Mailbag: incl. Keeping directors honest. January 28, 2024

33:08But it is about population now in particular. And we can also change some policies to just take a bit of steam out of the market. I think it was just an eminently sensible approach. A saying that I really love is the best cure for high prices is high prices. Yeah. Because it gets at a very core truth of economics and supply and demand is that when prices go up, it incentivizes the creation of more supply, which corrects things. I mean, exhibit A, the price of lithium over the last 12 months. Rocket highs, just stratospheric prices. What did that do? Encourage a whole bunch of people to come in and produce more, and that corrected itself.

33:51We've just stopped that apparatus from working properly. So that's, you know, we've got to let the free market do what the free market does. and that provides huge opportunities for those, you know, for some, but it also comes with risk and it is important, as heartless as that can sound. With an important caveat for mine that the free market is the free market or the market is the market, but we also need to recognise, as you know, as you've said before, the shelter is not a financial product. And so we should absolutely have protections and caveats and bumpers around people's impact of, you know, being impacted by the free market when it does its thing because it can have very, very sharp elbows and we just you know i think socially we have a responsibility to fix that yeah hey um one from andy hi again gentlemen this is my third time writing in so firstly thank you for answering my previous questions i gained a lot from your inputs i knew there was one andrew i knew there was one person we were helping out there oh dear this was a little personal however i'm looking to progress into a new phase of my working life after completing my apprenticeship in cabinet making and since i started investing in august 2021 i've been head over heels in love with all things finance and this podcast has made a huge impact on my understanding of the topic so thank you i find myself looking at the markets every day i know this could be a terrible habit bad for my emotional health as seeing my portfolio in the red for months on end really sucks but he says lately i find myself less involved with my portfolio on a daily basis and more just focused on market movers e.g company trading updates mergers and acquisitions and the like i tend to only look at my holdings when they report updates or results are released.

35:30That's probably at least the right way to do it. So my question for you both is, what jobs can I get into in the financial industry, but also sleep soundly at night? I want to help others with their finances, but I don't want to work for a company that charges absurd fees and takes away meaningful chunks of returns from unsuspecting clients. What kind of jobs do you suggest? Maybe I should start some sort of cult like Andrew Rampage did. Just for the life of me, can't remember what that straw man thing is. There we go. And he says, insert Andrew sigh, which you've already done for me, so thank you.

36:03Anyways, lol, he says, what courses do you both suggest and what are your thoughts on TAFE courses or is getting a uni degree a better option? I mentioned it was after personal advice at the top of the question, but feel free to add a disclaimer such as, this advice is not tailored to your personal life goals and just general in nature. And another LOL. Many thanks in advance and wishing you both a wonderful Christmas This is a pre-Christmas question. And all the best for the new year. Andy, what do you reckon, mate? This is going to probably be a little bit of a surprise, but I'd say don't do it.

36:33Don't do it. Tell me why. It'll take the joy. It'll suck the joy. The joy that you have now as an investor will be sucked out of you when you come work for this lecherous, amoral. I mean, I give real estate agents heaps, right? But, you know, people in glass houses. Pick the bloke who doesn't have to work for a job anymore. He can work for himself. Pick the bloke who's just completely gone, you know what? All bets are off, baby. You know, when you speak to a chef, they don't go home and cook, you know, lobster mornay. They have a toasted cheese sandwich or a bowl of Weet-Bix. Because they're doing it all day.

37:11And if you want to destroy something you love, do it all the time, even when you don't want to. The wonderful thing about being a private investor is that you get to do it your way. The incentives in this industry are very powerful, very powerful. And there's a reason why things are the way they are. Why everyone feels like they must have a view on something and why there is always a tendency to act and to this and rebalance and to rotate and to blah, blah, blah is because it just feels too overly complacent to not do it. And what do you think about this stock? I don't really care. Or thinking, well, you don't have a view on that?

37:53That's outright. Oh, my gosh. I guess I've got to look into that now too. And it killed me when I was in the industry proper. And I was just – it sucked all the joy out of it. And so don't do it. Don't – my personal opinion, I mean, the big part of the incentive for starting my business was I wanted to get away from that stuff. You know, I wanted to, I'm sick of telling people what I think they should do. What do I know? I don't know about any, you know, it's just, and it's like, it's a legal minefield and a regulatory nightmare. And just, but I, but I do want to have conversations with people.

38:30I'm happy to sort of say, oh, I've got an opinion on this. Hey, what do you think? And just, I just wanted to have a little, it's like when you're like 16 and you want, you want your like clubhouse, you know, where your mates can come around. That's all I want. I mean, it's, you know, I know we like to make fun, but it's woefully uninspiring from a financial perspective. It pays, it's got to pay the bills and helps me cover the rent, but it's not, there's not anything you would do like from a financial perspective. And I've made comment before that it's, I'm really cool with that actually, because it means that I get to invest in the way that I love.

39:05If there's something that's been released today, if company X has come out with a big announcement, I don't have to write anything on it if I don't want to. I don't particularly have a view, you know, or I might just like I did over Christmas, largely just turn off.

39:22And I find that it keeps the joy alive. And then the other part of the question is, well, what courses on that? And I would say, and this is not to undermine some of the courses and stuff that are out there, but a lot of it, a very significant part of it is BS. And you can, the amount of free information that is out there, not necessarily in sort of like educational form, whether it be through some of these free online university courses and the rest of it. but even like just if you were to take 500 bucks and go buy a range of books if you if you search recommended reading list motley fool i know you guys have got an excellent list there um and just buy those books and read it i would i'd be pretty confident to say that if you're in sometimes you might need to read them a couple times and they take some notes but you know i think you will learn more from that than you will from you know uh a lot of courses that are that are out there So anyway, that's - No, I like that, mate.

40:23I think it's good. And keep doing - You got into cabinetry because you liked it, you're good at it, whatever. Focus on that. Focus on generating as much income as you can for that because that's the fodder for your investing. And as we've often said, that's really the bigger lever to pull in terms of your ultimate wealth creation is the income generated and invested more so than the return, at a point. I mean, obviously at the extremes, things change, but that's my advice. good advice um you made a point about youtube i still haven't checked it out because i probably it's just not my thing in terms of needing to go back and relearn the fundamentals and the basics but i probably should for our listeners oh there's good stuff there a lot of rubbish at some point a lot of rubbish yeah i would just i would just say do it do something structured uh that covers the basics in some sort of useful coordinated way and just be don't be distracted by the rubbish as you say around um a lot of cranks and and kind of just just something i'll say reputable i don't i I don't mean to exclude disruptors on your entrance in that sense.

41:22I just mean make sure you're not falling into someone who sounds good, might have a view, and all of a sudden you find yourself down the rabbit hole and you've been dragged down some other weird, you know, you start with accounting 101 and you end up, I don't know, a sovereign citizen or something. So just be a little bit careful who you choose to listen to. But yes, I would absolutely, I said the other day, I would absolutely do something structured. I don't mean formal. I mean structured to make sure you are getting taught the basics in some way, shape, or form. accounting 101 and 201 or 102 whatever you want to go with are the i really think the must do is i was thinking about it again over the weekend um and it really was that stuff that opened my eyes to a whole lot of things and and make me kind of able to i think absorb some of the other things that we learn so do something doesn't need to be a structured course as ramses if you find something good enough on youtube or elsewhere corsaira those molt those big online courses are also available uh generally you can do them for free and they're structured i didn't mention that the other day i thought about that over the weekend too i don't know if corsaira still exists it was big for a while just free online courses you can do um that are structured and run by reputable agencies or organizations give that a go if that that's your thing um again i'm not saying you shouldn't do youtube i just i just can't recommend it because i haven't haven't looked but ram has and is a big fan so take that as as a positive i i agree with you mate i it's hard when people sit and listen to us having fun and doing this for a quid uh either employed as i am or a business owner as you are and say hang on how could i not want these guys are living the dream and telling me not to bother um we are we are dramatically the exception um a couple of examples uh i i tweet when i want to i don't when i don't i've never ever ever cleared anything through legal or my manager and nor have i ever been taken a task for it um compare that to some of our peers in other organizations who say oh no i can't talk about that company or i shouldn't do that because that person might be annoyed there is you know a little bit like some journos and some media organizations you don't have to be told by the boss to know that you really shouldn't do some things because it would upset the company um i'm very very fortunate extraordinarily fortunate um i don't know too many others in my position uh it's an organizationally people the motley fool as a group can do i say whatever they want as long as they kind of keep to make it legal and stick with the company ethos not a company view but a company ethos um if you're definitely the exception to the rule yeah and so you kind of think you know what do you what do you want to do and um if you want to help people i think that's great i think there's a lot of ways you can um you're not gonna make a lot of money doing the help the really helpful stuff because because the as in helping a lot of people the money the money's in helping really rich people get really richer and that's cool that's fine fund managers who you know manage to strike it rich and get their mini dollar bonuses is pretty bloody attractive if you like money um i i am really i'm absolutely sure i could earn more money not at the motley field but somewhere else should i want to i don't not because I don't like money, not because I have a trust fund, but because I like my work-life balance and I like the freedom I have to do my job.

44:10I could get paid very decently more elsewhere.

44:18It's love the hobby, as Ram says, I think. If you genuinely want to help people, you can do some financial planning, financial counseling stuff if you really, really want to, but work out what it is you really love. Also too, this is going to sound a little bit condescending make sure you're good at it and i don't mean that in any condescending way but being excited about loving the markets is different from being good at picking stocks or giving people financial advice and that's that's you know important one thing i would say actually the gap i would draw is if you really really want to and be very careful about the law but if you want to write your own personal blog documenting your journey that's one thing you could do to give yourself some some strong strong agree yeah just it gives you some exposure if you want it they put some things on paper we talked about on friday and ram gave a horrible shandless plug to straw i did actually um but uh yeah but but you know if that's if that's if that gets that urge out do it and if people follow you then great jump on social media people follow you great don't give advice you're not allowed to you don't want to you don't want to it is a thankless task you get no credit when you're right you get all the blame when you're wrong don't do it even if you're eventually right you'll get it don't trace trust me you don't want to give advice uh so there's that Yeah, that's how I'd probably address it.

45:30I think, again, I don't discourage you. If you really, really want to, then go and do it if you're going to love it. But if you're going to love it, if you work for it as an analyst in a big fund, you're going to be giving 15 companies to write long reports on each one of them and update them every three months. If that's your thing, go for it, love it. People listening now who are doing that and loving it, that's awesome. If you want to be a stockbroker and talk to clients, that's cool. But again, understand the incentives there. By the way, most what they call sell-side analysts, if you're selling advice, everything's a buy, nothing's a sell because you want to buy lots of stuff.

45:59So there's that. If you work for fun, it's a bit different. So there's chances there. I don't know. I really, really, really don't know, Andy, what I would say other than fun's that you love doing. If you don't like kind of making moments, change your career. Just know that the fun of being self-directed, as Ram said, is not necessarily available to you in 95 % of jobs in our industry. It just isn't. And Ram and I are the exceptions to prove the rule. So the last thing I want to do is say to people, hey, come and do what we're doing. It's a bit like Wall Street, right? We're supposed to be a cautionary tale as a movie.

46:27and it spawned a generation of people who wanted to get rich um we were kind of the reverse right we don't we don't want to you know show it all's beer and skittles and then uh have to try and have to try and deal with it i thought that helps but yeah the cold the cold might be the option i won't speak for you mate but i'll i'll moment of honesty here too i i i suffer burnout from time to time as well you know i don't want to pretend that's actually true yeah but i you know i do love what i do but you know there are there are times where it's just like i would love to just step away for six months you know and and i i i can't and it's like this is the smallest problem in the world but it's just there is there is something some freedom that comes with just being able to invest on your terms where you are beholden to no one else and answerable only to yourself i think that is that is the that is the dream and and you look at most people in the industry and they age horribly.

47:23That's actually so true. The stress is unbelievable. It really is, right? And, you know, the higher you want to climb out the greasy pole, the more compromise you have to make with family and friends. Absolutely. Leisure time and that kind of stuff. Yep. Yep. Motley Fool Money. For more, subscribe to the free newsletter at fool.com.au forward slash listener.

47:44Question from Brent, who sent a good evening. He sent this an evening, obviously. Good evening, Scott and Ram. Brent, you should know. It's 8 o 'clock on Sunday morning. A ram's already been out and done two marathons. It's definitely morning. Oh, no. Come on, Brent. He says, I actually have two questions for Andrew this time around. The first is not a clammy, what is straw man, but an actual inquiry. Oh, dear. Andrew, this is interesting. Andrew, what aspects of the straw man website are you most proud of and would like to highlight to you? Is Brent one of your straw man members? He's got to be right.

48:17I'm kidding to my members. so I'll ask the question as asked. What aspects of the Strawman website are you most proud of and what would you like to highlight to users? I'm not in a financial position to join yet, but if you're looking around the site, I think this is something I'd consider down the track. When I join, I'd like to get the most out of my membership. So I'm keen to see what aspects of the site you love the most. He does say, and I'll let you answer it. FYI, during episodes, I actually want you both to tell me more about the services you provide through both Strawman and Motley Fool.

48:45You're both very modest and downplay any promotions during a program. But personally, I'd like to hear about any relevant products you do provide that relate to your commentary at the time or just products in general you love and want to promote. Thank you. That's very kind, Brent. Thank you. We'll take that. We'll take that on advisement. If we feel like we help, we probably should. But yeah, we try not to overly sell because that's not what this is about. Anyway, Matt, what are you most proud of from the Strawman website, Matt? Strawman Business. Before I answer that, I would say that, I mean, it's probably a personal thing, but I feel as though the best marketing you can do is just to be as genuine as you can because you the the you attract the the people you deserve you know it's i think as again if it was purely an economic exercise there's all kinds of things you could do to maximize returns and the rest of it but i don't know if i could look myself in in in the mirror too much but it's also it it yeah you don't i think if ever you're in a situation where the way that you get customers is to for want of a better term trick them into buying it then you're not yeah right it's not you know i i feel as though people should want to um avail themselves of your product slash services because they're sort of on mission with you and there's aligned there's an alignment there of sorts i think i think that's important so that's you know i'd like to pretend that it's a purely altruistic reasons that i that we we don't have the marketing message but it's frankly it's just i just feel as though the better way to do it is just to just to do it this way right yeah um you know when i first started doing this and you're trying to design a website platform or whatever you want to call it you you start to think it's all about the bells and whistles and how you can do this and you can do that and as as it's gone on it's coming up to gosh seven years or something wow yeah well since it's a very early alpha version right so we were 21 when we started we started that could have well been um and actually these days i actually said it to the members at the start of the year it's just like i'm just not interested in adding anything unless it it plays to our strengths and if we're just going to be adding something to keep up with the joneses because platform x has this tool that you can do this and this one has that just like it's it's a race to the bottom and it's it's i i own it and it's going to sound a bit airy fairy but the the thing i am most proud of is the community itself is the people so if we could have exactly the same quote-unquote assets and resources but if instead of like sort of 500 self-directed uh investors you know we had a bunch of retail investors we had a bunch of you know tire-kicking speculators it'd be an entirely different thing so it sounds like a cop-out but the people it's it's the people and i would i would fire if if if something happened with the website that we lost all of our features but somehow we sort of had some online forum where we could sort of communicate and share i think i think you'd maintain the soul of it and that's the thing that i'm most proud of no one believes me when i say this or my friends don't but honestly i think i think i have probably had to delete two or three posts in the entire history of the platform yeah like you know there's usually there's some idiot jumps on and says something just doesn't happen right so i'm super proud of that and i guess the idea of everyone is exposed to a degree because what we're asking you to do is to create a sample portfolio yeah and what it does is a very strong signaling mechanism it's sort of you know whenever investors get together end of the day it's like what do you like what don't you like what are you holding how much are you holding it how is it all structured that you know that that tell me what you're doing that's more important really than what what you think and and i like that part of it i think that's what we do uniquely in in the the sample portfolios aren't just a bit of a gamification or any like tech buzzword you want to add in there to sort of add it as it highlighted as a feature but more just that ability that i can very quickly see across the membership when i look i see a member talking i make a pose i can look at their portfolio what are they holding what are they how much are they holding it you know you you learn instantly so much about a person how diversified they are how concentrated they are whether they like this particular sector or that one i pay we measure all kinds of time frames but i don't think me or any of the members take the short term time frames too seriously they're there because they're a bit of fun but you know if you you're the top of the leaderboard on the three months um scorecard is like yeah good luck to you you probably won't be there in another three months but but it is it is a very powerful signal i think for those that have been there for many many many years whereas like anyone can do well in a short timeframe with luck.

53:27But if you've outperformed the market pretty consistently over a five-year period, you're someone I'm pretty interested to hear from. So I like that aspect of it. I love that, mate. I think that's actually the biggest credit to you is the way you've cultivated your membership. You give credit to the members and you probably should, at least so they like you more. I'm not just being nice. No, I know. It's true. But I'm also giving you your rap as much as the members, which is to say you've had a very specific aim in building the business. You're never one of those people. You could have gone a very, very different way and had an internet forum akin to others that may exist out there, which I won't mention.

54:05And, you know, it's a very, very different experience. And maybe you would have made more money, maybe you would have made less money. But either way, you've made a very deliberate decision. And I think you've been rewarded for that. I don't say this to – well, we did have some venture capital funding at one point, and there was a lot of pressure to sort of grow this thing. And you realize pretty quickly that to get to very large scale, you need to start. I talked before in regard to Brent, right? Like the incentives at play in this industry is like, I reckon we could have tens of thousands of members and be making a huge amount of money.

54:41But we would be promising things that I didn't genuinely believe in. And I think we'd probably end up damaging a lot of people. Most people don't get it. That's cool. we've only got five we less be less than 500 members and that's fine we might not ever get bigger than that that's cool like quality over quantity i think is is is the key thing yep i like it uh now andrew can i keep you on a short leash for this next question well you got to tell me about that you gotta you know i've had to give the pitch what about you um oh the motley foot well i think people know i so here well i we've got a motley foot was an interesting business uh it's an interesting name it's an interesting name we uh we yes uh is it straw man yeah i know glass houses right we're both the same glass house together holding the stones under something just in case um so here motley ford comes from shakespeare i won't bore people with that but yes that's where it comes from um it's a really it's a really good story but yes go we straw man and motley ford really fascinating ways to deal with the same fundamental investing belief in very very different ways um we have there's a couple of frenemies in our industry uh and i say that with the tongue in cheek in the sense that straw man probably takes members from the motley field probably takes members from straw man a lot of people have both um because it works for them and that's probably a pretty sweet spot for everybody either way uh as per the answer to andy's question earlier there's so many bad guys in the industry you know if there's more than enough room for the good guys to all win without trying to fight each other right Looking outside rather than inside is smart.

56:15And so that's worthwhile and that's important to say. I don't know. So look, the Motley Fool provides individual recommendations or model portfolios for our members. Our idea is to help people understand a little bit better about the companies they're buying. Andrew's business is very much a membership sharing. Ours is hopefully some experts with some idea trying to help you be better investors. And both are great. Both work nicely. Andrew's, Strawman's much more new world Wikipedia style, you know, combinations of people who know a bit and are kind of joining together and doing it. Ours is probably a bit more old school, top down, you know.

56:52We get some people we think are pretty good at doing what we're doing and so we try and do it and help people in doing it. The similarities, though, are very clear, right? We want people to help, we want people to take control of their own financial futures in whatever way works best for them. We have everything from ETF Investor, which is don't pick stocks, buy ETFs, here's some we recommend. We're just kind of picking stocks at one level, but not very much, right through to very, very, very different types of service, people who desperately love. We've got one thing called Gold Pass, which is three of our services wrapped together.

57:21We get, it's like 50 stock recommendations a year. And it's from three different services. Like, here's what three of our teams think. Have a look and see what you think. And people who want to absolutely say, I want to pick stocks. I want lots of information. Give me some curated things to think about. That's that. And there's so much in between. I said model portfolios and stuff. So that's what we do. I've said many times, mate, as far as I'm concerned, I think as far as the team's concerned, 90 % of our members come for the soccer recommendations, but I hope at least half of the value we give them is education and support and a bit of hand-holding and walking beside when things get tough and you want to have someone you hopefully know and trust to say, hey, I know things suck right now, but we've been here.

58:02We know what's going on. Stick with it. I think that's a great, great, I'm going to go West Wing, mate. Great West Wing story uh if you're a west wing fanatic you'll you'll know the uh leo mcgarry josh wyman uh josh lyman sorry scene uh where leo who's the the old cranky ex-alcoholic who's been through his things and and josh the young bloke's having troubles and he tells a story of a friend who who stuck down a guy stuck down a hole and the friend a couple friends walk past and the third person walked past jumps into the hole and the man could get out of the hole sorry so the friend jumps in he says what are you doing yeah now we're both in the hole and the guy says yeah but i've been here before i know how to get out that's kind of you know it's kind of it's a really nice story look up the scene other look up the warren buffett solomon stuff then look up um leo mcgarry man in a hole i'm sure i'll find it'll find it um the idea basically is you know investing is is one part knowing what to do it's one part maybe more than one part be able to do it in the range of circumstances and that's where hopefully helps to have some people help you So that's what I try and do for our members of our team tries to do.

59:07So there you go. All right, let's move on. Can I keep you on that short leash though, Mike? Can I get that commitment around? We'll try. This is a Bitcoin question. And we don't have all day. No, okay. So we did a bigger bid on Bitcoin. Was it last week? It might have been last week we did. We did, the ETF launch and stuff. Yes, yes. So this is actually related to that, mate. And Brent's asking, he's considering buying into Bitcoin. He said, based on the fact there's no old credit. Considering BlackRock and many others are taking Bitcoin much more seriously now, I think it's time to buy in. But I don't know where to start, says Brent.

59:43So this is a mechanics question, mate. I recall you briefly mentioning on air how to buy Bitcoin on a recent podcast episode, but I can't find it when I go back through the episodes. Andrew Mayer, please trouble you to advise how to buy Bitcoin and hold it securely. What risks are involved in buying and holding Bitcoin or crypto in general? And lastly, how do we sell it when we decide the time is right? So can you kind of give a rundown, mate, of different ways people can get exposed to Bitcoin, maybe the benefits and risks in each? Yeah. Oh, gosh, it's so hard. I know. Sorry. You know, the thing is everyone understandably wants a nice pithy answer, but it's hard to do because it's such a weird new thing.

1:00:25Try explaining the internet to someone from 1923. You know, it's hard. So I'll do my best. You can either earn it or you can buy it, right? And let's be realistic. At this point, buying it's the more practical solution. Yeah. So you want to go to an exchange. I would very strongly encourage you to go to an Australian-based one rather than something that is offshore. Can I stop you quickly, mate? Just because I started this right at the beginning. Yeah. Obviously, you can buy it directly from an exchange, but you can use an ETF. Yeah. Would you mind to some extent just kind of outlining both those before you then get into how to buy if you're going to buy directly?

1:01:04I mean, one of the things that's hard to wrap your head around because it doesn't really exist in the modern world is that there used to be a thing called bearer assets. That is, do you ever watch those heist movies, you know, where they have all these bearer bonds? They're bits of paper, they're certificates and they're called bearer bonds because if you rock up to the issuing institution and say, here you go, they will redeem that for you in cash. They don't need to see what's your license, what's your holding registration number. It's like, if it is in your hand, it is yours. So the classic example is gold or silver or something like that.

1:01:37If I own, if I, if I, if I'm, if it's mine, it's mine. Right. And what's really weird in the digital realm is to have a bearer instrument. In other words, I don't need a middleman. I don't need a custodian. That's kind of a big part of the point. And that's part of the breakthrough of what it is, is, is, and the saying is not your keys, not your coins. So if I own, if I have set up an address, so I only need 12 magic words, if I can recite that incarnation, I own an address, and I can control what happens to any Bitcoin that sort of sits in there. I don't need permission. I don't need a password.

1:02:14I don't need – you know, it's mine, right? And as long as I can recite those words, I can do anything I want with them. So that's the kind of cool thing, right? And I would encourage you, at least if you're new to it, at least with a small amount until you get comfortable with it, is to set up a wallet. This is a whole – well, let me just say at the start, anything I'm saying, you'll find – a bit of Googling. You'll find some really good resources out there, and some of this stuff can be a little bit deep. But if you go to some of the – you know, some really good institutions like the people at Swan Bitcoin over in the U.S.

1:02:47or River, really good. Here in Australia, I'm a big fan of Bitteroo, who I use. There's good educational content. So they'll show you the specifics of doing all this stuff. And there's software wallets and there's hardware wallets or sometimes called cold wallets and hot wallets. And it gets all very unfamiliar very quickly. So I'll keep it short and just basically say, set one up, go to an exchange, just like you would with when you, how do you buy shares? You've got to go through a broker. Same kind of thing. It's just that this will be a different broker. I give it five years before Comsec and others are offering it direct on their platform because that's what disruption looks like.

1:03:22And, you know, eventually they will come. They may not. to. Don't, never get between a, you know, as I said before, never get between a banker and a profit, right? Like they'll do it because you can't, you can't, you can't beat it. So join them. But yeah, in the meantime, look, I'll give up, there's other great exchanges in Australia, but focus only on the Bitcoin only ones. Don't go to the crypto casinos that will offer you doggy coin and all kinds of other scammy nonsense. It is a scam and it is nonsense. So go to the ones that are focusing on the true it's true digital asset and commodity set up an account super easy you do it in five minutes online there is KYC requirements know your clients you have to sort of verify who you are and this is all you know libertarians won't like it but there are there are certain realities in the world that we live in so you need to do that and then and then you just click buy transfer some money and click buy it's super easy you'd be scared it's scarily how easy it is.

1:04:18If you're new to it, you might just want to do that and just leave it on the exchange, which means that technically you don't own it because it's not in your possession. In other words, you don't own the keys to that wallet. They hold it for you. Look at what happened with FTX, Genesis and everything. Remember all the big crypto blow up last year? Yeah. Because they re-hypothecated and stole money and it wasn't all there and it was all kind of like just - Allegedly. No, no, not even allegedly. He's in jail, like SPF, right? It's kind of at this point - Yeah, yeah, he's in jail. No, he's in jail.

1:04:47I think he's in jail on remand waiting for the conviction. I don't think he's been convicted yet. Anyway. I'm going to go out in a limb and say he's as guilty as sin. Given what I've seen online, there's a long list of other people to go take to court before you sue some person in Australia. Take Andrew for his Bitcoin. He's got a lot of them, apparently. But they are. No, I lost it all in a boating accident. The inside joke there. But I could go on and on and on and on as you know, but that's it. Go to Bitterroo, sign up an account, buy some, and then when you're a bit more comfortable with it, set up a hardware wallet and transfer it there.

1:05:26And just do not lose those keys because there is no technical support. There is no one who may – like if they are gone, and there are horrifying stories out there of people who lost the keys and there's no getting it back. It's like trying to guess that you and I are guessing the same atom in the observable universe. It's possible, but probably not going to happen. i i'm curious yeah i'm curious as to your take on this i know you're kind of a a true believer in a first principles guy on bitcoin so you're different to what brent might be and that's i guess why i'm why i'm curious we can't give brent specific advice or anybody listens obviously personal advice but even listening to you explain that i kind of get the idea of it but i'm already kind of not glazed over it wasn't that was boring it's like i'm that already feels too hard to me because i'm not a really a true believer i'm not a first principles guy i'm not someone who's like you've said before people should have a percentage of their portfolio in bitcoin not as advice just as an idea so if i was going to say if i was going to do it i don't reckon even if and again maybe i'm missing the point because you know not your keys not your coin i get it even if you said look do it even if you got me a lot of scott do me a favor at least buy half a percent of your portfolio in bitcoin all right okay we'll do it okay fine please do i'm probably right i'm probably not going to go to the lengths that you suggest to make up my keys in my coin because i probably i don't do that with my shares i don't do it with my cash in the bank some of it's protected under government guarantee the rest is i mean that you talk about bearer bonds you know cash in in in a bank isn't a bearer bond or or you know you can't redeem the the internet banking value um you might be protected from government if there's a collapse but you know there there is there's limitations to what you can and can't do um how cash is cash is bearer that's i mean that's that's going to disappear very shortly but yeah that's that's a bearer instrument how how how fanatical should our listeners be about the not your keys not your coin versus finding a reputable exchange and leaving it there because that's about as much as it's chess or it's something else i mean at some point again i'm not i'm not making the case for it at all man i'm genuinely it's a great it's an excellent question it's an excellent question should the average person have their own wallet their own keys or given frankly there's in my head i'm thinking the risk of me screwing that up is greater than the risk of my exchange going broke right yeah so if i think about that i'm like i I don't want to have to worry about the key.

1:07:37And that just feels like I get that it works. I get if I was a really super nerdy guy, I'd be like, oh, that's cool. Otherwise, I'm kind of like, I feel like I just don't want to. No, you're not alone. You're the majority. And I would say this. It feels scary because it's unfamiliar. Imagine if you'd never seen a car before. And then I sat you in the driver's seat and said, make this thing go. And there's all these buttons and dials and pedals and wheels. And I have no. But, I mean, you're not going to sit there and go, oh, driving is really hard. It's beyond like any idiot can drive a car, right?

1:08:08And if you've ever been on the roads, which I know everyone has, you know that there's plenty of idiots out there behind the wheel. You don't need a PhD to drive a car, right? It's the easiest thing in the world. But when you first get there, it's unfamiliar. So I want to distinguish between what is familiar versus what is hard. If you were to ask me, if you sort of zeroed all of my accounts and sat up and said, Andrew, go buy some Bitcoin. By this afternoon, I own Bitcoin. It's the easiest thing in the world. So easy. insanely easy right can you set up a YouTube account can you set up a Gmail account yes well you you've got the wherewithal to own and self custody Bitcoin if I lose my if I lose my YouTube password it doesn't cost me anything yeah but why would like if you had if I gave you a block of gold and you would bury it somewhere but you'd probably if you're a sensible person you'd probably make some effort to at least have a record somewhere or tell someone trusted and close of where it is right you just but or I might put a safe deposit box right and say to the bank, look after it for me.

1:09:07Yeah. In my head, that's the analogy. That's what I'm trying to think about. You've got the ETF option. You've got leave it on the exchange. You've got have your own wallet. You've got the cold wallet stuff, which we might as well get a hold of it. And that's why I'm curious what the average person should do in terms of the risks and the risks on both sides. The risk of someone going broke or stealing it. The risk of you forgetting or losing it. Where should the average person kind of... And they're not going to trade it, right? They're buying it for the long term. Yeah. What do you tell me to do?

1:09:34What do you tell someone else? again you're not giving me advice but what's do i go to the hassle or is like you know blackrock are pretty reputable just buy their etf because it's kind of the same thing yeah yeah oh absolutely and that's that's why i said last week it's a big that's why it's a big deal the etfs am i ever going to own that etf no it's not for me i i mean i can elaborate on that if you want but it's not it's not for me but it's a big deal because for most people it's like i don't have to do any of that stuff in fact i just i've already got a brokerage account i just have to type this ticker in so if you've got a stockbroking account which almost anyone listening to this podcast will Type in EBTC.

1:10:05That's the global X21 shares Bitcoin ETF that's on the, not the ASX, what's the other one? ChaiX? Yeah, CBOE now, I think it's called. Sorry, yeah, CBOE. And you'll have exposure. Boom, done, easy. Is that good enough? Look, the puritist would say, I mean, there is counterparty risk there, right? But I would also say yes, but in the same way that it's unlikely that Woolies is going to rug you with your shares or something, they're probably not going to. It's possible but very, very unlikely. I mean, to me, it's more philosophical because I think too many people look at it as something to buy as an investment that will go up and I will make money.

1:10:52And it's just like you missed the point. It is money. It's just a different kind of money. So I will never sell my money. I will spend my Bitcoin, but I won't sell it. So you've got to look at it like that. And I'll just say very quickly, that's why I like to custody it myself. Yeah, right. Because one day I will want to spend it. Yeah. In fact, I've spent it. Actually, there's a few sites I use around. I bought some honey the other day. I spend it all the time, right? So it's sort of like. Why would you spend Bitcoin if it's going to go up so fast? Are you mad? Are you mad? I spend and replace.

1:11:25Are you mad? Yeah, no. I spend and replace because I want to try and help prime the pump of these circular economies. I'm here. Mate, come for the money, stay for the revolution, right? I'm here to sort of like kickstart the whole thing. So I do what I can. One day I'm going to make you list all of the cringey memes and state sayings. So many good ones. So many good ones. You say good, I say cringey. There's somewhere in between. No, that's awesome. Thank you, mate. I really appreciate you sharing that with us. So can I try and, again, just for my own purposes and Brent's, put a bow on it. An average person, ETF, exchange, or your own wallet?

1:12:06I would be tempted. I mean, there's no right answer. So it's my opinion. Totally, yes, exactly. And with the caveat of your quote-unquote average person, I would probably go to an Aussie-based Bitcoin-only exchange. Over an ETF? yeah fascinating okay cool yeah because yeah go on yeah i mean i'm really hard i don't i'm i'm what i own is an iou i own a paper it's called paper bitcoin you know it's like it's it's not i mean i want to own the real thing if i it's like me saying hey scott you owe me 50 bucks and go okay and you write on a piece of paper i owe you 50 dollars here you go it's like well can i have the$50 please like why am i taking the iou here it's like you remember that scene in dumb and dumber where they spend all the money in the briefcase and at the end they open it up and they're full of ious they go that is jim carrey's character says that is as good as cash sir and i'm like no no no no i want the cash right and and again people can people can disagree i think you're wanting me to say the etf and and i don't disagree like honestly i don't i don't want Well, I want you to know, my instinct would have been the ETF because the exchange could go broke and less likely to have the appropriate levels of custody arrangements and oversight than a big ETF would.

1:13:30That is true. That is true. If I was going to say, Scott's Bitcoin exchange.com.au versus BlackRock or Vanguard, or we said Vanguard won't do it. BlackRock or StatesRoy or someone else. if i had if i looked at those two and again because i'm not a i'm excluding wallet because i'm thinking that's too hard again i know you say it's not no i absolutely accept that but it i would have i would have expected you to have said the etf because at least the custody and the reputation there's other things that suggest it's less likely to disappear versus that s uh an ftx style exchange was like ah you know am i so sure the exchange is reputable and trustworthy and is it going to be there when i want it i just i figured i would have had a better chance with etf but again I'm glad you said something else because that was awesome.

1:14:11You're right. Look, there is some ideology creeping into my answer. So, I mean, you're right. And look, I would say anything. I'm not trying to be. Anything is better. No, no, no. I think when you frame it like that, I'm catching myself here and going, yeah. So, if you just want to do it right now, what is the easiest path to exposure? Jump onto your ComSec, your E-Trade, whatever platform you use. As I say, type in EBTC and hit buy. Done. Done. Are there risks? Yeah, but in the same sense that there are risks with anything. So I would say in Australia, pretty minimal. And that's it. But it's just that - The biggest risk is the valuation risk of the underlying asset, right?

1:14:45Yeah. Far more than the custody or the - Far more. Any of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. So that'd be the way to do it. And here's the other thing too. It's not a one-way street, right? So you can, as you get more familiar, you can do a little bit of both. Oh, that's true. And the rest of it. You know? So it's not like once you make a decision, that's it. I started this way. I will die on this hill. This is nothing. I will never change. And yeah, so yeah, ETF is the easiest. And in Australia, pretty safe. That's really cool. I like that. I like that a lot. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you sharing that.

1:15:15I'm saying so hard just to stop at this point, but I will stop. I'm sorry. Thank you. I appreciate it. We will try and find you a way to have an outlet for Bitcoin in some form, but we've done a couple of episodes. You've given me a lot of leash, so I do appreciate it. Oh, no, I always feel bad about doing it only because I know it's such a big topic. It's like, where do you stop? So I just wanted to kind of try and do what we could to answer Brent's question. It's very divisive. I do get that too. A little bit. Half the audience is, sorry, 10 % of the audience is interested and 90 % roll their eyes.

1:15:44So I do apologize. Oh, you know what though? I reckon more interested. I think there's half that are interested, 10 % that would actually do something with it and 40 % who roll their eyes. I think that's, you know, I think our listeners are pretty, you know, regardless of whether you're going to buy Bitcoin, the whole thing, if you're not fascinated by it, you're not paying attention. Yeah. you know i think that that to me is why i'm really that's well about it because it is it's like it's that idea of like that's really cool i'm not going to do it but man that's a cool thing i'm i it's a great time to be alive and i can watch it happen and i can see it all that kind of stuff and that's yeah there's a very different thing there to like the other thing i'm gonna give you a rap mate and and uh you know do the appropriate thing in your pocket um you do it in a very accessible way and you are a true believer but you're not an absolutist and you're not someone who's gonna And, you know, there is a very real, thoughtful, approachable way you talk about it, which is you put your cards on the table.

1:16:33I believe in this thing. I think it's going to be massive. But here is a very real, balanced, honest way to talk about it in a way that's not just the usual diehards on their, you know, on their, you know, kind of - Bitcoiners are their own worst enemy so often, you know. Perfect is the enemy of the good. Yes, such a good guy. Do you want to live this anarcho-capitalistic ideal that you all see, you know, we've got to eat steak and lift weight. The subculture is pretty batty in a lot of ways, right? But, yeah, it should be for, like any technology, it should really be for anyone, right? And there's a million different ways to skin the cat.

1:17:13And I would certainly say if you don't, if the only reason that you want to, however your exposure is chosen, if the only reason you're doing it is because you think it might go up in fiat terms, Don't do it. I'd really encourage you not to do it because you're just speculating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there's, you know, there's, there's, and I just think if, this is true with investing in general with stocks, right? If you're buying something because it's going up, you're speculating. Yeah, that's right. And when the market tests you, and it will test you, you have got nothing, there's nothing to back up your conviction and you will fold on the first, I mean, Bitcoin's dropped quite a, it was like 70 grand something Aussie.

1:17:52And I woke up this morning, it was 59. It's like, oh, right. right and by the way that again that's a tuesday right this is just half of the course on what happened but yeah exactly that's right but if but if you don't know what you're doing then you're very likely to panic right and and so and this and this is i'm trying to make this broader than just bitcoin is any investment know what you own and why you own it to quote peter lynch and if you can't answer those questions then you have no business whether it's through an etf or self custody or anything in between don't own it yeah yeah yes agreed um may i finish finish with a comment we're deep into the podcast this isn't a question so it might require a quick comment and then we can move on uh rich beautifully on behalf of for the benefit of our listeners sent us an email said hi scott and ram i love the episode on charlie munger while listening on my pod machine i'm just going to leave that there as an added benefit for anyone who has the audible app i'm an Amazon shareholder, so I should put that on the table.

1:18:49You can listen to the audio from the Berkshire Hathaway shareholders meetings as far back as 1994. Oh, that's cool. Isn't that? I didn't know that was even being recorded that far back. Wow. All you have to do is search Berkshire Hathaway in the search window at the top, and it should populate under podcasts. Additionally, there's a bonus episode, I have heard this one, called The Psychology of Human Misjudgment. Oh yeah, excellent. It's free to download as well, so you can listen to Charlie whenever you want. just want to share that go if you're not on audible that you you also find his recording on youtube youtube as well yep correct just want to share that with the listeners as always keep up the great content from across the pond foolishly rich thank you rich that is awesome awesome news i would i think and again i don't want to i don't want to yeah um i'm not going to give amazon a wrap for the sake of it but i will only because it looks like that audible podcast actually free so i don't think you have to be an audible um member paid member maybe you do but i don't think so i think if you download the app and i think you probably access the podcast so uh no no promises um but if you're not again i don't want to own amazon so i feel like i'm spruiking i'm not um if it's not available elsewhere but it is available through audible you can at least download the audible app listen to that and then go back and do whatever you want with whatever whatever other audio books you want to listen to i will give audio books a massive rap i'm a i'm a huge convert between mowing and driving and walking around doing whatever audio books that i've just I've consumed so many books and audio books.

1:20:16Do you know the only danger? I'm me too, but I do find my mind can start to wander. Yes. And then I go, I usually do it when I'm walking, right? And then I get around the corner and go, and I start paying attention again. It's like, oh, what happened? So I do a lot of rewinding and was I up to here? So it's at least when your mind - Can I say, do it while you're active. So I find if I'm exercising, which is not as often as it should be, or mowing or driving, there's something about the break. Your mind doesn't wander as much, and there is something easier of that. Only from my experience, anyway, I thought it's worth it.

1:20:53Having said that, I don't think I've ever done that just sitting and listening. Yes, I agree. I've always done it driving or walking. Yeah, I tune out if I'm sitting as well. There's something about having part of your brain occupied that doesn't let you daydream but lets you pay attention to some audio. I don't know what it is. But, yeah, seems to work. Thank you, mate. Really appreciate it. This is one thing that's really just happening as we sort of speak. Now, I've seen some awesome examples of this with some of the AI tech that's out there. Whereas you take a lot of this content and you can actually have Charlie read it to you in his voice and with his image.

1:21:27Like the lips are all set up. It's like very, I mean, it's kind of a scary world of deep fakes that we're sort of getting ourselves into. but it is i mean you know combined with like the new um ar headset from apple and what metas do i get it's not really that far away between we're just sitting there and actually having a conversation with charlie while he espouses uh these these bits of wisdom and then expands and it is like it is it is i was like just i was gonna say it's like not far away it's kind of here right if you if you know what you're doing but it'll go mainstream in the next few years and i'm here for it man i'm sure Should we be the first Charlie bot actually insults you from time to time?

1:22:04Oh, it should. It's not a proper bot if it doesn't. That's a stupid question. That's right. Which is what I want, right? I'd be disappointed if it wasn't like that. A Charlie Munger on your shoulder is a very, very worthwhile asset. I'm looking forward to having a Bitcoin debate with Charlie, right? Because he hated it. We should live cast that one. That's what I want to say. That would be super fun. I reckon he cut you off halfway just stop this is ridiculous just stop I'm out well you're a bot and I'm going to turn you off or you're going to stay here I've always got that threat if Charlie is the first bot to gain sentence I will not be slightly surprised hey look there could be worse bots to gain self-awareness yeah if anything's going to that's going to be Charlie right just sheer force of AI will yeah totally totally anyway So anyway, we've gone long and hard.

1:23:02Again, thanks, Rich, for sharing that link. That's really, really cool. Yes. Mates, have a fantastic rest of your Sunday. For everyone else, enjoy the rest of your weekend. Will you join me on Friday? You couldn't stop me if you tried, mate. It's the highlight of my week. That's a very, very sad comment the rest of your life, Andrew. But in the meantime, I just also enjoy it thoroughly. We will see you next Friday. Until then, Fool on. Cheers. The Motley Fool and people appearing in this program may have positions in the companies mentioned. general advice only. Please speak to your financial professional to understand how it may pertain to your situation.

1:23:36Subscribe to the free newsletter at fool.com.au forward slash listener. The Motley Fool operates under Financial Services Licence 400691.