Rejane Dal Bello, founder of Studio Dal Bello, Live at D&AD

25:35Claire Blyth:the guardian oh yeah that was incredible photo my god yeah i don't know a photo of it in the no it's a shame uh you can uh pass around later with the book but i i was in a pro brexit protest I designed Chris Nacello is my friend and Antoine Sundays in a studio. We designed this poster and we wanted to go everybody protest. And we did that a few times. There was one protest that nobody was in was in July. You know, everybody was tired of protesting for Brexit already like disillusioned. It's not going to it's not going to help. Anyway, I went anyway. I went with my little poster by myself and then on the finishing line, I see a photographer and he took a snap of me.

26:25Claire Blyth:I did not know. The next day I was in every single newspaper, but not only in The Guardian. I was in The Times. I was everywhere. The description was the woman holding a poster. That was the tagline of myself. And it was very shocking, which then in The Guardian the next day, The main picture was me in the middle with a sea of flags of the U. Flags was very beautiful. And my poster in the middle, in the center. Very cool photo. But then on the thumbnails of all the homepage of the Guardian was, I'm going to say a big name here, you guys. Hold on. Alan Kitchen poster, that poster that Chris, I, and Antoine actually designed.

27:13Claire Blyth:next to it and they chose from the seas of posters you know two designers let's say of course uh when i'm next to uh alan kitchen i don't feel i'm a designer i'm just feeling intern but anyway let's let's let's take this for just for the sake of the conversation what is very interesting that they chose a clarity you know a poster that has a massive massive clarity to represent nobody knew us or we were the poster were not done by alan kitchen was not there he designed it but a lot of people was holding it and i thought it was very interesting to be represented they chose actually the two two designers that were i'm sure there was many more it makes a lot of sense but makes a lot of sense there's a clarity of message and being very clear and i think that's that's our core and our value for sure you know in the sea of people they actually saw the posters that from the people that has actually some the skills to make an image or make a message come across very strongly so of course it's the people who makes the difference but i think design again the same as before makes that difference yeah that way

28:22Rejane Dal Bello:yeah absolutely i love that it's a it's a perfect test of the whole thing isn't it yes yeah yeah can we move on to the next chapter of beauty is honesty tell me about that tell me about that how

28:35Claire Blyth:this is the shortest chapter guys because it's very hard to talk about beauty i mean this is uh i mean art beauty is big big big words and i the only way that i throughout like the career trying to understand what is beauty because everybody has their own perspective as well is in design especially in branding for me it's when i see branding that is trying something else than actually what it's supposed to be. And I think the beauty for me when I see a branding or a work is the honesty of what it translates. And that is based also in the thinking of many projects that I, when I'm working it and I'm being very honest, but not honest, like have an opinion honest, you know, trying to say what I think.

29:24Claire Blyth:It's not that. Honest based on the knowledge of what you need to actually, it's going to be helpful for them, but also in the alzheimer for example yeah i was going to mention that it's a project that i did and of course it's for alzheimer foundation it's very difficult it's about death you know it's also it's very there's no cure yet and i would do a disservice if i would not actually tell the truth in a way of the branding of course there's scholars as well because the foundation but the main image is literally telling what the disease does. And the main core asset of the brand is not shining away and trying to make us avoid the difficult subject, but actually go to it and then say, yeah, we need funding for this.

30:11Rejane Dal Bello:The main visual identity of it almost disappears, doesn't it? Disappears, but it's also black and white.

30:16Claire Blyth:And I remember when we were having the review with the client and everybody's like, no, they're not going to accept that. You know, like try to invert it. Or, you know, I said, no, let's, you know, that's very important to push it. And to, because especially they have to have funding and they have to fight for funding against other diseases like Alzheimer or Parkinson or cancer, which is terrifying to think about. Yeah. That they have to really stand out as a brand. Yeah. To be able to do that. But for me, the honesty that makes it beauty for me is the honesty and not avoid it and trying to go around it.

30:52Claire Blyth:so that's the only way that i can actually translate what beauty is yeah yeah i completely

30:59Rejane Dal Bello:agree let's talk about the next one which is design is religious without the religion

31:05Claire Blyth:oh that's a tough subject isn't it that's that's cancellation all over it's written over no uh this this is kind of hard to explain i think it's better reading it but um in a way how we design is very weird now like somebody pays us hopefully we pray for this as well that's why the religion no we get we get an agreement with the client that we're gonna actually find a solution for something that is very good and very surprising but there's as as the math mathematician was saying it really depends how we are doing how now how we are putting ourselves into that project to be able to find a good solution for that.

31:51Claire Blyth:So it's almost like the creative process. I don't know about you, but the creative process for me is terrifying every time. It doesn't get easier by getting older or by getting more experience. Actually, I know how deep and low and up and down it's going to go. So it's almost like trust the process. Yes, but sometimes the process doesn't work. So you have to keep going. It's almost having faith that you're going to find a solution, you know, after like having the knowledge, have the imagination, having the evaluation, knowledge, imagination. But you have to keep going. And that is almost like having a faith in a certain way that something is going to mix in and find out.

32:32Claire Blyth:Yeah, it's going to work in the end. I'm very much, I would suggest for people that love to read about creative process, there's a book called Effort Mastery from Kenny Werner. He's a jazz musician, which is fantastic. He talks about creative process, exactly about this kind of a magical moment and how difficult in the music, but it totally relates to any of us. And also Big Magic, which is from Elizabeth Gilbert, she talks about creativity and she has a famous TED talker as well that talks about this funny genius that comes in sometimes and gives us something and she makes that kind of a parallel, which is very lovely to think about it.

33:15Claire Blyth:But that's basically, it's like having that faith without having the religions in a way, like having, of course, not the dogmas. It's not about the dogmas, but it's almost like you have to have faith in yourself or in the project or in your abilities or in something that something's going to work along the way. Yeah. And it's, I don't know, maybe some of you here is nailed this, but if you do, please tell me. That did not work for me yet.

33:45Rejane Dal Bello:Yeah, I like it. Well, going on to that, actually. So the second to last chapter I wanted to talk about is simply liking creativity isn't living creatively. So tell me about that. How did that come about?

33:59Claire Blyth:This is a discussion that, I mean, everybody heard this before. Somebody goes to the museum, they look at Miro, Picasso, they look and say, I could have done this, you know, this kind of a story. Oh, then they, after a branding, oh, it's just this, you know. You know, is that it? You know, like you're disappointed because you've been like not eating or sleeping for millions of hours. You know, it's like and everybody claims that they are creative and they are. We are creative people. Humanity, we are creative. My brother as a dentist is super creative. But there's a difference between creativity and living a creative life.

34:38Claire Blyth:And that's where I think there's a difference between and we can actually understand and separate. right now it's not the same my mother has great ideas could have anybody can have a great idea but to make something work within the profession and to be wired to look at everything be curious and be curious about I don't know poetry movies or anything else to to get like a little bit of that society or that world to keep curious that's a very different life very very different life and and it's not the ones adjacent to it. And especially social media where people look at people's life and think it's easy or they think the project is easy or it's an easy thing to do or easy business to have.

35:26Claire Blyth:But the reality is very different, especially that you have to prove yourself every day and you have to really show your value. And it's a battle in that sense. But also it's not that you are just creative. you have a different wire to just being creative yeah it's very different life yeah i like i think

35:46Rejane Dal Bello:the mirror example is particularly interesting one even though it's more on the sort of art side of things just because he's one of those artists that people do look at and think anyone could have done that if you don't know about it or you don't but they didn't and they it's very evocative

36:00Claire Blyth:yeah i was i i thought about this as well that i went to the exhibition on the tape modern from Picasso 50 years of Picasso I don't know if you've seen this it's a fantastic exhibition and then on the script was saying that he was people were like doubting him at 50 years old if he was still if he still got it I'm like if they are doubting Picasso I mean seriously what is left for us I mean yeah I mean if it is doubting Picasso so it's very tough it's tough to have to prove yourself Yeah, to live a creative life and to keep coming with new things or the expectations of people or clients. It's very difficult.

36:41Claire Blyth:It's not an easy thing to keep up. And the technology and all these things that we have to keep up all the time. I mean, anybody else has any other opinion about it? That's why I wanted to do this because the book stays in the book. And to hear also what people think about the chapters and other perspectives, that's what's the best part of it.

37:00Rejane Dal Bello:well yeah let's touch on one last thing and then open it up but I thought this is particularly interesting um it's a final point I hate the word branding so I really like that because I think the word branding is just it's quite ironic for an industry that people don't quite and everyone uses it in a slightly different way people don't quite get it and it's it's hard to identify with so it almost needs to be rebranded and that kind of thing but it's like yeah tell me

37:28Claire Blyth:about why you hate the word i i'm i'm old as you can see i've been 30 years in this profession so i saw the differentiation between we did corporate identity with the visual design identity and then we did branding you know there was a little bit of but the shift between the visual identity system between branding i saw and of course this is not necessarily up to date anymore because i i have to say I do branding. Otherwise, my clients doesn't even understand what I do because the buzzword became the thing that became publicly. Everybody understands now. So yeah, I will use that naturally. But I didn't like the way it was used because I don't know if you experienced that.

38:11Claire Blyth:If you would say I do visual identity system, oh no, I do branding. It felt like you do something bigger than the other person. It almost elevated you or made a cast in the system within design. and I hate that, the feeling that you have somebody else. Elevation. That elevation, which we all know that we do the visual part of the branding, which is the visual identity system. Otherwise, you do sound design, you are the strategy, you are the PR. Branding is a bigger world than that. So, of course, yeah, great. You do things for branding big companies, but it still cannot diminish the one that does something for a visual entity system for theater or something else you know it's not as for apple but it is still the same value so don't i don't like the casting feeling that we're creating hierarchies inside of our own profession which should be and that's what i love the community of designers because we are all you know participating coming and seeing and we are very active and very curious about other perspectives, people from other, because we live with the differentiations.

39:22Claire Blyth:Yeah, absolutely. Because everybody would be the same, would be boring as hell. And then there's no way to create something new if you think the same way. So we have to come from different perspectives. Yeah, I like it. So that's, yes, that's, I hope, don't tell anybody that works with you.

39:39Rejane Dal Bello:You know, I jumped ahead of myself slightly. This is the one that we can end on. We all have a drawer of shame. I like this. Oh, why?

39:46Claire Blyth:I forgot about that. Sorry, I'm not saying it properly. This was the other one. Yeah. Now, that is very simple, isn't it? Who doesn't have a draw of shame? Do you know what that is? I love to remind people, guys, when you are like super cocky, remember, you have a draw of shame. And I say this to myself every day. You know, when I have a good day, I said, oh, I have a draw of shame. Yeah, don't worry about it. Keep it real. We've all done things that we're not necessarily super proud of. And the client or whatever can blame anybody, but still is there. So, I mean, I think it's a good reminder.

40:23Claire Blyth:We don't talk about that, right? We like to hide our flaws. We like to show in our lectures the best part of ours. But we all have that side. And it's a long career. It's very difficult. It's every client demands political, difficult evaluation that is bigger than design. You know, leading a studio, leading a project is wide, much further than the design problem itself. So many things get in the way. So every project that I have that finishes not in the drawer, I very much cherish and I very much I'm very happy for it and very proud. but also it's good to remind that I do have a drawer and that drawer is getting, yeah.

41:10Rejane Dal Bello:It's heavy. Maybe the next podcast can be seeing what's in the drawer. Yeah. Has anyone got any questions? Has anyone got any questions they'd like to ask for Jeanne? Just building a real drawer of shame. Like I've got a life of shame. I remember hearing a quote by Alan Fletcher, sort of pentagram and he said if you did one project a year that you're proud of then you're doing good and I always get told of that that you know not everything's killer and that's not always your fault there's other impact on that so always kind of yourself in the face going if Alan Kitchen has a world of shame then I'm okay.

41:55Rejane Dal Bello:wow if he's saying yeah yeah one project a year at that level that's really yeah that's good to hear isn't it people to young students to understand that yeah sort of the expectation of coming into the industry that every project you're going to do is going to be like a d &ad winning project yeah like and make you absolutely famous and it's not there's there's a lot of shame yeah everything you know but you just got to keep trying and you know keep showing up and be determined to make the next one better and the next one better sort of thing so yeah build a giant wardrobe

42:36Claire Blyth:a container we all have a container of shame but I reflect a bit about this which is very interesting I look up to actors when they do a movie and they have like after a year later they have to go and promote that film and sometimes the film is crap and they have to really like faceless and it's wonderful and I have a wonderful time like killing themselves but it is it is quite funny to see like when you get the script it's like you get the script of a briefing and you're like oh my god you're so hopeful this is gonna be the best thing ever and then and then it's like dating it's only after the third date you know you know like the first and the second is still very hopeful it's gonna be marriage the third one oh my god so then it's like that's that's the reality you have to live through it and then it's many many different things you almost like to have to you have to fight for idea literally yeah all along the way the design is the easiest part isn't it but yeah i have a lot of respecting respect for actors as well in that way like any other questions what would be

43:50Rejane Dal Bello:your biggest advice or encouragement when you are living a creative life and you know you're going through movements it's the biggest advice and encouragement when you really when you're living creative life yeah when things goes not goes well in a project or everywhere else well i think

44:13Claire Blyth:in that case it's not design is going to save you it's it's a family friends and you know having people to talk about because the best is to call your friend that goes through it i have many friends from my social work that doesn't understand design and what we go through so having community here talking about this like this even is understanding it's like a a for designers like sometimes i think you should have a dd you know i don't know what would be the equivalent for that but it's like the help kind of for this kind of thing I think that's the only thing you can go through is families and and again you always have to think that there's always somebody with a worse problem than you you know it's always reminds me of that I think the draw of shame reminds me of that could be worse sometimes and and you always have like okay remind yourself of what you have done until today.

45:07Claire Blyth:And, you know, it's not going to be forever. Also the suffering, but also the happiness is not forever. So there's always ups and downs. And I mean, after you live for a long time in the profession, you get like more, less expectation of everything needs to be so intense and so perfect and you have to suffer so deeply. Yeah, you punish yourself and I think you let it go easier. That's the beauty of getting older. but doesn't get easier necessarily. You just, I think you just bounce back faster and that you get the maturity to bounce back, understand, okay, great, I did my best. As long as I did my best and I pushed the most I could creatively, also honestly, and I did my best within the means that I had, the instruments that I had, within that moment in time of my life that I had.

45:58Claire Blyth:Because there's so many things. If you have somebody sick, I mean, seriously, your maximum is not going to be your maximum normally so you have to be also uh understanding have a wider view of what is happening to forgive yourself or even continue and say okay let's there's another day the sun is always going to shine the next day that's the beauty of the universe well apart from today not in london not in london but somewhere it will

46:29Rejane Dal Bello:any other questions is there like have you thought like a dream project that you'd love to fill

46:34Claire Blyth:an unwritten chapter with

46:38Rejane Dal Bello:ooh good question dream project that you'd like to fill that's a difficult one

46:43Claire Blyth:I've always yeah I wanted I wanted to do something with dance for a long time I also have a chapter in my life that I used to I used to be a hip hop dancer so yeah I dance, if there's any Brazilian here, with Claudinho Buchecha. And a true story, a fun fact, my 15 minutes of fame was at Sadler's Wells. Okay, I'm not kidding. I was in a group in Rio de Janeiro. It was like winning all the competitions. And this girl that was now an adult in the Sadler's Wells, dancing in the biggest contemporary ballet dancer in Brazil, I went to see the ballet after it she was outside smoking which is contrasting itself I see a photo of that I was coming out and I was waiting for friends so I was also outside waiting for the friend and she looked at me she said are you Regione dobelo that's so cool what she said I used to see you guys dance when I was like I was like 11 10 you know like you guys in that group inspired me.

47:50Claire Blyth:I was like, are you joking? I'm in London. I just saw Ballet. She knew my name. That's nuts. And she remembered. It's a difficult name even in Brazil. I was like, this is my 50. And true, because there was some Brazilian friends that were there and others not. And they were like, what is she talking to her? Because she was the Ballet. They knew she was with still the clothing and stuff. And then they were like, oh my God, this is insane. Yeah, so it was a 15 minutes of fame that I had. It's a very long time. Not as a designer, not as a designer, which is very funny.

48:22Rejane Dal Bello:But if anyone from Saddle as well would be listening, then clearly Regina needs to design for them.

48:26Claire Blyth:And this can be verified. This story can be verified. Many, many friends were there. Yeah, so dance. Dance would be probably something very lovely. Yeah, one day.

48:37Rejane Dal Bello:My next question here. When trusting the process hasn't quite worked, how have you dealt with that decline if you had to go and ask for more time or more money? to get to the solution you're happy with or do you go with the solution which best get time frame that you've had?

48:58Claire Blyth:I'm going through one example exactly like this. And then my project manager was like, shall we ask for more money? I said, not now. It's going to even have a problem. We're going to, let's say, make more bad feeling within the process. it was in this case I mean I don't get this situation much because normally you have planning you can have a time to very much like show many like possibilities and be certain and clear what you have in this case anyway it was very short time and I did not have time to very much reflect so and I showed one thing it's a killer for me like showing one thing is always never worked because if you don't have anything to compare they are always doubting and they want to see something else so that's like in this case you have to suck it in make the time and that's the part that is not easy because sometimes somebody can literally say i don't like it even if you went through the strategy even if you went through the but then if your perspective is not their expectation or did not live to their expectation that's the hard part that we don't know how to solve it we have to that's why we have to be well paid because we have to be counting of the days that's not going to be actually worked and being paid and most of the projects we are most the time at least for me is like just there's much many many hours that is not being paid and I tell my students like oh they did not pay my extra time I said welcome to the business like this is if you have the attitude if you want to make something good they're gonna pay you an average what they want they can or they think it's you're gonna be able to do it but you know we know how much craft and how much doubt it takes and much doubt and to get something good and then the next day you think it's not good anymore and it's all so many feelings around it isn't it so what i do i suck it in uh At this moment, I second in about talking about money and I put the energy into making the thing for them to be happy, to not get like a sour relationship, which can get, you know, if we start talking about money now, like before I solve the issue, make them happy and then try to get your way.

51:27Claire Blyth:And hopefully they will have some understanding as well and pull some strings. But sometimes it doesn't work. sometimes you're gonna have to suck it so sorry that's my experience at least i'm not sure if that helps yeah it's just curious okay yeah i'm humiliating myself with this story

51:48Rejane Dal Bello:there's one more question do you find to mention dance do you find you get inspired by other kinds of things or even you think it's kind of like a form of design like do you say that dance is kind of like design um do you find inspiration out there oh yeah i think we all do isn't it i i like

52:10Claire Blyth:to i like to support all these things with learning a bit of neuroscience that's something that helps with the creative process so i actually learning how we see how we can actually the brain processes idea i i learned that we cannot do big jumps into a creativity you have to go to small steps, the brain cannot just make a completely radical thinking in one go. So that's why the creative process and time is very important because the brain cannot do it. So understanding that you take your pressure out of you and understand that the process is part of how your brain has to digest information. And also a bit of philosophy because Jacques Derrida also talks about the construction viste, which is a French philosopher in the 20th century.

52:58Claire Blyth:And he talks very much about also that it is the process of saying this is it this is not this this is it this is not is that the process of understanding and that you can actually say even if the first idea is the best he says you have to go through the process to make sure you understand that the first idea is the best because sometimes we just think the idea the first idea is the best but it's not for us to understand what really the first idea is you have to compare and contrast with other ideas and of course this is butch i'm butchering his philosophy bringing into a very down-to-earth graphic designer voice stupid mentality like me mine but that's what understood you know because i was trying to understand our profession because designers we cannot explain and not everybody can explain i mean you get a little bit of here i get a little bit of there and you start to support creativity in this world through that through actors through uh this book that i told about this musician so i really trying to find from other people to support our the insanity which it is creativity and to live creatively you know the the all these insecurities and you know and things like that so i do i do support myself with many things hopefully yeah good question i

54:18Rejane Dal Bello:like that. Rajani, thank you so much for this. It's been a lot of fun.

54:21Claire Blyth:Thank you so much for this. Yeah, thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you, Claire, so much for this.