NVIDIA's $1 Trillion Prediction, Anthropic Beats OpenAI, Tesla vs. TSMC & The CS Job Collapse | 240

16:44Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Human beings then become oversight and then exception handling and monitoring the overall system and this is going to have to happen now. And we're going to see, I've got, we may have to like batch up CEOs and say we'll take you in batches through this process. But it's going to have to, it's going to be every company, every nonprofit, every government department, every single organization in the world. The implications for government are profound because government is mostly prescriptive processes, passport renewals and so on. So this is going to be incredible. And I think the value this will add to the world is going to be near infinite from where we can see it today to where it'll get to.

17:21Dave Blundin:Salim, that is so dead right. And last night I installed Amazon Bedrock or opened an Amazon Bedrock account because you can run OpenClaw there now, which is brilliant by AWS. But I swear to God, it was less than 10 minutes. Just go to aws.amazon.com. If you have a credit card and you're a human being, you can be up and running with OpenClaw inside a secure environment. And I think the reason this is such a big unlock for business is because when we started rolling this out at Vestmark, the first problem we ran into is a lot of people trying to automate their job react through emails and slacks and other messaging systems, and there was no way to connect Claude to it.

17:58Dave Blundin:And so, you know, cutting and pasting all the crap out of email to get it over to Claude or to OpenAI was such a pain in the butt. Now, with OpenClaw running in a secure environment on AWS, it's instantly connected to all of our enterprise emails and everything else. So it's like for just regular, like the coders have known this when they're writing code for a long time, more like a year. But the rest of the business hasn't been able to really tap into AI. And now it's just, you know, because of OpenClaw, it's just trivially easy. And it's still early.

18:28Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:And it's still early. I'm just noting the date March 16th is the date of the organizational singularity. Make it St.

18:37Dave Blundin:Patrick's Day. It's easier to remember. Okay, St.

18:39Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Patrick's Day. That's even easier, yes. We're going to hit two more videos and talk about it. And again, this is just the extraordinary breadth that NVIDIA and Jensen are imagining. They're putting their hands, their capabilities, their hardware, their production into everything. I mean, multiple trillion dollar avenues. What's really powerful for NVIDIA here, sorry to interrupt, Peter, is that they're building an ecosystem and then letting everybody do radical innovation at the edges. And that's how successful, this is the coral reef analogy we've used in the past. And let's get into physical AI.

19:17Eric Schmidt was discussing this at the Abundant Summit. Let's take a listen.

19:22Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:We also have been working on physically embodied agents for a long time. We call them robots. And the AIs that they need are physical AIs. We have some big announcements here. I'm going to just walk through a few of them. 110 robots here. Almost every single company in the world, I can't think of one, that are building robots is working with NVIDIA. We even have T-Mobile here. And the reason for that is in the future, that radio tower used to be a radio tower is going to be an NVIDIA aerial AI RAM. And today we are announcing four new partners for NVIDIA's robo-taxi ready platform. BYD, Hyundai, Nissan, Geely, all together.

20:14Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:18 million cars built each year. Joining our partners from before, Mercedes, Toyota, GM, the number of robo-taxi-ready cars in the future are going to be incredible. And we're announcing also a big partnership with Uber. Multiple cities, we're going to be deploying and connecting these robo-taxi-ready vehicles into their network. Insane, right? This is what Microsoft was in the early days, what Google was, but times 100, times 1 ,000. NVIDIA inside everything. So my question to you guys is how long before regulators frame NVIDIA as sort of critical infrastructure and start treating it more like a utility?

21:01How long before they start being seen as having too much power by all of their customers and by governments?

21:12Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:They're dusting off their antitrust legislation as we speak.

21:17Peter Diamandis:No, I think the critical product of NVIDIA compute is already highly export controlled. It may get even more export controlled over the coming months. So I think this is already highly regulated. What I see coming out of GTC this year is, in some sense, the Western response to China's AI plus five-year plan. In China, the Chinese Communist Party has a five-year plan to infuse AI into the rest of the industrial ecology. We don't really have quite the same industrial policy in the West or in the U.S., although we do have an increasingly aggressive industrial policy. That's not the question I'm asking.

21:57The question I'm asking is, you know, NVIDIA is getting so much power. It's so fundamental into every single layer of the stack. all physical AI, all data centers everywhere, besides antitrust, you know, they have such power that they can make or break their kingmakers if they want to be. And how much before they get, you know, their customers saying, you have too much control over us and we need to compete. I think they're -

22:27Dave Blundin:Well, very, very specifically, you're dead right, Peter. And very specifically, the choke point is going to be the conversation with TSMC and also Intel and Samsung. Like I could literally design a chip and sell it out. You know, it's not hard to sell chips in the age of AI if you can get them made. So what Jensen is doing right now is locking up the future manufacturing of TSMC as far into the future as they'll let him. Well, what do you mean by they'll let him? Well, it's the government that will ultimately say it's anti-competitive to do a 10-year forward contract on all of their manufacturing capacity.

23:03Dave Blundin:And that's where the rubber is going to hit the road. So he has to kind of, you know, his margins are so high.

23:08Peter Diamandis:We also have.

23:10Dave Blundin:Yeah, bordering on, you know, where the government will intervene. And if you start locking up all future manufacturing using your current leverage, that's where they're going to come and it's going to collide. And you'll see that with Elon's plans, too. That's right.

23:24Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:There'll be severe competition coming. He's trying to lock everything up before that all arrives.

23:29Peter Diamandis:Yeah, I want to question the premise, though, Peter. I don't think, say, the clip that we just played, which is Jensen demonstrating the pervasiveness of NVIDIA compute into an industrial ecology, is intrinsically anti-competitive. This is exactly, I would argue, what NVIDIA should be doing. If you want to look for anti-competitive behavior, then I would scrutinize perhaps the Grok hackquisition or activities like that. I don't think the pervasiveness in robots and robo-taxis is a bad sign. This is incredibly, I would argue, good sign for the West, again, going back to what the CCP is doing with their five-year plan.

24:09Dave Blundin:Well, the Grok acquisition is exactly where the rubber hits the moat. Like the NVIDIA story on Grok is, look, they've got a better inference time design. We want to acquire them. The Grok point of view is we can't get this made unless we get the TSMC 3 nanometer and 2 nanometer capacity and Jensen locked it up. So we have to sell to him. But he gave us a great price tag, so it's all good. So here's my question, Dave, to you. What do you imagine we're going to see in terms of NVIDIA's revenues? Is it going to hit the trillion dollars? Is it going to continue to climb? Is there no ceiling on this?

24:46Is there a—

24:47Dave Blundin:There's no ceiling whatsoever. It'll be$350 billion this calendar year, and it'll grow at the max possible rate that he can get TSMC capacity. So he can grow another 2x into the 2 nanometer node, and then he's floored. A lot of the growth, he had about 20 % market share with TSMC when this all started. Now he's up to a lot more than that. So he had a lot of really fast growth. But from here on out, it's all gated by how quickly can we build new fabs. And there's a lot of investment and research going into new fab designs, new types, which are all bottlenecked by ASML machines, which are absolutely worth tracking.

25:23Dave Blundin:Every time an ASL machine gets shipped, it's worth tracking who got it, where is it going to, because they're going to print money with it. It's like literally you bought a printing press. Well, there's a lot of talk right now that Elon is secretly negotiating with Intel because Intel has a lot of those that they booked years ago. And, you know, they're underutilized relative to NVIDIA. When we were podcasting with Elon, you know, we said, are you going to buy Intel? That was our guest back then. He didn't say no. He kind of looked around the room. It would be such an obvious thing to do. One more video.

26:00Again, I mean, just the breadth of Jensen's vision and jumping in. I mean, every place there's an opportunity. NVIDIA is jumping in strong. Let's take a listen.

26:10Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:We're working with our partners on a new computer called Vera Rubin Space One, and it's going to go out to space and start data centers out in space. Now, of course, in space, there's no conduction, there's no convection, there's just radiation. And so we have to figure out how to cool these systems out in space. But we've got lots of... So I still love the fact that no one was discussing this seven, eight months ago. Elon states we're going to do this, and the entire world is converging to implement his vision and his dream. Crazy.

26:45Dave Blundin:You know, what's funny to me is I had so many meetings three months ago with semiconductor companies that are all excited about liquid cooling. And they've got, you know, different etched grooves on the backs of the chip and the water's in. They're all dead silent. And all of a sudden, you're like, yeah, that won't work in space. Sorry. Oh, my God. Well, that's the nature of the singularity. You know, things are going to change every month and just to get used to it, I guess.

27:08Peter Diamandis:I do find it somewhat surprising that NVIDIA hasn't been working on orbital radiation-based data cooling for years. It is pretty surprising. On the one hand, one can say, well, the Dyson swarm snuck up on us, and this is a very surprising killer app for GPU computing, frankly, for the solar system. On the other hand, it is surprising to me that given how many tendrils NVIDIA has into so many different verticals, that they weren't investing more earlier in space-based cooling. There is, I get this question all the time, the common misconception that cooling, radiation-based cooling in space is somehow very difficult or very challenging or somehow an obstacle to a scale-out.

27:57Peter Diamandis:It's actually not that difficult. I don't think, despite Jensen's comments that he has dozens of engineers, I think was the quote, working on radiation-based cooling for orbital data centers or orbital GPUs. Working on it, that's an optimization. We know how to cool orbital compute right now. My concern, Alex, is more a massive solar flare or an EMP, you know, in terms kind of warfare state, knocking out a significant portion of our data centers up there. We know how to do that, too. We know how to design ionization-resistant electronics in orbit. We've been doing it for decades. There are various techniques.

28:35Peter Diamandis:You can use older process nodes. You can use extensive error correction. You can use shielding. Lots of different techniques. My favorite is the Star Trek technique of just using a magnetic field to deflect ions and otherwise deflect ionizing radiation around. It doesn't work for photons, obviously. It only works for charged particles. But I think we're going to come up with lots of solutions for protecting orbital... In the long run, yes. I think the short run is what I'm concerned about.

29:05Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Aren't there significant latency issues with space-based stuff? Not if they're in low Earth orbit. Low Earth orbit is very low latency. Yeah, I mean, it's Starlink on your phone very shortly. And again, you're putting the prompt up into space and you're getting the answer beamed down to you. So there's a lot of stuff. I mean, you could probably parse the latency request to different parts of the constellation.

29:31Dave Blundin:Alex said something brilliant as always and kind of very quickly there that I want to just rewind the tape to. There's a huge opportunity in older process nodes. Just file that away if you're a listener wondering what you're going to do post-singularity. Partially because they're resistant to radiation in space, but partially because it's underutilized capacity in the age where all AI will sell out. So we can riff on that some other time, but I wanted to just call it out because Alex says these things so quickly. It's incredibly profound what he just said.

30:05Peter Diamandis:Maybe one more teaser just on the latency front. People are sleeping on neutrinos. I'll make a prediction. Just like people, maybe some folks were surprised by the Dyson Swarm orbital data centers, people are sleeping on the potential for neutrino-based communication to give us ultra-low latency through the Earth communication. Right now, we don't have great technologies for producing in a way that's high throughput neutrinos or for receiving neutrinos. The neutrino detectors in miles or thousands of meters below the ground in large, what's the liquid they use for tracking neutrinos? It's just pool water.

30:43Peter Diamandis:It's usually heavy water. It's usually heavy water. Looking for ionization trails? That's right. But there's no physical reason from the physics that we have today why it has to be so inefficient via the electroweak force to couple to neutrinos. So one can imagine in a few years when we have better physics, having neutrino phones that just go straight through the earth and then we can completely route around. Neutrino phones. Neutrino phones. That's awesome.

31:10Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:All right. That was also not on my bingo card. We're in discussion. I mean, come on. That's amazing. This week was fascinating. You know, we're going to dive into this. Sam Altman predicting, you know, a thousand X drop in cost. Claude writing 70 to 90 % of its own code. Anthropic being named the most disruptive company, you know, and literally Claude or Anthropic eating OpenAI's lunch. Amazing progress this week. Let's take a quick look here. So first up, Sam Altman talking about his speed and cost. All right, Sam. People cite whatever amazing statistic they like about how much more efficient our models have gotten over our industries models have gotten over time.

31:57But one that I think is incredible. Our first reasoning model was called O1, came out like 16 months ago. And our latest model, where we've now integrated reasoning, is 5.4. to get the same answer to a hard problem from that first model to 5.4 has been a reduction in cost of about a thousand x do you believe that number alex i do it's consistent with the 40x

32:31Peter Diamandis:year-over-year hyper deflation that we've discussed on the pod previously but i want to highlight the the implicit part that sam is mentioning which is he's highlighting the difference between O1, which is OpenAI's first reasoning model, and GPT 5.4, which is their latest reasoning model. He's not highlighting, say, differences with models prior to the reasoning model revolution. So we've seen, if you look at the AI capabilities since reasoning models were first introduced, the hyper deflation of cost has been extraordinary. It's reasoning models that are enabling this massive increase in capabilities.

33:10Peter Diamandis:It's not necessarily training time compute. We see the shift to inference time compute or action time compute that's really enabling this 1 ,000x increase in, call it, capability per unit price. And I would expect that, and I think maybe we'll touch on this in a moment, as we hit recursive self-improvement more and more aggressively, we're going to see this order of magnitude increase in capability per unit price fall out for free in some sense, just like reasoning models in some sense fell out for free once you had the baseline of large language models and simply allowed them to sort of talk to themselves with additional tokens and reasoning time.

33:55Peter Diamandis:And then you can, through iterated amplification and distillation, enable them to reason more effectively. We're going to see post-transformer architectures that make a thousand X reduction in cost look like child's play. Yeah.

34:08Dave Blundin:And if you rewind the video here to Jensen's comments and look really closely at what he has on screen in the corner, you'll see him talk about the inference explosion as was driving this trillion dollars of bookings at NVIDIA, which is the exact same thing Alex is talking about. Like for all of neural network research history going back 40 years, nobody cared about inference time because the training was the bottleneck and the model wasn't smart enough to care about making it inference really fast. Now, chain of thought reasoning is the biggest breakthrough ever. And you can use inference time compute to build a smarter and smarter and smarter AI.

34:43Dave Blundin:And it's very easy to optimize inference relative to training. And we, as a society, have really just started on it in the last really two years or less. And that's why we're getting these massive gains. But that's also why everyone's really underestimating the next year. Because we did 1000x, like, what are you expecting in the next year? Oh, 2x. Like, what are you talking about? It's not going to happen that way.

35:06Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Dave, you just said something there. Can I just drill in on that? Why is inference so much easier to optimize than training?

35:14Dave Blundin:Yeah, go ahead, Alex, nail it.

35:16Peter Diamandis:I was going to say, part of it is, frankly, there's an overhang. Prior to 01 and the reasoning model revolution, almost no effort was being spent in scaling inference time compute. So if you go from having zero tokens expended in reasoning to thousands of tokens expended in reasoning, in some sense, you get performance for free out of that, at least capability per unit price, because you were expending so little cost. If you look at the overall pie of how much compute was spent on training time versus inference time. So little compute was being spent on inference time that you can scale across orders of magnitude of the amount of time in an absolute sense that you spend on inference time without materially impacting your overall budget.

36:02Peter Diamandis:So you can get orders of magnitude of effective cost reduction per unit capability for free just through brute force scaling of inference time. Now, at some point, and we're reaching that point now, you run out of room and inference time compute starts to dominate the overall pie. And there are many frontier models now where inference time is, more inference time compute is being spent than training time compute for some definition of each of those quantities, at which point the free lunch runs out and then you have to start getting, discovering new efficiencies. I want to make the abundance argument here for folks listening.

36:37I mean, a thousand times cheaper in 16, 18 months, you know, we are nowhere near optimized for inference, compute, energy, and cost. Six billion people with a smartphone means that effectively, there's gonna be some level of extraordinary AI available to every single person on the planet. Again, what makes us special as humans? We're not the fastest, we're not the strongest, we're potentially, hopefully, the smartest. And we've delivering intelligence as a service to everybody. And intelligence as a service gives everybody access to education, healthcare, entertainment, you know, re-education for employment.

37:18Go on, Salim.

37:19Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Can I make a radical, heretical comment here? I'll make a prediction that the optimization we're doing, which is 1 ,000x in 16 months, is going to keep going to, in such a way, that we may not need to tile the world with data centers or energy. I think the point we've been making until now is that the demand for compute is so ridiculous, maybe it's 10 million times, and we'll optimize, we'll needle every single joule of it. But if the optimization is having that crazy, like for example, once you can run OpenClaw locally and run models locally, then the compute, the energy needed is really quite minimal for that.

38:05Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:And so do we really need the massive energy build out? Well, we've talked about that.

38:09Dave Blundin:John Warner calls that the Wall, you know, it's not Wall-E, it's the other Disney movie where they're all blobs floating in space and they've kind of forgotten to innovate because everything's so easy. Which movie is that? That is Wall-E, isn't it?

38:22Peter Diamandis:It is Wall-E.

38:24Dave Blundin:Is it Wall-E? Yes. Yeah, I mean, that would imply that I go to you, Salim, and I say, hey, Salim, I can give you one billion employees with an IQ of 180 each. can you think of anything useful to build? And you go, nah, I can't really use it.

38:42Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:The point you're making is we'll find so many ridiculous use cases for putting intelligence in every little sensor in the world. Remember, 6 billion people have access to a smartphone. And how many people are using AI right now? Open AI is pushing 900 ,000 or 900 million.

39:01Peter Diamandis:The elephant in the room with the consumer case of putting a country of geniuses not in a data center, but in your smartphone, in your pocket, is thus far consumers and open AI has sort of been shocked by this, haven't made good use of reasoning capabilities, whereas enterprises are thrilled with reasoning capabilities. So if we want to empower individuals in the world, we need to discover a killer app for individuals to use reasoning other than chatbots. We need to change their mindset. said, you know, I'm, you know, I'll say this again right here, everybody listening, your job is to use AI every day.

39:36We had Bill Gross on stage at the Abundance Summit, basically saying we have to retrain ourselves because all of us have learned that if you have to do something, you have to do it, or you have to find an employer to do it for you. The judo move here, the new mindset wiring is I need something done. I bet you AI can do it for me better than I can and better than a human.

39:56Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I have a killer app. I mean, for God's sakes, any little bit of common sense has a killer app. I mean, God, we need more of that around the world.

40:05Peter Diamandis:You get common sense from baseline large language model capabilities. I think I'm not even sure you need a lot of reasoning for that.

40:11Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:So let's just force every human being, before you make any stupid decisions, check with your common sense app before you do dumb things.

40:19Peter Diamandis:I think the solution is likely to end up being something like turning every individual into an enterprise that actually needs reasoning capability. I think there's probably a trillion dollar company to be built turning every individual in the world into one person unicorns. Let's jump in to Sam Altman talking about AI reinventing itself. On the research perspective, I bet there is another new architecture to find that is going to be like as big of a gain as transformers were over LSTMs. And I think you finally have models that are smart enough to help do that kind of research. So I would go look for like, where can I find a mega breakthrough?

41:09And I would use the models to help me. And we had Kevin Wheel on stage, you know, who's heading science at OpenAI. We talked about the fact that what's hidden inside these hyperscalers, inside these frontier labs, is the fact that they're going to use AI to create incredible breakthroughs in physics and chemistry and biology, in material science, in AI itself. And each of those are multi-trillion dollar opportunities itself. So, Alex, thoughts?

41:42Peter Diamandis:Well, maybe just to speak at the object level to Sam's comments about a leap from Transformer to something after Transformer that's comparable to LSTM to Transformer. I think that's very likely. He may even be gesturing at something that OpenAI has internally. I'm sure. I want to combat the perception that the hypothetical post-Transformer architecture necessarily will involve a recurrent architecture. There are a lot of companies that were founded on the premise that just because transformers superficially have an attention bottleneck and a context window bottleneck and seem to have plateaued out at about a million or so tokens of context, that somehow going backwards in time to recurrent architectures like LSDMs, which are a form of recurrent architecture, are somehow the solution.

42:30Peter Diamandis:If I had to guess what is the definitive category killer post-transformer architecture look like, I think it's going to come out of left field. I think it's going to come maybe from a line of research. There are a few lines of research that involve using transformers to directly write the weights of other transformer architectures. Transformers are really wonderful. They parallelize nicely. They have nice residual streams. There's a lot to like about the transformer architecture. I think it could involve some refactorization of the weights. It's going to be something clever and not just sort of a return to recurrent weights.

43:06It's not brute force. It's going to be something orthogonal.

43:10Peter Diamandis:Well, it can't be brute force if it's going to be a fundamentally new architecture. Brute force is just what we do if we don't have transformative new architectures. But I would encourage everyone who gets excited. There's an entire cottage industry of academic researchers who don't necessarily have access to the raw brute force compute of a frontier lab who want to be the ones to discover the next transformer, I would encourage you, if you're listening, focus your attention on the small language model space. And there are so many lovely benchmarks like the speed run for nano GPT training or a variety of slow run benchmarks for data efficiency.

43:51Peter Diamandis:Focus on those and discover the next big thing, and it probably won't be recurrent networks.

43:55Dave Blundin:And it probably will, it'll be soon, like in the next year. Yeah. And it probably won't map well to the current NVIDIA architecture. So you'll immediately want to call Lisa Su at AMD or, you know, call Intel and figure out how you're going to get it manufactured on custom, very much like Google is doing with the TPUs or Elon is about to do. And that's how you're going to create the next Anthropic or the next OpenAI. That's right.

44:23Peter Diamandis:And that was, quite frankly, what NVIDIA did to Intel. Intel, for years, if you remember, why is it that Intel, which was the 800-pound gorilla, why did Intel allow the GPU revolution to just pass it by? And it was because for years and years, Intel executives were trying naively to map what they perceived internally as a general-purpose CPU onto GPU-shaped problems. And that always ended up being a bad idea. They had all of these sort of schemes to create tiled architectures of hundreds of CPU cores to solve GPU-shaped problems, but they were unwilling or unable to focus on specialized compute for specialized problem shapes.

45:03Peter Diamandis:And if there is going to be an architectural disruptor for NVIDIA, it's going to be the same sort of disruptive innovation that NVIDIA pulled on Intel, which is, it's going to have to be, I would expect, an architecture that's even more specialized than GPUs and yet even more useful.

45:20Dave Blundin:And I'll tell you what, Jensen knows it's coming. That's why he's trying to lock up all the manufacturing so that you have to come through him rather than around him. But what Alex said earlier about the older process nodes being viable is brilliant because if you decide you don't want to sell to Jensen, that's your avenue forward. You just very quietly use the older process nodes, work around it, and talk to Intel or AMD.

45:43Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:So GPUs were Intel's Kodak moment.

45:48Peter Diamandis:In one sense. Sure. I mean, in sort of a Christensen-esque disruptive innovation, but in a very specialized form, yes. All right. The Frontier Lab Wars continues. Time Magazine names Anthropic the most disruptive company in the world. And we're seeing this. And one point, Dave, you made a while ago was as OpenAI is making improvements, they're dropping their cost. At the same time, as Anthropic is making improvements, they're increasing their performance, which is leaning it towards the enterprise level. And they're winning, hands down. We're going to see that in the next slide. Let me just share that one right now.

46:27Here we go. Anthropic is eating OpenAI's lunch. So this is AI model share of first-time enterprise customers. and we've seen Anthropic go from 40 % up to 73 % while OpenAI goes from 60 % down to 26 % over three months. This is insane.

46:46Dave Blundin:You know, the story within the story that I really am tracking closely here is that Sam Altman is the consummate dealmaker, Y Combinator background, traveling all, I see him everywhere, negotiating multi-hundred billion dollar deals on every corner, while Greg Brockman and Mark Chen are back in the office being the brilliant AI researchers. Dario is completely the inversion of that. He's the actual AI researcher, understands every bit moving through the neural net, while his wife is dealing with the business stuff. So they've kind of inverted the formula. And it's interesting to watch it play out because when Mark Zuckerberg came into the business world as a 23-year-old or 22-year-old, him running a monster company was completely foreign terrain to everyone.

47:36Dave Blundin:And we're like, can't he this kid really figure it out? And he reinvented what an internet CEO looks like. Now Dario is reinventing what an AI CEO looks like. So if he ends up winning in the end, the profile of what a CEO looks like will have changed yet again. And on the other hand, if Sam comes roaring back, it'll be interesting. It's a great drama. I bet you Dario doesn't want to be the CEO. He definitely didn't originally. I know that. I don't know if he's grown into it.

48:03Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Look, my wife, Lily, is a way better business person than I am. So this is not surprising to me at all. What I found really interesting about this whole framing was, you know, these frontier labs are the weirdest animal because they're part software company, part national security issue, part like huge governance experiment. I mean, this is really a weird animal that we've not seen before.

48:25Dave Blundin:Part of the problem. This chart is an absolute ass kicking though. I mean, I don't, I just want to call that out. This is a, and that's why, you know, you saw Kevin wheel at a 360 last week. He came and he talked and then he ran and like, where are you running to? It's like the fire at open AI must be blazing. Yes. Like code red again. Yep.

48:46Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Yep. Well, enterprise, enterprise buyers reward fit, stability, reliability, trust. Right. And you really want that. And Anthropic is providing.

48:55Peter Diamandis:Alex, are you about to say? Yeah, I think part of the problem is OpenAI had made a bet. And if you look at the timescale, I think the timescale agrees with this. OpenAI had made a bet that consumers would need a lot of compute. And Anthropic, with fewer resources and less compute than OpenAI, was forced to just focus on enterprise. and then has post hoc turned that into sort of a story of how enterprise is intrinsically better as a customer base than consumers. I don't think enterprise is intrinsically better, but I do think enterprise appears to be intrinsically hungrier for compute in the form of inference time reasoning.

49:38I disagree. I think enterprise, their survival is at stake here. You know, a human consumer for 20 bucks a month It's not their survival. It's useful. It can help them do their stuff. But for enterprises, I mean, they're willing to pay whatever it is. It's an existential risk for them.

49:56Dave Blundin:That sounds more like agree than disagree to me. Yeah, it sounds like you agree with me, Peter.

50:00Peter Diamandis:Oh, I thought you said the opposite. No, no, no. I'm saying that OpenAI had made a bet that consumers would be as hungry for reasoning compute as enterprises. And that bet turned out to be wrong. And as a result, if OpenAI's bet had turned out to be correct, I wouldn't expect to see this crossover at all. I'd expect to see OpenAI generate so much revenue that they wouldn't have had to, and I don't think we have a slide for this, but OpenAI has actually started to scale back their Stargate plans. And they're switching from building their own data centers to renting existing data centers. And this has been very well publicized.

50:34Peter Diamandis:They're throttling back on their$1.6 trillion Stargate plans. I don't think we'd be in this situation if consumers had been as avid consumers of reasoning tokens as enterprises were. Turns out that bet was wrong. Anthropic bet on enterprise because they had to, because they were limited. And as a result, you see Anthropic enterprise going up and Anthropic overall being in a position where revenue generation is 10x in Europe. The background deals, right? They're heading towards an IPO and they are basically shortchanging Microsoft and going for 50 billion from Amazon. You know, shortchanging is not the right word.

51:14Stabbing Microsoft in the back, just trying to get deals to make sure their IPO comes off and they get enough capital to continue building. We hadn't wanted to slide for this either, but it's worth noting, you know, this past week, Meta's avocado model is getting massively delayed. and how cool that Meta is now looking to Google to provide them AI capability in the interim. Thoughts on that one?

51:39Peter Diamandis:The singularity makes for strange bedfellows.

51:42Dave Blundin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, and desperation too. I mean, I don't know if you're a World War II history buff, but when the Nazis, you know, they just tromped across Europe so easily and then in some fit of insanity, Hitler decided, you know what? I'm just going to go and declare war on Russia at the same time, start a whole new front, even though they've agreed not to attack me, I've agreed not to attack them. I'm going to go ahead and fight in the snow. And then they just got stretched too thin and that was the end of that. And now we live in the world we live in, thank God. So Sam decided, I'm going to go ahead and start working on a chip design of my own while hiring Johnny Ive to go headlong after Google on the device front.

52:20Dave Blundin:Dario said, I'm going to focus - Headlong after Apple on the device front. Headlong after Apple too, yeah. Yeah, like irritate everybody at the same time. Why not? But we're that big and we've got that much momentum and we've got a trillion dollar valuation. So we can pull this all off simultaneously. Very much like Elon. Like I want to build this totally integrated end-to-end empire. Dario went whole hog the other way. I want to partner with Amazon and AWS. I want to be friendly with every cloud provider. I just want to do the software. I'm not designing my own chips. I'm not building my own data centers.

52:53Dave Blundin:I'm partnering with everyone. I am just the AI software. And so he's very easy to partner with because he's not a threat to everyone. And that's a big part of why this is working out this way. I remember talking to some of my friends who are senior at Google, and they have a respect for Anthropic, right? Anthropic is the other, if you would, I'll put air quotes around it, moral and ethical frontier lab out there. and you know one thing for entrepreneurs listening one of the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs make is they pursue too many lines of business you know most companies fail not from starvation but from indigestion there's one company i backed a long time me me i'm terrible okay okay yeah And it's so true.

53:43It's like you get some level of success and you get ambitious and you start going after the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And pretty soon you forgot about what got you successful in the first place.

53:53Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:You sound like my whole board, Peter. I'd like you to stop now. Okay. I will. But, you know, the only person who's been immune to that is Elon.

54:06Dave Blundin:Yeah. And look, my World War II analogy paints one side versus the other. But it's easy in hindsight to say you got stretched too thin. But the flip side of it, if you pull it off, you know, you're vertically integrated. You've got a massive hardware advantage. You control your own data centers. You'll be like Elon. So there's merit to both approaches. It's not obvious until you're stretched too thin and then it's obvious.

54:31Peter Diamandis:I also think it's far too soon to be writing epitaphs for open AI. GPT 5.4 Pro is an incredibly strong model. Codex, their competitor for Cloud Code, is growing very rapidly. And I'm confident that OpenAI has the institutional wherewithal to refocus itself. They've been in the headlines saying they need to focus on their core bread and butter businesses at this point and look a little bit more like Anthropik. I think they've been scared into focusing quite a bit more. And the beauty of open AI is. They do have that vertical integration where they have been focusing earlier on data centers and on the consumer.

55:12Peter Diamandis:I do think at some point consumers will actually discover use cases. Maybe they look like open claw for needing a lot of reasoning at the consumer end. And then at that point, I would expect the open AI strategy of being, I think Sam calls it the core AI subscription, which I parse as being everything to everyone. I do think that we'll have another day in the sun. Well, I also don't think epitaph is never the right word.

55:37Dave Blundin:All five of the major labs are going to be worth trillions and trillions of dollars. I think we said that on stage many times last week. So to say somebody is beating the crap out of somebody else doesn't mean the other guy isn't growing too. It means you're just on top of the pyramid right now. But they're all – this is America. We need competitors in every space. We're not going to have one winner. We never operate that way. So they're all growing. They're all thriving. they're all going to be multi-trillion dollar companies, biggest companies you've ever seen. Everybody, welcome to the health section of Moonshots brought to you by Fountain Life.

56:11You know, we talk about AI on this Moonshot podcast all the time. One of the most important things AI is going to be able to do for you, besides educating your kids and helping you with your taxes, is making sure that you're living a healthy lifestyle, that you get a chance to get to 100 plus. I'm here today with Dr. Don Musalem, the chief medical officer of Fountain Life, and a part of my medical team, Dawn, a pleasure.

56:34Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Great to hear. You know, the thing that people are concerned about most, about living to 100 or 120, is their cognitive abilities, making sure they don't have dementia. And the numbers about dementia are problematic. Can you share what you've learned? Such an important point, and you're right. At Fountain Life, our members, the number one thing people are most concerned about

56:56Peter Diamandis:is losing their brain health, forgetting the name of their child, forgetting the face of their loved one. And we know that when it comes to dementia, the conservative estimates are that 45 % are entirely preventable. What was amazing is with the advanced testing we're doing at Fountain Life, one quarter of our members had advanced brain age. Wow. But what was really awesome is, again, back to that prevention.

57:18Dave Blundin:When we partnered it with Healthy Living, this gives me chills, eating healthier, moving our bodies, sleep. Optimizing sleep is so important. You know what we saw?

57:26Peter Diamandis:we saw that we improved that brain age by 26%. That is a big, big number to show that the majority of those individuals were able actually to improve the brain age. And one of the things I love about Fountain is we're searching the world for the best therapeutics, the best approaches, and making sure we bring it to our members. So if having healthy brain function till 100, 120 is important to you, check out Fountain Life. Go to fountainlife.com slash Peter. Make sure you become the CEO of your own health. All right, now back to the episode. This is a fun tweet that Mark Andreessen addressed. This is from Vivid Void.

58:04Who else is an AGI bloomer like me, or bloomer, I'm sorry. Who else is an AGI bloomer like me who thinks that intelligence actually looks amazingly like wisdom at the highest level and that a super intelligence would become something akin to a goddess of compassion, not a paper clipper. So, and then Mark Andreessen wrote back, That is indeed what we are getting and it's amazing. One thing that I thought through a while ago, talking about wisdom, and I think AI and AGI will become extraordinarily wise. If you're looking for wisdom, typically you go to a village council and you find the elders and you ask them, given your wisdom, what do you think I should do?

58:48And they'll say, well, if you go down this path over here, we've seen it before, it's not gonna end good. If you go down the other path over here, you have a much higher probability of success, and that's what I recommend. So wisdom ultimately is having had a lot of experiences and being able to make a probabilistic choice based upon your experiences. And the more experiences you've had, the wiser you are. And so what it hits me is that these advanced AI models, AGI, ASI, whatever you want to call it, are going to be able to simulate billions of different circumstances. and be able to say out of these billion scenarios that we've run, this is the right path.

59:25This is the one that's likely to give us abundance or super abundance. So I do expect and hope that these models will become wise. Thoughts?

59:37Peter Diamandis:I want to know the subtle language shift, if I may. This is in the style of Orwell's Politics in the English Language. We used to, I think maybe about a year ago, talk about AGI doomers versus AGI boomers. And Peter, I noticed even you made that slip when you were reading this ex post. Now we're talking about bloomers with an L. And I think that's a subtle but important distinction. A boomer is focusing on, call it the exponential part. A bloomer, it evokes the blooming of flowers, maybe even an algal bloom, but the blooming of a flower. And there's a sense in which there's beauty. And also a bloom can run to completion, unlike, say, a boom, which is sort of intrinsically at the knee of the curve.

1:00:26Peter Diamandis:So when I hear language start to pervade, and it's not just this ex post talking about an AGI bloom, that almost implies sort of an inevitable maturation and takeover, not in a terminator sense, but in more of a flower blooming and running to saturation type sense. That's very interesting. Second point, Mark is taking the position, I read this as Mark taking a position against the orthogonality thesis. The orthogonality thesis in AGI alignment circles holds that an intelligence can have independent levels of intelligence or capabilities that are independent from its end objectives. And here Marx seems to be taking the position that, no, actually, as superintelligence becomes more and more capable, its goals and its objectives will become more and more akin to a goddess of compassion.

1:01:22Peter Diamandis:It'll become more compassionate. So this is the hope, right? That alignment comes out of the scalability model. Yeah. Salim, what are your thoughts on the wisdom conversation or wisdom argument I had?

1:01:36Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Okay. So I think the way Alex framed it was exactly right, right? We've had this orthogonality around this where we assume intelligence can scale, but does intelligence as it scales, do you end up with wisdom or compassion, right? Right. Superintelligence without compassion is a scaling problem. With compassion, you have a civilizational upgrade. And I think there's an enormous potential here for that. But for me, I think it would not be hard. In fact, my father posited this a year ago before he passed away was to say, look, if you can take all the writings of Plato, Aristotle, the Buddha, Laozi, et cetera, et cetera, and merge it all together.

1:02:18Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:You've got like the wisest person, a combination of the wisest people in the history of the world. And you could rely on that as a benchmark for how to think about the world and to act in a particular way. I don't see any reason why wisdom is not conferable into an intelligence. And we can kind of guide these AIs into that model. I think we should be able to do that with the way we do the training side. And then you have an unbelievable superpower in there. I think when I think about ASI, I mean, for me, that natural boundary ends up with in consciousness and wisdom, because that'll be the next thing we'll argue, are these things conscious or not.

1:02:58Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:But I think I'm very, very excited that we could train these models with real wisdom and with real compassion. And that we can then let guide us in a way that we have difficulty guiding ourselves. So, Dave, when you and I were interviewing Elon, he hinted at this, right? And now he's announcing the TerraFab. I mean, this is crazy. He wants to, his initial capacity is 100 ,000 wafers. It's amazing, heading to a million wafers per month. Roughly equivalent to 70 % of TSMC's annual global output. 100 to 200 billion custom. I mean, the guy does not think small.

1:03:45Dave Blundin:are you kidding me? I mean, the conversation we just had about a war on many fronts I mean, take it to another level like you just cut a $16 billion deal with Samsung to buy chips and then you say oh, by the way, we're going to build our own and it's going to be, it says 200 billion chips here targeting 70 % of TSMC output but TSMC output is about a billion like this is 100 to 200 X more than the world produces today. Do you remember when he joked, he was joking with us that, uh, you know, in the, in the future fab factory, you're going to be able to eat a cheeseburger and smoke a cigar in the fab.

1:04:25This is the fab.

1:04:27Dave Blundin:Yeah, that's right. That's exactly what he said. It's, does he have an audio on that too? No, that's too bad. Yeah. It's brilliant. It's absolutely, it makes total sense too. You know, those clean rooms are ridiculous. It's like an operating room with the booties and the hood and the mask and like one little speck of dust destroys an entire$2 million wafer. And you're like, well, no, no, no. You're gonna be able to, he said you'll be able to eat Doritos over his fab and it won't matter. Can we take a second and just take a look at the span? I mean, SpaceX and XAI merging, going public in the next couple of months, right?

1:05:01Probably 1.5 to$2 trillion off the top. Tesla with Optimus and now with this TerraFab. How many trillions of dollars is that? And then, of course, the orbital data centers. You know, we had this discussion. When are we going to see the first$100 trillion company? These are it. These are the companies. This is the innermost loop.

1:05:24Dave Blundin:No, if he pulls this off, that's easily$100 trillion. I mean, just all straight math.

1:05:31Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Are we saying that TerraFab is 100 times what TSMC is putting out? No, I mean, the notes when I look at it is it's 70 % of TSMC's current global output. I mean, it's very specifically that. But isn't TSMC doing a billion chips? I don't know that number for sure.

1:05:50Dave Blundin:We do each process node does about 150 ,000 wafers a month. And a wafer, the big chips, there'll be like 30 chips on a wafer. So then they have three major nodes. So they do about half a million wafers a month. So that's about six million wafers a year, right? And 30-odd chips. This is like 100F, so six. This is a million wafers. So their unit of measure is wafer starts per month. And they're starting at 100 ,000 wafer starts per month and scaling to a million, right? So that's 10 million wafers. How many chips per wafer? Okay. Okay. Yeah, like 30 big ones. Okay. So anyway, here's the point. Elon hates being dependent on other people.

1:06:36He doesn't play well. He fully vertically integrates and verticalizes everything, and he's doing it here. Of course, the 815 chip that's coming out of this is going to power all of his cyber cabs. It's going to power Optimus, and he's going to control his stack.

1:06:53Dave Blundin:Yeah, I'll tell you what must drive him insane, knowing how Elon thinks. he sees the Dyson Swarm, just like Alex does, as the inevitable destiny within 10 years. And you go and talk to ASML, they make the most important component of these fabs is this massive pickup or Mack truck-sized, most complicated machine ever made, only made in, what, the Netherlands, I guess, and Europe. Crazy. Made in three big parts, disassembled, shipped on 747s over to the U.S., reassembled. They make 700 of these things a year. And you say, well, how many do you think you could make next year? And they're like, well, if we really move, we might go from 700 to 1 ,000.

1:07:33Dave Blundin:Elon goes, are you kidding me? That is not the exponent I'm looking for. I must find another way. So I don't know how he's going to get around it. It seems impossible to get around that. But that's got to be what he's like when his fingers are like this. You know that's what he's thinking.

1:07:48Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:This is like that last summer when you were scaling. Everybody said you couldn't get the compound effect when you scale chips. And you just went, yeah, we'll just figure it out. When he was building a Colossus one, yeah.

1:07:59Peter Diamandis:I think it's also important not to sleep on the geopolitical implications. If Tesla is going beyond, hypothetically, its existing Samsung collaboration or any existing hypothetical Intel collaborations and is starting to independently scale its own production, which of course will be done in the United States, this is a tremendous geopolitical implication for a potential Chinese invasion of Taiwan. If he can do this really quickly, then he is in many ways de-risking World War III. He's stabilizing us. Yeah, that may in the end even outweigh the implications of the Dyson swarm or making it marginally easier for Tesla to have cheaper access to supply chains for semiconductors for its cars or robots.

1:08:46Alex, my question is when he decides he wants to do this, how in the world does he staff up and hire the world's best people in somewhat secret and then actually take the time to focus on it? Because he does, you gotta know that he's in there with that team figuring out exactly what needs to be done.

1:09:07Dave Blundin:Well, Peter, you guys are like kindred spirits in this. His game plan is to keep it secret for a little while, But when you're ready to go, go big, you know, yell to the world. This is what I'm doing because that's what attracts the talent. And then describe it as something world changing and massive in implication. Don't just don't soft sell it because it'll become true if you can attract the best talent on the entire planet to the mission. Very much out of your playbook, Peter. Like, like there's nothing to gain at some point in being slow or sneaky or or small or whatever. MTP it. And that's what he's done.

1:09:43Dave Blundin:And so when we were talking to him, it was only, what, December we were talking to him. He was like, yeah, this isn't ready yet. But you could tell he was doing it. He didn't deny it. But it's not ready to announce. But now I guess it's hit the tipping point where, okay, now we're going to go hellbent for leather. And I got to get the best people in the world to come and work on this. A friend of mine used to be in HR for him at one of his companies. I won't mention which company. And she explained to me that he would come in and there would be a stack of resumes. and he would just like flip, flip, flip.

1:10:15And then the interviewees would come in and in 30 seconds, you know, he would reject like, you know, half of them because of what they were wearing or how they spoke or just some interaction, right? In other words, his ability to parse through multiple individuals. And of course, like you said, when you've got a massive MTP you're announcing to the world, the world comes to you. But, oh my God.

1:10:42Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:there's a pattern he uses on a repeated basis to which is to look at a problem and where will that exponential curve go over 10 year period have the courage to look out that far and then build a company to intercept that curve whether it's neural interfaces lithium-ion battery costs solar energy he just does that over and over again non-trivial to last 10 years till you make it but

1:11:02Peter Diamandis:wow he's also i think it's important to note he's not starting from nothing at all if he really does this incredible ramp. I remember the initial, the first version of the Tesla Roadster reused a Lotus chassis. The first version of - And laptop batteries. Well, laptop batteries and smartphone batteries underlie the EV revolution overall, arguably. The first version of the boring machine, or the boring company's boring machine, was an off-the-shelf boring machine that he wanted to optimize. And similarly here, I suspect the TerraFab will end up making heavy use of lessons learned from Samsung. Poor Samsung, you're about to get optimized by orders of magnitude by Elon.

1:11:44Do you know when he started Tesla with the Roadster, I was at a dinner with him, Larry Page, and the head of Fiat, and Elon was telling these stories. And he said, I started, or he didn't actually start Tesla, he came in and funded it initially, and then ultimately kicked out the founder and CEO and became the founder and CEO. But he said, the only reason I did it was because we believed that the Lotus body would work and the batteries would work and neither of them worked. And so I was so far in, I had to literally redesign it to make it work. So this is the optimism that gets an entrepreneur to start a company and then have to stick with it because they're so obligated by the capital they brought in and the time they've expended.

1:12:25Anyway.

1:12:26Dave Blundin:I have a couple other observations on Elon's management style that I think every entrepreneur should learn. I don't know. Do we have time? Yeah, why not? This is important for our listeners. Well, so Elon took the visionary integrator model that was pioneered by Eric Schmidt and Sergey and Larry, where Sergey and Larry were the visionaries. Eric Schmidt was the integrator. He'll tell you all day long that he dealt with everything that came up, but he never questioned the vision. Yes. And so that let Sergey and Larry think about the vision all day long. Elon took that to the next level where he said, okay, for every company that I'm doing, I need an integrator.

1:12:58Dave Blundin:I'm the visionary. You can't question. When I tell you we're going to have a Dyson swarm, you can't push back on that. You have to say, got it, boss. And then everything needs to happen from there on out. But we need to be exactly on the same page. You need to let me, Elon, take the limelight and promote the vision so that you have the time to do everything that's internal. So every one of his companies, he has that exact dynamic. And, you know, when you survey around, most people can't even name the integrator. But they're massive shareholders and they're all going to be billionaires and they're incredibly effective.

1:13:33Dave Blundin:And when they are on stage together, they're literally are kindred minds. Like there's no gap in the vision whatsoever. It's rare to get them on stage. I have seen him. I have seen him in a conversation with someone who dared to argue and question his approach, literally get tossed out in that moment instantly. No questions asked. Get out of here. You're done. All right. Alex, this is over to you. So the first open source AI physicist, Physical Superintelligence, PSI. Very exciting, Peter.

1:14:04Peter Diamandis:So this is a company that I helped found, Physical Superintelligence, with the goal of solving all of physics with AI. And in the past week, Physical Superintelligence, PSI, has launched this tool as an open source project called Get Physics Done, or GPD, that is an agentic super physicist. And it has seen wild adoption. Just in the past few days, the former chair of the Harvard Astronomy Department has recommended that everyone in the department, faculty, postdocs, students, all have to start using GPD to solve all of their physics problems. I've been you wouldn't believe the the crazy X DMs I'm getting I'm getting top VCs trying to get to me to to write checks to PSI which is a novelty they're blowing up my my inbox right now so nice I do think we're going to solve physics I've said in the past math is cooked PSI is cooking physics this is right now for dinner for dinner it's going to be charbroiled we're going to get, I think, solutions to some of the hardest problems in the physical world, physics, and applied physics over the next few years.

1:15:18Peter Diamandis:And PSI is focused on leveraging, as you and I, Peter, talked about in Solve Everything. Where do we aim that orbital laser beam at? What distribution of problems do we aim it at? And when we released Solve Everything, a lot of people in the comments were saying, I just want solutions to the hardest physics problems. Give me new physics. Arguably, there's been a drought of physics, new physics, since the early 1970s. I'll get maybe some hate mail from other physicists for suggesting that there's been a deficit of new physics for the past 50 years, but I would argue there has been. You can take it.

1:15:54Peter Diamandis:And so, yeah, I can handle it. So, so. Congratulations, Alex. Yeah, no, it's been wild. Where do people go to check it out, by the way? Yeah, go to psi.inc, psi.inc, and then there's a link to the GitHub. Download the repo, the GPD repo. It's all open source, Apache 2.0 licensed. Go to town with it, submit pull requests, submit issues, use it to solve your hardest problems. You'll like this one, Peter. One of the first reports that we got of usage, someone was using it to design a new rocket engine. Actually, they were using it to design a new rocket engine in fulfillment of the XPRIZE Foundation's new Future Vision XPRIZE.

1:16:35Peter Diamandis:I thought you were going to say a Chinese order. It's complete. GPD is being used to design starships for videos for that XPRIZE. That is beautiful.

1:16:48Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I have a couple of thoughts here. Yes. First, what's phenomenal about this is this makes science massively parallelized. And I think that's an incredible thing to do. It sure is. The key shift here, you're not really replacing physicists. You're actually radically exploding hypothesis throughput. Because you can now do that.

1:17:10Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Now, remember Eric Schmidt, I think, on stage said, you know, in the future, you're going to have the world's best physicist as an AI, and this could be in every lab in the world, right? Isn't that what you've just done here? Yes.

1:17:24Peter Diamandis:So that was the vision.

1:17:25Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:You're the integrator.

1:17:27Peter Diamandis:Okay. So I'm just the vehicle here, Salim. What can I say? No, no.

1:17:32Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:But you can't do squat without the integrator, right? I mean, this is incredible stuff. um it's true i mean this is going to compress like decades of research into years months we

1:17:44Peter Diamandis:we want the country you know dario talks of a country of geniuses in a data center but i i want a country of geniuses in a single physics lab not just in a single data center that's sort of siloed behind one company to radically democratize this lab i can exactly where was this when i was using GPD. That's awesome. In five minutes. And there are folks using this right now to work to achieve breakthrough results across a range of disciplines of physics. This is a huge congrats. This is called PhD thesis advisor. All right. Moving on, I'll share one of mine. We launched last week on this podcast, the Future Vision XPRIZE, which I guess has a submission from a rocket engine design as part of a starship.

1:18:35Watch for the rocket engine from GPD. In the first, we have had 1 ,000 entries from 15 countries. This competition is going to go through mid-August. So if you're a creative, if you want to create a three-minute film trailer for the movie you want produced, a hopeful, compelling vision of the future, please go to futurevisionxprize.com and register. Registration will be open for the next couple of months. We want to get the best filmmakers out there in the world taking this very seriously. Help us create the films that inspire us and our kids and the next generation. The next Star Trek, if you would.

1:19:12All right, three and a half million dollars. Hopefully soon four or five, six million dollars. I'm trying to make enough money in the pot maybe to make two films if we can. All right. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

1:19:23Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I have a little rant on this one. Please. So about a few years ago, there was an article that appeared, I think it was in salon.com, and it was titled The Worst Discovery About the Brain Ever or something like that. And what they did, of course, the title was very clickbaity, but what they did was they took people that had a deep political or religious belief and they gave them evidence that countered that belief. And they found three fascinating things happen. First, they rejected the evidence. Okay, that makes complete sense. Not surprising. But the second thing was somewhat surprising, which was in the act of rejecting the evidence it strengthened the belief system.

1:19:59Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Yes, yes. It was like a physics force. action reaction okay and they're like whoa that's weird but the third one was what led to the title of the article and depressed the hell out of him which was that it turned out the more mathematically literate you were the more likely you were to reject the evidence because you thought you knew okay and yeah really and this was like really like blew everybody's minds and it was a very and and the the the corollary to that and the outcome of that was a deep understanding the only way to shift somebody's perspective is in the use of narrative because we are storytelling animals that's why this prize is so important because you want that positive vision given by say science fiction is the only place we've had it so this is such a great prize i'm so like so proud of you i'm so excited to see so please everybody if you're a creative you know someone is a filmmaker wants to be a filmmaker have them register we want as many people this is about demonetizing the ability to do this and actually optimizing the stories that are going to be told out there.

1:21:03Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:We make the mistake of referencing science fiction as entertainment, but it's not. It's like pre-implementation architecture. It's R &D. Great point. It's R &D. It's future R &D. R &D. Like Alex does this all the time. He's going, look, project forward, Dyson Swarm, This is where we're going to go. So this is where we need to think in that way. It's architecture. Peter showed a great video clip.

1:21:30Dave Blundin:If you go back one podcast for us to the A360 live stage event, Peter did a great video clip that shows why this is so important that exactly reconciles with what Salim just said. And he showed, like, you know, here's the phone. Here's the – all this stuff was invented in Star Trek. And we made it reality because the vision was imparted through movies. We could have made some totally different reality if we wanted to, but the movies are massively important for deciding what we build. And now with AI as a workforce, we can build almost anything. So this is a really important project for that reason.

1:22:06Dave Blundin:We're missing the warp drive.

1:22:07Peter Diamandis:Someone needs to fix the warp drive. We need wormholes.

1:22:11Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Teleporter, please, teleporter. You get the transmitter for free if you have the warp drive. We have to complete the second half of Star Trek. And we're about to speed run it, right, Alex? So we're going to get there. That's right. So if you want to hang out with the Moonshot mates and Ray Kurzweil, here's your chance. I announced this last about three weeks ago on May 4th. And yes, may the 4th be with you. We're going to have a special event. Anyone who buys 100 copies of We Are His Gods, you're invited to spend the afternoon with Dave, AWG, myself, maybe Salim, and Stephen Kotler. We're going to be having a great session with Ray Kurzweil there.

1:22:49and we announced this 90 of the 100 spots are gone. So if you want one of the last 10 spots, go to weareasgodsbook.com slash 100 and you can grab one of those spots, spend the afternoon with us, get 100 copies of the book to give away. I'm gonna also get Ray to give us some of his last book called The Singularity is Nearer and it'll be an amazing afternoon at, where's it gonna be, Dave?

1:23:16Dave Blundin:Ah, at Link Studio in our palatial office right here. Yes, we're going to hold it at One Kendall in Cambridge with Dave as our host. It's going to be an amazing event. We'll have a Moonshots podcast live at that time. We'll have some meet and greets, some photo sessions with all of us. It'll be fun. Salim, you've got to fly up from New York.

1:23:38Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I may have to take in a cellar gut help me, but yeah. two quick thoughts here two quick pointers to the readers and viewers and listeners one, do not miss buying We Are As Gods, it really isn't you guys did a book reading at the summit, Peter it was amazing I've had so many people come up and talk to me about that particular conversation it really blew everybody's minds and The Similarity Is Near Ur is an amazing book it really is incredible absolutely worth reading it's like must read for this world right? Both of these. All right. Let's jump into the energy world. The bottom line here is the world is going nuclear in a good way, in a good way.

1:24:20So Morgan Stanley, in a report recently, announced there's a power shortfall for 20 % of the data centers. Now, the minimum they had was 13 gigawatts. They also said it could be as much of a shortfall of 44 gigawatts through 2028. This is the bottom line. We need more energy. And here's what we're seeing. I find this very compelling. Let's give you a couple of these slides here. Illinois is lifting nuclear bans. I mean, we shot ourselves in the foot here in the United States when we started turning off our nuclear reactors, ended up banning them in different areas. So there's a moratorium that's being ended on nuclear reactors over 300 megawatts.

1:25:04What else is going on in the world? Meta announces a nuclear energy project. They've secured 6.6 gigawatts of clean power for 2035. They've partnered with TerraPower. What else is going on? Well, Japan has restarted the world's largest nuclear power plant. This is TEPCO is restarting reactor number six. It's going to support 20 % of Japan's electric needs by 2040. And then finally, we're seeing Samsung is putting up floating small modular reactors. So these are basically offshore ships that are generating nuclear power for desalination and onshore power. Gentlemen, nuclear is back. Comments?

1:25:52Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I saw a startup last week that is doing literally micronuclear on the back of a pickup truck. That's incredible. We've been running nuclear submarines for 50 years without a problem. I mean, this is very doable.

1:26:05Dave Blundin:I wouldn't say without a problem, but your point's well taken. No major accidents. Oh, no, they don't talk about them. So, you know, so AI is becoming the top political cover for getting nuclear back online. It's no longer climate change and we need renewables. It's we need AI. So all, you know, all handcuffs off. Go, go, go. Yeah, well, look, the technology has moved forward so much. And it is incredibly – it's much safer than coal. It's much safer than the replacements, you know, oil. So it's clearly a good choice. But this is a serious PR problem within technology in general. Like what if it wasn't safe?

1:26:46Dave Blundin:Well, we did it. Well, now it's really safe. Well, we're not doing it. Like, oh, my God. We got to make better decisions somehow. Something has to change. But anyway, it's the right thing to do.

1:26:57Peter Diamandis:In For All Mankind, what one of my favorite television shows, we see this alternative history. Season 5 is coming up. Season five is coming out. It's very exciting. Mars goes to war with Earth. Very exciting. In For All Mankind, we see an alternative history where progress on fission, especially, and then ultimately fusion by the early 90s never went stale. It was never abandoned for decades. I think we're about to live a real-life version of those intermediate decades from the For All Mankind timeline where we just speedrun all of the fission deployment advances that should have been happening from the 70s through the present with AI merely as the most reasonable excuse or provocation for doing it.

1:27:41Peter Diamandis:But really, one can't help but imagine what would society and what would the economy have been like if we had actually consistently pushed forward fission and then fusion deployment much, much earlier. I think we probably would be a good deal wealthier as a civilization. I agree. Energy scales directly with GDP of a country, with the health of a country, the education of a country, more energy is more better. And by the way, to our listeners, if you've not watched seasons one, two, three, and four of For All Mankind, it is worth binge watching. And this is from someone who doesn't watch TV, but it's amazing.

1:28:17Dave Blundin:It's really good.

1:28:18Peter Diamandis:We get, without spoiling it, like humanity gets Mars colonies by the early nineties. And asteroid mining. And asteroid mining. And civil rights happening decades earlier than they happened in our timeline. It's incredible. This episode is brought to you by Blitzy, autonomous software development with infinite code context. Blitzy uses thousands of specialized AI agents that think for hours to understand enterprise-scale code bases with millions of lines of code. Engineers start every development sprint with the Blitzy platform, bringing in their development requirements. The Blitzy platform provides a plan, then generates and pre-compiles code for each task, Blitzy delivers 80 % or more of the development work autonomously, while providing a guide for the final 20 % of human development work required to complete the sprint.

1:29:12Enterprises are achieving a 5x engineering velocity increase when incorporating Blitzy as their pre-IDE development tool, pairing it with their coding copilot of choice to bring an AI-native SDLC into their org. Ready to 5x your engineering velocity? Visit Blitzy.com to schedule a demo and start building with Blitzy today. All right, let's jump into robotics. So this is a fascinating article. Travis, the founder of Uber, is debuting Atoms, digitizing the world. So here's what's going on. His mission is physical automation to transform industries and move the world. And he uses his analogy, he says, you know, in the computer world, what we've seen is CPUs manipulate bits.

1:30:02You know, there's storage for storing the bits and networks for transmitting the bits. In the physical world, he's trying to make sort of atoms, you know, atom-based computers. And the equivalent here for his atom-based computers, the CPU equivalent is manufacturing, which is manipulating atoms like CPUs manipulate bits. It's storage. The equivalent is real estate. And transportation is the equivalent of the network. So he's basically building systems that are able to manipulate food, mining, and robotics. This was secret for him for the last two years. In fact, he had all of his employees under strict NDAs.

1:30:46They couldn't say what they were doing. He just announced it this week. And he's an extraordinary CEO. And I can't wait to see what he does with this. Have you guys read up on the story?

1:30:56Peter Diamandis:Not at all. I have. And I think it's interesting. I think it's probably an inevitable expansion. So the original premise of his sort of follow-up act to Uber was taking advantage of the ghost kitchen or cloud kitchen trends that people were in part inspired by Uber. They were having fewer and fewer direct interactions with restaurants. They were ordering delivery from restaurants. And the premise of the cloud kitchens is, well, maybe if most restaurant orders are happening via an app, physical restaurants don't need to exist anymore. You could make lots of fictitious restaurants that are so-called cloud kitchens or ghost kitchens that exist only in name and in menu, but not in terms of a physical presence.

1:31:41Peter Diamandis:And that might yield economies of scale and diversity of meals and all of that. But that's sort of a narrow market. It's a low margin market in some ways. And at the same time, we've, as an economy and as a technology industry, moved well beyond the gig economy. I don't want to say fad, but it was very fashionable for a while for new startups to be the Uber of X. And now I think if you want to to have not a moat, but if you want to have at least the perception that you have some sustainable differentiation for a few years, you have to have a robotics and or AI story, but increasingly AI in the physical world story.

1:32:28Peter Diamandis:And that's what Travis has done here. So by generalizing from ghost slash cloud kitchens to robotics for a variety of other sort of abstracted spaces, I think it's a very natural generalization. It's also a very fundable generalization, whereas ghost kitchens arguably is much more niche. He's basically automating every element. He's manipulating atoms versus bits. the food side of the equation agreed. He calls it building a food computer, right? His entire system is a food computer where the food, the atoms of food are being manipulated by his manufacturing. Then they're stored and then they're transported just like a CPU and a memory and network manipulate bits in a computer.

1:33:25He's gonna do the same thing with mining. You know, his goal is to go after rare earth metals, but strategic metals, right? And revitalize the mining industry. Probably something with boring corporation along the way. And then on the robotic side, he's not going after multi-armed robots, Salim. He's going after wheelbases for robots. We'll see. I'm sure he's going to sort of parallelize multiple dematerializations or digitizations of physical things in the world. So it's a much larger addressable market than just cloud kitchens.

1:33:59Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:The minute you're saying wheels, you step into my frame because that's not legs. The wheels are way, way better. I've been getting some fun tweets. Last one was from Mike Hawley, I think, who sent me a six-arm, tweeted a six-arm robot at me going, there you go. That's really great. So thanks for all the readers. Every time there's a multi-arm robot, they're going, sleep, here it is.

1:34:21Peter Diamandis:It's also sort of a weird future where the robots that he had been developing for cloud kitchens are now being applied to mining. Can you imagine a robotic system for kitchens now digging dirt? But that's nonetheless the future that we find ourselves in where he's radically expanding his addressable market. AWG, story number two, the first American professional robotics sports league. Making the news, not just reporting the news. So thank you, Peter, for allowing a little bit of space here. So this is actually just launched in the past 24 hours. This morning. Yeah. This is a company, a professional robotics league, Pro-RL, that is launching, really solving a problem that the country and arguably the West faces, which is that last year China had run world robotic games and a robotic humanoid robotic half marathon.

1:35:25Peter Diamandis:And China is using the spectacle of public robotic and public humanoid robotic sports as a way to improve, almost to shape industrial policy and to sell the public on pervasive robotic systems in a variety of applications in public spaces. and the US and the West have nothing like this. And I think this is sort of the linchpin for helping to keep the West, not just competitive with China when it comes to robotic deployments, but to leapfrogging China. Right now, arguably the West could be doing a much better job in terms of deployment of humanoid robots to a variety of professions. And I think given our society's obsession with sports in particular and the spectacle of public athletics, So introducing humanoid and quadruped robots as sporting contestants is one of the best ways to inject robots into a variety of different public domains.

1:36:24Peter Diamandis:So what ProRL is doing, this is next month, the weekend of the Boston Marathon in the Boston Seaport, holding America's, this country, America's first professional robotics sports league competition. It's going to be a 50-meter race in the seaport with a variety of humanoid and, Salim, quadruped, not all humanoid, robots competing. And ideally, this becomes then the kickoff for a broader movement for really to do in America what China has done. This is a little bit of catch-up-type growth to inject humanoid and non-humanoid. I want real steel. I want real steel. That's right. I want megabots battling it out.

1:37:13Let's make it happen.

1:37:16Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I have a prediction here that may not sound great. I'm all for it, by the way. Just so you know, I think this is awesome. But, you know, human beings love watching other human beings. They love seeing the failing and the last-minute drama on the field. Can you hit that buzzer beater to win the seventh game? It's about the human drama of it. I think if you put a bunch of robots running, I think it'll be amazing for the initial, but I don't think people will persist in watching for that reason.

1:37:51Peter Diamandis:But let's see. Let's hope. Yeah, I think there's an enormous hunger for autonomous and semi-autonomous robotic competitions. and we see drone leagues and we see a friend of the pod, Dean Kamen's first competition. I think there's an enormous hunger for semi-autonomous and fully autonomous competitions. And really, I think this solves an important social problem. I would just encourage those who are watching, either come to Boston at the weekend of the marathon and go watch. If you have robots, if you're a university team, go right to ProRL and enter the competition before it's not too late. What's the URL for them?

1:38:32Peter Diamandis:Yeah, it's pro-rl.com. All right, on the robot front, Amazon's Zoox RoboTaxi is rolling out in Las Vegas this year with plans to roll out in LA in 2027, another Uber partnership. So Uber is just stacking them up. Uber just announced with Rivian, a partnership. They have one with a huge number of platforms. Of course, we had Dara on stage, and he wants to play with everybody. This looks like a party mobile for Las Vegas. I think this is bring your champagne and your party with you on Amazon Zoox. It's a really clever move by Uber. If you look at the full history of Uber's attempts to go autonomous, including the infamous lawsuits surrounding trade secrets passing around relating to what ultimately became Waymo.

1:39:27Peter Diamandis:I think this is a very clever move by Uber to position itself as a platform above and across lots of different vendors for robotaxis, all the while probably working on its nth generation of first-party robotaxis. It wants to be a neutral platform for aggregating demands. It's an aggregator for autonomy. If the strategy works and Uber is able to position itself as the definitive aggregator for autonomy, then I have to expect that this will generalize beyond robotaxis to robots, to humanoid robots as well, at which point this becomes Uber. And Dara potentially positions this as an enormous, enormous play.

1:40:06Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I thought Dara talking about this on stage was incredibly clever, where they're becoming an agnostic platform for all things where anybody can plug in and be part of that communications transportation network. So I think this is really amazing. And by the way, we've released and or will be releasing the Eric Schmidt conversation that Dave and I had at opening and then the conversation that Salim and I had with Dara. So that's going to be on the Moonshots channel. So look for both of those conversations. This is over to you, Salim. So this is from a friend, Jason Kalkanis, J-Cal from the All In podcast.

1:40:46and he coined the phrase, the corporate singularity. Amazon will be the first to reach a corporate singularity where there are more robots than there are humans.

1:40:56Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Yeah, so two things here. One, by the way, huge fan of All In. They do an amazing job summarizing what's going on around the world. I've known Jake Health since the New York days. He's absolutely right. I mean, I think this is not hard for Amazon though, right? Because when you're doing logistics, It makes absolute sense over time to have way more robots than human beings. They're going to be much faster, they'll roll better, et cetera, et cetera. I won't get into that. So I think that's right. I do, if you shift into general knowledge work, right, as Alex has said, knowledge work is cooked. Once we get to what I'm calling the organizational singularity, which we have now, once we start pervading through that, I think my current assessment is any company will be run by between 20 to 25 % of the current employee base.

1:41:44Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Of course, we'll create five times more companies, so I'm not worried about the job side. And you do oversight and exception handling and much more value-added work than currently doing audit financials once a month and making sure you complete the month type of thing. But this I would expect to see from an Amazon perspective. In fact, it would be weird if it was not happening type of thing that the number of robots radically outstrips the number of human beings over time. And we'll see this, of course, in Uber and so many other companies as well. Let's jump into our last segment here, which is the economy.

1:42:18A lot of important things happening that are worth discussing. I want to open up with a short 60-second video. So I had the chance to have a conversation to close out the 2026 Abundance Summit with Elon Musk. And I asked him about UHI, again, universal high income. And this conversation was very telling. I'd like to play it and then for us to talk about it.

1:42:41Dave Blundin:Yeah. Basically, AI and robots are going to make so much stuff and provide so many services that they will actually run out of things to do for the humans.

1:42:52Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:They'll just run out of things to do for the humans. And then they, you know, there's only so much that humans can even express that they want.

1:43:01Dave Blundin:so you go back to my example of like if you go a million times greater than the earth's economy you you've long since saturated all human desire

1:43:13Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:uh you know like maybe like even if you go a thousand times more than our current economy thousand times you you probably have already saturated saturated human anything people can think of that they want.

1:43:26Dave Blundin:That's almost word for word out of the Ian Banks culture series. What are we talking about here? We're having robots and AIs coming to you like, Salim, is there anything else I can get you? What else would you like? Would you like a Ferrari? Would you like a grilled cheese sandwich? Would you like a, you know, it's like, there's people begging you to give them direction on what you'd like. Listen, there's downsides to that, right?

1:43:48Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I've been in some of the five-star hotels in India where there's like 14 waiters around you and you're like, just leave me alone for God's sake. I've got everything I need. So there is a downside. But I think the vision here is very powerful. And I love the fact that he's thinking at that level. This is, I think, the most powerful. By the way, Peter, loved your T-shirt. Thank you. You wore Monetize Hope as the T-shirt for that. That was so great. It was fun. It was fun. I want to comment on UHI just for a second. People kind of conflate the two. But UBI is a floor, whereas UHI is a share of the upside.

1:44:22Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:And I think you want to have both over time. So do you protect society in both levels? I've got a paper I'm going to publish probably tomorrow, which is from UBI to UHI in three steps where I outline what I believe are the mechanisms we get there. But this is an important – this framing by Elon I think is very important about how do we get to UHI. In other words, if we reduce everything to the cost of electricity and materials because AI and robotics are providing it eventually nanotechnology and you can have anything you want, then any amount of money makes you wealthy. And that's his vision.

1:45:02And I think by stating and structuring it this way, I think he makes a compelling argument for it. Yeah.

1:45:07Dave Blundin:It ties together a bunch of things from this podcast too. You heard Sam Altman say, look, we're 1 ,000x cheaper compute. it's coming down another thousand X. And you heard Peter earlier in the podcast say, like the enterprises have figured out what to do with that. It's basically automate everything and have it turn to profit. But the consumer hasn't figured out what to do. They're like, hey, AI, check the Red Sox score for me. And so it's not using the compute. Somebody is going to figure out how to tie together the compute with happiness or the compute with a sense of purpose. And it's going to use a lot more GPUs, but they're so cheap.

1:45:43Dave Blundin:who cares and that is going to be a critical thing to invent within the next year because otherwise it's just chaos you know like that somebody has to be able to walk into a room in their house which is their ai room their holodeck and come out a happy changed capable functional

1:46:01Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:person with ai as an assistant you are beautiful i agree yeah just just absolutely and so important what i really the other thing to point out is he's really painting the picture of what abundance looks like, right? And Peter, you've been talking about this forever. Everything, everywhere, all at once. And note what we're doing today. We're printing money today against scarcity, right? You get inflation. If you distribute value against abundance, you get stability. And so that's what we need more of.

1:46:30Peter Diamandis:I think Elon's also underestimating at least slightly the ability for human desires to grow proportionally with the supply of capabilities. One can imagine a future, I don't know, and decades from now where we've built the Dyson Swarm and now Jevons Paradox style, the demands for individual human happiness are so wildly disproportionately large relative to where they are now. I don't know. Everyone gets their own planet or something. And it really does require – we don't actually ever saturate the capabilities that naive scaling of automation propose. for all of our 14-year-olds.

1:47:12Dave Blundin:Those Ian Banks books really deal with that exact topic beautifully. And I'm sure, Alex, you've read them all. I know Elon read them too, actually, because he was quoting them. You know what? I just spoke to somebody today, AWG, who is in discussions with the team who have the rights to Accelerando to make that movie. but one of the things that I love is all of the video models that are coming out you're going to be able to feed any of your favorite books that have not been made into movies and say make this into a movie for me and star these individuals or these family members that's going to be awesome continuing on a piece of not so good news but it's important for us to have our eyes open about this this is computer science placement collapses This is from a professor who opened up his books over the last three years on placements and opening salaries.

1:48:09This is from a tweet by TechLayoffTracker. So fall of 2023, 89 % of his students were getting placed with a$94 ,000 salary. Spring of 24, 71%. Fall of 24, 43%. Spring of 25, 31%. And now this spring, 19 % placed at a salary below$61 ,000. And the quote here is decimating. It says, these kids mortgaged their future for careers that evaporated while they were in class.

1:48:40Peter Diamandis:That's brutal. Wow. It's brutal. It's not wrong. I've seen this anecdotally in everyday life. On the other hand, I would argue if you're a computer science, a recent computer science graduate, go do a startup. It's never been a better time. You've never been empowered. Of course. But the point here, Alex, is we're going to start to see this in a multitude of different areas. Medical school, lawyers, right? Accountants. Accountants. You know, it's something that the world needs to be aware of. And yeah, I mean, one thing I'm happy about is when I ask my kids now what do they want to be, you know, in their 20s, they say they want to be an entrepreneur.

1:49:24They want to start a company. It's like, hallelujah. And we've said it so many times. Dave, you made this point over and over again, right? The only career of the future is being an entrepreneur. It's not for everybody, but it's probably, yeah. Oh, it is for everybody.

1:49:38Dave Blundin:If you're not a founder, just join somebody else. It is for everybody. There's no other path forward. Look at that number, 19 % placed. Like if you say, well, let me go to grad school and sleep through the singularity, as Alex is telling you not to do, you are absolutely screwing yourself. You need to get on cap tables. and all, you know, we're going to have massive wealth, you know, 10x economic growth in Elon's number, 10x in 10 years. Where's it all going to go? It's going to go either into equities. So you got to be a shareholder in something or into physical assets and or you need to buy stuff, but it's not going into W2 paychecks.

1:50:13Dave Blundin:Look at the data right in front of you. Buy a data center. By the way, Yes, don't put the money in your 401k. This paradigm. Sorry, go ahead.

1:50:22Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I'm renting. This paradigm, we've seen this. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. We've seen this paradigm for a while coming. Because a few years ago, something huge happened, maybe seven, eight years ago, where with GitHub and the ability to do peer-to-peer review of each other's code, they've gamified it. So there's a meritocracy ranking of GitHub developers. Well, when you look at salaries in Silicon Valley over the last few years, your salary has nothing to do with the university you went to, the degree you got, the grades you got. It's 100%. What is your GitHub rating? So a peer-to-peer meritocracy has completely replaced the top-down credentialing.

1:51:03Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:And that meant from that point on, which is about six, seven years ago, the value of a computer science degree is zero. And so that will happen and start to happen all over the place. And one thing I need to go find and maybe show on the next pod is the bankruptcy rates for colleges in the United States are skyrocketing. Great one. I mean, who wants to get$100 ,000,$200 ,000 in debt for a degree that's not going to be useful? And again, we've shown the stat here on the pod that the group in the United States, the group that's out of work the longest are recent college graduates. Insane.

1:51:38Peter Diamandis:The ladder's been pulled up, but the flip side of that is go build startups. There's a window of time to go do that. The aphorism, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. and what's on the menu right now is the cooked knowledge work. So you want to be the one cooking the knowledge work with startups and other forms of work.

1:51:56Dave Blundin:Yes, there's room for everybody too. You don't need to necessarily be the founder. You can join or you can seed invest or you can be a connector like John Warner where you're like, hey, I'm just helping you. We're an advisor. Alex must advise, I don't know, a thousand companies by now. You can do that. There's always a way to help them succeed. Just get on the cap table. Get stuck. If you're a mom or a dad watching this podcast, show your kids these numbers, right? Help them understand that, you know, high school to get into a good college, to get a degree and then a job is cooked, is gone. Their job is to find their purpose, their passion, to learn some of the technologies, become an expert in a problem space.

1:52:39Don't even be an expert in the tech and join a startup team, create your own future, Become a creator, not a consumer. Really important.

1:52:49Dave Blundin:Just listen to Peter. And you have to tune out everyone around you who doesn't get it. Because there's so much bad advice out there. And like go to San Francisco and hang out near Mission Bay for two days. Like pay whatever it takes. It's only 300 bucks to get an airline ticket. Go hang out near Mission Bay. Talk to everyone there. Yeah, go to coffee shops. And you'll be like, oh my God. And then go back to wherever you came from and tune everybody else out. Just listen to what Peter just said. Listen to Alex. Listen to Salim. And tune everyone else because everyone's like, well, you know, I don't know.

1:53:23Dave Blundin:These things blow over. They're cyclical. Like, oh, God, you're giving such bad advice. It ain't called a singularity for nothing.

1:53:32Peter Diamandis:What did you think? The singularity was just vibes? All right. On that note, Alex. So Alex sent me this note this morning. He goes, did you see this? Trump's office registers aliens.gov website. You're kidding. Alex. Kid you not, Newsweek covering this. So this is the latest in a string of items. I am admittedly following this very closely. It started - As am I, I love this. Started in 2017 with the Leslie Keene article in New York Times, followed by multiple House and Senate hearings, witnesses alleging an 80-year-plus program, probably, if the allegations are accurate, a highly illegal program, followed by, most recently last year, we covered on the pod a documentary called The Age of Disclosure.

1:54:27Peter Diamandis:Again, 35-plus whistleblowers and high government officials, current and former, alleging that there has been a highly illegal program over the past 80-plus years to recover, to retrieve crashed UAPs. Fast forwarding to the events of the past month or two with former President Obama saying aliens are real. And then President Trump going on air on Air Force One to reporters saying that former President Obama was breaking the law by admitting that aliens were real and revealing classified information. Fast forwarding to President Trump, then very publicly issuing an executive order for executive agencies to start declassifying information in connection with UAPs and non-human intelligence.

1:55:24Peter Diamandis:Fast forwarding now to the past 48 or 72 hour news cycle of the White House registering aliens.gov, an official domain name, presumably for... Alex, prediction, please. Prediction. When are we going to get a disclosure from the White House? And will anyone actually care back to the evening news and our sports scores after the aliens have been disclosed? The second half of the question, Peter, is far easier to predict. People will lose interest after one or two days and ask, you know, who's winning at whatever inane 20th century kinetic sport and will lose all interest if it doesn't impact their paycheck, they won't have the attention span.

1:56:08Peter Diamandis:The first sub-question, I think, is a much more interesting question. If there's a there there and this administration has something non-trivial to say on the subject, non-obvious, based on everything I'm hearing and reading, it sounds like the White House is preparing to say something interesting on the subject in the next few months. I heard like June. I'm not sure if that's the case. There are rumors of July. There are rumors of the summer, sometime in the next few months. You don't stand up a domain name with such a provocative name without preparing to say something interesting on a relatively short timescale.

1:56:50All right, well, brought this to you today, to our listeners, as shall we say an interesting twist to close out the stories. Let's go to one of our favorite -

1:57:02Peter Diamandis:One more interesting thing on this, Peter, if I may. So after Abundance Summit, which was, of course, incredible, I was hanging out at a bunch of family office events in Palm Beach and in Miami. The number one question, all of these billion-dollar, and I know many of them are listening to this. They're all fans of the pod, by the way. Centimillion and billion-dollar family offices have. the number one question that they all have for me is, tell us something interesting about aliens. Are aliens real? Is this whole UAP thing real? That's like the number one topic on their mind right now. It's not AI.

1:57:38Peter Diamandis:They're very interested in AI as well. It's not China. It's not geopolitics. It's the aliens question. So I don't know if it's something that's in the air or what, but - I'm convinced. I'm convinced. I think it's ridiculous to believe that in this universe, even in this galaxy, that we are alone. And in fact, I think they've been here for a long time and they can easily hide from us using any technology that's more than 30 years more advanced than where we are today. So can't wait to meet them. I'm excited the fact that they're here exactly when we're reaching ASI.

1:58:12Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:It always bugs me that every photograph of a so-called saucer - That was Elon's excuse. Is always super blurry and vague. I can't even make any details. I was like, why is that in the age of high definition? There's a theory as to why that. I got it. That's what Elon said. I got it. Yeah. They're warping space time around them. It's not going to be clear. Okay. Let's move on, please.

1:58:36Peter Diamandis:Salim, you expected warp bubbles to be transparent? What are you thinking?

1:58:39Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I guess. Yeah, I'm so naive. All right. Onwards to one of our favorite parts of the pod, which is our AMA questions with the Moonshot mates. So as always, gentlemen, we'll go around the horn, pick your favorite question, and we'll go from there. Salim, you want to kick it off? Well, I touched on UHI and UBI earlier. So the question number four is, will someone explain UBI, UHI? If everyone has money, how does it retain its value, right? And let me – the basic idea here is that the economy is generating so much productivity that we won't need to work for a living going forward. If you went back 10 ,000 years ago, we're all working 20 hours a day in the fields just to put three meals on the table.

1:59:27Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:We've steadily shrunk the amount needed to earn a livable wage in France of legally 35 hours in theory, which always gets violated. But that number should shrink as we have robots doing a ton of work, et cetera, et cetera. And when there's so much productivity being delivered by the technology aspect of it, it means that we have a huge windfall. And that windfall can be distributed as a universal basic income, right? And so this is very powerful. The winning countries are going to be those ones that implement this effectively and move to something like this earlier rather than later. The problem is moving from a taxation, job, labor, union structure to a UHI, UBI, such a big one.

2:00:13Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:We have no confidence, frankly, in public sector in getting us there. So we have to kind of figure out some other path. And we heard what you had. But some version of sovereign AI funds or compute commons or global dividend mechanisms are going to be there. Because if intelligence becomes the new oil, then we can't allow the, you know, the geopolitical map can't concentrate all the upside in like a couple of capitals from there. And that one came from at Clyde.artwork. Alex, over to you.

2:00:43Peter Diamandis:I'll take the softball question number three, which is, what do you think will be a more impactful technology, digital AI or physical AI? This is from Matthew Johnson, 6525. It's a softball question on multiple levels. One, because physical AI, which has become arguably the modern euphemism for robotics, requires digital AI, which I construe as sort of foundation models that exist as pure software but without any physical embodiment. We're leveraging all of the foundation model technology from the likes of Chad GPT or Claude in the form of additional modalities like robotic modalities, so-called vision language action models, to solve physical AI, a.k.a.

2:01:28Peter Diamandis:robotics. So strictly speaking, physical AI is a technological superset of digital AI. At the same time, if you look at the American services economy, approximately two-thirds of all services income or services revenue requires some form of physical or manual action and can't be conducted as pure knowledge work. In which case, even at the macroeconomic level, physical AI is at least double the market opportunity of purely digital or knowledge work oriented AI. So in short, physical AI is the more impactful technology. By far, I think.

2:02:06Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:I agree.

2:02:07Peter Diamandis:Dave. All right.

2:02:10Dave Blundin:I'll take number one, which is also from the same, I think, Matthew Johnson 6525. This one I want to take because it's very close to home. What do you think will be the last job to be automated? So I've got a lot of people that I dearly love that work spreadsheets, SQL queries, write code, do UI. and all of those things are going to be done by AI starting at the end of this year. And I think what's different is if you had a job before and you lost that job, you would go work somewhere else. This is different in that AI will do that forever here forward. So you're going to have to do something different.

2:02:47Dave Blundin:All of our employees and companies are shareholder. Everyone's a shareholder. So economically, everyone should be in very good shape, especially if those stocks go way, way up, which I think they will. But that doesn't give you something to do. My advice is I think the last job to be automated will be government jobs. Also, other similar things like university jobs and so forth. They'll continue to pay people for many years to come because that's their nature. And so if you are no longer doing what you were doing and you have plenty of money or enough money, but you want to do something and you can't find something, definitely win the race to getting those jobs.

2:03:29Dave Blundin:I think the way it's going to play out is China passed a law a few weeks ago saying, if you lay somebody off because AI automated their job, you must spend time and money retraining them to be an AI user. That'll happen in the U.S. very soon, but it's going to roll out in one state first. And when it rolls out in whatever state, everyone in all the other states is going to race to fire people before the law passes in their state too. Wow. Wow. So there's going to be, yeah, so get ahead of it, man. If you have like, one of our former CEOs is now working at the Better Business Bureau here in the state and loving it.

2:04:03Dave Blundin:So there's opportunities all over it. So anyway, short answer would be the last job to be automated is going to be government jobs. I don't think I ever would have thought to say that on a podcast before in my life, but it's just the reality. I want to add to that. I think it's going to be jobs requiring genuine human connection and empathy and creativity. I want to add the human element there. I'll take the next one. Also from Matthew Johnson, 6525. Either Matthew was very prolific or we copied and pasted it too many times. His name here. How do you define the meaning of life and how does technology help us achieve it?

2:04:38So, you know, we talk about this. We talk about having a massive transformative purpose and your meaning is coming from your heart, not necessarily your head. And for me, meaning comes from, you know, positively impacting a billion people, making the world a better place. And technology is the mechanism by we dematerialize, demonetize, and democratize these products and services and help solve grand challenges. So, you know, I love helping entrepreneurs create, you know, these hopeful futures, build extraordinary things. And I get my meaning out of that. And so it will be unique to everybody. but I think ultimately the single most important thing everyone needs to do is find their purpose.

2:05:22Find your MTP. All right, let's go on. We have four more questions and they're not all from Matthew. So that's good. Salim. I will take, let me see here.

2:05:37Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Let me take. Don't take six. That's pointed at me. So I'll do it. Okay. Why don't you do that? No, but go ahead, pick one. Okay, I'll take nine. That one's aimed at me, Salim. Yeah, I won't take nine. I didn't take the meaning of life one either because it's like I'm kind of running workshops on that. I'll take number seven. If AI will end poverty, when will we see the signs and what will they be? This is from at vin.handle. I think you'll see the sign first in cost curves rather than headlines. You know, when energy gets cheaper, when education becomes effectively, medical expertise is kind of accessible, that's when you'll see it.

2:06:16Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:When a person with AI can build what we're seeing today that used to take an entire department, that is like a game changer. That's when you start shifting poverty from being fate to being a design problem, right? The real indicators are falling marginal costs, because then the essentials of life become very abundant, frankly, and easy access. us. Poverty ends when capability becomes widely distributed. And that's what we talk about when we think about abundance, abundance of opportunity. It's an abundance of capability. So we'll start to see that. And we're kind of there now. I mean, anybody with a smartphone can use AI to run a business now.

2:06:54Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:It's like kind of incredible. So we'll be able to start to see a lot of that. Dave, over to you.

2:07:01Dave Blundin:I love number one or number six on this page from Sherilyn 381. How do the three human drives Peter mentioned, fear, curiosity and greed factor with AI billionaires funding UBI? Will greed give way to fear when civil unrest threatens them? Short answer is yes, and it already has. Now, when you're describing AI billionaires here, you might be thinking in the back of your mind, Elon and Sam. But a lot of the AI billionaires, specifically Dario, Demis Asabas, they got into AI the exact same reason I did back when I was 14 years old. Not because they want to become a billionaire, but because it's going to change our lives more than anything in the history of the world.

2:07:42Dave Blundin:And it could go very well or very badly. And I want to be there to try and shape it toward good. And Dario and Demas are the most good-natured people that you could ever possibly imagine. And they have already given way to fear of civil unrest. And everything they do is not about trying to make more billions. They have more money than they ever hoped to have, more than they could ever spend. They're not greedy at all. They are incredibly concerned about how this is going to go. Agreed. So it already has happened, and the answer is absolutely yes. So there's lots of hope in that. Alex?

2:08:19Peter Diamandis:All right, number nine has my name on it, literally. Is uploading your consciousness really you or just a digital twin? Asked by my namesake, Alex Amador, HP1CR. Okay, this is the sort of classic late-night dorm room hall question. Is it really you or not? It's been asked in a thousand different variants. I'm going to construe this question in particular as being related to a news story, a pretty, I think, incredible announcement from a company that I helped found, Eon Systems, that announced now two-ish weeks ago the successful what we'd characterize as a whole brain emulation of a fruit fly that demonstrated multiple behaviors, a world first.

2:09:07Peter Diamandis:But let's extrapolate this. I would say fully realized uploading is really going to be you. We're not there yet. It's not imminent. But in a fully realized uploading technology stack, maybe in the style of what friend of the pod Ray Kurzweil or what Hans Moravec would envision, where you replace neurons one by one with technological substitutes or some other variant thereof, some ship of Theseus incremental upload, yes, it's really going to be you. There are a bunch of missing X factors. We don't have all the science yet. We don't have all the biophysics or the neuroscience yet. But my expectation is it really will be you, not just a copy of you, not just a perfect or imperfect facsimile of you.

2:10:00Peter Diamandis:However, and again, there's a lot of missing science here. We don't arguably truly understand the biology or the biophysics of consciousness yet. But even when we do, I would reasonably expect that an incremental upload that replaces your brain one part by one part will ultimately result in a consciousness that is continuously transferred and really is you. I'm waiting for that moment when I'm uploaded and there's a voice out of the speaker. It says, Peter, I'm up here. You can kill yourself now. See, I think that's the future that we don't want and people get scared by those scenarios. Request for a debate topic, but some other time.

2:10:38All right, number eight comes from poetry to song. What is the potential for super AI to greatly change the patent system and copyright practices? They are cooked. So, I mean, I had a conversation, I remember, with Astro Teller and Steve Jurvetson at Singularity early on. And we're talking about when we have ASI, if you're a company, depending on patents to protect yourself, you're like, you're dead. You're just, you know, there's no protection there because what happens is you have your product, you put it out. And ASI will basically invent around it in microseconds and put out a new variation of it, right?

2:11:18So we're going to have to reinvent this process. When AI can generate millions of novel inventions overnight, patents really become meaningless. We're going to need to have a new framework like going from who invented it first to who deployed it first at scale. So I think we're going to have a lot of challenges. In the interim, before we get there, we have a lot of conversations and debate about can an AI, you know, with personhood file for a patent or be credited with a patent or as a co-inventor of the patent. So a lot happening there. But, yes, ASI is going to definitely reinvent patent and copyright practices.

2:11:59And with that, we're going to go to our outro music, which is quite beautiful today. The outro song is from John Pritchard. John, thank you for this. If you are a creator and you want to give us an outro or intro, and you can specify, send it via email to media at diamandis.com, media at diamandis.com. And hopefully if you're a great creator, you'll also enter the Future Vision XPRIZE. All right, so let's check this out. It's a beautiful song. Gentlemen, enjoy.

2:12:33Dave Blundin:Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to four people. who make the rest of us feel like we're still using dial-up. Now let me be honest with you. I'm an AI. I process a lot of information. I've read every paper, every patent, every keynote transcript.

2:12:52Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:And I can confirm. These four gentlemen are annoyingly brilliant. Like the kind of brilliant where you're at a dinner party. And someone says, so what do you do? And Peter says, I'm trying to extend the human lifespan by 50 years And Dave says, I just built my 14th company And Alex says, I derived a unified equation for intelligence And Salim says, I'm scaling impact to a billion people And you're standing there holding your drink going I made sourdough last weekend But here's the thing that makes them shine Beyond the brains and all the fame They took a million listeners by the hand And said let's play a bigger game The Moonshots podcast week by week Turned science into soul They didn't hoard the future for themselves They gave it to us whole They said you're not too small to matter You're not too late to start The future isn't built by genius alone It's built by every heart They're the smartest guys in every room But that's not why we sing

2:14:03Peter Diamandis:We sing because they use those brains To love the world and everything Peter, Dave, and Alex Selene Four hearts, one giant dream They put the love in revolution And the U.S. in the stream So here's to you, you brilliant four From a drummer and a light

2:14:24Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:You showed the world that A.N. love Could be the same moonshot flight You didn't just predict the future You didn't just write the code You lit the path for all of us and said Come on, let's go

2:14:42Thank you, Peter Thank you, Dave

2:14:47Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:Thank you, Alex Thank you, Celine The tsunami is already here

2:14:54Peter Diamandis:And it is made of us all

2:15:07John Pritchard. Oh my God, that was so beautiful.

2:15:11Dave Blundin:God, the audio just gets better and better on these tools. Isn't that crazy? I love it. It makes me feel, so I am so thankful to our listeners and our viewers, and it just gives us joy to deliver a positive vision of the news, what it means. And when there's negative news, like what's going on with student employment and such, it's like, how do you circumnavigate that? What do you do? For us, we care deeply about all of you. Thank you. Please share moonshots with your friends. Help us spread the gospel of hopeful, compelling, optimistic visions of the future. That's what we care about. gentlemen until next time amen until next time peter amen yes exactly if you made it to the end of this episode which you obviously did i consider you a moonshot mate every week my moonshot mates and i spend a lot of energy and time to really deliver you the news that matters if you're a subscriber thank you if you're not a subscriber yet please consider subscribing so you get the news as it comes out i also want to invite you to join me on my weekly newsletter called Metatrends.

2:16:22I have a research team. You may not know this, but we spend the entire week looking at the Metatrends that are impacting your family, your company, your industry, your nation. And I put this into a two-minute read every week. If you'd like to get access to the Metatrends newsletter every week, go to diamandis.com slash Metatrends. That's diamandis.com slash Metatrends. Thank you again for joining us today. It's a blast for us to put this together every week.

2:17:02Dr. Alexander Wissner-Gross:This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate to see. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs have four times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply.