Tax Season Scams and Identity Theft Red Flags, Plus a 401(k) and IRA Rollover Lightning Round

11:23Sean Pyles:Yeah, I think I want to go analog and have my passwords written in a notebook because I always fall into this internet password doom loop. Or if it's an account I haven't logged in in a couple months, I don't know what that password is. Who knows? Anytime. No, so I'm always resetting it, which I guess is good hygiene, but it drives me a little baddie where I'm just trying to log into this thing. And then suddenly I'm just like resetting it and getting emails and hoping I get the text message on time and all of this stuff that is just so hectic. and that's why some people I think just want to use the same password for everything to keep it simple but it's also really risky to do that.

11:56Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah but to your point about being analog it just brought up such a sentimental memory for me as I was growing up my mom always had this notebook with all of her passwords in it and she would always call me to go and get it anytime she needed a password for something and yesterday I actually needed a password for one of my accounts and because I've taken after her and started writing my passwords in my notebook I had to go in the garage, look for my notebook. But then I thought I'm going to stop my rabbit hole really soon. I thought, what if my house burns down? And then I lose all my passwords and I still have to re-log into everything anyway.

12:24I don't know.

12:25Sean Pyles:Also, if you are going to keep your passwords written down somewhere physical in the analog world, keep it somewhere safe. Elizabeth, you've talked about how you use your car as your wallet. I'm going to say don't keep all of your passwords in your car.

12:38Elizabeth Ayoola:No, none of them are in my car. So I am being safe in that way. I promise.

12:42Sean Pyles:Well, let's get to some other tips about how people can keep themselves safe, especially, you know, as tax season is coming on. So, Elizabeth, what else do you think people should be doing besides, you know, not keeping passwords in their car?

12:54Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, I do think that people should be aware of all the different scams out there. And especially as tax season is coming, one that comes to mind is the IRS or government imposter scam. For those who don't know what that is, essentially an IRS agent will call you, an IRS agent, I'm putting that in quotes, and say maybe that you're owing back taxes or penalties. Now, I have actually experienced this before. When I lived in the UK, I got a phone call. It sounded urgent. They told me I owed money. And what did I do? I panicked. Oh my God, how much do I owe? How did this happen? How do I pay it off?

13:25Elizabeth Ayoola:They gave me a website that I should go to to pay the balance. And then as I started inputting my information, I saw that they were asking for extremely sensitive information. And that's when the red flags went off. Something's not right here. And luckily I did not send any money there And I deleted kind of all that text thread and the website and everything.

13:42Sean Pyles:Yeah, the IRS is not going to contact you that way. Pretty much no government agency is going to just call you up and ask for your most sensitive personal information. If that happens, because this is still a really common scam, just hang up, ignore them, maybe block the number.

13:56Elizabeth Ayoola:That's right. Another one that comes to mind, Sean, especially as you were talking about getting calls every week, I get texts every week. Smishing is also a common scam people should be aware of. So it's essentially when scammers use text messages to try to get you to click on links or provide sensitive information. I personally get the job scam. Oh, yeah. Every week. Sometimes I reply them and tell them that they need to go get a job. And I report to them.

14:20Sean Pyles:So, well, the sad thing is that them texting you is their job.

14:24Elizabeth Ayoola:Oh, no, no, no time doing this.

14:27Sean Pyles:But, yeah, I get those pretty much every week, too. I got one last week and it said I could get$100 to$200 an hour for just doing really simple work, which is a classic hallmark of these job scams where it's like you can get a lot, a lot of money, but you actually don't have to put in any effort or have any specific skills for this job. And if you get that, just ignore it. I think we all know about this now.

14:47Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, what about you, Sean? What scams come to mind aside from the ones I've mentioned?

14:50Sean Pyles:I think a theme that I see across a lot of scams is urgency. So sometimes you might be getting an email or a call that says, oh, your loved one was in a car accident. And with the advent of AI scams, now it might actually sound like your loved one saying, oh, I was in a car accident or I was arrested. I need you to send a bunch of money to this place immediately. And if you don't do it, then some horrible thing is going to happen. So just be on the lookout for any sort of urgent call or urgent email that tries to isolate you from your loved ones. Like if you get a call from a police officer and they say, your information has been compromised and you can only talk with me about this because I'm the one on your case, that's a huge red flag.

15:32Sean Pyles:Just try to contact an actual police department directly. Again, be the one initiating contact and just take a deep breath. Talk to a loved one and just try to reduce the urgency and the isolation that you might feel.

15:44Elizabeth Ayoola:Love those tips. And that actually happened to someone I know. They said a friend called and said that they had a flat tire. And they were like, huh. You know, so they immediately went to try to send them money. But then they thought again, actually, let me call back and make sure this is true. And they call back and the friend is like, what money? What flat tire? It was all a scam.

16:02Sean Pyles:And they believed that it was their friend. You know what your friend's voice sounds like, which is what's so scary is that these are really believable. One piece of advice that I've heard to keep yourself safe from these scams where you can't really verify who you're talking with, even if it's your best friend, allegedly, is having a safe phrase that you can just say, OK, if you really have this flat tire. tell me what our safe phrase is so I can verify that this is legit, which might sound silly if your friend is actually on the side of the road and just need your help in that moment. But better to do that than give scammers some information, some money.

16:35Elizabeth Ayoola:We don't want to overwhelm you all. We have shared several tips and hopefully some of them are useful. And I think, you know, the most important thing is knowing what to do in case you are scammed. The Federal Trade Commission is a good place to start reporting the scam on there like I did. And also they share lots of information on different scams that are out there.

16:52Sean Pyles:Okay. Well, up next, we'll be getting into our 401k and IRA rollover lightning round.

16:57Elizabeth Ayoola:But before we get into that, of course, we want you to send us all of your money questions, listener. Maybe you need more tips on how to protect your identity, or you need some tips because tax time is here. Whatever your question, please send it to us on the nerd hotline, and that's at 901-730-6373. It hasn't changed. That's 901-730-6373.

17:18Sean Pyles:You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com or leave us a comment on Spotify or on YouTube because we are posting episodes on YouTube now with video so you can see how gorgeous Elizabeth and I are. We're doing a special episode all around taxes in a few weeks. So please send us your questions about taxes. We also love talking about things like how you can buy a home this year and what credit card might be best for your upcoming summer travel plans. Whatever money question you have, we are here to help you with it.

17:45Elizabeth Ayoola:All righty, let's get to this episode's money question segment. That's up next. Stay with us.

17:54Elizabeth Ayoola:Today's episode is sponsored by Spectrum Business.

17:57Sean Pyles:Picture this. You're running a business and the internet drops during business hours. Your to-do list instantly becomes one, panic. Two, stare at the router like you're negotiating with it.

18:08Elizabeth Ayoola:And three, start offering customers a brief moment of mindfulness while the checkout screen loads.

18:13Sean Pyles:For business owners, being connected isn't a perk. It's how you take payments, talk to clients, and keep things moving.

18:19Elizabeth Ayoola:Spectrum Business keeps businesses connected seamlessly with fast, reliable internet and advanced Wi-Fi. Plus, phone, TV, and mobile services if you need them.

18:28Sean Pyles:And Spectrum Business offers 100 % U.S.-based customer support 24-7 to help you stay up and running. That means you get actual help, not submit a ticket and hope for the best.

18:38Elizabeth Ayoola:Our colleague, Carrie, is a Spectrum customer. Shout out to our social media team. And she told us that she chose Spectrum because people online kept recommending it as a reliable and affordable option for internet and phone service.

18:50Sean Pyles:Carrie told us she was actually a little hesitant to switch at first because she'd been using a different service for a while. But after a year with Spectrum, she's had a really good experience. Her phone gets strong, reliable service, and it automatically connects to Spectrum Wi-Fi everywhere.

19:03Elizabeth Ayoola:Join the millions who rely on Spectrum business. Visit Spectrum.com slash business to learn more. One more time, that's Spectrum.com slash business.

19:11Sean Pyles:Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

19:41Elizabeth Ayoola:next trip today.

19:46Sean Pyles:We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode, we're doing a lightning round all about retirement account rollovers.

19:55Elizabeth Ayoola:To help us answer this series of listener questions, we are joined once again by investing nerd Sam Taub. Hey, Sam.

20:03Sean Pyles:Hey, Elizabeth. Hey, Sean. Always happy to be here.

20:06Elizabeth Ayoola:All right, people, Let's rock and roll with question number one, which comes from a listener named Doug by email. Hi, Sean, Elizabeth, and team. I really enjoy your show and wanted to see if you could relay some advice about two ongoing money questions I have. Like many others, I've had multiple jobs with several different employers. As a result, I have more than three legacy 401k accounts, two of which essentially just sit there that I don't add anything to. Each account has a targeted retirement date and will adjust year over year. One, should I roll over everything into one provider, current or past?

20:43Elizabeth Ayoola:Two, how can I evaluate the performance of these previous employer accounts against, say, my current 401k employer-backed provider to see who is giving me the most for my money? For example, T. Rowe Price, Vanguard, Fidelity. The listener has another question, but I say we tackle these two first. Now, Sam, the crux of the question is about a 401k rollover. Now, it's so easy to end up with multiple when you're changing jobs, but let's start with the basics. What's a 401k rollover?

21:12Sean Pyles:A 401k rollover is the process of taking money out of an old 401k and putting it into a 401k at your current job or into an IRA, into a new retirement account. As long as the money ends up in a tax-advantaged retirement account within 60 days, it's not treated as a taxable withdrawal. Okay, well, let's talk about when it makes sense to consolidate many 401k accounts. What are your thoughts here, Sam? Personally, I tend to treat 401k rollovers as part of my sort of new job checklist whenever I change jobs. I do it as soon as I'm settled into the new place because a new job already means filling out a lot of tax and HR paperwork.

21:55Sean Pyles:So I think you might as well fill out a form to rollover your old 401k while you're at it. A lot of the big custodians like Vanguard or Fidelity let you do this online, but there are still a few that might require you to print out a form and fill it out in pen and like fax it or mail it somewhere. Regardless, it often takes a few days to process a rollover. Doing it by mail sounds a little harrowing because you then have a big check with your entire 401k balance that you hope doesn't get lost in the mail. So I'm all about doing this online. Sam, question about why you do it this way as part of your new job checklist.

22:31Sean Pyles:Is it just so you have everything consolidated? Like, what if you experience what our listener is debating and thinking, oh, maybe my old job actually had a better investment option? How do you think about that? Well, the thing that kind of trumps any sort of advantage of the old 401k to me is that you generally can't contribute to a 401k from an old job that you no longer work at. and also it can get kind of annoying to just keep track of a bunch of different logins and a bunch of different accounts and so just consolidating everything together where you can track it easily and also where you can contribute to it easily that's a big advantage of uh doing the rollover right and this is one of those things where you know you're going to want to do it eventually so you might as well while your old employer's 401k is still kind of top of mind and you don't suddenly remember it 30 years down the road and you're like, oh, crap, what happened to all that money I was investing when I was in my 20s?

23:28Sean Pyles:Well, Doug also wants to know how to assess the performance of each of these accounts to see which is doing best. It sounds like money in each account is invested in target date funds. So Sam, can you outline the factors that folks should consider as they compare target date funds and decide which is the best for their retirement savings? Then also, I want to hear about comparing performance of different target date funds over time since that's a primary concern for Doug. Target date funds can be really convenient because they let you be completely hands off. You don't have to adjust their allocation over time because they do that automatically themselves.

24:02Sean Pyles:But there are a couple of things to look out for when you're choosing a target date fund. Ideally, you want one that will keep automatically adjusting itself past your retirement year, but some of them just kind of freeze the allocation when you retire. Also, fees are something to watch out for. some target date funds are cheaper than others. NerdWallet's article on low-cost target date funds, which we can link to in the show notes, is a good resource to check for fees. Now, as far as comparing performance, our article on low-cost target date funds at the moment is really just focused on fees, and it doesn't show performance over time.

24:41Sean Pyles:But you can use any kind of mutual fund screener like Fidelity or Morningstar to look at performance.

24:48Elizabeth Ayoola:Let's shimmy on over to part two of Doug's question, and it has to do with the perk their employer offers. Here it goes. After an individual reaches the IRS 401k pre-tax maximum for the year, my employer will continue to match the same contributions I make just to an after-tax investment. Same fund, just after taxes. As I understand it, this is perhaps somewhat rare. My question is around what I discovered some colleagues have been doing. They max out their 401k pre-tax contributions, then start the after-tax matching account, but then twice a month they somehow convert those funds or realize the gains in such a way that they are only paying taxes for the two weeks the contributions are in the after-tax account.

25:33Elizabeth Ayoola:My understanding is that this is called something like an after-tax backdoor IRA, where the after-tax funds, once converted into some sort of IRA, and the two weeks worth of taxes are paid, grows tax-free. After I heard about this, my head started spinning, not only with the implications, but also with how time-intensive that must be to individually manage. Have you heard of this? And is it a good idea? Too complicated? Or worth the trouble? All right.

26:02Sean Pyles:It sounds like our listener Doug here is describing the administrative annoyance and overhead involved in a mega backdoor Roth IRA. So Sam, can you explain what a mega backdoor Roth IRA is? Yeah, as Doug is describing, it's a technique where you make after-tax contributions to your 401k, and then you roll the after-tax balance over into a Roth IRA or an after-tax 401k. It's best known as a workaround for people whose incomes are too high to contribute to a Roth IRA directly, or it can also be useful if you've already maxed out your 401k deferral, but you still want to contribute more to your 401k.

26:46Sean Pyles:Now, I usually think of the Mega Backdoor Roth rollover as a one-time maneuver, and doing it every two weeks sounds kind of labor-intensive to me, But I guess I can see the logic. If you're just rolling over after-tax funds that you contributed recently, then the taxes you have to pay are probably minimal. The contributions are already after-tax, so they don't generate a tax bill. You would just be paying taxes on the investment gains that those contributions have made in two weeks. and two weeks isn't a very long time in investing terms. So that's probably not going to generate much of a tax bill.

27:28Elizabeth Ayoola:Well, Sam, now I want to ask you personally, do you think they are worth the headache? In my opinion, yes, they are, because I don't want to give Uncle Sam any more of my money.

27:37Sean Pyles:It does sound like a lot of work to me, but yeah, tax-free growth is nice. And also Roth IRAs do offer a little more flexibility in terms of withdrawals than traditional accounts do. You can withdraw contributions tax-free at any time. You can withdraw up to$10 ,000 in earnings for a first-time home purchase after the account has been funded for at least five years. And the rules around required minimum distributions are much looser once you hit retirement age. But is that worth just the amount of paperwork and time and aggravation that's involved in doing something like this? I don't know. I think that that's going to be a question for every individual listener to answer for themselves.

28:24Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah, I think there's something to be said about the frequency of their conversions. Every two weeks sounds very tedious. What are the tax implications of converting these funds every two weeks? What could go wrong?

28:36Sean Pyles:Well, there is one rule that we have to talk about here that I kind of only half understand, if I'm being honest. so I'm going to tag in Sean Piles, our CFP. It seems like what Doug is describing could trigger the pro-rata rule. From what I gather, if you have a traditional retirement account, like a 401k or an IRA, that contains a mixture of pre-tax and after-tax contributions, and then you want to roll some of it over into a Roth IRA, they don't let you just roll over the after-tax portion. So say the account is 50 % pre-tax contributions and 50 % after-tax contributions. The IRS says that each rollover amount has to consist of 50-50 pre - and post-tax contributions.

29:30Sean Pyles:They make you maintain that ratio with any money that comes out of the account. And if you're rolling over pre-tax contributions, then you have to pay income tax on the contributions themselves, not just on the investment earnings. So to really minimize your tax liability doing something like this, you need to make exclusively after-tax contributions from the get-go, I think. Do I have that right, Sean? Yeah, you did a great job explaining what is a really complicated and frustrating part of rollovers. People deal with the pro rata rule all the time with things like IRA rollovers, but we'll keep it focused on the 401ks for now.

30:12Sean Pyles:I'll also add that the pro rata rule applies to earnings on contributions after you've put money into an after-tax 401k. So with Doug's co-workers, they're putting money into this after-tax retirement account, right? If the money they put into that account grows due to investment performance before they convert it, they'll owe taxes on that growth amount due to the pro rata rule, which you touched on briefly earlier. So essentially, you're contributing after-tax funds to your 401k with the goal of doing a mega backdoor Roth. The best way to avoid paying taxes on this as a result of the pro rata rule is to convert these funds before they have the opportunity to grow, which I assume is why Doug's coworkers are doing this every two weeks.

30:50Sean Pyles:So this can be achieved by converting your contributions to a Roth account as soon as possible. Two weeks is their schedule, they might be able to do it more frequently. But also, some employers limit the amount of conversions you can do in a single year, you're really going to want to look at what your own workplace plan offers and even has available. So yeah, this whole thing sounds like kind of a pain and it really can be. But here's the thing, it can save you a ton in taxes compared with putting money in something like a taxable brokerage account for additional retirement savings after you've maxed out your 401k deferral.

31:22Sean Pyles:So as ever, with really complicated financial moves that have tax implications, you're going to want to consult with a tax professional to understand what kind of tax bill you could be on the hook for. And also, again, people should know that mega backdoor Roths aren't an option offered by all employers. So if you don't have that at your workplace, then don't even worry about any of this.

31:43Elizabeth Ayoola:As Doug rightly said, my head is spinning. But thank you both for the explanation. All right. Moving along, we have another IRA-related question from a second listener via text. Here it goes. Am I the reader today? I'm the reader today.

31:59Sean Pyles:You are. You're doing a great job. Thank you.

32:01Elizabeth Ayoola:Thank you. All that reading in elementary school paid off. Reading from the class. All right. Hello, nerds. I have three traditional IRAs and one Roth. My traditional IRAs are with Vanguard, Fidelity, and Benjamin Edwards. I have$9 ,900 in a traditional IRA Vanguard account,$5 ,000 in a traditional IRA Fidelity account, and finally, my last traditional IRA has$32 ,000 in it at Benjamin Edwards. And Benjamin Edwards also holds a$12 ,000 Roth IRA. My question is, should I consolidate all of this money into a single Roth? And do I really care which of the three companies holds it? Using a RoboAdvisor with Vanguard, I am self-managed with Fidelity on purpose.

32:49Elizabeth Ayoola:And my Benjamin Edwards account is managed by a person. It seems to me that I would probably have better gains by putting all of my money into one spot. and I would rather pay tax on my money at today's rate than tomorrow's. I enjoy managing the money in my Fidelity account. Thanks for being nerds. I love your podcast and I love hearing all of your drama.

33:12Sean Pyles:You hear that, Elizabeth? People want to hear all your messiness and mine and mine. There's plenty of it.

33:18Elizabeth Ayoola:Listen, listen. I hope all my school teachers are listening, telling my business. I made a career out of it and it's good for business. I love it. All right. So we have another consolidation question here. And I like this one because all three accounts are managed in different ways. We'll start by answering the question around whether the listener should consolidate and whether they'll have better gains by consolidating all three, Sam.

33:40Sean Pyles:Well, I guess that consolidating accounts could boost returns a little bit if it reduces fees. The managed account with Benjamin Edwards in particular probably has higher fees than the funds in the self-directed Fidelity account. but mainly I'd say that consolidating here would just be a quality of life improvement rather than something that's going to increase gains. It's just kind of annoying as we talked about before to have to keep track of a bunch of different logins and add your balances together manually to see how you're doing overall. Yeah, simplifying the amount of accounts that you have is really important as you get closer to retirement because you want to make sure that you know how much money you have and importantly you want to make sure that your beneficiaries, your friends and family knows what you have in case they need to manage your money or they are maybe inheriting your money one day.

34:29Elizabeth Ayoola:It also feels like a diversification of investment strategies is going on here with the listener too. Now, I personally have my money invested in one way, it's self-directed, but the listener is using three different strategies, a robo-advisor, a portfolio manager, and is also engaging in self-directed investing too. This would be overwhelming for me because I like my money invested in a uniform way. What are the pros and cons of the listener's approach, Sam?

34:56Sean Pyles:The nice thing about a managed account, whether it's human managed or robo-advisor managed, is that you don't have to touch it. You don't have to rebalance it. It does all that for you automatically. But as we discussed earlier, target date funds also have that same hands-off appeal. And also, as we discussed earlier, a major con of managed accounts is that they generally come with an extra fee.

35:24Elizabeth Ayoola:What are your thoughts, Sean?

35:26Sean Pyles:Okay, I'm 100 % a lazy investor. So personally, I'm happy to pay a little more in fees now to not have to think about whether my investments are balanced in an appropriate way for my age and my retirement timeline. And maybe one day I'll change my mind or maybe future me will wish that I had a little bit more in my retirement account since I have been paying more in fees, but it really comes down to knowing your numbers. So play with your retirement calculator that lets you input the fees on your account to see how much these fees could detract from your overall retirement savings. Sam, we have a pretty good one at nerdwallet.com that does this for people, right?

36:00Sean Pyles:Yes, we do. Let's include a link to the mutual fund calculator in our show notes. Done.

36:07Elizabeth Ayoola:Last question for this lightning round. Sam, I have a feeling that you were also good at reading in front of the class in elementary school. So I want you to read the last listener email for us.

36:20Sean Pyles:Guilty as charged. Sure. Hi, Smart Money Podcasters. I worked for the same company for 25 years. And during that time, I built up a significant balance in my 401k. After moving to a different company a few years ago, I began participating in the new company's 401k plan. but I left my sizable 401 balance with my previous employer. Currently, I'm thinking about transferring my old 401 into a rollover IRA in order to access a broader range of investment options. However, I'm concerned about how the protections offered by an IRA compare to those provided by a 401. I'm aware that assets held in a 401 are protected from bankruptcy claims and liability claims.

37:08Sean Pyles:Despite my research, however, I haven't been able to find clear information on whether rollover IRA assets offer the same level of protection. Although I hope to never face bankruptcy or liability issues, the substantial amount involved makes it an important consideration for me. My primary question is whether assets in a rollover IRA receive similar protections from bankruptcy and liability claims as assets in a 401k. Understanding these protections is crucial as I evaluate the best way to manage my retirement savings. Thank you. Well read, Sam. Thank you for that. Okay. First, I'd like to clarify that rollover IRAs aren't a specific type of account.

37:52Sean Pyles:They just refer to the process of moving money from an old employer-sponsored plan into an IRA or how the account is funded. So I think the real question is, in a bankruptcy or liability situation, does an IRA have the same protections as a 401k? So you are correct that rollover IRAs are not a specific type of IRA. But for the purposes of this question, it actually does matter whether an IRA was funded by contributions or whether it was funded by a rollover from a 401k. And here's why. 401k plans generally have unlimited protection from creditors in the event of bankruptcy or some other legal proceeding.

38:36Sean Pyles:IRAs have limited protection at the federal level up to a certain amount of money, which was$1.7 million last year. It's adjusted yearly for inflation. I don't think we have the 2026 number yet. And some states may offer additional protection for IRAs. Now, here's where it gets a little complicated, but in a good way. Money that was rolled over from a 401k into an IRA is treated by bankruptcy courts like it's still in the 401k. In other words, it has unlimited protection from creditors. So actually, the rollover part of this does matter. That is really interesting. And it connects to a theme that we've been seeing throughout these listener questions here, which is that the type of retirement account that your rollover money is coming from, whether it's an after-tax 401k or a traditional IRA or 401k, can have really significant implications on how that money is treated, including whether you're on the hook for a tax bill or have bankruptcy protections.

39:39Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah. And this reminds me about the importance of consulting with actual finance professionals who are up to date with IRS rules and the likes, and maybe not professional TikTokers talking about finances. Otherwise, people may run and do things that other people are doing, like a rollover or a mega backdoor Roth without seeking the right advice and find themselves in an expensive tax-related bind with the IRS. All right, Sam, anything else listeners should keep in mind about IRA rollovers?

40:07Sean Pyles:Yeah, there's a lot of options for IRAs nowadays, and they're not all the same. Nowadays, some IRA providers are actually offering a match on rollovers and contributions. It's kind of like the employer match that you get through a 401k. NerdWallet's roundup of the best IRA accounts is a great place to compare your options, and we'll also link to that in the episode description.

40:32Elizabeth Ayoola:Yeah, I will throw in that a big part of effective money management is organization, and sometimes having money all over the place creates a breeding ground for financial mistakes. Ask me how I know. It can also lead to missed opportunities to grow your money.

40:46Sean Pyles:Very true. All right. Well, Sam, thanks for coming on. Of course. Happy to be on. That's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we're here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions. You can do that by reaching us at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com.

41:07Elizabeth Ayoola:And it would bring me so much joy if you would set an alarm, put it on your calendar to join us next time to hear about whether the rule of thumb that you can live off of 80 % of your annual income and retirement still holds up. Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app that includes Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes.

41:28Sean Pyles:And here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

41:38Elizabeth Ayoola:This episode was produced by Tess Vigland. Hilary Georgie helped with editing. Nick Kersamey mixed our audio. And a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all of their help.

41:47Sean Pyles:And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.

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