In short
How to build wealth while staying aligned with social-justice values in mission-driven careers; includes effective altruism, pricing strategies, retirement/investing, and ESG investing.
Guests
No episode guests; hosts are Sean Pyles and Elizabeth Ayola. Guest background referenced: “Leanne,” a listener and nurse working in a public safety-net hospital serving patients who can’t afford care; also teaches wilderness medicine to individuals and nonprofits at minimal fees.
Key claims
Money isn’t inherently unethical; what matters is how you earn and use it. Avoid “purity tests” that equate being good with earning less. Build a financial base (savings/retirement) so you can keep serving. Effective altruism may justify charging more to increase impact.
Notable examples
Dolly Parton’s philanthropy (Imagination Library) as an ethical wealth example; Grayston Bakery as a social enterprise (profit reinvested into community; open hiring). Practical suggestions: use retirement accounts (401k/403b/457b/IRA), get employer match, consider sliding-scale pricing, explore grants/sponsorships, and use NerdWallet’s Retirement Calculator; consider ESG funds but research.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOListener Question on Wealth and Values
1:00 to 2:44
Discussion of a listener's question about aligning job choice with social justice beliefs.
“We're digging into that with today's listener question, which comes from Leanne.”
Debunking Money Myths
2:44 to 4:00
Hosts explore the belief that wealth and ethics cannot coexist.
“I really love this question because we talk on Smart Money a lot about living your values, having your values align with your spending.”
Personal Experiences with Money and Morality
4:00 to 6:15
Hosts share personal stories about their relationship with money and morality.
“And I think I have an interesting background growing up in the church and also having that belief.”
Understanding Wilderness Medicine
6:15 to 7:58
Hosts clarify the concept of wilderness medicine as a specialized field.
“No, but actually, it's actually a specialized field.”
Effective Altruism and Pricing Strategies
7:58 to 10:53
Exploration of effective altruism and how to set prices without compromising values.
“So that also helped me to overcome that.”
Building Wealth through Social Enterprises
10:53 to 12:44
Discussion on social enterprises and their role in building wealth while helping communities.
“That way they won't be in this sort of nebulous like, yes, I want to do good things, but I also need wealth.”
Inclusive Hiring Practices
14:00 to 15:17
Learn about innovative hiring methods that prioritize inclusivity.
“They just have a waiting list for people who want to work there.”
Building Wealth with Values
15:17 to 16:36
Explore how wealth can align with ethical values and societal impact.
“For some people, living their values might very well mean taking a pay cut, which we have seen is the case for Leanne.”
Understanding ESG Investing
16:36 to 17:27
Discover the principles of ESG investing and its profitability.
“to support causes that they feel passionately about through their money.”
Ethics in Career Choices
17:27 to 20:34
Discuss the balance between financial security and ethical job choices.
“And you can do good while also building well.”
Show all 19 chapters
Ethics in Career Choices
20:37 to 21:39
Discuss the balance between financial security and ethical job choices.
“Comfortable, versatile, and somehow right for almost every occasion.”
Ethics in Career Choices
21:44 to 21:57
Discuss the balance between financial security and ethical job choices.
“That's quince.com slash smart money for free shipping and 365-day returns.”
Financial Goal Accountability
22:28 to 28:00
Reflect on personal financial goals and progress accountability.
“Yeah, because I'm always counting down until Christmas and my birthday.”
Understanding Debt Management
28:00 to 28:33
Learn about managing debt and the importance of financial planning.
“And now I can't get that number out of my head.”
Personal Financial Goals Check-In
28:33 to 29:28
Hear about setting and adapting financial goals in life changes.
“Oh, I thought you were going to say a C.”
Adjusting Spending Habits Post-Wedding
29:28 to 30:24
Discussing changes in spending habits after significant life events.
“And I wanted to get to a higher number just in my savings across different categories.”
The Influence of Running Aesthetics on Spending
30:24 to 31:10
Explore how personal interests can impact financial decisions.
“I've talked about how I'm preparing to run around a mountain in August, which is coming up really fast.”
Dining Out: Balancing Enjoyment and Budget
31:10 to 33:59
Learn about the balance between social dining and sticking to a budget.
“The underscore Elizabeth underscore A-Y-O-L-A.”
The Importance of Generosity in Finance
33:59 to 34:48
Discussing the value of financial kindness and generosity toward friends.
“When I go out to eat with my friends, too, I love being like, I got it.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Sean Pyles:And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the matchday spread. He's reaching for the Buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's going for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Matchdays deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. mornings have a rhythm you can hear it feel it and at quaker we fuel it with 100 percent whole grain oats and a good source of fiber in every bowl helping you turn that rhythm into your soundtrack for a great day fuel to start whatever's next quaker official sponsor of fifa world cup 26
0:59Elizabeth Ayoola:Can you be a good person and still get rich? We're digging into that with today's listener question, which comes from Leanne.
1:10Sean Pyles:Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Piles.
1:18Elizabeth Ayoola:And I'm Elizabeth Ayola. Today's question is from a listener named Leanne and Leanne sent it via email. And it's about how to grow your money while aligning your job choice to social justice beliefs. Juicy topic here, Leanne. All right, here goes the question. I recently heard a guest on the show, Mrs. Dow Jones, talk about evaluating your finances, earning more rather than side hustles or cutting back. Her point, if you're already giving 100%, you need to assess your work and worth. My concern with this perspective is, how do you apply it when financial gain doesn't align with your values? I am a nurse who intentionally works in a public safety net hospital that serves communities in need, many of whom cannot afford care.
2:04Elizabeth Ayoola:I knowingly earn less than my peers at private hospitals, yet I choose this path to serve underserved patient populations. I also have a side job teaching wilderness medicine to individuals and nonprofits who often cannot afford this education. Many of them are seasonal workers or part of underfunded nonprofit organizations. I deliberately charge minimal fees and actively seek ways to reduce barriers to education. In essence, offering my labor for equity and inclusion. My question, inspired by this segment, in a situation like mine, how can one build wealth while staying true to values of social justice and service?
2:42Elizabeth Ayoola:Thank you. Leanne.
2:44Sean Pyles:I really love this question because we talk on Smart Money a lot about living your values, having your values align with your spending. But we haven't really talked a lot about having your values align with how you're earning your money. And there's so much to get into here.
2:56Elizabeth Ayoola:There really is. So when this question came in, Sean, I think what came to mind is that oftentimes people think that you can't have money without compromising your values. So I feel like we should address the common belief that people have, which I think is the underlying belief here, that you can't be wealthy and ethical at the same time.
3:15Sean Pyles:Yeah, that's a really common money script, actually. People have this idea of money guilt or money avoidance, thinking that if you have money, it's actually an immoral thing. When money itself is pretty neutrally moral, it's kind of what you do with it and also, to our listeners' point, how you earn it that really reflects your values and your morals. people who are only listening can't see this, but I'm wearing a shirt with Dolly Parton's face on it right now. I am a huge Dolly Parton fan. And I think she's a shiny example of how you can earn your money in an ethical way and to play it in a way that makes the world better in the way that she really values.
3:50Sean Pyles:I mean, she has this imagination library where she gives books away for free. She's hugely philanthropic in ways that she doesn't even really talk about until often way after the fact. So she just goes to show, yes, you can be tremendously wealthy and very successful and charge ticket fees that are a little expensive to my taste, but still be a good person in this world.
4:12Elizabeth Ayoola:I agree. And I think I have an interesting background growing up in the church and also having that belief. I think for majority of my life, I felt that money was bad. I felt that if you want to give back and be a good person, you can't do that and have a lot of money. Growing up in church also, there are always these conversations around demonizing pastors who have private jets or who earn lots of money or who are just doing well financially. It's like you have this trope that a pastor has to be suffering or someone who's doing good has to be suffering all the time. And it was such a huge turnaround when I finally unlearned that, yeah, I genuinely believe that you can do both.
4:49Sean Pyles:And that's something that I would like Leanne to question themselves about too a little bit is to what extent are they maybe applying unrealistic or maybe unnecessary purity tests to how they're living their lives. I really applaud the way that they are working and helping underserved communities. And that's super important work, as we all know. but I wonder if there's a way where they can begin to continue to serve these communities, but also maybe branch out into maybe a little bit of a stint at a private hospital just to continue to make some more money because it seems like at the end of the day, they really want to and will continue to live their values in many different ways.
5:25Sean Pyles:But they also have to look out for themselves because you can't really show up in your community if you don't have your basis covered, you don't have enough savings, or you're not tucking away investments for retirement, You need to really look out for that before you put everything out into whatever everyone else needs.
5:40Elizabeth Ayoola:I think this is a great time to pivot and dig deeper into Leanne's question. So to recap, they say that they deliberately charge minimal fees in the side job that they have teaching wilderness medicine. I had to Google what wilderness medicine was, and that is actually a very helpful niche. Shout out to Leanne.
5:58Sean Pyles:Wait, Elizabeth, quick aside. What actually is wilderness medicine? Because it sounds like it could be maybe just harvesting plants off the side of a trail and using it to cure your poison ivy. But what does that mean?
6:10Elizabeth Ayoola:Not going to lie. That's where my mind went. And I was like, are you in the wilderness? As the apocalypse happened, what is happening with wilderness? No, but actually, it's actually a specialized field. And it focuses on providing medical care in remote areas. And they use limited resources. So let's say that maybe you are in the wilderness and you have limited resources. It teaches you basically how you can treat people in those circumstances. So I thought that was pretty awesome.
6:33Sean Pyles:And sometimes I do wonder whether society is crumbling around us. And I think maybe this would be a skill I should learn.
6:39Elizabeth Ayoola:Right. Exactly. Leanne, we might actually sign up for your services and pay you more. But we'll get into that. Now, something that came to mind to me was effective altruism, because I think before we dive in other ways to do it, it's important, like Sean pointed out, to kind of have a reframe, because I don't know about you, Sean, but I had a long transition where I felt guilty about earning money. I felt guilty about asking for more money, maybe is a better way to put it. Especially when I had my side businesses, I would charge people extremely cheap to the point where I was barely even breaking even because I was like, I don't want to ask for too much money.
7:13Sean Pyles:Do you think this was a result of you growing up in the church like you mentioned earlier? Is that where it came from?
7:18Elizabeth Ayoola:That and coupled with, I've talked about it several times on the show, just feeling like I didn't deserve to earn any money as well because I associated being a good person with not having too much.
7:27Sean Pyles:Eventually, you reframed this way of thinking and you realized that you need more money just to get by. What was that process like?
7:33Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, therapy definitely helped me. And I think a lot of it was tied to my self-worth as a person and realizing that I deserve good things. And that includes me deserving money. And actually, interestingly, values was a huge part of that as well, because I asked myself, well, how do I want to live my life? As you know, freedom is a huge value for me. Flexibility is as well. So it's like you can't really do that much sometimes and live out your free values and live a flexible life if you don't have the money to do it. So that also helped me to overcome that. Okay, so back to Leanne's point, I want to quickly touch on something called effective altruism because it sounds like Leanne is being altruistic.
8:09Elizabeth Ayoola:And effective altruism is about finding the best way to change the world or make an impact versus finding a good way to help. So the key word here is the best way to help. And sometimes the best way to help is by having resources and by having money versus hoarding them. So Leanne, if you're out there feeling guilty about potentially charging your clients more, you can potentially make more impact with more money.
8:31Sean Pyles:Something that comes to mind too is that Leanne could still charge some people very minimal fees while charging others a higher price. Like with my financial planning firm, I have a flat rate for people who are doing well and can afford my hourly or per plan fee. But for those who aren't in a position to do that, maybe they don't have the resources or they just don't really know what they might want from me. I have a sliding scale and I actually help some people for no cost at all if they don't have traditional access to resources or financial planning. So that's one way that Leanne could think about this, too, is how can they have more flexibility where it's not all, OK, I charge minimal fees to everyone, but maybe, OK, here's how I have a degree of prices based on who I'm actually working with here.
9:19Elizabeth Ayoola:At some points, I was thinking about providing education around freelance writing to people. And I remember it was during the pandemic. And I thought similar thing. I don't want to charge people who potentially can't afford it high fees. And I also would like to help people who maybe can't afford this education, but writing could be transformative for them. And something I thought is, are there institutions who could pay me because they have the money to offer trainings and that would feel more ethical to me. And maybe also looking for NGOs who have the budget could also be a way to go about it without having to compromise my values.
9:53Sean Pyles:That's really smart. So did you look into any companies or where did you land on that?
9:58Elizabeth Ayoola:Absolutely not. I'm working here full time. I didn't have time for that.
10:01Sean Pyles:But it's an idea that Leanne could pursue in their own work, right?
10:04Elizabeth Ayoola:Exactly. And I may still pursue it in the future, but right now it's just a thought in my drafts. Another thing that Leanne could do is climb the ladder they are on. I don't know exactly how much budget the organization that Leanne works for has or where there is room in terms of upward mobility. But perhaps Leanne could just go the traditional route and look for more opportunities where they are.
10:26Sean Pyles:Something I want Leanne to get really clear on too is what amount of money or wealth is the right amount for them, the enough amount. We talk about that sometimes where it's getting really clear on how much money you would have or need to have to have the lifestyle that you want. So if Leanne hasn't already, I recommend that they play with NerdWallet's Retirement Calculator. We can link to that in the show notes to get a feel for really in a concrete dollar amount way. What amount of money they actually need to have the life that they would be comfortable living? That way they won't be in this sort of nebulous like, yes, I want to do good things, but I also need wealth.
11:02Sean Pyles:Really, when it comes down to it, what are the numbers that they need to have in their account so they can survive? And that's kind of lacking in their question, but it's really important to pursue that too, so that this can be kind of a more tactical approach from them.
11:17Elizabeth Ayoola:And Sean, I'm also thinking about the importance of separating the two, especially for people who do, I know she's not primarily doing nonprofit work, but people who are working in communities a lot. I find sometimes their lives kind of merge into one another. And has Leanne thought about, you know, what do I want my life to look like independently of the work I do? Because that might help them be able to create clear financial goals as opposed to I need to make a whole bunch of money to give it all back to community work and the work that I do. So that differentiation could be extremely helpful.
11:49Sean Pyles:Yeah, that's so important because when you are living and working in a very mission-driven way, it can be all-consuming. But I think it's helpful, too, for Leanne or anyone who's doing similar work to carve out their own niche and maybe have some privacy or a bit of a boundary around, okay, here is what I need to do to have my own sense of security. Even though they are giving so much to everyone else, they need to look out for themselves, too.
12:14Elizabeth Ayoola:Grants, sponsorships, or institutional funding are other things that Leanne could potentially look into. They can look into FEMA, the Wilderness Medical Society, and various other foundations that may be able to fund this. So again, they would have more resources that they could put towards doing the work that they're doing, the great work they're doing.
12:32Sean Pyles:And I'm sure there are other companies that are doing similar work to what Leanne wants to do, where they will help out a community that they really feel passionately about, but also do it in a way where they can have a business, a line of work that is helping a community they feel really passionately about, but they're still able to bring money in and to build wealth. Do any come to mind for you?
12:51Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, that structure, I am so excited to say, is called a social enterprise. And this conversation is a little nostalgic for me because it takes me back to finishing my degree. I studied, well, for my master's environment, politics and globalization for my undergrad social policy. So I finished school thinking I'm going to change the world. I'm going to start a nonprofit. I'm going to be poor and I'm going to be poor for a good cause. So these were my thoughts. Back to the church.
13:16Sean Pyles:This is the same line of thinking, right?
13:18Elizabeth Ayoola:Exactly. And on my bookshelf, I never did finish reading it. I have a book actually about social enterprises because I was determined alternatively to start a business where I could give back to society and not just use all of the profits on funding capitalism's goals. But anyway, to answer your question, Sean, there is actually an organization that I admire called Grayston Bakery. People might know about it. It's based in New York and it's a frequently cited example of a social enterprise. Now, I love their business model because they generate profit and then they reinvest the profit into community programs.
13:52Elizabeth Ayoola:And you know something else really cool about them, Sean?
13:55Sean Pyles:What?
Read the full transcript
13:55Elizabeth Ayoola:They have an open hiring concept, which means they don't look at resumes or do background checks. They just have a waiting list for people who want to work there. And I think that removes so many barriers for people who may be out of work for various reasons. So I found that pretty cool.
14:09Sean Pyles:I love that rethink on how you're hiring talent. We've seen a lot in recent months about how AI tools are being deployed in the hiring process in ways that are kind of discriminatory. So just to take people at face value and not get hung up on the resume of it all or deploying a tool that is further making this complicated for people to get hired, I think is really noble.
14:30Elizabeth Ayoola:You could also consider opening a clinic and then offering sliding scale fees to your clients. But of course, opening a clinic requires money. So there's still that money element and you need to make the money in order to make the impact.
14:42Sean Pyles:Right. And that could be a goal of them building their wealth, right? Would they maybe want to have a clinic one day, in which case they'll probably need to bring in more income now, maybe invest it for a period of time and then use those funds to open a clinic so they can make a greater impact, right? Like wealth can also be used to bring about the vision that you want in the world, not just for selfish purposes.
15:02Elizabeth Ayoola:It can. And I've seen people do it. It's very possible, including the lady on your shirt, Sean.
15:08Sean Pyles:Yes. In case people can't really get a good look here, Dolly's beautiful face. For people only listening, please check out the YouTube or Spotify video. I think we might even be on Apple podcast video at this point, but she's just the best lover.
15:21Elizabeth Ayoola:For some people, living their values might very well mean taking a pay cut, which we have seen is the case for Leanne. But for now, it's important to highlight that while making lots of money can help fast track your path to wealth. It's not the only way to build wealth. It might take more time. It might be slower, but you can do it earning less money.
15:41Sean Pyles:I'm also wondering with Leanne's situation, how much they're investing. We've kind of talked about this a little bit, but in a very real sense, are they contributing to any kind of workplace retirement plan? like a 403B or a 457B or a 401K, any of those, or an individual retirement account? Or do they have even a brokerage account that they're putting money in on a regular basis? These are going to be some of the most reliable ways to grow wealth over the long term. And I would love to hear them at least using these to some extent, even though, of course, that opens a whole nother can of worms around ethical investing, which I'm sure we'll get into in a bit.
16:14Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, my gosh, it could be such It's a rabbit hole you go down, right? But yes, Leanne, if you do have an investment account or retirement account with your employer and they're offering a match, please, please, please get that match. If you haven't started investing, that can be a wonderful place to start.
16:29Sean Pyles:Let's go a little more into environmental, social, and governance investing, ESG investing. It's a type of sustainable investing and is a way for those who care about social justice and want to support causes that they feel passionately about through their money. And also it's a way to invest while hopefully diverting money away or not into companies that don't align with your values. Although this does require some research, there are plenty of ESG funds out there that have companies that people might not be inclined to think of as ESG companies like maybe Amazon or Meta. So do your research, but it is possible to invest in companies ethically and also grow your money too.
17:05Sean Pyles:There's a bit of a misconception that ESG investing isn't profitable or successful when that's not the case.
17:11Elizabeth Ayoola:If you want to dive deeper into ESG investing, we do have resources on NerdWallet. If you're a beginner, we will link to an article in the show description. Well, Sean, I would say this is a topic that both you and I agree on. And that is that wanting money doesn't make you unethical and it doesn't make you greedy. And you can do good while also building well. Am I right? Do we agree?
17:33Sean Pyles:I agree. And again, I want to go back to the idea of a purity test here that people can put on themselves. It can be a little unrealistic or too harsh because we all have to make compromises every day. And as long as we're doing the best we can, that's what's really important. You're not going out of your way to harm people. You're not being negligent. It seems like Leanne is really doing a lot of good in this world. So I'd encourage them to try to build their wealth and look out for themselves. And, you know, if you have to make a compromise here or there, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person.
18:02Sean Pyles:It makes me think about a job I had shortly after college where it was kind of an odd situation where there was a consulting firm that hired me. to run a news website in a Bay Area city that was a bit of a news desert. And I was covering everything from city council to restaurant reviews to profiles of community leaders. I got a talk with this incredible woman, Betty Reed Soskin, who was the oldest park ranger at one point, just an incredible person. And the reason I was able to do this work is because the consulting firm that hired me was getting paid by a big oil company that was in the town.
18:34Sean Pyles:And they don't have the best reputation for a lot of reasons. And it felt a little bit icky sometimes. But I knew that not all of my money was coming from this company. It was coming from the consulting firm. And I was making an impact in the community and fulfilling a whole and kind of minimizing this news desert. So some days I felt better than others about it. But I did really take solace in the fact that I was helping people. And it also helped me build my life at a really early age to get to where NerdWallet eventually hired me because I was able to get good experience. And now look at all the good we're doing here.
19:08Sean Pyles:So that was a tradeoff I made really early on. And I feel OK about that.
19:11Elizabeth Ayoola:You can't have the good without the bad. It's impossible to just stick to one side completely. I think for me personally, I don't have any solid examples of saying I turned down a job because it completely didn't align with my values. But I know living in Nigeria, as you can imagine, there's lots of corruption. And a lot of my peers were taking jobs that included bribes. People had stolen government money and they were getting fake contracts just to get money and embezzle and do all these kind of fraudulent things. And I remember that time I was very strong on my ethics and I hated all the corruption going on.
19:44Elizabeth Ayoola:And I was like, well, I would never blatantly go into something that was corrupt that way. For the most part, I'm happy with the choices I've made in terms of my jobs and how they align with my values. This is not a NerdWallet plug, but I think we have some pretty solid values at NerdWallet that make me feel proud of where we work. and the work that we do, I think, really aligns with my personal values as well.
20:04Sean Pyles:Right. And this is an ongoing conversation that we all have to have with ourselves and with our loved ones throughout our careers. You know, what do you need to do to get by and put food on the table and build your long-term security financially? Sometimes that does require a trade-off, but if you can do work that helps people in the world or if you can find ways to help people outside of your work, that's what matters.
20:25Elizabeth Ayoola:On that note, we'll be back in a moment. Stay with us. Don't go anywhere.
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22:27Sean Pyles:Okay, Elizabeth, I don't know if you knew this, but 2026 is halfway over. Were you aware of that?
22:33Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah, because I'm always counting down until Christmas and my birthday. So I am aware. Yeah, I'm sure. I know. I'm looking at the calendar, counting the days.
22:41Sean Pyles:You've got your birthday fun growing by the day, I'm sure. Well, to me, this was a shock because I feel like it was just January and you and I were talking about our financial goals for the year. And we said that we would hold each other accountable. and not that we've been lazy co-hosts, but we haven't really talked about this since January. So I wanna hear - And now look at you, holding me accountable. I know, here we are. I'm always here for you. Maybe not as quickly as I should be, but eventually I'm here for you. So remind me, what were your financial goals and where are they now?
23:13Elizabeth Ayoola:Confession time, because we always tell the truth on this podcast. When I knew that you were gonna ask me that question, I had to go and look for my goals, Sean. I had to go and look for them.
23:23Sean Pyles:That doesn't inspire confidence, I got to say.
23:25Elizabeth Ayoola:It ends well, though. It doesn't start well, but it ends well. So for a recap, listeners who've been following us since January may know what my goals were, but I kept it simple. One was maintaining a 30 % to 40 % retirement rate.
23:39Sean Pyles:That's putting 30 % to 40 % of your income into retirement accounts.
23:42Elizabeth Ayoola:Yes, into investing.
23:44Sean Pyles:Sorry. That is very impressive.
23:45Elizabeth Ayoola:Thank you. I do try. I do try. So that includes maxing out my 401k and HSA. Those are my primary accounts I like to try to focus on. and then increasing my income was the second goal. And the third one was opening sinking funds, Tadon. I wanted to open sinking funds. I'm clapping over here because I'm so proud of you and I know that you did that. I did it, woo! You know, I'll let you, okay, do you wanna ask me a question or do you want me to reflect on my goals? What are we doing here?
24:12Sean Pyles:I want a little progress update on each one. We know you did your sinking funds. We talked about that recently. Again, very proud of you for that. Thank you. But around increasing your income, How's that going? Boo.
24:24Elizabeth Ayoola:Okay, fine. I got a little raise. Congratulations. Thank you, NerdWallet. Good work. Good work. So actually, technically, yes, right? But I think my primary goals around increasing my income was looking for maybe a side hustle to do as a way to increase my income. And can I just tell you the truth, Sean? I don't want to do any extra work right now. I don't. I enjoy my free time frolicking and hanging out with friends and family. I've been doing that a lot more lately. Spending time with my son. I just don't feel like doing extra labor right now.
24:56Sean Pyles:Hustle culture is way overrated. You have your needs met. You're saving a lot for retirement, or I guess I'll find out whether you actually are or not in a second, but it seems like you are. And you got to cherish this time with your son because I'm sure you know he's growing up so quickly. And yeah, this time is precious.
25:13Elizabeth Ayoola:So actually, I have no regrets about that. And I think it's just a reminder as well that we can set goals, but sometimes those goals no longer align, right? So it really is about where you are in life and it's okay to pivot or toss the goal all together. And hey, maybe next year will be a better year for that, or maybe it won't.
25:29Sean Pyles:Well, now I want to hear about maybe what's your most ambitious financial goal, which is saving between 30 and 40 % of your income and putting that into investments for your retirement and other investment accounts. What's going on there?
25:40Elizabeth Ayoola:So the truth is I wrote down the numbers for that goal somewhere, and I'm not sure how the numbers align. But what I can tell you is that I am still on track to max out my 401k and my HSA. Where I know I need to do more is I need to put more money into my SEP IRA. The good news is I can chunk those payments and catch up. And that's kind of what I did last year, actually. So I remember January to about the summertime, I was just busy, I don't know, YOLOing with my money. And then I was like, oh no, I need to put money in my SEP IRA. and then I started diligently putting money in there. So maybe a repeat of last year, but still I'm proud of my savings rate.
26:18Elizabeth Ayoola:I still am saving a big chunk of my income and that's because most of it is automated.
26:24Sean Pyles:I love that. Well, so maybe as a to-do, because I think that we could each get a little bit of homework from this, you could just get clear on that number. Is it 30 %? Is it 35? Is it 40? Where are you? Just so you have that in mind. I don't know. That's my homework I'm giving you as a co-host.
26:38Elizabeth Ayoola:I remember part of that goal was also being realistic about how much fun money I needed because last year I was not keeping it real. I was saying maybe I could live off of a certain amount and then every month I was overspending because I was not being generous with my own self. But anyway, once I do your homework and calculate, I may find that maybe that 30 % goes down to 28 % or whatever it is now that I have actually six months worth of looking at how I'm using my fun money. So, yeah, that number might change.
27:06Sean Pyles:It's that balance of planning for tomorrow, saving, investing for tomorrow, but living for today too, right? Like sometimes you need to go and blow$400 on shots at a Mexican restaurant. And that's just your prerogative.
27:18Elizabeth Ayoola:Sean, not you bringing up the past. I'm going to bring this up forever.
27:21Sean Pyles:I'm so sorry.
27:23Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh my God. But also not. It just broke my heart. But it's okay. Honestly, I'm laughing about it now. You learned a lesson from that. I did. I did. I did. I did. I did. But I am still on track to pay off my car in a few months. Very excited about that. I did up my payments by an extra hundred dollars as well. That's how bad I want to get rid of that car loan.
27:42Sean Pyles:I get it. I have like$5 ,000 left in my student loans and it's taking a lot of self-control just to not throw money at it. I know that's not a good use of$5 ,000 because it's a little bit, it's kind of beyond that threshold. If I hit 1 ,000, I might just knock it out. It's hanging over me. I almost regret checking my balance because for like six to nine months, I just didn't. And I kind of forgot how much I owed. And now I can't get that number out of my head. So I I really understand knowing how much debt you have and wanting to be rid of it.
28:10Elizabeth Ayoola:Isn't that tough? Because I think I have like around$3 ,000 left and same. I'm like, why don't I just pay it off now? But like you said, the interest rate is low, especially on my loan. It's better to just stick to the plan and pace it and pay off those payments gradually.
28:23Sean Pyles:Keep your liquidity. Keep that cash in your account.
28:25Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, Sean, you know how my goals are going. So actually, you have to give me a score. Give me a feedback. How am I doing? Am I doing okay? Am I? What am I doing? I'm going to give you a solid A minus. Oh, I thought you were going to say a C. Thank you.
28:43Sean Pyles:No, no, you're doing great. I would have given you a full A if you knew exactly what your percentage was, but that's your homework. That's okay. I like that you're adapting to your needs as they're coming up. You're not being too punishing on yourself. You are spending time with your loved ones. That's so important. So you're doing great.
29:00Elizabeth Ayoola:All right, it's your turn. You are in the hot seat now. What are your goals? remind me.
29:04Sean Pyles:My goals were really simple starting out this year because last year I had way too many financial goals. I mean, I was getting married. I had my honeymoon. I was just in really diligent save and then spend mode. And so going into this year, I was just reentering a new kind of save mode where I had depleted some of my savings intentionally because I've been saving for this wedding that had happened and same as my honeymoon. And I wanted to get to a higher number just in my savings across different categories. My emergency fund is thankfully in a good place, but the world seems so shaky. I decided I wanted to up that a little bit going into this year.
29:41Sean Pyles:And so I did that, which was nice. And I said, I think I said I wanted to spend more money going out to dinner with friends.
29:50Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh yeah, you did say that.
29:51Sean Pyles:And I have done that for sure, almost to the point where I might need to reel it in just a little bit because I love to be generous with my friends, but at a certain point, got to keep saving. So I've been able to do it pretty well. I've been really fortunate, knock on wood, that life has been fairly stable so far this year. And I haven't had big expenses, although I think I'm cursing myself saying this out loud right now, knocking as we're recording this. And I'm just grateful for this moment of kind of calm in my life where I can continue to save and settle into my new married life. I've talked about how I'm preparing to run around a mountain in August, which is coming up really fast.
30:30Sean Pyles:So I probably should have allocated more of my budget for all of the running gear that I didn't know I was going to be so susceptible to buying because I'm just getting targeted ads for like cool running shorts and shoes all the time. I'm so falling into like running aesthetic. I bought myself a pair of Oakleys recently and just a completely aesthetic. And let me tell you, they look so fly. I feel like something out of a video game.
30:56Elizabeth Ayoola:I'm the wrong person to talk to about that because I'm going to encourage you to get them, okay? I love a good workout aesthetic, okay?
31:03Sean Pyles:Oh, yeah. I need to share more of my workout outfit looks. So I guess for those who want to get more into our parasocial relationship here, follow us on Instagram. I'm at Sean triple underscore piles. And Elizabeth, what's your handle?
31:15Elizabeth Ayoola:The underscore Elizabeth underscore A-Y-O-L-A. Don't tell me it's too long, but it's my name basically with a the and some underscores.
31:23Sean Pyles:The Elizabeth Iola on Instagram. That's right. Well, I'll be posting more of my workout fits as well as many things from my garden because that's all I do on Instagram, apparently. I think that that helps me feel better about my purchases is showing it to the world and whether people want to or not, they will bear witness. So join me. Do you have any homework or a grade to give me based on what I just told you?
31:46Elizabeth Ayoola:I did want to ask you actually about the restaurant part. So are you going to new restaurants, repeat restaurants? I feel like, Correct me if I'm wrong. You said you wanted to explore some new restaurants around Portland.
31:54Sean Pyles:I have been exploring new restaurants. And so I've been doing that. But I also have these go-tos that I keep returning to time and again. There's a place in my neighborhood that is like kind of part beer house, Cajun restaurant, and they share a kitchen with a sushi restaurant. And so you can get sushi from the sushi place as you're getting a really good beer and like Cajun tater tots. And so my friends and I end up there at least once a week. And then there's this amazing Italian spot that I go to all the time that just has the freshest noodles in town and really good prices. And at this point, everyone who works there knows me and my friends, and it just feels like community.
32:30Sean Pyles:So I go back there because I can't beat the noodles, and I love everyone that works there. I kind of have fallen into habits of just spending at the same places while dabbling in new places every so often.
32:39Elizabeth Ayoola:Obviously, you don't have to tell me the numbers, but you did mention that you feel like you might have been overdoing it with the eating out. Do you have a set budget for how much you would be eating out this year, how much more you would be going over your budget or expanding it?
32:53Sean Pyles:The honest answer is no. It's coming from my fun money. Yeah. Okay. You're right. You're right. You're right. I think if I could do one thing, because that's been kind of a squish point in my budget where I just I know something is kind of going on there and I haven't wanted to look at it straight in the face yet. My homework that I'm giving myself is that I'm going to go back through my past three months of spending and see how much I have put into different restaurants, how much I've been spending on meals. It's a little bit tricky because sometimes I'll just put my card down for my friends, right?
33:25Sean Pyles:So I have to realize that if I see a$200 tab, it's not me spending all of that. I'm getting it back via Venmo. But I should know that number just to stay on top of it. But that said, I do like to be generous, just like dear Dolly here, just to bring it always back to Dolly. And sometimes I will cover for my friends. And I think that's OK. I do as well. I have friends who have a range of incomes. If I want to go out to a nice meal with them and they can't afford it necessarily, I'm OK treating them. But I also need to do that within the confines of a responsible budget. So that's the balance.
33:58Elizabeth Ayoola:We both have that thing. When I go out to eat with my friends, too, I love being like, I got it. It's fine. And just covering everyone's bill. But I also have to remember I can't do that all the time. And it reminds me, but it is nice to do it sometimes. I just had such a pleasant memory, Sean. One time I went out to eat with Ayo, maybe two years ago, maybe a year ago. I don't know. It doesn't matter. Timeline. And I was about to pay the bill. And some wonderful lady, lady, if you ever watch this and remember my face, thank you, paid for me and Ayo's food. I didn't know her from anywhere. Very sweet.
34:29Elizabeth Ayoola:Very kind. And little things like that just remind me how important it is to just do random acts of kindness, whether it's with your friends, a stranger, because that just that warmed my heart. That was such a kind thing of her to do.
34:41Sean Pyles:Well, maybe we can both have that as homework that we'll share. We'll each do some random acts of financial kindness to help people in this world.
34:48Elizabeth Ayoola:So we're adding warmer goals to our list then?
34:50Sean Pyles:Yes. And listeners, if you have been making progress on your financial goals in January, or you may be low-key half forgot them, but are really committed to doing it right, let us know. We always love to hear what you're doing with your money and how it's helping you live your life.
35:03Elizabeth Ayoola:Yes, we love hearing all your stories. So please send us an email, leave a comment, send us a text. We want to hear from you.
35:09Sean Pyles:That's all we have for this episode. Remember that we're here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. It's 901-730-NERD. You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com.
35:24Elizabeth Ayoola:Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app that includes Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes.
35:31Sean Pyles:Here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.
35:41Elizabeth Ayoola:This episode is produced by Tess Vigland, Hillary Georgie help with editing. Eve Krogman edits our audio and our video. And a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all of their help.
35:51Sean Pyles:And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.
35:58Sean Pyles:Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made$15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months, $90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.
From the publisher
Learn how to build wealth while staying true to your social values and choosing meaningful work over maximum pay.
Can you be both wealthy and ethical? Hosts Sean Pyles, CFP®, and Elizabeth Ayoola tackle a question from a nurse who earns less than her peers by choosing to work at a public safety-net hospital and deliberately charges minimal fees to teach wilderness medicine to nonprofits. They explore the tension people in service-oriented careers often feel when it comes to building personal wealth, including which strategies could help you earn more without abandoning your mission. They also discuss which financial tools — from retirement plans designed for public-sector workers to ways of investing that align with your values — could help you grow wealth while staying true to what you stand for. Plus: an accountability update from Sean and Elizabeth on their January goals.
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