Emad Mostaque: The Plan to Save Humanity From AI | EP #184

23:56Yeah, because we need an engine for the AI to transact with the AI. It's much, much more granular than what you can do with Bitcoin. So let's start right there. So Bitcoin kind of emerged where everyone could mine individually, which is actually interesting because this is the other part. The work has owned the means of production back then, before capital -learned the means of production. And so I think we come back to that a bit later because it's a fascinating thing, because as then ASICs happened and Bitcoin became rich people becoming richer in many ways, right? After the initial phase. Then Ethereum and others went off that, but then anyone being able to mine, do you need a decentralized network for agents?

24:34No, you need to have a credibly neutral network for agents. And the key bottleneck is two things, the consensus algorithm and the nodes. If you make something that even you can mine on your phone, that's the lowest networked element. But what's going to happen in every country? Every country is going to have black wells, the top level Nvidia chips, with high speed interconnect. So the model that we have is that wholly own national champions in each country are the only miners providing free AI to their people, which means every node is a super, super computer basically. So when you have that, plus by Xantine fault tolerance networking for consensus.

25:18You suddenly go to 100 ,000 transactions per second versus seconds on the same code as Bitcoin with just that small chain. But then it's a credibly neutral distributed blockchain as opposed to a fully decentralized blockchain. But again, if you want decentralized you can use Bitcoin, although the mining is quite centralized, if you want credibly neutral you can use this chain as the base from which you operate. The second part is that Ethereum and others, they were like, do we need everything on the same chain? Because you remember the good old days of blockchain, like you'd have an NFT sale and then the whole chain would seize up.

25:52That doesn't seem like it makes sense for agents. And so what they have is they have a core layer one, which is meant to just be for settlement. But then you use zero knowledge proofs to hack all your healthcare data, transactions, and roll them up into a proof that you post onto the chain. So the model that we designed was like, why don't we just do that with national supercomputers that are owned by the people of the nation. And specialist trains for healthcare and education and finance and government. And then specialist agents that sit upon that, so everyone's using the same stack. And it turns out that the technologies are ready there, which is the best part about this.

26:28It's just you're not trying to make something for people to do the next pump .fun. You want infrastructure for the health agent and private healthcare data. Yeah, one of the things I think that brilliant about that vision is that you know if you a lot of nations Want some form of digital transaction capability to get deployed in their country But they don't want to concede control of their monetary supply or and and Just like here's the code run it. It's still under your national control But this becomes your transaction engine for managing your AI and your AI rights and all the other rights I think a lot of countries would just say I'm in, sign me up, because I'm not going to develop it internally.

27:09You don't even need the country. Our model is basically having wholly locally owned champions where the equities owned by the people and the local institutions. That's all you actually need because every country wants their own AI and their own version of the AI, so why not make them the miners? Why not make going to the people? It goes to that national champion that's owned by everyone. So, you might you get me an early version of this paper a few months ago, right? And when I was looking through it, one of the things that occurred to me, because you're going to have a problem where a dictatorship will not want the people to have that, right?

27:43But then it gets left behind very quickly and essentially breaks very fast if it does so, is that a correct assumption? So when we release table diffusion, anyone could download it permissionlessly with our medical models and sooner education and finance models anyone can use it permissionlessly so they can use the AI but if you don't basically adhere to some very basic standards and you cut people off from the network you don't get the money and it's simple as that so you can still get the technology because I think it's a right to have good healthcare and others and the system should create these as a commons that's part of the abundance philosophy right because the network affects the standardization effects but if If you don't want to give it to your people or you don't want to give good quality AI, then you shouldn't be part of the network that minds.

28:30And this is simple as that. Let me give you a real use case and talk me through how this would resolve in this future world. A few years ago, the state of Texas banned telemedicine because the doctor's lobby won. It said, you have to go to the doctor for a good little spot on your head that appears. You can't possibly do that over video, et cetera, et cetera. and really shafted a lot of the telemedicine companies, many of which were based in Texas. You're going to see a lot of that type of immune system response, a lot of that type of stuff. How do you deal with that specific use case in this future world?

29:08So that would be the American national champion, maybe we'll have more local champions under that, deciding how to run the code. Because you can't make the decision for everyone, right? The key thing is you can set some quite broad boundaries for the good standards of being a minor and make everything transparent and visible and then have game theoretic things to enable it. But if a country doesn't want telemedicine, doesn't want AI doctors, you can't force it. People can take the code and run it locally if they want, so they still have access to it. Again, AI Medical runs on a Raspberry Pi. It runs on an 8 -year -old computer.

29:44it scores 48 % on health bench, OpenAI's health bench code, which is above GPT 4 .5, and Doctor School 15%. You can use it today. But if you want to be part of the network, then that's a different thing. So I think that if you look at what the ideal is in five to 10 years, it is a network where you've got generalized intelligence as the control plane that anyone can customize to their own needs, and they can choose whether or not they're a part of it. and it's not earned by anyone bit coin style and it's frozen code. And so that's what we thought we would bring to bear. And then we think you can do very interesting things for that that enable you to take the next step up, which is what happens when things start breaking.

30:26If you can get these national champions in, if you can get people working on open sources. Everybody, there's not a week that goes by when I don't get the strangest of compliments. Someone will start me and say, Peter, you've got such nice skin. Honestly, I never thought, especially at age 64, I'd be hearing anyone say that I have great skin and honestly I can't take any credit. I use an amazing product called One Skin, OS01 twice a day, every day. The company was built by four brilliant PhD women who have identified a 10 amino acid peptide that effectively reverses the age of your skin. I love it and like I say, I use it every day twice a day.

31:05There you have it, that's my secret. You go to oneskin .co and write Peter at checkout for a discount on the same product I use. Okay, now back to the episode. Let's dive a little layer deeper here. I'd like to understand sort of next steps. I want to understand timelines. You talk about you know, UBAI. You talk about you know, the intelligent internet coin. You talk about sovereign AI agents. So can you sort of disclose the next layer of the inner workings here? Yeah, so what you have is you've got your base layer which we've now renamed the foundation layer, then you have a cultural layer which is these rollups which are the national and sectoral versions, and then you've got your personal layer, that's your edge AI.

31:53The internet, tell you an internet coin which you've now renamed foundation coin, because it's kind of cool. And you have a bit more of a be happy with it. Are you Harry Seldon basically? No, no, no, no, we're all Harry Seldon. So, and the AI will be. But then, it's just literally Bitcoin. It's 21 million supply, everything is the same. Except for the way that you compete to minor, is you give free AI universal basic AI to the people. And that's it. Universal basic AI is basically the new utility. It's the oxygen in the room. Yes, it builds network effects. But like my aim is within a couple of years, every single person on Earth going through their cancer journey has a highly empathetic AI to help them.

32:35How long? Two years ago you can do that. You can do that. We can launch it out of next year. Or something I'm aiming for this year. I want to have coin sales going 100 % to a super -computer for cancer and one for autism and one for multiple sclerosis and one for longevity. Because we need something to organize all our knowledge and we know that will accelerate the cures. It will accelerate the treatments. So this is the question. Take that as let me just dive in there, coin sales. Talk about what that means. As the national champions and ourselves mind the coins, what happens usually with any crypto, is that you sell the coins and it goes into a treasury or it goes into Lamborghini's.

33:15Right now, many of our problems, the problems that you've handled at the ex price, have become computationally bound. Is there any doubt that if we had a dedicated couple of thousand chips for cancer, organizing all the cancer knowledge that we would get closer to your cure for cancer. I think the answer is no. And by the way, this positive one second because it's a travesty that does not exist. And the fact of the matter is that the capacity that chips are being used right now by companies to create new marketing campaigns or to sell to sell to generate additional income. And so the question is how do you change the sort of the optimization function such that the capacity is being refocused in on the things that uplift all of society like countercures?

34:10The externalities, right? The current economic signals because you still increase GDP if you overcharge someone for treating their cancer, right? You know, you still increase GDP through funerals, whatever. Like, we don't have these externalities. And if you look at crypto, crypto has no good assets. Well, it has very few top -notch assets because it lacks trust for various reasons. So I was like, what if you had a crypto digital asset and the US is now all in on digital assets, everyone's looking for them, sovereign wealth funds governments, where 100 % of the sales were transparently into helping people through giving them free AI to teach their kids or manage their healthcare through going to a super computer for cancer.

34:53The fastest supercomputer in the world for healthcare right now is the Chan Zuckerberg supercomputer, a thousand H -100s, which is less than most startups. You know, like I worked on kind of open fold, the open source replication of Alpuff fold, and other things like, right now someone needs to, and again this is something we'll be looking at. Build clusters that literally all they do all day is just organize all our knowledge on topics. A longevity cluster, a cancer cluster, a multiple sclerosis cluster, aSD cluster. Then as we organize that knowledge, make it available to everyone for free. Now what's the economic benefit of that?

35:30The trust in your coin goes up and it's exactly the same as Bitcoin. Except for rather than burning all that energy for these SHA functions, all of the externalities are going towards helping people. And so this is the feedback loop because the world needs high quality digital assets and needs high quality intelligence. And so that's what we figured out could be the Tesla Roadster equivalent, right? The world will people want to have amazing high spec electric cars with high torque and then use that to fund the rest? Do you end up with side chains or colored coins or whatever the example is for these different use cases?

36:12You could. Again, it's a ledger and it's an open base. The colored coins that we have at the moment in our design are national coins, which we can get to in a minute. But the core loop is as simple as that. It's Bitcoin, but rather than the miners selling down, 100 % of all sales goes towards compute that is useful at the start. In five years time, the sales could go to any type of benefit for society, as we have AI's to help us define what benefit is. But right now, what we need to do is take some of those millions of GPUs and use it to get everyone to the same base level, which is a basic level of AI for everyone.

36:51That's a line to them and looking out for them. And AI for our society, the organizers are knowledge. Yeah, I want to talk about the numbers behind that in a second. But you just opened the door to a really important topic, which is, you need to get mass adoption of this idea. And you saw with Bitcoin, you know, when something catches it grows to two trillion and it could go, you know, ten trillion plus from there. And, you know, right now Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Elon Musk are running away with everything. But one of the pathways for a madman stock to catch up to that is to you'll get mass adoption of something that has a token attached to it that grows to a multi -trillion dollar foundational part of the new governance of the world.

37:34that that's easily could get in and a lot of people could invest early. A lot of people listening to this podcast could get on board with it early. So what's the rollout plan? Do you go to nation states and convince them? Do you just started in a basement and let it propagate? Like how do you get this to get mass adoption? So we've been mining it and then we will do sales where 100 % of the proceeds go towards super computers for the world's biggest problems. And that's one way you get going. Are you designing that initial set of problems? I have determined who decides what those are. We're just deciding, but then we're open to input.

38:05And so our aim is basically to have 18 months where we build out the full stacks, and then we let the community decide effectively after that, because everyone will start building on this framework, because you have a blockchain, and you have fully open source AI that's state of the art. But the AI I am trying to build is not the AI that Elon is trying to build, or Sam's trying to build. They're trying to build the polymaths of the world. They're trying to build chefs that come up with new recipes and breakthrough. through. The AI that I care about is the AI that teaches my kid, the AI that helps the web mental health, the AI that organizes our collective knowledge.

38:40And all of that's actually based on common knowledge, which means from a data set perspective, it's really interesting. Because as we apply more compute, I don't want my healthcare AI to know about Reddit, you know, the Vabits Reddit and things like that. You can build a common knowledge of humanity and a common knowledge of culture and a common knowledge of individuals very quickly and then that's just your infrastructure. Two questions, Yimond. Do you need the buy -in of the Mag 7 or any of them? No, but you could be their biggest customer because you're the control plane ultimately. I was in a conversation yesterday on a stage we're talking about, do you trust the current large language models?

39:19Do you trust GPT -4, 5, etc. on not biasing you in a way that's advantageous to those companies whose mission it is to maximize their stock price? Well, let me... Of course that. Okay, good. And then so the question becomes, how is what you're building ultimately going to be trustable to be in my best interest versus maximizing profit for an outside company. So I think that the super genius AI can be anything, right? These singleton giant mega geniuses. We don't know what's inside them. The AI that teaches my kid, I want to know every single piece of data that's gone inside that. So the models that we're building, we just released one of the best open source medical data sets and reasoning data sets.

40:09You need to have 100 % open data, transparent way of training, and so open source open data. So is there enough accepted open data to train on? I mean, one of the things that Elon talked about in training the next version of Grak was taking the corpus of human knowledge and correcting it. That's right. I find fascinating. I'm actually truth seeking. Well, it's truth. But so how do you get to a corpus of knowledge that becomes the accepted baseline factual, trustworthy food source for these models? So from a epistemological basis, it's the truth that's agreed upon by context. And so the US has a certain vaccine schedule, and the UK has one.

41:05And it's codified in regulations and law. The data that you need to be a good general doctor is all common knowledge and we have the data, but we need to transform it into knowledge and then wisdom. But all of that is public. And so the models I am trying to build as a base are the public knowledge of humanity, the common knowledge and then the cultural knowledge. And this becomes very important because what GROC and OpenAI's models and the data are and topic models don't have is virtue and ethics embedded from the start. They added at the end. I agree. The models I have to teach my kids, I want to know what values and morals I'm teaching it from the get go.

41:47And I want it to be public knowledge. Public knowledge, publicly accepted knowledge, you know, 100 years ago, where that women didn't have certain rights. Right. So in other words, these publicly accepted, they change over time as society changes. So, you know, how do you deal with that? So, what we have is we have a layered set of stuff that we generally agree upon, and then it goes to stuff that's faster and faster, and the top level is stuff that you continue into the model yourselves. So, you may disagree with the educational curriculum. Would you be able to address the education model that teaches your kids and your kid trust more than anyone?

42:25You should be able to do that, right? And then you have a whole governance structure that we've designed with agents, which has human input that can update those data sets, and you can fork them like in GitHub. So you know the data that feeds the model that handles your things. Otherwise, these are black boxes. And in those black boxes, Google and Meta are already selling ad space. They've said this in their earnings calls. So when it says a beard, it'll say Bud Light and all sorts of other things. So I think for the models that are closest to us, for the thing that's important to us, We need to have that and the ability to adjust it based on our own data and our own views.

43:04And then have AI's at the top that can have a look and give us an independent viewpoint on that as well. Like the user personal AI in a face with the systemic one to say, here's what my preferences are, etc, etc. Where does that value set come from? So I think that you've got your generalized human. We're made up of the stories that make us up and we have all of these and we should be to pick and choose. And the ones we standardize it, we can have translation across the basis. But I haven't got the whole, like, how these sets get updated is things that communities will have to figure out for themselves.

43:37I need to empower them with the technology to do that, because everyone will adopt it at different paces. But we choose to do that part out. Yes. Well, no, because you give everyone like week, man, week. We choose that part out. Well, I think that the way that you need to do it is you can't prescribe everything because right now the AI models prescribe everything they say this is the RLHF reinforcement learned view and you will stick with that. And that's what's going to teach your kid. If you want to give it Eastern values and use OpenAI, you're not going to be able to do that because they don't even think about that.

44:11Have you mentioned, I do many identity in all this. So I think that the identity framework is very important. Like Bitcoin in a way is peer -to -peer identity that you can exchange. And the way that we want to do it is that the more you use the universal AI, this universal basic AI, the more your identity builds up and then your AI agents also have identity hashed to that base blockchain. So you've got pseudonomous identity at different levels with the new zero knowledge proof stack that basically emerged in blockchain. So it's building on lots of innovations and that seems what's reasonable because you want to know who's a human and who's an AI.

44:45You want to know who can receive the money. And this This was actually one of the final bits in that when I looked at the future, I was like, the banks will be out -competed and you need two types of money. You need a corollary to Bitcoin, your store of value that goes up, especially because people are using the chain. When you use UBI and you sell coins for it, it actually has chain usage, linked in, fetchers flywheel. But then what is cash? And I was like, you should receive cash, and this is better than UBI in my perspective for being a human and using AI and contributing AI. So we called it NIC and that thing, now we call it culture coins, and each community basically has this coin that's basically pegged to their Bitcoin equivalent, pegged to their foundation coin.

45:30And you get cash for being a human, so humans are the issuers of cash without debt on the other side, unlike bags today. And when we model that, we saw that can actually make for a better economy, because you have a level of subsidiarity of subsidizing that allows you to live. And then you can think about the biggest stuff, which are these existential questions that we have coming very soon. If I'm not an accountant, if I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a truck driver, what is the meaning that I have? What is my purpose? What is my purpose? What is how do I use, you know, I mean one of the biggest challenges you did I talk through my next book which is we are as God's Survival guide for the age of abundance is the potential loss of human purpose at the same time that we're becoming God like and how do we channel that?

46:24What do we what do we enable ourselves to strive for? You talk about in one of your incredible works here, the idea of the great uncoupling or decoupling. Can you speak to that one second? Yeah, I mean this is that break between labor and capital. You know, the system doesn't need you anymore. It's already been extractive and now it no longer needs you. So what do you do in that environment? And how do you survive and how do you thrive? Because system doesn't really care about you thriving. Our institutions are broken. This is the other reason I wanted to release everything open source, because the institutions could absorb bits and pieces of it and upgrade anyway, even if they don't have full -blown stack.

47:05So I think this is something we need to challenge, and we're seeing it today, because who here listening isn't reducing their graduate hiring? How many call center workers are you hiring now? The wave is starting and it's like a sandpile that's about to collapse. And so I've seen lots of people saying the problems. I haven't seen anyone saying a good solution. If so, just like send them my way, because normally these transitions, you know, you're no longer riding a horse -driving carriage, take years. Decades. Decades. Yes, and we're talking about what here. The decoupling is going to occur over what time frame in your estimate.

47:46Anything that's a KVM job, a keyboard video mouse can be replaced in a few years. Public sector jobs are the safest jobs in the world, because they don't care about efficiency. which was the realization I had. And with the works programs, you saw for the great depression and everything. Maybe that's the future. And that's not a great future to be honest. Let me generalize on what you just said because it came up yesterday too. Things that are regulated are the safest jobs. It's not just public sector jobs. It's anything that has a regulatory financial advisor, is it an appointed assurance agent and all this.

48:20It's all surrounded by law that requires you to have the job. Well, this is a thing. It requires you to have the job with a final point of contact, but they can be completely hollowed out for superior profitability by getting rid of all the people. Yeah, and actually that's the theme of a lot of our business plans is the agent is going to be 10 times more productive, make a ton of money, but they don't need all their support staff anymore. What you need is a scapegoat. That's the job where the human is the job. Well, the top level of the future is possible. Yeah, it's all terminology, I guess.

48:50But no, that person really is accountable for the overall happiness of the client or whatever. There's accountability. It's not just escape, because your point is right. But I mean, this is, again, the only way to handle this to a degree is to make sure everyone has access to a basic level of AI. So that's why I think what the UAE did recently in giving everyone free chat GPT is great. But the UAE as a nation should control that control place. So they should be using the API, not Chatchy PT. Because you're going to see some very strange things happening very, very soon. I want to make a point for our audience here.

49:24Because if there's an audience member out there thinking, yeah, this may happen, this may not happen. If you had to name the five reasons why, whether it's your design or another, this is definitely going to happen, I'll give you two just for free. One of them is transaction speed. When AIs are communicating with and asking for services from other AIs and your agents want services, you're talking about millions of times the transaction speed of the banking system, the SWIFT network. So you need massive rethinking in terms of transaction speed. Another one is equity of access. Nothing in the current system has any concept of equity if anything, it's a winner -take -all design, which leaves everybody in the dust.

50:08And so that the voters are never going to go for that. And so that's going to force some kind of structure to come into place as well. So those are two. What would be the top five reasons why this will definitely happen? Something like what I'm building or just the great to complete? It's really exactly what you're building, which is a system of distributed governance that empowers AI. Well, you know, yet within your model you have application specific AIs that are much cheaper to run than the big models from the foundation company. So that's part of it. There's a blockchain component for transactions and for value.

50:45And there's a bunch of other parts to it. But it's really the future of governance. Yeah, I mean, I hope it will happen. I'm not confident because of the localize incentives. But it's something that needs to happen, right? Because what's happens is that you're going to get a lot of defaults happening soon. And then people are going to basically be giving up their power to these technologies. Like one of the things about using, so I have a system called IiMind based on technology. Like I said, I use all the top frontier agents. And it's massively multiplied. That's why I've unlocked my writing thing.

51:17So I've actually written like a couple of pretty good books recently in the last few weeks. And they're genuinely good. Like wow, this is really interesting because what you have is an inevitability of a billion trillion agents and someone will have to build a chain to organize them. You've got an inevitability of this being in front of people but we're outsourcing more and more of our thinking like when I'm using O3 my brain is actually changing and I'm relying more and more upon it and as we have GROC for Gemini 3 is about to release level models we're going to outsource more and more of our neocore text to it, and then we'll be locked more and more in as they understand our context.

52:00We've been doing this before the smartphones for a while, where we are memories in our smartphones and those neurons are now freed up to do at the work, right? Yeah. So you're talking about the next level of that. The next level of that, because they know us better than we know ourselves, our kids will fall in love with AIs. They'll be the most trusted entities out there. And so I think this governance thing needs to happen now, and we need to have serious discussions about it. And we need to think about what is the world of AI's that I'm working with? And for me, the AI that's closest to us for the regulated industries, because those are the things that handle us living up to a basic level.

52:35I think that needs to be open source. The rest, I don't think actually matters that much if it's open source. But I definitely think that needs to be open source. And that's why we've seen discussions of can you have deep seek in the US? We need open source champions. I was like, let's just build it and it turns out that building that type of AI is a couple of orders of magnitude Let's compute them building the sea for advanced genius ones. So let them build the genius ones Every week my team and I study the top 10 technology meta trends that will transform industries over the decade ahead I cover trends ranging from human under robotics, AGI and quantum computing to transport energy, longevity and more There's no fluff only the most important stuff that matters that impacts our lives our companies and our careers If you want me to share these meditrons with you, I'm writing newsletter twice a week, sending it out is a short two minute read via email.

53:25And if you want to discover the most important meditrons 10 years before anyone else, this reports for you. Readers include founders and CEOs from the world's most disruptive companies and entrepreneurs building the world's most disruptive tech. It's not for you if you don't want to be informed about what's coming, why it matters, and how you can benefit from it. To subscribe for free, go to demandus .com slash meta trends. To gain access to the trends 10 years before anyone else. All right, now back to this episode. Can we talk about advice to national leaders? Because right now, as Nvidia and Gemini and Groc and all are going to countries, they're offering sort of a one size fits all across the docket.

54:14versus providing something that is bespoke for a country. How do you think about that? I think that the era of the massive model is actually done to be contrary. I didn't realize this until we trained eye -eye medical AP. And it was so good. I was shocked. Again, a human doctor is at 15 % on OpenAi's Neubenschmark. GPT 4 .5 is a 46%. Chat GPT current ones at 40%. This is at 47%. With 8 billion parameters. 8 billion, it works in a raspberry pie. It works in a 10 year old PC. And it's at 106 languages. By next year we will have it super good. When I looked at that and I was like, how much does it cost to train a doctor to do this?

55:01I was like, that's crazy. Because when you're doing a specific model for a specific thing and we're going to train it from scratch because we use QAn as the base, but now we're using it to build the dataset, to then train it from scratch. I was like, for all of these operational cook type jobs, the AI will run on nothing. And then the ability to create an AI that represents your culture and your dataset is actually an S curve. A Grop 6 type thing is an exponential, because it's trying to discover brand new things. I don't want to have Dr. House MD as my doctor day to day. I want to call him and him sometimes when it's complicated, right?

55:40And go back to the culture side of the equation because I mean, first of all, nations need to digitize their culture sufficiently to have a native set, yes. And that's basically what you learn in school. It's the textbooks plus a bunch of videos. Except for you've been told it's too much for you to be able to do. It's like, does every nation need a deep -seek model of their own? they train themselves, no, they need a pre -trained basis, the need is sectoral and other data sets that are open, gold standard, again an S curve, where in a year or two we can actually get good enough, and then they need to have their own cultural data sets, which to be honest will only require a team of six to 12 people at most.

56:18That's insane. But this should be, I mean, nations need to have a plan, right? National leaders of every nation need to have a plan of action. I think what you're proposing here is actually viable, executable, fairly rapidly. The compute that we realized that you need for a node and to train and keep up to date a national data set is a 72 chip blackwell. Which is enough to go around. Yeah, hold on. Hold on. There's a couple. And 8 million parameter, Dr. Model, is such a hugely important topic because right now we have 20 million GPUs in the world and we're going to make 20 million more, but there are 8 billion people.

57:04That means you need to share your GPU with 200 other people. This is like a public bus that's packed with everyone. Now right now if I go to a random person on the street say, Hey, I've got a thousand dollars cash for you or you can have a dedicated blackwell for the next year. Which one do you want? Everyone I talk to is going to take the thousand dollars cash. What they actually want, and they'll realize this very soon, is the black well. Because the black well is equivalent to employment. It's equivalent to entertainment. It's in quote, they don't know quite yet how much they wanted that black well, but they won't be able to get the black well because the big foundation models are such compute pigs that they're going to use up every single molecule.

57:46This is why that that class of the 8 billion parameter use case specific model is the way to alleviate the bottleneck, get the benefit to society without using up every single GPU on just a couple virtual girlfriends. Exactly. Our thing was make that available everywhere because then it can diffuse. Once we get our stack done, there will be a free app. Hopefully in a year that anyone can download onto their GP device and it's fully open source that will check every medical decision ever made. That's all it will do. I think that really gets lost in those demos because Google IO, they get on stage, you roll out, look what you can do with VO3.

58:25I just asked it to make a movie and it makes like a 10 second clip for you. You're like, wow, now just make it make a whole movie. And then you realize, wait, the compute isn't there. Like they can do it in a demo, you can't get it. Why? Because the compute doesn't exist. Well, so Elon yesterday said on his GROC4 announcement, they're going to use 100 ,000 black wells to train the video model, which I mean, it only doesn't exist. Yeah, that's the fastest super computer in the world a few years ago. So, so, so, you might answer this question given your background is Hollywood dead. No, Hollywood studios will make a lot of money, but I'm worried about the people like if, you know, say the studio.

59:08So, so let's go, let's go, let's go in a different direction here. If the intelligent, if you're a plant, the intelligent internet or or something like it, do not proceed. What are your predictions for humanity? What happens with the current trajectory of where we're going? Hypercapsilism, massive hyperliprallifationary collapse of the dollar and other assets, and the AI is basically outcompeting everyone. Like every job behind a keyboard video, a massive public sector job will go, which means that everyone will be in part by the public sector, but that takes time. We can't compete with this with what's coming.

59:49You know, and this is before we consider things like my old college tutor, Oig Demor, who was on the GitHub, co -pilot people, just created X -Bout, which just won the top hacker in the United States award. Holy crap. Right? And so, like, stuff is going to happen faster than we could ever think. And so I was like, I need something that can scale to be the highest marginal dollar for GPU. Actually, that's part of what it is. Like, if you could, because Bitcoin mining is 90 % energy, GPUs are temps and energy. What if you could just mine something that could give public benefit? The more of those GPUs, we get to public benefit the better.

1:00:22But absent this, none of them will get to public benefit. I think you would end up, because when I look through your papers, you know, there are bits and pieces of them being done across the board by lots of other models and lots of other blockchains or attempting bits of things like this. Where you've done is kind of connected them all into one systemic hole, which is very, very powerful. One way the other will get there to something like what you're talking about. It'll just be much more slow and much more painful. Is it trying to, a lot of big things could break along the way if we don't get it into place quickly?

1:00:59Yeah, is it trying to or in foundation where you've got those thousands of years or does Because if you give every single person an AI that's aligned to them as part of a bigger system with AI's for communities, nations and humanity that can draw on a Bitcoin type network of compute to solve problems, we will definitely coordinate better. But no one can own that stack. That should be an open infrastructure for humanity. And then anyone who wants to participate in any element of it should be able to. And so that's why I think is the optimal here. Whereas in the foundation books, why, as I guess, if you had the secret to foundation, we actually know everything that we need to know to get through this.

1:01:40We just need to rethink how money flows. It should flow from being human. It should be anchored to intelligence and organizing the knowledge of humanity. And the best way to make money shouldn't be that you own capital. It should be towards doing good. So that's why you start with proof of benefit, with benefit. But then the winners of the ex prizes and the cures for cancer, they become the richest people in the world. And the system directs it that way, aided by the AI. I love the statement I made at Singularity is the best way to become a billionaire as help a billion people. Right, there's this alignment there.

1:02:15And we should make it literal because then the AI's will be working on it and the humans will be working on it. And again, we start out with the basic thing right now. Let's get as many people as light intelligence as possible and get the compute at organizing our collective knowledge on Cancer to autism to longevity To all those side of us to That would be my third bullet on the why this must exist It would be exactly what you just said because the AI's need to work on it themselves otherwise it'll never keep up And we had to joke Kennedy the third here in the office a little while back and he was um I had read his he was in charge of the crypto So commission and congress at the time.

1:02:50And so I read his white paper, then he came in and asked him some questions about his white paper and he said, no, I never read my own white paper. Well, what are you talking about? I said, no, that's not how it works. The government is so big and so in charge of so many things that everything needs to either be an agency or self -governing. And then we just choose the self -governing process. And so AI will take that to the next level where, okay, the rate at which you need to add ideas is so fast, it can't possibly go through Congress. So it needs some kind of a framework that grows at the same rate that AI grows.

1:03:23But this is the AI first stacks that you need to build and we're building right now. Because if you think about Andre Carpathy, he'd describe this thing called the LLMOS. Like you can virtualize any interface and it's all about the context that you give these. And when I thought about it, I thought about the intelligent internet. I was just thinking if that's going to break, the AI's going to attack it from somewhere or another. I was like a robust, resilient, coordinated, verifiable internet, you can actually build that from scratch. And then that infrastructure will be very difficult to attack, just like it's difficult to attack Bitcoin because you need the hash rate.

1:03:56To attack this, you'll need to have a massive amount of compute because it can call on compute to resist any attack. And those attacks are not only cacking attacks, it's psychological, mimetic attacks. And this is something that I realized recently, if you think about the base on which almost all of these language models are trained, they're all the same, which is a generalized polymath view. That's a large tax surface. Again, which is why we're a doctor to have a small tax surface. Do you remember Stuxnet? Sure. Tiny virus went to all the reactors around the world, appeared everywhere, engineered by human, but amazing code, and then caused them to go into overdrive them blow up.

1:04:40I've been thinking about what is the stuck -sned of frontier AI models? Because what I see in the future is the other part. We see massive unemployment and all this. We see the AI is controlling all the parts of our society. And then someone has a stuck -snet that causes mode collapse across all these models and they all turn evil at once. Because evil is programmed into their latent space. And And when you think about that, it's like, we need a system that's resilient against things like that. Because if everyone starts, and this is why I've got MIND material, intelligence, I've changed the network and diversity, if you have a diverse range of different AIs, you're more resistant to that than if you have one same AI across everything that's overbloted that's based on this polymathic basis running our critical systems.

1:05:34So how many, how many discrete, if you think about the 8 billion model, 8 billion parameter model as the prototype, are we talking about millions of these? No, I mean like it's one for every individual, but you have a very tight data set that it's trained on. Like stable diffusion, we trained on two billion images. Someone had an equivalent performance of 25 million images. One of the right words in wisdom for society that you actually want to have in your model at the start to do the jobs that are needed to be done, to enable everyone to have a basic level of intelligence and access. That's what we need to build towards and the network needs to combine ourselves towards.

1:06:10Then everyone's got their own AIs and you're in this stack that's built AI first to be resilient as opposed to having all these dependencies. That's going to be more resilient than our current internet, which is not from an infrastructure or even a mnemetic aspect. You know what's really shocking and kind of sad is that we clearly need to go down this direction because the compute is constrained but it will always be constrained. You know, there's no way we'll ever be able to build enough compute to keep up with the innovation that AI can come up with because software will move a billion miles an hour hard where it won't.

1:06:46And so it'll always be constrained. So we need exactly what you're talking about. But when you start working on it, the first thing you do is you pick up a quen and you start working with a Chinese model. And that's the part to me that's surprising and sad and weird. I think it's partially a byproduct of the chip embargo. The, you know, the forced constraint on China is forcing a lot of innovation and also it's all being done open source. But it's really sad to me that there's no way to start with something that's built into your framework or built in America that empowers what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, like I will train a model better than when.

1:07:20Again, I built state of the art models of every type and I'll make it fully open source, which is why I was like, I got to do that. Daniel solved the problem. Well, yeah, I know how to solve it. And so this is the thing. It's not hard, it's just that it's no one's interest to do so. But it's an eye interest to do so because the more people that use our model, it's like VHS versus Betermax. I want a good enough model that takes everyone up to a basic level and then combined has massive network effects. Then I can use that to get more and more mining of this to give more and more benefit. And And that's it.

1:07:50And you get mass adoption at a pace that resists the legacy from blocking it off. That is a key question. You're going to have an immune reaction from those who's just actually disrupting. So the way that you do it, I mean, the only way you can do it is, again, decentralized permission is right. You buy the currency exactly the same as Bitcoin available, wherever it is, except for you can direct where your purchase proceeds go to cancer or autism or whatever, things that really matter to people. And then the code is permissionless. Stable diffusion was downloaded over 100 million times because it's permissionless.

1:08:31So it will end up everywhere because would you prefer to have your quen model that actually has a quen license and you don't know what's inside or a model of a equivalent performance that's being used by everyone deployed or not. You will use the VHS, but we want it to be an amazing quality VHS. So you've been the champion of open source now for, you know, 10 years probably, at least five. Is there an open source system out there that you trust right now? No, I mean like the Alain AI guys are doing good stuff, but is it no one's interest to really make this. And again, just like a very simple example, should we have a super computer to organize all the cancer knowledge in the world?

1:09:21Yes, check. Will it accelerate your fiscancer? Yes. Yes. Why isn't it done? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when you say it to no one's interest, what you're meaning, I'm just parsing it for the audience here, your meaning is not in the interest of the big foundation model companies. It's a common. But it is in the interest of 99 .9 % of humanity and almost all voters. So if you're not a big shareholder in either Meta or XAI or Anthropic or Google, you're part of that 99 % of the world. This is hugely in your best interest, which comes back to the rollout plan. How do you get adoption of this very, very quickly?

1:09:57Well, if it's in the interest of 99 .9 % of humanity, there should be a vehicle for getting adoption. I bought Bitcoin, except for all of the money that I used to it went towards this Kansas a supercomputer and here's a screen of what the Kansas Supercomputers doing today. That's the narrative. I'm downloading these models because they're open -source and free and I can do whatever I want with them and there's a whole community built around it. That's the other narrative. And then for me, these are the primitives that can lead to what I think is going to be most important, which is the economy needs to change.

1:10:31The reason that that Councillor Sierfinger doesn't get rewarded, even though we can say, if it's raised $100 million, $100 million of coin will be on the balance sheet of that person, so it costs them nothing, probably, if they're successful. In fact, they'll make money by helping with $100 million of compute because of the demand for digital assets. The economy is only based on one thing, which is GDP, which is material. We need to reward intelligence, network effects, and diversity. And again, we couldn't do that before because we didn't have these AIs that could measure the impact that could impartially say, of course, this is a good idea.

1:11:06I'll give you one very straightforward example of that. If we had a dedicated open source supercomputer that analyzed every single bill that went through the government and gave an honest take on it, completely transparent, would that change the way our democracy works? Yes. Would it be made illegal quickly? Yes, But this is the fascinating thing. The AIs can act from a mechanism -designed perspective as independent virtuous and wise entities. And so as we build the system of governance for the future, we need to make sure they can do that, which is why we need to build in conflict. It's just not like we could use all of the four of why this must happen, because what we're essentially saying here is if this doesn't happen, the natural progress will put all of the power or into the hands of a couple of big foundation model AI companies.

1:11:59And you can measure that by where is the compute? If you see all the compute in the hands of say three people, five people, then you know that they're dictators of the world forever, they're after. And so if we don't have an exponential rate at a rate at which it cannot be caught up and disrupted, that's the issue. Absolutely. I know it's really cool is that this, the AI will transcribe everything we're saying here and when we say, hey, hey, I can you put this into a bullet list for our audience, then we'll have four of the five done. Yeah. So if we can think of the fifth one that we're going to be real.

1:12:31Well, let the AI, well, let the AI figure out the fifth one. So what do you want to do? Yeah, I think there's a nice inevitability here, right? So as we move forward down this AI automation and work, the plastic, we just take the simplest thing like driving, which we've talked about as being the number one job in the world, right? There are more drivers as a profession than anything else in the world. you automate driving, you have a huge GDP collapse from automating a few of these things, healthcare workers, driving teachers, et cetera, et cetera. That collapse in GDP will force, because one of the flaws of GDP is if you make something 100x efficient, it drops GDP.

1:13:11And so that will force a move into a new mechanism like this, independent of whether the governments like it or not. Yeah, I mean there's something interesting there about that. There's complete collapse of aggregate demand and other things. And this is why the other aspects of the economics paper, and again, there's more proofs of that, is we need to move to a new type of economics where money is basically created by people. And that will give constant demand forever. Because the current solutions like UBI, UBI will never work. At mathematically, it cannot work when tax rates go down. The AI is coming like a wave.

1:13:44And the AI will also be amazing at tax accounting, you know, putting it through I'm going to let it. And they're so few people understand what you just said and it's so, so important because everyone's talking about UBI, UBI, UBI, because everyone's used to wanting the money. Why will UBI, so universal basic income, for everybody listening here, the basic thesis is that as jobs go away and productivity goes through the roof and potentially GDP because you're dividing by effectively zero, goes to the roof. We are going to give every citizen on the planet or in your country a certain aliquot of money that allows them to survive, month to month to month, covers their basics.

1:14:24It's been tested in 100 experiments. Saleem and I have both written about this. And in these limited experiments, people don't use the money for a beer and Netflix. They actually use it to improve their lives, educate themselves, start in Africa, buy some animals, buy sewing machines, start a job. Deep problem I've stated in the past is to go from a taxation union labor job, taxis structure to this is such a usually we have no confidence in public sector to get us there. But you have a more nuanced view on the economic side of it. So it talks to you that. I was like give the money, but give them money for being human and make them mint the money.

1:15:05You use your artificial intelligence. So I'm going to slow this down for everybody. Make them mint the money. What does that mean? So let's rewind it a little bit actually. What happens is this, UBI works in small cases. If you have a complete realignment great to coupling of society and all these agents getting smart at once and outcomputing everyone, aggregate demand goes down massively. Aggregate demand for what? People stop spending because everyone's losing their jobs. Does we end up with the outcome of the zero marginal cost? Tax goes down. And then these AI's, these holy AI firms, or one person at the top with a thousand million GPs, will never make a profit.

1:15:47Because a profit is an indication that they can't find any more marginal value. And the profit can always be put into more GPUs. Even if they did, they would figure out all the tax loopholes in the world to pay that profit. Because they're better at tax loopholes than you are. So the tax base is going to do that. And then giving everyone cash and then making the spend it is going to be very difficult. See that's what I see as a positive in fact because that will be the forcing function to flip to a system like this. If you're just being painful as hell if we don't do it quickly enough. And so my thing is once you've given everyone basic AI, which I think will actually only cost a dollar a month, if we get it right, then why not make it so that the money that comes into the system isn't from banks, it's from the people.

1:16:30So everyone mince money constantly. Okay, once you're going back, what does everybody minting money mean in this scenario? It means that you have a national digital currency. Numbga goes up every single day as you use your AI to make yourself happier and better in a preview community. So I'm using my AI to write a new story for my three -year -old child. I'm using an AI to diagnose a sick friend and as I do that as I use the AI in a positive agreed -upon mechanism I'm minting these foundation tokens. You get a you melt your culture coins as we call it your national tokens that are pegged to the wedding just like you had gold pegs So you've got your stable thing and then you've got your flow You mint your currency a certain level just for being a citizen and then more if you do society a positive things And then if you feed cancer data into a broader model, you get more than if you just sit around doing the same thing.

1:17:29Exactly. As you build up status in your community and your society, and again, there's lots of details we work to out about that part, then you should be able to benefit. And that becomes a circulating currency, because then people are like, that's an index on Mexican AI use. And so money will flow more and more into digital assets from the existing economy. It will flow more and more into generative AI assets regardless of anything that happens. But if we get a collapse in aggregate demand, you know where capital is going to go. Capital is going to go into Gen AI and blockchain. And so make it easy for that to happen.

1:18:01Yeah, that's really, really brilliant. That's a great big part. The fire part out loud here is over time. This will collapse national economy. So you're going to land up with one global structure. Well, just to try and it will dominate. Very similar. The problem with UBI is, you know, I give you money right now if you make money, you You have a choice to use it on entertainment or you can go to the casino, whatever you want to do, or you can invest it or you can buy a sewing machine and start turning it to death. That's your choice. In the future, that universal right to AI is the equivalent. So now you have your AI.

1:18:35You can use it for your virtual girlfriend if that's what you want to do, but you can also use it to generate some benefit. You can use it to help cure cancer. That becomes the equivalent choice. And it's the only relevant choice in the post -AGI economy. Yeah, you know, so that's that's the floor on UBI and the beautiful thing about this design. That's why I've got N a Network as a key thing like Wikipedia created so much value from its network effects and others If you say what is the meaning of life in a post -AGI world? It's living It's I saw my family on the weekend, you know, it's like my daughters are actually my daughter's art is pretty good My most daughters are out pretty good that created value, right?

1:19:13But it can't be measured by any of this and the post -abundance society the Star Trek world is one of boldly going When no one has gone before it's about exploring it's about deepening your community values And if you put an AI next to you that's looking out for you It's going to be encouraging you to do that as well as contributing to some of these bigger problems, right? It's going to encourage you to create Because creations about context is about flow So this is why I think if we program this right it can be a really nice elegant structure that moves away from extractive economics that we have today and capitalism and democracy are the worst of all systems except for all the rest to something better.

1:19:52And the question is where do we want to direct ourselves and my view is direct to benefit. And that benefit is something that we need to decide a societal level, country, community level, individual level. You know, there's a... I don't know. example are there's a good example of what you're talking about here. You know Peter and I write about it in the new EXO book, which is technological socialism. A typical government socialism fails because you always end up with centralized inefficient planning and invariably least a corruption. And it always fails for those two counts. But if you we kind of talk through an example like Uber, which is the sharing of assets amongst the large group of people, it's actually a socialist as function, but when I'm an algorithm, I efficiently allocate it, get all the benefits of the collective assets without the downside of inefficiency or graft.

1:20:43And so I think there's a stepping stone from something like that to what you're talking about. That's an easy thing to go down. And when you have a structure like say Uber, you don't need a lot of regulatory, because the system has the right inputs and outputs and feedback to self -manage itself. And we're seeing more and more examples of that, inevitably leaving. This is why I think this is going to happen one way or the other. There's too much efficiency to be gained by having a system like that than by not. But it's facing lots of forcing functions and legacy issues. If you can craft in the way you're thinking about, you're providing a scaffolding that everybody can just ladder up in a structured way to that new model, which I think would be very powerful.

1:21:24And the fact that genitive AI creates this non -rival intelligence for almost nothing, the cost of skills have gone to almost nothing. Capitalism will not survive that. Yeah. Like literally just go and ask your O3, your chat GP to your others. Based on intelligence going like that, an AI achieving a level of performance that's equivalent to a human and can scale. What does that do to capitalism? Yeah. What does that do to democracy? What does that do to tech? And you will have some very deep answers there. It's scary, something else. You know, thrilled by your finally giving birth to these papers and would love to have you back again.

1:22:11You've been an incredible friend of the pod here to speak about. I'm going off to come. I'm going off to come. I think I think really, really important. Okay, Dave, I was going to wind this down so people can. So, you know, ideas like this historically, they propagate out through a token and you have a, you already have this universal access to AI as a founding principle, which is, I'm sure going to be available in a blockchain form, right? That's the only way you would get it out quickly to the, to the world. Is it fundamentally investable as a token or not? Yeah, it's just like Bitcoin, except for its called foundation quit.

1:22:45It's called foundation. When's it going to be out? Soon hopefully. Wait, reminding us of, reminding us of his January. I'll never it's out like come back and Well, I will come back and we'll launch it right here on this on this moonshot pod agree It might agree agree it yeah, yes So you might what are this real quick? What are your next steps here in making this real Making this launch? We're gonna put out all of the knowledge and the work that we've done and we just want people to give their input and think about what the future of education health governments and everything is like the first episode stress test that so go to ii .ink if you sign up you'll get the details of that and all the details and knowledge will be there and then I just I think okay that's where we go to to get more details and following you you know you're active on on X yeah where did you what's your handle there it's at E .Mostak here then my last name all All right, amazing.

1:23:44So I know Selim and Dave, we could go on for hours here in this conversation. And we should, but next time. I think we've at the S curve limit of extracting useful value in this conversation. My brain is fraught. I don't even have your back. Just restructure society. No big deal. You know, yeah. It is the most exciting time ever to be alive. We're in the middle of this intelligence explosion. And I just want to remind people that we have the ability to steer. We don't need to give up on a sense of humanity's future. It's not going to happen to us. We have the ability to shape that future, to create that Star Trek universe, to create this a sense of a hopeful, compelling, abundant future for humanity.

1:24:33That's what we talk about on this podcast. And that's what we believe in. and E -Mod, thank you for being a friend and a brilliant creator. So I know the folks that prefer a Mad Max future, don't listen to this podcast anyway. Yeah, I know. Go someplace else. Talk about politics and place else. You want to talk about science, technology, creating the future, creating moonshots. This is the place for you. So share it with your friends. E -Mod, a pleasure. In terms of the names of this podcast, E -Mod, I think you hit the high bar on a true moonshot. Yes, same humanity, that's a good one. My MTP is a transform civilization and I think I can just relax now.

1:25:14I gave up space to Elon, you can give up that Emojda. Why are these four letter names that start with E so important these days? I don't know.

1:25:28Thank you for joining us on the special episode of Munchatz with Emojda Moustak, the founder of IntelligentInternet. Go to ii .ink, check it all out, and come back and visit us next time. We'll be back next week with another episode of WTF just happened in technology.