In short
Housing market headlines: rising homebuyer cancellations, a Moody’s Analytics 10-year price forecast (slow growth through 2035), and fraud risks for investors (wire/title/syndication fraud), plus practical steps to reduce deal fallout.
Guests (backgrounds)
Dave Meyer (host, real estate investor/educator); Kathy Fecky (real estate investor who raises capital for syndications); Henry Washington (real estate investor/operator focused on risk); James Daynard (active investor/deal operator; discusses underwriting and pre-inspections).
Key claims
In 2025, 56,000 US purchase agreements were canceled (15.1% of contracts), up from 14.3% in 2024. Cancellations reflect buyers regaining optionality as market times normalize and inventory rises. Moody’s forecasts ~23% home price growth by 2035, with 2026 near-flat (+0.5%) then ~2–3% annually. Fraud is increasing, especially during government shutdowns affecting reporting.
Notable examples
A buyer canceled after a diamond ring fell into the toilet during inspection. Wire fraud examples included $300k stolen and $40k earnest money lost via email cloning; advice included verifying wire instructions by phone/title rep and using secure bank emails. Syndication fraud case: Marco Santorelli (Orange County) allegedly raised $62M via unsecured promissory notes promising high monthly interest, then allegedly paid earlier investors with new money (Ponzi).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODiscussion on Recent Market Trends
0:19 to 1:30
The hosts discuss the implications of rising homebuyer cancellations.
“I'm Dave Meyer, joined today by Kathy Fecky, Henry Washington, and James Daynard.”
Cancellation Rates and Buyer Mindset
1:30 to 4:00
An overview of record-high cancellation rates and buyer psychology.
“My news article, cancellation rates hits record high.”
Investor Strategies in the Current Market
4:00 to 6:20
Insights on how investors can adapt to changing market conditions.
“I'm going to go get the one that's better.”
Pre-Inspections and Selling Tips
6:20 to 11:00
Best practices for conducting pre-inspections and maintaining buyer interest.
“But what it does is it shows that potential buyer that we care.”
Long-Term Market Predictions
11:00 to 12:20
A discussion on long-term housing price forecasts and market expectations.
“All I could say is that But the way I define a buyer's market or a seller's market is in a buyer's market, the buyer has more power.”
Long-Term Market Predictions
13:44 to 14:32
A discussion on long-term housing price forecasts and market expectations.
“or sell everything and take the tax hit.”
Long-term Housing Market Forecast
14:40 to 19:03
Discover the projected trends in housing prices and investment strategies.
“I'm Dave Meyer here with James, Kathy, and Henry talking the latest headlines.”
The Value of Predictable Real Estate Markets
19:04 to 21:48
Understand the importance of stability and predictability in real estate investing.
“Well, let me tell you, James, I'm speaking to James, that it's not as boring as it sounds because Dave and I and Henry wouldn't be so excited if it were seriously that boring.”
The Value of Predictable Real Estate Markets
22:27 to 23:11
Understand the importance of stability and predictability in real estate investing.
“make sure you avoid it in your business.”
The Value of Predictable Real Estate Markets
23:15 to 24:24
Understand the importance of stability and predictability in real estate investing.
“investing or wholesaling, the hardest part is finding and talking to motivated sellers before everyone else does.”
Show all 17 chapters
The Value of Predictable Real Estate Markets
24:25 to 24:55
Understand the importance of stability and predictability in real estate investing.
“Finding a strong rental property usually takes time, research, and calculated risk.”
The Value of Predictable Real Estate Markets
25:00 to 25:16
Understand the importance of stability and predictability in real estate investing.
“Sign up for free and start exploring this smart investing opportunity today.”
Navigating Real Estate Fraud Risks
25:17 to 26:02
Gain insights into the rising risk of fraud in real estate transactions.
“You qualify with your income, your job, your tax returns.”
Navigating Real Estate Fraud Risks
26:08 to 28:00
Gain insights into the rising risk of fraud in real estate transactions.
“I'm here with Henry, James, and Kathy talking about the latest headlines.”
Understanding Wire Fraud and Prevention Techniques
28:00 to 30:24
Learn about the risks of wire fraud and effective strategies to prevent it.
“extra careful attention to our deals, our underwriting.”
Fraud Case: A Colleague's Fall from Grace
30:24 to 32:00
Discover the story of a former real estate CEO charged with massive fraud.
“You can request that your bank send you secure emails that require you to log in with a with an email and a password in order to review the email.”
Analyzing Investment Risks in Real Estate Syndications
32:00 to 38:46
Explore how to vet syndications and protect yourself from investment fraud.
“Yeah, this one really bums me out because it is someone I know.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00More buyers are canceling their contracts right now, which is a little bit scary for sellers, but presents a big opportunity for buyers. Moody's Analytics just released their long-range housing price forecast, and we've got frauds on the rise in real estate that you need to keep an eye out for. This and more on today's episode of On The Market.
0:26Hey, everyone. Welcome to On The Market. I'm Dave Meyer, joined today by Kathy Fecky, Henry Washington, and James Daynard. Back together after all being together in person at BP Cono. So nice to see all of you. Kathy, I recorded last week, but I gave you credit for starting a 2 ,000-person dance party by yourself at the club the last night in Vegas. So thank you for doing that. It really ended the conference on a bang. Oh, my gosh. I had the best time ever, and I just was sad the next day when it was all over, and I missed you guys. It was good. Well, it was a great time. So it was great to see you all in person and hope to see more of the on-the-market community in person at the next BiggerPockets event, whether it's BPCon or one of these small local events that we're talking more about doing in the near future.
1:13Today, we're going through headlines. We're going to talk about buyers canceling deals. We'll talk about the long term. I'm talking 10-year forecast for the housing market, a couple of instances of fraud that investors need to look out for, and more. Let's jump into it. James, start us off. What do you got for us? All right. My news article, cancellation rates hits record high. In 2025, 56 ,000 US purchase agreements were canceled, which are 15.1 % of the homes that were under contract. So people are bailing off of their deals. And the rate before in 2024 was at 14.3%. So we're really only up 1%.
1:56But we are seeing as someone that's in the market doing a lot of deals right now, there is a ton of deals getting canceled. And I think this is really important for all investors right now as they go to sell anything to take the time and make sure that your deal doesn't fall apart. When you have a market that is very low transactional, right? Like 2008, we had the same thing going on. Not a lot of transactions. And if we could hook that magical buyer, it was essential that we got them to the closed table. What the article really talks about is buyers aren't emotionally connected to these properties.
2:31One example was the home buyer's diamond ring fell in her toilet and flushed down during her inspection period. And that was just too much for her to handle. And she couldn't buy it. Just can't buy the house. It just shows you the mindset of where we're at right now. Everyone's all pins and needles. But doesn't that kind of make sense that like buyers have like gone back and now they don't need to be bidding like crazy. And they're just going back to having a normal level of optionality. Totally. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Like, this is what happens when there's more inventory, right?
3:03Yeah. Also, like from when they put it under contract to when they're about to close, like 10 more houses came on the market in their price point. And they start looking at those two, even though they're under contract. So like, yeah, if the wind blows the wrong way, they're like, well, I'll just go buy this other one. That's exactly what I was thinking is it's a buyer's market and people are not familiar with what this means. Sellers in particular, and maybe some agents don't understand that in the old days, meaning a few years ago, you couldn't even do inspections, right? And a lot of people ended up buying homes that needed a lot of work that they didn't know about because they were so frantic to get into the market.
3:42And that's always a dangerous situation. I couldn't believe that there were sellers saying no inspections, best offer, cash only. But that's what happens in a seller's market because there's not enough inventory. When there's too much inventory, then all of a sudden the buyer has the power. That's the bottom line. Hey, this house isn't good enough. I'm going to go get the one that's better. And I do want to point out, I don't actually think it's a buyer's market right now. I think it's just we're getting back to normal on market times. There's lower transactions. There's just less people looking.
4:13And that's why I also think there's a lot of transactions flipping too. One theory I have is it's the window shoppers that have been looking for two years. and because real estate people really have to do their jobs now. Before it was like, James, I'm a broker. And do you want to buy a house? This is going to be great. Let's go get you one. We're just going to throw mud at the wall until we get you one, right? Now those bodies aren't there anymore. And real brokers are going, I have to work the leads of people I've been talking to for years. But they're also the window shoppers who are the most nervous.
4:44And they're the ones that will flip off a lot more. And I think the biggest thing for investors right now, debt is expensive. It is way more expensive than it was three years ago. It takes longer to sell your properties now. You know, I personally offer performance of deals we bought. We're at least 25 % longer in debt costs because of the times. We cannot lose that buyer. And so where I see a lot of it is just investors don't want to spend any more money because they're worrying about their payment and all these other things. But you cannot lose that buyer. So make sure you get your pre-inspections.
5:15That was going to be my question, which was like, what is your process to make sure you hold on to that buyer? And I was going to ask you about pre-inspections because I haven't done them. I think I've done it once. Like, what's that process look like for you? You know, we're very rigorous in our punch out. And we got this way in 2008. And, you know, so we have a three-step process. First thing is project manager or myself, if I'm on the project, we meet the contractor, we go through and we blue tape everything. Then our listing broker, because they have a different set of eyes, the ones that are going out and getting ready to get it listed, they go through and they blue tape it themselves as well.
5:50So we have two sets of blue tapes going on. And then we always have a pre inspection come through a third party to look for any other sorts of issues with the house. Some investors don't want that because they say, hey, I don't want to know about it because I don't have to disclose it. I'm the opposite. I want to know about everything. That way we can go through that list and tell the buyers up front if we're not going to do something. And what we did complete, you know, and what I will say is when that buyer gets in contract, their inspector is going to find a completely different list. That's the way this goes.
6:22But what it does is it shows that potential buyer that we care. Do you actually share the pre-inspection with the buyer? We do. We are proactive. We go take photos of what we completed. We show invoices. And then one thing that we've also worked into our process is we pay the money to have that same inspector go sign off on everything because our team was doing it. But then it's like, no, no, we want a third party to do it. And again, it's not about the items. It's just showing that, you know, like flippers have a bad name too. They want to get things done, get it done as cheap as possible, don't care.
6:55But it shows that potential buyer that we care about the product that we're selling. And that goes a really long way. You know, we sell a lot of houses. They're taking longer to sell, but we don't lose many in contract. And so take the time because if you lose that first buyer, you're going to sell for less and it's going to take longer. That's very good advice, I think, for anyone who's experienced this. I agree with you. It doesn't necessarily seem like we're fully in a buyer's market because prices aren't even dropping that much. It's just that everything's taking longer. I think people are really choosing to sit back and be as picky as they possibly could.
7:30It feels like for a couple of years, it was the equivalent of Black Friday Target. People were just sprinting into the housing market and just grabbing whatever they could and just like checking out really quickly. And now we've like gone back to a normal shopping experience, which you're saying and pointing out has some implications for sellers. But as a buyer, this is a much better situation, I think, than we've seen in years. Like the flip side of these challenging selling conditions is that acquisitions are getting much, much easier. I've gotten more phone calls from agents and people in the last like two months than I have in a long time with people offering actually good deals.
8:11And for me as an investor, it feels good. Like people are competing for your money again instead of you like having to like go out and find opportunities and beg people to take your money for their deals. Yeah, no, it's like that here too. Like my agent always keeps us up to date on inventory in our market. He told me we just hit four months of inventory on the market, which puts us at a neutral market. So technically here in Northwest Arkansas, not a buyer's market yet, not a seller's market yet. We're hovering right in the middle, but it looks like we're moving towards a buyer's market if inventory continues to rise.
8:45So you need to be able to track those things because all this does is help you adjust your underwriting. If you're going to get more deals across your desk, like Dave's saying, you better know how to evaluate them. I was literally having a conversation with a wholesaler right before this podcast. And he was asking me, can I raise my offer by five grand? It's just five grand. Can you go up five grand? And I kept telling him, no, I was like, this is where I need to be. I am just not willing to go above even a little bit on my numbers because I need that margin for holding costs. That margin is a big deal right now.
9:19And so even five grand, five grand is like two months of holding costs. That could be the difference between making money, breaking even, or losing money if the deal sits too long. So no, I can't go up on my numbers. So you really have to pay attention and evaluate your deals and underwrite appropriately. Yeah, and be proactive. That's the key right now. Like have multiple different ways that you can take down a deal with different types of financing. Usually, like when we ran our performance, it was like, okay, how long is the construction going to take? That's more what we were worried about.
9:45And then it's like, all right, 60 days to close, plus two months. now i'm throwing plus four on because it's just you got to bring in that extra time and i also have to look at the the returns differently but going back to the article you have to be proactive because like you know a lot of the buyers are walking because they get their inspection and they throw these crazy numbers at the cost you're like wait you want me to pay it give you a hundred thousand dollar credit because my hot water tank is 12 years old and my room it only has five years left and you want a gold toilet. I got you. But there's also other things you guys right now, like with the government shutdown, there's different types of loan products that are at risk.
10:23And you got flood insurance, you got FHA. We have a mortgage broker on every one of our listings has pre-qualified that listing for rate buy downs, different types of financing options. And so that way when the buyer goes, oh, the loan I was going to get, it's just not working out right. I'm going to wait this out for a while until this settles down. Why? What if we can get you a better loan where your rate's lower, right? And these are ways that you can keep your deal together. Punch it out. Make sure that you provide that buyer the resources because unfortunately, you guys, a lot of times their broker does not.
10:56And so we like to do their broker's job by giving them other options so they don't walk from the deal. All I could say is that But the way I define a buyer's market or a seller's market is in a buyer's market, the buyer has more power. In a seller's market, the seller has more power. So to me, having several subdivisions in different cities around the country, and also just being on the buyer's side as well, on the sell side, it's been very slow. But those are new homes, and they are harder to sell because they're more expensive. But on the buy side with our single family rental fund, it is totally time to negotiate.
11:34So it works great on the buy side these days for us. And on the sell side is definitely harder. It's just a perfect example of how every market has its tradeoffs. Sometimes it's better for sellers. Sometimes it's better for buyers. Sometimes it's harder to find deals and there's more competition, but you get tons of appreciation. Sometimes appreciation is slower, but it's easier to find deals. The whole point of being an investor, the whole game is to adapt your strategy and your tactics to what's going on. That's why we have this podcast. So good job listening to this. But what we've talked about so far in today's episode is just what's going on short term in the housing market.
12:08But I want to turn our conversation to the long term prospects of the housing market because there was a new study that just came out showing where housing prices are heading by 2035. We're going to get into that right after this break. Vacation is expensive. your empty place doesn't have to be. If you're heading out of town and your home is sitting empty, you could list your space on Airbnb while you're away and turn those unused nights into extra income. And with Airbnb's co-host network, getting started is more straightforward than most people think. You can hire a vetted local co-host with hosting experience who could create your listing, manage reservations, handle guest communications, and even provide onsite support for guests during their stay.
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14:40Welcome back to On the Market. I'm Dave Meyer here with James, Kathy, and Henry talking the latest headlines. Before the break, we talked about how more buyers are canceling, and that does have some potential implications for the short-term direction of the housing market. We're seeing things flatten out. A lot of markets are turning negative. I personally think more are going to turn negative over the next couple of years, but we're in real estate investing for the long term. It is not about what's happening in the next six months or year or two years. At least for me, I am in this industry because I believe in housing over the long run.
15:13And I saw an article this last week where Moody's Analytics came out with their forecast for where housing prices are going to be through 2035. This is a very reputable company. They put out a lot of detailed information about the housing market. And what they're showing is that they think by the end of 2035, prices are going to be up. Anyone have any guess? 10 years? I'm going 11.5%. 25%. 20 %? Kathy, almost dead on, 23.5%. I mean, technically, I was the closest without going over, so price is right, I would have won. Bob Barker's not here, though. But both of you were very close. So what they're expecting is that prices will go up 23 % over the next 10 years.
16:03Now, I have some thoughts about this, but what are your reactions to that, 23 % over the next 10 years? Anyone have any feelings about that? It's only like 2 % a year. Yeah, that's very normal. That's right. That's super just normal. And kind of like you said in your keynote, Dave, just like not overwhelmingly exciting, kind of boring, but the kind of market I like. I'll take two to three percent any day. I love it. Yeah. That's how I feel about it. You're boring. You need some anxiety in your life. This is how I underwrite deals at two to three percent. That's what I expect. That's what I want.
16:32I just don't want negative two percent. That's all. Exactly. Well, what they're forecasting is in the next two years, they think that's going to be a little bit more painful. They're saying in 2026, nominal home prices are going to go up just a half a percent. 2027, 1.3%. And then from there, going back to normal levels of appreciation, 2 % to 3 % basically every year for the eight years after that. Now, I understand if you got into the industry in the last five years, you're probably like, that sounds terrible. But if you look at the last 60 years, the average appreciation rate in the United States is 3.4%.
17:094%. And what's often lost in the conversation about quote unquote appreciation on housing is a lot of appreciation is just inflation. Housing historically has marginally been better than the rate of inflation. And that's not a bad thing because one, if you're using leverage, you actually do better than inflation. And two, inflation sucks. So using real estate as an inflation hedge is actually a really valuable thing. But I just want people to understand this because I think this age of investing purely for appreciation is coming to a halt. Now, there are certainly pockets of the country and places where you can still do that.
17:51But in normal times in the real estate market, you can't just count on appreciation to grow wealth in any old average market in the United States, in any old average neighborhood. So you need to do one of two things. You need to get really good at identifying markets if you want to do that appreciation play. Or you need to go back to fundamentals of real estate investing, which is buying great assets at great prices, renovating them, fixing them up, making them better, and then operating them well. All that I'm saying here is that you just need to do normal things as a real estate investor. But I really just want to make sure people know, because I see this on social media all the time, invest for appreciation, invest for appreciation.
18:30You can do that if you're very good at identifying the places where it will grow faster than this, because there will be places, of course, that will grow faster than this. But you cannot count on this in a lot of areas, even the ones that are growing quickly right now. I invest in the Midwest because I like it because it's affordable and there's cash flow. But I am not counting on this appreciation that we've seen in Milwaukee at 11 % for the last two years. That's not going to continue. You should know that and you shouldn't count on that. And if it happens to happen, great. But please do not count on that.
19:03We are not in that era anymore. Well, let me tell you, James, I'm speaking to James, that it's not as boring as it sounds because Dave and I and Henry wouldn't be so excited if it were seriously that boring. So if you have a buy and hold property and you, let's just say$100 ,000 property, you put 20 % down, that's$20 ,000. Let's just say the property goes up 2 % in one year. That's$2 ,000. You put$20 ,000 in. So you made$2 ,000 on a$20 ,000 down payment in one year. We're not talking about cash flow. You got to add the cash flow in there, the tax benefits, the loan pay down. But if we only look at appreciation, that's a 10 % return.
19:47So it's not 2%. And that's where people get confused. They think, ah, you know, if you paid all cash, you're making 2%. And that's why owning real estate in slow growth markets with all cash is not the best return. It's probably the worst return because then you've got expenses and stuff. But if you have leveraged, that is where you make your money. And that's why, like Dave, I like the Midwest. I like the South. I like affordable places because I could still find homes in the$100 ,000,$200 ,000 range and make these kinds of numbers work. So anyway, that's why i'm i'm a fangirl of two percent man i love i love boring real estate it's the best it's the best it's predictable it's worked for so long you know james like just go jump off a cliff every like six months and you'll get your dopamine dump and then buy some boring real estate are we having an intervention right now is this is this a deal junkie intervention but in all honesty i think what we've seen over the last few years is like we saw this crazy seller's market.
20:51Now we're moving. It's not a crazy buyer's market, but transaction volume in the housing market is so slow right now. It is 20, 30 % below. To me, when I look at this and I do think prices need to, at least in real terms, need to come down a little bit. We need more affordability in the housing market. If we can get it more affordable and prices just grow at one to 3 % every year, we're going to get back to that boring old predictable housing market where you're not worrying about how days on market are changing every single week or, you know, these things will just be much more predictable. They'll move a little bit slower.
21:27And to me, predictable equals profitable. Like if you know what's going to happen, you can adjust your strategy to make money from it and to build a business around it. It's the lack of certainty that's difficult to navigate in whether the market's booming or slowing down. It's the uncertainty that's the trouble, not necessarily whether you're in one kind of market or another. I will say, I don't think it's boring. I think there's actually a lot of opportunity in that model right now, especially since dirt is low. People don't want to buy dirt. So you can get rentals on some really good land right now.
21:57And if you put that 20 % down, that's how you really enhance that value. But slow and steady, it wins the race. All right. Well, this is a great conversation and just something for everyone to keep in mind. Again, it is not something that you can't navigate, but it's something you need to adapt into your strategy. We do have to take one more quick break, but when we come back, we have some stories that are a little bit concerning about fraud. To me, this is the real risk in real estate right now, more than anything going on in the market, is fraud is on the rise and we're going to bring some of it to your attention to make sure that you can navigate around it and make sure you avoid it in your business.
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26:16Welcome back to On The Market. I'm here with Henry, James, and Kathy talking about the latest headlines. We've talked about long-term forecasts, buyers canceling more contracts. Henry, what do you got for us? All right. So on October 1st, 2025, the Federal Trade Commission announced that due to a lapse in government funding that its mechanisms for fraud and for reporting fraud and identity theft would be unavailable to customers during the government shutdown. So several services such as reportfraud.com and identitytheft.gov will be temporarily closed. They won't be making any updates to the website.
26:54In other words, anything that they're tracking in terms of the fraud and what's going on in the country is not going to be updated, reported on, or put on the website. And so that is opening the door for more fraud to happen in the country as a whole. But as it relates to real estate investors, I just think this is something that we need to be paying attention to. Because with technology and AI, it is very easy to trick people. And so you just need to be aware of what's going on and that fraud is on the rise and being careful because we do things like I wired money last night, right? You need to be aware that wire fraud exists and people know that it's harder for those things to be reported on.
27:35It's harder for those things to be tracked. And so there's an increase in wire fraud. I got a call yesterday. Someone showed up at a job site. It's not even a job site. It's a house I have listed on the market. It was a concrete company and they were ready to do a concrete job at my property. I didn't call them. I don't have a project manager. Nobody else would have called them. So there was something weird going on that this guy showed up. He was obviously upset. So you just need to be careful and make sure that we're paying attention, extra careful attention to our deals, our underwriting. There's title fraud happening.
28:08There's situations where people are trying to deed properties into other LLCs and people can lose their properties. So think about wire transfers and closings, secure emails and communications from your bank. You want to be able to verify that if you get a secure email, that it is actually from your bank before you open it. How do you do that? Like, what are the things you do, all of you, to avoid these kinds of frauds? Because I am so paranoid about these things. Do you guys have any, like, tricks for it? For WIRES, you've always, at least for me, I always call the title rep. I'm even afraid that I'm not talking to the actual title rep.
28:44So I ask. Oh, I do the same thing. Yeah. So I ask, you know, tell me about my file and make sure it's the right company and, you know, look it up online to verify that I'm calling the right company and then verify the wire instructions over the phone. It's just, I've seen it too many times. It happened to us on a development where$300 ,000 got stolen. We were able to claw it back, but not all of it. I've honestly been thinking about just going back to cashier's checks. I'm like, I'm just going to stop wiring money because at least a cashier's check, it takes longer, but at least there's recourse for it if something goes wrong and you can walk in somewhere and hand it to the person you know you need to do it with.
29:23Yeah, we got stung for 40 grand on wire fraud. How? It was a process we had to update. We had our ops person that's been with us for, he'd been with us a really long time. He had authorization to send wires for us because he'd been with us over 10 years. And someone had cloned my email and they watched me for months. And they saw how me and him communicated via email. And when they sent him an email, it looked like I wrote it. And he didn't think much of it. It was a 40 grand earnest money wire. And it fired out. And that was because we had authorized it. we didn't get our money back. It was gone.
29:57And so, you know, we had to update our processes like that doesn't happen anymore. My business partner, I, we used to verify each other's wires quite a bit. Just get the money out. We don't do that anymore. If it's my deal, I'm verifying. If it's his deal, he verifies. And so, yeah, you really do got to be careful. And just so people know, like these are things that you guys were doing prior to the government shutdown. Right. And so now that the shutdown is in place, there's more opportunity for people to take advantage of you. So you must be diligent. You can request that your bank send you secure emails that require you to log in with a with an email and a password in order to review the email.
30:33So at least you understand or know where that's coming from. I have the phone number, the personal phone number of the bankers I deal with the most. I'm always able to call them separately and make sure that, hey, is this email from you guys? Is this wire transfer happening today? Right. It's just about taking the extra step and taking a little more time. If you get an email that just feels a little funny, call and verify. And it's AI that's really going to take this to the next level, whether the government shut down or not. And a good friend of ours, somebody was able to fake his voice and did a Zoom call.
31:05And it was his voice saying, I need$300 ,000 transferred. And the bookkeeper was like, OK. They didn't do video. That was the difference. But now video is going to be good enough. Especially for those of us who are on video a lot. It's so easy to fake us. So I don't really know how you prevent that. But I think it's going to take companies bringing in specialists on that to protect their computers. Because people like who it was James that said they can log into your computer and start to watch the communications and send emails as if it's from you. Is that kind of how they did it? Yeah. And that was back in 2016.
31:44So this is, they've gotten a lot more advanced. So you just have to invest in those things. But as you build out your businesses, you got to start planning ahead for this. Like, oh, I got to build in fraud security into my budget for the year instead of marketing. You know, it's just different. All right. Well, we actually have one more story about fraud before we get out of here. Kathy, share this one with us. Yeah, this one really bums me out because it is someone I know. I'm not close friends, but a colleague that I would run into at conventions and conferences and stuff and is actually doing a similar business to what RealWealth does.
32:16But this headline is from United States Attorney's Office, Central District of California, former CEO of Orange County-based private equity fund, charged with conning investors out of$62 million via bogus promissory notes. So this is Marco Santorelli. He's got a podcasted real estate, well-known, Narada. It's basically Narada. He was selling turnkey properties, kind of just a very bread and butter business, doing great. Then in 2020, he started sending out emails about raising money for, I think it was cannabis warehouses. Bottom line is he was raising money through promissory notes, which is basically just a promise to pay.
33:00It isn't secured to anything. According to information filed on Monday, Centrale solicited hundreds of investors nationwide to invest in these unsecured promissory notes, ranging from$25 ,000 to$500 ,000 and promised a high yield monthly interest rate. Here's where people should have been like, monthly interest rate, approximately 12 % to 15 % over three to seven years. Basically, he wasn't able to do that. And the promise couldn't be kept because it was such a high offer. I think probably cannabis was yielding huge returns. But then he started investing in theater and crypto. And it sounds like all of that would have been okay.
33:44If somebody says, give me money, promissory note, I promise to pay you back, we're going to invest it in crypto, it doesn't go well. You can't collect. It's not secured to anything. There's no fraud there. If you agree, we're going to invest in this, it doesn't go well. I don't think you can sue. I don't think you've done anything wrong. Where he made his mistake is then he continued, at least according to this, raising money and paying off the former investors, which is, of course, Ponzi. So there's so much to unpack here. Number one, please, guys, don't invest in things that people are saying you're going to get 12 % to 15 % a month.
34:19That's very, very hard to do. Yeah, that just doesn't make sense. Come on. If it's too good to be true, it is. Was that monthly or annually? Maybe it was wrong. He promised via marketing a high-yield monthly interest rate. Maybe it was 12 % to 15 % a year. It's perhaps worded weird here. I mean, that's pretty standard. And sure, I'm sure he could have achieved 12 % to 15 % a year. That's not uncommon. Yeah, that's reasonable. But when things go bad, if you are operating the deal, just tell your investors. Don't try to raise more money to make up for the mistake unless you tell the new investors, hey, we're raising money to make up for this mistake.
34:59Like, oh my gosh, this might be the 10th person I know who's done a Ponzi. It's like, maybe they're just afraid to admit that it didn't go well. You know, everything would be okay if he just was like, hey, it's not going to work. But then you can't raise more money. So anyway, what do you guys think? These are allegations so far. It's just an indictment. There hasn't been. Yes, it's allegations only. Yeah, but, you know, whether it's this one or other situations, it just seems like the The world of syndications in real estate is rife with this kind of risk. This stuff just exists. So I'm curious, Kathy, you raise money for syndications.
35:38How can people trust operators? Because I invest in syndications. It's a great way to invest. I like it. But I do it with only people I know personally. This is someone you did know. So how can you protect yourself against these things? Well, there's a couple of things. In this, it says, the balance sheet sent to investors hid more than$90 million in debt and included inflated assets. In Ponzi scheme fashion, Santorelli made interest payments to investors using other investors' money. So again, alleged, and this is just a press release from the attorney's office. I knew right away this wasn't a deal because unsecured, why?
36:17Why would you do an unsecured note when you can do a secured note? And for anyone who doesn't know the difference, a promissory note is a promise to pay. But if a company can't pay, I'm sure it was an LLC, you can sue the LLC, but there's no money in it. It's a limited liability company. So you're not going to get anything back in an unsecured note. Literally just a promise. It's just, yes. Like, why? That's literally what it is. Whereas a secured one, I'm in a deal right now where I lent money. The deal didn't go well. It's secure to the property. We're going to take the property. We have collateral.
36:47all. That's what's so great about real estate. So right off the bat, when he kind of approached me about it, I was like, never in a million years. But how do you vet a syndicate? Well, thankfully, you guys have passive pockets to help people with the many, many intricacies of investing in passive projects with syndicators. There's far more than I could discuss here. But track record is super helpful, but not everything, because there's plenty of people with track records who have bad deals, you know? So you've got to, there's a whole lot of ways. How about background checks? I like your idea, Henry.
37:22What about background checks? Can you go hire like a old school private eye to go like follow them around? Yeah, I mean, depending on how much money you're putting into it, why wouldn't you consider doing something like that? You background check for tenants that rent your property for$1 ,000 a month. I've done that before. A private eye? Yeah. I've done it, yeah. I've done it after, like I said, I know 10 people now who started off doing great business and then ended up in a Ponzi. So yeah, like, yes, background checks. Investing in just a promise or a note is such a bad idea. When you're going to invest in anything, you got to vet the asset.
37:55What is it being secured against? Will it stand on its own if the operator goes away, right? That is your security right there. Then yes, the operator, you should check out. Do they have assets? Do they own real estate? You know, like I'm not going to invest with someone if they don't own assets. That's weird to me. It's all you're doing is taking on debt everywhere you go. Are they responsible? Do they have good credit? Maybe they have a story about it, but like good credit. Do they have assets? And also do they have money? I've experienced all sorts of fraud in the last 20 years from Ponzi schemes to fake sellers with fake deeds, with fake wholesalers to fake contractors.
38:32Every time I've gotten stung, it's because I kind of didn't dig into the person good enough. I surface looked at it. All right. Well, this is a depressing.
38:43Well, thank you guys for bringing these stories. I'm joking about it being depressing because obviously we want to bring these things to light so people are aware of the things that are going on. Because, you know, this happens, unfortunately, in most industries. It happens in real estate. And, you know, as people, it's been a tough couple of years in real estate. And as people find themselves in compromised situations, unfortunately, sometimes they turn to unsavory options. We don't know if this particular person is guilty or not, but we have seen a lot of convictions with these kinds of things in real estate over the last couple of years.
39:17So something to keep an eye out for. But as we talked about earlier in the show, a lot more opportunity coming in real estate. There's better buying opportunity. And that's something that we should all be excited about. So, James, Kathy, Henry, thank you all so much for being here. It was fun hanging out with you. Always so fun. Good times. All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening to this episode of On the Market. it. We'll see you next time. You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfair gets it. Planning on dining al fresco or relaxing poolside?
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From the publisher
Feeling anxious about the housing market? You're not alone. Recent data show that U.S. cancellation rates for property deals have reached a record high this year, with buyers taking advantage of more moderate conditions to re-evaluate their options. With a projected 10-year increase in housing prices by about 23.5%, experts suggest we may finally be heading towards a more stable market environment, where traditional investment strategies like securing great assets at fair prices could truly shine. Curious about how real estate fraud could impact investors as the market evolves? We’ll also explore rising cases of fraud and the steps you can take to protect yourself. Dive into this episode as we unravel the complexities of short-term housing trends and long-term predictions, while maintaining a proactive approach to safeguarding your investments.
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