Why I'm Leaving My Company Immediately (Stability AI) w/ Emad Mostaque | EP #93

27:33Yeah, and again, I think people over focus on the models versus the data sets. I mean, is data sets? Yeah, yeah. With the exponential compute, you can recalibrate and improve the data as well. So right now a lot of the improvements in models are actually aesthetically improving data and data quality. As you said, there's so much that can be lost, but now we can actually capture this and the concepts and the other guidance. I have cross checks, right, you can deconstruct laws. You know, you can translate between contexts. You can make expert information available to everyone because again you have this new continent of AI around this and all these graduates seem to be specialists that are on your phone and that's incredibly democratizing you know because otherwise the knowledge is through our history knowledge has always been gate kept always.

28:26I want to get to help in education next but before we go there I know you were meeting with a mutual friend, Jules Urback, either day, and instability announced a deal with Otoi and Devar and Render Network. Are you still an advisor to that venture? And this is part of the whole thing. It's the first of many Web 3 kind of elements there. I think Web 3 is 95 % and I say 90 % will be generous, speculative and rubbish, But there is that 5 -10 % of genuine people that would be thinking about questions of governance, coordination and others, and have built things that are proper. So, Ottoy is the bridge to the creative industry, so I would argue very well and Eric Schmidt and others are on the board.

29:19And the Render Network is a million GPUs, largely from creative professionals that are available. And so the first thing I announced there, I was reading the short 10 million gaps, 250 million, of distributed compute to create the best 3D data sets, like accessibility. We funded and worked with Alan Institute and others on objverse Excel, which was 10 million high quality 3D assets. We're going to a billion distributed. You don't need giant super computers. But then that is a community good that is owned by the people of the network and accessible to non academic and others as well. Why? Because you need high quality assets to create better 3D models.

29:59We have a new 3D model, Tri -PoS, that can generate a 3D image from a 2D image in about 5 seconds. And that 3D model feeds into better 3D assets. And then what does that mean? It means we're heading towards a holodeck. Without the data, you're not going to get there. And that... Jules wants the holodeck for sure. Yeah, so you know, Jules and I are the same page of that, you know? and you're not going to get there without again a commons of data that can train the graduates that then become specialized with Star Trek or you know Star Wars or any of these other IPs and then also setting standards around monetization IP rights or sorts of other things.

30:38And so a network like render is really good for that. But you know I've been talking to a lot of people in Web 3 about the different elements of the stack. Because what I basically see is that we have the opportunity to build almost a human operating system. Models and data sets for every nation, every sector coordinated through proper Web3 principles. Again, not speculative tokens or anything like that. You know, making it so that every child in the world or adult can create anything they can imagine. They can be protected against the harms. And they have access to the right information at the right time to thrive.

31:15And again, that's infrastructure for everyone. It's a common good. Access to GPUs has been sort of the limited fuel. Do you think decentralized GPU structures like Render is part of that future? Is an important part of that future? I think so. Right now, it's far more efficient to train models on these, again, big, super computers, the university, but the rate of exponential growth, again, isn't safe. last year to train Lama 2 cost $10 million in a year or cost $10 ,000. A thousand times improvement from algorithms, data, super compute speeds. And that's crazy if you think about it, right? So I think this will be the limiting factor.

31:59I think the GPU overhang for language models probably lasts until the end of the year, but then this plentiful supply because what you have is Nvidia makes amazing GPUs at 83 or 87 % that the function, right? But the actual calculations aren't complicated. Like we took Intel GPUs and we ran the stable diffusion three diffusion transformer training. So this is the same technology that's used in Sora and stable diffusion three is multi -model so it can train Sora models with enough compute. And I think us and them are the other people kind of doing this. So I think maybe PICSART as well. And then it ran faster than the Intel GPUs than the Nvidia GPUs.

32:37But we know that it can run even faster because it's not optimized for either. It's still running fast. So what you'll see is a commoditization of the hardware. Once the architect just gets stabilized, because GPT -4 is just a research. Artifact. Stealth diffusion is just a research artifact. You're not getting engineering phase yet. And you've got to the point whereby this runs on Macbooks. It runs on other things. So I think it's a short -term phenomenon of the next year. Because people were taking a point in time and extrapolating without taking into account efficiencies optimizations and the fact that models that work on the edge and it can go to your private data will be more impactful than generalized intelligence.

33:21Everyone's overindexing on generalized intelligence and building AI God versus amplified human intelligence shall we say. Before we leave stability, it's now in the hands of the chair and your past CTO. What do you imagine the future of stability is going to be going forward? I know that you're not involved anymore. It's under different leadership. And there's what's your advice to them or where do you think they're going to go? I can't do it. The very basic advice I don't want any conflicts or anything because I'll be setting up lots of new companies and being a founder and a shareholder. And against a ability, I'm a founder, shareholder.

34:03In fact, you're still a majority shareholder, I think, I sort of right now, just about. That will change. I'm sure new money will come in like we still co -here yesterday and I think, to buy another 20 million of revenue run, right? They're raising it 5 billion. It's amazing. With the right leadership, I think that it can again have an amazing part to play in media and that's what I've suggested to it. And again, there's a great team that continues to ship great models. So last week there was an amazing code model. Next week, amazing language, audio and other models are coming out. So you know, you continue shipping and great products around that too.

34:42So that was kind of my advice to them. Let's focus on media and take that forward. But, you know, I'm not the expert on the business side of things. I did the best I could. My expertise on setting this up and taking it north to ten. And yeah, is your is your one is is definitely a role that that you've played here and allow it allows someone else to take the rest of the way. But the area that I know actually is something I wanted to kind of discuss here. I think it's quite important. Please, or again, the founders listing and the moonshot companies. There is an imbalance of power when you have very visionary, highly competent leaders there.

35:28Like, what I found its stability is that everyone would be waiting for me no matter how competent because I was the one that could see around the corners and I was a bit good at everything. Even if I hired people that had built billion dollar startups or were leaders and research Google or kind of whatever because you have an outside thing. This is what kind of job as I said, you have to speak last in some cases and some people are meeting because otherwise everyone just does everything you say and they also wait on you. Now what I've coined and what I told the team is that your flat as a power dynamic, you're on the same page, you're all kind of relatively equal owners and it'll be interesting to see how it evolves from that given that there's actually a business.

36:07And again, I think this is something that you probably had a challenge with and other founders here whereby they put more on your plate because you are so visionary and because you are like up there in the future and they're always waiting on you. So you was like, well, my schedule is completely packed. My schedule now is actually quite free, which is also quite nice. I've had a chance to speak with you every day for the last few days. So that's been a pleasure to have extra time on your schedule. You know, so so we do have a world of a visionary founder led CEO companies, right? So you've got Musk and you've got Bezos historically, you had Steve Jobs and you, and that's both powerful and dangerous.

36:47The power is the ability for that because we don't ever have a company that is pre -existing. A new CEO comes in and has the same, both Hutzpah and also the power of their vision. The danger there, your concern, you're saying is not allowing your team to step up with their own vision or being overly indexed on your vision. Yeah, I think that can be the issue and that's why I wanted to still let you to again reach the point of spread and revenue rate increase and other things before I do anything. I felt again this external pressure and that if nobody or there's very few people in the world actually thinking properly about governance and spread of others and a very small window giving the place of this to make a difference in the dent I believe they had a reasonable approach to that but I couldn't while remaining CEO of this company.

37:47And again it's a pretty unique scenario because you've never seen a sector with this fast that has such wide -reaching human implications. And, regressively, there's two few people, I think, with the right alignment and approach in this area. I've been very disappointed. Like, usually, what happens is you have power -lacxamization equations, and this is what we're seeing from the industry consolidation. How many people want to genuinely bring this technology to kids in Nigeria or to the global south, or to help those leaders build their own models, you know, and believe also in a positive some game.

38:26I was actually my biggest surprise from the discussion still at the convales. Almost entirely, they all believe in flat or negative some, you know, zero or some or negative some things where there has to be a winner. Everyone's a winner in this. And again, I was just very disappointed seeing that. I've been asking you for a while to write and distribute your vision white paper because I've heard you describe it in detail and it's brilliant and I still hope that the world will see it soon enough. Everybody, you want to take a break from my episode to tell you about an amazing company on a mission to prevent and reverse chronic disease by decoding your biology.

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40:36For a limited time, you can get up to 40 % off any Viome test using the code MoonShots. Just go to Viome .com, backslashMoonShots, and order your test today. Trust me. You won't regret it. Alright, let's go back to our episode. Before we jump into health and education, let's talk about governance a second because we've seen governance complicate this. What is the right governance structure for the super powerful technology. We have represented democracy that I think can be improved by this. Like I don't think democracy survives this technology yet it's current fall. They will either improve oil and I don't see anything else like yesterday.

41:16What does end what does end mean here? A benign dictatorship driven by an AI overlord. Yeah like yesterday there was an asked when of an app called HU, which had emotionally intelligent speech. And they can understand your emotions and talk with emotion. You know, I have to discuss this. Yes. You know what that's going, right? Very powerful. It's incredibly powerful. And governments have a tendency. I mean, it's stupid. But say it here, it's important for you to state what it means because we've discussed it, but help people here be ready for this. Democracy is all about representation and you see the questions of deep pegs and things.

41:58Speech is one of the most impactful elements there, but now you can't believe anything you see here, everything. So one path that we have is a 1984 on steroids, panoptical, you know, where life is gamified and you listen to whatever the government says and they're incredibly convincing and you're happy. And you've always been happy and you've always been at war with the Eurasia, you know, propaganda on steroids. The other part that you have is things like citizen assemblies, consultative democracy, the ability to take, right now you can take any of the bills in Congress and completely deconstruct them and find what the motivations are.

42:37You can check laws against the Constitution in second seconds. This is inherently powerful empowering technology from a democratic perspective. So I see two routes, unfortunately, because I think that once the thing goes, it goes is really fast. Centralized government control increasing because the government want to protect themselves as an organization. And you know, every party says the other party's crap. We've seen the increasing polarization in America already. And you know, fundamentally, come on, you can do better than those two leaders that are currently competing. I'm saying this is correct.

43:10Clear our system is sclerotic across this. Democracy is the worst of all systems them except for everyone else. You can have a better democracy, where it's actually represented and empowers the people. Oh, we will have the end of democracy, where it is a 1984 panel to quite in my opinion. Because the momentum will go then. Of course, you'll start using this technology. You're already seeing it being used, but not at scale, and not intelligently yet, which is scary. I think we finally have the technology for a direct democracy versus a representative democracy, right? Where I can have my desires directly represented on any specific law.

43:53But I think the point you've made before is that speech, if you look back to everybody from Hitler to some of the most persuasive politicians, is a powerful tool and AI can become the most persuasive speaker out there. It can take anyone's speech to make a far more persuasive. Like, I think my voice is a bit whiny. I can remove the wine. You know, I can go in a very polished British accent and other things like that, right? You know, you must fight them on the hills and the areas and whatever. Public speaking makes me a bit different. Someone took Hitler's speeches and put them through an AI and took them into English.

44:35because when we're not in the German context and we listen to them, it sounds like you're shouting like what else is crazy? You hear him in English, it is very different in his own voice. Just like someone took Chavia Melae's one in the United Nations and put him into English again, he sounds a bit sharp, how shouty, but then he sounds very reasonable when it's in English. And you can take the phenomes of a barmer's best speech and a bit of trumpinism and a bit of Churchill and you will have full modulation wave control over all of this. People are already using this technology that everyone should have a passcode with their loved ones because people are getting calls from their mother saying, help, I'm in an emergency and you just send money right now.

45:18And you cannot tell it and it calls at the emotional strings. And if you look at something like US radio and one side of the political divide is taking Imagine if you're hearing optimize speech every single day. That will have a huge impact and then they control the visuals and they control the other things. We're not set up for defenses. If it's if it's optimized speech for you specifically for you, right? For the kids you have, the age group they have, where you live, your historical background and so forth and end of one persuasive speech coming at you, the brain is not set up for defenses.

45:55We're not. And you know, we take this as an example of the YouTube algorithm. Like, YouTube as an organization is not even an organization. But it's an organization that ultimately is free engagement, which optimizes for more extreme content. So this is a dark place in YouTube, which is not to my spices. The ISIS video spread viral. I don't know, sometimes viral is good, sometimes viral is bad, that one was bad. Because it was extreme. And they didn't understand why. And if you look at it, But who are the largest generation of their companies? Google and Meta. And their business is advertising.

46:31Their business is manipulation and they are both a moral companies. Because why would you expect a company to have morality? Our governments are also a moral. And again, you can view these things as slow down may eyes so you can see the way they will optimize unless we do something about it. And they will have full control like, again, you put on your vision pro headset with your spatial audio, that is full sensory control. Not full, but you know what I mean? That's full immersion, full immersion, full immersion. And so we have to be aware of this. And there's obviously other tools that can be used, like in the wake of the ab spring, governments targeted everyone that was in social media, we can do that on a high personalized basis.

47:16Like we need to set some defaults and standards here to protect democracy. But again, why democracy? We're not really trying to protect democracy. You know, again, people have different definitions. Well, we're trying to protect this individual liberty, freedom and agency. Education should be about enhancing the education of a child that's not. You know, healthcare is sick care. Our government should uplift us, but how many people believe our governments do that rather than put us down? Because they couldn't encapsulate and came to two, the brilliance of each individual. Because they didn't have the tools until now.

47:54So that's why I said, which way? One. Yes, which way? Which is an agency or massive control. These are the two ways. Do we control the technology or do these organizations control the technology that controls us? You know, when we were on the stage at the Abundance Summit, we talked about a future of digital super intelligence, right? And a future in which we've got AI a billion times more capable than a human, which looking at it just from a ratio of neurons is the ratio of a hamster to a human.

48:31Do you believe that someday we could have a benign super intelligence that is supporting humanity. Yes, and I believe that it should be a collective intelligence that is made up or amplified human intelligence is amplifying all of us pilots that contain our collective knowledge and culture and the best of us and datasets that are built from helping and augmenting us versus a collected intelligence and AGI that is top down and designed to effectively control us. Again, And if you look at open AI statements on the road to agile, they say, this technology will end democracy and capitalism and maybe kill us all.

49:15I don't like that. I remember seeing that you texted me, said, read this. Does this sound the same as it does to me? Yeah. So what would prefer instead is for this to be distributed. Like if you have data sets, formations that are built on enhancing the capability information, they reflect the local cultures and you push for data transparency on models, which I believe we must have. you know, especially language models, then you're more likely to have a positive thing. And again, the human collective can achieve anything from splitting the atom to go into space if we put our minds to it. But we have lacked in coordination mechanisms.

49:51They've not been good enough. So if you create the human colossus and every single person has an AI that's just looking at put them to enhance their potential in coordination ayes, that is a far more positive view of the future and that is the AGO. That is a general intelligence. That's the high of my general intelligence. Not a bog style high of mind, but one that's really thinking again, every charge should achieve their potential versus this embodied concept of an AGO that's a very Western concept. You see that as well like, you know, we look at the Japanese concept of a robot. The robot is your equal and your helper.

50:25You look at the Western concept of the robot, it's Terminator and SkyNet and all of that. And again, I think this is again where cultural norms become very interesting. And what do we want to build? We want to build AI God, or do we want to build that AI helper that helps us and we help it, you know? Those listening now, I mean, you can see Emoids brilliance and why I'm so enamored with the way you think about this, because there are very few individuals who are looking at this from an objective function of what's best for humanity, what's best for every nation state. out there. Let's talk about your going forward future.

51:07Are you going to build something in the decentralized side of AI, the democratized side of AI? Is there a company there or a fund in your future for that? Yeah, so I'm doing the light paper finally, standing there with a bit of help from AI. I can't wait to help broadcast that white paper. But look, I think the basic thing is, what I want to do is set up a AI champion in every nation with the brightest people of each nation working with the organization in each nation to help guide them through this next period. Because there will be massive job displacement from the graduates going, massive uplift some productivity from the technology being implemented.

51:51And again, that organization can help govern and create these data sets and these models that are so important. And every nation should have that. But then I also believe that every sector should have a gen to VI first infrastructure company that builds this and helps the healthcare company, Spine ads companies and others through that. To coordinate all of that, you need to have a Web 3 type protocol. What is the protocol for intelligence? So what is a Web 3 type protocol to find that for folks listening? Again, people talk about Web 3. It's not about the tokens or the meme coins or anything like that.

52:25What about through post call is that everyone should have like AIs, first of all, aren't going to have bank accounts. They're going to need some way to pay each other or exchange value. And again, Web3 is doing a lot of work in that. There needs to be some sorts of identity, attribution and other format because you'll have this mass -inplugged zone information. And so again, Web3 concepts are very useful there. There needs to be an identity concept because you have real and digital people. Web3 concepts are very useful. there. So, data, assustation, all these other things, verifiability. So, when I look at it, if you've got sectorally, my plan is to launch a Mr.

53:03Company for every major sector, and we can talk about health and education, and bring the smartest people in the world to solve that challenge of the infrastructure for the future, every nation, but you need to have some sort of coordinating protocol for all of that that becomes a standard. And that's the substrate for this amplified human collective intelligence. And is that where you want to play and focus your energy next. Yeah, it's setting up these organizations and bringing the brightest, smartest people that really want to make a difference there because there's massive network of pecs in doing this.

53:35But again, I just need to be the founder and architect. I don't want you around the day to day of any of these things. And then because the most guest talent, the three types of capitalers of you, there's financial capital, human capital and political capital. and also effectively change the world you actually need all three. But the financial capital actually comes with the people capital and the political capital and the smartest people in the world in every sector from healthcare to education to finance to agriculture. Almost all believe that Jennifer is the biggest thing they've ever seen in the last year.

54:11Everyone's asking you all the smartest people, Peter what's next right? And you know many of the smartest people in the world. So I want to create organizations that they can come, the chefs and the cooks, the thinkers and the doers and think, what is the future of finance, of the future of education, and in the national champions that should be owned by the people of each country, become the distribution for the amazing infrastructure that they built. And there's a nice kind of vice versa, but then again, you need the coordination function. So I'm trying to bring together people in each of these, and there'll be public calls and things like that to build that infrastructure the future because as mentioned AI is an infrastructure that should be I mean maybe it's the rocket ship of the mind right I love that I love that analogy my friend it is the most important infrastructure that humanity will have going forward across everything it does and I look forward to helping you build it exciting right like it is I think I think one of the things I got I got lots of messages they're like I'm so sorry for your loss.

55:10It was like my dog had died after I left to see her. I was like, what is that? You know, they're like, I was like, it's like that people care, right? But I'm generally excited about what's next. Like, you know, again, it was like staring into the abyss and chewing glass every single day. And that's not what I'm best at or where I could have the most impact. But I wanted to be a point whereby if I can accelerate this over the next period, I don't have to make an impact. I should not have any power on this. Whereas again, you see, everyone else trying to get more and more power. I want to make sure it's set up properly, but I want to give it all away because power is obligation, it's dragging, and again, it should not be invested in any one individual.

55:53We shouldn't have to rely on anyone being nice, or good for this technology. I was talking to Michael Sailor during the abundance summit that evening and talking about the fact that because Satoshi, when he set it up, did not retain any power and did not trade on the founding blocks and so forth, that that's the reason that's been able to succeed because there wasn't that centralized power. And Bitcoin had been tried many times before, but because it didn't have that initial anonymity and the dissolution of founding power that's the reason it didn't succeed. Yeah, I mean, again, I think you need to have it accelerate and you see this with movements, right?

56:39The movement starts, but then it goes once the DNA and the story there, right? You know, you see the profits, you see the leaders, you see the others, but then it's about setting the framework correctly and reframing the concept. This technology is not going to be on, years ago, I'm over chicken shop in London, right? You know, my first 20 employees, I went to the job center and I said, bring me people that have overcome adversity and I will train them. Young graduates and six of them are still at stability, you know, like because it was a program and they're doing things from cyber security to around the super computers.

57:16We only had like 16, 17 PhDs. Yet we built the state of the art models in every of a We built mind reading models like minds like, you know, I remember that contributed to all these things Yet you're told it's impossible to compete. We have shown it's not impossible to compete. That's a reframing The reframing is data versus models. It's you don't need giant super computers for everyone. You just need to have a trusted entity to build it right You know, and so I hope to kind of convey this and then figure out this organizational structure that can pull it for it So I can take the holiday So before we go further, let's talk about one area of your next chapter in life that we both have as a passion, which is the use of generative AI and health.

58:02It's an area that you've given a huge amount of thought to, and I think you're excited about. Can you share what your vision is there? Yeah, so I got into AI 13 years ago, gosh, that was a program of before the 23 years, building your lost -girl systems as a hedge fund manager and other things. Well, my son was diagnosed autism and then I built an NLP team to amize all the clinical literature show and then looked at biomedical pathway analysis of neurotransmitters, the algorithm used to make in the brain to repurpose drugs for him and it went to me as your school which was great and equals one.

58:34And then I was one of those lead architects on the one of the COVID AI projects of the United Nations, not just Stanford and others and then because they didn't get the technology I was like, well we've got to build it ourselves. But what is health? You know, again I think we heard this discussion a lot. Health care is sick care. We don't have all the information that we should have at our fingertips. Health assumes ergo density, a thousand tosses of the coin, the same as the coin tosses a thousand times, but we are all individual. And across the world there are amazing data sets that could be better because when you write down a clinical trial or your own kind of experiences you lose so much information.

59:14At the same time you don't have all the information on cancer or is a multiple sclerosis at your fingertips and the compounds of authority of an upstate way. So let me look at the help operating system. We're going to build a GPT -4 open for cancer. And it's going to mean that nobody is alone again on that journey and loses that agency because they know compounds of authority of state or the knowledge. But AI models today already outperform human doctors and empathy. So they're not going to be alone on that anymore. Yeah, can I just double click on what you just said because it's really important.

59:49I have so many people because of my role as chairman of Fountain Life who reach out and say, I just got diagnosed with this cancer or my brother or my sister or my wife. There is, there left with this decimating use and there left googling. But a model that's able to have the most cutting edge information and then incorporate all their medical data and give them advice and empathic fashion. How far is that? See, a couple of years if we focus maybe even next year. That's amazing. There it is. For all of these topics, again, we will have diagnosis that it's superior. We will have research augmentation because we can even research us don't have all that knowledge of epitomites.

1:00:36Again, this is public infrastructure and a public good. From primary care all the way through to that, what is the open infrastructure of the future? With this technology can come again to your own data as well. You have things like melody and other things around hallmorphic encryption federated learning that they're trying to figure out how to preserve privacy. We can run a language model on a smart phone right now that can analyze all your data and then just feed back stuff to a global collective but people are people. So when I look at healthcare I see amazing data sets that we can activate by taking the models to the data and infrastructure that we can build like we had checks agent with Stanford the top X -ray radiology model to build good standard things across the entire gamut of healthcare.

1:01:21So we actually get it to healthcare versus sick care. So we can make it so that everyone is empowered to make the best decisions either as experts or individuals and make it so nobody is alone again. As well as increasingly data quality that will then feed better models that will then say lives, safe suffering and again increase self -attention. Like you've got along the long sugar behind you, right? Why don't you have all the latest knowledge of longevity at your fingertips, a GPT -4 level right now? That will happen over the next year. We will launch the overhead or whatever decide to call it and there will be the smartest people in each of these areas working on that.

1:01:59So again, you're never like, this might be your heart, if you're with $100 billion in your kid has autism, ASD. There's no cure, there's no treatment, and there's nothing. Doesn't matter how rich you are, yet we're just a little bit of effort right now. We can build it as an open infrastructure for the 5 % of people in the world that know some with autism, the 50 % of people in the world. That receive a cancer diagnosis for them of someone they love, and they feel that loss of agency. So we're gonna return agency to humanity that way. And again, it needs to be an open infrastructure that they can then access private data sets and compensate them appropriately.

1:02:35So everyone is incentivized. We need that fast. Yeah, and that's a beautiful vision. It is, again, infrastructure. And one of the things that's so beautiful about it is, guess what, all 8 billion people were all human. We're all running the same software. And the breakthroughs and the knowledge accumulated in, you know, in Kazakhstan is going to be as useful in Kansas. Yeah. But this is the thing, operating system. And this is the biggest upgrade to the hemopurative system we can imagine because we're going from analog to digital. Text is black and white, whereas these models only understand context.

1:03:16Daniel Cannon went just past, amazing kind of guy. But he just had this concept of type one type two thinking. And so we had one, which is these big data things, a Canadian extrapolate. But now we have these models to understand context. And so we have the missing parts of the brain, and that will allow us too extravagant, it allows to have wall rainbows. You know, how the context of each individual question tells us to the edge. And that's why again, there was this imperative to do this now because there's a window on the freedom agency democracy side. But the other imperative is no one should have to suffer as they're suffering now.

1:03:52Yeah, amazing. And how much does actually need, doesn't need that much, which is the really amazing stuff. This, the total amount spent in Joan Tiber, I think I said that the conference is less than the total amount spent on the Los Angeles San Francisco Railway, which hasn't even started yet. And in building stable health again, if that's what it's called, I mean, the amount of capital required to build that is diminimous compared to what spent on a single human trial of any drug. It is, but then you know, you build it and you get to that 80, 20 incredibly quickly that will change hundreds of millions of lives and that will attract the smartest people in each of these areas.

1:04:31Think about what is the opening of the structure of multiple sclerosis, of longevity of cancer and more. But then you can amp that because the value is so, so huge and you, I hope to build a trusted organization as part of this whole human operating system upgrade. That's why I want to build it. I want to build human OS. Well at least catalyze it again. I don't want to run or control or own anything. I want to check if I had to give back that control because who should decide what council knowledge goes and like who should decide or education etc Let's talk about the second half of your of your vision Which is how we originally met when you were one of the winners of the global learning x prize that Elon and Tony Robbins had co -funded Your your vision around education Speak to us about that Yeah, you know, so we're deploying it, kind of the winnance, kind of separate, but every child, my entire credit system is like, if you think about things in terms of the rights of the child and today, they have no agency, and so we must respect their rights.

1:05:38Climate, everything becomes a lot simpler. Now that we have language models on a laptop, like I said, you can go to lmstudio .ai,

1:05:52download It's crazy. We can have a GPT -4 level AI from us or someone else on a smartphone or a tablet by next year. One laptop per child was too early. Now we have this transformative technology. You have an AI that teach the child, learns from a child, are you visual or did treat dyslexic? That's the best data in the world for a national model, but also to teach these models how to be optimistic, how to be intelligent. which is, this really is the young ladies illustrator, Primer, this really is Neil Stevenson's vision in that regard. Yeah, but Nelson have had to find the primer. She should have had it from day one.

1:06:33As a human right. As a human right, yes. Our school's education system are childcare mixed with the social status game mixed with petri dish. They teach our kids not to have agency. where they should be telling the kids. Yeah, they should be teaching. So it's a relic of the industrial age where everyone had to be counted and you can't measure what you can't manage. So you manage the creativity and belief out of people. Everyone in the world can do anything. Why? Because even if you don't have that talent, you can convince someone else who does have that talent. But they don't believe it. So they can't do it.

1:07:10So perhaps if we have an entire nation of of children that have this helper that brings the right information, the right time and time and time and time and they can always believe that supports them. Entire world. What can't you do? You know, then they have all of the cancel knowledge of their fingertips and all of the engineering knowledge of their fingertips. And it's a constantly learning, adaptive and improving system. Again, right now almost the entire AGI and AI debate is about these machine gods train on giant supercomputers that bestow their benefits down or make kill us or whatever. What about that human operating system upgrade that is a decentralized intelligence with that kid and long early or Malawi or whatever can make a real difference to humanity.

1:07:54Some of the contributors to our open code basis for our models are 15 years old. You know, they just taught themselves and just have them to be their wizards. You don't know in this new age, right? And again, they should contribute to the whole because once something goes into this model or this system, and again, it needs the verification and other things that can be dynamic. They can proliferate everyone using that system. Do you think that once this capability is built, it will run into blocks in different nations? Or do you imagine that this will become a human right? And not all, I mean, listen, there's no greater gift and no greater asset you can give to a nation's populist and intelligence and education.

1:08:41But I'm not sure every national leader wants to see that. That's why I think again there is a gap here. There's a year maybe where you can go to any national leader and say, I open this technology to your people and I will empower the smart, stupid people and I want to be earned by the people and what option do they have? This is positive for them. What happens is that a lot of the corruption in the world is because of local maxima. Yeah, actually it's weird because unpredictable production is the worst. Predectival corruption is a bit like tax. You know, there's a good post book by a professor at a job in a bit halberd about this.

1:09:15And then you have taxation kicking at 14%. If you can show something bigger and this is clearly big, they will embrace this technology in a set of new norms. And if you prep the same across all these countries with talented individuals in each of those groups and talented individuals in each of those sectors with a shared mission, even of the separate organizations, that's how you set amazing standards. That's how you build a network effect. And if you tie them all together with a intelligent protocol, and you're going to talk about tokens or speculation or ramps or anything like that, but taking the best of thinking around coordination, that can work, that can break this open, you know.

1:09:53But it's not going to be everywhere. And also when you look at the current debate, the current debate is, for example, we can't let China have this technology. And you're like, what about the kids in China? Well, you know, it's dangerous. They can have a GI. So under what circumstance would China ever have this technology never? You know, Pakistan, unfortunately, they have the tech never. That's really what they're kind of saying. It's also self -defeating because China has 100 million people they can use to create data sets and two X -of -Lop -2 computers. Let's put that to the side. Again, it's a very western oriented debate, whereas actually if you go to these countries and you talk to the leaders and the family officers that have power and the people, they will leap frog in the global style to intelligence or mentation like they let frog to mobile.

1:10:39They want to embrace this technology. And again, you can set norms now versus what's going to happen is, you know, they will get a centralized solution or adopt that instead. If you don't right now. 100 million billions of people. That's why I think again it's a crossroads. Is there anybody else working towards the decision that you know of? No. In the large AI panel. No, certainly no one credibility and again that's why I had to build these models, you know, and I had to kind of do this. Everyone's working on tiny parts of this, but they're expecting emergence, build it and somehow it will spread.

1:11:17And again this is why I out of the fascinating web3 community. There are good people in there, and I hope to be able to unite them, just like hope to unite the people in health and others. A &P to you've seen people working on tiny parts of this. But this isn't a Manhattan project where we're facing an enemy, understand the enemies ourselves, you know. But this does require this big global coordinated push. And that's why I've designed this system. I believe we'll work because all about the talent and it is multiplicative. is the race against a really powerful centralized AI systems that achieve some version of AGI, is that what we're racing against?

1:12:00Yeah, again, we're racing against ourselves. Like, humans can scale through stories. You have organizations, you know, come and join a band, come and go to Oxford, come and do this. But then when we scaled through text, text was a lossy information format and there was this poem by Ginsburg Howl about this car for getting in demon of disorder molloc that comes in. Molloc comes in through the data loss. Our organizations are slow down my eyes. But now what's happening is they're configuring to achieve the thing of getting more and more power. Again, corporations are technically a people under law, but they're not fully formed people.

1:12:37They eat our hopes and dreams. So I believe the competition here is against those organizations consolidating too much power and creating norms that are almost impossible to break. So we're almost competing against ourselves. And again, the question is this, do you believe it amplified human intelligence or do you believe in artificial general intelligence? Do you believe in collective intelligence or do you believe in collected intelligence? who decides is this infrastructure or is this a product like so it's not like a Manhattan project against you know the Soviet so I like that but it is required us all to come together or at least the smartest people in each of these areas from coordination to governance systems to healthcare to education with a blank slate of how do we upgrade the human operating exist in the time is now, it saw lost chance to do it.

1:13:31And I love you for it because I think you're right. You were there when Elon beamed in on XX video over Starlink and from his airplane, which was a fun moment. And we were talking about the rate of growth and his statement, because you know, it recurs while I was in rate and written Elon saying we'll have AGI, whatever that means by next year and the intelligence of the entire human race by 2029. So, I am curious just to close out what you think about that those timelines and that potential for a super intelligent AI system that is centralized. because that's the people who are building the level of power or building centralized systems.

1:14:29They're building centralized single systems that again take off collected intelligence like all of YouTube in the case of OpenAI clearly and other things and they package it up, sell it back to us but they don't care. You know these organizations are trying to build a system that will take away our freedom, liberty and potentially kill us all. Let's be kind of fair about that. and sell it to us on an incremental basis. The selling to us is a complete cannot. They don't care about the revenue of this. Again, let's try to call a spade a spade. They are telling you that they're building something that could kill you and something that could remove all our free demand liberty.

1:15:09And they're saying it's a good thing you should back them because it's cool. It's not. It's actually shameful if you think about it. And we should not stand for it anymore. And you listen to other reason I want to start to see it. because you can't say things like that. I've got cancel and circle values so many times. But realistically, it's ridiculous and it should not be stood for. But they're gonna do it anyway, because they have the political power, people are scared of them. So there has to be an alternative and they'll turn it to, it has to be distributed intelligence. When I resigned, I said you can't beat centralised intelligence, centralised intelligence, you're not gonna beat it with this stability.

1:15:43So this is a great organisation, it's gonna do well. The only way that you can beat it to create a standard that represents humanity is decentralized intelligence, its collective intelligence and the data sets and norms from that will be ones that help children that help stop people suffering, that reflect our moral upstanding and the best of us and gather the best of us to do it. Because if you work in healthcare, if you work in education, if you work in finance, if you work in any of these things, there's no organization for you to come and join or partner with on this. There's no kind of centralized mission I have looked I've wanted to help other people I didn't want to do this myself and I don't want it to be about me very very quickly and should I'm kind of getting it out there now.

1:16:29I hope that I can capitalize something that then people will take forward and time is now for that because AGI when it comes if it comes again there's various definitions of this. Why on earth do you need any knowledge workers? Anything that can be done via a laptop doesn't need humans. And so you have concepts of UBI here. You have concepts like, when a H .I .E .J. comes, you don't need money. Money is a common story, is a common good. We heard it to a post -capitalist society. I think, the example I think you said was, Star Trek vs Mad Max, you know? I'm like Star Trek vs Star Wars. I think there's a...

1:17:06You know? And so you're gonna go to the Sith Loads and all of that. But again, if you kind of look at this, I don't think we need money like it's cross -contextual like buttering with our AI systems representing us. Or it's you don't need money because you're told what to do. Again, our government, the definition of a government is the entity with an opulent political violence, and an AGI can overtake any government that they can they control the people. Because again, listen to it whispering, look at the kind of human thing. So we have this opportunity to set norms right now. The way that the big labs are going to AGI is likely to kill us all.

1:17:45Elon and I signed that six month pause letter because even though people like Emma had your acceleration, she put all this open source AIA. You have to think about the other side and think about that discussion. And again, if we build an AGI as a centralized thing, is Windows or Linux safer as infrastructure? Our entire internet infrastructure is built on open. Open can be charged, open can be augmented, and monolith is light to be crazy. And the way that I put this is, we unite both in so many geniuses. Side effect of genius is insanity, honestly. We're not meant for geniuses and not mentally stable.

1:18:23Why would you expect an age to be so? And you're putting all your ends in one basket versus creating a complex hierarchical system that is a hive mind that's the intelligence that represents us all. We should be working towards building that and it's safer, it's better, it achieves all the benefits that people are talking about and it's possible today. Do you think Elon shares in this vision of a decentralized AI? Do you think he would play in that area? And do you think any of the national leaders that you've been speaking to would support that kind of a vision as well? I can't speak for you, I'll speak to you, and see what you fix, then I'll get back to you.

1:19:01You always says what you fix. But you need to be immensely concerned, I was on the leaders in this area saying, originally, why Google? You know, now I'm Microsoft open AI, like it can't be centralized, but it's difficult. It's a difficult question. How many people have a feasible solution? Or have you even thought about this properly? You and I both know just not many, and that's very sad. should be everyone thinking about this. On the leaders side, all the leaders I've met are super happy, you know, because they... Again, leaders want power, they want control and all of this, but generally like they want to see abundance.

1:19:36They're not happy with where their countries are and they embrace this technology, they know they can leave ahead and you know, they will still have a say in all of this. It's not like it's kicking them out or removing them. There are still various kind of mechanisms there. And ultimately, improving the health, education and capability of your people is not about it. I mean, like, obviously, I haven't talked to the completely oppressive leaders, you know, maybe that'll be an interesting thing. But honestly, I don't want to even be talking to leaders. I want to create a system that the people of the country coming together with the franchise system can then build this technology for the good of their people in the open and not be reliant on anyone politically or any other thing like that.

1:20:17So you don't need to drive and see the computers for where we go. Are you called nation? You need a few drives to see the computers. Yeah. What's your timeline for putting out this white paper? I'm working as hard as I can. I've held you to this a number of times. I said, get the vision out there. It's getting there. We're about to go off the school to a four hour session to dictate to all the various bits and pieces. I mean, it was impossible when I was a senior of stability. There was always another fire, there was always another thing I didn't have time to think. You know, and I hope people can take that white paper and make it better.

1:20:50I don't have all the answers. I'm just trying to capitalize something, man. I think after I heard you step down, I wrote you a text and congratulations. Yeah exactly. It all commiserations. Time to feel unleashed. Yeah. Yeah. EMA, thank you, my friend. Thank you for sharing where you are, what led up to this, where you're going next, and really pulling the gloves off on discussing the idea of centralized, closed AI systems and their dangers and the importance of the vision that you portrayed, because I'm fully supportive and full believe that what you've laid out is probably one of the most seen visions of AI in the future that I've heard.

1:21:40I hope other people agree, you know, and they can take it forward. Another y 'all hear us. Thank you. Thank you, pal.

1:21:59And Doug, here we have the Lemo Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally Doug. Uh, Lemo, is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual .com. Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty. Savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and Affiliates excludes Massachusetts.