Mailbag, incl: Does a rising tide lift some boats further? November 16, 2025

23:50So they have your information. It probably doesn't matter whether they get hacked or something else to some level. But unless you're leaving the crypto or the Bitcoin with the exchange itself, there's no reason not to use the cheapest one, I suspect, Ram. Yeah. Other than just for purely kind of, you know, the mission reasons of supporting those who, you know. That's it for me. I want to support the good guys. That's all it is, really. And I shouldn't want to put my judgment on anyone. Everyone should do whatever they feel is appropriate. But I just do know that when you look at this history of scam and grift in this industry, it's the wrong thing to call it an industry because it's really just, there's one thing and then there's a bunch of grifters.

24:27It is horrible. There's a bunch of stuff, particularly off internationally based, you know, things in other jurisdictions. It's just you hear so many horror stories and these guys, Hard Block, Amber's also good, I should have mentioned them before, and Bitteroo, they're all Australian-based, regulated, licensed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and have very principally turned their back on an incredible money-making opportunity because of their principled stance. And I like to support those guys over these big, big crypto casinos that are unfortunately more dominant. And they're more dominant because they make more money.

25:05And because they make more money, they have more regulatory access. And there's a whole rabbit hole I could go down now, but I won't. Other than to say, shout out to the people at ASIC who think Bitcoin and Fartcoin are the same thing. So great work, Asik. Great work. You've really done your homework there. Oh, dear. Yeah, I can't easily work out the cost of the – I bought – I think I bought for free as a spread and there was a withdrawal fee to move it from the Bitteroo exchange to my whole lot. Yep. Yeah, you know. I mean, yeah, James, you may not just keep your cost low because why wouldn't you?

25:47So go for it. You'd say the same. I'm not going to put words in your mouth, mate, but I reckon you'd say the same when it came to brokers, right? That's a great example because I use ComSec and they are probably the most expensive discount broker. They're not expensive, expensive, but every time I make a trade on ComSec, yeah, I can probably do it for half the price. You've got Robin Hood, right? I mean, free brokerage there. I mean, I do use Perl or I use Shares. I've mentioned both those before. I like both those guys. I like them better than ComSec in the sense that they are trying to do the right thing for people.

26:15not that CompSec's trying to do the wrong thing but CompSec's trying to make money into trades right Perla was started by some guys who were like what if we could make long term investing actually profitable for us and successful for our users that's a pretty I like the Bitcoin stuff that's a pretty cool mission the Chainsaw guys did the same in the US in New Zealand so what if we could just make it democratise and make it really accessible and kind of friendly and easy to do rather than have to go through one of these big bank brokers I like them both I like what they're doing I use all three I use CompSec far more why?

26:41because I'm used to it and it's fine and the service is good and the fee I pay is so irregular that if I'm right about the investing, it's kind of regardless. Again, I'm not saying don't worry about money. I'm not saying pay any fee. And if you want to use Coinbase, go for it. I use Bitterroot because I had no idea what the hell I should do and Raymond mentioned Bitterroot before. And that was honestly, that was the extent of my detail because I just want to get into the process and kind of go from there. There was a second part to James' question in terms of how does it become the – Can you remind me of that?

27:09Like if the fees are so high, how can it ever become something? Yes. The thing's called Hidercard Cost, if I'm curious, How can Bitcoin become a global currency if we're losing 2 % each time we convert into Bitcoin? Yeah. So, again, you've got to – it's difficult because there's a point-in-time phenomena and there's sort of like an end-state sort of phenomena as well. So, we will see what happens. But there will become a time where you don't ever sell your Bitcoin. You just spend it directly. There will come a time – Yeah. Well, you don't ever – you can't buy Bitcoin. You just earn Bitcoin. It's just money.

27:42Like, it's really hard to wrap your head around. you spend the bitcoin at the shops where do you buy your australian dollars from it's like it's a nonsensical nonsensical question like i buy my australian no i get a job and that's how i get my australian dollars like that that's that you might not like yeah my bet is that's where we're ultimately going over the course of decades but but yeah u.s dollars but americans own u.s dollars and you know it's it's all it's it's a function of what your what your native currency is what money do you want and here's the other thing have you ever tried exchange have you ever tried exchanging, speaking of US dollars, to Australian dollars at an airport?

28:16Do you think they're charging more or less than these exchanges? It's insane. By the way, let's not pick on the money-changing booth at the airport. Commonwealth Bank, ANZ, Westpac, all the major - West Union and WISE and OFX all exist because these guys just - They won't exist for much longer. But yeah, absolutely. And that is like, so the Commonwealth Bank, if you walk in there with a greenback, the Benjamin Franklin and say, I want to turn this into Australian dollars, get back to me and tell me what it charges. I will bet you my left arm and my firstborn that they charge you in percentage terms far more than what one Bitcoin does.

28:57Right. And here's the other thing too. It's sort of like if you want to look at this as an investment, which I think it's, you know, I would maybe frame it a little bit different, which is going to really start messing with your head. But honestly, if you are, are you really looking at, are you buying this thing because you feel it's going to give you a 4%, 5%, 6 % annualized return? Like if you are, I was like, yeah, those fees are, maybe you need to think about it. If you think it's sort of like long-term averages, it's compounding at like 70 % per. And it'll never sustain that. It can't, law of large numbers.

29:32But I would suggest there's two paths here. It's either relevance or global reserve currency status. Like that's kind of the path you're on. And if you think it's the first one, then why are you buying it? And if you think it's the second one, do you care that you paid$3 to buy 10 grand worth or whatever, you know, whatever the number happens to be? Like it's sort of, you've got to put it in context. And finally, the one true holy asset that everyone in Australia wets their pants about, have you ever tried buying a house? Like what's the transaction, in percentage terms, what's the transaction fee on that?

30:06And it's like, no one's going to go, well, housing's a terrible investment because you've got to pay this much in stamp duty and this much in commission to the real estate agent. It's like, there's always these fees and they should be fees because someone somewhere is providing a service, whether or not it's egregious or not, and it's absolutely egregious when it comes to property and general money FX transfers, that is the decision for you to make. But I would certainly consider my personal humble opinion is don't shoot yourself in the foot trying to save three bucks in 2025 for something that could be worth 10x to 100x over the next decade or two.

30:43My little opinion. Yeah, I think, I mean, I take the property point, but it's not really existing as a form of money, so it's not quite the same analogy that James is making, but you're right overall. Expansions for all asset acquisitions and disposals. Yeah, and it's also, I mean, look, Rand and I are old enough to remember when you could go to a full-service broker and buy$150 in 1985 money to make a share sale. Yeah. Actually, when I first started at ComSec way, way back in the day, full-service brokerage was, I think, I want to say$60. Yeah, and that was full-service at ComSec as opposed to full-service that insert investment bank.

31:17Yeah, full service makes it sound like some white gloves. It's just like a 22-year-old me on the other end of the phone pressing buttons onto a computer. It was$60. Like, you know, for what? I know some of the, and I won't mention any names, but, you know, the usual kind of, the old-style stockbrokers, you know, they change your calendar at Christmas and, you know, you meet them in the office twice a year and they charge$150 a trade. And so, you know, we could have said then, how is share investing ever going to be accessible to everybody if it's that price? The answer is it didn't say that price.

31:45So I don't know whether Bitcoin exchange fees end up at 2 % or half that, but I would suspect it's probably a tenth of that at some point. And again, to a ram's point even then, it's a question of how much and how frequently are you exchanging dollars for Bitcoin anyway and how much is left on-chain? There you go. Did I get that right? Yes, 100%. All right. Luke says, Gents, I think you've got too much integrity. I think I've got too much integrity. I think you've got too much integrity to make me flatter you. Just get my question read. And with small kids in my family, meaning flu season is always here, I'd rather not kiss the ring and risk getting you two selfless superheroes of financial wisdom sick.

32:19Still, I love the pod. Thank you. Yeah, no, that's, I just, yeah, you really didn't think they went through it. They didn't kiss the ring anymore. Let's just wave from a distance. Okay. Yeah, okay. Fair enough. All right. Luke's going to challenge you here, mate. I love it. I love a good challenge. Now, says Luke, you often say that rising house prices don't actually make us richer. It's just a rising tide lifting your boats. But, here's a thought. If someone's got an offset mortgage, a jump in property value lets them unlock equity to invest elsewhere. If they're disciplined, they're moving money from a slow-growing asset into shares that might grow much more quickly.

32:55Over time, doesn't that make them genuinely wealthier than someone whose only asset is their home, even though both are lifted by the same tide? Please tell me I've cracked the code here. This isn't just another edge being gained by the new lords and rulers of this Dickensian Australia, property owners. Thanks again for your wonderful wisdom, Luke. It depends, Luke. I mean, what are you buying with the equity and how well are you going to do it? So he's saying shares, he said. Well, there's 2 ,200 shares on the market. Almost all of them are rubbish. And I'm not trying to be deliberately facetious here, but you hear the same argument.

33:34Well, not a similar argument with all kinds of strategies. You know, it's like, as Scott likes to say, if is the biggest little word in the English language. So if you draw down on your equity and you invest that money in something that has a higher rate of return than the interest charge and the asset that you're collateralizing the loan against doesn't fall in a heap, then yeah. I mean, I'm not going to. That's just math. I'm not going to argue with the math. The math is right. But there's someone out there who will do exactly that and go and buy Fartcoin and lose the lot. and there'll be someone out there who buys a company that cures cancer and makes out like a band.

34:13So you're right in terms of potentially you can do that. And I think this is a little bit of why it makes me a little bit nervous in the sense when you get to a stage, it's not just profit, it's any asset market. When you get to the stage where it's just, it goes up because it always goes up and it just becomes this unchallenged, unquestioned article of faith that it will always do thus. And given that it will always do thus, it is incumbent upon me to take maximum leverage and expose myself to that. It's just, well, maybe not. There's no such thing as a free lunch. There's no such thing as a risk-free trade.

34:55I'm not having a go. I think I've mentioned it a few times lately because I think it's a little closer to home and therefore a little bit more real to people. but Auckland property prices have dropped more than 20 % in the last year. It's a first world nation, same culture. You know, that's going to offend a lot of Australians and Kiwis, I'm sure. But very similar, right? Like we share a lot of values. Yes, I know that there's some structural, some important structural differences between our two economies. But, you know, it's just another example of it can happen. And people always assume that when I say this, oh, you're predicting the property market to crash.

35:31No, it's just to point out that it can happen. It happened in Spain. It happened in Ireland. It happened in the US. It happened in Greece. It happened in New Zealand. Now happened in New Zealand. And yet for some reason we go, no, it can't happen here because dot, dot, dot. Australians are smarter or special or something about our beaches make us more unique than any other special place in the world. It just makes me nervous when we start investing in this way and we see something as risk-free. And I think people, when press, they go, oh, you know, I acknowledge a bit of risk, but I don't think that, I think they pay lip service to it.

36:06And I think in their heart of hearts, they really do see this as risk-free. And whenever, whether it's crypto or property or shares, whenever you get to risk-free, you really need to be very careful because there's no such thing. There's no such thing as risk-free. And you always have to at least entertain the idea of something going wrong. And Luke, where something potentially goes wrong under that scenario is that the loan that you are, the offset that you have used, which is just a loan, right? It's just a different way to draw on your collateral. If that collateral falls in value or the loan is used somewhere else and doesn't go well, you're going to be worse off than you would have been otherwise.

36:44So just bear that in mind, right? You've cracked the code if everything you touch us turns to gold. And the thing that you're collateralizing the loan against is rock solid. but there's just none of that. That just doesn't exist anywhere in the world. So it's not like I'm saying you're definitely wrong and it's all going to go to pear shape tomorrow, but it's just, I just know that there's no such thing as risk-free. And so, and I know you're saying this, I'm putting words in your mouth here, but I think all of us can agree that we know fellow Australians who are exactly like this. And there's not like some weird uncle Ted at a Christmas dinner, like, you know, a lot of people tend to sort of think this way.

37:23And it just makes me uncomfortable. And I just, I try to not be the wet blanket and throw cold water on things just for the sake of it. You've never tried that in your life. It's worth having just being cognizant of what can go wrong. I don't want to make it about Bitcoin, but you and I have talked about it a lot, Scott, and I'm the first to acknowledge it's not a sure thing. Of course it's not. And if I ever do start seriously saying that, then I need to be slapped across the face because it's stupid to think anything's like that. I'm just glad you have more than 5 % of your portfolio in Bitcoin, mate.

37:55I mean, at some point, that's just silly. No comment. Let's move on. No, that's not my fault. James, so to my thoughts, mathematically, you're 100 % right, which kind of Ram's already said. So yes, as long as the returns from the money are more than the cost of the money, because taking equity out is not cost-free. You're reborrowing it effectively from the bank. And that's fine. But if you're paying 6 % to the bank, well, then your hurdle rate's at least 6%. If you get 6%, you've washed your face and you've broken even, that's fine. A couple of percent more, you're ahead. A couple of percent less, you're behind.

38:30But could it be done? Yes. We've talked about taking money out specifically to invest. And if your house goes up or up with the rest of the market and then your portfolio goes up more than that, yes, you have leveraged that asset to deliver a better return also. So yes, mathematically, that's true. If the math's maths. If the return is higher than the cost, you're ahead. So yes, 100 % true. Yeah, I don't really know much. So yes, I guess to that point, rising tide lifts only some of the boats. Yeah, I don't really have much more to add than that. You're 100 % right. Mathematically, that's exactly what happens.

39:04There's also the point to be made here. I really get my Luke's - Luke, my apology, Luke. Yeah, Luke, when it comes to the rising tide phenomenon, that's where you unavoidably get to that monetary angle. Like if what we're seeing is asset price inflation - Well, you unavoidably get to the monetary angle. The rest of us don't always - It all comes back to money. is so tightly woven into the fabric of our very society. Like it just, it's like English or, you know, it's hard not to. But when we, that was after the GFC, we had asset price inflation. And then we can look at that in real terms or inflation adjusted terms.

39:41So you definitely, whenever you're in, not whenever, but more often than not, vastly more often than not, historically speaking, when gold's going up, when property is going up, when equity is going up, when everything is going up, like there's something more fundamental at play. And so, yeah, maybe the rising tide lifts all boats, but is it a nominal lifting and an artificial, not real lifting? Or is it a lifting because we're all just so prosperous and productive? And I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not because we're all far more prosperous and productive. I would say the opposite of what it is and that things are going up because banks and central banks and governments can't help themselves and they've painted themselves into a corner and we're just going to see more and more of it.

40:25So maybe under that guise, if that's what you think, then that really is a play of, to be more strictly defining it, you're really going short the dollar. Why wouldn't you, right? I'm going to go short the thing that's debasing and I'm going to go long the thing that's going to protect my purchasing power, which is any kind of hard asset like a property or a part in a business or something like that. In fact, I'm doing it right now. I could pay off pretty much all of my mortgage if I choose not to because I will happily use your dirty fiat currency, which is vastly eroding, to buy very, very high quality assets.

41:03I suspect Luke's talking about, we've talked before about the whole buying and selling in the same market. So if the house goes up 15%, you sell it by another house, it's gone up 15%. I think it's that. I think it's kind of, in that case, if my house price goes up, but I sell it by another price that's gone up, I'm not wealthier. I think what Luke says here, if I had a house worth a million dollars, insert Andrew's comment about a one bedroom, dirty unit somewhere. If I had that house and I borrowed half back off the bank and I invested that at 40%, then my house goes up the same rate as everything else, but the equity goes up fast, so I'm wealthier.

41:34I think that's - Yes, yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah, absolutely true. Motley Fool Money. For more, subscribe to the free newsletter at fool.com.au forward slash listener.

41:47Hey, let's go to one from Jamie. I want to say we. Jamie says, hi, Ram. And I suppose Scott too, but this is mainly directed at Ram. Oh, no. Thank you, Jamie. I appreciate it. I might move on. You might actually appreciate it. It depends on if he's taking me to task or not. Oh, good point. No, it's not, unfortunately. He then continues. I need to have a rant. And I've heard Ram is good at these kinds of things. Good. I like to do it. That's a separate thing. He starts off with productivity. It's a big thing these days. you know doing more for less spending more time on producing business output value for society figuring out how to waste less and better serve fellow human beings with something they might want to buy hopefully more than once rather than just giving the government a photo op just like you ram i run a small business and no i don't have a glass tower with a whole floor dedicated to the extremely valuable societal output of paper pushing to asic i like jamie already i think he you would to be fair Jamie I don't want to burst your bubble too much mate but Ram's got three glass towers full of stuff I'm still at the less valuable stage he says of figuring out how to get people to buy my stuff more than once there's nothing more productive than using a site from the 2000s to do a simple thing of giving some more shares to myself and a family member for helping me out with things I cannot do myself should be simple log on for the online form and no Now, I must use a paper version of the form for this circumstance.

43:12They don't even provide it in the list of forms you can download online. What a waste of time. I wanted to put in some swear words, but you wouldn't read them, so that would be an unproductive waste of time. If the government wants to do something about productivity, perhaps make a simple two-minute paper pushing task a simple two-minute task? I'm not sure if that was covered in this year's Economic Roundtable. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I just needed to rant to someone who would understand. So, now the rant is over I will ask an actual question that may be of relevance to the audience You know that it made Rams Day, Jamie so it hasn't been a complete waste of time What are your thoughts, asks Jamie on Super for Kids Someone told me you can do it for them I'm not sure about the details, so I could be totally wrong Apparently, if you put in 500 bucks a year which can come out of your pre-tax income I was told, the government will either borrow to print sorry, borrow or print the same amount of money or put it in the account Curious as to one, whether your initial reaction is positive or negative.

44:10Two, what you see as the potential benefits and concerns. I thought it was an interesting concept as my wife and I already invest for the kiddo via our family trust. I just wanted to know what to think about when comparing. Good question. Thanks, Jamie. Well, I feel your pain, Jamie. I'll say that. Absolutely. I mean, there's a good number of trigger words out there. Productivity is definitely a trigger word for me. I just, I love the proper understanding of what it means as anyone does who understands what it does. You outlined it perfectly. It's just doing more for less. Like I'm for that because like everyone, I just like as much stuff for as little work as possible because that's just sensible, right?

44:50And yes, and I don't think any politician really understand what it means other than it's something, a word that you should say over and over again. I actually don't know about these products. So I'm not going to be able to give you any insight other than to say just my normal view on super for the very young is that unfortunately, I feel as though it just makes super as you often say, Scott, is such a beautiful system, such a great idea. but it just even in its very short life it's just progressively been bastardized and bastardized and bastard i just i don't call it a fait accompli but i but a government that is so over its skis in terms of its sustainability like its viability like it just doesn't spends more than it ever takes in it's not even close not even close to structurally balanced and it's getting worse and it's just a giant honeypot and they've already dipped into it i feel as though you're as I say, that's a certainty.

45:53But when you're talking about a child who even if they don't change the rules of when you can access it, and they're already changing rules in some parts of the world with certain pension entitlements and the rest of it, because they're all bankrupt. Can I be certain that over the next 60 or 70 years, that the super that we conceive of today, the rule set that we think of, the rules of the game are going to be unchanged? I don't know if I would heavily bet on that. And that's the, that's the danger is on the one hand, is any financial planner will tell you, and they're right, assuming nothing changes, the tax benefits are incredible, right?

46:32Like you'd be mad not to put in super, except that one, a lot of people end, I have an untimely death. Like you don't make it there. It's like, and you, and even if you don't, you know, you just can't get it until you're very old. I'm not very old, but you know, potentially if you're going to not be able to access it until you're 75, which I assume anyone who's being born today is probably looking at something like that. You know, it just, it's an opportunity cost thing. So it's sort of like, you know, Buffett talks about, oh, it's a bit too crass, but you know, saving, saving up cuddles for old age, let's call it, you know, and it's, it's something, it's something that you, there is always in, in, in, in economics and finance is always a trade-off.

47:13Trade-off with super as it stands at the moment is incredible incentives and tax benefits, but you have to wait. Or you can forgo those tax benefits and spend the money now, if you want. Which is the right answer? Well, the right answer is what the right answer is for you. Only you can know that, going into it fully eyes open. So do I sound like a bit of a nutter when I say that, mate? I know that if you could promise me that this was set in stone as a constitutional item, then yes. And there is an option to get some extra free kicks and some incentives, then yes. I'm just less certain of that, honestly.

47:52Yeah, I think that's fair. I've said before, mate, for whatever may or may not change between now and Jamie's kid's retirement, I don't think - It could be the year 2100, right? That's what we're talking about. Yeah, totally, yeah. I don't suspect though, Super is worse than investing outside Super. So whatever they may change, at absolute worst is going to be no worse than investing in your own name. Right? Well, what if they say, so the usual way it goes with extreme fiscal stress is that they'll do what's called financial repression. Well, they'll mandate a certain exposure to government bonds because they need to make sure there's a buyer.

48:27So I'm not saying that this is what happened, but I painted out just in contrast to what you're saying there. Let's say that the government turns around and goes, anyone in super must have 50 % of their money in government bonds and government bonds that are bleed like in real terms are like just worthless that would be a situation where even if none of the rules have changed you'd be better off investing outside of super i totally i guess i'm i guess i'm just making the broader point that like like you see bitcoin is there is there a chance that it goes badly yes is there a chance that they do what you suggested yes yeah um but then they could do that without outside super like i say every every bank account the country's got to have it's at some point at some point you say well okay where do you stop the what ifs what ifs and you either are someone from china what they're allowed to do if they're right exactly exactly unless they're connected yeah and so that's you know i i guess i'm just holding out the you've got to make you if you were to if you're going to discount every possibility all you would do is take your money turn it into gold and go hide in a cave somewhere right because they could do x to me and so if they did x to me that would be bad so i'm gonna do everything i can end up being a sovereign citizen i'm hiding in the bushland somewhere and you know life at some point is worth living so i don't mean that's invalidate your point you're absolutely right it could happen i guess i'm you know if we took everything to its logical conclusion you wouldn't do anything or you do everything it's you know where do you draw that particular pain said in the long run we're all dead right so yeah so you know what like you know um i wouldn't i better do it now because it might come later i might have a chance to do it later so if i don't do it now i would never get a chance to do it so Now I'm going to do X, Y, Z.

50:02So yeah, you're right though. So let me be clearer. I think it's remarkably unlikely super ends up being a worst case outcome than not investing in super, investing in your own name. Unless you don't make it to retirement. Either way, if you put the money aside, you still die with money somewhere if it's super or somewhere else. Not if you've enjoyed it. Well, that's the question. I know, I know. That's the question when you die. I'm being facetious. No, because that's a good point because that's what I was going to get to. So in terms of investment, In terms of after-tax returns, I find it remarkably unlikely super is worse than money invested outside super over any similar period of time.

50:38But your point about dying early is the point I was going to make, which is, if I'm investing for kids now, do I want to trade away the tax benefit for the optionality of being more flexible with that money? And personally, I wouldn't put money for a three-year-old in super today for that reason. not because i i think the chances are super is as good or better as as investing outside super by that by 2900 um i mean who knows what else going on at that point but yeah i mean i i think it's you i wouldn't bet against it so you're making better either way that's the other thing if we talk about you know is there a chance there's financial oppression 50 bonds yes is there a chance there's not yes okay if probability says well there's more chance not than there is then okay well then you need to weight your bed accordingly right um but i wouldn't do that personally because they just think at some age do they want it for uni do they want it for a car do they want it for a house do they want it to pay off the mortgage at 48 do they want to uh they get sick at 50 to your point mate maybe they don't make it that far and i don't mean to say that at your kid jamie apologies to you know make that kind of put that black cloud over over the conversation but do i you know it's my priority to make sure they've got a a little bit of a tax advantage uh super fund by the time they retire probably not um i think there's probably a lot of other financial questions, challenges, opportunities, choices they might make between now and then.

51:59So personally, I wouldn't do it. I haven't done it for my kid. I've invested some money outside too, but for my kid. I don't believe, now this strays into tax advice or tax thoughts quickly. I want to be very careful about this because I don't know the answer to this. I don't believe the government matches a non-spousal deposit. I think the 500 buck co-contribution is only for a non-working or a low-income spouse. So I don't know. Don't not do it or do it for that basis, but I don't know of any situation and tax accounts will write to me and tell me. I don't know of any circumstances in which a contribution made for kids is matched by the government inside super.

52:36Now, that would be pretty attractive, right? Because that's double the money you're investing and that's even enough 50 % of bonds. Even if the half was put in a bond, you're probably still ahead. So, you know, at some point, the returns are just too good to ignore no matter what. So yeah, potential benefits, tax benefits, probably, almost certainly, but not absolutely certainly, as Ram said, stays away from them being able to spend it earlier. So if they want to go and blow it on an expensive car at 17, you'd probably help them not do that. Or a spouse at 22, you'd probably help them not do that as well.

53:02That might help. So they're the benefits, concerns, access, possible financial repression slash change of legislation, tax rules, whatever. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, it's not even theoretical is the point I want to make because I'm very hyper aware of how this stuff sounds. But it's really, it's more common than you would imagine, right? Like in, I just was doing a bit of Googling when you were just speaking there, right? So in France, first world country, one of the, you know, former superpowers of the world, repeatedly increased contribution years, retirement ages, generosity of defined benefit formulas.

53:43They increased, repeatedly have lifted the statutory retirement age. Greece is the classic example. I don't even need to talk about that. But it's already happened here in Australia and where we've tightened the asset test. We've raised pension age. We've increased deeming rates at various points. Superannuation tax concessions have been changed. This is all so far. And none of them have moved in a more favourable direction. Oh, no, no, no. I've got to call you. I've got to put it on. Oh, yeah? Okay. Which one? Super is stupidly better off. Pension stuff, absolutely not. Everything from a reasonable benefits limit was dropped.

54:13You can add multiple amounts of pre-tax cash based on rollovers at certain ages. Transition to retirement pensions. that I take your broader point. Super has absolutely been gained by successive governments to basically make it a vote-buying boondoggle. And that's why Super... Paul Keating's superannuation and the current Super scheme bear very, very little resemblance. And most of that, honestly, mate, I don't just get anything you're saying about what the future might bring. Governments have absolutely fallen over themselves to make Super more generous. The first time they've really done anything meaningful to stop it was putting the allocated pension cap, the$2 million cap in, and then the 30 % tax that Chalmers has just introduced for almost its entire life.

54:52I'm going to speculate wildly and say 95 % plus of the changes to super have actually made it more generous rather than less so. Sorry, you're right. But not better from a societal standpoint. No, it's all about the superannuation account holder. Yes. 100%. And particularly when it comes to pensions. I mean, don't forget, at the end of the day, I made this point on Friday. It seems like this economic sort of jargony sort of talk. At the end of the day, real people have made real choices and had the rug pulled out in front of them. You know, people have worked 40 years under an expectation that when I retire, this will happen.

55:26And they go, no, sorry. Computer says, no. No, but you said. And I voted. And I'm like, yeah, sorry, we're bankrupt. We can't do it. Sorry. And like, what? And that's not like, oh, you can find a few bespoke examples. Like, no, that is the norm. Like, that is, you have to look to find the exception to the rule. And I, look, I agree with you, mate. All else being equal is probably more favorable. But there is a situation in this context where I think that you can be a little bit of foot in each camp where it doesn't have to be a binary decision. And it's the one area I do push back on the financial planners because they will look at it very logically and go, well, look at how it's set up.

56:07This is better for you. And I don't disagree with it, but it does assume that over a period of decades, nothing changes in an adverse kind of way. And if it does change in an adverse way, maybe the calculus doesn't look as good. Like if you knew, you know, what you would know in the year 2074, what you know, if you knew now what you will know then, then maybe you will act very differently. And so just don't, I'm always a little bit nervous when a good part of the thesis rests on no one in politics playing funny buggers. Yeah, I think, and you're a million percent right. I think that's absolutely one of the outcomes.

56:46I think you've also got to weight the probabilities of those in the same conversation. So could it happen between now and then? Yes. And you're right to say, Scott, don't be so sure things are going to get worse, that you're a million percent right. The odds that they don't, it doesn't change, it doesn't change as much. And that's your broadest point, right, which is locking something up for 75 years and hoping that nothing changes is its own level of risk. It's not, I don't think it's too much risk, but it's not no risk. And that's, wherever you set that particular dial to Rams point, I think it's probably where it comes out.

57:12I'm just not making excessive voluntary contributions, you know, on top of what is already there, just partly because I would like to not have to wait another 17 years to get it. But also because of that. But there's still super there. So you can just, I think it's just a matter of just being realistic, I think, and balanced in it. And you're right, you're right to make it less extreme. I don't mean to come across that way, but we shouldn't also be purely Pollyanna-ish about it. You know, long, long, long term sort of consequence. I mean, man, it's 75 years, right? It's a long time. If you and I were having this conversation now under a structurally balanced budget with very minimal federal debt, it's like, I wouldn't even be mentioning it.

57:56But it's kind of like, wow, things are really moving in a crazy direction and are only getting worse. It sort of feels like we're on a, you know, we're on a certain path, it just feels like. Now, can we finish with a missy from Trev Buffett? Yes. so Trev writes and he wrote to our wonderful member services self described buff head or are you self described I'm not just taking the long hand away for the fun of it hey listen look what he said he's written dear fool helpers here's some feedback for Ram obviously it's written in jest well at least I find it a little funny and I don't expect it to be read out because it's too long and probably not that funny to others I just wanted to give Scott and Ram some light hearted ribbing I'm a member of the Motley Fool both Australian and US services I'm a huge fan of the service and the pod machine.

58:41One of my biggest regrets is not finding the fool earlier. So here goes. Kind regards, Trev Boothhead. Dear Rambunctious and the Captain, G'day, I'm Trev the Boothhead, the financially poor brother of Camembert Thistlethwaite, we heard from him a few months ago, who Anderson wrote to you a while back about the changes to superannuation taxes, especially for the super rich. I'm his older brother from another father. Let's say mum was lively in her younger years and ran off soon after I arrived. leaving me with Struggle Street, Dad. Mum joined the circus, or so they say, and that's where she met Camembert's multi-millionaire dad.

59:17And the rest, for them at least, is history. While I didn't inherit Camembert's money, I did inherit some smarts. And those smarts keep ringing very loudly when you, rambunctious, full with one or two hundred thousand reasons to start banging on about your magic internet beans, aka The Coin, capital T, capital C. I don't actually disagree with many of your points about The Coin, but Jesus, buddy, You haven't just drunk the Kool-Aid, you bought the company. You are so deep in the coin weeds that all you see is the coin and all the problems with the non-coins. Bear with me. Remember Steve-O? Poor Steve-O.

59:53He was so keen. Do you see what I did there? You're welcome. Just got keen with a capital K for those following along with her. On his own predictions that he couldn't see past his own bias and blindsides, no one can see their blindsides. That's why they're called, well, never mind. You know what I mean, says Trevor Buffett. In theory, so right about Australian house prices and markets was Kino, and so wrong about human behaviour and politicians' hunger for power and practice. As I like to say to me long-suffering missus, yes, she does think I'm an idiot, Steve-O was technically correct, but practically wrong.

1:00:26You know the one about the difference between theory and practice. Anywho, back when you were simply a sage, Simeon, you too held Steve-O's view. You, being sharper than the average pencil, could come up with a thousand reasons why Steve-O was correct. except yeah but nah the smarter folks are the better sounding justifications they can make for their views quick grab a mirror you may just catch your blind side harsh there are none so easy to deceive as ourselves rambunctious and even when we know this our meatware slash brain still fully can't compensate it's called survival we have to trust ourselves eventually or we never get out of bed as status seeking apes we have a lot of biases and one of them is when we read deeply about things or hear about things over and over again we're more likely to agree or be convinced by what we hear advertising works why don't you hear from millions of people against the coin because they don't have hundreds of thousands or millions of reasons i.e dollars or coins or zats or whatever the coin is to bang on about with all the flaws in the coin system you've said so yourself when you speak with the spruikers for having the x or y or z nine times out of ten you come away thinking the company as tops.

1:01:34You also love Mr. Caleb. Who's Mr. Caleb? I can't make that connection. Caleb. What you see or can't comprehend is the silence of the graveyard or as I like to think of it, the silent majority who don't give a bit. See what I did there? All those people not buying the coin, not here for the revolution, no diamond hands, no zats or whatever are speaking loudly. I'm happy you finally bought a house and also have some shares. The thing about us apes is it's easy to fool us than convince us we have been fooled. The coin once envisaged as the world's most egalitarian coin to replace money has morphed into some sort of digital gold that anyone can buy into, but that is ultimately unequal, as those who bought or mind it first make most of the returns.

1:02:17By the way, mate, as much as he's bagging you, I'm clearly on this train now too, so it's pointing fingers directly at me. Now, what other scheme depends on more money coming in to ensure it keeps running? It rhymes with Conzi. In the tech world, they describe tech products that grow and change over time as experiencing scope creep. The coin has experienced so much creep and may so again, who knows? It may yet become AI coin. Just kidding. But here's the thing that, it's a long article, it's a bit of fun. But he says, so inequality at the heart of the coin. Fun for you, maybe. Fun for me. The inequality at the heart of the coin cannot be ignored.

1:02:51And for someone like you who espouses fairness and well done to you, you seem to ignore this fact because I assume you have several hundred thousand reasons to do so. That's a little unfair. Also, to say it will never be developed again is a little like saying there will never be another rambunctious. True, but special, but not unique. Your mum and dad cannot go back in time and create another you. Of course, the source code can be copied and other coins can be built to the exact copy of the coin, even down to no one being able to monkey the code. But I accept we can't jump back in the Mandalorian and create the same coin under the same conditions because we can't go back in time.

1:03:26On a brighter note, and we do the idea of fixing this. Is there a question coming here? on a brighter note I'm with you with the idea of fix the money well this is kind of the question at least the comment I think I'm with you on the idea of fix the money fix the world no I've not read the book and this is where we circle nicely back to Keen Steve-O what makes you think those who can fix the world want to fix the world that's so hilarious status seeking apes Mr Page ignore that at your peril boofhead Trev okay I mean so there's a lot to unpack there So the first thing to acknowledge, Trev, is you're 100 % right.

1:04:02I am a flawed individual. Yes, I will absolutely admit that. I think we all have to admit that. It's not me. You know, like, I mean, if ever I come across as knowing everything or feeling I've got everything, then absolutely I need to be held into account. And I do lay it on pretty thick at times, and there's definitely a lot of conviction that's there. But yes, I mean, you know, the easiest person to fool is ourselves. As you said, I mean, I actually strongly agree with a lot of the assertions that you made there. But, you know, we do live in an uncertain world in terms of our uncertainty of what happens exists right now, let alone what's going to happen in five or 10 years time.

1:04:44So you've got to, but you know, whether you're buying a block of gold or a plot of land or magic internet beans, I mean, you've got to make a call on the future. So, you know, I really like that saying that a bet is a tax on BS, you know, like anyone's got an opinion, but I really don't care much for it until someone puts some money on the line because that really what separates those that actually believe in what they say versus those that are just offering an opinion. So, you know, we all have to do it. And I've put the chips where I think is most appropriate. And actually, it's a nice – we started this pod talking about alliance.

1:05:24So that didn't work out well. I lost 40 % or something on that, you know. And let me tell you, I reckon the number of times I've lost that much or more on an investment, gosh, I'm going to make this up, but at least 15 % of the time, maybe 20%, like one in five. Like it happens a lot, right? And this isn't to brag, but just to hopefully make a point, but my overall average long-term compound returns have been very good. Very good. And you interviewed David Gardner recently, who's also got a terrible stroke. He's got all these disasters. Talk about Buffett, right? So I'm certainly not trying to compare myself to those people, but I do gently try to push back when people sort of go, aha, you said this and you were wrong.

1:06:08I'm like, yeah, I'm not perfect. I made mistakes. I fully expect to make mistakes. I've said to you often, Scott, I'm looking at my portfolio today. I am guaranteeing you there is something in there that's going to blow up. Me too. Raising my hand. Yep. It's going to happen. Do I seriously think I'm that good that everything I touch is going to turn to gold? And moreover, it's going to turn to gold recently, instantly? Like, no, like, absolutely not. So, yep, I've made mistakes in the past. Yep, I'll continue to make mistakes in the future. Yes, I think you do need to be as honest as you can with yourself to recognize when you are letting the thesis creep and you're making decisions based on hubris or emotion and not the facts as they stand, not as you would have them.

1:06:52I think all of that is 100 % true. But even acknowledging that, you're still going to wrong foot yourself, right? Like we're going to trick ourselves with everything. So, I mean, there's nothing to do. I'm actually agreeing with you all. but find me someone who is perfect. Find me someone who you can say all of, you can't say that about. Like I just don't, so I lean into it. The one thing I will very much push back on because I do come across it a lot is this idea that Bitcoin's unfair. It's like, well, if you think it's unfair compared to what? Do you think the Australian dollar is fair? Do you think Gina Reinhart has more access to capital than you under more favorable conditions than you or not, right?

1:07:37Do you think that the person who bought Apple stock in 2001, we should take some of their profit away from them because they were earlier than you who happened to buy last year? Like you get into very prickly kind of questions here. And to have someone, to have a thing that is by design and demonstrate demonstrably true that no one can stop you using, no one can change the rules on you. Anyone can use at any time and no one can screw with it. And then to turn around and say, oh, yeah, but that's unfair. I've never been able to square that circle, particularly when we're living in a system which is patently unfair.

1:08:17That's where I would agree, but just recast, which is, yes, it's unfair. Yeah. But then so is the rest of the world. Everything's unfair. It's a valid criticism of Bitcoin as an entity, just as it is of current wealth distribution or current strand dollars or property as an entity or as an asset class. It's not – because others are also unfair doesn't make Bitcoin any less unfair. But just because Bitcoin is unfair doesn't mean it's not therefore – How is it unfair though? It's just a distribution. It's an unfair distribution of value. Why is it unfair? You could have bought it in 2009. The word fair is a loaded word.

1:08:53It allows for some to have more than others. How? Because people have more ability to access it than others. Were they buying it when you weren't able to buy? Was there a pre-mine? Were they giving it to you with an opportunity with you out? Or did you just choose not to do it? It's a very different thing. It's a very, very different thing. I think it's the same as dollars. I didn't buy Amazon shares when I could have. I agree. But what I'm saying is - But that's my fault, right? Yeah, but it doesn't make any more or less fair. The distribution of Amazon shares is also not fairly distributed. No, no, no.

1:09:24I do push back on that. I do think that the - It's easy in hindsight. there's plenty of people who bought shares in pebble.com. I happen to be looking at a pebble on my desk, right? And that's how unimaginative I am. And, you know, it's worth zero. And they put their life saving in and didn't go anywhere. I was like, well, is that unfair? I mean, they put all their money in this thing. That's a loaded word, though. I will assume that, Trevor, is talking about fairly distributed. So at some point when Bitcoin, even when Bitcoin becomes the global currency, There'll be people with it and people without it.

1:10:01It will be unfairly distributed. And I say unevenly might be a better word. That's why I mean fair is loaded because fair means a lot of things to a lot of different people. Yeah. Unequal is probably a better word, I think, than fair because fair doesn't – is it fair go? Is it a fair outcome? It's the old equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome. Well, life is unequal. Intelligence is unequal. Strength is unequal, you know. But I think that's true. I think – I don't think that's – I think we can acknowledge it's true without therefore making it a – a... Yeah. It's a feature which, you know, if you start from a position of is the distribution of Bitcoin any fairer than the distribution of dollars?

1:10:39No. They are both unfairly distributed or unequally distributed, unevenly distributed. It's the way I would do it. It doesn't mean that Bitcoin's bad anymore than it means dollars are bad. It just is what it is. I don't think it's a valid criticism of Bitcoin relative to other asset, but it's a valid comment on Bitcoin. The same as it's a valid comment on property or dollars or gold or whatever example you used before. The reason I use pebble.com is because it's only with the benefit of hindsight that we go it's unfair. I mean, the person who bought it in 2012 was buying into something that really could have fallen out.

1:11:09Like there just wasn't the hash rate, the distribution. There was certain, there wasn't no regulatory clarity. It was actively outright attacked and banned in various places. Like, so they took insane levels of risk, right? insane levels of risk. And they ended up being rewarded from it. And then it's easy to go, oh, that's unfair. It's like, particularly at a time was like, well, you could have, but you didn't. And I wouldn't have, I didn't either, right? Like it's sort of, so fair is not the right word. And I would say this as well, and this is someone who's obviously a strong advocate for it.

1:11:43Bitcoin don't do anything. Like there's nothing there. I can't, it's a tool, right? So let's say that it goes to$10 million a coin. It's going to become a point where it's just meaningless to even talk about it in dollars, right? In the same way, it's meaningless for me to talk about the value of my Hyundai and bananas. Like, well, I can, but why would I? It just seems like a strange kind of comparison to sort of make. But there's no value in the holding other than it just allows me to exchange something of genuine value for someone else. And the whole system only works as an article of faith.

1:12:21So let's say that it's gone to$10 million a coin. Let's just say it's the world reserve currency. Every single person is using it. And there's some person who's just woken up from a 20 year coma and goes, oh, I've only got these Australian dollar things. And they go, well, turns out, sorry, you were asleep for 20 years. Turns out everyone's using Bitcoin now. Oh, that's unfair. It's like, no, it's not. You can use it right now. Oh, but I don't get the lift up in purchasing power. No, but you do get to use a monetary asset that will not dilute you or rug pull you or unfairly advantage you or disadvantage you in any way, shape or form.

1:12:56It still has incredible. In fact, at that point, it has more utility than it has now. It has incredible utility. Did you get the adoption curve uplift that one point in time phenomenon? No, you didn't. As does the person who didn't buy Amazon in 2001. Should I not buy Amazon shares today because of that? No, it's still, I mean, you hold shares in Amazon, Scott. So you clearly think, I don't even need to ask you, by definition, you clearly think it's worth holding today. Whether or not you could have or should have bought it earlier doesn't change that fact that there is still utility in owning that asset.

1:13:32And that's the thing with money is that it's not about, and this is where everyone gets tripped up because they only see it through the lens of dollars because dollars is the language that we all speak. We all speak dollars because we all grew up with. We don't know any, I don't speak French. I don't speak Inuit. You know, I don't speak any other language, but, you know, and for most of us, we don't speak anything other than Australian dollar because that's what we do. So everything gets framed in that thing. But it's just like, if I want to port across to some other different network and that network is still going to allow me to save my labor and my effort or exchange that for something else of value.

1:14:12That will always be of value, whether I did it early or whether I did it late. Yeah, there's a point in time where the purchasing power went up pretty exponentially as the onboarding adoption process played out. Great. The best time to buy Amazon was like when Bezos first dreamed it up and offered shares for sale. But the second best time is today because it's an incredibly valuable network, logistics and computer network that is built there, right? And it's just like, well, I'm not going to use this incredible tool because I should have bought it earlier. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

1:14:47No, I think you're taking it too far, mate. I'm not saying they're not going to use it for that purpose. They're just making the point. Drew's making the point. That's not fairly – it's not evenly distributed. If you made Amazon shares the currency tomorrow – I guess we're moving to Amazon shares. Well, hang on. Scott's got a lot. Andrew's got none. And you're making that switch. That doesn't seem like a fair way to recast the distribution of wealth across a company. Okay, okay, okay. Okay, well, let's go with, okay. There's a nuance there, which I think I still disagree, but let's just go with that for a second.

1:15:15Again, if that's the argument that Trev's coming up with here, he's against shares, he's against property, he's against fiat currency, he's against gold, he's against everything. No, it's against making those currency. That's the, and I'm not, I actually, I think he's right. I don't think, but I don't think it's a specific criticism of Bitcoin. If you're to say tomorrow, let's say you wake up tomorrow, Everyone says, turns out, something in pebbles, turns out wealth is going to be mentioned in pebbles now. Whatever pebbles you've got, it determines your ability, your purchasing power in the world.

1:15:46That would seem unreasonable to you unless you have a, well, you've got a desk full of pebbles, so you'd probably be happy about it. I'd be happy about it because I don't have any pebbles in front of me right now. It would change the, it would change, it would recast the distribution of wealth in a way that would not seem fair. And whether it's Bitcoin or not, any change to a new currency that had a distribution different to a current circumstance would feel unfair. I don't think that's – I don't think you've seen it as a criticism of Bitcoin. I think it's a criticism of any change to any asset once you had one – now, again, I would say the same of inherited – it's not fair that you're born to parents with a silver spoon or without a silver spoon in that context.

1:16:28That's not fair either. So I don't – that's why I don't – I think it's a fair – It's everyone's property and chop it up evenly and give it to everyone. No, because you're taking that to a... He's not saying it's not fair, therefore X should happen. He's saying it's not fundamentally fair. I think we can make a decision or task a judgment on the observation without needing to be... There's no therefore there necessarily. It's just, would it be fair that if the world's denominated currency was to change, it would be distributed unevenly? Would that be fair? And I don't think it would be fair. I'm not saying it should change.

1:16:56I'm not saying it shouldn't happen. I'm not saying... Fair's not the right. I think we're talking past each other because fair's not the right word. If that... Because nothing's fair. If that's the definition you use... I agree with you. I mean, that's why I'm agreeing with you. Well, then it's a spurious argument then. It's like nothing is fair in life. So Bitcoin equal bad is like... No, he doesn't say that. But that's why I'm... You're taking the therefore. I think you've got to stop before the therefore and engage with the conversation that's all the arguments being made. Well, I think Trev very much framed it in a negative.

1:17:23Yeah, that's fair. But I would just take the argument between you two, which is, yes, it's unfair. that doesn't mean it's not a good possible long-term solution as our money i that i would i would just say you can have both those views at the same time is it fair no is it better yes okay let's do it i think that that can be okay it doesn't have to be there are no there are no knocks on this therefore we you know we only accept bitcoin if nothing can be criticized about it no let's have to criticize about it it's still better than what we've got okay let's go with it i think that i think that needs to be okay as a you know we accept the warts and we go warts and all is it better yes okay let's do it then rather than it must be absolutely mutably i think this There's probably even an issue in the framing there as well.

1:18:00I think this is another thing that people, because we've lived in this world where a lot of things just get dictated from on high and you just have to accept it with the threat of violence. Because go to jail if you don't like it, because that's the role, right? And people think, this is what's so fascinating, or one of the many things that's so fascinating about it is there is no dictate. And it always makes me, I'm always so surprised that people are so passionately against the voluntary adoption of something by other people like no one's forcing anyone to do anything don't like it don't do it you like it do it great this thing is completely organically growing bootstrapped up from zero with no overall direction or dictate from anyone just more and more people every day going you did it last week yeah for the first time you'll have to go yep i'm gonna adopt it in part second time actually second time but no one forced you you weren't coerced into doing that no politician stood up and said Scott you must do this and now we're doing it it just happened in the same way that we do everything and so fairness to me I mean again it comes back there's a definitional semantic issue fair is a bad word here and it's sort of like but to me fairness says that somehow you were prevented from doing something that you otherwise would have liked to have done, or other people were given an opportunity that you weren't given an opportunity.

1:19:30Is that unfair? Absolutely. When you've got the potential to do it and you choose not to, then right or wrong, I mean, you can call it a lot of things, but you can't call it unfair. That's just like, it just wasn't for me, right for me at this point in time, I chose to ignore it. I chose to poo-poo it. And That's cool too. You can do that, but it's just not unfair, right? And if the very people whose adoption helped bring about the change, that sound money I think would be a very positive one, were to get benefit by being the early adopters and early advocates. I mean, the early adopters are always the most beneficial in any technology that ultimately succeeds.

1:20:12Like that is always true. And it's like, I don't even begrudge them for that because they took the risk they put in the effort. Like someone had to do it. Would it not be more unfair if the government said, hey, wait a second. Turns out this is a thing. We're going to seize it off everyone and now we're going to give it to ourselves and our mates. Like that strikes me as much more unfair than anything else. And as I'll say, I'll just make that point again. It's never too late. It's never too like, I used it before. The person in Argentina who adopts the US dollar at any point is a good decision.

1:20:50It's never a bad decision, right? Whether, okay, I should have done it 20 years ago. I didn't, but can I do it now? Yeah, it's still a good decision to do that, right? And so you can whinge and complain. It's like, well, if I had a time machine, I'd go back and I'd buy 10 ,000 coins at a cent each. Obviously, I would. I can't do that, but I can buy it now, right? And again, I'm not buying it because it's some speculation. I'm just buying it because I'm adopting it as my preferred unit of account, medium of exchange store of value. That's all I'm doing. And it's a voluntary choice. I choose to do it.

1:21:21And it really angers a lot of people that my personal choice does that. I've got kids that have grown out of it now, but they collected Pokemon cards. It's stupid. And given the size of our audience, I know right then I just offended at least a few dozen people. Four blood skins, baby. And I'm wrong to do it because that's their human subjective judgment is I really value these. They bring me a lot of pleasure. They're rare. I love to collect them. It's like, who am I? Who am I to say that that's right or wrong? And if someone buys a Pikachu that's now worth$50 ,000 and we go, well, that's unfair.

1:21:55I should have been able to buy that. Well, you were and you didn't and you laughed at it. And now only after the fact that it's successful do you jump up and down and cry that it's unfair. Yeah. So look, you said a lot of stuff there, Trev. I really, I don't want to, I don't want to push back because I can't push back on a lot of that kind of stuff. I just wanted to nitpick on that one sort of point there. And look, here's the other thing. If it's not for you, it's not for you. Cool. Mic drop. But by the same token, why does it bother? You know who it bothers the most? I reckon this is, I'm going out of limb here, Trent, but I reckon you like your crypto, right?

1:22:32And I think I've probably said some things that's like angered you on that. The crypto bros do not appreciate your anti-crypto stuff. No, there's room. There's more than room for one. They just, look, my humble opinion, it's just one dude's humble opinion, is you're wrong. The market's also telling you you're wrong and history is telling you that you're wrong. But even the arrogance of that statement, I get it, Trev. I get the arrogance in that statement and there's a lot there. But here's the beautiful thing, right? We all get to freely choose our own choices and let's see where the chips land.

1:23:04I'm not even saying it's in a smug way. We'll see how this goes. You know what I'm saying? Like genuinely, specifically we will, one way or the other, we're going to find out. And I could absolutely have egg on my face and I would be a mad, I would be foolish to think otherwise. But you've got to, as I said, you've got to play the hand that you're given and the interpretation that you have and the expectation. And that's mine and you have yours. And beautiful thing about free and open markets and non-coercive regimes is that we can all make our own decisions. Totally. Agreed. Have fun staying poor.

1:23:42Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Joke, joke, joke, joke, joke. And yet, and yet, and yet. All right. I think we're done here. Will you come back next Friday? I don't know. I feel a little bit of tax, mate. Do you? No, of course I will. Of course I will. Will I own more, less or the same amount of Bitcoin in a week's time, Andrew? I dare say that you'll own the same amount. No, I meant to be because in Australian dollars, I actually meant to be in Bitcoin. Yes. Well, in Australian dollars, who knows, right? It could be 50 % less. In Bitcoin, you will absolutely own the same. in 10 years time you will learn a lot more because there you go you've had a taste no one has a little taste of heroin and then go no you're on your way and I know you know zero to one is the hardest and you've done that and so it's just a matter of time not one bitcoin for the record I didn't put that on no no no but zero conceptual yes that's that you know get off zero is the lesson here there you go Trev get off zero until next week full on sell your crypto bye bye The Motley Fool and people appearing in this program may have positions in the companies mentioned.

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