because I think the technology is unbelievable.

28:12We're going to do unbelievable things with it. It's just going to take a lot longer to get it to where we want to get to than we want. And this is, I think, what Stephen's talking about to some extent. The other part of it is, you've heard my beef about this, which is we have no idea what intelligence is. We have different facets of intelligence. There's about a dozen different facets of emotional intelligence, the Eastern concept of presence or awareness. Some of us have musical intelligence or spatial intelligence if you're an athlete or linguistic intelligence. If you're a business leader using emotional intelligence a great deal when you're making business judgment calls, and that's just not in the game for an AI right now, which is very analytical and numerically driven.

28:54So there is definitely a concept. I fall apart on this when people go, AI will become smarter than human beings. What the hell do you mean by smarter? And there are 14 definitions of AGI at last count. Which one are we talking about? Right? And so this is the huge, we have such a huge gap. It's amazing that we can raise hundreds of billions of dollars for a concept that we can't define measure or test. Try it. But other than that, that's great. So no question that it's making massive differences and our ability to navigate cognitive tasks will absolutely get there. But I would be kind of in the middle here because Stephen has a point.

29:31The technology is not where it could be. But we will happily see how it can get there pretty quickly. So I'm kind of in the middle.

29:38Peter Diamandis:I just need to make one point because before Steve makes a tragic prediction error. Oh, I don't make predictions. I leave the future as under you guys. I'm just a reporter. I just want to make the point that if you look at the benchmarks that Alex was referring to, for AI to self-improve, very hard math problems like humanity's last exam are the trigger of self-improvement. It is not a great writer, and it's definitely not funny. But if you said to me, well, it couldn't possibly build a better AI algorithm until it's funny. That's intuitively my big sense. Not true at all. I spent six years as an AI researcher.

30:17Peter Diamandis:I tell you, all you need to do is tweak the algorithms, try different parameters, try different transfer functions and do it iteratively at very high rates. And the algorithm just magically just like it's more like evolution than writing a book. It's like looking at the furry little mammals after the asteroid struck 66 million years ago and say, they're never going to be able to write code and build humanity. Here's the counter to this. And this, I think, is the difference between coming at it as a writer or an artist or a creative versus coming at it as a coder. It hasn't gotten better. As a writer.

30:56As a writer. It has not improved. In fact, I've seen it get worse. And I'm not just talking about one model. I'm talking about most of the models. Compared to GPT-2 four years ago? Compared to GPT-3, I think, like honestly, well, first of all, ChatGPT is so much worse now as a writer than it was a year ago. When we started this book versus now, it's gotten worse.

31:20Peter Diamandis:I don't actually write books with it, so I actually don't even know. But I do use all the top tier models to design new neural network tests and experiments. So exactly the self-improvement problem and it's every dot release is dramatically shockingly better I can literally go to it and say I'm not saying you're wrong I'm looking at the same data you are I've seen the same improvements that people are saying right there I see the claims but my daily experience and I'm both as a scientist and now as a scientist It's amazing what it can pull together But what's more amazing to me is the really obvious stuff it misses.

31:59Yeah, like as a neuroscientist one of the reasons one of the ways I built all my organizations is I saw gaps in neuroscience that needed to be solved with people from multiple disciplines, right? So I pulled in embodied cognitions and I pulled in all and the AI still can't do any of that.

32:15Peter Diamandis:Let me give you another thought experiment just before we go because people underreact and it's more dangerous to underreact and overreact. But if if I go to somebody and I say look here's here's Claude 4.7 and here's Stephen Codler Let me give them both this very difficult writing task and write something really entertaining in the next five minutes And you just kill it you crush it You're great. I'm better than Claude 4.7 now you say Claude 4.7 I want you to write it a billion times and then I'm gonna put a prose process on top of that to select the very best article You would normally as a human say that's cheating.

32:49Peter Diamandis:That's bullshit. That's cheating But when you're talking about AI self-improvement, it's perfectly fair. Better lesson. Perfectly fair. Okay, that's fair. Stephen, I would just... That's a fair point. Again, I encourage you as a scientist, as you say, to be rigorous in how you measure progress or lack thereof. If you're going to assert that there's been a regression in terms of creative writing capabilities, for example, create your own benchmark and then show the world. How do you measure it? Yeah. Show the world that there's been a regression. and I will promise you, if you construct it well, you will get the Frontier Labs interested in including your benchmark in every other eval suite.

33:25Peter Diamandis:As an optimization function. That's right. And you will get your better creative writing. Salim, do you want to have a final point here? Two points. One is my very first prompt in the ChatGPT was rewrite the Bible, Genesis chapter one, as a rap song. And it completely blew my mind. It was something I never could have said. that so i remember that right you sent that around i remember that um but i i will also say that i i know you very well stephen and you're such a profound writer i could completely imagine that no ai would satisfy anywhere near what you can do individually now if you take dave's approach yeah we'll get there right um it would be an ai representing me right now in this chair would be way better than me just because it would remember everything i've ever said every anecdote I've ever used every metaphor ever ever used and be bring the right thing at the right time in a way that I just can't do it my stupid one liter brain with a napkin size needle cortex.

34:23Let me ask you a question how's it going to do that because if I put for example this whole book into chat GBT or grok or take your pick yeah it's got a working memory that's about 2 000 words long it can't even remember it's a million tokens right now I hear what you're saying and I'm telling you my experience of working with it as a writer is I think again you're such a profoundly amazing writer this is not a story about Stephen being an exception Stephen's just a dude who plays with words a point of view and I love let's set up a benchmark But I'm going to move us on, please. All right. This is why they don't let me out of the workshop very often.

35:10And by the way, it is gossip talking about it, but it's gossip. And these trials are critically at the center of this ecosystem that is going to impact humanity for the next millennium. And it's important to understand it. Okay, but let's move into robotics. This is a story about figure robotics. Figure AI run by Brett Adcock is scaling their manufacturing. manufacturing uh dave you and i had a chance to go and visit a great pod uh with brett by the way brett's agreed to come and be one of our opening speakers at the abundance summit uh in march of 2027 and bring the figure robot with him let's take a look at the figure robot in this video

36:16So in all honesty, who first thinking is it a deep fake or is it real? Right. I mean, that's we need to flip that in our minds. It's a real video. They've increased production from one robot per day to one robot per hour. and their target is 100 ,000 robots between now and 2030. So just showing you figure because it's one of the best funded. They've raised at, you know, 30 plus billion dollar valuation. My fund, Bold Capital. Are we an investor at Link into? Not yet.

36:51Peter Diamandis:No, no, we didn't get him. Here's another. But we're going to be, I mean, one of the decisions you've made, Dave, and we've talked about is the fact that the the window for the hottest AI companies is going to be closing and the window for what will be opening well so we're really gearing up for robotics actually because you know software it has a limited life left in it because yeah I write software so so so well robotics and data centers will go on for a decade or so maybe more here's one next technologies again Dave and I had a chance to go meet with Bernd Bornick and this is their their robot called Neo they've just opened up a new manufacturing facility in Hawthorne California 58 ,000 square feet production goal is 10 ,000 robots this year Bernd has promised me a robot by this fall I'm going to keep him to it so Bernd if you're watching first of all friend of the pod thank you so much i'd love my neo uh whatever version of neo neo gamma whatever's coming out 100 000 in 2027 shipments expected later this year let's check out their video

38:12now that guy's job is very limited

38:28A lot of humans in that video. Yep.

38:30Peter Diamandis:Doing very simple things. That was the eye opener. We went to the Gigafactory and Elon was saying, look, the robots are going to make the robots. I'm like, I can't imagine this thing making tiny little parts. But I didn't get it until we got to the Gigafactory. Everything is already automated. The robots assemble the automation equipment. It arrives in like Amazon boxes. You take it out of the box. You put it on, you turn a screw, and now you've got a new manufacturing line. So the bottleneck is the humanoid actions. Everything else is already automated. Philip, I think this is our answer, by the way.

39:03You want to know what, like, you want job security over the next 25 years? Be a robot repairman. Yeah. Because they can only do that. We literally just invested in a company. Literally, like, be a robot. Figure out how to repair robots. But there's an entire ecosystem of businesses around this, like insurance, right? Now, the third story in this triplet is Elon predicts one million Optimus production by 2030. Tell me how this isn't just a play to get investment money. Well, it probably is. To get people to buy his robots before cheaper Chinese robots show up. Every time he opens his mouth and makes a statement about robotics, I think he's just trying to sell it before China gets here.

39:44The guy has been able to scale Tesla to be the dominant auto manufacturer on the planet and bring the price down at a rate like nobody else. And these robots, which, you know, he said publicly, and I agree with him, that Tesla, you know, a decade or two from now is going to be known as the production company of Optimus robot, not cars. And Mark Zuckerberg announced that his company was going to become, wait, what was it called? Meta. It was about the, what was that place called? The Metaverse. Has anybody been there yet? Have you met my sarcastic friend here? I'm just pointing out reality.

40:21Peter Diamandis:The way entrepreneurship works fundamentally is you declare a target and you evangelize the target and then you attract the talent and the capital necessary to hit the target. If you choose your targets wisely, they're achievable targets. If you choose them poorly, you're a bad entrepreneur. It's just that simple. But if you don't declare the target, you know, Boston is famous for this, actually. being very conservative and not even announcing something to the world until it's proven eight ways till Tuesday. It doesn't work. It is working less well over time because exponential change is on this accelerating rate.

40:54Peter Diamandis:And so much more is possible. But nobody cares that Elon stands on stage and lies? Neuralink. He's directionally correct. Neuralink is vaporware. We're going to be able to link humans to the internet? No. Yes. There's foundational neurobiological problems with Elon's plan. And how do we know? Because everybody's quit his damn company and gone and fart in different neurotech companies because his way is so absurd. And nobody cares. I'm sorry. I don't think you get to lie in public.

41:29One of the best things about capitalism is you can have the market fight it out. So yes, there are multiple BCI companies. I have a unique perspective here. I can see the steam coming out of it. out of Alex's ears. Alex has been really nice to me so far. He's been really nice to me.

41:47Peter Diamandis:I think this falls under the category of don't feed the trolls. Ooh, too short. Can I give you my beef on this? Please. Okay, you've heard me rant about the humanoid side of it before, but I have actually a rationale for this. Robots are really good at repetitive tasks and navigating constant things and not making mistakes when they're doing like the guy put a screwing in the thing. When you have a repetitive task you don't need a humanoid robot. A humanoid is designed for very adaptable environments which are not that repetitive and that's completely counter to where you'd use a robot. Look at the numbers right there on the chart.

42:26Wheeled robot drones etc etc goes with the form factor and you've heard my standard rant. At least give it another pair of arms. Every time anybody ever holds up a garbage bag open you need a third arm and why not give it why not give it that for god's sake so end right there so i think there's a spectrum here of how repetitive and robot-like is the task versus how adaptable in human if it's a very adaptable human task you don't need a robot um and then if you have a repetitive thing then make it look like the thing it needs to be like a wheel robot or a dishwasher which is really good at washing dishes at scale.

43:04So I'm going to add one piece to the mix and ask you, Alex, to comment here, which is the prediction that comes both from Elon and from Brad Adcock of a target of up to 10 billion humanoid robots by 2040, which you think is totally sane. Well, with humanoid robots, the one thing that Salim didn't point out that I sort of disagree with is we are going to need that for taking care of aging humans. If like one thing, while longevity escape philosophy to me seems absurd, are we going to live a lot longer? Hell yes. Don't ever call me again. I know. I know. But you need humanoid robots for human form factors, right?

43:47Like they were originally designed because we built nuclear reactors where we had to send them in for disaster robots, right? They were the form of a nuclear reactor was built for humans. So in the early disaster robots, we needed humans to go in there and do stuff because it was a human environment. We're bringing in robots into our lives to take care of ourselves. That's a human form factor. So when I see and when you're dealing with human health as a driver of economic development, that's like we put money into that. So I think this may be like a very valid point. Yeah, I hear you. This is the counter argument.

44:21Alex, can you call him a troll on this one? I'm going to tee you up in the following way. So just for some background information, right, there are on the order of 1.6 billion cars on the road today, right, and 100 million cars manufactured per year. And if you look at the iPhone production rate in year one, iPhone had 1.3 million devices, and now we're up to 250 million iPhones produced per year. Wow. What do you think about these numbers that Elon's projecting at a million by 2030 and billions in the 2040s? It's probably right.

45:00Peter Diamandis:I've done the same extrapolations others have. You extrapolate the humanoids curve here. You find that in the early 2030s, the number of humanoids is predicted to cross the number of wheeled robots. I would I would assume there's relatively little alpha left at this point in any Counter prediction that it's not going to be the case that humanoids pass humans by the end of the 2030s What I think is perhaps even more interesting is what is a post humanoid? Robot form factor look like so we might I know you like to add lots of arms That that's your wheels anything that that's your favorite body shape, but I think there are many problems that I think they're he's Indian they have these goddess gods and goddess with all his arms thank you thank you that totally makes sense you see why it's been pretty good for a long time remember Shiva's destroyer let's just point that out but I would point out there are more exotic body shapes that I would expect to see by 2040 that will make human humanoid shapes look positively prosaic I do expect by 2040 we're going to get our nanorobots for example, are Drexlerian nanorobots.

46:11Peter Diamandis:And I would expect many, many trillions of those to be in our solar system. And I think we look back from 2040 at this prediction of 10 billion plus, and we'll laugh at ourselves that this will be the equivalent of predicting atomic vacuum cleaners to help housewives from the 1950s. Well, of course, we're going to have 10 billion plus humanoids, but what about the nanorobots? Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the health section of Moonshots brought to you by Fountain Life. You know, my mission is to help you use the latest technologies, including AI, to not just do your work at home, teach your kids, but to help you live a long and healthy life.

46:48I'm here today with an extraordinary physician, the chief medical officer of Fountain Life, Dr. Don Musalem. Don, let's talk about cancer. You know, I know from the member database that we have at Fountain, our members who come in who think they're healthy, It turns out 3.3 % of them have a cancer in their body they don't know about.

47:08Peter Diamandis:That's right. You know, the majority of cancers that we screen for, those aren't the ones that are necessarily taking the lives when found at a late stage. We know that when cancer is found early, the chances for cure are much higher. We know it's much easier to treat a cancer when found early versus when found late. What we're finding in our members is over 3.3 % were found to have these cancers that were otherwise wouldn't have been found or detected. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. People, you don't feel the cancer until stage three or stage four. And if you don't know what's going on inside your body, it's like driving your car with your eyes closed.

47:42And you can know. And so when members come through found, how do they detect cancers? So we're doing full body MRI, and we also do early cancer detection screening.

47:52Peter Diamandis:This is very, very important. And these are not typical tools used in the conventional care setting when it comes to prevention. This is a hard thing because currently these are not studies that insurance would yet be covering. But the goal is to collect these numbers, do the research and work hard to democratize wellness. Yeah. So at the end of the day, you can know what's going on inside your body. It's your obligation to know. So check out Fountain Life and go to fountainlife.com slash Peter to get access to the latest technology to help you detect cancer at the very beginning at stage one, when it is curable before it gets to stage three or stage four in your world of hurt.

48:29All right, let's move it to China, which, by the way, is a centerpiece of robotics. And so this is a ruling of a Chinese court that AI is not legally allowed to displace employees. So here's the story. This is in Hangzhou. There was a case of a tech worker named Zhao who reportedly was earning 25 ,000 yuan per month. It was offered a demotion of 15 ,000 won per month after AI automated parts of his role, and the court sided with him after he refused to pay it out. The court logic was simple. Adopting AI was a business choice, not an unavoidable external shock that made the employment contract impossible.

49:17So Chinese courts have reportedly ruled that companies cannot simply say AI can do this more cheaply, therefore we're going to fire you. So the question ultimately, the framing of this, and we've had this conversation, is if you're an employee and you can employ AI to do your job better than you, or do your job while you're working out, or do 10 times your job overnight, does the economic value of that AI's abilities accrue to the company? Or does it accrue to the employee? two different, very different outcomes for society. Or to the state. Or to the state. And by the way, we also, you know, this whole idea of UBI, does the government pay UBI?

50:06We've seen Sam Altman recently talk about the fact that no society should have a piece of the AI ecosystem. We can get into that. Who wants to take this up?

50:16Peter Diamandis:I'll just comment. There's a bit of obvious historic irony here. China has come full circle from communism to anarcho-capitalism. back to communism again. And it's maybe just a bit ironic that China is leading the world in terms of call it socialism with Chinese characteristics or communism with Chinese characteristics for how to handle AI disruption and AI disemployment. It would be an ironic, you know, under I think this falls under the category of the most ironic outcome, the most ironic outcome tends to be that the one that we live in, where China is setting global standards for how to deal with AI disruption for employment.

50:59Peter Diamandis:It's a very strange future that we live in. So, three points. One is this is clearly an artifact of the massive breakdown in the social contract. We have no idea. And the second point would be that all of our labor laws are on human labor. And as we move to AI agents, it's going to be about task management, AI coordination costs dropping radically, execution costs dropping radically, and we're looking at that. The third thing I would say is what this indicates is the broader transformation at play. You often see when you have these broad transformations, these nonsensical things that occur, it's actually an indication of the broader transformation at play.

51:40I remember Paul Sappho pointing out that the coal museum in Kentucky is using solar panels, and there's like this surreal irony around that that actually indicates there's a broad transformation in place. When we see these, it's actually a signpost that we're in for a radical transformation. And this is something we've been talking about a lot. How are we going to navigate the social contract? The very first two questions from the audience earlier were exactly about that. How do we navigate this? And this is the problem we're going to have to deal with over the next 10, 20 years.

52:12Peter Diamandis:It's really interesting to think how different China is from the United States and how how many other ways to govern there could be that we haven't explored. The variety is just mind-boggling because China is 80 % or 85 % optimistic about AI. The U.S., even in particular, is 25%, I think, optimistic and majority pessimistic. I just love the technology. I just think it's very limited compared to what you guys think. In China, they're also totally comfortable with being spied on constantly by the government. Cameras everywhere. And over here, we just don't admit it. We don't admit it, but we also don't like it.

52:50Peter Diamandis:And we may, whether or not we admit it, it's happening. But we fundamentally, at our core, hate the fact that it's happening. Can I ask you a question about this in terms of China versus the U.S.? If it's China versus the U.S., and there's really this AI war cooking that everybody seems to think there is, isn't this, didn't they just say, hey, we're not going to participate in this? Because, I mean, didn't they just tie their legs together in the middle? I mean, like. No, no, no. They're adopting AI and robotics like you wouldn't believe. Oh, no, I get that. But they're doing it not at a... Like, this is going to hamstring the speed of development.

53:22Well, the problem is they have a diminishing population, right? They're below the replacement level by a lot. And keeping people employed, keeping them having meaning and not revolting is an important part of the equation here.

53:36Peter Diamandis:And in China, people are dropping out of the workforce at an insane rate. It's a real crisis. And so if China said, you know what, no one could get fired because of AI, it wouldn't change the adoption rate much at all because they're growing with this declining workforce anyway. And so they could easily pass that law without it having a huge impact. And it would actually very, very much smooth out the societal unrest. There's also a huge, you've heard me talk about this before. I really disagree with the whole framing AI versus China versus US. Yeah, that's what I was pushing back against. I think it's a nonsensical thing.

54:10I mean, I remember spending a few months traveling around China when I was younger, and my conclusion at the end of it was that the Chinese people are so entrepreneurial natively that you need communism to put a lid on it. So you have these cultural artifacts where you actually need it to navigate and manage the population in an effective way, rather than it being some huge ideological thing. That's interesting.

54:35Peter Diamandis:You don't know how to respond to that. Did you already say that? I think we need to... I'll level the conversation. No more about grandmothers. Just up level just a little bit. Yeah, I don't buy the premise that China, through internal policies, is somehow hamstringing themselves in a race for AI supremacy against the U.S. Parenthetically, the race to AI supremacy, I think, is perfectly real. It's not fictitious. It is a real arms race. And it's a real arms race, not just for AI itself, but for what comes after AI. When we have super intelligence that's going to unlock so many I think transformative Scientific innovations discoveries and inventions and that's really what the prize is.

55:18Peter Diamandis:Yeah, we haven't seen anything yet That's right. If there's new physics for example I have financial interest in a company physical super intelligence that's working on super intelligence for unlocking new physics and new applied physics That alone is a prize worth an international arms race over and I just to the the claim or the assertion that somehow China, by introducing policies that are notionally worker-friendly in terms of AI substitution for labor is somehow hand-stringing themselves, I think it's preposterous. There are a variety of other industrialized countries, including Germany, that have policies of favoring small and medium-sized businesses when it comes to automation.

55:59Peter Diamandis:I think China, if anything, this is a way from an internal policy perspective for China to ensure a certain level of human employment while also creating state incentives top down for creating new types of jobs that are ai adjacent i don't think they're tying themselves up also they they manage the pr of ai through this like they have high enthusiasm about ai they want it to be high yeah it's no different in in some sense from our government constructing policies with the hyperscalers for requiring that hyperscalers power their or pay their own electricity supply bills no different Except it's at the consumer level rather than at the enterprise hyperscaler level.

56:39Peter Diamandis:Yeah I guess the problem is that in the US we sell ad views like a media sells ad views and the way you sell ad views is by creating Crisis and worry and it's all over your book. Yeah, you know this In China, they don't have to deal with that. So they want AI enthusiasm. They want robotics enthusiasm Guaranteeing employment is a good way to get people on board with the mission But they need the robots like you wouldn't believe because of their aging population All right, I'm going to move us forward. This story came out this week. Demis Hassabis, the CEO of DeepMind, says AGI may not need a major breakthrough.

57:16He says, I think there is a 50-50 chance we could still that we still need a breakthrough, maybe in world models. But my bet is still strongly on foundation models because of how successful they've been. Alex.

57:30Peter Diamandis:Yeah. Take away. I chatted with Demis 10 plus years ago at this point, and at the time, he thought it was five plus major breakthroughs that would be needed to achieve AGI. Now we're down to zero or one. And I don't disagree with Demis. I've argued in the past that we achieved AGI in the summer of 2020, no later then, with the discovery of, or the publication rather, of large language models or few-shot learners, which was the GPT-3 paper. we know i would argue what agi is and we know how please define it for me that's an insane statement like you know welcome welcome to moonshots it is the narrowest technology in the world you ask it to be general about anything it's dumb steven the shoes on the other foot now are you with a totally different machine than everybody else like do you have secret powers that you're getting a different ai i think we should let Let's even just self-combust to that assertion now.

58:30And I think what you meant was the seeds of AGI were born at GPT-3.

58:36Peter Diamandis:I think it's just incremental improvements after the fundamental discovery, which I think... Just like DNA and RNA and Darwinian evolution were the seeds that led eventually to humanity. It was born then and progressed. I would make maybe even a slightly stronger statement, which is the notion that general intelligence is capable of carrying out a variety of human level or near human level tasks based on the fundamental discovery, again, discovered no later than summer of 2020, that you can achieve general intelligence by taking general human knowledge and compressing it. That was the fundamental discovery underneath large language models.

59:17Peter Diamandis:We realized as a civilization, certainly no later than 2020, that you could carry out a diverse and general range of tasks with models that had compressed human knowledge. That's all that we needed. Everything else, the discovery of refinements, of transformers and everything, it's just incremental improvements to that fundamental discovery. Dave, any thoughts on this? I think that the psychology of Demis and Dario, who are research scientists at their heart, who've been working on AI their whole careers, versus Sam and Elon, who are entrepreneurs at heart, they moved over to AI. Very, very different psychology.

59:53Peter Diamandis:A lot of the research, career researchers are looking for... And by the way, they're good friends. They're good friends. And the research guys, Dario and Demis, are really good. Not Elon and Sam. Well, no, they're the worst enemies. But Dario and Sam got into the field specifically because they're worried about the future of humanity being a paradise and not being dystopian. And so they're very good natured people at their core. I think a lot of people who work in AI research, though, are looking for relevance now. Because they're like the transformer architecture that's conquering everything is so simple compared to everything they thought of and worked on for all these years.

1:00:29Peter Diamandis:And so there's a bias towards saying, God, I hope there's more to it. But when the entrepreneurs, when Sam and Elon look at it, they're like, I don't care. This can manufacture anything, can cure all disease, can take care of elderly. It can do everything we need to build a human paradise, as is. I don't care if it does the last remaining human thing. What's even the point of trying to knock off the last human doing something unique? Why are you even going after that? This morning, Yanni and I toured Lila Scientific here in Cambridge, right? And Lila is run by Jeff von Maltzen. It's an extraordinary.

1:01:08They're building what they call a scientific superintelligence. And the way that they're doing this is they've built these science factories. And we toured these factories. And what you see there is robots basically running science experiments, doing the pipetting, moving things around, picking stuff up. and their AI will propose a scientific theory and then design the experiments and then run the experiments, gather the data, update the theory, and imagine running this, you know, a hundred times faster, a thousand times faster than any graduate student. And they're mining nature for data to create these models.

1:01:47And you can just see it's about to take off. And going back to what Alex said, this is the moment in time we're about, you know, if you think the economy is going hot and heavy right now you ain't see nothing yet when you solve physics and chemistry and biology and material sciences you know, trillions are going to be a lot, hundreds of trillions are going to be a lot this is the part that gets everybody what do you mean solve? what a crazy thing is that? haven't you read our book? Go to solveeverything.org. I know, but I still think that term is problematic. Look, the part that gets everybody that watches this podcast, everybody in this room and all of us giddy excited about this, is the opportunity to use this technology to solve problems that we've never solved before, we've never even come across before.

1:02:43So that's the part that's fantastic about it. We have definitional issues, fine, but if we can solve cancer, which we'll solve pretty soon, et cetera. How can you not get excited about it? And that's the counterpoint. I mean, the number of people who have come up to me and perhaps to you guys as well saying thank you for giving us an optimistic view of the future to be hopeful for. Oh, I've got that one I got this morning.

1:03:04Peter Diamandis:Do you want me to read that? If you could read that one moment. But I just want to say thank you for the feedback, guys. We really care about it, right? I jokingly say you need to be unemployed or retired to keep up with all this stuff. working 80 hours a week. And I know all of us spend a huge amount of time. I get a daily feed every morning from... Or be non-human. Or be non-human. From Alex Skippy is just feeding me stuff. And I'll spend 30, 40 hours a week just consuming, trying to understand what's going on to make sense of it. So Dave, you want to read that message? This was just posted in the show notes by Ashley Gaunt, who's a dentist, said, Peter and the mates, I really thought I would never become an entrepreneur because I didn't have any ideas of how to turn my knowledge as a dentist into a digital business.

1:03:55Peter Diamandis:I finally did what you kept advising and brainstormed with my AI and boom, boom, all caps. Idea sorted, plans in place to make a real difference to preventative health care in general. I have no idea what the business plan is. She doesn't say. This is insane. I have gone from brainstorming an idea with AI from scratch to vibe coding a first iteration of an app and creating a business plan, which clearly defines a path from idea to monetization of a product in a single afternoon. I didn't even realize I had an idea until I started my discussion with my AI, and it just found my passion by asking a few questions.

1:04:31Peter Diamandis:And now we're prototyping. Cannot believe this. What's her name again? Ashley Gaunt. Ashley, congratulations. Thank you for sharing that. And everybody watching, again, we've had all these debates. Can anyone be an entrepreneur? And the answer is, if you've got passion, if you're willing to bring your purpose mindset and curiosity mindset and dive in, I think the answer is yes. I think the answer is yes. I think so too. I think there are a lot of people who post, you have a lot of haters out there, but they'll post, you guys are crazy. Not everybody can be an entrepreneur. But I think Ashley's story is going to be the more common story.

1:05:08Peter Diamandis:The AI can help you brainstorm and figure out your role. And also I think the big AI labs are going to start being very active in promoting things that'll help. They know where the gaps are in the training data and the market and the, you know, the apps. So they'll push out a lot of idea flow right through their AIs. All right. Also this week, my dear friend Ben Lam, the CEO of Colossal, along with George Church at Harvard Medical School, announced their sixth species. They announced the blue buck. So the blue buck's been extinct for 200 years. It was hunted to extinction. And right now they're in genome editing and lab testing.

1:05:47They expect to be able to bring back the blue buck in 2028. This is species number six out of a confidential pipeline, which is amazing, by the way, of 15, which their current species include the woolly mammoth, the thylacine, the dodo bird, the moa, the dire wolf, which is back, and the blue buck. So, Stephen, we talked about this a lot in the book, We Are As Gods. Yeah, we did. And one of the things that was a fun part of the book that you wrote was all of the future jobs that didn't exist and are coming into existence here. What are your thoughts on this story? I mean, I love this story. The only thing I wonder with the de-extinction technology is if it—I worry that it makes people think the environmental crisis is less than what it is, right?

1:06:40Species die off rates are like 12 to 1300 times greater than baseline, greater than ever before. Just because they brought five back doesn't. So that's one comment, just a random one. The one that is interesting to me is, when Ben was starting this company, the idea was, when are we going to have a Jurassic Park? And you can't really bring back dinosaurs from DNA preserved in amber, unfortunately. But so the idea of a Jurassic Park is far away. But if this is number six, what I wonder is how long until we're actually going to be able to take our kids someplace where like, look, these are 100 animals that didn't exist, you know, 20 years ago.

1:07:25And I think that's coming a lot faster. And so that's interesting to me. It is. It is. You can scale this. And right now, what are the limiting factors? it's getting access to the DNA and by the way when you're bringing back an extinct species it's not actually the extinct species it is an approximation of the extinct species you're grabbing snippets of DNA across time and you're reconstructing it okay let's they're they're hybrid creatures that have never existed before on this planet I would like to point out as three like what could go wrong. I mean, the unintended consequences here are at least, you know, worth asking about.

1:08:10Peter Diamandis:I think there's a broader program here that we're just seeing the very beginning of. If you look back at the, there were strains, I've spoken about this on the pod in the past of Russian cosmism, the Russian cosmist philosophers like Tsiolkovsky spoke about humanity's common task of taking every human who's ever lived and finding ways, using technology to bring them back to life. And I think starting with extinct species is just a special case of what technology, I do think, will enable us to do, which is to reach back into our past light cone, take every species that's ever lived, bring it back in whatever form, even if it's as a hybrid or as a computer simulation, and also reach back in time to our past light cone and take every human who's ever lived, not just at the species level, at the individual level, and computationally or using other advanced techniques, reconstruct them.

1:09:05Peter Diamandis:I think that's a far more exotic and interesting future than just Jurassic Park petting zoo for dinosaurs. Imagine bringing back every human who's ever lived. Yeah, amazing. I mean, there's kinds of conversations and imaginations that one can have in this exponential singularity that we're living in. This episode is brought to you by Blitzy, autonomous software development with infinite code context. Blitzy uses thousands of specialized AI agents that think for hours to understand enterprise scale code bases with millions of lines of code. Engineers start every development sprint with the Blitzy platform, bringing in their development requirements.

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1:10:33GLP-1s generated revenue more than OpenAI Anthropic in 2025. So Ozempic, a single peptide, a Majero, a dual-acting peptide, outperformed OpenAI and Anthropic by 2.4. Yeah, can I call bullshit on this one? Yeah, please do. I mean, talk about apples and oranges. What do these two have to compare? I mean, they're a completely orthogonal thing. Why are we bothering trying to figure this out? Both are great.

1:11:00Peter Diamandis:So I'll field that one. I think the argument goes that the GLP ones are ultimately healthspan drugs, human healthspan drugs. And so what we're seeing here, in some sense, on a single chart is a race between whether there's more revenue in enabling human actors, human labor, to be economically productive in the economy through increased healthspan on the one side, or whether capital is more efficiently and effectively invested in AI labor on the other side. And I think the outcome of these two respective curves determines whether the future light cone of our economy is ultimately dominated by AI, something that resembles AI or something that resembles biological humans.

1:11:47Biological software and digital software. Sure. All right. I mean, these drugs are biological patches on top of our existing operating system. I thought you put them on the same graph just so we could save time. That's what I thought when I saw this. It doesn't occur to me as that relevant. Well, the question is, what are people paying for? I think the broader, there's a bigger picture here, which I'll just speak to for a second, which is the huge demonetization that's taking place. There's a related story to this, which is that the number of food shipping truckloads is dropping pretty radically in the U.S.

1:12:21because people are, and the current thesis and the conclusion is that because of all the GLP-1s, People are consuming a lot less food, which is actually really great in one way, but it's going to cause some serious issues in the logistic world.

1:12:34Peter Diamandis:I think the story within the story is that both products are completely and totally sold out. They're selling as fast as they can make the product. It's just a lot easier to ramp up drug production than GPU production. Right. I mean, these companies, the GLP-1s right now, it was estimated that they could be as much as$500 billion, but they're limited by physical supply. Yep. And the same on the AI. Like any senior at MIT will tell you, I cannot live without using AI every day. I could never code again. I could never research again. I mean, I wake up in the middle of the night and talk to Skippy about some question I dreamt up and just it's there in the morning.

1:13:13I mean, honestly, we talk about three and four day work weeks. I'm doing a nine and 10 day work week right now.

1:13:20Peter Diamandis:Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's so funny that disconnect by age too. but I mean they know what they're talking about they've been using it since it was invented you cannot be productive without it so the idea that they would ever not be able to use it because there isn't any supply if they'd be like shatter earth shattering to them so they'll buy it for the rest of their lives at whatever the price is so if you add a few more graphs like this you're essentially graphing the the singularity economy if you're working out and you have a zempick you're making progress, you're inspired, you feel like you're getting somewhere.

1:13:53Peter Diamandis:Yes. Yes. When you're working with AI, the quality of happiness while you're working is astronomically higher than if you're just coding all night and coding all night is fine, too. I did it for many years. But when the AI is there and your brain, so your productivity is so high, but the energy level, it creates it's good. You don't get any dopamine from immediate feedback. But this is also the problem with AI, because when you get too much dopamine in your system, we've all been around people who do cocaine. We don't think they're geniuses. I haven't been around that many people. They think they're geniuses.

1:14:23You think. They think they're geniuses, right? You don't. This is one of the problems with mania, and this is directly in flow work. Flow produces a tremendous amount of dopamine, and dopamine produces a tremendous amount of ego inflation and a bunch of other things. So people create fast feedback loops with the AI and it feels really good. You're really high because you're hacking your biology with the AI. It's very flowy. It works really, really well. But it doesn't mean that the quality you're thinking matches the quality you're feeling.

1:14:59Peter Diamandis:It feels to me like you're having all the fun of a party while being productive and creating something useful for society. I don't see anything but good in that. I'm not saying wrong. I agree with you. I like it. What I'm saying is with that much, we have one bit of swag at my organization. Now, it's a T-shirt that says never trust the dopamine. And people make really bad decisions based upon that much dopamine in your system. I'm going to keep us going. So on the bottom of this chart here, this is Eli Lilly. They're about to announce and release something called retitrutide. It's a triple agonist peptide.

1:15:38if um if you know mongero is gpt 5.5 uh retrotrutide is agi in this the numbers are extraordinary uh this is clinical data just released i just think you should know about this so on this particular drug uh weight loss was 37 pounds uh versus six pounds in the placebo over the course of 40 weeks. Cholesterol was down 27%. Triglycerides down 41%. Liver fat down 80%. Hemoglobin A1c dropped from 7.9, which is diabetic, down to 6.0 in 40 weeks. This is being called a longevity drug. It's an extraordinary drug that is expected to be released and FDA approved by mid 2027 a lot of people are getting this from research labs already this is just some of the detailed evidence heading us towards longevity escape velocity Salim so I've been using redditru triad for the last few months well and what's incredible is the liver function because decades of damage from alcohol it's helping reverse a lot of that which is fantastic so I've never felt better I had this conversation with Demis the following weekend before we're about to see new generations of drugs coming out.

1:16:59And the speed of going from design to testing to availability is going to be accelerating. The FDA is on board for this, basically moving us from instead of phase three into an expanded phase two trial. And we just saw on this chart how much people are willing to pay, right? And it's capped not by the market, it's capped by manufacturing. And just think about it when a drug comes out that says, oh, this is going to give you 10 years of extra life, right? Or these are going to cure cancer, cardiovascular disease, inflammation. These things are coming.

1:17:40Peter Diamandis:I agree. And I also think when we speak about longevity escape velocity, which I do think is likely for the record, perhaps sometime by the early 2030s, if not earlier, I do think that the GLP-1 drug class and everything it evolves into over time, if I had to guess what is the likeliest way that LEV plays out, it is probably the GLP-1 class. And I think the economy is reflecting that. If you look at companies that are worth almost a trillion or worth more than a trillion, either right now or expected to be publicly traded in the near-term future, there are only a handful. You've got a few AI companies.

1:18:16Peter Diamandis:you have SpaceX, OpenAI, Anthropic, and then you have Eli Lilly, which has been publicly traded for a long time, but is either already at a trillion or about to cross a trillion on its present trajectory. And I think that's the market speaking very clearly that longevity drugs and AI are the obvious industries of the future. Yeah, agreed. I want to end this pod in a moonshot mate prediction conversation, which is what will AI feel like by mid-2028? I want to give you a sense of what we see as the future here. Because right now, honestly, when you think about AI, it's something that you can talk to on your phone, you type at, it's an app, it's an intelligence layer.

1:19:00But I don't feel like the majority of the world actually is experiencing AI. And I think we're about to undergo a transition where AI is going to feel very different in the next two and a half years. And I'd like to have a conversation about what you predict that to be like. I'll start with the very first one, and then we'll pass it around the room here. By the way, I wrote a substack at Peter Diamandis on this topic. You can go read my views. But the very first thing is I think we're going to give AI permission to know everything in our lives. listen to all your phone calls, watch all the cameras in your home, read your emails, read everything.

1:19:47I've just done that with Skippy. I gave Skippy access to all my Granola recordings, my WhatsApp, my iMessages, my email, my calendar, everything. And in so doing, the response is amazing. I can have interactions that this AI knows me better than anybody else. All right, so let's begin with that. Alex, you want to kick it off?

1:20:11Peter Diamandis:I almost think we're asking the wrong question here. I would like to reframe this because I think the question behind the question here is what will AI feel like to consumers by mid-2028? Yes, that's fair. And I think the past six months of industry history have taught us consumers are not actually great customers for AI, at least not state-of-the-art AI. OpenAI, infamously at this point, tried to turn consumers into power users for reasoning models and failed and has had to pivot over to enterprise. They had to basically shut down their consumer video division. They've shut down a number of other divisions in favor of co-generating models that are recursively self-improving and targeted at enterprise use cases because enterprises have the money and the desire to use advanced reasoning capabilities.

1:21:00Peter Diamandis:So the adjacent question I would ask is, what will an AI feel like to an enterprise rather than to a consumer in mid-2028? Let's make that an adjacent conversation. but you know for me as a consumer I'm going to focus on that part of the equation I feel like if AI understands me it's connected to all of my wearables incitables and so forth it has my back as a physician it knows I had a hard conversation with my spouse and I'm exhausted I did sleep well the night before. There's all this data. I walk into the room. The lights come down. There's a glass of wine waiting for me because the robot put it out.

1:21:46My favorite music is playing. My favorite comedian is on. Basically, the term I use is ambient AI and automagical AI, that the world magically adopts itself for your desires. I can tell you what I think you want to hear. What's that?

1:22:01Peter Diamandis:Which is you want to hear that mid-2028, you're going to have an AI exocortex that's a quasi-upload of you, your digital twin in the cloud that knows everything about you and your life and is fully optimizing your meat body existence, knowing what it knows about you. I think that's what you want to hear. I don't think that's actually how things are going to play out, though. Okay, please. I think what AI will feel like in 2028 from a consumer perspective, yeah, sure, we'll have better augmented reality. We'll have better robots in the streets. All of that, I think, is already essentially priced into the market.

1:22:36Peter Diamandis:What's not being priced in right now, the non-obvious insights are new scientific discoveries that consumers aren't the ones who are driving. Okay, you're taking it in parallel. So let's put that in the column of industrial, right? When Lila Scientific and Colossal are creating breakthroughs at a rate, or frankly, isomorphic labs. The question as constructed is basically what products is Apple going to launch in 2020? Because these all map onto Apple product categories. You get your smart home, you get your robots, you get your wearables of all sorts. Maybe if we're lucky, we get ingestible robots.

1:23:12Peter Diamandis:We get all of these things. But I don't think that's the essence of what AI is going to feel like to a consumer. And I don't think that's the core or the frontier. Selim, what do you think? So I agree with you on the feel-good cloud AI. I think I go more towards what Alex was talking about. The institutional use is going to be absolutely profound, and that's where we'll see the biggest difference. Every single person on Earth will essentially be operating like a small company with an incredibly powerful team around them, which are basically mostly AIs. And I think at the enterprise level, we'll be running enterprises on AI and native operating systems.

1:23:52And I think more importantly, we need to rewrite the operating system for civilization. Because everything we've done as a civilization, every business in the world for 10 ,000 years is trying to scale scarcity. And now we're moving into an era of abundance. What's the business model around that? And I think we need a complete rewrite on that because all our institutions, nations, states are all geared around scarcity. So we need a complete rewrite of the civilizational operating system. And I think the beginnings of that are starting now. Dave, what do you think 2028 is going to feel like? And I'm saying feel in particular, right?

1:24:29Because right now, a lot of people say, listen, I'm living. I see the AI numbers. I hear you on the podcast. But isn't feeling different for me as a consumer?

1:24:38Peter Diamandis:Yeah, we launched our holodeck today. You got to go check it out over at Link Studio. So we commissioned the construction of one of the rooms put monitors on all walls and You go in close the door behind you nobody tells you what to do and the AI just starts talking to you And in the holodeck you can create a virtual world you can create songs you can create movies you can just you can vibe code Whatever you want is just purely interactive and you you know big speakers, you know pulsing music and and everything around you Yeah, go check it out. I think any consumer who experiences that is going to say, no, not yet.

1:25:14Peter Diamandis:It's hard to do the real Star Trek thing. But any consumer who goes into this holodeck and experiences it is going to say, I need that. I want that. How do I get that at home? And so I think the problem in 2028 is there's going to be a massive shortfall of compute relative to the desire to have that experience. So what Alex said is dead right. The enterprise use cases have just discovered this. And they're sucking up all the data centers in the world now. And there's no way that's going to get solved by 2020 yet. I'm hoping 2030, 2031, after the TerraFab has a chance. So what's going to be the story in 2020?

1:25:55Peter Diamandis:Right now we've lived this beautiful moment in time where the very best foundation models are made available to anyone on the planet who wants to go to a website and try it. And then the cost of using the best models in the world is sort of it's very important. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got to take advantage of this moment in time because it's going to get really bottlenecked by 2028. We're about to see a brand new set of eyewear. Right. We've talked about this at length. Open AI's got their Johnny Ive device, whatever that might be. Apple's got new generations of wearables coming. Meta has generations of wearables coming.

1:26:32and this is going to be ambient AI there, where your AI sees what you see, is there listening all the time, uploading everything into your version of Skippy, your open claw, whatever it might be. And I put forward, this is going to be a different feeling, a different consumer experience, right? Which is, if you want to learn something, and you're walking down the streets of Manhattan, and you've got AR glasses that are giving you a tour of this is what it was like in 1905, here's an education layer, or if you want an entertainment layer, you know, May the 4th be with you. I'm a Star Trek person, but here we are May 4th.

1:27:13You've got, you know, these little droids popping up and shooting at you. You know, if you want, you know, whatever you want, this AI is optimizing your audiovisual experience in line with what you've asked. So I think that's going to feel different. I think we're going to see the first wearable devices enabling that. Do you guys agree, Alex?

1:27:35Peter Diamandis:I'm generally, so I'm a big fan of Werner Vingy, who wrote extensively about what the near future AR, VR metaverse, if you like, would look like. I do think we get that. I do think it's just a matter of time and battery energy densities and other progress. So by 2028, do I think we get Werner's smart glasses with compelling long life, augmented reality or mixed reality? Yeah, sure. But I also think Oh, boy. But I also don't think it matters an enormous amount. Like, yes, it'll be great and it'll be. By the way, I wanted to say something right. In the last podcast, I was trying to make our conversation relatable to the general audience.

1:28:25And my mission here about what AI is going to feel like is to support their understanding of where things are going. Yes, we also speak to the CEOs and the heads of the Frontier Labs here, but I want to give people an understanding of what their life is going to be like. I'll give a really easy projective thing. Go anywhere you want autonomously for 20 cents a mile. I'm going to do a quick speed round. here on, you know, what is something that AI will feel like in 2028 that maybe is unexpected?

1:29:02Peter Diamandis:Dave? We already spend more money on video games than all other media combined. When you overlay personalization, your own voice, and it remembers your personality, your past conversations, it's so immersive. And in a good way. It could be good or bad. It's intentional. It's designed, you know, but if it's designed well, it's so engaging and immersive. I suspect that an entire generation will have 70, 80 percent of their conversations will be with AIs and not with other people. Interesting. That's interesting. Salim. Something I'm really excited about is just infinite, perfect and long lasting memory because our memories are so flawed as human beings.

1:29:44Yes. The fact that it can record everything, recall who I met, etc. I've met many of you at events and I, God help me, I can't remember anything. So the ability to do that, I think, will be a huge addition to me as a person. Yeah. Stephen, the one that's interesting to me is I always say that you tend to hire one employee twice. You hire them when they're normal and then when they're scared. People are very, very different when they're fearful. And I think the AI coaching, the AI psychology, all that stuff, I think the coach in the room, the coach in the world is actually what's really interesting to me.

1:30:20Because I'm interested to see, I do see like, you know, I've been, even the defense department's work using AI therapy, right? I got to play with a lot of those therapists along the way. And they're remarkably good. Most people are now using AI to coach their relationships, et cetera, et cetera. But your AI coach that's actually in your ear is really interesting. because humans are, we run on four knobs, right? Valence, arousal, approach, avoid. That's pretty much humans. And you can coach them up pretty quickly in real time. So that's what's really interesting to me, is I think we end up with better humans.

1:30:58Fascinating. Alex, on the consumer side, would you ponder a vision?

1:31:03Peter Diamandis:I think we are merging with the machines. I do think augmented reality and wearables are part of the solution. I think ingestibles are going to be part of the solution. I'd be sorely disappointed if by the end of this decade, we don't have many people swallowing computers. We see the beginnings of it right now with pill-bot type form factors. I did a projection, something I think friend of the pod, Ray, would be proud of. If you extrapolate the typical size of a computer needed, this is over history, over the past 15 to 20 years, needed to achieve a gigaflop of compute, which historically, if you look back at Apple, new product announcements.

1:31:41Peter Diamandis:Apple historically has waited for new devices to pass a gigaflop before they release it. It's true with the original Apple Watch, true with the original iMac, true with the original iPhone. If you extrapolate then the typical size of a computer that at time of launch passed a gigaflop, you extrapolate that forward, you find that by not mid-28, but by the the mid-2040s, around the time Ray says we're going to hit his version of a technological singularity. The size of a computer hits approximately the size of a eukaryotic human cell. So what am I most excited about? Well, I have a laundry list, but I think if you extrapolate the progress of the size of the computers running the AIs, we're going to have cell-sized nanomachines running those AIs, and I think that'll be incredibly exciting.

1:32:29All right, everybody, and that's a wrap. We'll go to our outro music next. Ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for the incredible David Breden. Thank you. Thank you. So, we missed out.

1:32:44Alex, we did it. And Stephen Collar. If you made it to the end of this episode, which you obviously did, I consider you a moonshot mate. Every week, my moonshot mates and I spend a lot of energy and time to really deliver you the news that matters. If you're a subscriber, thank you. If you're not a subscriber yet, please consider subscribing so you get the news as it comes out. I also want to invite you to join me on my weekly newsletter called MetaTrends. I have a research team. You may not know this, but we spend the entire week looking at the MetaTrends that are impacting your family, your company, your industry, your nation.

1:33:20And I put this into a two-minute read every week. If you'd like to get access to the MetaTrends newsletter every week, go to diamandis.com slash MetaTrends. That's diamandis.com slash metatrends. Thank you again for joining us today. It's a blast for us to put this together every week.

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