In Conversation with Joel Baker | Songwriting, singing lessons and straddling genres

0:00Now imagine a hybrid of Jay Diller and Bob Dylan. The man we're about to speak to embodies that. It's Joel Baker. Just from a couple of conversations, you're a very positive person, aren't you? Like, you're very, you seem to see the good in everything. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Thanks so much for joining us, Joel Baker. Privileged to have you with us today. Pleasure, man. Absolute pleasure. Today we are at Grind Studios, partnering with Etch for a week-long residency. Yep. could be making some music playing it to some people but we wanted to start off by saying giving you the opportunity for anyone who might not have heard of you up until this point yeah

0:35Joel Baker:who is joel baker um who is joel baker yeah i'm sure you haven't heard of me to be fair but i've been kicking around for a while i love being in this area actually in shoreditch because this was so nostalgic for me this is where i was like all the time when i first moved to london like 2011 I've seen short it's changed so much But I mean who is Joel Baker I arrived here working in Parliament As a speech writer My life was very much going that way But then all the friends that I met Were all artists, producers, writers And I was like I actually want to do that That's what I really really want to do And being in London was the first time That I felt like that was possible So I kind of went down that path 100 miles per hour It's been a roller coaster of a journey.

1:24Joel Baker:Had some ups, had some downs and everything in between. And yeah, I'm an artist. I make music that's somewhere between Dylan and Dilla. So it's kind of got that folk rootsy element to it. But also, like, I was born in 1990. So my love for, like, American-inspired hip-hop, Chicago hip-hop and all of that is just in me. You know? we were swapping Wu-Tang CDs in the playground like growing up and that's very much a part of who I am but my dad loved Bob Dylan as well so that's also in me so that's just yeah that's that's who I am yeah sick love that so Dylan and Dilla the good JD so how does that intersect in your music yeah say is it the the lyricism is from the Dillon side and the production of Dilla or is it more is there something else to it?

2:19Joel Baker:It's very much that to be fair. It's very much that. So it's me trying to combine all of my favourite elements of the things that I listen to and love and putting them into songs. Sometimes the elements appear more in different songs or different productions but that's I would say how the template starts every time. So it's like right I'm going to start with kind of like a jaggedy boom bap kind of thing and I'm going to lay out with some guitars and chords and kind of see what happens. Sometimes it comes out a little bit more songy or folky or country. I just went to Nashville last year and wrote a lot more kind of country style stuff, but then put the kind of boom bap under it, which was really interesting.

3:04Joel Baker:And sometimes it's just, it's a bit more UK inspired, synthy, dark. Yeah, I'd say there were releases this year, quite that with your work with Nick Brewer. yeah yeah yeah so you've got you've got five releases under that under boy baker volume two yeah is is there any more to come or are we doing some of that today i mean that's kind of going to be an ongoing project for forever really yeah me and nick have been friends for forever and um yeah like maybe two or three years ago nick was at a point where he's like i'm not sure if i want to do music anymore and I was like no way you've got to do music so so I was like look let's just like start up a little project just for fun see what happens see where it goes and yeah so that was great fun that was the only purpose of that project it feels fun it feels fun yeah definitely does definitely does I love the tune with kind of the Monster Boy rendition of the garage and stuff yeah right very like throwback puts you instantly in that time yeah so at grind today what we're working on what we did today so today is all about finishing my album so I've got an album coming called songs in a second language and I've just been on the fence about it for a while I've got like these 18 tracks that's been on my hard drive I've been on my like untitled streaming yeah ages I just listen to them all the time so I'm just tweaking them constantly oh maybe it should be this maybe it should be that and i'm just kind of bored of that now and i'm like okay let me invite a bunch of people down here to listen to them with me i'm going to set up a little live stream as well and just listen along with a bunch of people and let's just like see what the energy is now i am a believer in yeah like your gut will tell you what to do once you kind of show it in front of other people um like i've done a lot of like work at the moment around like kind of feedback loops and your own mind isn't necessarily the best feedback loop sometimes do you know what i mean actually the energy from other people can be a better judge of what to do so that's what i'm hoping for today yeah a bit of fun open up the all the files play the songs and see what needs kind of finishing yeah so yeah i mean i guess that's what music's all about it's being played for people to enjoy an experience so yeah yeah yeah That's a sick plan.

5:32I love that you're bringing people into that creative process as well. Yeah. As you say, you can so easily get stuck on your own head when it comes to your own creation, no matter what the output of it is.

5:42Joel Baker:100%. So, as we said, here with Etched, and one of the main things about Etched is talking really about how we secure value and allow us to then be a bit more liberal with the stuff that we share and all of that sort of stuff. and so we wanted to talk about the fact that you you have a patreon yes called the bakery yeah which has different tiers on it different ways that people can access yeah uh whether it be buying you a coffee or like a whole load of different stuff and i think that's such a cool way for you to be able to like give value but also sort of extract value back and so we wanted to talk about how you how do you navigate the overall balance of sort of like value on your work especially um from the sort of songwriting point of view as well because we all know that that's definitely something people are advocating for more and more is like for songwriters to be paid like appropriately so yeah just wanted to ask you about that whole premise of value really yeah and this is it's a big question in the industry at the moment i'm just like yeah the value of human work and human art and all of that i think i think we're still finding what that balance should be in a way i think ever since streaming we've been trying to find what does that look like um it does feel like music is kind of going in a way now of almost a little bit like art in a way of where there are the kind of different tiers of art and what are you willing to kind of pay for and um if i want to come and see your artwork i might pay for a ticket to a gallery and come and see it in that way or um but i mean the the interesting thing about music is it's always been about like buying into somebody's journey and personal brand as well yeah and which streaming at the moment doesn't necessarily allow for I love streaming by the way I think it's amazing I've profited off it yeah you know I was just bought for yesterday and and so many of my favorite artists I've discovered from Spotify as well so I think I think it's amazing but there there does need to be like an add-on for like artists to actually be able to sustain themselves.

7:51Joel Baker:So I just noticed a lot in my journey, there was a lot of people from around the world that just kind of wanted to buy into what I was doing and wanted to support me. But they were just like, we don't know how. I can just press repeat on your song. There's only so many times I've been listening to it. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And at the same time, I really know that feeling. So Patreon, I'm subscribed to a bunch of other creators as well. just like some of my favorite artists and i'm like thank you for doing this like literally like i would pay anything to see into your process yeah get unreleased demos and whatnot like this is a make you provide so much value for me amazing um so i i think it's those platforms those fantafan platforms i think are only gonna expand um yeah sick sick so you've um you previously well it's a quote from someone else actually but you previously said that um your favorite definition of success oh yeah the ability to continue to create yeah which i think is something very very cool and i yeah you know as we've just said like finding other people's expression and you being able to express is um super important but then obviously you've been speaking a bit about like family life and stuff how do you balance that with the necessity to continue to pay bills hard yeah it's really tricky and it's really tricky and I think particularly you know the way that society is set up as well as of what we value and what we see a success and value is often interwoven with money yeah particularly for men as well I speak to so many young artists and male artists that are so desperate to make it when you really unpick it it's not even necessarily because they want to make money it's because they want other people to look at them like they're worth something as a man um and that is it's hard it's a lot of responsibility to put onto the art form of music particularly in its current way in society where people are like music is should be free and readily accessible for anybody so the math ain't always mapping you know i mean um and But I've, you know, music has paid bills for me and it's been the bill for me in so many different capacities.

10:12Joel Baker:So when I started, it was all minus. I was just paying to do music. And I was like, of course I will. Like the same way I pay to go on holiday or to pay, this is the thing that I love to do more than anything. I'll pay to put out a project. What a privilege. And then it got to a point of where, whoa, people will pay me to do music. people pay me to make projects or to do live shows yeah this is amazing um but i think what is what's then tricky for a lot of artists is when that then goes into reverse and you stop seeing as much money coming in from your music or live shows and you start going oh does that mean i'm failing or does that mean and and it's hot it's actually impossible to reverse park into the same mindset that you had before you were making money because you've you've took all that experience yeah and all all of that stuff so it's you know it's leonard cohen's got a a poem called um uh i think it's called 10 000 kisses deep or something like that and he talks about this idea of like living from the place of your like um invincible defeat and i see that in so many of people like my age it's it's how are you going to live your life now from a point of like when life is always going to kill you you're always going to die you're always going to get defeated how are you going to move from here um and yeah it's for me it's been about kind of remembering the kind of the core purpose of why i love music in the first place it's got nothing to do with money literally money is just you know allows me to do it yeah and so the things like the Patreon are great because they just allow me to do it and that's how I treat it so put into this part and all of this part of money that you invest in me will only come out in the music yeah love that man sick yeah sorry that was a bit a long way no no no super interesting I wasn't ready for the poetry but but that hit me it's profound it was profound so no i like it so going back to um falling in love with music in the first place and stuff like obviously now you kind of do everything you do like writing producing singing and rapping what was your first step into into music for yourself and i've got a second part for this question as well now when you're making music now what is the first thing that you do is the writing producing or whatever oh yeah it's such a good question yeah so it has kind of come full circle i started off as a guitarist so i was just guitar mad by like jimi hendrix on my wall and all of that just every night just get home headphones on just like guitar solos and stuff just dealing with the angst of life uh and now that was my that was my vibe honestly um for a while but i also i loved songwriting but i didn't really have a great voice and i felt a bit embarrassed by it all so I kind of kept that to myself um but early days in Nottingham I was very much like a producer I'd produced for like I had a few bands and stuff Nottingham's very like band culture um I just loved that man I mean I'm yeah I'm so old that I actually had a like a digital four track recorder was the first thing I produced on um I just loved it I just came alive just loved every moment of just of making music like wow we can start with nothing and then we can end with a track that i can listen to and enjoy amazing um and then yeah moved to london became a songwriter i did all of that stuff but um i've kind of almost come full circle and i almost like start with producing like i want to for me production feels a little bit like this the sparks on the on the fire it's just like okay can i get something i'll rub these two sticks together and get something there once i've created that feeling that atmosphere then i'll go to go to lyrics sometimes what i try and do is i'll then try and match something up with maybe some poetry that i've written or some words or ideas that i've written and try and see if anything sticks yeah that's the kind that's the process at the moment yeah so during that period did you just said that you didn't like your voice at the beginning.

14:30No. What did you do to either build the confidence or kind of improve your voice?

14:35Joel Baker:Yeah, it's a really good question. And I've always just struggled with it. It's always felt a little bit like my left hand. It's so odd that there's some things in life that I just feel very naturally confident with. Even though there's not necessarily a reason for it, but I just feel like, oh, this is my thing. I'm good at this. like guitar I started learning when I was 15 stopped learning when I was 16 I haven't got any better since I was 16 and yeah I feel so confident in guitar I'm not a great guitarist but I just feel like oh this is what I do singing even though I've been singing a lot longer I just yeah it's always something I've felt self-conscious about what has what did help was I did some singing lessons and that the first guy actually oh my goodness I can't believe I forgot his name but he's a friend of mine called um trey jean marie he's actually a big time producer it was his dad that taught me to sing but he was so like um like rafiki with it right you know yeah yeah like i wasn't ready like i wasn't i just arrived like there for my first singing lesson i kind of got out i got on my guitar and i put the strap on around me i was like okay cool i'm ready he was like put down the guitar and i was like what did you mean and then he like made me put it down and then he made me say like like i am a singer and i was like i am a singer no louder i am a singer no no i want you to scream i have to like go then go outside his house and then like scream it outside yeah like and he was just trying to like he's like you don't believe that you're a singer that's your problem um and it was actually super helpful and he built a lot of confidence in me um so it wasn't just i've been to singing teachers since this is like let's go up and down the piano which is cool but he really helped me believe in myself i think as a performer which was really fundamental for me yeah wow that's cool man that's amazing it's so sick hearing that those sort of like stories because i feel like it's so easy to come across like an artist and be like yeah well this is all super well refined and we love it and stuff but then it's like your own process and journey of it it might be like so opposite to that 100 yeah mad oh it is a great voice so that's crazy that's kind that's very kind i appreciate that well listen we're gonna take a slight pivot now um because obviously there's there's in the studio and then there's like what we do to like um i don't know like express otherwise and to like release your mind sometimes and i know you're like running i do yeah like is maybe an interesting maybe you maybe you run by run but i i did a bit of digging and i noticed that you had a hackney half yeah playlist yeah and i noticed that this playlist was two hours and 29 minutes i wondered did you complete it If so, what was your time?

17:39How did you find it?

17:41Joel Baker:That's so funny you found my Hackney Half playlist. That's an insight into me, maybe. Yeah, I do love running. You know what it is? I sign up for Hackney Half every year because it then keeps me fit from January. I'm in my off-season right now.

18:03Joel Baker:Yeah, no, until January, you won't catch me out running at all. So, but yeah, this year was actually a bit of a unique year because I, me and Nick decided to run it together. Oh, shit. Because we both do a bit of running and we realised we were getting the same sort of times. Yeah, yeah. And we were like, you know what, maybe if we run together, we'll go even faster because we'll be like, yo, I can't get myself going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I trained kind of reasonably well, but to be honest with you, I kind of shammed the training plan. a little bit and Nick was also expecting a baby that he's just had he kind of shammed it a little bit as well so we were both feeling a bit nervous for the time that we set which what was it I think oh my gosh I can't remember what we said I think we said I think we were going to try and do 1-3-5 but anyway it got to the date it got to the date and yeah about 5-6k in I was like oh no oh no it was mad hot right as well it was hot and it wasn't feeling good I just wasn't you know what I mean you know you get that feeling it's like oh I'm just off today is not the day something's not right in my body so literally like by 6k I'm struggling by 9k I'm like to Nick like I'm so embarrassed I actually can't even I can't keep going you're gonna have to go and now I'm like I'm in the mud you know what I mean like I'm in I'm in Run as hell I'm in a hole All the voices Are coming from me Like You're like the Green Goblin So I'm like You failed And all that And I'm thinking like You know what Let's just like Let's just quit now I'm just I'm going to go home right now But I decided I'll slow it down And then I'm just going to Finish it So I just enjoyed The rest of the race Just get through it Yeah yeah 20k in So the last kilometre And I've just I've just had the time Of my life I've just been bopping around to my playlist, whatever.

20:07Joel Baker:I get a tap on my shoulder. Nick! Oh, really? Right? Nick's like, yo, John! Yo, John! So I run the last 10K just by myself. The last K, he taps on my shoulder. He's like, yo, John. I'm like, what are you doing here? He's like, oh, man, like, 15K, my leg just went. And I've just been, like, limping, walking, whatever. So we ran the last 1K together, finished it together. oh that's a nice vibe that's so sick yeah yeah what a journey yeah 21k it's not a joke man every year i'm like why do i do this it's crazy well done i love you you're a runner yes that's all six months ago oh yeah i'm finally finally into it finally there yeah because you're so you're a 95 so you're you're kind of due it now yeah exactly you're running yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's you have to pick one kind of side quest from 30 onwards i've do i've gone into running coffee like we're we're ticking the boxes oh 100 yeah i mean yeah sure there's your shoreditch like right now like that's what it is buying a ticket into shoreditch and you hit the running thing at the right time it's cool to run now as well oh bro yeah i know it's expensive well it's not i've chosen to make it yeah because the shoes and stuff and yeah all of the gear and i'm like yeah probably shouldn't really run with a night top and adidas shorts like that is sacrolegious i ain't gonna lie to you you can't be doing that you can't be doing that you're a vest guy sorry a vest running vest and that what like the little yeah no my wife has that i don't have that that's weighing me down that's weighing me down okay i don't need that I'm not running any crazy distances at the minute to warrant gels and this stuff.

21:53So we're just...

21:54Joel Baker:You're doing a full of 5Ks. Doing 5Ks to 10Ks. We're building up. We're building up. Half is on the cards. How many half next year? Potentially, yeah, potentially. Yeah, I get in early, man. But listen, we want to let you crack on and get creative. But Joel, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time. Speaking with us, man, it's been very fun. We've got some great insight into your creative process, into your life outside the studio as well. Thank you. Thank you, bro. It's been great chatting. Cheers, bro. appreciate you guys