Emergencies, Unlucky Space Shuttles and Space 2026

31:13Wow. That's amazing. Now, as we know, that claimed the life of seven astronauts, including the teacher, Krista McAuliffe. You've been working for Lehigh University in Pennsylvania now for over 20 years. So you'll be very aware of that, the importance of education and getting the interest of a younger generation in space, in STEM subjects, in working within industry. How do you feel then about, you know, there have been some recent closures in those sort of educational facilities that NASA has been running, which, you know, have been incredibly popular with the sort of getting the next generation inspired?

31:55Yeah, it seems we're taking a little bit of a step backwards right now, but I think it's just temporary. NASA is still doing a lot of STEM activities and we're focused on that. And we work through the Pennsylvania Space Grant here at Lehigh, where that funding comes in to help our students. And our students do programs with the public schools in the Lehigh Valley here that are STEM related. So it's going forward. I mean, it's a hiccup in the system here, I think, because it's so important to motivate young people and to provide good role models for them to pursue careers in science and technology.

32:34So I think we're going to recover from this and keep moving forward, I hope. Now, you were born in Pittsburgh, and we recently visited Astrobotic in Pittsburgh and saw the lunar lander being built there. That must be incredible for you, you know, being sort of from the state to know that the next generation of lunar discovery is actually happening on your doorstep. Yeah, it's really amazing. And they've done such a good job. That company is very tightly affiliated with Carnegie Mellon University, as you may know. They've done a CubeSat, as has Penn State, where your son is right now. Yeah. And we just proposed a CubeSat ourselves to NASA.

33:18Lehigh has. And my students did a wonderful job designing this spacecraft that would detect plastic floating on the surface of the oceans. That's on hold right now, of course, because of all the turmoil at NASA. But we're hoping that will pick up again here soon. Yep. Pennsylvania has done real well. We're very proud of all our schools and our association with the space program. I want to come back to the shuttle briefly and then talk about the future of space exploration a little bit more. I mean, we've had the Challenger disaster, we then had the Columbia disaster. did you feel that the shuttle's time has come or had come or is there a role for that sort of spacecraft where you can do amazing things like you did you know retrieving a satellite in orbit fixing it and letting it off back off again yeah i i well we had the two failures you know out of 136 or 138 missions and we had the the two failures i i think if if it weren't for the problems with the economics of the program, we'd still be flying the shuttle.

34:24We really figured out where the weak points were from a safety point of view, the cause of two failures and other things that have been repaired along the way. So we had a pretty viable vehicle. The problem was it was costing$700 or$800 million per mission to fly. The original business model that I referred to earlier, I think in 1974 dollars or whenever the program was started, it was, you know, like 10 or 15 million dollars per mission. So they way missed the cost of refurbishing the shuttle between flights and the overall cost of the operation. So I think for economic reasons, the program needed to end and move on to some more lower cost reusable vehicles like SpaceX and Blue Origin are doing now.

35:13What's amazing, though, is that, you know, you had a crew, a shuttle to go up and service spacecraft. That's now the future. But with robotic spacecraft, and we've seen some experimental spacecraft in orbit doing this. So that's back on the agenda sort of 40, 45 years later. Yeah, it's wonderful, really. And there are things going on in other parts of the government. You know, the Department of Defense is looking at satellite servicing, we call it now, instead of repair. And it's going to be a major industry going forward. You know, we did four servicing missions to the Hubble telescope. And that kind of thing, that capability is being designed into spacecraft in the future, you know, so we can refuel them and change hardware.

35:58I think that's a whole industry into itself. I mentioned the, you know, the Lunar Lander Griffin that's being built at Astrobotic. How do you feel about Artemis and the return to the moon? Yeah, it was wonderful, of course. And I think going back to the moon makes a lot of sense if we do it in a permanent way with the outpost, a laboratory on the South Pole, as you know, is where they're heading. And it makes a lot of sense to do that in the context of we need to learn how to live in space three days away on the moon before we get ready to try to go to Mars nine months away and support life on Mars.

36:40So it's a stepping stone. In the meantime, there will be lots of good science coming from it as well. But the key thing is to learn how to live in space in a permanent way. So your thought is the moon to Mars and we should be looking at Mars and Mars as the next step? Yeah, I think so. If you talk to the scientific community, I think oftentimes they kind of raise a lot of questions about the cost of going back to the moon just for that purpose, where they would rather do more space probes and go pick up an asteroid and bring it back into the moon. That kind of mission is maybe more scientific value.

37:20And of course, going to Mars, huge scientific potential there. So it's hard to justify going back to the moon just for science. But again, you know, the idea is to figure out how to support life three days away before we try to go to Mars. And do you think that will happen then? Do you think that is the trajectory that we're on? Oh, no, no doubt. No doubt. And, yeah, I tell my students, you know, when I usually give a little history lesson, teaching engineering is really a lot about history from going back to Newton and earlier. But when Kennedy said, you know, let's we're going to go to the moon back in 1962.

37:58So much had to be invented to make that happen. Computers at that time were driven by vacuum tubes as big as a room, you know, to do a simple calculation. So so much had to be done. Even 20 years ago, we already had everything we need to go to Mars. It's not like we have to invent something new. We know how to do it. It's a major undertaking from a logistics point of view and programmatics to build everything and to do it. But we don't have to invent anything to go to Mars. So it's a little different situation. And no question we'll do it because that's what we are as almost sapiens. We want to explore and all the adventure associated with it.

38:39You're teaching now and you've just launched a new course at Lehigh. What do your students feel about this? Is this where they see humanity going? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some students are a little more focused on aircraft and drones, aerospace here back on Earth. But quite a few increasingly are focused on space. And the jobs are coming. I mean, it's amazing what Blue Origin and SpaceX are doing right now and building their own rocket engines and launching constellations of satellites. So there's just a lot going on. It's a very exciting time for our young people. And so is that the future?

39:20I mean, we were recently at an event, the Global Space Awards. It was filled with young companies, new companies, venture capitalists, barely any space agencies there. Is that the way forward, these space entrepreneurs and new space businesses? I think so. I mean, the opportunities are there. It's just a matter when someone can find a business model, you know, that works, that supports. We thought back early in a shuttle program, we could see the space station was coming. And we thought, you know, within a year or two of operating the space station, there'd be all these entrepreneurs at our doorstep, you know, waiting to manufacture something new in space, taking advantage of the weightlessness and all.

40:07And it didn't happen, you know, for all these decades, but it seems like it's starting to happen now. I think one of the reasons it was so difficult is, you know, it takes three or four years to get an experiment approved to put it on the space station and the safety regulations and everything you have to go through. In fact, Lehigh just finished a thermophoresis experiment that came back on the Dragon capsule. But it takes years of planning. And it's difficult for people, entrepreneurs, you know, to think, well, four years from now, you know, I might see a little revenue, maybe, you know, it's a tough proposition.

40:36But I think now, though, it's starting to get some traction, you know, and companies are building dedicated spacecraft that go up on their own, do weightless processing and then come back without any human interaction. You know, so I think the entrepreneurs are starting to see the potential for their businesses working. Well, we certainly saw that before Christmas. So many venture capitalists there, you know, Richard and I have been making a podcast on space for years now. And it took us both by surprise the actual amounts of money that people were talking about. Yeah, that's great. I think it's finally come.

41:14Just like I said earlier, a lot of us thought it was going to happen much earlier. But I think the issues of safety and so forth, necessarily, you know, to get into the space station were hurdles that were just too high. Those hurdles are coming down now as people find new ways and lower cost ways to get into space. If Elon Musk rung up and said, you can have a seat on a starship, would you take it? Would you want to get back to space? Well, if they came and said, well, we're doing some experiments on geriatrics. So I can make a contribution. Yeah, you and me both, I think. Yeah, I think of John Glenn, you know, I think he was 72 or something when he flew on the space shuttle, you know, way back when.

41:58And they did that under the guise of science. But I don't want to go back into training for a whole year or two years to go on one mission. But if I could do it in a couple of months, I would. He was 77. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. 77. Wow. So you've got a good few years yet. You're fine. Yeah. Former shuttle astronaut Terry Hart, now a professor of engineering at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania, where he teaches a new master's programme in aerospace and space systems engineering. And boy, would I like to be in his class. He was great. He sounds great. He was lovely. Absolutely lovely. Had a nice chat before we started recording as well.

42:41Very personable. You know, some astronauts, you know, all astronauts, they do pretty good interviews, I would say, for most of the astronauts we've spoken to. And they're generally personable. But I just felt we had more of a connection. He was very chatty beforehand. It was really nice to talk to. And it's nice. You know, we've never interviewed Terry before. It's nice to get a different perspective. And I loved all the little revelations he was giving here and there about what happened. It was really good. So we'll have to find some more, some different astronauts. Yeah, the ones who are hiding.

43:18Yeah, the hidden astronauts. We will find you. We will find you. We've done pretty well with astronauts. Goodness knows. We've got two in this podcast. I know. We've got loads over the last 15 years. Oh, it's almost. It's 2011. So this year is the 14th, 15th year. 15th year. Oh, so July is our 15th anniversary. So if we can last till then. Wow, I'll have to have a party. This is Space Muffins. We're in partnership with The Naked Scientists. Do get in touch on any form of social media light, really, and we'll try to respond. We do read everything, though. It's just that we're a little overscheduled.

43:59So, yeah, we're really happy to hear from you. And we do get back to you. It just might be a transatlantic delay. Of six months. Even if you're in the UK. Yeah. And we'd love a postcard again. We haven't had a postcard or notes or anything for a while. Oh, since before Christmas, yeah. So let's have a postcard, folks. That would be lovely. And let's talk about 2026, which is certainly shaping up to be a significant year. in the history of spaceflight. Artemis 2 is due to launch in the coming weeks. SpaceX is ramping up the Starship testing program. And then there's China. Well, to look ahead and get a sense of what's going on, we were joined by Andrew Jones, correspondent at Space News and expert in the Chinese space program, and Ken Kramer.

44:43He runs the Space Up Close website. And he began by talking about the importance of Artemis II. This mission is super significant. You know, when I was a kid, we were going to the moon. It's that long ago. And I've waited my whole life to go back. And now it's finally going to happen. NASA finally announced that rollout will be on the 17th. The weather looks good. So unless there's a technical problem, it will go forward. So the first time having humans go to the moon in over 50 years since Apollo 17 in 1972, They will loop around the moon. They're not going to land. But this is critical to set up the landing mission, Artemis 3, whenever that might be, which we can talk about.

45:24It's been delayed a lot because of issues with the SpaceX Starship human lander. It's so exciting. We've met the crew. They're a great crew. And we wish them all the best. Now you're based in Florida, Ken. So you're sort of right at the heart of the excitement and action in terms of launches. What sort of attention has it been getting both locally in Florida and nationally in the United States? Well, locally here in Florida gets a lot of attention. I do a lot of interviews every week about space, and there's a lot about Artemis. Nationally, you know, not as much. I don't think a lot of people know about it.

46:03They will know about it in a couple of weeks when it actually happens, if it goes in early February. It's ramping up, but a lot of people really have no idea that we're going back to the moon. Well, that's surprising. I'm really surprised to hear you say that. I honestly did not expect you to say that. It's sad, but it's true. Once you get out of Central Florida, because we have the space center right here, and when you get away from like Houston or Los Angeles, where we have big space centers for NASA and launch pads from NASA and the Space Force, there's a lot less. We meet people all the time because we do a lot of outreach.

46:45We meet people all the time and say, oh, NASA's still launching space shuttles. they don't distinguish between space shuttles and rockets so yeah there needs to be a lot more attention people are going to be shocked when this actually happens it is sad that people don't know but we do our best to to enlighten people and that's why it's really great to talk to you guys we're trying to get the word out uh the interesting thing is that this is Artemis 2 is going to no it's no earlier than early February at the moment so you know if it rolls out soon we you You know, we could see it in February, then it might be March or April.

47:20So at the same time, you're going to see China perform its own tests in the not too distant future, which are part of its own program to get its own astronauts on the moon. So we could see a test of the new generation spacecraft called Mengzhou, which they've developed. I think the next thing will be for that a ball test at maximum dynamic pressure. And then later in the year, we could see the rocket, which will launch that, having a test launch or a low altitude launch. And then later in the year, integrated test with the Long March 10A and the Mengzhou capsule as the first test of that. So China's a bit vague on its timeline, which you might want to talk about later.

48:02That was, in fact, my next question is, I suppose it's a two-part question, really. What is their timeline and do they see it as a competition with the US? or they're just carrying on at their own speaks. There is a lot of national pride in this, isn't there? Yeah, prestige and national pride and domestic legitimacy are all wrapped up in this. So the timeline that Chinese officials give is before the end of the decade, basically. So it kind of echoes the Apollo kind of declarations in a sense. so we it's it's hard to tell how to like on schedule everything's going but it seems to be going very well so far the incremental testing that they're doing so you know we could see the test flight of the long march 10a and the monjo spacecraft this year then they would need to then take that long march 10a and make it into a kind of tri-core rocket which will be able to take Mongeau to the moon and then you'd see test flights of that in 2027, 2028.

49:04Maybe in 2028, we would get a circumlunar mission like Artemis 2 and then maybe in the following year, an attempt at landing on the moon. So that's the kind of timeline that they're working on. That's quite interesting, isn't it? Because China's, you know, it's already successfully landed a robotic spacecraft on the moon. It's got Changi 7 going to the South Pole later this year. You know, they're obviously just a year or two behind America in terms of going round with humans around the moon. Do you see it or does China see it as a race? Because there's so much speculation about who will get back onto the moon first.

49:44And the main contenders are either the United States or China. Well, I think being first on the moon would be significant in terms of prestige, in terms of public outreach and diplomacy and, you know, all these kinds of things. But China doesn't publicly talk about this being a race. So internally, of course, this would be of interest, but they are not racing. Their timeline is not dictated by what the U.S. is doing largely. So the only ones that are calling this a race would be on the American side. So, I mean, when you had Sean Duffy as the acting administrator of NASA last year, you had this moment where he was tweeting that, you know, the United States is going to beat China to the moon.

50:32And that was kind of like, I don't know if you follow football, but it was kind of like, if you remember this Kevin Keegan moment in the mid-90s where Newcastle were way ahead of Manchester United in the league. but then it came back and it was kind of like that. It was like that moment where you kind of knew that Newcastle lost it. And it was kind of like when Sean Duffy did that, it's kind of like them saying, okay, we're struggling here and China might be first. So that was an interesting moment. I think that analogy might be a little... It's a bit lost. Lost in translation for a lot of people apart from Kevin Keegan's poem.

51:08I feel like you had edited that for an hour. Oh no, it works for some. um ken i mean i know this is something you've been deeply concerned about particularly with the delays to to building a lander i'm very deeply concerned about it i talk about it a lot in lectures and in interviews it's definitely viewed as a race here i think when artemis 2 finally launches people might wake up to the fact that the chinese might really beat us musk is he has failed nasa as far as i'm concerned they are years behind schedule with the human lander. They keep promising and they're not delivering. The version three is supposed to launch any day now, and now it's delayed again to March.

51:49We don't know when that's going to happen. So the one good thing that Duffy did was actually pull the contract. But now with Isaacman in charge, we don't actually know what the status of that contract is right now. But I think people are finally waking up to the fact China's been doing all this testing, as you outlined. And so we're going to see this year, we're going to see with those orbital tests and those ascent abort tests and the tests of the rocket, just how close they are. But they have been doing testing of their lunar module, building their new crew vehicle. And it looks impressive to me.

52:24And they have a simple program with two launches, whereas Artemis 3 is going to require anywhere from 10 to 30 or 40 launches to do that cryogenic refueling. So I'm really concerned. SpaceX has got to come up with a simpler pathway as well as Blue Origin. And I like Blue Origin. They might be able to modify their lunar lander, the uncrewed one, which will launch this year into a manned lunar lander, into a human lander. So we'll see. Because at the moment, as you say, with Blue Origin and all the delays with SpaceX, there's going to be a huge gap between Artemis 2 and Artemis 3 and actually landing on the moon?

53:03Because it's not there. No one's built the lander yet. That's the whole problem. One thing that has been proposed is to swap out missions. If the gateway gets launched, which Trump wanted to cancel, but looks like the Congress has saved it, is to do a mission to the gateway, the lunar gateway, the mini orbiting space station around the moon, do that as Artemis 3 and do the landing on Artemis 4. So there's not such a big gap, because yeah, right now, now it's delayed to 2028. So we're talking about another two or three years till it happens. If that is even realistic, it's really hard to say. So it's a multi-year gap.

53:44So swapping out the missions could help. Putting some fire under these contractors to perform is definitely going to help. Otherwise, we're going to lose. And maybe the Chinese are not promoting it as a space race publicly, but I'll bet you behind the scenes, Xi Jinping would just love to meet America back to the moon. Well, Andrew, you know, there has been some drama with the Chinese space station last year when there was some damage to the cruise return spacecraft due to space debris. What is sort of, you know, the year ahead for the Chinese space station and for other missions that you think is particularly interesting?

54:24Yeah, it's interesting to see how they dealt with this. It seemed like for Shundra 20 when they were about to come back, it seemed like they found this issue with the kind of port view window probably just by going into the spacecraft just before they're about to leave. So it must have been a very quick change of plans and lots of fast assessments and everything. so one thing that they have at the moment is they don't have rockets and a spacecraft on standby because they they use that to send the kind of emergency rescue kind of launch to to yengong so they're lacking that capability for you know a month or two more i would say when that's ready then we'll probably see shenzhou 20 come back so it'll be interesting to follow that make its re-entry and see how it makes it through re-entry land safely or not so i think the calculations were that it probably would be okay, would have made it back, but you just don't take the risk when you're dealing with human spaceflight.

55:23I was just going to say, I think this is quite interesting that we're actually hearing about things that are not going perfectly for China in space. Is this just because you are very good at getting these sorts of knowledge or is China becoming more open in how it communicates what it's doing in its space programme? In a way, yes. So China has, you know, I think that they could pass this off as a win in a sense. It's like, you know, our processes, our procedures worked, right? They were able to deal with a quite serious issue, quite calmly, get it all sorted out. So they don't have any problem with this.

56:01The thing is that when it happened, we only hear what they put out. So they're very much on transmit. So these days we get more information of what's going on, but it's still very much controlled in terms of what comes out. And there's not like any back and forth. So there's no press conferences where you would get questions which aren't very carefully kind of choreographed and all this kind of thing. So, yeah, I mean, we hear more, but, you know, it's very much a different kind of information environment. So the other things that they've got planned, so Shenzhou 23 and Shenzhou 24 will be going to Chiang Gong.

56:33Shenzhou 24 should be carrying the first international astronaut to Chiang Gong, actually. So I think that would be national from Pakistan. So what they will do is that astronaut will join the outgoing missions of Shenzhou 24, go up to the space station, but then leave with the outgoing crew like a few days later. So it'll be a short duration mission. So one of the Chinese astronauts will stay on Tiangong for a year, which will be a first for China. And apart from that, they'll have a cargo mission. I don't think the Mongzhou spacecraft will go to Tiangong, although one variant of it is designed to take up to six astronauts to Tiangong.

57:13There'll be a small, low-cost cargo spacecraft maybe launching for the first time later in the year as well. Again, that will probably be a LEO test rather than a docking and everything like this because it's a prototype. But yeah, it'll be interesting here for Tiangong as well as for their lunar cruise plans. The fact that China has constant funding and support from the government helps, whereas we have change in administrations. And, you know, it changes every four years and you can't plan for the future, which is terrible. So, yeah, I'm very hopeful with Isaacman, but we'll just have to see.

57:51I had asked him about science, and he was a great supporter of science going to Hubble when he did his Polaris mission. So I get to meet him and talk to him about that. And, you know, it's been a little muddled, his message about science, now that he's the administrator. Thank God the Congress, in a bipartisan way, which is what we need, bipartisan support for NASA, supported NASA, came up with an almost full budget. so that way most of those missions that were threatened with cancellation will continue. There's still some uncertainty, though, with Europe programs, as I think Andrew was writing the other day.

58:30It's definitely much better, but the Senate still has to pass the budget. Trump still has to sign it, and then Trump has to actually spend the money because there's no guarantee he's going to do any of that. He has impounded funds for many programs, and what I say is these cuts to NASA only enable the communist Chinese to leap ahead of us and to seize leadership in space and science and that's what's going to happen so that's a message I want to get out so that's why we need to support NASA fully with good programs that make sense I think they have a good program and I hope Isaacman will carry that out I hope that he will convince Trump that he must push forward in space and in science.

59:18And Ken, do you think, I mean, it's been a year, it feels like a year has been wasted with the hesitation over appointing Jared Isaacman as the NASA administrator. Do you think he can get the agency back on track? Do you think there will be a plan emerging in the coming weeks and months? This is the plan to get astronauts back on the moon? I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. Again, it depends on Trump signing that budget, giving full support to NASA. And hopefully he will. You know, he started Artemis. It makes no sense that Trump did a 25 % cut to NASA. It makes no sense at all. So, yeah, I'm hopeful with Isaacman.

1:00:00He's got to support science. I'm a lot more hopeful than I was. But, yeah, a year has been wasted. Artemis has just muddled along. If there was a strong leader, maybe they would have gotten on to SpaceX and really gotten some answers from them. And we would have had this contract pulled or modified sooner. There needs to be action because otherwise 2028 is not even going to happen. Going to the South Pole of the moon is a great thing. I'm a chemist living off the land, mining that ice, having rocket fuel and air you can breathe and water you can potentially drink. is absolutely the right way to go.

1:00:41We need an Antarctica-like base at the South Pole of the Moon. I want to go to Mars too. I love Mars, but we got to use the Moon as a proving ground. That's my opinion. Ken Kramer and Andrew Jones. Thank you so much to them. It was an illuminating discussion. Yeah, they're both very good journalists, both very knowledgeable about their subject. And it It was great to have them on from those two ends, the Chinese space program and the US space program. And obviously, Ken has quite strong views about certain aspects of things, again, which we love, which we really enjoy. And yeah, it's illuminating.

1:01:24It was really good. I think we should say we are actually recording this on the 17th of January. I say that because things are just moving so quickly with Artemis 2. I mean, literally, it's due to roll out today, this afternoon sort of UK time. So, I mean, you know, whether that happens or not, we never know with anything like this. But it is possible that... It's launched by the time we do the next podcast. Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. Yeah. Well, fingers crossed. It is possible, or it might happen in March, it might happen in April. But NASA are pushing and pushing and pushing with this.

1:01:58The only, well, it came up at one of the press conferences recently with NASA that there is a potential conflict with the next launch to the International Space Station. It's the next Dragon launch, which is due around mid-February, so 15th of February, which actually coincides. So you could have a situation where in a week, the same week, they are different, completely separate operations because it's a SpaceX operation to launch the Dragon. and a NASA operation to, you know, separate control room, separate launch control, all the rest of it, to launch Artemis II. In the same week, in a matter of days, you could have a launch to the space station and the launch of Artemis II up, out and back around the moon.

1:02:39That must be great if you live in Florida, which obviously Ken Kramer does with his lovely wife, Jean Wright. Well, they're always popping out to see a quick launch. I do envy. That ability. And what's nice about it, I mean, NASA have put up the launch windows and you can see how they spread out approximately over about six days or so each time, don't they, in February and March and then as they go on. So we know that obviously for Brits and Europeans, Florida is a pretty popular destination at this time of year. So if you happen to be going there for a holiday, just check, you know, you may well be there for a launch.

1:03:25And, you know, that will be the place to be. Pretty confident Space Buffins. There's lots of Space Buffins listeners sort of on standby with a travel agent on the website as soon as the launch date's announced. Oh, my goodness. It's a tricky one, though. I know, because you're effectively doing that. Yeah, I am, because I have accreditation for going to the launch on behalf of, well, this podcast, Supermassive Podcast and BBC Future. But it's a difficult decision to make. I think I'd regret probably not going. But you could go, pay all that money for the flight, and then it not happen, which of course does happen.

1:04:00It does happen. The only good thing now is there are so many launches from Florida. There's a pretty good chance you get some launch. You just might not get Artemis 2, but you might get the Dragon. you know if it's mid-February although somebody said to me the other day oh they're about to go on holiday to Florida and I went oh lucky you catch a launch and they looked at me as if I was mad it just hadn't occurred to them because they were going for Disney World because Orlando is so close but I do both Space Coast and Orlando is so close so yeah I may or may not go wasn't it interesting what Ken was saying about that he felt there wasn't as much interest in it I mean that's I suppose that's our little world, me saying to this woman going to Florida, you'll catch a launch and she didn't get it.

1:04:45I do think some of the communication is misleading. Because they keep saying it's a flight going to the moon. It's not. It's going around the moon. I mean, that's great. It's going the furthest we've ever been. It's, you know, this massive rocket. I think it's more that not everybody thinks as we do. I think it's more that because it's our little obsession and love and passion, as it is, I'm sure, listeners. Well, why would you listen to this podcast if you didn't like space? It's really quite difficult. It's like I go like a robot in Star Trek when Captain Kirk, you know, gives a smackeroonie to an android, obviously a female android and very well built and and her little emotions go and and the wires start popping and and they lose it and i i feel like that whenever somebody just hasn't realized there's a launch or there's you know artemis 2 going to florida and don't even think of going to the space coast i i i blow a fuse a mental fuse i do not compute it every every 60s sci-fi when you ask a computer why oh yeah it starts blowing up that's me so yeah oh gosh but no what i feel is misleading a little bit about the going to the moon is people might think we're landing on the moon people are landing on the moon and as ken was saying we're nowhere near that which i mean that's what's so frustrating that this is happening and it's going to happen you know unless something's seriously wrong with the rocket or the launch system there will be an artemis 2 launch in the next few weeks?

1:06:21Actually, I've just thought of something else. There was a quiz show I saw recently, and there were several questions that people didn't get. One was about which US president basically launched the Apollo program. I think the answer they said was Richard Nixon. Well, I mean, it's interesting because he was there to take all the credit because he was there when they splashed down in the ocean. And it's amazing how many of those what I would assume would be basic knowledge oh yeah the one that was shocked me most of all when did um the first moon landing happen they didn't get that yeah they didn't get that I thought that was like the battle of Hastings 1066 it's one of those dates that everyone well in the UK you know 1066 you know well you used to but I guess you know the uh the landing smash down of dragon it was beautiful to watch because the fact that it was at night and And the smooth operation to get it onto the ship and the astronauts have the crew off, you know, within half an hour.

1:07:24It's amazing what they can do. I thought everyone should watch this. This is spectacular. It's visually incredible. I don't know, though, because I hardly watch. And this is from a woman who used to be a correspondent on TV news. I hardly watch TV news. You don't have to. And that's how it's changed. So I don't know whether the main TV news bulletins are showing these anymore. They only showed this because of the medical emergency issue. That's the only reason. So it's the human interest, I suppose. It's like Apollo 13. You know, no one was watching it. So possibly, actually, Artemis 2 could get a boost in coverage once it happens because they know there are human beings on board.

1:08:11Yeah. and the launch is going to be spectacular i mean you know the the those four engines and the two solid rocket boosters and there's that there's a 45 minute period when they're out of contact you can't you don't know until they come around that is very exciting yeah um nerve-wracking i think for all concerned um that everything's going to be out because at that point they will be the furthest out of her for a human being in deep space effectively. Yeah, so I think maybe that excitement, she says, hopefully will return when the launch happens and when you've got that little thought of that.

1:08:54Hopefully the 24-hour news stations will cover that and make that clear. It just reminded me, Al Warden, Apollo 15 astronaut, one of my favorite uh Apollo astronauts much missed um he he went we've asked him about this on the podcast um about going you know behind the moon um when he was on his own in the capsule the other two on the uh the lunar surface and how much he loved that bit of the mission when he was just completely on his own not being bothered by mission control um who wouldn't yeah so he that was his most enjoyable part of the mission on his own in this space capsule out of contact with earth I I mean, that's extraordinary.

1:09:34And with the best view in the world. Yeah, in the universe. Yeah, how wonderful. Although I think the view near Saturn would be amazing. Seeing those rings, seeing its moons, Jupiter in the distance. Is there enough light if you're actually there? I'll let you know when I go there. Obviously, all the spacecraft have enhanced cameras and enhanced optics. So I wonder with the naked eye what you'd actually see. and on that note do get in touch if you're still listening and thanks very much for listening