Laurence Bendjenad - Creative Director of Lonsdale.

0:08Claire:Welcome to My Life in Design, brought to you by the DBA and design-focused PR agency, Red Setter. I'm Claire Blythe, co-founder of Red Setter. In this series, I'll be speaking to more people who are shaping the world of design, finding out how they discovered that design was a thing you could base a career around, and how they got to where they are today. This week, I'm here with Laurence Benjenad, Creative Director of Lonsdale, Paris. She specializes in consumer branding and packaging and has led design teams at some of the world's top agencies. She's won various awards, including GDUSA and Grand Prix Strategy.

0:47Claire:She has judged at the Fab Awards, Creative Pool and Pack Global and worked on brands such as L 'Oreal, Desperados for Heideken, Birkenstock, Philadelphia Cream Cheese, Lipton Rice Tea. Laurence, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Claire. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for coming over from Paris today. I'm very happy to be here with you. Can we start right at the beginning of your journey? When you were a child, did you realise that design was something you could base a career around? No, I had no clue. Actually, when I was a kid, I was loving everything that was around crafting.

1:26I was doing painting. I was drawing. I was even like sewing I was doing all that stuff about crafting I loved that and I study law

1:37Claire:which has nothing to do law wow okay so did you do did you study art or anything graphics or anything nothing or not that's interesting no I started by law and at school I was like come on I can't do that. This is not me. I was feeling totally disconnected with the law, the element, the way you were studying, the fact that you were not in contact with texture, material, the creative part of me. So why law? What made you do that in the first place? There's this parental involvement. It is a little bit, you know, it's like, oh, it's very interesting. You should do that. There's a lot of lawyers in my office and it sounds very cool okay I'm gonna study law mom it sounds like a safe job at the end of it you'll earn enough money there's a yeah yeah absolutely right so then I said to my parents okay I can't do that anymore and my dad said fine there's no worry no issue but you have to find the right one now yeah so did you do a year of law yeah almost almost a year almost a year yeah and then I stopped I worked a little bit on a jewelry shop and then I start to search a school or what can I do around creativity art crafting painting I was searching for that and then I found a friend's school that was about design and then I've checked a little bit what they were doing what was the program and I was like that is me brilliant and I said to my parents this is what I want to do and And that was exactly the first time I realized there is jobs around creation and design that is not about art.

3:20Yeah. Which was making a lot of difference for me and my parents at this time.

3:25Claire:Yes. OK. So from a parental point of view, that must have seemed like a safer career that you've actually got a job at the end of it than the worry of painless artist territory. Yes. Yeah, definitely. and also they were feeling that it was like a safer choice but i'm not sure they had a really good understanding of what it means of what of all the job you can do after that but they were like trusting me and say okay go ahead and we'll see that's amazing that's great and then lots of parents wouldn't be so quite trusty and supportive and helping so it's cool that they are very open minded yeah yeah i was lucky so i assume at this point you didn't have a portfolio no so how did you get onto the course how did you they were they actually were interviewing new students and they asked us we had like a half a day there and we had to prove ourselves do stuff they were like giving us like exercise about draw me something on the paper and you give the drawing and you're like okay is it right or wrong and she was saying to me okay the space is good the coloring is good so I believe they were like evaluating the sensibility the ah so actually at the time in the interview yeah thing that you express yourself a bit correct exactly which was interesting in a way because I think it's better than giving a portfolio where you will have stuff you will spend like months or days to do it it's interesting but to interview like also the motivation of new students I believe it was an interesting way of choosing them yeah definitely yeah and then I started so it's in Paris it was in Paris Paris center yes oh fantastic that must have been a lot of fun yeah it was a lot of fun actually it was for me it was amazing you start school and you start to learn and you what you believe will be your job after that and it's all about fun creation yeah playing with like creativity at different level and it's amazing yeah I loved those years yeah yeah yeah so were you there for was it two or three days it was actually three years at the end of the third year we were doing like an internship we had to find a company and do an internship and I chose a small company but that was working a lot with L 'Oreal at that time was a cosmetic one and I chose that to do my internship I still had like two years of studying after that that was I was supposed to do those two years how long did the internship last for it was several months I believe it was like three to six months it was several months yes that's interesting so we yeah we were doing that and then you go back to school and do your stuff but at the end of the internship they actually offer me a position wow so I stopped school that's brilliant yeah yeah that was very very interesting actually so I was studying graphic art but I was studying product design oh okay so I was working like on product like vacuum cleaner so building the actual vacuum cleaner not the brand for the not the brand for it I was doing like really like structural design product design I was working a little bit on graphic because when you are in those type of school you are touching a bit of everything but my specialization was about product design and structural design yeah so i was working on shape of the product and this cosmetic company they were searching for an intern to work with them because they did not have this capacity in the office i was like oh that's good to have an intern she might like do sketches about maybe perfume bottles or work with us and stuff like that and i started that and actually they had a pitch and they say okay we can't do it unless you are working on it because you're the only one who is doing like three-dimensional stuff like that and it was a limited edition box for Dom Perignon the champagne that's a very good place to start right that was amazing and they say okay can you work on that do you have ideas I was like okay I'm gonna work on it and I I remember I I chose to work in a really specific way I decided to work the way I wanted I draw all the sketches I remember on black paper so I took black paper and I wrote on white on this and it I believe it felt very crafty yeah and also very premium which I believe made the difference at the time and we won the pitch so we won the pitch so I there was like maybe they were like okay there's something to do there so they offer me a position and I had to again to go back to my parents and say okay I believe I will learn more if I'm if I start working now then if I'm going back to school for two years it's better to learn directly with the people who are working in my field how did your parents take that they say you go girl excellent I love that there's no way my parents for the second it's a ridiculous finish of course yeah they say you you go girl that's great you have a job and i believe also this was this generation of parents which were like reassuring of you have a job yes true and yeah true you have a job yeah you're working on and it's a job right absolutely so what was the agency called you know it's a very very french name it's called tonnerre de brest which is a french expression from britney yeah and it's and it's something that where you say when it's not a lot happened around so you said tonnerre de brest and basically they they at the time they were creating a lot of strong brand for l 'oreal like fructis which is a big brand today and they were the creators of that so that was a great company it's closed now but it was a small one and what was interesting for me it was I was doing everything when you start in a small company you do your graphic work or your three dimension work whatever but you also prepare your boards you do the mock-up yeah you cut your boards you you give them to the client you go to present the creation to your client you talk to the client Yeah.

9:57You do the final artworks, not only the creative part. You do everything. So it was tough. I did a lot of mistakes, but I learned a lot because basically I learned everything from concept to the artwork at the end. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yes, I spent five years there, which is quite a lot to start as a junior designer. And what was interesting also is that I start as a structural designer. But then because it's small, they would give me tasks about graphic stuff or more about concept. And then I was starting to mood board, to conceptualize and step by step, because also there's always less of structural design projects.

10:43than graphic design project in global companies. I was doing more and more of graphic concept, moods, storytelling, et cetera. And then step by step, I start to move away a little bit from structure design to go more into the graphic design.

11:01Claire:Oh, okay. So the two together are perfect, aren't they? Especially in CPG or anything. Definitely. It's very interesting. Consumer package cards I was trying not to use. Yeah. Food and stuff in supermarkets. All that kind of. Correct, like consumer goods. Consumer goods. Consumer goods, correct. Yeah, that's very interesting to have the ability to consider both when you are designing. And more than that, what was very interesting is that even now, today, I'm not the best graphic designer. I know that, even from my team, etc. But I'm very good at conceptualizing and telling a story because as I was not a graphic designer, I was a structural designer.

11:45I had to find ways of expressing ideas and concepts prior to find a graphic solution.

11:55Claire:Let's talk a little bit about that. Certainly, the young people listening to the podcast, what exactly do you mean by conceptualise? What's the difference between being a good graphic designer and being great at conceptualising? Of course, yeah. There's a difference when you are designing. I believe the best design out there are the ones who have a strong concept, have a big idea. Yes. You are communicating something strong to the consumer, to the user, to the people out there. And this is very strong. And the way it's crafted, the way it's executed must be perfect to translate the ideas. because a good idea that is not translated well it's not working at all yeah but if there's no idea then you forget it it's not really strong on the ideas yeah yeah what is the concept what what are you saying there what's the story and the detail of exactly what it looks like on yeah actually the end project you might be able to get a better people to yeah yeah because there's good graphic designer out there and they are very good at that and it's great to work with them and also i believe that the design you are people remember are the one with a good idea definitely and from one idea you can do several executions also you can have one strong idea and then have people executing it in a beautiful way but in a different way so that's why i was stronger at delivering ideas concept mood boarding finding story telling the story in my own way and then I'm also a graphic designer I can work on that but my strength is not there yeah I think that's interesting again isn't it just knowing where your strengths are and knowing you can work in a team and with different people and produce amazing stuff and as I believe as designer we have to step back and think about what am I strong at yeah and I think it's not a weakness to understand that you are not the best at typography yes at logotyping it's it's okay because you are strong at something else maybe it's a weakness not to realize that agree yeah and i see that in teams i can see that in people i've worked with but the best ones were the ones who knew what they were strong at yeah and they will work on it and also they will sell it in a way to the other people they are working it they will work that way and and it's okay to have a team with a strong in typography guy also another one that is super strong at concept at mood board and then if you mix them together it's perfect yeah definitely but you have to step back think about what you can do what you are doing the best and it takes time sometimes yeah absolutely i think it's very interesting about having internships and you're studying and when you're at university that's what I keep hearing time after time, make someone ready once they've qualified, once they've finished.

14:52Claire:That's what makes the difference for people to actually be taken on. Do you find that today at Lonsdale, if someone's got experience, it rises them up a bit? Yeah, yeah. We can see that. I also love the fact that we are working a lot with the interns at Lonsdale. I love to have them with me and to I'm finding their sweet spot yeah I believe I kept that from my experience yeah I love to find what is their sweet spot and what can I do with them what project can I give to them to ensure also because it's giving you confidence yeah and when you feel confident you do better yeah definitely for the young that's really good do you take on many interns then year by year yeah yeah yeah we take every year we take interns that's very important for us they are junior we can train them we learn from them i think that's the really important thing that we sometimes people don't realize it's not just you giving your time no to them it's yeah well you get back we learned we learned from junior designer we learned from interns yeah because they also in tech they are super strong sometimes they have skills we don't have yeah Come on, we studied 25 years ago.

16:08They know new stuff we don't know about. They are very good with AI, which is very interesting for us. And also they have that fresh perspective on things. And something interesting with the interns of that world at the moment, they are very multidisciplinary, which is very interesting for me. I love that part.

16:30Claire:Yeah. So that's particularly appealing if someone's just got skills and lots of different... Yeah. and i love people who have passion yes in something whatever boat whatever seeing i i think there's always something interesting to grab from that yeah definitely i believe so back to your sort of career path what did you do so five years yeah and then why did you leave where did you go what's the what's the next step basically another great company which was called cba offered me a yeah offer me a job in paris which was interesting because here it was all about graphic design and i was very into cosmetic world from my first experience and they say okay here we are doing fmcg global you might do cosmetic but you will do tea you will do bread you will do food yeah and we want you there because you have that specific cosmetic style that could be interesting to bring in the FMCG world yeah the food and bev world so they offered me that position which was great at that time CBA was organized by team they had all those little teams so CBA is the other end of the scale really isn't it was it quite big at the time yeah it was it was already a big one yeah okay it was already big and it was very different but also very interesting and because they had that teams you you had that that small agency within your team because you have like a full team with someone that was more dedicated to apt work there was senior junior it was like the perfect mix in each team which was great and i learned a lot there i learned so much because i was coming from cosmetic working another way and then i went into that big company very organized more structured yeah the schedule the project also the big brands of the world the nestle of the world etc yeah and i had to got immersed in that and also it was interesting because the branding level the level of the project were higher it was different because when you are working with big brand of the world in fmcg you are in contact with like very high-end marketing people strategy the level of design it's demanding so it's it's more difficult so it's that sort of it's more global and it's expressions you've got different region yeah yes the challenges are more like tough difficult you have to address like different like country design that will be adapted to different country you have to build branding system that will be adapted to different sub brands there's the way of thinking to the brand design of a role felt way like broader more difficult for me yeah so I learned a lot yeah definitely that's quite a good combination isn't it where you've got a small agency where you have to do everything I think it's great to do both I think it's great to do both and to also understand where you feel more comfortable in and I was very comfortable in big organization yeah I realized that yes I like that a lot and at CBA I had the opportunity to grow which was very interesting and also I feel really lucky to have been worked in that company because I came as a designer and then I end up as a creative director at the end seven years after I was a creative director so that was very interesting for me yeah and also it's CBA that offered me something in my career that changed my life which was really a turning point that they offered me to do like this exchange with their office in San Francisco.

20:17Claire:Ah okay so that's quite a turning point and that's where the US diagram is it? Yes. Excellent. So I went there for a few months. How did that feel? So you've only ever lived in Paris so far I imagine traveled a bit but then suddenly yeah and to live in San Francisco and say bye to everyone like being nine hour difference from my friends and family got a little flat there in a city I didn't even wow so that was big but it went very smoothly I felt very lucky the team there was amazing yeah really amazing I made friends there didn't feel culturally the same like as in not at all was it really different is it very different yeah it was opposite Paris is no which is amazing beautiful but even within cba was it just quite different culturally it was another world yeah you know even global company they have their office and it's part of the same global culture but locally there's always something like a footprint yeah of the local life the spirit the way of working and in the u.s from france total opposite very different very different there was also something that I discovered there in San Francisco they had a strong connection between the strategy and the design oh okay so that was quite different from yeah yeah yeah yeah at that time in France there was like the strategic team and then the design team etc but there it was like a hand-in-hand way of working the office in San Francisco was way smaller than the one in Paris and then you will build concept with a strategic girl and she will be seated right next to you right so I was like okay so she's doing the concept and and that was very different yeah the level of crafting was also very good and I start to feel and understand that there was also a style yeah in California that was different there was a vibe in the graphic way of crafting stuff that was very different from Paris was it easy to adapt did you have to adapt I did not because they were actually interested by the fact that I will bring another way.

22:31I have like maybe there was two design route from a guy and then two from me. And then it was complementary because I had another way of exploring and working, which felt interesting at that time. Yes. So that was a good, good experience. It was very sweet. The people were very warm and welcoming with me. so I believe it helps me a lot to adapt feel confident connected to them and I again I learned a lot yeah but it was my first step in the U.S.

23:01Claire:market what was next after that was that the Dragon Rouge yes it was after seven years at CBA being a creative director leading the team someone called me and say okay we have a studio in Paris we are a big company in Paris but we also have a studio in new york and we would love to have a french creative director because we don't want to lose the connection between paris and new york yeah we want to have a strong family feel culture yeah so we would love to bring our french culture there and so they knew that i had work in san francisco so i already know it'll be the market i know how to speak english i know how to adapt also to other culture which is really important definitely so I said okay and a few months after that I put all my stuff in a boat all my furniture were in a boat and then I arrived in New York wow yeah that must have been so you so you didn't go back to Paris in between you just went straight to New York no I did I stopped in Paris for a few months and then I yeah okay New york how was that because i mean new york west coast to east coast is very different isn't it how is it culturally did you find that i challenge at all i find the way of working was interesting and i found back connection with what i knew from california the strategy yeah the way of working but it was a shock for me as a french i'm not gonna lie yeah yeah it was a shock the culture is different it is really different isn't it it is it's a big country so it's it's very seemed to be the same it's very different and also there was something for me that really struck me the designers themselves they felt more strategically minded more confident you can tell that they were raised like people who know how to present their work how to show the value of what they do etc it's a culture yes it's not the same in french yeah okay we are raised to be humble yeah in france yes absolutely but it's not good as as a designer yeah as a designer you have to know how to showcase your work your personality and show that you are doing the best for your client.

25:33Yeah. And the Americans, they were super strong at that.

25:36Claire:Yeah. I had to recruit the team there and also to build a team. So that was very interesting because I had to recruit American graphic designers, strategists, people like that to work with me. Yeah. So building the team there, I met a lot of people and it was like crazy. It was, I felt almost, I was the creative director there and I was impressed by them. Yeah. It's like, okay. Wow. Wow. I was like, wow, okay. okay yeah so that was a lot but it felt very interesting for me and I also I realized that you have to adapt I had to understand the culture being very quick yeah because you work with the team you are the leader so you have to adapt understand and make everything work together yeah and that was a good big challenge but it felt very interesting for me definitely how long were you there for two years and a half two and a half years yeah yeah wow that's an amazing experience though yeah two years and a half is enough to have your life there yeah yeah you have everything now was everything at that time was in new york so you felt like you're part of the city of the country you live there your bank is there your life so you you do your grocery shopping your stuff so you start to immerse yourself in the culture absolutely enough to understand better the consumer the clients the way of working etc yeah so that that was very interesting for me yeah and also I learned a lot about also the design the graphic design the way the brand were working etc even though I was working on global brand but also on local brands and for me I learned a lot about how to manage how to use your design skills to different culture yeah yeah absolutely did you find even the design differed between San Francisco and New York that could design styles yes because even in San Francisco I was working on a California very Californian vibe I was working in Sausalito by the sea so imagine being in New York and it was so different completely different yeah completely different and also the sizing was different because in san francisco it was a smaller it was part of cba but smaller and then was in dragon rouge in new york which was a little bigger and we also had the chance to work on bigger projects yeah so for big company like mondelis at the time etc so the challenge were different the client i would say expectations were different and there was something about being bolder stronger more conceptual in new york yeah interesting in california that was way more about crafting it was more like niche project yeah little brands yeah etc which was interesting yeah of course very interesting for the crafting for the the design details etc but in new york it was way more impactful and bold i felt yeah yeah yeah see that and then what was after that so two and a half years yeah in new york then going back to france i knew within within dragon rouge still yeah i went back in dragon rouge for a bit was there to be back it was good to be back but i believe dragon rouge paris was not new york and for me the experience was has been made in new york and i wanted to move and do something different yeah and then i made lonsdale that's the moment I met Lonsdale and the opportunity was very interesting because here it was even a bigger team size different type of projects what kind of stuff it was still FMCG but there was also smaller brands it was a bigger mix okay of smaller and big very big clients yeah which felt very interesting there was also something important for me is that I was recruited to work on international brands so I was based in Paris but I will be the one who was working on international brand due to my experience yeah so that was very interesting for me so did you travel a lot I did I traveled a lot I still try I'm still traveling a lot yeah but it's okay because I believe you can't work for other country without going there yeah internet is not enough you have to go there so i'm okay to travel to get immersed to feel to understand how do you shop yeah how do you touch the product how people are consuming the product it's very important and it creates a difference for me tell me about that then tell me about sort of more your role today where do you travel to and how does that influence it yeah so today well i'm leading a big creative team there's like 15 people there i'm working on as i said so local and global project we are working at lonsdale and i'm working for different countries from middle east region to europe but Eastern Europe.

30:47It can also be North Africa. I'm also working sometimes for a US project. I just finished a US project there a few days ago. So I'm working for different areas and I have to go there.

31:02Claire:For example, for the Middle East region, I've been there like five times. I spent days there. I even embraced the local culture. Yeah. Put my abaya on. Have you? Wow. Oh yeah, Yeah, we have to get, yeah, you have to feel like you don't have to anymore in Saudi Arabia, for example. But four years ago, we had to. So I put my buyer on and I've been to the restaurant. I've been to the big grocery store, but also the smaller one where the families are going to see how they shop, what they do. I'm very familiar with the culture. Yeah. And now when I'm talking to a client there, I know what they are talking about.

31:41Yeah. I know the culture. I know how moms shop. What is the specificity of the new generation there? The differences between the traditional part and the more like, I would say, younger part, which were more like cosmopolitan, etc.

31:56Claire:Yeah. So it's very important for me. That's a big part of my role today. It's to design for culture. I did a talk in my office about that because I want people to understand that if you don't develop the empathy for the other people, for the consumer, you don't do good design. Yeah, you just can't. You need to put your head in that space. Yeah. You can't do that without having a partner. And it's more than just reading a PowerPoint slide about what is our target group. it's more than that you have to really develop your empathy because the design we are doing is not only for shelf it's for people in their house yeah so how the people in middle east are consuming orange juice not the same than us it's at the center of their dinner table is it yeah so what's the difference that's like something like that it's not breakfast it's no no it's at the center of their dinner table so you don't want to do an ugly bottle yeah because you have something you will have your family around the table you want something nice and easy to share etc so there are stuff about usage about design about storytelling that has to be understood of course and also it's a little bit difficult to explain for me but very important you as a designer you will not be always satisfied by the beauty of your design that's why i'm saying i love to say I'm not designing for awards.

33:23I'm designing for culture. Yeah. I would love to, because I love the awards. That's amazing. But when you are designing for culture, you have to adapt your design because people, for example, in the Middle East, they like very first degree story. They want to understand. It's not about concept. It's about understanding what I'm purchasing. So you have to know that you design for them and then for them, it's beautiful. But it's.

33:49Claire:Yeah. so you might think if i made it look like this then dnad might be really appealing but i wouldn't work commercially in the same way so that's yeah design like this yes okay interesting yeah that's you've got to haven't you can't i know some people do just design for awards but you can't you design commercial realities really commercial reality and you know also in france we are doing very different design than well our consumer are not like educated graphically like they are in the uk okay it's so interesting isn't it it's so close yet different it's so close but it's so different i was going into waitrose like a few hours ago and i was like that's different yeah that's different bolder more impactful definitely we are more into the details our consumer their needs is different visually yeah and so we have to adapt to that it's less vibrant and crazy sexy for a designer yeah but it it's it resonates with the consumer waitrose cooks ingredients range or something like that that's really vibrant and i love the design it's amazing do you think it just wouldn't work commercially in the same way in france no it would it would work in paris paris center yeah but in france which is a big country yes in france it would not work because people would think oh it's it looks fancy i don't want fancy i want more expensive and then it looks more expensive it looks fancy is it is it like authentic yeah for example we are a country of food and yeah in france right so authenticity connection to people it works stronger than like stylish stuff that will work very well in paris center but paris it's small yeah compared to the other and but so we are used to that yeah we know how to work with consumer in france and it's of course in the other country also but we have to we have a very specific way of designing for that and i believe it creates a different way of crafting elements yeah can we talk about the design industry then and like do you feel like at lonsdale do you feel part of it globally do you feel how does it work with you sort of being in paris do you have sort of like a local design scene and then yeah global one yeah yeah we have a local design but we are big in paris right we are almost 180 180 180 in paris so we are big what is amazing there which i've never seen that in the any other company i've worked in we have all the design skills within the same house what i mean there is that there is the my team the consumer and branding team but we also have the architect we have the corporate designer there interesting we also have our full studio that is the make my day team which has the ability to do films motion production yeah live podcast etc so tv advertising yeah i'm like yeah correct we also do brand activation we have our specialists there so there is something that is amazing there for me is that no matter which design project we get we have the ability we have someone there who can do it if it's a retail architecture for a big group if it's a motion film for someone i have someone in my team that is doing graphic motion but there's also the video production we can work for a bank for cars for beauty and for spirit yeah so that's something that feels very different for me and for us come in the industry there's something very unique yeah and for us it's it's amazing because we see every day in the office in the different desk we see like different projects so I believe it's giving you a real 360 vision of what design is about globally yeah that's very interesting to work it it is yeah it is we do reviews we do yearly reviews and we do smaller reviews at the management level and you say oh okay we do that oh we do those beautiful videos for Guerlain that's amazing we we do a lot of beautiful stuff and it's touching every skills of the design part except fashion and advertising but graphic design branding design etc we do so that's very interesting for us absolutely the fact that we have a footprint in the u.s and in singapore is amazing also yes definitely yes it's great because there's even different skills they are very good in visual territory communication like that in new york so we can mix the skills and do stuff with the launch that us and in singapore they are very strong knowing their region yeah which is amazing because our clients are global and today i know that if i have a global project i can tap into the teams into singapore which we do often i have to tap into the teams and say okay i need your vision because i don't have the codes again the empathy the culture we were talking about i don't know the codes okay they are totally different a few weeks ago I was working with Michelle in New York and I said to her okay do you think my mood board for that US brand is a little bit cliche I had to add this question because someone else has done it and even me I was questioning it and she said okay you have to remove that that image yeah and that is super interesting because then yeah we can really have like that global vision and you have someone somewhere that can help you yeah which I love that yeah definitely yeah yeah I love that and also thanks to my global experience i'm the one who is like working with all the offices so i'm i'm very connected to the other creative director which yeah for me that's great because we can share experience work together very easily yeah so that's a big help definitely do you meet up with lots of other agencies in paris do you have sort of events where you all get together as well or not that much usually we meet each other at like awards ceremony like we it's the time where you're seeing all your friends from the other company and it's interesting because you learn from the from the market from the industry what's new what's working how are you doing with ai which is the big topic for now right always yeah so we are talking about that etc but i think it's missing like something that will regroup all the agency like the people not as competitors yeah absolutely just getting people together and right we just set something up yeah can i ask you sort of can i ask you as a final question kind of your tips for genius and yeah so people starting out today trying to get into the industry beyond design skills what would you recommend how to stand out how to stand out i would say be curious and i do that too when i have an intern you are in your the designers the people you're going to get connected to, they will be in their routine.

41:04You have as an intern, as a young designer to come to them and say, I'm available. I want to come in the presentation with you. I will be off, but I will be there. Oh, I see that you are doing some sketches. Can I sit with you a few minutes and do a sketch? Yes. The interns I loved are the ones who are doing that. I have one with me. I forget because I'm in my routine. I have my schedule. I do my meeting. And sometimes it's just giving me like, hey, Laurence, can I come with you? Can I see what you're doing? I'm available. And it's like, okay, of course. The people will never say no to you. That's what I want to say to them.

41:45They will never say no. Yeah. But they will feel if you are too like toned down, if you're not there, they will feel it. So be there. Ask. No one will say no. They are just forgetting because they have a lot to go on. they so go in and put headphones on and no isolate yourself and i will give you one task but ask for another one come to see okay did i do well can i do something else yeah really push yeah push the doors and people will be happy we all love that yeah definitely go go ahead yeah

42:19Claire:i think that's very nice thank you so much thank you claire great podcast thank you for coming over thank you so much was happy Thank you.