Mailbag, incl: Should we incentivise our politicians? October 5, 2025

26:40The example I love is the Middle Ages, it would take hundreds of years to build a cathedral. And so there were generations of families that would work on something that they would never see the end of. Yes. And yet here I are 800 years later and they're still magnificent. Like we do not build. Roman aqueducts. Roman aqueducts. Roman aqueducts. Some of those aqueducts are still in use. Do you know, here's an interesting tip, but they only rediscovered the formula for Roman concrete like in the last year or two. I didn't know they'd found it. I know they've been trying for ages. That's true. They found it, yeah.

27:15Oh, that's awesome. It's like super strong, super, obviously, because it's thousands of years old. But like those kinds of things, like the return on investment is so insanely high. Yeah. And perpetual. The other thing about a sovereign wealth fund is that those Roman aquaracts will eventually, maybe in 4 ,000 years, break, fall down. Yeah. Right? The Harbour Bridge, we've needed to put a tunnel under the harbour because it wasn't quite enough forever. Yeah. But the return on that has been phenomenal. A sovereign wealth fund that is literally an eternal product, you only ever use the proceeds.

27:47Yeah. It is a gift. We're in quote land, mate, so I will just throw my usual favourite proverb, which is, A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. So good. And that always gives me goosebumps. and that's because I'm just soft and whatever. But that's surely the very least we can do. Speaking of which, from the sublime to the ridiculous, Steve has a second question. Secondly, my question is, I've been looking at investing in Bitcoin and I was thinking of doing something similar to this and start putting small amounts away investing in Bitcoin for a 20 plus year timeframe.

28:21But my struggle so far has been getting my head around how to invest in it. And I was wondering if Andrew would be able to help me with a way slash place to invest small amounts like this or even if this type of tactic would be worthwhile. Now, Steve, I've had enough Bitcoin stuff to know that the phrase you're looking for is stack sats. I understand you can't give me personal advice, only general in nature. As I said, I love the show and hope this ramble slash question meets the standard to warrant your viewpoint. Take it easy. Thanks, Steve. Actually, I can give you advice. Go. Because the regulation around quote unquote crypto means I can say whatever I like.

28:56I can't say it with shares and property too. So I can shill that all day long and the regulator's cool, bro. Totally cool. So I can give advice. I'm not going to though. That's a good question. Well, I mean, so I didn't mention it in answer to the question, but now I have to. But my kids both have a digital wallet, Bitcoin wallet, and I pay them in Bitcoin for the jobs. They hate it, by the way. So cringe, Dad. Yeah, well, it's also because they're just sick of me talking about it. But I tell you what's powerful, though, is because we've been doing it for a few years. And you go, hey, remember?

29:33Because I let them cash it in every now and again. I act as the exchange. So it's like you send me the Bitcoin, I'll give you the dollar equivalent. It's like, remember that time when you bought the basketball? Do you realize now that you could have bought a basketball hoop five? You know, like it just like, it really puts that opportunity cost in perspective. Dads never lose a chance to have told you so, do they? Never, never, ever, ever, ever, ever. What is it for the stack sets, mate, on a regular basis? It's so easy. I mean, it's just the same as you would with shares. You say with shares, you go to a ComSec or an E-Trade, a Charles Schwab or whoever, there's thousands of them out there.

30:09You open up an account and you buy it. It's really easy. The only thing I would say is go Australian-based because you've got further protections. Avoid the crypto exchanges. So focus only on Bitcoin exchanges. So I'll give a shout out to Hardblock and Bitteroo. Personally, I use Bitteroo. I know both the guys, the good guy, the hardcore. They're here for the mission. These dudes are here for the mission, right? I tell you, this is not about making money. This is about like improving. Do well by doing good, right? Seriously, man. It's so true, right? You come for the money and you stay for the revolution.

30:49but but i i mentioned them because and this isn't to so every time i say this we get all the letters from the crypto enthusiasts who feel as though i'm being unfair to them but but the the look at coinbase for example right they make squillions of dollars by trying to provide a veneer of respectability and credibility to a whole bunch of meme tokens so there's absolutely nothing use case there. And if you want to be a degenerate gambler, then fine. I mean, go to TAB or do it, do whatever you want to do. I'm a, I'm a, you know, people should do what they like, but just don't pretend that you're investing, right?

31:26Like that is, and the Bitcoin only exchanges, you know that they are a more noble calling because they are turning their back on a very lucrative industry. Very lucrative. Say, I don't do it. We only sell Bitcoin because that's the only one that's like not controlled by anyone and is a neutral digital commodity and not like the pet tech project of someone who's going to rug pull you and and dump all their coins on you after they've convinced you it's bitcoin 2.0 uh unfortunately the world has to learn this lesson every few years um so so but anyway i'm rambling go to either of those two apologies if i've missed out on any other hard block or bitter root open up an exchange and buy it and then the only and And then once you've done that, I would encourage you to buy a hardware wallet and then you can self-custody it yourself.

32:12Start with small amounts, play around with it. You'll get very familiar with it. Then just get your kids to go into the App Store. There's a bazillion different ones. Blue Wallet's a good one. Wallet of Satoshi's another good one. Strike's a good one. And then once you've got it, here's the thing. There's no middleman. You can send it to them back and forth as many times as you want and they will see that because it always gives it to you in the current fiat value. And they will see that evolve and change over time. And, yeah, I think it's a good idea. Nice. Thank you, man. There you go, Steve.

32:43Hopefully that helps. Can I say one more thing while we're on this? It's not about this. So I tweeted out this recently. So the Australian Bitcoin industry body, shout out. I'm a happy paying member of them. They do God's work. I assume the payment fee is in Bitcoin, surely. Yes, it is. But most of the members pay in fear because you want to keep the Bitcoin, right? Fair. I'm going to blank on the name. You spend the wheat currency, you keep the strong, right? Anyway, they're doing really good stuff and talking about lobbyists, right? They're just trying to sort of make sure that politicians are well educated before they make decisions.

33:23So the Australian-based regulators have, for good reason, thought, we should probably regulate this space. Gosh, there's a lot of grift and scam in this space and we should regulate it. And there was a quote from some crypto bodies saying, we welcome the added transparency and regulatory clarity. Of course they welcome it. Of course they do. And I push back on it and shout out to the guys at Abib because what the regulators are going to do inadvertently is provide an aura of respectability and credibility. It's regulated by ASIC. Therefore, it's credible. And the point that I made is that you must remember that the most serious, egregious examples of financial malfeasance in Australia and around the world have been perpetrated by regulated entities, right?

34:15So I need to just say that to think, first, let's not kid ourselves that by regulating it, we make all the bad people go, we don't. And the unintended consequences is when you start doing this, you, to the casually interested outside observer, You go, I'm going to buy Fartcoin because it's regulated. And if ASIC's given it the stamp of approval, it must be legitimate. And it's such a shame because people are going to discover the hard way that it's nothing other than drift and scam. And unfortunately, if they only did it to the one that no one can screw with and no one can control, it's kind of what makes it different, right?

34:55They'd be far better served. So please, please, please. I love the curiosity that we're seeing in this space. Just do yourself a favour and do a little bit of research and understand why it's a one-time invention and these other things are just going to, you're going to regret it. I have a question from Declan. I'm going to ask you to take a deep breath, mate, because this is a criticism slash objection slash question about whether or not Bitcoin could lead to bad outcomes. Okay. I'm going to just ask you to just... Okay. All right. A question from Rahans and Declan. As I've hit a roadblock on my bit, I mean, sound money journey.

35:27If we transition to a sound money system, says Declan, where governments can no longer print money to fund institutions and must tax transparently to fund policies, is there a risk that rogue algorithms fueling populism and voter short-termism could lead us to an even worse form of governance? For example, I'm a keen spear fisherman, and from what I see, any changes to fisheries limits made by governments to protect fish stocks from an ever-growing Australian population is met by a strong backlash and people refusing to accept the science. Is there a chance sound money in a sound money world would make it more likely for fisheries experts to be left with no funding and leave us with a big, beautiful ocean and not a fish to be seen.

36:07Kind regards, Declan. Does it lead to more populism when you get the tyranny of the masses rather than other more distributed sorts of policies? No, a strong no. And the reality is that all a sound money system would do is just make... I mean, you said it there, Declan. It makes it more transparent. So if you want to talk about the funny buggers that can go on with algorithmic manipulation, like it is far, far easier to do in a flexible based fiat system. Because you can't hide it. That's the whole thing with hard slash sound money is you can't, because you can't create out of thin air, I mean, people will notice that you're taxing them more.

36:49That's right. Right? So it actually holds people to account. Now, the second part of your question is, but if we can't print money, you haven't said this, but it's effectively what you're saying. If we can't print money out of thin air, we won't have enough money to do all these things that I personally value. Or at least that somehow democracy gets perverted by the majority rather than government making broad policies. Yes, same kind of thing, but different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:18You've got to, it starts with a false proposition, which is at the moment, that's not a problem. Yeah. Now, we discussed this quite heavily on Friday in its sort of tangential kind of way, but the piper is always paid. You can add an extra zero to a digital ledger on a bank account. It doesn't change the amount of resources. It doesn't change what people desire to do. It just, it shifts the burden and the costs to a more indirect fashion. So you're still paying. Like, do not kid yourself. If you think, I need to have a system where the government can create money out of thin because then they can pay for all of these things that I like.

37:57And that's great because now I don't have to pay for it with tax. You're still paying it. You're just paying it by your grocery bills have gone up. Petrol has gone up. Your house price has gone up. Like everything has gone up because of this stuff. And then we turn around and go, oh, but at least we're not paying anymore. Yes, we are. It's just the great and beautiful thing about sun money is it just – sunlight is the best disinfectant. And it just shines a light on everything. It's like here, it just, people don't like it because there's a lot of aspects of reality that we don't like. And I don't like it either.

38:31I do not like that there is poverty in the world, that there is inequality in the world. But by able to conjure monetary units out of thin air does not change that reality. And in fact, creates added distortions that generally more often than not make these problems worse. I think the pushback tends to come, it's a great pushback, Declan, and it's a common one. is because it's like, well, we have to do this because we have to look after people. And I really, really, really get the idea and I really get the sentiment. But I just make the point again, you're still paying for it, man. In fact, it's worse than that because the people who can most easily afford it aren't paying and the people least capable of affording it are the ones who are paying, i.e.

39:12the lower class, middle class. They're the ones who pay through much higher inflation. You know, you've got 15 different investment properties and a$2 million portfolio. asset values do wonderfully well through flexible monetary systems because that's where all the money flows. So they're fine. Inflation goes up 5%, your portfolio goes up 10%, so you're still ahead. I'm okay. Whereas the person trying to get by is, yeah, pay more for groceries. I'm totally cool with inflation. I work in a factory and the only thing I have to offer is my labour. And each year, an hour of my work can buy me less and less and less and less.

39:44So what you're really – so again, just to summarise the point, not shut up, it's like either way someone has to pay. It's just, who do you want to pay? Do you want it to be transparent and fair or do you want it to be obscured and unfair? And this is the thing I try and really, you know me, man, I've got left leanings on a lot of different things, right? I'm very pro-social justice and all of this kind of stuff, not to play too much of my hand, but it feels like when you start talking about some certain economic principles or hard money, it's very easy to be painted as this this uncaring capitalist and i swear to god my is is is fairness and equality and it just that's what that's what a hard money does and we can then as a society choose to say do we want to do something about protecting fisheries yes we do okay let's allocate some resources to it and and let's and in doing so let's confront the not nice but nevertheless factual reality that we have limited resources to spend so if i'm going to protect the fish there's probably something else that's not going to get as much as my attention and then and that is we're going to pay more tax to do it now we can have a debate yeah but but we're having a real debate based on reality as opposed to at the moment where we have this fiction this fantasy that we can have our cake and eat it too we can address climate change we can to address inequality.

41:11We can help wars on the other side of the world and we can do it all. And not only are we not going to increase your taxes, we're going to decrease your taxes. Look how clever we are. As if, as if that could possibly work. I'll say it again. By making arbitrary digits change on a bank's database. It makes no sense. Great question though, Declan. Great question. I am going to agree. And I share Declan's view. I share Declan's view. I just want to add that I likewise agree that we should be doing far more to protect our oceans. I can 100 % agree with you, mate, but also just acknowledge Declan's point a bit.

41:58So, you know, this kind of, when you're a parent, there's the white lies you tell your kids, right? Allegedly, hypothetically. Yeah. They won't be mentioned, but it's possible. and we tell the white lies because we want to make it easier for us to do the things that are good for the kids generally speaking in that context right there's other white lies that aren't that but that's that i suspect declin is actually right to the extent that the fiction they're allowed to portray because we don't have a sound or a hard money does actually make it easier for them to do those things and defray and hide those costs now if you are generous you're saying it's a bit of a white lie i'm paying more for groceries but we're saving the fisheries and And that's probably better than paying less for groceries, not saving the fisheries.

42:39So there's been a net positive. So I don't think Declan is wrong, which is not to say we shouldn't have Bitcoin or sound money. I just think both are true. And I think what sound money requires of us, which depending on your view and how jaundiced you feel on a given day, is for us to actually have adult responsible conversations, firstly. And then secondly, make adult responsible decisions. Now, if you've watched Donald Trump get elected, if you've watched people vote for tax cuts and handouts and other things, if that's been the experience over the last few years, and it has been, again, there's not a reason not to do sound money, mate.

43:13So I don't want to come down to an ideological view here. But I do suspect Declan may actually be right, that it's easier to pass responsible policy when the mechanism to do so is hiding the costs. Now, is it dishonest? Yes. Is it a white lie? Depends on your view, right? It's either a very, very black lie because you're an absolutist or it's like, okay, white lie because you think, well, all right, fine. The fisheries get saved. NDIS gets funded. Other things happen which couldn't happen or wouldn't happen or we'd have those harder conversations. At least this way, the objectives are met, even if the costs are hidden.

43:43And I think there's some in the world of real politic rather than ideology or idealism, I think that's actually true. Whether it should be, whether what traders we choose to accept, I think are real. So I think Declan's premise is not wrong, whether it's enough whether it's good enough whether we should actually grow up is a good question it does require though ironically for you you're more optimistic here or at least more dedicated to the cause in the sense that you're saying we should just have the adult conversation I'm the one saying I'm not sure we'd have them and maybe we would actually be worse off in that world because we're not prepared to have those adult conversations or we can't vote responsibly because evidence says we probably won't that's I think he's got something there that's a good point it's not enough and it's not right but it's a trade-off I suspect so So I actually don't disagree in the special case that all expenditure decisions are prudent and for the greater good.

44:35Exactly. And that's what I'm saying. That's the white lie versus black lie problem, right? This is the problem. So if you had, and this isn't a go at a particular go, it's just a go at human nature. Yeah, and voters, right? That's the other problem. You know, so it's sort of like, it's what we, and it's not, I don't think it's just a negative assertion, but more just a realisation of reality, is that when you hand people unlimited amounts of money, which is effectively what we're doing with the current system we have, a lot of it is going to be wasted. And it's just a dictator versus self-interested party and all that stuff.

45:09And so the best example, I'm going to say this with a dead straight face, right? And I know it'll be a bit out there. But I think we would significantly reduce the incidence of major war on planet Earth in a hard money standard. Because at the moment when we see things happening, we go, yeah, let's do something about it. And we just, we print money off and then we do it. And everyone's, it's very easy to get behind a war. I mean, I can't even believe I'm saying, I would imagine that that is always the last thing that we would ever want to do to send our young people over to be cannon fodder. It's just, I cannot fathom that we would do that lightly, but we do and we make that all the more easier because we as the populace don't face a direct cost now let's use some okay let's stay away from that topic let's no yeah okay i'm not going to mention any current conflicts because i don't want to be cancelled good thank you um but but i would imagine if there was some horrible dictator doing horrible things in some other part of the world that we as a civilized people as we like to consider ourselves are against and the prime minister got up and said we're going to go and do something about that yeah and most of us would go yes we're happy with that i would also put it to you if they said we're going to do something about that and by the way we're going to put your taxes up by 10 for the next year or two to fund it that's a different conversation yeah now it's the same conversation but it just puts into stark relief the real cost of doing this and and when i just again human nature being human nature, I think most people are going to find that they are far less warmonger-ish when it's coming out of their pocket.

46:57And in the old days, that's what you had to do. The king would go around and collect taxes off, you know, get the gold, and then they would go and fund a war. They would sometimes issue bonds and say, I'll promise to pay you back. But you know, at some point under that gold standard, if it couldn't be made, that would be the end of the empire, it would collapse, right? And you would want to make sure there were some really decent spoils to that war to do it. I mean, I had a great podcast the other day is basically saying we spent$13 trillion, this is the US, we spent$13 trillion in Afghanistan for no material ends, right?

47:29In fact, we just made the entire situation worse. It never came out of your tax payment. But that's, again, why you're paying three times as much at the grocery store now. Like that is the cost. And so your point is an excellent one. But unfortunately, my view is it only works in instances where there is an objective argument for this is good, and this is necessary. But politicians, people, I shouldn't even pick on politicians, people are going to pursue their pet projects, and they're going to do it badly. And they're going to make all kinds of mistakes. And it's just, this just makes it easier.

48:04So the other thing to state with all of these things is I want to be careful to do this because I think both sides make this mistake of the Nirvana fallacy. If only people would see the world through my lens and enact my system, the world would be perverted. Here I am talking about the end of war, right? So I get it. I get it. But if we switch to a hard money system tomorrow, do the world's problems go away? No, there's still horrible things that happen in the world. My contention is that it's not perfect. that's just orders of magnitude better than what we've got at the moment. And it leads to a far better decision-making framework.

48:40I hope so. Unusually, again, you're the octopus here. I'm the cynic. I do wonder, you're right about the go and fight the foreign wars thing. I do wonder whether, and we're just about superannuation, whether short-termism and self-interest would actually mean we're underprepared for other potential issues because, you know, how much harder is it to fund climate action if we can't borrow, for example? Yeah, sure. And so you're right. It's absolutely all about who's making the decision and how good the decisions are. And I'm not defending it for its own sake, but I do think if I was a benevolent dictator and I thought there was a real and present danger and I could borrow the money and simply make sure I got the outcomes on behalf of my people, because, again, let's show me genuinely cared and was trying to do the right thing, it would be easier for me to do that, to fund, you know, we do our overseas wars.

49:23You know, Japan might be coming over the horizon. Yeah, but they might not be. We're going to pay 10 % more tax and that stuff. We'll just see if they come or not. You know, there is some element of, And this is a question about democracy more broadly, right? Like direct democracy is hot. You mentioned democracy before. Helper's the high standard. Direct democracy on everything means no minority interest ever gets funded because 51 % of the people don't want that thing. They want, you know, do museums get funded? Probably not because 51 % of us probably don't care about the museum. A couple of dinosaur bones, who cares?

49:50Do social programs get funded? Ah, bloody doll bludgers. Half is voting against the doll. Okay, now you go. And I'm not saying, again, it's not an excuse. But everyone in their own mind is a benevolent dictator. That's the problem. I know, I agree with you. But I guess I'm acknowledging that we remove the capacity for that potential response, which could harm or help. And historically tends to do more harm than help is my contention. You know, like let's talk about looking after disabled people, right? Well, the NDIS is an absolute disaster. Yeah. Like an absolute disaster. And again, I'm very much in favour of - As a program, yes.

50:24Yeah, as a concept, as an idea. You know, we talked about the EV thing. I mean, I'm massively in support of that kind of stuff. Absolute disaster the way it's been rolled out. You'd have to fund it by increasing taxes on someone else or cutting spending somewhere else to do it. And that brings us into the cyclones. Just forces a more – it doesn't solve every world's problem. We're all dealing with reality. As soon as we deny reality, we're just going to make bad decisions. We're going to have bad arguments. You know, that's all it is. But you're right. I will concede in a benevolent, all-knowing dictator, that's the exception.

50:59but that doesn't exist so you know it narrows the range of outcomes in both directions yeah good decisions that may otherwise have helped may not be taken bad decisions that may have hurt otherwise won't be taken we just have to choose to live in that world that's completely reasonable yeah yeah Motley Fool Money for more subscribe to the free newsletter at fool.com.au forward slash listener

51:21hey your question says just call me Alex thanks I know it John I could oh pucker no I'm kidding just call me Alex says Alex all hail Scott and rampage. There we go. Well, so he does and then he undoes the good work. Oh, no. I'll skip the bit where I say how much I love the pod, which I do. I know you'll get that in the question before or after mine. Let's just pretend I said something really nice, witty, and move on. Alex, have you actually been listening to the podcast? Next question. Next question. All right. Got a question from Simon. No, I'm kidding, Alex. I will answer your question, but just one time.

51:51Try harder. One time. After that, one warning. We have very fragile egos. Alex has got a good idea, at least in theory. You may end up with a bit of a data problem. Let's see how you go. Here's the problem, says Alex. Politicians don't really have much incentive to think long-term. Beyond vague ideas of legacy or maybe just the goodness, question mark, of their hearts, there's not a lot pushing them to make decisions that set Australia up for a future 20 or 30 years from now. So let's fix that, says Alex. Let's pay them. Right now, the PM makes a bit over 600 grand, cabinet ministers about$400 ,000, and the humble backbencher about$235 ,000.

52:31Not bad coin, and I actually think that's fine. If we want smart people to sign up for what looks like a pretty terrible lifestyle choice, they should be paid well. But historically, the big perk was the pension. Old school pollies, think Peter Dutton or Albo, will pocket about$250 ,000 to$280 ,000 per year for life. But anyone elected after 2004, they only get super. The rest is up to private sector lobbying jobs, which, well, is a different can of worms. Here's my idea, says Alex. Create a national scorecard of things everyone can agree make Australia better. He says in brackets, make Australia great.

53:10Dangerous slogan. And then link the polly's future pay to how well we actually hit them. Targets for stuff like housing costs less than four times the average salary. Average rent, less than 20 % of wages. Most housing developments actually get built within two years. GDP per capita growth above 2.5 % a year over the long run. Net debt under 50 % of GDP. Reliable public transport for 90 % of people, based on low-calorie. Energy that's cheap and reliable for industry. You get the gist, says Alex. The tug should be hard, but achievable. Measurable, not politically spinnable. Yes or no, achieved or not, no middle ground.

53:47And here's the kicker. If Australia meets, say, 60 % of these goals every 10 years after their term, former pollies get a payout. No results, no cash. What's it cost? I've run the numbers, which is terrible for a podcast audience, but, quotes, trust me, about$13 million a year once it hits a peak steady state, which sounds like a lot, but it's actually less than we still fork out for pre-2004 polypensions at about 0.002 % of the national budget. In other words, political pocket change for potentially a lot of long-term good. So my question, am I crazy? Or could paying politicians for results, the right results, actually help fix short-termism in Canberra?

54:31Cheers, Alex. I love the way you're thinking, Alex. I really do. The trouble with it is, it was implicit in your question, you said at some point issues that everyone agrees are important. Yeah. And that's the undoing of it right there. It's democracy though, right? It's no different to electing politicians based on something else. Yeah, but what we do with, we actually elect politicians to make decisions for us. So we don't elect them on, these are the specific things that you must enact. In fact, things will happen in real time and then Alba gets to make the call. right that's that's kind and it has to be that way that's where it's just made the point before we just we just can't do it so so yes it's kind of right but but it's it's like a lot of good ideas on paper it's it's not that they're bad ideas actually not at all i love tying it's it's like what you're really sort of getting it here is a remuneration structure that we often talk about with ceos exactly that yes you know and you're transferring it to the political realm which I'm just all on board for like as a concept, but it's just like, what are the targets?

55:39What are the frameworks? How do we measure them? And how do you account for the unknown unknowns? It's like we put in a target that in three years, like it might've been at some point we thought it'd be really good that everyone, every household in Australia has a fax machine because that means we're far more interconnected. And then it's like, it becomes a redundant target at a point. And that's probably not a great example, but these things happen all the time. And it's like, well, now what? And this is what's so beautiful about the price system and free markets is it's a distributed, decentralized, emergent system where it doesn't require any planning.

56:18It just requires correct incentives. So I love systems which lean into those kinds of things. I do agree. Which is your idea, the incentives. It's getting into incentives directly here. It's just a question of how you do it. It's the specificity in establishing them, tracking them, measuring them and accounting for change. And it's just sort of like, it's that old saying, the devil is in the detail. But, yeah, I mean, I actually like the old school, I don't know, was it Venice or somewhere way several hundred years ago where it was like the elected representatives were people from the community, kind of like how we do jury duty, right?

56:53Like every, it was in the day it was a man, it was a man's world sadly back then, but it was like, you know, every man must pay his civil duty and that you, like you will do jury duty at some point or something like that. It's just part of being a citizen. Citizens assembly kind of idea. Citizens assembly kind of thing. When you get career politicians, that makes it a little bit different. Again, your incentives can be quite different. When you have even political parties, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, this needs to get deep for a second here. Like, it's just like, well, notionally when I vote, so everyone votes thinking, like, let's say you're a Labor supporter.

57:34Everyone in the last election thought they were voting for Albo. And I guess they kind of were, but no, you were. You were voting for the person in your electorate. Correct. Right? And I bet you couldn't even name them before you went rocked up to the booth. And I'm not having a go at you. I couldn't either, right? Unless you had a minister or a leader in your electorate, you probably know who the person is. So all the time, you've got local elected representatives going expressly against the wishes of their community because they're aligned with their party and not with their direct community.

58:05And you go, well, Andrew, that's going to make a very messy thing. It's going to be very hard to make decisions. Like, yeah, kind of. But also not, right? Because then you end up with someone proposes something as effectively a private member's bill and your job is to convince half the parliament they should vote. Yeah, you're right, right. Is it hard? Kind of. but that is literally to representative democracy. My constituents think this is important. Can I convince 51 % of you guys to agree? That's the job. Yep. And so, look, I'll stop the ramble. I really want to be careful, Alex, to not throw cold water over.

58:36Because I just, there's so much of what you said that I think is just so noble and directionally correct. It's just the specificity that undoes it. And in response to it, I don't have, well, by the way, here's the solution. I don't have the solution other than the broad brushstrokes of it really needed to be based around a very considered view of the incentive structure as opposed to the specifics. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, and that's why I have a lot of – and you're right about CEOs. I would say that a CEO's incentive, for example, should only invest five years after they've left the role.

59:13Yeah. Because it means they have to think long-term, they have to invest in their replacement and make sure things are set up before they go rather than just mic drop, walked out, great results, because I pulled sales forward, got my bonus, rode in the sunset, and the poor bugger who's after me has got to try and clean up the pieces. So yes, I think that's right. Conceptually, Alex, I think you're 100 % right. To Ram's point, by the way, and I'm not going to pick on you in particular, Alex, but for example, I noticed there's no environmental outcome in those lists, which is fine, except that when you say we should do something about the environment, the policy says, but hang on, you've told me my target is for GDP per capita growth at 100 % above a year over the long run, and you've told me that I have to have energy that's cheap and reliable.

59:48Well, that means I'm going to have to pollute the rivers and burn out to coal because that's how I get high GDP growth and cheap energy. So we leave that bit out. The unintended consequences are we get the things we measure, you know, what gets measured gets done, as they say, and we miss the stuff that isn't in there, for example. And it comes back to the earlier point that implicit that you we are assuming that we share the same subjective values and we're human so we don't. I still think that is democracy, that the vote is doing exactly that anyway, because the parties are going to do X, but I take your point.

1:00:19I think I would, though, do... You say it's another point, Alex, and you're right. I think the best way to do that is actually to pay them more money and to ban them from lobbying after their parliament. Oh, that's such an easy layup, isn't it? And it's hard, because people think... You know, the problem with political... This is a bit kind of philosophical, but the problem with politics right now is the less they are trusted, the less people are rewarded of doing things that are untrustworthy, unless you reward them the less trust you can have in them because they're going to find other ways of making money.

1:00:48So right now, if I said to someone, actually, let's double the PM's wage, right? Talkback Radio goes bananas. I was going to say F word bananas, freaking bananas, because, oh, I can't pay more. We don't trust them. They're horrible, horrible anyway. They don't do a good job. And we might even say, are they worth the extra money? Probably objectively, no. But if we said, would I pay a poly double the price? And by the way, Alex, I'd reinstitute their past pensions. I know you're saying this is your version of cheaper and I agree with you. I would absolutely go back to the old pension system. You can have a new politician.

1:01:16You can have an annual pension. You may not ever work in a role. That involves lobbying on behalf of an organisation or, you know, Christopher Pyne's doing lobbying from what he's doing. There's others that are not going to do it. Oh, it's not just him. They're all doing it. Right. Someone walked out and ran on the board of this company or that company. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's disgraceful. So, and again, they would say they're not doing anything wrong, and maybe they're not. And that's – Well, the thing is – They're not legally doing anything wrong. What's also just going to be seen to be done?

1:01:42Maybe they're not. Maybe it's all – but the fact we don't know and can't be sure, and not about Pyne or McGowan, but anybody at any point from here on, yeah, pay them more, give them the pension back, and ban them from lobbying for life. How can you possibly say you can buy access? If you've got enough money, you can buy access to the people who make the big decisions. Like, that is outrageous. Or you can pay me to get access because I know, John, from when we were in Parliament, I'll give you a quick call, I'll get you in the door. That is Pyne's – I'm sorry, Christopher, But that is your only value in this thing is that you know people.

1:02:13That's why you've got the job. It's not for any other reason. There's no other special skill set than that you're connected. Allegedly. Well, I mean, I'm not even having a go at the guy. I'm sure he's a very smart guy. But I mean, let's just call a spade a spade. You are there because of your Rolodex. That is why you were there. And we are saying it is okay for people who have enough money to buy access to our political leaders for the express point of hoping to direct their thinking. Yep. How do you make that case? You can't. There is no case for it. I can't do it. I don't have a million dollars to do it.

1:02:49Anyone should be allowed to spend their money however they want, and anyone should be allowed to talk to a politician if the politician wants to take the meeting. That is the – I've had this conversation on Twitter before. Okay, great. Well, let's line up a meeting with me and Albo then. Well, no, he doesn't want to have a meeting. He wants to have a meeting with the other guy. Ah, right. That's funny how money opens doors, though, right? That's freedom of speech, though, right? I'm not making that up at all, by the way. I'm 100 % with you, mate. I'm just saying that the objection is for the ultra-libertarians who say people should be able to spend their money however they want.

1:03:13It's a democracy. It's a free world. They can spend the money however they want, policy, whatever the money is they want. It's ridiculous. It's indefensible in my opinion. It's where ideology overtakes reality. And the reason I don't have a party partisan view is because I'm a pragmatist at heart. I mean, I'm an idealistic pragmatist, but it's like, just show me the outcome. I'm not going to buy into your ideology in any direction other than which decisions about which policies give the best national interest outcomes. That shouldn't be controversial or weird or unusual, but there we go. So, yeah, I like the thinking.

1:03:45I wish it was true. I wish we could do it. I think Ram's right. You can't change the... You can't govern the incentives meaningfully enough other than at the ballot box. So I think that's probably the answer. What the other problem... Again, back to the philosophy about the trust thing. We don't trust them so we have... It's a curse of low expectations, right? If you don't trust a politician, You're not surprised when they screw up. If you're not surprised when they screw up, you don't expect better because they're going to screw up anyway. Or don't screw up, just do the wrong thing outright. So it's the curse of low expectation.

1:04:14Not the curse on the poll, it's the curse for us. Because if you don't expect more, you don't ask for more. If you don't ask for more, you don't get more. If you don't get more, you don't expect more. And that's a vicious, vicious, vicious circle where we have party hacks and student politicians and union hacks and solicitors and lawyers and et cetera, et cetera, in parliament. And we don't ask for more. Why? Because we just don't expect more. So why would you bother asking if you don't think you're going to get it. So how do you fix that? I don't know, right? Because most people don't expect more.

1:04:38They just kind of think, well, the police are going to screw it up anyway. Just leave me alone in the middle of the thing. That's, again, it's how Trump gets in, right? Love him or hate him and I severely dislike him. He gets in because people went, well, I'm going to get the usual mob for central casting or I can at least try a Hail Mary pass and elect the bloke with the red hat. That's how it happens. And it happened twice because then they replaced him with Biden and Biden seemed old and doddery and was going to change nothing either. So I guess we'll go back to Trump then. But, you know, it's not the fault of the usual suspects that a knucklehead gets elected.

1:05:14But it's absolutely their fault they set the conditions to allow that knucklehead to seem like a better option. That's where the blame sits at their feet, in my opinion. And the thing I was going to add too, just in terms of incentives, they don't have to – so when you're talking about incentives, you can have a carrot, but you can also have a stick. and sometimes the stick's the better incentive mechanism here. So maybe it's not a matter of saying you get a big fat bonus if you do the right thing, but maybe it's about having far higher standards of accountability. Here's the problem now. If you do something completely egregious, like technically legal, but in every other way, shape or form, just the pub test is like, that is not cool, right?

1:05:50Yes, yes. But if you had far more clearer rules on that, Hayek puts it in the way of like rules such that you know in advance what the judgment would be under a set of, like there's not a lot of interpretation required. It's like, oh, you can't kill people? No, that's bad. Don't kill people. Like something that's really obvious like that. And then just make it a massive penalty. If you do something really bad now, it's like the worst thing that happens is the shock jocks talk mean about you. You retire, you lay low for a year or two and you pop up on the board of Optus or something, you know, a little while later.

1:06:25It's just like - Oh, this is true. Well, there's no incentive not to. So rather than giving them a big wad of cash for just doing what we expect of them in the first place, how about we say, well, you've got a lot more discretion here, but if you're caught doing these things, you go to jail, dude. Like, that's it. Like, you get like a$10 million fine and you all go to jail or something that's going to hurt. Like, that I think is a more practical kind of incentive mechanism to sort of come up with there because then we can just, rather than saying, what do we want? I think it's far easier for society to reach consensus on what we do not want.

1:07:03And then if you have done it, you know, like, people always go, oh, but no one will want to be a politician. Yeah, right. The allures of power are going to go away, right? Like, no way. People will be lining out the door. And all we're asking is we're not saying you can't be a politician. There's no benefits to being a politician. Just like, guess what? If you screw over the electorate, you get, you know, F around and find out, basically. And I do the same, in fact, for a lot of corporate malfeasance as well. It's like it just slaps on the wrist. We talked about it with ANZ recently. You know?

1:07:37Make it hurt. Make it hurt. And like I said before, it's like, what's the other side of that argument? That's right. Who's the person going, oh, no, no, you should be able to do this. Don't you mean to the poor rich people? Yeah. And again, it's not like you're rich, we need to punish you. No, absolutely not. It's just like you've got far more power and influence than other people. If you misuse that, there are consequences. If you don't want those consequences, don't do it. We talk about stealing a loaf of bread and everyone goes, oh, yeah, perfectly makes sense. Like, you know, absolutely, you know, wasting generational inheritance through our resources.

1:08:21and that's like, nah, nah, no. Oh, but the person who stole the loaf of bread, oh, they've got to pay. Real value loss there. Someone lost$2. Real value loss. Oh, what? You gave a massive lucrative government contract to your son's best friend? No, that's fine. That's fine. Just don't steal that bread. Just don't steal the bread. Can I finish with the question you're going to appreciate? But it's a short one, thankfully. Okay. It is on Bitcoin. But it will be short. I know it will be short. Good morning, gents. Says Simon. Simon here. Long time listener and multiple question submitter. That's his literally copy.

1:08:57However, my first question about Bitcoin. I'm trying to actually be able to say those sentences without having us pause by the way, Bitcoin. I'm not quite getting there, but I'm working really hard. Can I just say very quickly to interrupt here, it's just like I really, we're getting a lot more questions here. And half my brain is like, oh, that's a really interesting sign that we're getting more questions. The other half of me is like, yeah, because you don't ever shut up about it, Andrew. And so, like, you're fishing for this kind of stuff. The audience is all slitting. And there is half of the audience saying, I never signed up for the magic internet beans, bro.

1:09:27Like, what are you doing? And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's all I could say. But not really. Sorry, not sorry. Exactly. Yeah, I was going to say. All right. This is a good one, though. I do like this one. As I aim to develop my own conviction, could Mr. Rampage please recommend, Mr. Rampage, is that right? Please recommend some genuine research material on Bitcoin. as there's a lot of snake oil out there on the internet. I really appreciate any help you can provide. Thank you in advance, Simon. So if you wanted to learn about Bitcoin, mate, and it's hard to separate education from proselytizing, right?

1:10:00Because that's just the nature of any... I don't know about Bitcoin, that's about anything, right? Want to learn about shares? No one's going to say, here's what you need to do about shares, but don't buy them. It's always going to be written by someone who thinks you should do it. Right. But what's the starter kit, mate, for learning a bit about... I don't know. I think we have a couple of go-tos. Is there any go-to reading or anything? or a resource or YouTube videos or anything? I mean, there is so much out there. I mean, think about it. Let's flip. Make it not about Bitcoin. Like someone comes up to you and says, I'm interested in the stock market.

1:10:28Now, where do you start, right? Obviously, I know those, right? There's the books. The usual, I'd have four or five books. I'd have Warren Buffett's Letters. Yeah. I'd have Beating the Street, One Up on Wall Street by Peter Lynch. Yeah. I'd probably do one of the little books, probably a little book that beats the market maybe, or one of those. Yeah, yeah. There's a couple of things. There's a reasonable canon of starting points. You say, read these three or four books, four or five books, and that's your starting point, right? Is there a single book or books or website or YouTube video where you kind of go, they laid out pretty well here, or this is an interesting insight?

1:11:03I'll give you some. I mean, everyone mentions the Bitcoin standard. Right. And I think that's just got an undue influence because it was one of the very early books. Okay. Becomes kind of canon. Became sort of canon, you know. And it's a decent book, right? But I don't agree with all everything that's in it. And I think that since then are far better things have been written. But I guess the challenge with this is that usually when someone starts talking about Bitcoin, all of a sudden you're in some stupid technical talk about blockchain and proof of work. And it's just sort of like, you know, it's like trying to explain the significance of the internet by talking about transmission protocols.

1:11:39And it's like, that doesn't matter. It's like, let me tell you why a car is a big deal. Oh, is a car a big deal? And rather than saying, yeah, it allows you to have the strength of 200 horses and travel at ungodly speeds that your ancestors couldn't have even imagined. I start talking to you about like fuel to oxygen ratios in an internal combustion engine and what the ignition point is and how it moves a piston. And all of a sudden I'm lost. It's like, why am I talking about this for again? I don't. Differential transmissions and yeah. It doesn't, it kind of, it matters, but it doesn't matter.

1:12:10and the thing about Bitcoin is that to really, and I don't pretend, it's a well-known thing in the space. It's called the rabbit hole because there's no bottom to it. You sort of start with, oh, it's this thing that you can trade and then, oh, but okay, there's an economic lens to it. There's actually a thermodynamics lens to it as well in terms of how this component works. And actually, it turns out that there's a sound money angle to this as well. And actually, there's some really important game theoretical concepts as well. I could go on for like 10, list 10 more things. And each of them are a massive, massive deep rabbit hole in and of themselves.

1:12:48And as I've progressed further down it, I think the better way to think about it is you can't even begin to talk about Bitcoin before you build up a bit of an understanding of what money is. And that sounds really stupid because like, well, who doesn't get money? When my kids were five, they got money. I do this. You give me that. I can now swap that for something else. And we all get that. But I mean, get it. Like a friend the other day is like, well, it's so technical. I don't understand. I was like, oh, okay, cool. Can you explain to me how the current fiat system works? What do you mean? It's like, where's the money come from?

1:13:25Who controls it? Who sets the rate? Yeah. How is it transmitted? Who owns the transmission rails? How does that interoperate with other systems around the world? And then I glazed over. It was like, what are you talking about? It's like, yes, it's complicated, right? And the thing is, until you actually think about what is money, I can't answer the question of, well, what makes a good money? And if I can't answer what's a good money, it's like, well, what's the point of Bitcoin? Because that is always the need. It was my reaction when I first encountered it because I was a massive bear on it like everyone was, right?

1:13:58It was like, I don't get it. What does it do? I'm a middle-class white male in Australia. I've got no, there's no financial repression here. I've got no problem. Like, I don't get it because I never understood what money was, right? And it's such a massive topic. It's like trying to explain what English is in English almost. Yeah. What is water, right? Yeah. Yeah, because it's so, it is the thing that we use to measure everything in our lives, to the amount of work that I'm prepared to do for something, to how much that lollipop costs, like just, you know, and to break that down and then for me to go, all you need to do is read this one book and you'll get it all.

1:14:38And it's super, super hard to do. So that all being said, don't think about it as a technology. The technology is just what enables the thing. And this is a quote from Obama. I'm going to butcher it. But it's like, everyone can now have a Swiss bank account in cyberspace that's free, completely permissionless, uncensorable, unscrewable. Like, I'm paraphrasing Obama here. I don't think, frankly, the original quote wasn't in flattering kind of terms, which is ironic, right? He's making the case again. But yeah, right, right. What? Everyone can have a Swiss bank account that no one can seize? Or is it like, yeah.

1:15:17Kind of the point. You're telling me that that's not a big deal? So start with the big idea and then if you need to be the cryptographic nerd that understands all the inner workings of it, you don't – I'm going to jump on a plane this weekend and head up to see some friends in Brisbane. I don't give a stuff how the internal – how the jet engine works and the foils and the aerodynamic. I just know it works. So start with what – and I've mentioned it a few times on the pod because I think Joe does a really great way of attacking the problem And it's a nice, easy 20-minute YouTube video. It's called What's the Problem?

1:15:50And he just starts with an island example and goes, half the island has this money, half the other. Let's just inductively think it through. And obviously the end point is, well, Bitcoin fixes this kind of thing. So what's from Joe Bryan, yes? Yes, What's the Problem? Yeah, found that. Beautiful. Michael Saylor, who's the CEO of Strategy, formerly MicroStrategy, he's the biggest holder in the world. He's got a website called hope.com. there's some great material on that what about Broken Money but then all this book is that a decent starting point for understanding money you know what even if you just you'll get 90 % through that book and Bitcoin's not mentioned at all fascinating just in that you can put it down at that point and if you don't want to buy and read the book there is also a YouTube video that she's helped create and narrates and it just talks about money and it will really get you there.

1:16:44But I guess you said this is going to be a short one. No, it wasn't. It was never going to be a short one. I honestly thought you would have like four or five things like these five resources are what I recommend for Venus. I'm sorry, I just shouldn't. Yeah, well, the thing is that's changed. So if you'd asked me two years ago, oh, you've got to read this because that was my thing at the time. And now it's like, no, it's like I'm reading The Road to Serfdom from Friedrich Hayek at the moment. Like, how'd you get there? Bitcoin left me there. That's how I got there, right? And then in another couple of years time, I might be like lost in the weeds of game theory and, you know, the Nash equilibrium.

1:17:16I don't know, but it's just, it's so endlessly fascinating and multivariate and multifaceted that it's just, it's real. And it's actually talked about in the space. Like, what is Bitcoin? How do you understand? It's just super, super hard. But I would say this, the one meme in the space I've always really liked is don't trust Verify, which is, I'm great that I can encourage you to be interested in this stuff. There's a few places to start there. Hope.com, the two YouTube videos that were mentioned. I think that'll kick off some thinking. But then just keep pulling on that thread and think for yourself.

1:17:53Don't like some idiot in his Ugg boots in the mountains on a podcast thing. He thinks it's good, so I should too. I could be totally wrong. Same for any podcaster or influencer. And this is the thing. Once you've got some Bitcoin, you want it to go up. So you want everyone else. Let's be real, right? I was like, I've been talking my book here massively. and so it's like am I the best person really because like I'm I am 100 % conflicted on all of this stuff so so get to get to a level of understanding where you yourself can make the argument I'm since I took I think I had a little bit of play money in it for a while but since I've been really serious about it's coming up to four years and I'm still learning stuff every day nice so and I'll put the same to you, mate.

1:18:39I reckon you would say the same with stocks and investing, right? Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. You're still learning, right? It doesn't. Yes. Buffett says buy stuff below their intrinsic value and quality and, you know, all of, yeah, yeah, yeah. That stuff's easy, right? I mean, it's kind of, it's a real epiphany when you first lands, but then it's sort of like, oh, so I have to buy a good business. Yeah. What's a good business? Oh, one that has high rates of return on invested capital and can continue to invest that for long periods of, what yeah well so and and you go a layer deep and then a layer deep and then like before you know it you're like like you can't even see the surface anymore and like you're studying some like network theory which has got what's that well turns out that there's network effect aspects of this particular online marketplace business that i'm exploring because i'm interested in the shares and it's like but you're talking about network theory he's like yeah so how did metcalfe's law come into buying stocks like it's actually really and let me and you would answer that you You would answer it perfectly because after 30-odd years, well, I don't know, almost 30 years now, you've been going down that rabbit hole.

1:19:43And I reckon if I interviewed you in 10 years' time, you would go, you know what I didn't get at 50, Ram? I didn't get this. So true, mate. So true. And it's the same with Bitcoin. So I'll shut up as much as I can. No, I love it, mate. I think that's really useful. I think, yeah, lots of good stuff. I will give the Bitcoin standard a shout out and a criticism at the same time. Just in terms of you mentioned it, and there's lots of I don't agree with it either. I think if you can read Bitcoins, I struggle to get through it because it drove me a bit nuts because it's a little bit polemic. Maybe it's the best way to say it.

1:20:16He's got some strong opinions on other things. Which is really unhelpful. And I really found that a shame about the book because it detracted from the value. Me too. I haven't yet read Broken Money, and I literally have just downloaded it. Listen to Audible. I'll do that for you because I'm an entrepreneur. You'll like it. I will. It's just interesting outside of the Bitcoins. Yeah, totally. That's interesting. And I think that's... I don't know which is better. Would you do broken money before Bitcoin Standard? Sounds like you would. Yes. Okay. So I'm going to do that. But yeah, Bitcoin Standard, if you...

1:20:44I read it critically. I liked half of it. I tolerated a quarter of it. And I thought the other quarter was just a waste of space and time. And frankly, detracted from the idea. Which I can expect something we've talked about before. We might keep going. But I've said before, sound money doesn't get talked about without Bitcoin. Yeah. But Bitcoin is a distraction from sound money. Yeah. And that kind of the oxymoron or the kind of natural tension is there by definition just because of the way it needs to work. We could never have sell money before Bitcoin. That's sort of like it was a theoretical construct.

1:21:16I mean, we had gold or some sort of sound money. But yes. But the concept is now being talked about because there is a popular viable option. We can actually do it now. Right, exactly. We couldn't do it before. We couldn't stream Netflix before 2002, right? So no one's talking about sell money without Bitcoin being around. The problem is, as you say, you know, come for the money, save the revolution. Because Bitcoin is so, what's the word? It's polarizing. And maybe not even for the right reasons, but it just is. Yeah, I want to make a comment on that. So you don't have sell money conversation without Bitcoin.

1:21:48But if you get caught in Bitcoin, so I would agree with you. I'm not a Bitcoin ball. I'm, you know, I'm certainly not a bear at all. Bitcoin curious, let's call you. Thank you. I'm not going to, no, no. No, I'm self-disciplined, Ram. I know when not to say a thing. Okay, good for you. You're a better man than me.

1:22:10Yeah, no, no. Anyway, but what I have, to your point, the journey you've taken me on is that idea of the sound money conversation. And I think that's the really useful one. So I would double underline what you said, which is if you're not only about Bitcoin, start with money. Again, I'm not a Bitcoin expert. You forgot more about Bitcoin than I know. But start with the money. understand what problems it's trying to solve. Or sorry, what problems exist, how you might solve those problems. Here's the other thing. All money is a technology, right? Yeah, exactly. Before Bitcoin, it was still a tech.

1:22:43It is and always has been a technology. Lowercase T in the way that technology should be. We say tech is just computers. No, it's not. Technology is a thing that lets us step up. A hammer is a technology. Right, exactly, exactly. Wheel. One thing, so I think that's absolutely right. I think my issue with Bitcoin has always been whether or not it will be adopted. Not always. That's the bottom line. Exactly. Same with me. When you want to boil it all down, will it continue to see increasing adoption? If the answer is no, stay a mile away. If the answer is yes, then do the opposite. And if you don't like me, you're kind of happy to move in either direction, depending on what the evidence shows you.

1:23:20Do it when you're ready. Yeah. So, Simon, I guess my recommendation, Ram may disagree, that's cool. My recommendation is don't actually try and learn about Bitcoin, at least not yet. Yeah. Learn about the money thing because the question of whether a Bitcoin is useful – because the other thing is Bitcoin can succeed for reasons that aren't actually about the same money, right? It can be just the case that – we were talking about snowballs. We were talking about Friday, I think it was. If people are chasing gold, we were talking about chasing gold because gold is going up so everyone chases it.

1:23:47That might be enough. Is gold the key asset because it was the best asset? Maybe. is gold the best asset the key asset because people liked it other people liked it and it got to a level where it was just universally accepted regardless of its drawbacks maybe so there's two ways Bitcoin wins social constructs yeah exactly and so maybe Bitcoin wins because it's objectively better and I'm not saying it's not let's say it is maybe that's why it wins or maybe it wins despite that and the fact that it's objectively is lucky because we all just liked it because we all like gold in the same ways and so rather than trying to learn I mean if you learn about Bitcoin I think you absolutely should you owe it to yourself anyway because if it's right or wrong.

1:24:23That's my point, right? Yes, exactly. If you want to hate it, hate it. But what gets me going is someone who goes, and that's why I had to be a bit mean to Michelle Bullock. I don't know anything about it, but I know it sucks. I don't like it. It's like, you're an idiot. Fool, and that don't be on any topic. You can't start a sentence in that way and then expect anyone to take it. So be critical of Bitcoin. Hate it all you like, but just inform yourself, then decide to hate it. I've never watched Aussie Rules, but I hate the game. Yeah, like, what? I've never seen a game, but I just know it's dumb.

1:24:51I hate it. Yeah. It's probably definitely what I'm used to. So therefore it must be bad. Yeah. Now if someone says, I just like it because of this, this, this and this, fair enough. Fair enough. Can I, one point, I think you said something there that is really valuable, which is, it is divisive. And the reason it's divisive, I think, is that when this thing first kicked off, it was the instant, it was the weirdo part of corner of the internet that first grogbed. it right then the libertarians got it right and then like yeah yeah you know it's sort of like and then and then these it it feels like there was an ownership taken of it and it's like it became politicized when it's just neutral money it's got no politics yeah right it's got it's got all the politics of of algebra like algebra is apolitical because it's got nothing to do with that money is apolitical as well, but various groups have taken control of the narrative.

1:25:52The best example at the moment is with Trump because the Trump administration has been very favourable towards quote-unquote crypto and Bitcoin, and he launched his own meme coin. So a whole bunch of people on the left are like, if Trump, which is normally a really good heuristic, right? If Trump likes it, it must be bad. It's like, I can get behind that as a heuristic, honestly. The exception that proves the rule, right? When I've been proselytizing about it, people go, oh, yeah, but Trump likes it. And so I hate Trump, and Trump likes Bitcoin, therefore I hate Bitcoin. And I would just say don't let a particular group or person who happens to like it.

1:26:34You know, there are mass murderers out there that love calculus, that use the internet. I tell you what, you know, the worst scumbags and villains in society use the Australian dollar. Yeah, that's right. And drink Coke and take on the transport. You know, and we don't throw these technologies out because one idiot happens to like it. And I found it interesting talking to you over the years because I've been throwing this stuff at you forever. And it was the sound money thing that kind of more stuck for you. Yeah, yeah. And it's an interesting phenomena that also gets talked about is that everyone has their own path into it because it depends on what resonates for you.

1:27:16So the friend I'm actually going to see this weekend, he works for one of the unions. I won't dox him, but bleeding heart lefty, like social. How are we friends? I don't know how we're friends. But he's one of my longest and dearest friends. He's trying to convert you probably. I'm trying to convert him. We just sit around. You're on this mission too. We're trying to convert each other. The funny thing is we share the same goals, right? It's just like the means. Yeah, right. That's the real - That's your point too. Like we're both for equality and a better life and a better world. I just think he's fundamentally flawed in his approach.

1:27:49But for ages, he wouldn't go near it. And for him, it was like, I get everything you say, but it's bad for the environment. And so that was the blocker for him. And so I would never get him over the line. So then I sent him a bunch of stuff. It's actually, do you realize that once you factor in all the externalities, it's actually massively positive for the environment, which is what? Let's not go down that route. But yeah, actually, turns out, right? Turns out it's actually very positive for the environment. And he didn't believe me, which is good because he's an independent thinker. I sent him a whole bunch of material, like peer-reviewed published papers from Harvard and other places.

1:28:24And he went, holy poo, I'm in. And he just set up a self-managed super fund and put a big chunk of it to his dick. And my point is, is that anyone, like, we'll all have our things that resonate for us. And because it's such a multifaceted thing, you'll find it. There'll be something in it, I bet, that will, I'm not saying this because you must find something that resonates with you. You know, it's like the dealer trying to push their way just to taste. The first day, have a little taste of this. And as I said to you, was it this pod or Fridays? I said, you know, you come for the money and you stay for the revolution, which I just love that.

1:28:58It's a nice line. Because for me, this is an insight into my drivers. Like, I want to make some money. How pathetic is that? But that's true. He saves the revolution. I want to make some money. And actually, where I started with it was, it was just like, it just kept coming. I was like, I have to kill this thing. And in trying to disprove it, I ironically kind of proved it to myself. And now I'm an all-in laser-eyed sort of maxi. But for me, it was the money. I want to, I want to, I'm an investor. I want to find something that's going to go up. And that was it. But then in all cases, the same with my mate, same with you when you get there, and you will.

1:29:41We all do. We all get the price that we deserve. It will be because the door was cracked open a little bit. And you start going, as you start exploring it in good faith, you just rewire your brain and you'll come out the other side going, everything is a lie. Oh, my God. But I am now for the first time seeing reality as it is. The showers have fallen from my eyes. You know? The road to Damascus is a hell of a place. It is. And it's one of the points that you hear come up again and again. And this doesn't encourage you just to at least look at it. Nothing will. But find for me an example out of the 8 billion people.

1:30:17There's not 8 billion people have got Bitcoin. I think the estimates are 2 % or 3 % adoption. of the however many hundred many million people who have sort of looked at it and adopted it in some way, shape or form. No one's ever said it changed their mind. In other words, it's a one-way door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it's very hard to see the door and it's very, very hard to walk through the door. But once you do, there's no example ever of someone going, yeah, it's not for me. Right. And that just tells you something, right? Even like a hard - It's a cult. It's a cult. It kind of is, right? It really is.

1:30:53I mean, I can't deny it. I mean, they're with love. But yeah, exactly. And I'll shut up. Sorry, mate. Sorry. One more thing. But as you know, I've been to a bunch of Bitcoin conferences, right? Yeah. I'm really honored to be there. Please have me back. I love it. But I - I think you all have hotly contested debate about the pros and cons of Bitcoin, I imagine. Well, you find no more disagreement than within the church. I was - Okay, I was - And this is true of all groups. If you want to look at the Austrian economists, right? massive long-running debates. Okay, cool. Conflicts. Take the Keynesians, you know.

1:31:26Take the – we talk about democracy and all of its various flavors. Like this is how you should do democracy. This is how you should do state-based socialized medicine or whatever. It's like whenever you're inside the tent, the debates are often more strong than on the outside. And I have been to a bunch of conferences and come back and the first thing I said to my wife is, my God, there's some real nutbags in Bitcoin. point like they do not we are not the same we agree on this one thing and on all these others we fundamentally disagree and and that's not just to try and position myself as something i think they would say the same within within their context as well because money is just such it's all pervasive it is it's going to touch us all in different ways and it's all going to mean different things and just because we agree on the niger of sound money does that mean i have to also agree with you politically and that I have to eat a steak and lift weights and be small government and like none of those things are true but when you go onto Twitter and you start looking at Bitcoin Twitter I have to be all about the trad wife scene and it's all this masculine BS you know frankly a company did a big survey recently and this really one of the real surprising findings of it was actually politically Bitcoin is a split down the middle Democrat and Republic in the US and you would very much assume it was on the right yeah yeah that's what the noise is yeah the lefties are just far less vocal about it anyway this is you started by saying this is going to be a short one no it's not I thought there'd be I thought there'd be three things there'd be a book a YouTube video it never is it never is it's so fascinating you're going to need to work on your beginners introduction resources that's my task for you it's it's a known problem though it's not just me everyone who's in there like where do I and so my my answer now is just like well what why are you interested in yeah I know it's like that because now if I can get a bit of an idea as to what you find interesting then I can give you stuff that's going to resonate for you and then you can be a full-cut carrying member of the cult I think it sounds like a cult member saying how can I get them across the line what is a tick in the armour nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has gone oh all the cliches all the slogans throw me a gradually and suddenly and we're done Fix the money, fix the world.

1:33:42How about that one? I brought it on myself. Have a great weekend. Until Friday. Fool on. Cheers. The Motley Fool and people appearing in this program may have positions in the companies mentioned. General advice only. Please speak to your financial professional to understand how it may pertain to your situation. Subscribe to the free newsletter at fool.com.au forward slash listener. The Motley Fool operates under Financial Services License 400691.