Feeling Burned Out? How to Know When to Quit Your Job — and What to Do First

7:16Sean Pyles:Life is hard enough as it is. Find little moments of happiness anywhere you can get them.

7:19Elizabeth Ayoola:And because we are maybe twin flames, I also have a fortune cookie, but I keep it in my car. Oh, that's so sweet. What does it say? I wish I could remember. But it's something about.

7:29Sean Pyles:But it brings you a little bit of joy every time you see it.

7:31Elizabeth Ayoola:Exactly. So it's something about art and creativity and happiness. So that's all the things.

7:35Sean Pyles:And, you know, in some ways it's great that you forget it because each time it's like it's new to you.

7:39Elizabeth Ayoola:I just love you. Thank you. Thank you.

7:41Sean Pyles:Yeah. So, okay. That's my wallet. I don't think there's anything really embarrassing. I'm pretty proud of the contents of my wallet.

7:46Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah. You have your different cards that you're using for different purposes. You have your Metrobust card. And I think you look like a responsible adult based on your wallet. Thank you.

7:55Sean Pyles:I agree. Now let's turn the tables. And what's in your wallet? What is your wallet?

8:02Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, I would like to start off by saying my wallet is invisible. Because I do not carry one when I travel.

8:08Sean Pyles:What are you talking about? You don't, we are traveling to Scottsdale, Arizona for work and you did not bring a wallet?

8:13Elizabeth Ayoola:No, that is my practice. So I take two cards with me. It's usually my ID and then one of my credit cards. That's all I take. I could never do that.

8:21Sean Pyles:It's so chaotic, Elizabeth. I know, but I just love it. But what if you lose your credit card? What if you lose your ID? What if you need something to hold your hotel card in?

8:28Elizabeth Ayoola:I'm so sorry to be a tech forward girly, but you know, we have online banking. We have Zelle for someone to send me money. We have a cash app. There are so many avenues for me to get money and get myself out of that mess. And guess what it would make for a good story, okay?

8:42Sean Pyles:That's true. But for me, I'm just, I want a backup plan for my backup plan. And not having a wallet does not allow for that.

8:47Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, I like to live life on the edge. So, hey, just let me live a little.

8:50Sean Pyles:It makes me so anxious, but I'm glad it works for you.

8:53Elizabeth Ayoola:It works for me. So, I will tell y 'all, you know, I'm a TMI queen. So, I'll tell you what I have here. Yes, your two cards.

8:59Sean Pyles:Tell us what you have.

9:00Elizabeth Ayoola:So, I have my Amex Platinum. And then I have my driver's license, which I recently got because I moved to Texas last year because I tell y 'all my business. Y 'all might know.

9:08Sean Pyles:You're an annual fee girly because that's not cheap.

9:11Elizabeth Ayoola:Do you know what? I am an annual fee girly and I'm trying to change that. So I have in my actual wallet, I think all of my credit cards have annual fees. So I need to fix that. And I have four.

9:21Sean Pyles:That sounds expensive.

9:21Elizabeth Ayoola:It is expensive.

9:22Sean Pyles:And you know where your wallet is at home.

9:24Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, so you guys might stone me for this, but I keep my wallet in my car at all times. No, Elizabeth. I told you. I know. Danger, danger, danger.

9:34Sean Pyles:Someone could just smash and grab and then there go all your credit cards.

9:37Elizabeth Ayoola:I know. So let me tell you the logic.

9:39Sean Pyles:And now also, guess what? Everyone listening knows where you keep your wallet right now.

9:42Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah, but thankfully no one knows where I live. Not yet. I know I overshare, but I'm not sharing that. No, but I do keep it in my car because I can be forgetful. And I hate to be the girl who gets to the grocery store and is like, oh, no, I don't have any cards. And I do not use Apple Pay or all those other things. So I do keep it in my car in a, I think, quote, unquote, hidden place. But yes, there is a risk. If someone breaks into my car, all my cards will be gone.

10:04Sean Pyles:But why don't you just keep it in your house where it's safer? I don't understand.

10:08Elizabeth Ayoola:So I'm trying to save myself time here, right? So I might need the different cards. Let me tell you the other things I have. I have my HSA card. So I have a health savings account. So I use that to pay for medical expenses, my debit card for my high deductible health care plan. And what else do I have? Other debit cards. And that's it, really. Just a whole bunch of cards, you know, credit cards.

10:26Sean Pyles:So you're using your car as like an administrative storage space instead of like a desk drawer.

10:31Elizabeth Ayoola:And let me tell you something else. Since I've been learning how to be more savvy with my cards, I swap the ones I have in my wallet at different times of the month. So sometimes my grocery cards are in there, depending on my closing date for my cards, because I try to pay all my cards off in full. If I've spent to my maximum on one card, then I switch to another and that goes in, you know, so I just do a rotation and it all happens in my car.

10:53Sean Pyles:Yeah, I'm just hearing chaos.

10:56Elizabeth Ayoola:But that's how I like to live. It's fun.

10:58Sean Pyles:And it works for you. And that's fine. We talk all the time about it's not exactly what you do. It's a system that works for you. And you have one that works for you. It is not for me at all. But I'm glad that is your truth. And we are bonded by our shared fortune cookies. We are.

11:10Elizabeth Ayoola:We are.

11:11Sean Pyles:So a lot of times parents will have photos of their kids in their wallet. Do you have that? I know it's a little bit maybe antiquated at this point.

11:18Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, I do still like physical photos. I actually just printed some out. So not antiquated to me. However, I do not have one in my wallet. But I do have several in my car. So it's essentially in your wallet.

11:28Sean Pyles:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just floating around because your car is your wallet. That's what I'm gathering.

11:32Elizabeth Ayoola:Wow. Look at the connection you just made there. This is why conversation is important. Exactly. My car is my wallet. You're right.

11:39Sean Pyles:Do you ever have loose cash just floating around your car?

11:41Elizabeth Ayoola:Do you have cash in your wallet? I think for the first time I had a dollar. That's it. There's just one lonely dollar in there. And now you can't really buy anything with a dollar, can you?

11:49Sean Pyles:Not much, no.

11:50Elizabeth Ayoola:Let me tell you a quick little side story since I like a side quest. We were at a restaurant with my son the other day. And I said, you know, if you finish that crossword puzzle, I thought about the dollar in my car, give you a dollar. And then he's like, I need time to think about it. He was not interested in that dollar. He was like, maybe if you give me 10 or 20.

12:06Sean Pyles:With inflation, the kids just need more and more.

12:09Elizabeth Ayoola:So the dollar's still in my car. He did not do the crossword puzzle and he was not interested in the one dollar.

12:13Sean Pyles:Well, maybe you need to keep more cash in your car. Maybe, maybe. Oh, and by the way, our producer is cracking up right next to us right now. You hear a random lady laughing. so elizabeth one last question is there anything weird in your wallet slash car slash wallet trying to combine these two words well this is a this is a loaded question so i would

12:36Elizabeth Ayoola:say the weirdest thing is is where i stash my wallet things in my car yeah absolute chaos again it is chaos but is there anything weird in my wallet not quite but if we're extending that to the car yes probably this little candle that's melting that my dad gave me for safety so he is

12:51Sean Pyles:It's melting because it's just hot in your car. It's not lit in your car.

12:53Elizabeth Ayoola:It's been in there for years. No.

12:55Sean Pyles:As long as you don't have an open flame in the car that is your wallet.

12:58Elizabeth Ayoola:No.

12:58Sean Pyles:I would be really concerned for you.

13:00Elizabeth Ayoola:I hope not. No, no, no, no, no. It's just a little candle and it's shrinking and shrinking and soon it will disappear. So it has been in my car for maybe like four years now.

13:07Sean Pyles:That sounds really cute. Yeah. But it's loving because he wants me to be safe. Another little sentimental piece.

13:11Elizabeth Ayoola:Exactly.

13:12Sean Pyles:Love that.

13:13Elizabeth Ayoola:All right, listeners. We want to know what you have in your wallet too, okay? So if you're like me and your wallet is in your car, please tell me so that Sean can stop thinking that I'm so weird because I know there's someone else out there who lives like me. And maybe you're more like Sean and you have just very normal things in your wallet. We want to know. Send us pictures. Send us a voicemail. Text. Email. It's a podcast at nerdwallet.com.

13:35Sean Pyles:Or you can text us or leave us a voicemail at the nerd hotline, which is 901-730-6373. 901-730-NERD.

13:44Elizabeth Ayoola:Okay, Sean. That was super fun. And I really hope listeners will send us videos of what's in their wallets. And if you're listening, yes, I'm talking about you.

13:52Sean Pyles:And people, don't look in your wallets ahead of time. We want the pure, unfiltered discovery of what is in your wallet like we did. Send us what's in your wallet to podcast at nerdwallet.com. Meantime, we also want your money questions. So leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. It's 901-730-NERD.

14:11Elizabeth Ayoola:All right. Let's get to this episode's money question segment. That's up next. Stay with us. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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16:14Sean Pyles:We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode's question comes from a listener named Angel who sent us an email. Here it is as read by our producer, Tess Vigland. Hi, Sean and Elizabeth. I'm 29 without kids, and I moved into my fiance's small college town because we are getting married soon. I moved about a year ago and went from an in-office to remote position in tech. It pays really well, but the remote aspect has taken a toll on my mental sanity and has ultimately led to burnout. Moving back is not an option because my future husband doesn't have the option to work remotely, and he also has a high-paying job, much higher-paying job, although not in tech.

16:52Sean Pyles:We individually have upwards of half a million saved up each, and I want to take a pause on my personal fire goals to address my career crisis. I want to either go back to school or get some licenses to complement the real estate business we've been expanding. Seems like a no-brainer to me, but my future husband is really pushing back on the situation. He seems worried that I won't be able to get back my current remote position or something similar if I leave and regret it. He suggests quiet quitting, or in other words, being a low performer as I invest myself into the next opportunity. I'd rather be clear with my employer and start my new journey with a clean slate and no burnout or burned bridges.

17:31Sean Pyles:Your advice is much appreciated in this critical moment. Angel.

17:35Elizabeth Ayoola:Wow, Angel has a big dilemma here, and I think it's a relevant one. So let's start the conversation by getting into what quiet quitting is. So as Angel briefly explained, quiet quitting is about doing the bare minimum at work. So that means not going above and beyond, not breaking your back for your employer. Instead, you're simply meeting your basic job requirements, but you're not fully engaged at work. Now, I came across a Gallup study and it found that employee engagement in the U.S. fell to its lowest level in a decade in 2024. Only 31 % of employees were engaged. Now, I don't know if you guys remember back in 2022 when the trend first blew up on social media.

18:13Elizabeth Ayoola:but Gallup also found that quiet quitters made up about 50 % of the workforce then.

18:19Sean Pyles:You know, this number doesn't surprise me. I feel like a lot of my friends and family have had phases of quiet quitting where they think, okay, this month I'm really burnt out. I have things going on in my personal life. The world is on fire. I can't be expected to give 110 % at my job all day, every day, given everything else is going on in my life and in the world. And I understand that. I think that sometimes it can make sense to step back and not be the overachiever. And I say this as someone who is a chronic overachiever and holds myself to a pretty high standard at my job.

18:49Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, my goodness. I can relate. And I think it's important to remember we're not robots. So yes, we have X amount of work output that we're expected to do, but we're humans and we have feelings and things going on.

18:59Sean Pyles:Yeah. Have you ever quiet quit, Elizabeth?

19:01Elizabeth Ayoola:Why would I tell you that? Oh, my God.

19:04Sean Pyles:We're saying on your employer's podcast, but in previous roles, maybe, or have you had a time where you could really at least relate to someone quiet quitting?

19:11Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, I can definitely relate. Not saying it was ever me, but I can relate to someone I know and a friend of a friend of a friend quiet quitting. Absolutely. Because they were really tired and burnt out and they were underpaid as well.

19:21Sean Pyles:Yeah, you got to look out for number one.

19:23Elizabeth Ayoola:That's right. All right, let's pivot to the listener's question now. Aja wants to know whether it makes more sense to quiet quit while they pursue other interests like going back to school or getting a real estate license. But there's a big but. But their partner is pushing back because they think it will be challenging to get another remote opportunity.

19:41Sean Pyles:It seems like Angel is actually in a pretty decent position to potentially quit or quiet quit. I mean, we don't know what their latest performance review is like at work. But financially, they have upwards of half a million saved at 29 years old with no kids. So they are well ahead what most folks are doing and where they are at that stage in life. The average retirement savings for people under 35 is just over$49 ,000. and the median amount is just under$19 ,000. So again, doing really, really well here, but that doesn't mean that leaving their job entirely is the best idea.

20:14Elizabeth Ayoola:I agree with that, Sean. And I also suspect that Angel and their partner may be saving aggressively considering they want to achieve FIRE, who I know Angel said specifically she had FIRE goals. For anyone who doesn't know what that is, that's financial independence, retire early. And we love that for Angel. But their concern seems to really be about wanting to give work 100 % or flat out quit versus going down the road of quiet quitting. So let's explore the pros and cons of quiet quitting. You go first, Sean, name some pros.

20:40Sean Pyles:Okay, well, a main pro that comes to mind is better work-life balance and less burnout. I think that's something that everyone should strive for. Also having less stress in your life. There's this pressure that some people put on themselves or people's employers put on them to be constantly performing and outperforming, maybe working more than eight hours a day and not really having a lot of room for other aspects of your life, not being able to turn off work, you have to respond to Slack messages at 8 p.m. at night and quiet quitting would allow you to maybe have some remove from that. Another perk that comes to mind of quiet quitting is that you can focus on just your main responsibilities without, again, this added pressure of having to go above and beyond and maybe becoming the most efficient, productive all-star employee, which isn't realistic a lot of the time.

21:27Elizabeth Ayoola:It's not, it's not. As a recovering, still like to try to achieve high, But as a recovering person who puts too much pressure on their self to constantly be overperforming, it does feel nice to have a better balance these days.

21:38Sean Pyles:Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of the cons here, Elizabeth. What stands out as a downside to quiet quitting?

21:43Elizabeth Ayoola:I think Angel pointed out a pretty big downside, which is that it could negatively impact your image at work. If you already have set the standard of being someone who is maybe an overperformer or just, you know, goes above and beyond, a sudden or dramatic change in your output could reflect negatively on you, especially if you're not keeping the same quality of work as you were before. It could also impact your ability, I would think, maybe to get a strong referral in your next role. Referrals can be really important. And if you are underperforming because you're quiet quitting, we're not saying that you have to underperform to quiet quit.

22:17Elizabeth Ayoola:But if you do become a lot more slack, then you may not get a strong referral if you need one for another role. And a big one that stands out to me is that it could lead to you feeling unfulfilled at work. I think when you enjoy or are passionate about something, you usually give it 100 percent, right, because you like doing it. But if you're quiet quitting and you've also lost interest in your job or the things that light you up, then it means that, like the study said, you're probably not going to be fully engaged. And then you just may feel really unfulfilled, which can suck.

22:45Sean Pyles:I get that. But I think it's also a good idea for folks to find fulfillment outside of their work. And if people are stepping back from their main job, they're quite quitting, that can lead them to maybe pursue enrichment elsewhere through hobbies or volunteering or relationships. Because we are not our jobs. Our jobs are a thing that we hopefully love to do and do it well. But it shouldn't be your entire life.

23:09Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, I completely agree with that. And I think at one point I had to realize that I needed to get a life too. So that's why I'm painting and riding my pink bike and doing other things that bring me joy outside of work, right? I think another alternative or an alternative to quiet quitting, since Angel seems to be worried about burning bridges and their reputation, is actively looking for ways to reduce their workload. What are your thoughts on that, Sean?

23:32Sean Pyles:I think that's smart because they would be able to sustain their job, but not hopefully feel as pressured or stressed out or overworked as it seems like they are currently. So some ways people could do that would be maybe utilizing AI. We see it everywhere in our lives. How can it take some menial tasks off your plate? Also, maybe talk with your manager and say, hey, I'm having a pretty stressful season in my life. Are there certain things that I might be able to step back from while still meeting my expectations so that you all are in alignment on what's expected of you and you're doing your job the way you need to, but you aren't doing it in a way that's not sustainable for you right now?

24:10Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah, I love, love, love that. Something that just came to mind as you were talking as well is considering a lateral move within the company. I know that's not always feasible for everyone, but maybe you can find a role that's a little less tasking or stressful for you or a new opportunity that fits your lifestyle if you've just had some lifestyle changes that's making work more stressful. Another one is negotiating, outsourcing repetitive tasks that are not core to your job. So I know some companies sometimes have contractors, for example. So maybe you can speak to a manager or someone at your company to see if some of your work can be essentially given to contractors.

24:45Sean Pyles:All right, well, let's move on to the last part of Angel's question and Angel's partners' concerns. And I think they're pretty valid. Recent economic data points to a slowing labor market, and we're seeing that it's taking longer for workers to find a new job. And we don't know where the economy will be by the time Angel is ready to get back to work. So quitting without having anything lined up is a really risky move for a lot of people, and it's one that I'm pretty wary of.

25:09Elizabeth Ayoola:On that note, we're going to bring on an expert in quitting without a plan B. And you guys are not going to be able to guess, but it happens to be our producer, Tess Vigeland. She's back again. Hey, Tess. Welcome to the front of the mic.

25:23Sean Pyles:Hey, thanks, guys. Am I going to be editing myself after we're done here? I think you know the answer is yes. So the reason we wanted to bring you on is that you literally wrote the book on quitting without a backup plan. is called Leap, Leaving a Job with No Plan B to Find the Career and Life You Really Want. So tell us, why did you quit? What job did you have? And what was it like quitting with no other job secured? Well, I had my dream job. I hosted a national show for NPR, and I was there for almost a dozen years. And I hosted a personal finance show, which might be familiar to you you guys.

26:03Sean Pyles:And so I knew that you never, ever, ever, ever, ever leave a job without having something else lined up. I preached it on my own show. But about 11 years in, there were just some things that were happening at work, things that were said at work that, you know, I was leaving in tears way more often than I should have. And I just reached a point where I said, I've had enough. I can't do this anymore. And I went and sat in my backyard in Pasadena, California and said, I got to go. And I did.

26:38Elizabeth Ayoola:Wow, that is so brave. And you guys may or may not know I have quit multiple jobs, but never without one lined up. I will say that. So I think that takes a lot of courage to do. So well done to you, Tess. Thank you, Elizabeth. I do want to know how you manage that financially, though. I think that's my biggest scare of quitting a job without another one lined up. So did you already have savings in place?

26:59Sean Pyles:No. You didn't have savings? Well, I mean, I had savings, but I certainly didn't have, again, even though I was hosting a personal fight I'd show, Dr. Heal Thyself, I had not really thought about doing this. So I hadn't really planned for it. It was very much a spur of the moment decision, which, you know, we're not supposed to do in our lives, but sometimes you can't help yourself. I was married at the time, so we had a two-income family, and that made a difference. I also knew that because I had a long career behind me that I probably was going to be able to get some freelance work, contracting work, which is what ended up happening.

27:42Sean Pyles:And then I ended up getting a book contract. So that took up some of my time and added to the bank account. But again, I would say do as I say, not as I did, and have that emergency fund, have that financial backup plan ready. But I would also would say that Angel is already way ahead on this with a really good chunk of savings lined up, right? So maybe this isn't the primary consideration for them. And it seems like you went a much more unconventional path than Angel, who's planning on staying in the college town where their partner has a job. you went and traveled around Asia in countries that were pretty affordable to stay in.

28:20Sean Pyles:So I'm sure that helped financially, right? It did for sure. Yeah, I ended up about three years after leaving my job. And after the book came out, I went and just traveled for about three years, as you said, throughout Southeast Asia and the Middle East and kind of did a first retirement is what I call it. And then came back to the workforce. Over those three years before you went to Asia, were you doing kind of odd jobs here and there? Like you mentioned you had experience and some connections. So were you able to bring some money in? It's not like you were not working entirely. Yes. I mean, in fact, I ended up bringing in almost as much as what my salary had been.

28:57Sean Pyles:I was very fortunate that, you know, because of my name and a long career, people wanted to work with me. So, yeah, in fact, it wasn't even odd jobs. It was a lot of very high profile jobs and, of course, becoming a book author.

29:09Elizabeth Ayoola:That's incredible.

29:10Sean Pyles:I was going to ask about benefits like health care, but at this time you were married, so I assume you were on your partner's health care. Correct. Okay. Because if you're doing this and you're single, health care is really expensive. Absolutely. That should be a big consideration if you're making a move like this.

29:25Elizabeth Ayoola:I can relate with the freelancing. It comes in so handy. I know when I've been in between jobs, freelancing has saved my life. So always good to have transferable skills.

29:33Sean Pyles:It is. And one thing that I found and that, you know, Angel might want to consider is that when you've been doing something for a long time, I mean, they're only 29, so it hasn't been a really long time. But you kind of forget how good you are at something because it's become just part of your DNA. They've said they're in tech, maybe they're a coder. It becomes not difficult for you and you don't realize how valuable your skills are because they're just what you do day in and day out. So it's something to really think about is the skills that you have that you might not recognize are really valuable outside of what you do.

30:08Sean Pyles:Tess, for your book, you interviewed dozens of other people who had left their jobs without having another one lined up. What were some of the common lessons that came out of those conversations? There were some surprisingly common ones, even though obviously everybody has their own story. But first and foremost, pay attention to your body's signals because your body will tell you when you need to leave a job. and for me my hair started falling out and there was no no other reason for that to be happening a lot of some people had uh back problems that were new some people started getting headaches so your body is going to tell you if you are so stressed out that you need to make a significant change it's also time to go when you have too much self-respect to stay so this is really more about when you're in a situation where you feel unappreciated, where you feel like you're not getting the kind of good attention that you've earned in your career.

31:07Sean Pyles:So that's just something to kind of keep track of as well. It's also past time to go if you're starting to ask yourself if you should go, because we as human beings, we delay stuff like this because of fear, because we're worried that it's not going to work out. So by the time we make this decision, by the time we start asking ourselves if this is something we should do, we're way into that process. Yeah. That makes me think about your experience where these things can happen very slowly and then very suddenly. Exactly. You've had this long buildup of accumulating stress in your body. And then you just said, this is it.

31:39Sean Pyles:I'm done. I have to be out today. Yep. One of the other commonalities was, of course, save, save, save. Don't do what I did. save for the eventuality of something like this. Call it a freedom fund because that's really what it is. It's the freedom to make a move like this at any point, at any time in your life. And then again, kind of what Sean was talking about earlier, get yourself an identity outside of what you do for a living because that's one of the hardest parts of all this is that we particularly in America, we identify ourselves so much with what we do for work.

32:15Elizabeth Ayoola:Absolutely. And that's not all we are.

32:18Sean Pyles:And so if you have something outside of your work that's important to you, that means something to you, that can make a move like this much, much easier.

32:29Elizabeth Ayoola:I will say I knew someone who retired early and they didn't have an identity outside of work. And guess what they did, guys? Died. They went back to work. Oh, jeez. Sorry. They went back to work. The morbidity jumped out. We saw that. They went back to work, so now they're working again because they don't know what to do with themselves.

32:48Sean Pyles:Yeah, I think it's really common in retirement. And when you're facing a decision like Angel is, it can kind of feel almost, you know, kind of like I described it as a first retirement. So that is absolutely a concern.

32:59Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, I have a question, Tess, before we get ready to wrap up. Was it hard to hop back into the market and find a job because that's Angel's spouse's main concern here?

33:09Sean Pyles:Given the numbers that Sean cited earlier about the current job market, I think that's something that you absolutely have to look at as part of the decision-making process. That said, for me, it wasn't difficult because, again, I had a long career. I had a long history of work, so I was able to get contract work fairly easily. But that's not always the case. And again, your mileage may vary, but it's always better to prepare and have that emergency fund, have that freedom fund ready for you in an eventuality like this. It seems like part of this conversation is also industry specific, too. It is.

33:55Sean Pyles:You've been working in media for a while. When you were getting back into media after having had your first mini retirement, it was a different landscape than it is now. So it might be harder to do something like you pulled off in today's day and age. 100%. You want to take a look at the economy. You want to take a look at your job market. You want to take a look at your industry. But don't let those keep you from making a decision that is best for you, for your health, and for your family. Yeah, it's like you have to be informed, but you also have to do what's right for your heart, too. Exactly.

34:27Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah, everything's not all about money, even though we're on a podcast about money. Right, right. Tess, you have dropped so many gems. So to wrap it up nicely in a nice little bow, can you tell us what advice you would give Angel as they consider making their own career leap? What's one strong piece of advice that you would give them? Oh, just one.

34:45Sean Pyles:You know, one thing that we haven't talked about outside of the emergency fund making decisions that are best for you is, if possible, give yourself a little bit of time between when When you leap, when you make this decision, and when you go on to the next thing, give yourself a little bit of room to breathe and reflect on what you really want to be doing. Most people don't do that. Again, when they quit, they're either going immediately into the next job, or even if they quit without having something else lined up, they're spending all that time busy, busy, busy working to find that next thing.

35:24Sean Pyles:and they're not giving themselves the opportunity for a little bit of self-reflection. And I found for myself and for all of the folks that I talked to for the book, that really was important. And it brought out some things in those decision-making processes, particularly around what kind of career do you want to have, what kind of life do you want to have, that you need a little bit of kind of silent time, not actual silence but it's like non-work time to figure that out for yourself so even if it's two weeks like just give yourself that time to reflect and to gather yourself and figure out what you want to do and then get ready for that next step well test thank you so much for talking with us it's so nice to have you on this side of the microphone even though we talk to you all day every day right oh it's been fun guys thanks for having me on it has been and because

36:19Elizabeth Ayoola:I'm extra test. Are you for quiet quitting? Yes or no?

36:22Sean Pyles:I would say no. I don't think it's helpful. I think as you guys outlined earlier, it's just going to make you feel crappy. You're not going to want to be where you are. Your boss is probably going to notice. As Elizabeth said, you might burn some bridges, which is the very last thing you want to do. So just make a decision. Don't just Just draw it out for yourself. I just can't imagine that that's really what you want to do and what anyone else is going to want you to do. This is where we disagree, Tess. Because I actually think quiet quitting can be really helpful. I think it can allow people to compartmentalize their work and not have it consume their entire identity.

37:03Sean Pyles:And if someone is feeling so stressed out the way that you were, I mean, sometimes people have really difficult bosses and it's really hard to get away or they're working these really difficult hours and it's just not totally feasible to compartmentalize it in this way. But if you have the ability to do so, I think that can be a nice way to get the best of both worlds where you have an income coming in. You're stepping a little bit away from your work and you can have maybe an hour or two a day where you were heads down working to focus on what you might want to do next. So I think there's a time and a place for it, but you just don't want to get caught by your boss.

37:34Sean Pyles:Yeah. I mean, I see what you're saying. And I suppose part of that is also, as we were talking before, like it's it's industry based. Like, can you do that? There's Yeah, absolutely. No way I could have done that in the job that I was in. Yeah. And to what extent are you going to take it? Right. I mean, what you've outlined, Sean, I think probably really makes sense. But if you're just going to sit there and be a low performer, yeah, that's not going to do anybody any good. I think quiet quitting is biding time. It's just delaying the inevitable because you have to make a decision, but it can allow you to get a little bit of wiggle room while you map out what you might want to do.

38:07Sean Pyles:Wiggle room is always helpful. All right. Well, thank you, Tess.

38:11Elizabeth Ayoola:Good debate, guys. All right. Tess, we would love for you to do the honors of wrapping us up. Oh, do I get to say the phone number?

38:21Sean Pyles:Yes. The nerd hotline is all yours, Tess. All right. You know, I should have this memorized, but I'm going to read it off the script. And that is all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we're here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-N-E-R-D. You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com. Oh, that was fun. And that was awesome.

38:53Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, thank you so much. You're welcome.

38:56Sean Pyles:It's like you've done this before or something.

39:00Elizabeth Ayoola:All right, listeners, join us next time to hear about how to budget for irregular expenses. Me and Sean will be calling ourselves out on that episode, so make sure you listen. Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes.

39:17Sean Pyles:Here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

39:27Elizabeth Ayoola:This episode was produced by Tess Vigelin, who was also the star of the show. Hilary Georgie helps with editing. Nick Kershmi mixed our audio. and a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all of their help.

39:38Sean Pyles:And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.