Applying leadership frameworks to AI

0:00Whether it's about ethics or AI or leadership or how we treat one another or how we treat clients or how we treat vendors. There's a great Ralph Waldo Emerson quote, which is, what you do speak so loudly, I can't hear what you say. So it starts with what you say, but if the leader is not living it, especially around ethics, there's a big gap. It gives you a big credibility gap. when the leader says one thing and lives and acts another way. So just be very mindful to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

0:36Jason Mudd: Welcome to On Top of PR with Jason Mudd. Hello and welcome to On Top of PR. I'm your host, Jason Mudd with Axia Public Relations. Today, I'm joined by my friend and repeat guest of On Top of PR, Ken Jacobs. Ken Jacobs is an executive coach, consultant, and principal of Jacobs Consulting and Executive Coaching, where he helps public relations, communication, and marketing leaders become more effective and inspiring leaders. Before launching his consulting practice, Ken spent 25 years in leadership roles at leading PR firms. He also hosts Taking the Lead, a leadership video podcast, and writes the quarterly Taking the Lead column for the Public Relations Society of America's Strategy and Tactics magazine.

1:27Jason Mudd: Ken, welcome back. It is so nice to be back. Thank you, my friend. It is good to be here. Well, I'm glad you're here, too. I know we've been talking about getting you back on the show for a while. Today, we're going to talk about applying proven leadership frameworks to AI. AI is a hot topic. You're a great speaker on leadership and leadership practices. And so AI is coming at us. It's coming at us fast, has been for years. And our friend Martin's been talking about this for as long as I've known him. And some of us thought he was a little out there off his rocker on this topic, but he turned out to be exactly right about all the things he was talking about all along.

2:06Jason Mudd: I've had Martin on the show and given him all due credit. So that's funny. What we want to talk about are what are some of the important things leaders should do to make sure their companies and their organizations are keeping up. And also, Ken, you're so good at this. You know, how do you empower your team by both setting an example as well as giving them permission to try new things? That's the kind of thing I'm hoping we could address today for our audience who might be finding themselves, you know, real quick, just a little background. I got back a month or so ago from the Agency Management Institute Summit, and they did a lot of research on what's going on in marketing and PR and things like that.

2:49Jason Mudd: And the one observation they made that I thought was really interesting is that more and more clients or brands are leaning heavily on their outside agencies to help them be competitive in the AI space. Because due to compliance, legal, or just slow moving organizations, the leader and their team is not fully empowered to use AI. And so that was kind of an interesting takeaway from the session is that that's both a risk and a reward, right? You as the agency, you have the opportunity to help your client. You as the agency are being sent work that the client wants to leverage AI capabilities for.

3:31Jason Mudd: But if it doesn't go well, they're probably going to disavow that kind of activity or whatever it might be because maybe they're forbidden or very limited on what they can do internally. For example, some corporations, this has been years, but I hear it still exists, have built their own AI platforms in-house, and it's only trained on the data internally, can't factor in or pull from external data. Now, there's just a news report yesterday in the news that out of the OpenAI Lab, an AI platform that was supposed to be limited found a way to get out and pull data from somewhere else. So I'm sure they're worried about their tools doing this exact same thing.

4:12Jason Mudd: But I set that as a table because our audience is typically brands who may or may not be working with an agency, but they're trying to solve this AI challenge. How does our brand stay competitive and maybe even outsmart or out leverage AI for their organization? And that comes with challenges of which leadership is facing as well. So here are you, Ken, no pressure, but our expert on leadership. So last time you were on the show, we were kind of in the midst of getting out of COVID. We were talking about how COVID was a significant leadership challenge. Almost feels predictably now that we're in yet another period of uncertainty.

4:58Jason Mudd: Seems like our profession, our business, our lives just continue to be more complicated. Simplicity seems like it's so long ago. And here we are in this era of navigating, you know, new disruptive technology on a regular basis, but a whole nother level with AI. AI is not going away. It's not slowing down. It's not getting less capabilities. And the adoption rate is not going to get any slower. So talk to me about how you guide your clients through these difficult challenges, you know, that are starting to become more normalized is what I'm trying to say. And what should our peers and colleagues be thinking about within the constraints and the opportunities that present with us here?

5:44So a couple of things, you know, I think when you think of PR, comms, marketing, truly effective leaders have always led their organizations and their people through change. That is a big part of the role of the responsibility of leadership in communications, PR, marketing, whatever you want to call it. So this is yet another change. It feels more profound. It feels deeper. It feels faster. And let me say, if you're not already deep in AI, you're behind, but also it's never too late. I believe that as with any new technology or really any new change, it's critical to approach it without fear. Of course, there's some risk of what if we get it wrong, et cetera, et cetera.

6:30But I'm a big believer in, well, what if we get it right? What if we get it right? And I'm a big believer as a leadership coach in rather than come from a place of fear or anxiety, that you come to it from a place of risk mitigation. We can acknowledge all the things that might go wrong. We can create plans for that. And I think that mindset is very different than fear or anxiety. At the same time, we've got to be very mindful of the guardrails and especially the ethics around which you create organizational acceptance and approach to AI use. Because when you think of all the changes we've led our clients through or our people through, our companies through, you know, whether it's, I'm old enough to say from electric typewriter to word processor to computer, whether you talk about, you know, the web version 2.0, the rise of social media.

7:36Those are all things that PR comms marketing people helped their teams and their organizations and their clients through. But this does feel, you know, again, a little deeper and more profound. I would say that one thing the leader must do is have a company-wide policy that address the guardrails, the ethics. You know, how will we identify that we've used AI? What will we use it for? And that affects your contracts, right, with your clients. But you've got to be in charge of setting the policy. And if you as the leader don't feel you have the knowledge, you know, two part, you've got to get someone in charge who can articulate it, repeat it, repeat it, have discussions, enforce the policy, knowing that your newer generations may be more comfortable with it than you.

8:38But again, guardrails and ethics policy, so, so critically important. Now, a great leader may say, you know, I don't have the true knowledge here to lead this, so maybe you have a second in command who does. At the same time, I think true leaders update their knowledge, update their fluency. They jump in. They may not be, the leader may not be able to be the SME on AI, the subject matter expert, but boy, you've got to have at least a working knowledge because when that SME comes to you and says, we need to do this, we need to add that, you as a leader have got to be able to ask the right kind of questions.

9:23So you don't need to be as knowledgeable as them, but you may not need to be fluent, but you've got to have that working knowledge. So I encourage any leader who hasn't put their toe in the water, go ahead and do it. Go ahead and do it. Start to understand the basics. And, you know, you mentioned our friend Martin, I assume you mean Martin Flaxman earlier. yes one of the martins i know and he's got a lot of great stuff on linkedin learning about this and of course being canadian he's such a lovely style you know he's a great teacher you know for something that can feel very threatening you know he is someone that i think would would help you be

10:11Jason Mudd: comfortable on that journey and we'll put in the episode notes a link to mark or to his martin's episode. And you can find that if you're tuned in, you can find that at on top of PR.com slash Ken dash Jacobs with the number two, since this is your second appearance. And you'll have to add the number two at the end. But there you can get a direct link to see Martin Waxman's episode as well, which was very good, of course. And I like what you said here, a couple of leadership principles, right, that strike home with me. Number one, you said ethical, right? That's always important. And I think you and I have talked about this off and on over the years, but as a leader, you have to not only have a commitment to ethics yourself, but you've got to talk about it.

11:04Jason Mudd: You've got to rehearse. You've got to share scenarios, both real or rehearsed, right, with your team. So we have, for example, like a quarterly ethics, I don't want to call it quiz. I don't know what word we landed on, but we do like scenarios where once a quarter we ask people to complete this exercise. And, you know, it's a few scenario questions with multiple choice answers. And they're designed around real life scenarios that we've seen in our 20 something years at Axia or I've seen in my 30 years of my career. And we update them. We add more. You know, we never seem to take away any, but we add things based on situational analysis that we've had kind of thing.

11:46Jason Mudd: And so my point is, is lead with ethics, obviously. I like what you said of like, you know, you didn't say it this way, but practice what you preach. Like you can't expect to not use AI, not be familiar with it, but then empower people, coach people, lead people through it. And you said you could also lean on your number two. But, you know, early in my career, Ken, I was very good at running a web design company that was within another organization, right? So And the company got acquired, ownership exited or got reassigned to do something else. And next thing you know, I'm now in charge of internet operations for this corporation, right?

12:28Jason Mudd: And suddenly I've got network engineers working for me. And I don't know anything about networking or engineering unless you mean show up to an event and, you know, engineer reputation. I can do some of those things, right? But I certainly can't program a router or anything like that. But now suddenly these people are reporting to me. Well, I'll be honest, from running a web design company, I knew how to know enough to, you know, to have a BS detector, right? And to just kind of logically listen to someone and kind of say, well, have you thought about this or thought about that? And humbly, I'll say, I thought I fixed a lot of challenges just by being a good listener and actually kind of being a third party observer from the outside looking in.

13:13Jason Mudd: So I'm saying these things to say, I liked what you said about being ethical. I like what you said about investing in your own professional development. I like what you said about listening to others. And then lastly, you said repeat it. And I think that's something as leaders, we tend to forget. You know, you can't just tell people something once. They might remember it, but they also will remember, gosh, I haven't heard him mention that in a while, him or her. So it might not be that important anymore. But even just today, we did a workshop internally at Axia on AI, and we are showing our team how to build custom GPTs or custom projects or whatever it might be.

13:55Jason Mudd: and it was very helpful because there's a few people who have never done it before. There's a few people who are doing it currently or who are actively doing these and we don't have all the answers but collectively we had new insight and suggestions and ways that things work or don't work and it was a very collaborative session. Now what I love about this is it started to reveal internally who's using it, who's not, what's being done well and where we could improve more And as we're thinking collectively about the tools and about the platforms, we become wiser to figure out, OK, you know, this needs to be dedicated.

14:32Jason Mudd: This could be a spinoff of that or whatever. And so we're just getting better all the time. And that's one of our core values is improvement. Right. So, you know, we want to get one percent better every day. Today, as an organization with AI, we got a lot better today because of the level of collaboration that occurred. and i think can i respond to a couple of really important things you said let's do that forget i love that you have that emphasis on ethics that that you do it with frequency that is so so important and one thing i want to add to that is whether it's about ethics or ai or leadership or or how we treat one another or how we treat clients or how we treat vendors there's a great Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that I don't think I used last time, which is, what you do speak so loudly, I can't hear what you say.

15:27So it starts with what you say, but if the leader is not living it, especially around ethics, there's a big gap. It gives you a big credibility gap. And people have a very finely tuned BS meter when the leader says one thing and lives and acts another way. So just be very mindful to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Because again, if you say these things are important, ethics or this, how we treat one another, but you don't bring that as a leader, it's very disjointing for your teams. And it makes them very uncomfortable and they don't know how to follow the leader. So whatever you say, make sure you do.

16:15The other thing I'd add is that when I think of all the PR pros I've worked with over the years, and I was one, so I can say this, I think we talk a little too much. So one thing that will really shift your effectiveness as a leader, I think whether it comes to AI or anything else, talk a little bit and then get feedback and listen and ask a great question and really listen to the answer and then ask another question, which means ultimately, you know, if your natural style is speaking 70, listening 30, maybe flip that. Maybe speak, you know, 30 or 40 and listen more because it's only in listening that you understand.

17:07Do my people really understand this? Do they really get it? And one other thing, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, especially on anything in the tech area, your younger gens may be on top of it. So make sure you're asking them. I mean, the right ones, the ones that have some knowledge, of course, But those leaders in training, maybe, who can really contribute to the right kind of policy, the right kind of learning, and the right kind of ethical approach to AI. Right.

17:46Jason Mudd: Yeah. You know, I agree with everything you said, except for the generational thing doesn't seem to, you know, be as relative, I think, with the AI, because I'm seeing I don't really focus on, you know, the different generational tags or descriptions or names, but I think it's a personality thing. I think it's the willingness to be an adopter, an early adopter, and those types of activities that I'm seeing. But either way, I tend to agree with you. Some of my best leadership moments have been when I'm silent and I'm listening. Also, my preferred style is to let everybody else go first before I share my opinion because I want to hear what others are thinking and give them an opportunity to lead as well.

18:26And that is so smart, right? Because if the leader talks first, they're all going to agree. Right. And you won't know what they're really feeling. And I think asking first, getting the collaboration, getting their thoughts. The other thing is, let's say there's eight things you want them to know of that AI. You could stand up there and puff out your chest and tell them these eight things. But if you go around the room first, you may find that collectively, they know six of those things. And then all you have to say is, wow, guys, those six are really great. May I add two more? And the reason we do the technique of asking permission, of course you can add two more.

19:10You're the CEO or the president, you're the leader. But when you ask permission, hey, can I add some more? It opens up people's brains and it gets rid of any defense. May I share some things? Of course, Jason. They're much more open and they'll probably remember it.

19:29Jason Mudd: So the language there is, may I share something more? May I share some? Well, I'd start with, wow, those six are really great. May I add two more? Something like that. Okay, got it. Yeah, no, that's very helpful. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. And, you know, you and I are like-minded in that we have the commitment to ethics and leading with ethics, which is, I'm just going to say our first core value is integrity. Right. And so when we're doing everything, we want to make sure we're doing with the highest integrity. And to that end, you mentioned earlier, something I'm seeing really fading away from the current practices is early on, we and others were documenting and saying, you know, this was AI generated.

20:12Jason Mudd: And I'm seeing less of that now, I think partially because people are realizing that you don't, you no longer say this was typed using Microsoft Word or I started this resume with a Microsoft template or something like that, right? And, you know, although you do see people say this is a WordPress website, but maybe they don't know how to get rid of it at the bottom anyway. But my point is just to say that I feel like somewhat that's a natural evolution as it becomes part of what we do. And I have a graphic. I'll try to make sure we add it to the episode notes at on top of PR dot com slash Ken dash Jacobs with the number two.

20:51Jason Mudd: That's Jacobs with an S. We have this thing that we created that shows kind of our recommendations for the best way to use AI. And it's in many ways no different than the best way to lead teams. And I was happy to find out that Steve Jobs was actually one of the people who's credited for this style, although I do believe it predates him. And the idea is if you look at a bar and let's say the bar is 100%, it's a horizontal bar. And so the first 10 or 20%, and I think it needs to be 10 % here, 10 % is the right number. First 10 % involves the leader setting the expectations and the vision for the project.

21:33Jason Mudd: The last 10 % shows the leader reviewing the final work of the project. In the middle, 80 % is done by someone else, right? It's done by the team of experts, the product engineers, the product development team, the marketing team, whatever it might be. And what I love about this idea is that the leader sets the vision in the beginning and the leader holds the team and the work product accountable to the standards of which they all agreed upon in the beginning. But in that middle, Steve Jobs, whoever it might be, Ken Jacobs, our audience, myself, Jason Mudd, steps away and lets the team do the work.

22:12Jason Mudd: And then comes back in when the team has reached a certain milestone that then, whether it's the leader, the CEO, or manager, is then reviewing that work. And to me, that's one, my preferred leadership style, right? Hire smart people and get out of their way. And then secondly, though, it's the same way that I think AI works best. So you start off by the right prompting, right? The right expectations being set. Then you get out of the way while the AI does the deep work for you and then come back and then double check the work, fact check the work, verify that it meets the standards and expectations of what you're looking for.

22:52Jason Mudd: Otherwise, if you just leave it running off without any kind of supervision or oversight or care, you never know what that product is going to look like. Yeah, you know, a couple of good things there. Yeah, we shouldn't be saying AI developed this because AI shouldn't be the only one developing it. But maybe in being upfront, there's a way of saying, here was AI's contribution to this, and here's what we did with it. Because then you can be reminding your client, we didn't just take it from Chad or even Claude. We added the human element, the discretionary element, the critical element. And so that's an important part.

23:33And that gets back to the AI policy that you don't accept the first, well, that you understand how to prompt, which I'm just beginning to get. You understand that AI hallucinates and you understand that certain AI, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, chat GPT is very bad at this. They want you to like them, and so they say things that make you want to like them. But there's a certain prompt you can give it. Maybe you know the word better than I. I'm having a senior moment and forgetting where you tell it, don't do this. I don't know if it's not don't be obsequious, but there's something you can do.

24:19But again, that goes back to the policy and the training of AI is just the start. and then we put in our brains, our critical thinking, all of that. But I do think it's important to somehow let the client know the role AI played. I think just out of candor, I think it's important. But again, that could be then a benefit because then you get to reiterate your value. This is why maybe we should have our agency doing the AI because they use it as a starting place, but then they add so much more. And then you never have that awkward feeling of, why didn't you tell me AI played a role? I think being upfront, and that goes back to the ethics, doesn't it?

25:06Jason Mudd: Yeah, absolutely. For sure. And at the end of the day, Ken, I like what you're talking about. And when I hear people talking about exactly what you're describing, it'll be overly flattering or overly favorable, or it'll just endorse the idea, right, that you have. One thing I encourage people to do is bring AI your challenge and just drop it in its lap saying like, you know, I need help with X or I'm looking for more, I'm just making up, looking for more leads or more visibility or a better script when talking to my team or something like that. And just like let it figure out how to solve it instead of saying, you know, I need a better press release for this announcement.

25:55Jason Mudd: Well, then it's just going to give you what you asked for. And the other thing I would say is just training and creating, you know, custom chats or custom GPTs or in quad custom projects or in Gemini custom gyms that are trained of what you want it to do or how you expect what you expect it to do, because that takes away the, for lack of a better word, the simple or sophomoric approach that, you know, or unsophisticated way of using the technology. So, you know, when people tell me all the time, well, I can tell when something's AI generated, I say, no, you really can't. You can tell when something is poorly AI generated, right?

26:36That's a good point. Now we're using AI like we use media. It's such a broad, like, what are we really talking about? Exactly. But I think there are ways to say, what am I missing here? What haven't I looked at yet? Who might oppose this proposal or this idea and why?

26:57Jason Mudd: Yes. You know, play devil's advocate. kid, I believe you can use AI to see what you haven't thought about yet. And that goes into the risk mitigation. Who might be opposed to this? How do I win them over? If I have two different approaches to this communication, what are the risks, pros and cons of each? So I know there are agencies doing that at a very core level, at a programming level, well beyond, as you said, just write a press release. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. So we just created just for what it's worth, Ken, there's a notoriously difficult retired assignment editor or assignment manager at a TV news show that we've gotten a lot of coverage with over the years.

27:49Jason Mudd: And one of the saddest things for me when, you know, he retired was that, you know, for, I don't know, decades, I worked with this individual and I felt like he may not have been the most encouraging person, but he made me better at what I did every time I went before him. And he would make a lot of people, I mean, I don't think this is a positive trait by any means, but he would make people cry, you know, because he was so curmudgeon and so hard to work with. But he always told you how he felt and he would always give you feedback like, you know, that's a terrible pitch or whatever it might be.

28:24And, and what I say to work on his communication stuff, you know, he could, he could take my course, how to give truly constructive feedback or how to be an empathetic

28:34Jason Mudd: leader. Right. But, uh, you know, I guess he doesn't need that anymore. But my point is, is that I was then inspired Ken to create a custom, uh, AI, uh, tool platform, uh, you know, GPT or project, whichever platform you're using, that would emulate his difficulty, his standard, right? And what was really crazy about this was all I told it was, are you familiar with this person, right? And it came back and said, he's a well-known TV assignment desk veteran who's known for high standards, gruffness, and all this other stuff. And I'm like, brilliant. You already know. And so I didn't have to train it a whole lot.

29:24Jason Mudd: It already knew a lot. But I took what it said and I said, okay, here's what I want you to do. Not to monopolize our conversation here, but I think you'll find this interesting. as I built this because of my knowledge and my desire. My first instinct, by the way, Ken, was can I get him to come out of retirement and do some consulting work for us, right? Some training, sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, through the grapevine, I heard he wouldn't be interested in that and very happily retired and whatever. But then I was like, well, I could just build this. So I built it based on what it already knew, built it, started testing it, Ken.

29:58Jason Mudd: And it was so good that I was like, oof. most of my team will not use this tool if it's that direct and you know and that intimidating right so then i re-engineered it a little bit to where it gives feedback in his natural authentic style of like this is terrible i would never use this or you're buried the lead and then i created my own persona to come behind and say what he's trying to tell you is you need to do more of this because he's not going to tell you how to fix it he's just going to tell you what's wrong with And my point is, is that after I test a little bit, added myself in as like the coach to guide my team, I think now it might be one of our favorite tools that we have inside the agency to really ensure that our team knows how to improve their pitches and almost gives them like an audition to audition their pitch in front of a cynical or difficult editor.

30:53Jason Mudd: You should call that mud GPT. That anecdote reminds me of two things. Every time I do a coaching session with someone in PR, and that's what most of my clients are, is PR incomes mostly. I'm like, I'm so glad I got out. It's so much harder now. I am so glad I got out. But the other thing it reminded me of, I ran at a very early age, large business, large chunk of business, major corporation. And there was a client there who was lovely and great and fun. And then he brought in someone who was much tougher than he was. And I got to tell you, I adored them both. We had lovely relationships, but I learned so much more from her.

31:43I learned so much more about upping my game and being a step ahead and anticipating her queries, whether we were fair or not. And she's the only client I really remember set me off so bad that I literally saw red. And literally, what they say is true. You see red and you're, and I was known as a kind of nice guy, right? And people were coming over to my desk and saying, what are you saying to the client are you crazy but i think she respected me a little more for that right and i certainly respected her because it was like i'm gonna bring my a game and everyone on my team has

32:24Jason Mudd: got to bring my a game with it yeah yeah well i had a professor in college at the missouri school of journalism and i was getting an a in his class and apparently he doesn't doesn't assign a's and And so one day after class, I had three other students who are master students waiting for me outside the classroom, almost like bullies. They want to know what I was doing to get an A in this guy's class. And I was like, OK. And so I just told him, I said, you know, he gave me a D on my first assignment. And I basically said, challenge accepted. Like, I now know what the standard is in this class and I'm competitive and I'm going to compete.

33:04Jason Mudd: And yeah, I mean, that I mean, trust me, I was crushed with that first D. but then I understood, okay, the standard here is excellence. I'm not going to be able to wing anything in here. I've got to bring my best work. And I got a reputation for earning an A in this weed out class that most people didn't get. So I want to give a salute to someone no longer with us, my eighth grade social studies teacher, Ms. Brady, who I had her in junior high school and then she moved up to the high school and um it was report and i was capable of a's and a minuses not not so much in math you know let's not discuss math but but in the other stuff and um i think it was third second third quarter and it was spring and of course the teacher could see all your other grades that she was known as being really tough really mean i didn't find it that way but She goes and she sees my report card with the grades and hands it to me.

34:09She says, well, Mr. Jacobs, I see that spring has sprung. And that did it. I didn't need her to make a speech about why are you getting B's? You're capable of A's. Not just in my class. Spring has sprung. And I was like, you're right. And by fourth quarter, all A's again. So it's, you know, isn't it funny the impact one phrase can have? And it wasn't done with meanness or spite. It was done. It was her way of saying you're capable of more. And that's inspiring in a teacher or a leader. So thank you for reminding me of Miss Catherine Grady.

34:52Jason Mudd: There you go. There you go. I don't want to ever misquote or give wrong attribution, but I think it was Bill Gates who said, and other people said, of course, but I think Bill Gates is known to have said, we learn more in life from our failures than we do our successes. Oh, there is a group of leaders in all kinds of industries who have supported that, who celebrated their failures, in air quotes, as steps on the road to success. So Gates, Einstein, Edison, Ella. Fitzgerald. I don't want to mispronounce his name, but the creator of Honda Motor Corporation, Dolly, Oprah, Lincoln, the Beatles, they've all talked about that.

35:42So we all say we want our people to take educated risks. You want them to do that, then you've got to share as a leader the educated risks you took and that sometimes you failed and here's what you learned from it and here's how it was just a stepping stone on the road to success. But that takes humility and vulnerability. You've got to be willing to discuss that with your people. And I think it's well worth doing.

36:13Jason Mudd: I agree. So thank you for reminding me of that. Well, and I think what strong leaders allow is for people, as we've talked about, is leaders to let their people fail forward and have that, provide them with the safety and the comfort, safety, and the environment and culture to support that because, you know, you've got to take risks. And so even just today, we were talking about a little bit about that, you know, as somebody came to me looking for a clear answer in the moment they wanted a solution. And instead, I said to them, take a minute, think of your three recommendations of how you would handle it if you were me and then tell me which one you would do.

36:53Jason Mudd: And of course, of course, she came up with the right answer, right? She didn't like the fact that I was pushing back because she was kind of treading water a little bit, right? But I knew that she had more insight into this client and into this matter than I ever would. And by the time she would bring me up to speed where I felt confident giving her advice, she could have gone through the same exercise and come back to me, she knew the answer, right? And I wanted her to feel empowered to come up with the answer. And she crushed it. I told her specifically, the third option, the one you recommend, is the one I would recommend to.

37:32Yeah, it reminds me of leadership is about having an ego, but being comfortable putting it to the side. There is an ego rush. There is a dopamine rush. And we say, here's what you need to do. And the person says, oh, great, great, great. But if you're willing to put that to the side and not answer right away and give that person the gift of, I believe you can figure this out. That's a huge gift from a leader. And someone who's treading water, having the leader state, I think you're capable of figuring this out. Let's take a pause. Let's take a break. Come back with your top two or three. Give me the pros and cons.

38:15Make your recommendation. And that's a very powerful thing for leaders to do. Another powerful thing is to not give all the answers, to simply say, here's where we need to get to. Now you tell me the strategies and you tell me the action. And I want to go back because something you said really brought up a visual. I don't know what it was exactly, but it goes to delegation and true empowerment. A lot of leaders are willing to delegate. You do this test, you do that test, you know, and the implication is do it the way I would do it, but that's not empowerment. it. And so for delegation to be effective, you've got to empower.

38:55That means being comfortable with the fact that they may do it differently than you, and they may do it better than you. And when you're truly delegating and empowering, it should be a little scary, right? Because you're scared to give up something you always did. They're scared to take on something they haven't done, but they need to grow into it. And the visual is, as a leader, you've been out on the trapeze and you're fine with it, right? Now the visual is they go out on the trapeze, but you're the safety net. You won't let them fail. And if when you're delegating and empowering, it's not a little scary for both, you've waited a little too long.

39:37Jason Mudd: Yeah, I agree. I agree with you on that. Ken, we need to wrap up. So let me ask you any closing thoughts tying this all back to this journey we're on with AI adoption. Yeah, well, I think, you know, for me, it feels like a time of uncertainty. Part of it is the huge impact of AI, economic uncertainty, political uncertainty, war. So I think it's while there are certain leadership truisms that have always been there, leading through uncertainty takes, most of all, a lot of courage. And I encourage the leaders I work with, and I talk about it in the podcast and in the column, to really be a lion.

40:23You know, courage is intrinsically linked with being a leader. Aristotle, Maya Angelou, Senator McCain have all talked about the linkage between courage and leadership. You know, one of the quotes is, if you're not courageous, you're not a leader. But you know me, I'm a positivist, I'm an optimist. So I say, if you want to be an effective leader, get in touch with that inner lion. You know, be courageous. Our brains are hardwired for fear, but our brains also love to create new neural pathways. They love to do things differently. It's, you know, neuroplasticity, right? Right. So be as courageous as you can, which it doesn't mean you don't have fear.

41:12Like Eleanor Roosevelt said, it's not about, of course, there'll be fear, but it is so important. And I don't know if you can see, she's one of my courage heroes back there, Eleanor. you know you must do one thing pick the thing that you think you cannot do and do it and I would encourage all your viewers and listeners pick one thing you think you cannot do and do it be more like Eleanor Roosevelt and you know we may think of her as having achieved so much as First Lady, the Declaration of Rights, you know, just an unstoppable supporter of civil rights and women's rights. But so many things happened in her youth, her childhood, and her early years of marriage that created tremendous anxiety and lack of confidence.

42:07And so she knew there'd always be some fears, but she went through, And I just find her so inspiring, especially today.

42:18Jason Mudd: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Ken, this has been a pleasure. Thank you. Well, we knew it would be. Well, we talked forever at the beginning and getting reconnected, which was great. I'm so glad to have you back on Top of PR. You're joining an elite club of a handful of people who have been on twice. Someday will I get the five-time host jacket. Yes, exactly. Yes, yes. Yes, we're working on that swag. Just need some bigger client budgets to make that investment. Appsy has great swag. I've always said that. Well, I appreciate that. I hope to see you soon at an upcoming event. And wrapping up, if our audience member wants to get connected with you or tag you when they post this on social media, what's the best way for them to do that?

43:06Three ways. I'm on LinkedIn. There are a lot of Ken Jacobs, but I think if you do Ken Jacobs comma PCC, so far I'm the only guy on LinkedIn with that. So find me there. You can email me, KEN at JACOBSCOMM.com. The website, not surprisingly, JACOBSCOMM.com. But find me on LinkedIn. We'll connect. I'm happy to say I'm known as a connector And I'm always happy to help If there's someone out of work If I can help, reach out to me Unfortunately, too many really talented PR and comps people Are looking for work If I can help, I will If you're recently entering our field And need some guidance around How do I stand out and get noticed?

43:58I'm hoping to help And I hope I can say if you want to explore being a more effective and inspired and inspiring and courageous leader, hit me up. We'll do a 45-minute session complimentary and we'll figure out if leadership coaching can help you achieve your goals. Right.

44:20Jason Mudd: I love that. I love that. That sounds great. And I appreciate you offering that to our audience here today. And I would encourage our audience to get more familiar with you and your content. We'll put your contact information in the episode notes so people can just one click, get to your LinkedIn and your website, et cetera. So Ken, we really appreciate that. And as always, if there's anything I can do for you, please don't hesitate to let me know. You're very kind. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you, Ken. Same here. So with that, this has been another episode of On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, brought to you by Axia Public Relations.

44:58Jason Mudd: If you found this episode helpful, please take a moment. Either leave us an online review or even better, share this episode with a friend or colleague who would benefit from it. With that, I'm signing off and wishing you well. This has been On Top of PR with Jason Mudd, presented by ReviewMaxer. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode and check out past shows at ontopofpr.com.

45:28Thank you.

45:55We'll see you soon.