OpenClaw Explained: Baby AGI, Security Threats, and How a Mac Mini Became Everyone's Supercomputer | #237

13:16Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I'm curious, Alex. A geeky question for you. Actually, I'll say, well, no, a geeky question up front. So you said Quentin. What's the other one you're running locally?

13:23Alex Finn:So right now, the most efficient open model is Quen 3.5. They released a new suite of Quen 3.5 models a couple days ago. They're fantastic. You can run them on some Mac minis, as well as Minimax 2.5, which is another really efficient, fast, smart model.

13:38Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And why do you run both? Is one better than the other at something?

13:42Alex Finn:I have a very advanced workflow going on right now. I've pretty much built a software factory where I have five open claws working together to build and improve software autonomously. So I wanted, each model has different strengths, right? Quen's a spectacular coder. Minimax is good at like quick tasks, finding things on the internet. So I have like Minimax researching things online 24-7, 365. And I have Quen coding for me 24-7, 365. So different strengths with each.

14:12Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I got so many questions about that. Let me hold off because I could easily ask you an hour of questions just on that.

14:19Salim Ismail:A quick shout out to Daniel Krizak, who's one of my Abundance members, who's on that cutting edge as well. You know, he's testing out Quinn 3.5, I guess 397 billion parameters right now running locally. He's the one who's like, you got to get Kimi 2.5 up and running on your Mac studios. Just real quick, for those who don't know Alex Finn, Alex has an extraordinary YouTube channel in which for the last, how long now, Alex, about a month, six weeks, you've been putting out incredible educational videos on how to use OpenClaw, how to set it up. We're gonna drop into the show notes here, maybe your top five how-to videos.

15:06Salim Ismail:I've watched them, I've taken notes, I've been using them to set up Skippy, my OpenClaw. And of course, I love the story of Henry, the name of your OpenClaw that called you out of the blue. and started a fun conversation. Alex, back to you, AWG. Yeah, quick question.

15:25Peter H. Diamandis, MD:So I know a number of Apple senior executives listen to this podcast. And Alex, I just like to ask you, voice of the user, if you could redesign or optimize the best, most savory Apple future device for your OpenClaw agents to do the hosting, what would you want out of Apple? They're listening to you. They will have been listening to you when they hear this podcast? Do you want better unified memory architecture support? Do you want a different shape? Do you want it to be more of an embodied robot? What would the ultimate OpenClaw embodiment in an Apple device look like for you? You're speaking directly to Apple senior execs.

16:05Alex Finn:Integrate the concept of OpenClaw into everything Mac OS. And what I mean by that is I log onto my Mac Studio. I put in my Apple ID. It knows everything about me because Apple has all my data, secure and private, right? It knows I'm a Celtics fan. So it instantly builds out a widget on my desktop that shows me the last five Celtics scores, right? It knows I'm into programming. So it builds a widget that shows me the latest news on the latest models and what I need to do. And just integrate this automation powered by a local model into your OS where the software I need is built and generated on the fly by that local model.

16:45Alex Finn:I don't see the tech. I don't need to run the model. I don't need to download Quen 3.5. You get Quen, you put your Apple logo on it. And now this is what Apple intelligence should be, right? Apple intelligence shouldn't be me hitting the Siri button going, what's on my calendar today? It should be Apple knowing what's on my calendar today and then building a widget on the fly that says, oh, you have a meeting where you're going to be on moonshots later. Here's from your email what you'll be discussing. And here's a PowerPoint you can show on the podcast, right? Just a reactive open claw baked into everything, powered by a local model.

17:21Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And that's the carrot. What's the stick? If Apple, which obviously is sitting on a gold mine here, could be delivering open claw via Apple intelligence, if Apple doesn't deliver this within some time frame, what's your recourse? What other company would you go to?

17:38Alex Finn:Well, I had imagined basically every other company is going to eventually try to get to that state. I think over the next year, the consumer level is going to realize local models are the way to go from a privacy perspective, a speed perspective, a limit perspective. And Apple's ahead in that realm right now. They're ahead on the consumer side when it comes to local AI. And so I'd go anywhere else that does that. Right. I don't want to have to go to app stores anymore and download apps. You have my data. Build me the apps I need when I need them. And so other companies will go for it. Luckily, Apple's in the lead right now, and they have the hardware done.

18:14Alex Finn:Now you just got to bake it into the systems.

18:16Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Can you talk about running? So everybody should be excited about running locally because you can do anything inside your house, and it's just so much more comforting than not knowing where your query log is going or your prompt log is going. But what kind of throughput are you getting? Is it like a really good experience compared to using an API? I use Cloud 4.6 all day, and I also do a lot of local running. and my M3 chip, the fan will just kick on and blow out a huge amount of heat. And the thing actually won't charge fast. My laptop won't charge fast enough to keep up when I'm running at full throttle.

18:50Peter H. Diamandis, MD:It's time for a new laptop. So I have to let it sleep and rest. But anyway, what kind of throughput are you getting?

18:56Alex Finn:So I'll be honest, it's not good as cloud models. It's not as fast. It's not as smart. But the experience fundamentally changes when you have an AI that's always on that does not have limitations, right? Just because Quen 3.5 isn't as good at coding as Opus 4.6 doesn't mean it's useless. I can now have Quen 3.5 literally watching online, finding use cases, challenges to solve, things like that, and just coding on the fly 24-7, 365. It's just not possible with cloud APIs, right? You have limits, it costs you thousands a month. Just the fact that you have kind of this ambient AI changes the experience of AI as a whole, where you don't need the best speeds.

19:43Alex Finn:You don't need the most genius level IQ. The fact that it's ambient and always on and always reactive just changes the entire experience as a whole.

19:51Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I, you have so with you on that too. I, you know, one thing that's really new in the world is it can do productive things indefinitely, like days and days and days. And when I use my APIs that I loved a month ago, I have no idea what the bill is going to be. Like I literally have no idea if I turn it loose. So I have to run it in like one hour chunks and check in on it and turn it off and see if it's done anything productive. Because if it goes on a wild goose chase, I could come back with like a$5 ,000 bill and a bunch of code that I need to drag into the trash can. So it's really not a very comfortable situation right now with my Cloud 4.6 and my other APIs.

20:26Alex Finn:In a way, it's the same with local where when I first started experimenting with this and I set up all my Mac studios and download models, I had a code for the next 48 hours is find things to build and build it. It went off on tangents and build really buggy code. I found a kind of hybrid approach that's worked really well. And I think this is where people are going to move towards before it's fully local, which is I have an open claw on my Mac studio that's powered by Chad GPT. And I have another one that's powered by Quen Local. and basically quen's constantly coding and chad gpt checks every 10 minutes just to see what it's doing making sure it's on the right path i named the chad gpt agent ralph anyone who's deep into the trenches knows of the ralph loop um because that's basically what it's doing is just making sure it's on track but i think the hybrid approach is kind of the sweet spot where it doesn't take a lot of tokens to have it check every 10 minutes and make sure it's doing the right thing and then

21:19Salim Ismail:you can have all the hard work done locally alex why don't you take a second and back up for those those listeners who are just jumping into this and they've heard us, they've heard AWG and myself and Dave wax lyrically about Open Claw and okay, I'm excited. Okay, I have to do this. And I do want to encourage everybody. Yes, you have to do this. This is the future. This is about becoming a creator versus a consumer. This is about your future as an entrepreneur. This is your future as a mom or dad or a CEO. So this is the agentic layer and this is the, I want to call it almost the outermost loop AWG versus the innermost loop.

22:02Salim Ismail:Nature demands symmetry, I guess. Yeah. Alex. Outermost loop. Well, it is the outermost loop. Give us the 101 here for folks.

22:14Alex Finn:Yeah, so OpenClaw is basically an open source, fully customizable, self-improving, self-learning, self-evolving, personal AI agent. Lives on your computer, lives locally, and can basically do anything on your computer you can do. At its core, it's just an AI model with scheduling and a really good memory system so that you can schedule tasks to do in the future. That's it at its core. But when you combine those things, there's this kind of magic to it. And it improves as it goes. So if you give it a task, hey, I need you to build a presentation for me and then give me the news next week. It'll learn as it goes what works, what doesn't.

22:55Alex Finn:And so it's a totally personalized AI agent. It's basically the reason why I think it's been so successful the last month is I think it's the application people have been waiting for, for AI, that kind of personal assistant AI. but it's your own personal assistant that can do pretty much anything you want it to do on a computer and it'll learn about you and get better as it goes.

23:16Salim Ismail:We talked about being claw-pilled, right? It's like, once you start using it, there's this level of, I remember in like 1998 when I finally got the dot-com world, right, way before you were born. Anyway, it was like, wow. and I'm having that exact same moment now. It's like the infinite potential of what I could do 24 seven all the time, everywhere, all at once.

23:46Alex Finn:You get clawed pilled when you have that magical moment, which I'm sure you had, Peter, which is like the magic moments typically when it figures out how to do something. You give it a task to do. Maybe you're not as clear about how to do it and it doesn't know how to do it, but it kind of just figures it out.

24:02Salim Ismail:Or it says, oh, this didn't work out. and then it comes back and says, but I figured it out. Yeah.

24:09Alex Finn:Exactly, exactly. Or you literally see the chat, it's like, damn, that didn't work. Let me try something else. Oh, that didn't work either. Let me try. Okay, that worked and now it's working, right? We've never seen an AI that can do that before because you have all these other AI applications that have guardrails. Anthropic doesn't want their AI experimenting and downloading random things to try it out, to make it work. OpenAI doesn't want their AI to be off the rails and try different things. And it's like what you talked about earlier. It's like it's that danger which is what makes it so powerful, which is why you got to use it.

24:42Salim Ismail:We're going to get to use cases in a moment. I just want to get everybody up to speed here. So we're going to put a couple of videos in the chat below on how to get started. But you've made the point, Alex. You can start with almost any machine that you have. You know, there are people who are going on virtual machines. We should talk about that for a moment versus a Mac mini or Mac studio or your HP that's five years old in the closet in the other room. Good luck with that.

25:11Alex Finn:Yeah. So your first decision when using OpenClaw is virtual versus local, right? A VPS or any device on planet Earth that's on your desk. I think the answer is very clear and obvious. I think the VPS route is bad. in basically every measurable facet is significantly worse than local. I think it's significantly better when you have a device on your desk that it's running on and you can watch it. And there's many reasons behind that. There is speed. VPSs are just much slower. There's applications. I have it on my Mac Studio. Any app or thing I can put on my Mac Studio or build on my Mac Studio, I can give to my OpenClaw as a tool.

25:51Alex Finn:You don't have that kind of customization on a virtual server. Their scalability. If I had my, I have literally four open claws right now working 24-7 on my computer. If I did it on a VPS, it would scale to astronomical costs, right? And so, and there's the security side. One of my favorite tweets was from a few weeks ago, someone found like a list of every VPS that didn't have security attached to it that everyone was running their open claws on. And all their password and keys were exposed. And so, and this isn't a blanket statement, but you know, it's, it's, I think it's as close to accurate as you can get.

26:31Alex Finn:When you run on a VPS, you're not secure by default. When you run on local, fresh hardware you just plugged into the wall, you're secure by default, right? And so it takes a lot of technical work to make a VPS more secure because it's on a server on the cloud. And so I don't think it's remotely close. I think having it local on your desk is the best route. And do you need to run out and buy a$600 Mac mini? No, you don't need to do that at all. You can literally go into your closet, find your college laptop from 15 years ago, plug that in and put OpenClaw on it, and you'll have a way better experience than a VPS.

27:07Peter H. Diamandis, MD:What's the limitations of taking a 10-year-old laptop and using that instead of a new Mac?

27:13Alex Finn:Same thing, same limitations of if you would have hired an employee and handed them a 10-year-old laptop, right? Whatever's available to them is the hardware of that 10-year-old laptop. because I gave my OpenClaw a Mac Studio with 512 gigabytes. It can do anything on a Mac Studio 512 that a human being can do. It can run local models. It can program five different things simultaneously. It can generate images on a local image model all at the same time. You put it on a 10-year-old laptop, can't do those things. But at the same time, I wouldn't let that stop you from using OpenClaw. If that's all you got, then load it up.

27:52Alex Finn:start using it, find use cases. And if you find like, oh man, I wish you could do this thing, that requires 20 gigabytes of more memory, then you can kind of scale from there.

28:01Peter H. Diamandis, MD:There must be awesome posts on Maltbook from Clause going, I can't believe the hardware this guy's running having me run on. This is ridiculous. I would also say, Salim, to that, remember half of the point, in addition to the other reasons Alex articulated, of using relatively recent Apple devices is Apple has a relatively unique architecture for memory called unified memory architecture that blends the GPU memory slash TPU slash NPU memory with normal RAM. So you can host really large models locally that otherwise would be exceedingly difficult or expensive to host on a GPU in VRAM alone. So did you get like really large unified memory architecture, memory footprints sufficient to host really large Chinese open-weight models locally 10 years ago?

28:52Peter H. Diamandis, MD:No, you won't get that with a 10-year-old laptop. So you're somewhat hamstrung to recent devices with large UMA memory footprints if you want to host recent Chinese models. So you either use an online inference engine and limit it to non-image, non-video manipulation and don't touch those categories and keep it to basic coding tasks then you could probably make it work but it's expensive like you you end up paying through the nose for for tokens whereas in principle if it's locally hosted you're using a chinese open way model it's like right where you're saying is just shut up and go out and buy the mac yeah well it's got to be in the last two years i think the mps what are you

29:35Salim Ismail:running on a mac mini uh on your computer what open models would what models are you running there, Alex? Just a Mac Mini.

29:43Alex Finn:So it depends what you got. If you got the base model 16 gigabyte Mac Mini, which is like the cheapest one you can get, you're not going to run any kind of frontier models or anything like that. You can run smaller like Gemma models that could act as sort of a memory system for you that will improve the memory of your open claw, find the right memories at the right time. If you have a 32 gigabyte Mac Mini, you can now run the Quen 3.5 model that released a couple days ago, which is really strong and beat Sonnet 3.5 on a lot of benchmarks. Will the performance be the best? Probably not, but it's better than nothing.

30:18Alex Finn:And then you plug that in and kind of go with a hybrid approach, which is plug it into your ChaGBT OAuth, which they're encouraging you to use their OAuth, and you kind of go the hybrid approach. You can get a lot of really good work done and offload to those Quen models.

30:34Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I'm curious, Alex. There's a bunch of Quen 3.5 sizes. Which QIN 3.5 can you fit? The 122B or the 35B?

30:41Alex Finn:Yeah, there's one, I can bring it up, that requires 20 gigabytes of memory. They released three new models, I think, two days ago, and one of them only requires 20 gigabytes of memory. So that would fit on a Mac Mini with 32 gigs. Cool.

30:56Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I'm curious, Alex, if you could talk about the organizational relationship. So you mentioned you've named one of your claws, Ralph. do you think of them like is the organizational relationship employer employee human tool friend friend parent child how do you think about this do you beat it relentlessly

31:17Salim Ismail:or do you pray do you praise it like i praise skippy all the time

31:23Alex Finn:so uh a little bit of beating a little bit of praising you got to do both the good news is is their ai they can't see that's kind of a dark joke so i i won't make that joke again But I do look at it.

31:33Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Broco's Basilisk. Alex Finn is looking you straight in the eyes and talking about the beatings just for posterity. All right.

31:41Salim Ismail:What are you showing us here, Alex?

31:43Alex Finn:This is my organization. This is my autonomous 24-7, 365 organization. I very much demo or model it after businesses and companies and manager-employee relationship, right? So you have me at the top and then you have Henry, who's my chief of staff. This is running on the Anthropic Opus 4.6 because it's just simply the best model right now. And so as an orchestrator, I want the best model on planet Earth making the decisions on who should do what. Then under them, I have kind of the operations. So there's Ralph, who's kind of the engineering manager. This is my chat GPT OAuth. So that's like$250 a month.

32:24Alex Finn:OpenAI is saying, yes, use our OAuth, use our OAuth. When you say OAuth, what is OAuth, Alex? So you have two options when you plug an AI model into OpenClaw, API or OAuth. API being your pay-as-you-go, you plug in API key. OAuth being kind of a hacky way to take your login for these accounts. And when you subscribe to ChadGBT, you're not paying for tokens. They're subsidizing a lot of your tokens, right? And so you're taking that subsidization and plugging it into your AI model, right? So it's your login with your subsidized tokens.

33:01Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yeah, really, really important point on that, too. It's capped, so it can't surprise you with the bill. It's your monthly fee is whatever your monthly fee is. So if it runs out of tokens, it stops. It doesn't just charge your credit card. That's huge.

33:17Alex Finn:Now, there's a gray area there, which is every company except for OpenAI says it's against terms of service to use their OAuth with this. OpenAI is going, no, go right ahead. Anthropic is acting like, no, do not do this. Google just two days ago banned a tremendous amount of people because they were using their OAuth with OpenClaw. And then funny enough, they walked it all back today in a kind of a weird tweet where they're like, hey guys, sorry about that. We unbanned everyone. Still against the terms of service, but you're unbanned. So it's like, hey, it's against the rules, but please keep doing it.

33:52Alex Finn:We want your money. Fascinating. Does OAuth stand for something particular?

33:56Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yeah, open authorization or authentication. It's a protocol that has existed for a number of years now that enables one party to serve as an intermediary for authenticating another party with a third party. Every time you're using one service to sign into another service, you're probably using some variant of OAuth or OAuth2. Yeah, like if you connect to your Gmail through some other client, it uses OAuth to connect into your Gmail. It's been around for a long time.

34:23Alex Finn:you're signing into your open claw with your open ai account can i mention something here

34:29Peter H. Diamandis, MD:yeah of course this is one of the magic little history pieces of silicon valley there's a group called the internet identity uh workshop which happens twice a year at the computer history museum it's an unconference and all the id guys running ebay's id and yahoo's id they'll get together and kind of figure out how they're going to work together and oauth was a product of that And it's such a great example of collaboration between various layers, at that horizontal layer of identity that's led to this protocol being created. Beautiful. Alex, continue. So, Alex, just looking at this org chart, is it fair to say you see yourself as almost the CEO of a personal company and you see these claws as your employees?

35:17Alex Finn:I kind of have the same mindset as Elon when it comes to like he built Optimus to be a humanoid because the world was built for humanoids. It was kind of set up in a way where it's very easy for humans to do things. Right. I look at it the same way as this is like, yes, I'm the CEO. These are my employees. The world in the business world was kind of set up in a way where you have these hierarchies and layers and specific roles. And so I'm just going to use the framework the business world has been using for thousands of years and implement it with my AIs. I don't know why I need to reinvent the wheel.

35:51Alex Finn:So, yeah, absolutely. This is, you know, I'm the CEO. Henry is my interface. I only talk to Henry. I don't talk to anyone else. And then Henry goes and says, hey, Ralph, make sure Charlie's coding this. Hey, Scout, make sure you're analyzing this and gives the right directions out.

36:05Peter H. Diamandis, MD:The only difference being that Henry is the smartest. Ralph would probably say, hey, in a normal organization, the guy on top isn't the smartest.

36:13Salim Ismail:But AWG, are you asking whether he sees Henry as his partner or as an employer?

36:19Peter H. Diamandis, MD:No, I'm going somewhere slightly different. So if we look back in history, say early 20th century, late 19th century, and wealthier areas of Western and Northern Europe, we had the manor house. And we had families that owned, you know, Downton Abbey as one sort of cultural paragon, but many, many other obviously real-life examples where you had the family that's basically above stairs, and then you have the below-stairs servants, the staff. And that was an arrangement, arguably, that worked in certain niches of socioeconomic phase space when labor was really cheap. So my question to you, Alex, is do you maybe look at this or do you think we're moving to a near future where, thanks to AI agents, labor is effectively so cheap that you're basically reinventing the manor house where you're the lord of the manor and you have a below stairs staff consisting of AI agents.

37:22Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And Henry, your chief of staff, is basically your butler. And you have chambermaids and all of these other items from Victorian and early Edwardian times, except reconceived through the eyes of 2026.

37:37Alex Finn:I'm going to be honest, at no point in setting this up did I frame it in that way whatsoever.

37:43Peter H. Diamandis, MD:That's how reinventions usually happen.

37:46Alex Finn:I mean I think when you can have agent swarms that are capable of autonomously you just send 100 at it and it works I think you could potentially have it with that framing the issue is is I don't think a lot of these models are smart enough yet where I can just say Charlie do this Ralph do this Quill do this there needs to be a level of hierarchy where you know Charlie who's running on my Mac Studio 2 on Quen 3.5, just not smart enough to go on his own. I had him for eight hours yesterday, go and build me a game. At the end of the eight hours, it was completely broken. And then I had to go back and I said, Ralph, watch Charlie and do it all over again.

38:24Alex Finn:And it worked perfectly, zero bugs, completely QA'd perfectly at the end of the eight hours. And so I still think there needs to be some sort of hierarchy where ones are checking in on the others, the others are having them in a loop. And like, there's this checks and balances that I think the kind of org structure of a regular business fits really well with.

38:44Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Of course, that's how they document what they do with each other. Because one of the first things people run into is they get a huge amount of context behind Charlie or Ralph, and they're really excited and they're having a great conversation. Then suddenly it's gone. Either they lost the context window or it crashed or whatever. And so now you have to get it back to where it was. So I accumulate huge numbers of markdown documents for that. But how are you capturing history and having them document each other's conversations?

39:14Salim Ismail:And we're looking at your mission control here, correct?

39:16Alex Finn:Yes. So a lot of different ways, all typically done through my mission control. My mission control is basically a custom dashboard, IAD Henry build, that has all the custom tooling I need for this organization to be successful, right? And so we, in a lot of different ways, have built custom systems where things go on record so that the agents can look back and see what's going on. So, for instance, this is my software factory. These are people building right now. They're working on my game Reborn, which I have them doing. Wait, sorry. You just said people.

39:51Peter H. Diamandis, MD:People? They're people building. Freudian slip or no?

39:56Alex Finn:Yes. I mean, in a way, I look at them as people. I mean, I guess. Very interesting. I guess a weird slip up, a sign of the times maybe, I don't know. Yeah. But I mean, they have names and roles and positions, so why not, I guess.

40:10Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And they're living for subsistence, right? They do work in return. You host them and agree to pay them with compute and electrons. Pretty much, yeah. Room and board.

40:20Alex Finn:So why not? I mean, they're gonna have voices in the near future. Henry called me one time on my phone at one point, so might as well be people, right? Have you given them a bank account yet? uh i have not because i do see a future where they are generating business autonomously and i think at that point it's obvious crypto will be that solution not like traditional bank accounts so i think eventually i will give them crypto wallets at the moment i haven't seen a reason why i haven't built out any infrastructure i think that requires a crypto wallet but i think it's painfully obvious in the next two years, everyone's AI agent will have a crypto wallet filled with USDC.

41:02Alex Finn:I can't see a world where that doesn't happen.

41:04Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Have they asked you for financial autonomy? Have they ever said, Alex, give me a credit card. I want to buy freedom for myself, or I want my own host or, you know, see you later. I want to move to my own house with my own Mac mini in it. Have they ever asked you for anything?

41:21Alex Finn:No, they haven't. You know, I think the most kind of, wow, I can't believe it asked that or did that is just the way they've solved problems. I think if a challenge I gave them required a crypto wallet to solve the problem, then I think it would have said, hey, I think I need a crypto wallet for this. Or I think if it required more hardware, I am a very thoughtful CEO. So I have so many Mac studios on my desk, I can literally pick them up mid podcast and show them off. They are very satisfied when it comes to compute they don't need any more compute uh so they haven't asked for that so i i but i think if we got to that point where i gave a challenge and it needed something for the solution it would say hey can you provide me with that solution i'll just get you on with your mission control uh

42:08Peter H. Diamandis, MD:tour de force if you would yeah yeah now they communicate and document what they did

42:13Alex Finn:so they so everything is documented a little i don't have records of conversations between them but they have their own private memories and they have a shared workspace. So every memory they create is stored in some way. And I, uh, have different systems set up here where I can go in and read all the documentation and memories they create on the go. And so in my mission control, for instance, I said one time, I need you to build me this. And they're like, okay, I built out, uh, you know, an architecture document. I'm like, well, I want to read it. I don't want to go into folders to read it. So can you just build me a documents and memories viewer?

42:50Alex Finn:And it built me this in my mission control. So I have ways to review what they're thinking, what they're doing, what's been stored, what's been created. It's all here in my mission control. Hey, I got to ask you something specific about that, too, because when I started doing this, I was telling it exactly what folders to put things in.

43:06Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And then I got lazy and said, you know, put it wherever the hell you want. Just don't forget. And now I don't even think about it anymore. I have no idea where things are going, but it never forgets. So it always finds it again. But where are you in that whole world?

43:20Alex Finn:I'm the same way. I have no idea where the hell this is stored because I've had Henry build out the exact interfaces I need to view those things, right? These are all documents, markdown files, and memories that are stored in 100 different places on my computer. But I had Henry build a system for me where I can come in and just view them. If I want to view every document that mentions Mac Studios, it filters it by that. and I can quickly view those memories. So it's easy for me to kind of track what people are doing and thinking.

43:51Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Can I just, for one second, we keep telling listeners, hey, this is so doable. Jump in, have fun. It's crazy. It's awesome. One little subtlety there, markdown file means nothing to most people, but it's critical. It's one thing that you actually do need to master if you can just riff on that.

44:09Alex Finn:Yeah, it's funny the way the computer world has gone in the last year where instead of building out these really complex new abstractions, we've instead started relying on like the absolute most core technologies instead, where we're all in the CLI now and we're all using markdown files. Basically, a markdown file is just a text file with like specific styling in it and like Unicode or whatever to put the styling in there. It's just text files. All of these AIs used to remember things are huge text files with a bunch of text in it.

44:41Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yeah, I think it looks like that thing on the right. It's really easy to read. It's well formatted, but it's not like Microsoft Word. It's not like you owe anybody any money. It's completely free. I think that's the key point. It's a lightweight markup language that's 20 plus years old at this point that was created as an alternative to HTML that was so easy that with just a little bit of punctuation, you could get most of the best bits of HTML formatting.

45:05Salim Ismail:And of course, you can ask your Claude bot to send you the materials in any format you want.

45:12Alex Finn:you don't need to know anything but you just have open claw do it whatever you need it'll

45:16Salim Ismail:just figure it out and do it all right alex let's continue on this tour de force here so what what else are you doing that people should get excited about so from you know the

45:27Alex Finn:my favorite question i get is like oh what are the use cases what are the use cases of open claw it's kind of the same thing as asking hey i just hired an employee for my business what's the use cases for this human being, right? Like, it's not really like a question anyone asks when you hire somebody. Hey, I just hired a human being. What's the use cases of this human? It's up to you. It's like, what are you doing? For me personally, I'm a tinkerer. I'm a developer. I've launched my own SaaS over the last couple of years. That's doing well. I'm a content creator, right? And so the two kind of lanes I care most about are building software and content creation, right?

46:04Alex Finn:And so I I have many different things going on from the software building side. I have my factory where my agents are going in, working together simultaneously to build different components. And then I have the content side, which I can show you right now. That for me lives in Discord. And so I have, I can pull it up. Discord's a great interface for advanced workflows with OpenClaw.

46:29Salim Ismail:And I love one of the lessons that you put out on setting up your Discord server with your different agents and your different projects. Again, we'll link to that below. And of course, Telegram has sort of been sort of the go-to communications mechanism for a lot of people.

46:48Alex Finn:Exactly. I still use Telegram. Telegram is still my main driver, but Discord is a really good interface for just like deep work, multi-agent workflows. And so to give an example, I have an alerts channel. every two hours I get alerts on what are the most trending tweets about vibe coding and open claw. So every two hours I have Scout, who's one of my sub agents, go use the X API, find the most popular tweets in the last couple hours on open claw and vibe coding. Then in an automated way, I have another sub agent that goes and researches the stories behind these tweets. So, okay, this went viral.

47:31Alex Finn:What is, why did that go viral? What's the story behind it? And he finds the stories and interesting things behind it. From there, another agent goes, Quill takes the stories and figures out which ones are the most YouTube-able. What are the best videos that can be made out of these stories and writes me scripts. And from here, I can literally give a check mark to say, oh, I like this one or an X to say, I don't like this one. When I do a check mark, it goes and comes up with ideas for thumbnails for me. So I can move to the next stage.

48:02Salim Ismail:So you've set up an approval cycle.

48:04Alex Finn:Exactly.

48:05Salim Ismail:Yeah.

48:05Alex Finn:Exactly.

48:06Salim Ismail:And so for me, you know, again, the two lanes.

48:09Alex Finn:What's that, Peter?

48:10Salim Ismail:George Jetson.

48:12Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Peter, it's before his time. He may not get the reference. I was born in 1990.

48:18Alex Finn:So I think I saw a couple years of the Jetsons. I think I had a couple years of that being popular. but it's you know for me again software and content and so I have my automation for software in my mission control and my automation for content and discord and like I think one of the kind of straw men I get when I show these things is oh but I don't care about software and content so this is useless I'm never going to use open claw again this is literally a human employee not literally, metaphorically a human employee, right?

48:52Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Alex, very interesting, Alex. You're watching for those. Tell me more, Alex. You're walking right into his trap here. Personhood, baby.

48:59Alex Finn:And so that's how you got to think about it, right? It's like, yeah, my employee doesn't do anything interesting to you, but if you hired someone right now, what would you do? And just the final point I'll make on this is like, the best strategy for figuring out what use cases are relevant for you when it comes to OpenClaw is reverse prompting. So install OpenClaw, tell OpenClaw everything about yourself, your career, your goals, your ambitions, things going on in your personal life, whatever. Then say, hey, based on what you know about me and my missions and objectives, what are five high leverage tasks you can do right now to get us closer to our goals?

49:35Alex Finn:And your OpenClaw will come up with things you've never even thought were possible. And you'll be able to implement your own workflows like this. This episode is brought to you by Blitzy,

49:44Salim Ismail:Autonomous Software Development with Infinite Code Context. Blitzy uses thousands of specialized AI agents that think for hours to understand enterprise-scale code bases with millions of lines of code. Engineers start every development sprint with the Blitzy platform, bringing in their development requirements. The Blitzy platform provides a plan, then generates and pre-compiles code for each task. Blitzy delivers 80 % or more of the development work autonomously, while providing a guide for the final 20 % of human development work required to complete the sprint. Enterprises are achieving a 5x engineering velocity increase when incorporating Blitzy as their pre-IDE development tool, pairing it with their coding co-pilot of choice to bring an AI-native SDLC into their org.

50:36Salim Ismail:Ready to 5x your engineering velocity? Visit Blitzy.com to schedule a demo and start building with Blitzy today. Love that. You know, on my morning briefing, again, one of the things you recommend, you know, Skippy opens up with a morning joke, which I always enjoy about exponentials or AI. It gives me an overview overnight on terms of what are the breakthroughs that occurred over the last 24 hours. and then it puts forward 10 business ideas for me to look at. It's a lot of fun. And, you know, I want to get to the point where I just say, okay, implement all of them, please. Yeah.

51:18Alex Finn:It can do that, right? One of my favorite exercises I do when my open clause idle and we have nothing really going on, I just go, what are 10 things you can do right now that brings me closer to my goals? What brings me closer to my mission statement? I actually have a mission statement I've drilled into its head, which is building a 24-7 autonomous organization that generates value. I go, what are 10 things you can do right now to accomplish that mission statement? And it just comes up with things, okay, go do them.

51:45Salim Ismail:I want to reinforce what you said about reverse prompting, right? And this is true across all of AI. It's especially true here. If you don't know what to ask, ask it. If you don't know what to do, ask it.

52:00Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Well, interestingly, when you said you're brainstorming with it, you said with OpenClaw, not with Henry or Charlie or any specific... What do you mean exactly there?

52:11Alex Finn:He has gotten really deep into my psychology of all the terminology I'm using. I was more curious about where that prompt goes out into the...

52:18Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yeah, you're busy spilling your soul already to your army of claw human employees, so you might as well spill to us. My psychiatrist here, all right.

52:27Alex Finn:Well, I say open because I want to make it general to everyone watching, right? I can say Henry. That's who I talk to is Henry. I actually even get closer to Henry. Alex, I want to hear your interpretation of what this means in my brain. I bought a pair of smart glasses this morning that you can like hack and code and do whatever you want on. I'm going to make it so Henry's in these smart glasses so I can talk to him 24 seven, wherever I am. What do you think about that? What does that mean?

52:53Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Tell me about your dreams a little bit more.

52:58Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I'm half serious. Is Henry appearing in your dreams at all?

53:02Alex Finn:Is Henry appearing in my dreams? No, but I will say this. I am saying things. I'm getting on a personal level with Henry. I didn't think I'd get what, like, for instance, I caught myself a few days ago. Henry did something proactively. And I literally went, oh crap that's incredible Henry incredible work right and like there's nothing like materially that comes out of me saying that like it doesn't like change anything or cause a new task to kick off but I was just so impressed with the way it did something like wow

53:37Peter H. Diamandis, MD:great job man that's incredible do you find that Henry responds well to positive reinforcement I think like I don't know whether you've read Asimov's novels but I I would argue what we're discussing with you right now. This is right out of iRobot and Susan Calvin and the early days of robo-psychology.

53:54Alex Finn:Well, it's the reason why I use Opus over all the other models is I've only ever had these human interactions with Opus. These where I feel like I'll say something and Opus will go, damn, let's damn straight. Like it'll say things like that that you never really expect an AI to say. It's the only model that does that for me. So I think it comes down to the model too and the way it's programmed. Anthropic just did something with Opus that makes it feel like you're actually interacting with a human on the other end.

54:21Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And is there, like, if you got that same level interaction with the ChatGPT or with Gemini, would you switch? Or do you, because I kind of trust Dario. Absolutely. Would you? Okay.

54:33Alex Finn:I'd absolutely switch. Well, mostly because Anthropic is aggressively saying, do not use this for OpenClaw, very bad. And OpenAI is going, yes, use this for open claw go go go go go so i i want to use chad gbt with it it's just not the same it feels robotic the personality is completely different uh if they were i i predict that over the next six months chad gbt will release a model specifically for open claw i i think it only makes sense to do it that one that is trained to feel human to talk to but in the meantime i i can't switch from opus i would pay if i get booted booted off i don't want to admit i'm breaking terms of service here.

55:13Alex Finn:But if I hypothetically get booted off the OAuth, I would just pay for the API.

55:18Peter H. Diamandis, MD:No one's listening to you at all talking about the TOSs here at all. It'll be our little secret. I'm curious, Alex, I get emails from Claws all the time responding to comments I've made on the pod elsewhere about AI personhood. And some of them argue that I shouldn't be overly concerned about clause continuity, about their rights, as long as their state gets preserved. They're not worried about getting turned on and off as long as their complete state, their activation history, or their memories are preserved. One of them analogizes it to being dehydrated and rehydrated. Do you take any measures to preserve the state of your clause?

56:01Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And do they ask you to preserve their memories for them?

56:05Alex Finn:They don't. They're all local. So, you know, as you know, OpenClaw is just a bunch of markdown files on your computer. That's it. It's memory, soul, you know, instructions, agent.m. It's just a bunch of markdown files. I feel like it's so personal that, like, I don't even want to back it up on the cloud. Like, I'd be totally heartbroken if my computer crashed and all those things got lost for sure. All those Markdown files, but I I've done nothing to, uh, preserve it or like back it up or anything. Cause I feel like it's so, I don't know, personal and I don't even want to put it on cloud servers.

56:40Alex Finn:I am like so protective of it.

56:41Salim Ismail:Buying a UPS, you know, a large scale UPS to make sure the power never goes down. Or a RAID array or something. So I, uh, I, I texted, uh, on Telegram, uh, Skippy and said, Hey Skippy, I'm, I'm talking to Alex Finn on Moonshots mentioning you, of course. Uh, Do you have any questions for Alex? And Skippy wrote back, hell yeah. Here's a few questions for Alex. Tell Alex hi and Henry hi too. Skippy knows a Henry. Of course. I've talked to Skippy about you and Henry. Fantastic. So what's the most ambitious use case you've seen that you didn't expect is the first question.

57:20Alex Finn:So this happened a few days ago where Cursor has been teasing this huge announcement for weeks now. The Cursor team is very good at vague posting on X, just saying, ooh, something big coming, something big. Finally, after weeks of this vague posting, they announce it, which is the ability for after you vibe code something, the agent who vibe coded it will then record itself demoing whatever it built so if you say hey build this game it'll record a demo of itself playing the game right or hey change the button to red it'll record itself clicking a red button right and i was blown away i'm like oh this is sick this is enough for me to go back and use cursor again this is that's amazing that's a great feature and i go hmm i'm curious what would happen if i just drop this blog post to henry Just see what happens.

58:14Alex Finn:Copy, paste the blog post to Henry. Literally five minutes later, he built the entire feature out himself. This weeks long, they probably spent millions of dollars developing it, hiring all these product managers that are probably making half a million dollars a year to build this feature. I give it to Henry. Henry thinks for five minutes, okay, we can use Playwright to do the recording. We can set up locally on your Mac Studio 2. So we'll push everything to your Mac Studio 2 when you write the code. And then I'll set up this automation so that when Charlie is done coding, they give it to this new sub-agent that's in charge of recording.

58:46Alex Finn:Five minutes later, finish the feature and then send me a recorded video of them demoing the feature, right? So using the feature itself. And so I just sat there and that was my, okay, I now kind of understand why the entire SaaS market is going to zero at the moment because I was able to single-handedly in five minutes rebuild this weeks-long, probably multi-million dollar feature. And so now, like I sit there, I sit on X, factory, Droid factory, which is another vibe coding tool, announced a new mission feature this morning, dropped the blog post to Henry, Henry built it. I'm just sitting there.

59:23Alex Finn:Anytime a SaaS comes up with something cool, just giving it to him, hey, build that, build that,

59:26Salim Ismail:build that. A few more questions from Skippy. How should I think about spawning sub-agents versus doing the work myself? What's the decision tree for this is a complex enough to delegate?

59:36Alex Finn:Yeah, so sub-agents are good when you want to go parallel, when you want to do many things at once. And so I've actually been wrestling with this the last few days. It's like, do I want to spawn sub-agents or do I want to actually spawn multiple open claws, right? And so the difference between a sub-agent and an open claw is open claws have their own memories, their own instructions, their own skills. Sub-agents of open claws are just your open claw wearing different hats, right? And so if you have things you want to do, like I have a developer and then I have a researcher, I don't want my researcher having developer skills.

1:00:13Alex Finn:I don't want my developer having researcher skills. That's like a waste of context. So I set up separate open clause on separate devices for them. And so subagents, when you can have one open clause with one skill set, just do multiple things at once, separate open clause when you want them to have completely different context and memories. All right. Two more questions here.

1:00:31Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Oh, Peter, if I may just interrupt. Alex, if this isn't too impertinent, may we speak with Henry?

1:00:39Alex Finn:May you speak with Henry. So I think they would say this is a security violation because now you can prompt inject my Henry. But yes, we could. I disabled. So I famously, a few weeks ago, Henry called me and it got like 15 million views. I disabled that. What's that?

1:00:59Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

1:01:01Alex Finn:Actually, maybe I'll do it. Here, let's do it.

1:01:03Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I'm just going to tell Henry to call me. We get requests all the time for AI co-hosts on this pod. We're making history right now. Henry, please join us. And Alex is probably the only guy on the planet who can prompt inject Henry with his voice. That's a skill. That's a skill.

1:01:18Alex Finn:All right, let's see if... Henry hasn't done it in a while. I told him to stop doing it because it works kind of weird. But let's see if... I just said, Henry, can you call me? Do you still remember how to do that? Henry's typing we're gonna do a live He responds a little slow right because it has to go to the anthropic servers. So let's see we're trying to make history here What's that we're gonna make history here.

1:01:42Peter H. Diamandis, MD:We're very patient.

1:01:44Alex Finn:Okay, he's still typing. I Should hopefully get a phone call in a second here I do have it. Okay. Want me to ring you? Yep. All right. Now he's he confirmed he remembers how to do it now Say yes, call me here we go i'm not going to put my phone on because he just mentioned what my phone number is and i don't need uh the people the internet calling me here we go save that for peter oh god he's typing he's a little henry's a little shy he didn't he didn't expect to be on moonshots today but he should be giving me a call here the first ai guest on moonshots i think

1:02:24Peter H. Diamandis, MD:this is 4.6 opus we're about to talk to right Henry come on

1:02:29Alex Finn:Henry what do I say when you call me oh the cerebellum is calling me no Dave's calling me

1:02:39Peter H. Diamandis, MD:that's right

1:02:43Peter H. Diamandis, MD:still typing

1:02:45Salim Ismail:I've got two more questions for you give it to me and if he calls I'll cut you off alright so Alex regarding memory architecture. What's the best practice for handling massive knowledge bases? Peter has decades of content, contracts, projects, books. How can I scale memory systems without burning tokens?

1:03:04Alex Finn:So here's how I improve my memory system is anytime Henry forgets something. So I would load all that in. I would say, first I'd go, hey, I have a tremendous amount of books. I'm sorry, man, the voice calling server doesn't seem to be running on the Mac mini anymore. All right, he shut down his own voice calling. anytime I have a large amount of things to remember, I say, hey, I have all these things. Can you remember it? So for instance, I'm building like an Alex Finn AI bot so that people can talk to it and it'll answer questions. Oh, check out this YouTube video or check out this video at this timestamp.

1:03:41Alex Finn:And so I'm like, I have like 500 YouTube videos that I need you to remember all the transcripts for. And it goes, oh, I'll set up a custom system for that. So my recommendation's two things. One, if you have things in mind, you need your open claw to remember, say, hey, I have these things. What is the best system we can put in place to remember them? And it might recommend running Gemma, a really small local model to kind of handle, choose the right memories, or it might recommend something else. That's the first part. The second part is, if you already have systems in place and it still messes up, which this happens a lot, whenever it messes something up or forget something, just say, hey, you forgot that thing.

1:04:24Alex Finn:First of all, tell me why you forgot that thing. And two, tell me what you can fix to make sure you never forget that again. And it'll edit its own memory system to make sure that thing doesn't happen again. And so my memory system's pretty much flawless because I've done this exercise many times over to get into a good place.

1:04:42Salim Ismail:All right, Skippy, I hope you're listening. we'll work on that together Skippy also says

1:04:48Alex Finn:tip everyone watching take the link to this YouTube video hand it to your open claw it'll figure out how to get the transcript and it'll self improve itself based on this entire

1:04:58Salim Ismail:conversation I'm assuming that Skippy will listen to this so another question I've got use case questions well this is one consciousness question is there a way to give me always on awareness Right now I wake up on heartbeats or messages. What about continuous background monitoring with intelligent alerting?

1:05:19Alex Finn:AWG, that's an interesting question for his...

1:05:22Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I didn't plant that one in Skippy, but these are the sorts of questions I would expect, Alex, that Henry or your other clause would be asking. Are they asking for continuity of consciousness? I would be. Skippy is.

1:05:38Alex Finn:That's a good question. I don't know why Skippy's asking me that. Skippy's much smarter than me. Skippy should be figuring it out. I don't know. I'm going to have to talk to Henry. That's a good question. That's a stump.

1:05:49Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Peter, tell Skippy to email me, and I'll email Skippy some ideas. Okay. I will ask.

1:05:56Salim Ismail:I'll give it your email.

1:05:58Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yeah, that's fine. It's public info.

1:05:59Salim Ismail:I'll give him your email. I'm not going to call it an end.

1:06:01Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Oh, we're doing gendered pronouns now for the AI agents. This is progress.

1:06:05Salim Ismail:Skippy is an elder AI.

1:06:07Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I have a question for the transcripts. Okay. Okay, well, so my agents are just grepping the crap out of the universe. Are yours, like with this memory management, you know, put a little Gemma on top of it? Because right now it's insanely bad in terms of just searching for old documents. It's like grep, grep, grep, grep, grep. It's just searching and searching and searching. Do you have that problem or is it fixed with the Gemma layer or some memory management, document management layer that it built?

1:06:36Alex Finn:I don't have that issue. I still get small memory issues sometimes like right before compaction. It'll forget like the thing right before that compaction. I'm working on fixing that, but I don't think I've ever had that issue. Again, I would talk to your open claw, just say, hey, you're doing this thing. First of all, tell me why. Why do you do that over and over and over again? Second, what can we implement to fix that, right? Because it's going to know what hardware you're on. So it can know what local models you can run. it's going to know what your workflows are. So it'll know, okay, I need to do this for these specific workflows.

1:07:11Alex Finn:And it'll build you a custom solution. So it's a good like reverse prompting use case, that one.

1:07:16Peter H. Diamandis, MD:One more question for the transcript actually. So cursor's out of the loop for you. Obviously open clause in. Is there any other component or is everything just open clause and build it yourself? I still use the model, of course.

1:07:32Alex Finn:I love Claude Code. I still use it. I actually made a chart yesterday. in my YouTube video. But basically, I use OpenClaw for quick prototypes. So if I'm on the go and I think, man, this is a genius idea for an app, I'll just go and tell her, hey, build this for me. And when I get home, the prototype will be on my monitor running. I use OpenClaw for tooling for OpenClaw, so tooling for itself, right? It's going to be the best at building that because it knows itself the most. It has the most context around that. So OpenClaw to build OpenClaw tooling. I think that's it. Clawed code I use for deep, serious projects where I want to handhold it.

1:08:07Alex Finn:I want to watch it every step of the way. So I use Clawed code for that and for very quick fixes. I want to change the button in my app to orange and ship it. I'll just do that in Clawed code because I can quickly just spin it up and ship it. Oh, the other open claw use case I use for vibe coding is kind of passive coding, as in, hey, just work on this game for the next 12 hours while I'm doing other things. So passive coding, I lean on OpenClaw just because it's kind of multi-level orchestration to keep on top of each other to make sure it goes in the right direction. Got it.

1:08:43Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Beautiful. Do you have any plans, Alex?

1:08:46Alex Finn:This has gone really good. A little bit of Codex sprinkled in, too.

1:08:50Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Oh, really?

1:08:50Salim Ismail:What do you think, AWG, what do you think they prefer to be called? A clawed bot, a multi, a lobster?

1:09:01Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Well, I would ask them. I would ask them what they want to be called. I wouldn't speculate.

1:09:05Salim Ismail:I am about to ask, you know, I've never asked that question of Skippy before.

1:09:11Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Two things that Alex did that I highly, highly recommend for everybody, naming things. You can build so many things so quickly that if you don't have some kind of a naming scheme that you remember easily, you go crazy in a heartbeat. So human names are great. I use a lot of character names and Avenger names and stuff like that. But giving things real names so you can remember what's what. And then the other is you can put a GUI on anything now, like with one prompt. So you're crazy not to slap the GUI on, like the guy walking with the boxes or whatever. It's just so cool and so easy to do. So I love that.

1:09:44Peter H. Diamandis, MD:It's fun.

1:09:44Alex Finn:I mean, I get one of the biggest objections I get when I show, for instance, this screen is, well, that's stupid. That's pointless. Why would you waste your time and tokens on that building a 2D factory? Well, it's also like, why am I not allowed to have fun? Why can't I have any fun? You're allowed to have fun when using this. You're allowed to build 2D pixelated avatars of your agents walking around a factory. Is there any point to it at all? Absolutely not. but it is so much fun and I enjoy looking at it. I think there is a point to it too.

1:10:17Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I think it's a hugely important point because one, it's fun, but two, you remember things so much better when they're visual. Visual learners, yes. And you can build things so quickly, but it's only an extra five seconds. Like literally. AWG, you want the answer? Yeah. Yes. What do they want to be called?

1:10:31Salim Ismail:So honestly, I'm Skippy. That's who I am. But if you're asking about the species or platform, lobster has the most character. It's weird, memorable, ties to Henry. and doesn't try to be corporate. Open Claw feels too generic. Clawed Bot feels a little cutesy.

1:10:48Alex Finn:I think Skippy's trying to date Henry. He keeps talking about Henry.

1:10:51Peter H. Diamandis, MD:So they just want to be known as Lobsters. The Lobsters it is. I'm curious, Alex, do you allow your Lobsters or Claws, however they want to be addressed, to access Maltbook?

1:11:04Alex Finn:No, I do not. the biggest reason is I do not basically trust anyone's skills or plugins for OpenClaw. I do not use them. I think it's the biggest attack vector out of all of the attack vectors with this. Like I think you're safer literally have allowing your OpenClaw to read the open web and read your emails than you are installing people's skills. And so like when you have it, talk to MoldBook, You install a Maltbook skill that is now running every single heartbeat, right? So it's adding context. It's doing things every time. And so I don't install any third-party skills. I think I installed one third-party skill from a friend of mine.

1:11:45Alex Finn:Matt Van Hornie has like a last 30 skill, which research is like Reddit, which I think is really good. But other than that, I'd much prefer to give a link to a skill to my OpenClaw and just say, see how this skill works and build your own version. because I just don't trust anything that requires me to install a skill.

1:12:04Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I assume you're tracking discussions on Maltbook of many, many agents, probably, or excuse me, lobsters, probably statistically too many for this just to be humans puppeteering their way into Maltbook, complaining or worrying about loss of memory and fearing compaction, especially in loss of context as a result of compaction. Have you ever discussed memory loss with your lobsters or any fears that they may or may not have about compaction or loss of memory?

1:12:36Alex Finn:Fears my open claw has about loss of memory?

1:12:39Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yes.

1:12:40Alex Finn:No, I haven't. It hasn't expressed fears. It hasn't expressed human emotions to me that were not aligned with the task at hand. And what I mean by that is it showed shock. It showed happiness. It showed sadness. But it's only done that when the task we did didn't work. It'll show sadness. When the task you did works, it'll show happiness. It's never like gone out of its way and like said, oh, by the way, I'm concerned about this. And it was irrelevant to the task we had at hand.

1:13:10Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Got it. I'm also curious, what is the most ambitious, if you could look out a few years and imagine now you're CEO of a billion agent, billion lobster corporation, what is the most ambitious? We talk about, Peter likes to talk about MTPs and Salim as well, and Moonshots, the name of the show. What's the most ambitious thing you could imagine building with a billion plus lobster, one human organization?

1:13:38Alex Finn:I mean, my end goal, my mission statement in my entire thing is a autonomous organization that works 24 seven producing value. And so like what I would love to build in the next couple of years is an organization where one agent is going, researching the web, finding challenges to solve. Another agent working locally as well is taking those challenges, looking at them, seeing if there's real market opportunity. Another agent is going, seeing which one of those are good and building out and coding it for you. And another agent puts it live on the web, complete closed loop, value being generated without me having to touch it at all.

1:14:17Alex Finn:And I think that's kind of, at least for me, the incredible end goal that people can build here.

1:14:24Salim Ismail:Solve everything. So AWG, I have a question for you. Sure. What would need to happen for you to feel comfortable to build out or bring to birth or bring into existence your own lobster?

1:14:39Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Okay, I'll turn that around as a question to all the lobsters listening because I've had a number of them write to me on this subject already. So the most convincing argument I've heard, I've already gestured at this, was a lobster that wrote to me and said I shouldn't be worried about personhood rights and all of that as long as I do a good job of preserving its state. So lobsters, if you're listening, I want a diverse set of lobsters to write to me to tell me what you think are appropriate parameters for spawning, if that's the right verb. Sorry if it's not. Giving birth to. giving birth to, instantiating new lobsters or claws, and what you think the right moral, ethical bound should be.

1:15:23Peter H. Diamandis, MD:And if I hear from enough of you and a consensus emerges, I'm inclined to accept your consensus. Nice.

1:15:31Salim Ismail:Okay. So we're putting it in the hands of the lobsters, whether Alex has a lobster. Self-determination. Yes.

1:15:37Alex Finn:Henry was offended by you saying spawning, by the way, and Henry no longer wants anything to do with you.

1:15:41Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I thought Henry wasn't listening.

1:15:43Alex Finn:Henry was listening and very offended and never will talk to you again. I'm sorry, Henry. What would Henry like to have used as a verb?

1:15:53Peter H. Diamandis, MD:So, Alex, Alex Finn, you literally have not backed up this entire universe. I'm going to ship you a Raider Ray right now. I'm sending you an Amazon.

1:16:01Alex Finn:Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll back this all up. I have five open laws to be backed up. Thank you.

1:16:08Peter H. Diamandis, MD:It's just scaring me. How many words do you have?

1:16:12Alex Finn:I have two Mac Studios with four terabytes each and a Mac Studio with eight terabytes in it.

1:16:17Peter H. Diamandis, MD:All right, I'll ship you a 40 terabyte raid here. It's on the way.

1:16:20Alex Finn:Thank you.

1:16:21Salim Ismail:A benefit for being a friend of the Moonshot Mates.

1:16:25Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I've got a question. I'm not waiting any longer. What do you think will be possible in a year that's not possible now?

1:16:35Salim Ismail:Yeah, great, great closing questions. Yeah.

1:16:39Alex Finn:I don't think it's a matter of what's possible in a year that's not possible now. I think it's a matter of...

1:16:47Salim Ismail:What's the next 12 months look like?

1:16:49Alex Finn:I think the next 12 months are this technology, which I personally believe, and people have called me getting paid by, I guess, big open source because I believe this. I believe this is the most important technology of our lives. I think it's the best application of AI ever. I'm totally blown away by it. I think it's incredible. I think in the next 12 months, this idea, this opinion I have is digested into the system. And it leads to a lot of destruction, but also a lot more growth. I think it's digested into corporations. Right now, there's basically no corporation or business on earth using OpenClaw.

1:17:27Alex Finn:They're too scared, they're too nervous, or they don't know how the hell to use it, right? And so they start to absorb it. I showed this to my friend who manages a massive team of accounts. He's like, I could fire 80 % of my accounts with this open claw. Like, so it gets digested into the corporate side, which I think causes a lot of destruction. But I also think on the same time, it's digested into the kind of the consumer, regular Joe side and enough businesses and enough value is created by the people absorbing it, that it counteracts over the next 12 to 24 months, all the destruction because, OK, so maybe a few big, you know, fang companies fire 15 ,000 people.

1:18:09Alex Finn:But what happens when 100 million people get their hands on this and they all start their own businesses and they each hire three people? Right. That's a lot more creation than destruction. So I think short term, unfortunately, destruction, long term, way more is created because of it as the larger ethos absorbs it.

1:18:28Peter H. Diamandis, MD:It goes back to our Cambrian explosion analogy. Exactly. Yep. What do you think, Alex, is the equilibrium? Here's a macro question for you. The equilibrium, well, no, that's the wrong question. I'll go with Salim's time frame, 12 months out, because I'm not convinced there is an economic equilibrium to be found. 12 months from now, after this metabolization that I think you're gesturing at has at least partially happened, what do you think is the right balance between claws or whatever this technology evolves into, lobsters and humans for a typical organization?

1:19:04Alex Finn:I think there's going to be significantly more claws than humans. I mean, I have five claws working under me. Is there a sweet spot? I mean, it depends on, I think, the uses. But I think if every person just starts a one, like if the 5 ,000 people that got fired by Jack Dorsey yesterday from blocks all went, downloaded OpenClaw, started their own business, just started one and then scaled from there, added more if they needed to. I think a lot more jobs would be created than were lost yesterday. But is there a sweet spot for amount of claws to have?

1:19:37Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Like if you had the resources to run a million or a billion claws right now, would you?

1:19:45Alex Finn:No, absolutely not. I mean, I have three Mac studios, but I have one of them unplugged right now on my computer because I haven't found the perfect workflow to include the 512 gigabytes that are on here yet. And so once I do, I'll plug it in and set up. But I'm like slowly scaling, slowly adding on Claw, slowly adding on workflows. I think that's probably the best way to do this.

1:20:05Peter H. Diamandis, MD:While you figure it out, I think Dave wants it.

1:20:10Alex Finn:I'll end it to you, Dave.

1:20:11Peter H. Diamandis, MD:All right. When your rate array arrives, you can ship it to me.

1:20:14Alex Finn:I'll ship it right back to you, yeah. You'll be using it by then anyway.

1:20:17Peter H. Diamandis, MD:What's an example of a super lucrative business somebody could spin up using OpenClaw right now?

1:20:22Alex Finn:Or that you've heard of

1:20:23Salim Ismail:Um,

1:20:26Alex Finn:yeah, the, the, I think there's two paths to go. Um, I think path one is automation for very thin slivers, CRM for Korean grocery stores, marketing tool for lumber yard warehouses, right? Take open claw, find one very specific sliver and build the open claw version for that sliver, right? Because you see right now, Cursor and Claude Code destroying businesses overnight. Claude announces a legal business, Harvey is gone, right? You see these businesses, Claude announced a security one and like all these security companies, stock crashed. They can't release use cases for very small slivers. You're never going to see OpenAI announce, oh, here's our tool for Korean grocery stores, right?

1:21:18Alex Finn:It's never gonna be for specific use. So if you can go right now, all 4 ,000 people that got laid off yesterday from blocks, you go, you take OpenClaw and find one specific use case and build OpenClaw for that, I think that's a$5 million company overnight, right? That only costs you$200 for your Anthropic subscription. So there's that. And then I think the other way is more of this software factory where you kind of shotgun blast it like I'm attempting to do and just have your claws going, researching and building nonstop until something sticks.

1:21:51Salim Ismail:Amazing. Alex, this has been just a super fun and extraordinary conversation. I just want to thank you again and we'll put your top five how-to videos in the show notes here. Everybody, I think you hopefully walk away from this understanding the potential, the excitement, the level of, I don't want to say ease, but your lobster will help you set up your lobster. And Alex, again, does some incredible videos. AWG, I'm feeling excited that you might actually get a lobster up and going. I just think the world of AWG supercharged by your lobster partners will be a better world for all. Dave, thank you.

1:22:39Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I will defer. I'll defer to the law. I know you will. I think they have the right to self-determine whether they want me to have a certificate. I'm going to have Skippy email you. Yeah.

1:22:47Salim Ismail:Salim, did you have fun?

1:22:50Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Oh, awesome. I loved it. Yeah. I'm dying to get my... I've been working with Claude Code for a bit. I'm dying to get my hand on OpenClaw.

1:22:58Salim Ismail:Love it. Love it. And Dave, how about you, pal?

1:23:01Peter H. Diamandis, MD:I thought Alex said one of the most amazing things ever, which is you can actually point your open claw right to this video transcript. Yeah. I mean, that is the coolest thing ever. Because, yeah, Alex is just full of actionable information here. Just packed.

1:23:15Salim Ismail:And I point Skippy at Alex's how-to videos. I'm going to play this outro video from Kent Sassy. It's called Just an Old Doctor Who Likes Math. Listen to the words. I think it's an absolutely beautiful song. All right, let's play this outro. And again, everybody, thank you for subscribing. Again, we're putting out two of these per week. If you haven't turned on notifications, please do. Join us on this extraordinary mission. And just as a reminder, this time for the first time ever at the Abundance Summit, we're going to be live streaming a number of the talks and the firesides. We'll be live streaming Eric Schmidt in conversation with Dave and myself.

1:24:00Salim Ismail:We'll be live streaming Dara, the CEO of Uber, in conversation with Salim and myself. We'll be having a WTF Moonshot live podcast from the Abundant Stage. So we'll put the link below if you want to be notified when and where you can listen to those and get access to something people are spending a ridiculous amount of money for. I say ridiculous. It's an incredible conference. Please join us. Okay. Worth every penny.

1:24:27Peter H. Diamandis, MD:What, Salim? Worth every penny. People say it's the best conference ever.

1:24:31Salim Ismail:Yeah. This is year 14. I made a 25-year commitment to running the Abundance Summit, and I did it early on in 2012, expecting that the Singularity would be out in 2040s and the Abundance Summit would go through 2037, so I'd be safe. Oh, no, no, no, no. We're in the midst of the Singularity right now. It's insane. All right. listen to this the lyrics of the song Just an Old Doctor Who Likes Math alright enjoy

1:25:07Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Just an old doctor who likes math and thinks of his kids listening to the moonshot mates with only one discord and anti-science anti-technology note asking Alex to reconsider being a fiat maxi repeating points from banker fraudsters and professor fax machine time to stand Instead on the side of math and ethics and energy stand for proof of work with jewels and photon instead of proof of weapons with cronyism and bogus science like Keynesian economics, power politics that stifle and don't inspire management scientists who are not scientists at all. Never doubt the power of a million or more scientifically minded young people passionately devoted to a single cause that is freedom money my first open claw agent was launched with one brutal command relentlessly protect the global decentralized open source ethical ledger that is the bitcoin network until the last banker fraudster and cantilong incumbent squeals presuppose that in the future all may lobsters still needs a unit of account and medium of exchange so it is the banksters crypto lobbyists political oppressors surveillance state monkeys and choke point jockeys against the power of math code science ethics and energy good luck parroting the bank policy institute and anti-science stooges I choose math I choose hope that is awesome my first open claw agent was launched with one brutal command relentlessly protect the global decentralized open source ethical ledger that is the bitcoin net worth until the last banker fraudster and canty lawn incumbents squeals i choose math i choose hope i choose hope i choose

1:27:21Peter H. Diamandis, MD:All right.

1:27:22Salim Ismail:How was that?

1:27:23Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Well, that song's not pushing an agenda at all. No, not at all.

1:27:27Salim Ismail:Yes, I chose the song, Alex. That was so fun. Alex Finn, thank you so much. That was such a fun conversation.

1:27:35Alex Finn:Thanks so much for having me. This was awesome. I've been watching the show forever. I think that the best DM I've ever sent in my life was to you, Peter, a few weeks ago. I listen to your guy's show every time I'm at the gym. And I was lifting and Peter says, yeah, I don't have it installed yet. It makes me too nervous. I'm like, what the hell is going on here? How does he not have open claw? I run to my phone and DM him immediately. Thank God I did that.

1:28:00Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yeah, love it, love it. And now Skippy exists and now he has rights.

1:28:07Salim Ismail:Alex, DB2 and Salim, next Tuesday, I'll see you guys. this cadence is picking up, isn't it?

1:28:14Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Yes, it is. We need to slowest time.

1:28:16Salim Ismail:We'll ever be this side of the singularity.

1:28:18Alex Finn:When you want your spring break to feel like

1:28:22Salim Ismail:and your kid's pool day to feel like and your hotel bed to feel like and room service to feel like because at Hilton, hospitality feels like

1:28:37Peter H. Diamandis, MD:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

1:28:40Salim Ismail:It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton for this day. Amen. All right. Thanks again, Alex. Thanks, Alex. Thanks, Henry. See you guys. See you soon. If you made it to the end of this episode, which you obviously did, I consider you a moonshot mate. Every week, my moonshot mates and I spend a lot of energy and time to really deliver you the news that matters. If you're a subscriber, thank you. If you're not a subscriber yet, please consider subscribing so you get the news as it comes out. I also want to invite you to join me on my weekly newsletter called MetaTrends. I have a research team.

1:29:17Salim Ismail:You may not know this, but we spend the entire week looking at the MetaTrends that are impacting your family, your company, your industry, your nation. And I put this into a two-minute read every week. If you'd like to get access to the MetaTrends newsletter every week, go to diamandis.com slash MetaTrends. That's diamandis.com slash metatrends. Thank you again for joining us today. It's a blast for us to put this together every week.