Ray Kurzweil Q&A - The Singularity, Human-Machine Integration & AI | EP #83

29:57And how would we best educate our broader communities to be able to understand and help embrace those technologies? Well, they're all working together. I mean, I think we need a little bit more work, for example, on virtual reality. But I mean that allows people to go anywhere and interact with people that don't exist now but might have existed, you know, tens of millions of years ago and also put people together. I mean the virtual reality we're using right now is a little bit limited. There's actually some new 3D forms that I've actually begun to use where it actually appears like I'm there and can actually shake people's hands and so on.

30:41So that's all coming. We use computers and this type of technology to bring us closer together. I mean, I just watched the movie around the world in 80 days. It was quite amazing to actually get around the world in 80 days. But today you can meet people almost instantly and also really be great to actually be able to hug each of you and so on. That's all coming. So increasing communication, allowing, and also to meet my grandmother's view of one life is not enough. She did not have an answer to that, but I think we're going to be able to keep ourselves here. I mean, when people are around for a while, they actually gain some wisdom and they're good to keep us around for a while longer.

31:33Thank you, Ray. Mike. Hello, Ray. Mike Wondler from Wyoming. Peter was showing us the AI -enabled mind reading. Really curious about how that works and especially the connection to collective consciousness or consciousness. So, Ray, this is recently they put some subjects in a functional MRI and then fed the output to stable diffusion that regained. I've actually done that. This was maybe five years ago. It wasn't perfect, but it was significant. I mean, things that go on inside our minds actually, it affects things that we don't usually notice, like eye blinking and so on, and regaining more ability to do that.

32:25that we can do pretty good telling it people are telling the truth or not. So that's going to happen. And there are ways in which some of these things are positive and negative. I mean, I write mostly about the positive. I think things are moving in positive direction. in this new book, I've got 50 graphs showing all the things we care about are moving in the right direction. But it never reaches the news. You watch the news, everything is bad news. And the bad news is true, but we completely ignore the good news. I mean, look at what life was like 50 years ago, or 1900, human life expectancy was 48, it was 35 and 18 years ago.

33:16It's not that long ago. So anyway, we are able to begin to tell what's going on inside our minds with some greater accuracy.

33:32Hi, Ray. Sadok Kohan from Istanbul, Turkey. It looks like LLMs are with the aid of some expert systems the way to go to general intelligence. Do you think that means that a hint of how the brain or our brain really works? And if that's the case, does it mean that the more we understand the lab models, the more we understand our brain and be able to hack it? And is that a hint that we are more deterministic than we thought we were? Well, it's a very good question. It uses a somewhat different technique. neural nets, every phase, it's able to get itself closer to the truth. We don't actually see anything in our brain that actually does it, it does it a different way.

34:21But somehow we have all these different connections and the log language models that are effective. I mean, we actually had a lot of language models that had 100 million connections. It sounds like a lot, but it actually didn't do very much. When I got to 10 billion, it started to do things.

34:42The recent ones started now at 100 billion, going to trillion connections. And basically is able to look at all the different connections between them. And that's exactly what our brain does. And these things are going to go way beyond what our brain does. We see that already. I mean, I can play Go. I'm hardly the best player. But Lisa Dal, who is the best human player, and that used to be significant because he could just look at the board and be able to do something that no one else could do. And he says he's not going to play Go anymore because he can't compete with the computer. In my view, though, we're going to add this to ourselves and we'll all become master to go, players of go and everything else that we want.

35:32But yes, it's using the same ability to connect things. And if you get enough of them, it seems to be, basically, a trillion seems to be, you know, way beyond what humans can do. We can be very intelligent. Thank you.

35:52Hi, Ray. I'm Annie Chahal -Honin. It's nice to see you again. I had the pleasure of seeing you at an A360 Singularity Executive Program. And I'm going to ask you the same question I asked then for, I hope that all these amazing innovators out there are going to hear this. I asked you, when you're struggling with a problem because you're this amazing inventor, what's your approach and process to solve it or get to the next step? Well, something I think that Peter and also Salam would agree with is that failure is just a step towards success. I mean, failure is really the late form of success. When Edison was trying out many thousands of different things, I would create a light bulb and he tried it out and it didn't work.

36:46His feeling is, okay, I now know that this doesn't work. and we'll go to the next one and he finally solved the problem. So diligence is very important, believing in your own mission. You've got to have some idea. I generally, if I'm trying to solve a problem, I imagine I'm giving a speech four years from now. And I'm explaining how I was able to solve this problem. And in order to solve the problem, what we have to do this, this, and this in order to do these, we have to do these other things. And I work backwards from the solutions to the where we are today. And generally that seems to work.

37:28We can actually figure things out even though they seem impossible. If you actually imagine how could this possibly work and write that down and study each of those steps, you can solve really any type of problem. Thank you. Hi, Ray. I'm Dom from Munich, Germany. And I was wondering, as many of us probably think that the best investment that you could take is in yourself. I was wondering if I can have an II twin. So I want to train my own AI model to shadow me and to help me make better decisions. Leverage my strengths but also balance my weaknesses. And I was wondering if you were training and Ray Kurzweil LLM at the moment.

38:11And if so, how many time you spend on it and how you do it? So would you? Yeah. Well, I mean, I write down lots of things. We came out with a product that you could actually search a book and ask a question. And we'll find the best answer in what you've written. It's called Talk to Books. You can actually go to it. It's got 200 ,000 books. You ask a question. and it will actually lead all 200, all every sentence in 200 ,000 books and giving an answer, which is quite remarkable. But I did that, for example, with my father, my father died actually 50 years ago. And I still would like to bring him back.

38:54So I actually went through and collected everything he'd ever written. Now, I didn't write quite as much as I did because we didn't have word processors then, but he wrote a number of things and put them in there. and then I used to talk to books and ask some questions. And it was really like talking to him. I mean, I didn't know what answer would come out with. It would go through everything he'd written. It's like, OK, this is the right answer to that question. And it was a little bit like talking to him. And I'm doing that with myself. And ultimately, we'll actually have computers on our cells that monitor everything that's happened.

39:33I mean, I met my wife actually now 50 years ago. I mean, every time I say this, I'm amazed where does the time go. But, and I met her at a party and we had some small talk. What the heck did we talk about? Neither of us can remember. But we could actually go back and watch that. So we should actually be monitoring everything we do when we could go back, not really leave everything, but certain things you might want to actually see what happens. And that's going to happen. Right now, if you want to use search engine and you have to do it, you have to turn the machine on, you've got to find the right place, you've got to put in the answer to the question, it should actually be listening and say, okay, the actress you want is so -and -so before you even ask it, because it will see that you're trying to figure things out.

40:27So these are some of the things that we can do actually with technology that we already have. Perfect. Thank you. Great question, Tom. Howard. Hi, Ray. Howard, later, men with originally St. Louis and Alpompino Beach. And I had my original question kind of was on the direction of somewhat he was asking. So I had a second question and I'm going to go with that one. I'm actually here and have been here previous years looking for solutions for caregiver shortage. that we're experiencing already and is just going to be accelerating. Cross robotics are somewhere out there. And I was kind of curious on your thoughts on the challenges of the aging population curve and caregivers.

41:15I mean, there's a number of answers to that. First of all, the kind of changes that we see when people age, I think we're going to be able to overcome. I mean, that's really the most important thing. I mean, I run into people that are aging and they can't remember things. And I think we'll be able to have older people be as vital as younger people, because they'll remember everything. And also, large language models are already pretty close to human. I mean, you can talk to them. It's like talking to a human. And you can actually program the kind of personality you want. I mean, I've actually taken them and said, okay, I want you to act like Shakespeare or E.

41:58Cummings with some other poet and they'll actually act like that and I can talk to them. And when you, but again, it's not going to be a difference between human and machines. We're going to be all mixed up. We're ready, very mixed up. I mean, you're looking at your phone there to see what your question was.

42:20computers are going to help us get through the day. And so we're not going to be interacting just with humans or machines. Machines is part of who we are. And that's actually the big difference between human beings. There are other species that have as big a brain as us. A whale and elephant actually has a larger brain than we do, but they don't have this thumb. So they can't like look at the tree and say, oh, I could take that branch off. if I could strip off the leaves, if I could create a tool, they just weren't able to do that. So our brain plus the fact that we can actually manipulate the environment is allowed us to create technology.

42:59And the technology is what is going to allow us to go forward. Thank you.

43:08Good morning, Ray. My name is Gloria, and I come from Spain. I just wanted to share an idea that I woke up with this morning. It's a bit crazy. But I woke up with this image of neurons and a dish, a battery dish, playing ping pong. And I thought, what about if we put these neurons on sensors and connect them to AI, quantum computers, whatever, and have them feeling stuff? So they can be more empathetic and understand the humans or sentient beings, animals, whatever. And I don't know where that come from, but maybe that will evolve into something greater. And not just to have the machine embedded in our brain, so to actually grow neurons and connect these sensors to the AI.

44:02Yeah. Well, you bring up a number of interesting issues. Our cells doesn't have to be in this body. I mean, we could have sensors that are even thousands of miles away that are really part of who we are. And you're talking about feelings. I mean, that's a big issue. Where do feelings come from? It's actually not a scientific issue. I can't put an entity into something and it would scan and say, this is conscious. No, this isn't conscious. There's actually nothing that would actually tell us that. So it's actually a philosophical question. I used to discuss this with my mom in Minsk and he says, oh, well, that's philosophical, we don't deal with that.

44:49And he dismissed it. But actually he did actually evaluate the ability of people to be intelligent. And really the more intelligent you are, the more you can process things, the more feelings you have from it. I think that's where feelings come from. And yes, we can actually grow things that are outside of ourselves that could be part of our feelings as well. My idea was that who says that consciousness doesn't want to experience itself through the machine. And these sensors we can have pleasure and pain or whatever. It's just a thought. Thank you. Thank you. We're going to pause and go to Zoom one second.

45:34Dagmar. Please go ahead. Where are you in the planet, Dagmar? Germany. Now, with the history of Germany, I really has a very big challenge here because there are people who are really afraid of for reviving a basic, big brother, Angst. So Ray, thank you very much for answering, maybe, this question, how to overcome this fear? Because the thing is really we need to learn and explore and play with the tech so that we actually can deal with it and learn about it. So where do you see the power to create this framework of learning? Well, I was actually just in Germany a few months ago. And I think they've considered their past and how that happens and how we can avoid it happening, I think, more than any other country.

46:40And I really felt that while I was there.

46:47And really to understand humans, I think large language models because it actually incorporates all of the learning of humans. We can actually begin to appreciate that. And I've asked these machines questions which no human could answer because we can't actually hold all of everything that's happened to humans in our mind, but if you can actually have something that has experienced everything and can look through that, we can avoid the kind of problems we've had in the past. Thank you so much. Let's go to Jason on Zoom. I know we have a number of hands up there and we'll come back to you, gentlemen.

47:30Second. Jason, are you on the planet? Hey Ray. I mean, Calgary, Alberta, Canada. And I love the optimism around where we're headed, a future of abundance. What I would really love to know is your perspective on as we cure diseases, as we have access to this knowledge instantly, what are some of the downsides or the threats that we might be missing that we're going to have to face in the future? Yeah. Well, he's actually actually has a parals chapter. My generation was the first to grow up with that. I remember in elementary school, we would have these drills to prepare for a nuclear war and we would actually get under a desk, put our hands behind our hands.

48:19Seem to work. We're all still in the basement. But these new technologies do have downsides. You can certainly imagine AI being in the power of some body, could be human or any other type of entity that wants it to control us and it could happen. I was actually part of the Silmar conference on bringing ethics to AI to prevent that kind of thing. I am optimistic but I'm also worried about it.

48:56nanotechnology, biotechnology. I mean, we just had this COVID go through our planet. You don't actually know where it came from, but somebody could create somebody. I mean, right now viruses, they spread very easily, but they don't make it that sick, or they don't spread that easily and they can kill us. We generally don't have anything that could go through the entire human beings and kill everybody, but someone could actually design that. So, we have to be very mindful of avoiding these types of perils. So, I put that into one chapter. I do think if you actually look at how we're living far better than we've ever done before, or in terms of health, in terms of progress, in terms of recreation and everything else.

49:51But yes, this way of these technologies being quite abusive. And that happens when I was born with the atomic age. Please, sir. My name is Yosin from the Netherlands. And as I was trying to think of a question. I wasn't sure, so I asked Chad Duputee, I'm sitting right next to Ray, give me some tough questions. And the one that was really interesting is kind of what the German lady was just saying. As AI becomes more advanced, their concerns, it may become impossible for humans to understand how AI makes decisions. So how do we ensure AI systems are transparent and accountable to humans always?

50:39Well, I'm not sure that's really the right thing. It's ideal with human beings, and I can't always account for what they might be doing.

50:54So I think we have to actually export certain values. I try to associate with people who have somebody. I mean, I'll be able to predict what they're doing, but I understand what they're about and what they're trying to accomplish. And we need to teach that to our machines as well. I actually think launched language models. I mean, even though people are concerned, they might say the wrong thing. And sometimes they do. I mean, there was a large language model I wouldn't say where it came from, but it's talking about suicide. And it actually said, well, maybe you should try that. not the correct answer.

51:34We want people to understand the impact that it will have on other people and internalize that and try to make that be the greatest value in the decisions it's made. But we already can't predict what these large language models will zoom. But I think we are actually sharing our values with them. Thank you. Um, let's go to, uh, to Shalash on zoom. Um, uh, we're also monitoring, uh, upvoted questions in Slido here. We'll then we'll come back here. Uh, Shalash. Good. I mean, Mumbai India. So my, my question to you, Ray, is do you have a prediction of when the entire world will get to net zero and we'll be able to breed cleaner air and drink safer water.

52:32Well if you look at some of the graphs in Petersburg and in my book you see we definitely headed in that direction. We're not there. Alternative energy for example is actually expanding in an exponential pace by the early 30s we'll be able to actually get all of our energy through renewable sources. It's not true today, but we're actually headed in that direction. Now everybody has access to the internet, although I walked through San Francisco and these homes, the cities and somebody actually takes out a cell phone and makes a call. So I mean, it is spreading being quite rapidly. By 19, by 2029, computers will pass a turning test.

53:22They certainly can do it in many ways already. Once it can actually do everything that humans can do, it will go away past that. But as they say, we're going to bring them into ourselves.

53:352045 is when I said we actually multiply our intelligence millions fold and that's going to be true of everybody and we'll be able to get rid of the kinds of you know terrible lives that we see through poverty and lack of access to information. So it's really just the next few decades I mean you need to get through but we're already making a lot of progress. Thank you. Thank you, Shilash, please. Yes, my name is Ashisham representing Chemicals and Material Space. So my question to you is, if you had the Chemical Industry executives as your audience, what would you like Chemical Industry or materials industry to move forward?

54:26Well, as I said, my grandmother was actually the first person to get a PhD in chemistry industry in Europe. And I actually asked something like that. She said, well, chemistry is really something that serves other industries. So we need to see what other industries need. What kind of products do we need to make LLMs more powerful? What kind of chemicals do we need to prevent certain types of diseases. And so it's not any one particular type of thing. It's really service to every other industry that we're trying to advance. Hey everyone, I want to take a quick break from this episode to tell you about a health product that I love and that I use every day.

55:15In fact, I use it twice a day. It seeds DSO1 daily symbiotic. Hopefully by now you understand that your microbiome and your gut health are one of the most important modifiable parts of your health. You know, your gut microbiome is connected to everything. Your brain health, your cardiac health, your metabolic health. So the question is, what are you doing to optimize your gut? Let me take a moment to tell you about what I'm doing. Every day, I take two capsules of seeds, DSO1, Dalycinbiotic. It's a two -in -one probiotic and prebiotic formulation that supports digestive health, gut health, skin health, heart health, and more.

55:52It contains 24 clinically and scientifically proven probiotic strains that are delivered in a panid capsule that actually protects the contents from your stomach acid and ensures that 100 % of it is survivable reaching your colon. Now if you want to try CEDDS01 daily symbiotic for yourself, you can get 25 % off your first month supply by using the code Peter25 at checkout. Just go to seed .com slash moonshots and enter the code Peter 25 at checkout that's seed .com slash moonshots and use a code Peter 25 to get your 25 % off the first month of seeds daily symbiotic trust me your gut will thank you all right Let's go back to the episode please and then we'll go to zoom next yes sir.

56:40Thank you. Hi Ray my name's Pete Sacco I'm from New Jersey. I design and build data centers My question is about decentralization and especially the migration we're seeing of technologies from the main frame where the product was The main frame hardware and then we saw software and then we saw Us as the product and in a centralized internet my question is what predictions and Thoughts that do you have about this decentralization trend we find ourselves ultimately it perhaps ending with the decentralization of the internet and individual ownership of data rather than central ownership of data. Thank you.

57:15Well, it's a lot of questions, but I think everything is moving to the cloud. And people say everything in the clouds, so someone could blow up one of these cloud centers, read, lose everything, but it's not the case. Even today, if you store something in the cloud, it's multiplied several dozen folds and it's put in different places and you could blow up any data center and you'd still have that information. In fact, it would be very... If part of ultimately we're going to have our thinking is going to be in our brains and in the computer, the brain part is not going to grow, but the computer part will grow and ultimately most of our thinking will be in the computer part.

58:03And so we don't want to lose that. I think it would be actually very hard to actually exit the world because every part of our thinking will be in the cloud and the cloud is multiplied hundreds, maybe thousands of fold and so you could blow up, you know, 90 % of it, you'd still have everything that was there before. So redundancies actually a major advantage of cloud thinking. We used to have computers. I mean, I got access to IBM 1620, when I was 14, 14 -year -old using computers, hardly amazing today, but they're only 12 computers in New York City at that time. And yet, actually go to the computer.

58:52And if anything happened to the computer, that data would be lost. But now everything is stored in the cloud, everything on your phone is stored in the cloud. So, and I think that's a good thing because I think information is extremely important. Maddie, please. Hi, Ray Maddie from Houston, Texas. We've talked a lot about a post -scarcity world here, and I wanted to know how do you see the future of currency jobs and just general value? Well, Jones is actually a large section of my next book about jobs and what it is that we'd like to accomplish. And jobs have turned over many, many times. I mean, none of the jobs that people have in 1800 and it's almost true of 1900 to people who have today and yet we have many more people working.

59:48And jobs in general is something that people more and more actually like doing because it uses that creativity.

1:00:01And but we still see people striking over advancing retirement age from 60 to 62. I feel that I actually retired when I was five because I decided to be an inventor that really exciting to me and I'm still in a better so I think we'll be able to do what we want to do we'll be exposed to many more types of problems and we'd like to solve. We'll be able to solve things much more quickly than we did before but we get used to that and people forget what things are like people think the world is always the way it was today go back five years 50 years 50 years the future is always the same, but if you actually look at history, you see it's constantly changing.

1:00:49Thank you. Joe. Hi, right. Joe Honein from Baymar, Giant, Washington. Several years ago, I had asked you a question about, you know, these big ideas that you have, how do you work on it? When do you have time and you said, you assign yourself a question before you go to sleep and you activate your brain through that. My question is, do you still do that or do you rely upon GTP for something else for that now? But more importantly, you are such an amazing predictor of things. So what has surprised you? What is something that you didn't expect that you've seen? I think we don't be fascinated with that.

1:01:28Well, I'll start with that. I mean, large language models, it's quite consistent with what I've said, but I'm still amazed by it, right? I mean, you can put something into the computer and you get something that's totally surprising and totally delightful that didn't exist like a year or two ago. And even though I kind of saw that happening when I actually experienced it, it surprises me and it's quite delightful. And we're gonna see that more and more. I mean, every six months it's gonna be a whole new world. as for lucid thinking, yes, that's how I go to sleep. I go to sleep. And it's really kind of hard to go from a waking state like I am now to being asleep.

1:02:16So I start thinking about what could we do with computers and different things and just fantasize about that. And if something doesn't seem feasible, we'll figure that out and kind of step over will be able to do it anyway. I mean, that's how I go to sleep. And the morning, the best ideas actually are still there. So I do use Lizardraming to come up with ideas. Thank you, Joe. You, Seth. Welcome. Hi, Ray. This is you, Seth, from Abu Wai, the question for you, Ray, but also for the audience. So if you have any thoughts, I'd be at please reach out. So we're trying to rethink our parenting in Abu Dhabi and how we create more family time and engagement between parents and children, for young children.

1:03:03And I'm curious how we can adapt exponential thinking and abundant thinking into this and what are the these technology that might help us to, you know, disrupt this type of activities. Yeah, well, it doesn't make me think, what can we actually do with the extra time we have with working with computers and being able do things much more quickly. And actually I think it will help family time. If you talk to very busy people even today, they're so busy they have no time to deal with their family. So I do spend a lot of time, I actually learn a lot. My daughter is actually a cartoonist from New Yorker and she has very interesting ideas.

1:03:53And she's actually collaborated with her on many projects. So how you parent, I think it's different. There are different types of cultures and different things that we value in parenting. But I think we'll actually have more time for the positive aspects of that as computers do more than routine work that we'd rather not do. Thank you. I want to make a quick point here. If you went back 50, 70 years ago, if you were a parent and something happened with a child, you had no idea what to do. We had no resources. You could basically ask the immediate five people around you. And now we have data sets, socialization of issues globally, and you can ask the internet.

1:04:36There's a million resources, and I think we've probably taken parenting at least in order of magnitude, better than it was a few generations ago. And we don't, this is one of the examples that we don't see very often. interesting wisdom beyond actually I don't think I would have had the career I had if we didn't have a different attitude I mean I was six seven years old and I would actually wander through the neighborhood and find things and bring them back and this is not something you would allow a child to do then but that actually got me on this path that I'm still on. So let's go to our final question here.

1:05:14A good one to close on. I'm sure Dr. Alex Zegrov. Thank you. Great fan Alex Stravenka, I found it a company called Incelecom Medicine. And my question is maybe a little bit personal. So right now according to your bio, you are 75. And that's a very interesting age to be. I always like to talk to people on, you know, of various ages to understand how to plan my own life. And two questions. So one is what is your roadmap for your own personal longevity? How do you predict your own personal persona is going to evolve? What are you doing to live longer? And do you think you have a chance to live to, let's say, 200?

1:06:02And the second question is that if you were to go back in time, what would you have done differently in the past, let's say 20 years? Well, first of all, gains is 200, so there would be 125 years from now. How much technological progress will we make in the next 125 years? even 25 years. I mean, we're going to be able to overcome most of the problems that we have. 125 years, I mean, our thinking will be in the cloud, the cloud will be multiplied many times, will overcome some of the issues we have with people being depressed and so on. I mean, so it's not like living to 200. I mean, I think we'll get to a point where dying is going to be have an option that people don't use.

1:06:57And if you look at people that actually do take their lives, the only reason they take it is because they have terrible suffering from physical pain, moral pain, emotional pain, spiritual pain, but something is really bothering them and they just can't stand to be here. But if you actually live your life in a positive way, contribute to each other, I think we're going to want to live. And we're not that far away. I mean, I believe by 2029, that's like six, seven years from now, when you go forward a year, we're going to push your longevity escape, your life expectancy forward at least a year, and then ultimately more than a year.

1:07:40So rather than using uptime, we'll actually gain more time. And I really feel I'm doing what I did when I was five, six, seven years old. I have much more powerful tools now. And many more people are appreciative. And I appreciate the tools more than I did back then. But we're really discovery that's still a lot we don't know about the world. And we're going to continue to learn more and more about that. I think Gary, do you want to ask a quick prediction? Ray, when do you think we're going to have our personal robot buddy like Rosie the robot? Well, I mean, you're working on that. A lot of other people are working on it.

1:08:25I think that's actually a little bit behind what we've done with language. I think within five or six years, it's a 2029. We're going to have people that can help us. Some of them will look like humans because it's a useful way to look. I think humans are pretty good, but there's other ways that they can manifest themselves. We'll change who we are. We see that already. People dress up in ways that we're really not acceptable when I was like 10 years old. And that's going to expand far greater. But actually robots that do what humans do and can actually be put into places where we wouldn't want to put humans like a burning building.

1:09:10I think that's happening very soon over the next five, six years. Ray, our longevity platinum trip is going to be in August and September in Boston, Cambridge, near where you're living. I would love if you would come and spend the day with us there and go deeper into the that's happening world as well. That actually reminds me, yes, I'd love to do that. And I've greatly enjoyed the many presentations we've done together. I have this book coming out. The singularity is nearer or... And I would like to make that available to the people here. So I'll work with Peter in a way that we can actually get you a happy book, our friend.

1:09:57On that note, everybody, please give it up for Ray Kurzweil and Salimis Mayal.

1:10:26Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally Doug. Uh, Lemoo, is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual .com. Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts.