Ronnie Fieg - How Kith Went From Streetwear to Luxury Without Selling Out

25:30And that's exactly right. It's all cyclical. I think such a good thing to look at. Ironically, I talked to Colin about this and I've done that with my core brand is looking at these like kind of tertiary brands. It's a great way to get your start. Like Deodora is a great example. Like Reebok was obviously distressed. ABG bought it. Now they're coming back. That's an example. I think Asics was like your crowning jewel where it's like you're kind of just getting started and it's a perfect partnership where it makes sense for both of you guys. And I think for brands out there, you got to look at that.

26:01Like Puma at one point, had it now they're obviously they're a little bit bigger and i consider them kind of one of the big boys but i think people out there need to start looking at what are those kind of secondary brands yeah that's another one right i mean when you look at the when you look at this book and you get to see the archive but also like the progression in silhouette and design through the last 15 years, you know, and it's not only with ASICS, there are, you know, multiple brands are on the spine of this book. Actually, you could see it's... We're going to pop that up there, guys.

26:38Yeah. It's incredible for me. Like when we were building the second floor of our office, literally, it was the second floor of the building, but it was also our second office that we built, right? Before we started building, we had this rare opportunity to have this really big space. And it's just a very long space that cuts an entire block, right? And we had a rare opportunity to lay out all of the product. So I decided to have the archivist, his name is Jordan. I had him lay out all of our footwear from day one. And I've saved almost everything, Almost everything. There were a few pairs that we had to go out and buy, but for the most part, all of the samples were saved.

27:26So unreleased samples that people have never seen. There's 1 ,200 unreleased samples in this book that people have never seen. So I was able to look at, you know, chronologically in order from 2011 to date, 15 years of product and the evolution when you walk the product. And that's why this exhibit that we have, We're going to have an exhibit for this book and it's all of the shoes and it's called walk the index because in the back of this book, there's the index to show all of these unreleased samples in the context of date. You know, the context, the chronological order, I think is very important for this so people can see the progression.

28:07So when I walked it and I got to see all of my work, all of my, just the footwear, the work of footwear in one space, that really blew my mind. Because what blew my mind wasn't like, oh, this product is so beautiful, which it is, but that's not what blew my mind. What blew my mind was how much product can evolve and still stay the same. so like some of these products were the same silhouettes that i worked on 15 years later but how much different the product looks today than it did then so you know we we really through the years we've been through so much and think about all of the shit that's happened think about all the different presidents we've had since we started all of the different artists that have

28:57Ronnie Fieg:come and gone all the different brands that have come and gone um when i was looking through the 10-year book, I was just thinking about where I was at in my life in conjunction with the product. It's very wild to think. We were saying off camera, I think there's very, very few brands that it's year seven and they're thinking about what is my 10-year book like? It's year 12, what is my 15-year book like? It's basically not, I don't know any other brands. Another brand is, I don't know if you know George from Represent. That's the only guy I know. I think he did a decade book, but I don't know anybody else that's thinking the way that you're thinking like that.

29:27Yeah, I mean, it took a lot to get over the hump. You know, these brands have, when you start a brand, there's so much of that feeling that it could all go to shit in a day. It could all go to zero. And I think COVID had everyone feeling that way. I felt like the brand was going to go away during COVID. Really? No, at the height of COVID. You know, it's easy to forget what COVID was. COVID was Armageddon. You know, like, I was like, oh, we're never going to get over this shit. and, you know, people are going to stop caring about product the way that they do today, like back then I'm saying, the way they cared about it before I would say, that's going to become less of a priority.

30:08Like now it's about family and life and death and I knew where I was emotionally. So I was like, this thing is going to topple over. And not only for the Kith brand, but in general, I felt like the category of retail was going to be in trouble, like real trouble. and it is today but not for the not for those reasons but I think I think that when you get to survive some of the scariest moments it's like it's like um it's like in life sometimes you go through certain things like dramatic moments in your life where you think it's like the end all of like there's like there's no getting past certain moments where you can't see past it you know, and it's no different for anyone who's starting a brand.

30:51You'll go through challenges where you'll feel like you're not going to be able to make it through it, you know, and I've had many of those challenges. I don't think anybody out there listening would guess that you had that. Outside of COVID, what's another moment in time where that you were scared that you weren't going to make payroll? You took too big of a bet.

31:09Ronnie Fieg:Was there any moment you can look back that you're like, we might not make it? Yeah, it was in the very beginning, you know, In the very beginning, I had those challenges. And then, you know, sometimes you make certain bets. I'll give you a good example. We had a store. When we first started, we were in the Atrium store. And we were on Broadway and Bleeker. I was on a 10-year lease. I was in year seven. I had three years left on my lease. And the traffic that we were getting, this is after Kith expanded into the Atrium space. So we had the whole corner. I used to get up. So I lived downtown at the time in the financial district.

31:43and I used to get off the train, the sixth train on Bleecker and look up and see this beautiful building on Lafayette. And at the time, and this is going to be hard for people to understand, above Houston on Lafayette, not below Houston, because I know what people are going to think when I say that. Above Houston, there wasn't a fucking soul walking on that block where that building was. And I remember feeling like the traffic that we were getting on Broadway and Bleeker, 50 % of the traffic was not the relevant traffic to the brand. They were just walking in and it was like this traffic from Broadway that I didn't love.

32:23It was just like people who were walking in and out of the space that I felt stopped us from being able to focus on one customer at a time. So I wanted the space, I wanted the brand to be like more of a destination. So walking out of, and this is a great story because I've never told this, but Walking out of, off the sixth train and seeing this building, that building, if you pull up pictures of 337, you know, Lafayette, it was like, I think that, you know, there were a couple of, there were eight different businesses being run in this building. And some of them were like, I remember, you know, I think certain people got locked up because they were running like a sweatshop out of there, you know?

33:04And, and, and the facade of the building, it looked like the thing was going to fucking crumble. And I used to say, this is the perfect fucking space if I ever get this building, this is going to be where I place the brand. So seven years later, I get a call about the building, right? And the opportunity was for us to get into that building and they would rebuild the space for me to sign a longer, like a long lease on it, which would mean that I had to break the lease where I was, pay to break the lease, take, and we were successful, very successful in the space on Broadway and Bleaker. I would have to break that lease, interrupt a successful business where I was getting a lot of traffic and then move to a space where there was no traffic, but it was bigger and it was its own space, meaning it was a standalone building for the brand.

33:55And I could envision what it would look like. And if you saw the building, you can never have the vision for what it can potentially look like. But I was able to like see past it and really build up this dream of what the space can feel like. Right. So we did that. And I took the space and I paid like some of the first like real money that I got to see, I paid to break a lease with that money. So it was a huge risk and a huge gamble. and I remember finishing building the space and I felt and I thought, this was my thought process, okay? If we were getting 800 people a day in the old space on Broadway and Bleecker, the idea was for me to have 300 people come a day and for me to - Higher conversion rate?

34:44Yeah, and no, not so much the conversion rate. It was about the service. What kind of relationships do we want to have with the consumer coming in? I wanted to maintain the relationships we had when I was a small space in the back of Atrium. And it was one-on-one. We were able to build relationships with the consumer. Then we expanded and we were getting the traffic coming in from Broadway, not Bleecker. And that changed. It changed the dynamic. And I was like, okay, I want to get 300 people in the space a day. So in the middle of building the space, which took a year, longer maybe, because they literally took down all of the brick and rebuilt it and had to maintain the look of the building.

35:26And through the process of rebuilding it, I was, I started to get like really nervous around us being able to maintain the traffic I needed to even break even. And for context too, this is obviously you're reinvesting in the brand to start. This is finally you maybe took some chips off the table and now you're reputting those chips back in to take this big, bold. I never took the chips off the table. By the way, and this is something that people should know. I've never taken the chips off the table. The only way we've gotten to be as big as we are is I've always put the chips back in I've been fortunate enough where I made investments early on now.

36:02Yeah, I make a paycheck Right, but in terms of a profit share all of the profit has gone back into the company That's how we've been able to grow. That's a nice balance sheet.

36:11Ronnie Fieg:I know that balance sheet looking nice Yeah, so so the capex Yearly for us in building these stores and building offices and you know our expenses are it's substantial, right? And I'm proud to say that we've been able to do it self-funded, right? So pouring the money back into the business here, building this building, and then before opening the building, I was like, I was petrified that we wouldn't have the traffic. So here's an example of like where I thought we wouldn't make it. But the second month after we opened, I was already getting the same traffic we did on Broadway in a space that was supposed to get, literally, I wanted a third of the traffic.

36:50Now we're getting the same traffic. And then from there, we've surpassed the traffic that we were getting on Broadway. And that was changing, literally changing human behavior for people to walk north of Houston on Lafayette. I was really worried about that. And honestly, that move in that specific location in that building is what helped the brand grow. Without that location, without that global flagship, I don't think it is what it is today. Yeah, I think so many people, they underestimate having the wrong person wear your stuff or being in the wrong look. It could do the complete opposite for you.

37:28Like I remember, I forgot which brand, they actually paid Mike's situation from Jersey Shore to wear the competitor's brand. So I feel like maybe you were getting just the wrong customer or not, you know, so you moved. Yeah, and it wasn't necessarily the wrong customer. And that's not the way we thought about it. It was the inability to build relationships with the customer. But when you think about opening a location where it becomes destination on Lafayette, because there was no walking traffic there.

37:53Ronnie Fieg:Really, there was no walking traffic between Bleeker and Gray Jones. You sound like Grutman with Miami. He took a bet on some kind of adjacent neighborhood early. Yeah. And it paid off huge. Yeah, I mean, look, this was still one block away from, or two blocks away, you could say, with Crosby. Two blocks is a lot in New York. It is. But the point of the story is, in saying this, is like the challenges that you need to overcome, typically, you know, in becoming a successful business, you're going to need to be uncomfortable and you're going to need to throw up a few times. And I did. And I've had sleepless nights.

38:32You know, my wife can attest to this. She's been like my guardian angel. Also, without her, I don't think any of this is possible, too. because you need the support emotionally to get through a lot of this shit. And I've been through a lot. And I think that, and I've had this conversation with multiple people, you know, one of my favorite people to speak to about shit that's going down and what I currently am thinking at the time is Marcus Troy. He's one of my favorite people. And he's a great artist. You know, he's been a friend since the very, very beginning and knows me before I started Kith.

39:08and that's someone that will keep me honest and also give me his opinion that really matters. That's the blog OG. Yeah, and be level-headed, you know? And I think that, you know, it's a conversation that I have, I've had multiple times with a few people recently on how the end result of what we do makes it look too easy or it's too, sometimes it looks polished in a way and that's what we do like we're so interested in giving you the best content around product where the product looks we maximize the potential what it could look like and the problem with that sometimes it's not a problem it's just it's just the bystander of it that we make it look easy because you don't see the struggle and the challenges it takes to to get from ideation to completion.

40:07And there's so many hands, you know, like when I'm in a design meeting today, you know, and the kind of people, the positions that are involved in bringing product from A to Z, it's, it's massive. It's like, you know, thinking about from design direction, which is me to designer, to assistant designer, to production, to development, to merchandising, to, you know, from the production side you have, then logistics, it becomes layered, but it doesn't, it doesn't impact the creativity around the product. What it does is it impacts how complex it can be to ship product globally, to make product in time for a season globally.

40:56How many sample rounds will you see? How many times do we get to fit the product? Like how many times will we get to change or will we get to change, not how many times, but will we get to change the fabric once we see the fit? So there's countless hours and energy and time being committed by so many people at the brand to deliver this product. But what people see is the finished product in the content rollout, which we spend also a lot of time and energy on, where people forget that it takes this much work to get it done. And it does take a lot of work. Like people will look at a hoodie or a t-shirt and think, okay, like they put a logo on a fucking hoodie.

41:43And no, man, like, no. Like if you look at, I'll give you an example. If you look at the sun faded hoodie that we just released for the Yankees or we're releasing this week, but by the time this comes out, it would have released. The process that it took to get that right, there's six samples in the process of getting that fade to look right. So it doesn't look blotchy. So the color is perfect. So the embroidered logo is perfect. So the fit is perfect. It's like people assume that it's just like, do this on that and get X in return. But it's way more complex than that, even with the more simple blocks and product that people take for granted.

42:27Yeah, there's a massive team in each one of those kind of sub buckets. Not even about... Materials, silhouettes, everything. Not only about the team, which is super important, just the amount of steps and hours it takes to make a product and a garment and a sock or a tee. Like it's not a, you know, here's a block, apply this fabric and this color and call it a day. Even when you apply, and this is, by the way, I'll give you a little 101. Some of the biggest brands in the world, you'll go into that brand, whether it's a fashion house or a store in the mall, doesn't matter, from the lowest to the highest in terms of price point.

43:06You'll walk in and you'll try a shirt on and it won't fit you. And then you'll say, oh, it's not made for my body type. That's why it doesn't fit. But no, that's not true. At some point, that body and that block, let's say the name of the style is Henry. You're trying on a Henry button-down. That's what it's called. At one point, that Henry block fit, but they changed the fabric. And when they changed the fabric, they didn't refit it. So, you know, if you take a heavier fabric, all of a sudden that piece is going to lay different on you. And I'm telling you for a fact that a big percentage of the brands don't refit with different fabrics and they use the same block.

43:51It happens a lot. We don't skip those steps, you know? And I'm such a stickler for this shit. And, you know, I've also been the fit model for so many years. I was going to mention that. That's fucking psycho. I spend, you know, I've now, and this is within the last year, I've taken a step back from fitting every product. I still fit, but I don't fit every single men's product, but I would fit four hours a week, three to four hours a week. It got to the point where like I was spending so much time on it that it was affecting everything else I was doing. So, but my point is for years, I'm talking about for 13 to 14 years of our 15 year existence, there was a consistent eye on the fit of every single skew we put out.

44:41So when you walk in to a kit store and you're trying on the product, and obviously there are some products that are meant to fit slimmer and some that are meant to fit cropped, but every product that you see there has been fit for the fabric. And that is something that a lot of brands skip on. Yeah. People don't, you know, if it's 50, 50 cotton poly versus 70, 30, it's a completely different drape on the body. Yeah. But yeah, but also you'll apply like got an Oxford to a shirt and then change it to wool and not refit it because you know that the block worked for you before. So a lot of these brands are taking shortcuts.

45:16That's the thing is like, that's what I mean by, you know, so many people don't realize the amount of work that we put in and love and time and tender love and care into product is everything, man. A lot of passion in his eyes there. I saw it through the glasses. They're tender love and care. Yeah. And by the way, I have a sensitivity to light, which is why I always wear sunglasses, which people fucking, you know, have a lot to say about that. I got no issues, bro. Live your life, bro. No, thank you, man. Stay comfy over there. That's what I'm saying. Fuck you. Ronnie Feig, margin profile, top down or bottom up?

45:46Is it just build the best shit and then I need to hit this margin profile for the MSRP? No, it's a lot simpler than that. Give people more than what they pay for. That's the motto. So like, for example, if we feel like we could sell a product for double what I could sell it for. I won't do it just because I could. So it's, this is, and this has a lot to do with, this is a merchandising exercise. And I have someone who's been with me for a long time. His name is Alex. He's great at what he does. We sit down with every single item. I'm still doing the buy. Like I'm, I'm, I'm sitting down for like, at times it could be four hours, five hours a week where I'm buying the product, looking at the product, pricing the product.

46:35So during the buy, we go through the pricing and we're deciding like what, what the garment should cost based on the cost of the goods, you know, but the goal always in every product that we make is to give the consumer more than what they pay for. Now, some consumers, they have a skewed perception as to what things should cost. And that has to do with what they're seeing from fast, you know, fast fashion or other retailers that are selling product for a lot less based on A, the quantity that they're buying and B, the fit and the quality of the fabrics. Like there's a lot that goes into it. So a t-shirt is not a t-shirt and a hoodie is not a hoodie.

47:18And I give you the lowest form of product to understand what I'm saying. I mean, your tees are heavyweight. You know, they're not little crap, all style 1301s. Like it's legit. And it's not only about the fabric weight. It's also about the construction of the product too and where the product is made. You know, so a lot of our products, a lot of our t-shirts come from Peru and a lot of our fabrics are very expensive. And I like the hand feel of these, of a lot of the t-shirts that we make because, you know, Peruvian cotton is amazing. But also we don't only make t-shirts in Peru for some of the t-shirts that we make in Asia and China, the washes are very important too.

47:57And people have this misconception about China. Like China makes amazing product, amazing product, you know? And China has the capabilities of making products that a lot of other countries don't have, you know? So this misconception around where the product is made, there are great factories in a lot of these countries that may, you know, be perceived as a less expensive make. But it's all about quality control, the fabrics that you're using, the construction. Like there's a lot more that goes into it. It's like people that talk about product, the end result of product, but not understanding what goes into it.

48:37You know, when I was younger at David Z and we were working on the Sebago product, I flew to DR where the product was made to learn. And I spent three weeks in the factory going from one station to the next and literally spending the time with the factory employees to learn how to make the footwear. I spent three weeks learning how to make it and then working on the line in each one of the lines, which we're doing, you know, they have served different purposes. One is like stitching the upper. The other one is cementing the upper to the sole. the other line is literally hand sewing the mock stitch so i got to learn the process of making a shoe from a to z i can make a shoe from a to z given the right machinery we're hunting the cobbler let's go yeah but the problem is like i could speak to it because i know it yeah right the problem becomes when people speak to to product and they don't know how the product is made

49:36Ronnie Fieg:and today you could learn about that dude it's so crazy like people don't understand like a simple t-shirt. Yeah. Like you could give a silhouette that you like go in and like, you know what they do? They, it's like the vanilla folder, that thing. And they, and they outline it. Like I've gone in and like built my own t-shirts. Yeah. It's not that hard to start to get kind of down the initial stuff. It's a lot of fun. That's a great piece of advice for people out there to take is like, think about how much you learned in those three weeks in that factory. You know there's a store in Japan, in Tokyo, that only sells white t-shirts.

50:14And there's a thousand different bodies of a white t-shirt. That's that idea that that guy had. I'm a silhouette guy, bro.

50:22Ronnie Fieg:Yes. Can you shout out the name of that store? I don't know the name. Someone was telling me about it. And it's like my closet. Like when I go and I start shopping, reference shopping, and I go vintage shopping. And I also, I want to understand the market also for, and you have to, to know where you sit, the context of where you sit and what we do. If you look at Andkin, which is our more elevated price point, more expensive fabrics, we have like five different fits of t-shirts. I got to look into this. I don't know about this. Yeah, so you could really like geek out and your favorite, you could go to the store and that's what I would recommend is going to the store and trying on all these different fits and their different weights too.

51:09I'm wearing one of them today under this jacket. And I obsess over that. And those are the things, and people are going to watch and probably think themselves,

51:19Ronnie Fieg:a t-shirt's a fucking t-shirt. I'll go to fucking Uniqlo. You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm with you on that, man. I'm searching right now for a good wide semi-crop right now. There you go. I can't really find it. Liv, can you please send him the LSD? Yeah, we got to talk about that. Send him the white Pima cotton LXT. Is that from Peru? The Pima Peru? Yeah, you're going to like that. Nice. You're going to like that. We're going to pop them up and give them a shout. Yeah, there you go. All I care about is the silhouette and just make sure the wash is good after the fact. Yeah. Yeah, and that's why I travel to Japan a lot.

51:53And that's... Please give them game on Japan because I just went to Tokyo for the first time.

51:58Ronnie Fieg:Holy fuck. What was I doing with my whole existence? I'm looking at buying a space there now. like buying an apartment there. That's a tough but rational negotiation with your wife. My wife - And by the way, that's exactly what it is. My wife, she loved it. She got sick. Actually, we're going to go back soon. Yeah, just there's a couple blocks there. I don't know the names of the blocks. Sure. We spent so much time in there. Yeah. It is incredible. It's my happy place. You know, Junya has gotten to show me, you know, Junya is my best friend. he's the director of the business out there in Japan.

52:35I know him for 17, 18 years now. And I've gotten, you know, I'm lucky enough to have a friend who really takes care of me when I go there and shows me things that I've never seen before and sets up my itinerary. And, you know, I get to see it through his eyes, which is, I think, so important when you go there is to have the right person to, you know, to show you around. But it really, it taught me, it made me such a more purposeful collector. And there's so many things that I collect that I don't talk about or show people because I do it for myself. And it really was a couple. This episode is brought to you by PayPal.

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54:02Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. You're not a golf guy. No, no, no, no. Are you a watch guy? No, I am a watch guy. I'm obviously, and people have seen my collection, my car collection with the BMWs that I've gotten very obsessive over. But I also, I'm one of the biggest footwear collectors in the world, you know? And that started at a very young age, since 95. But I do it for me. You know, I'm still buying, on average, probably six to eight pairs of shoes on eBay a week.

54:46and it's product from like the early 2000s DS. What's the latest shoe that you bought that you're excited about? I just bought a pair, two pairs of Kroc Hiroshi HTMs, Air Force Ones. There's a white pair and a brown pair that I bought. I had multiple people looking for them. So I actually might buy another set now. I already own a set. So I bought a second set. And these are things that I need to have because it represents a time that I think helped build a category or, you know, a culture. The time that helped literally build a culture. And I don't buy it for value and I don't buy it to ever think I'm going to sell it.

55:33It's a weird thing because I don't buy it to wear them because a lot of these products you can't even wear anymore. It's a strange, it's a strange hobby that I have, that I have to just, You have like a museum set up though? Is it aesthetically, is it beautiful? No, I have, no, it's, it's, it's a, it's a couple of storage units.

55:49Ronnie Fieg:Um. That's Ronnie's weakness. He's hoarding the shoes in the storage units. Yeah. Those storage units will get you too. Incrementally bump that price up. Yes, they did. And then I had the temperature control it and all that. But like, honestly, it's what makes me who I am, I would say. You know, and I'm really a product of that environment back then. And I'm trying to carry that torch forward. You know, I'm trying to do what I can. And I have a couple of projects lined up that I think will speak to that era more than anything. in the past decade to really shine through because things have gotten a little muddy in the category.

56:30And by category, you mean footwear? Yeah, I would say like for special footwear, I think a lot of people are buying products for the wrong reasons. And I want to bring substance back to product in a way where, you know, people start. And there are elements of that. I can't speak to it now, but there are ways that we are, we're spending a lot of time thinking about how to create community of like-minded individuals to buy products for the right reasons and care about products for the right reasons. And I just want, I want people to get back to that mindset where they're buying it for themselves and not for anything else.

57:09I want to round out the product side with just a very simple question on both the footwear side and then let's just call it the garment side. Let's just say there's a guy out there that wants to get your attention. He's doing$3 million a year. Maybe it's footwear. Maybe it's apparel. He shows you the shoe. What are the first three things you look at? What are you evaluating on the shoe side and the garment side? Well, I know you're meticulous and psycho on the details. I am. It depends on the brand for what I look for, right? Because I think different brands serve different purposes of the end result and the emotion that you're supposed to have towards product.

57:41how true to the DNA, like how, how true are they to the DNA of the brand? Like, did you try to make one brand appear as another brand? Did you try to over like, embed your DNA with their DNA? Yeah. Or, or, or like, you know, overshadow, did you try to overshadow their, the DNA of what makes that brand special or what made you like that brand in the first place? Right. So some people over design. And that becomes an issue where it might look familiar, but you're not getting enough of the brand in return. And I think that with the amount of brands that I've been able to work with, my love for those brands need to be evident in the product that I build.

58:31Right. So like, how much of it does it have to be kind of embedded in the product versus in the storytelling and content and go to market around it? I think it's both. You know, I think today and things have changed, you know, like times have changed, but what I would say, I think in today's world, 50 % of the reason people buy anything is the product. And then the other 50 % is, is the storytelling and the content around the product. You know, I walked into a store, I would say I buy product 100 % of the time for 100 % of the product. Anything else is complimentary and is a cherry on top. But I walked into a store.

59:12I just came back from Portland last week and I walked into a store called Maccus, which is a great store out there. It's been there a long time. Yeah, it's been there. It's been there a long time and they're great. I thought that their shop was a breath of fresh air for me because I didn't know 80 % of the brands that were in there and I still spent a lot of money and bought a lot of product for myself because I'm still that guy like I don't need to know the brand I need the product to be incredible so I tried on a bunch of stuff and I loved a bunch of stuff and it's still this many years later I still get that excited you know about product that I'm seeing for the first time which was refreshing is that what it's all about is that like if you again I was mind blown when we're we're gonna guys we're gonna get into the collaborations and the licenses shortly when i was talking to austin i thought you had this like crazy system in place and how you kind of go to market and he said a lot of it is kind of feel and kind of what we talked about earlier who said who said that austin said a lot of it was was feel and based my austin yeah based on your taste and your judgment which you obviously talked about earlier in the conversation so i guess what is your goal when someone buys a product from you if you had to kind of whittle it down to Is it a feeling?

1:00:23Is it an emotion? Someone buys a product from you, they open the box. What is a perfect situation for you? Well, it's meant to do a few different things. The first thing it's meant to do is be special. Meaning like everything that we do, I want to do in a limited number so that when that person that buys the product either goes to work or goes to school, the person next to them most likely is not wearing that same product right so that's one thing is scarcity will always be a form of luxury and i think that a lot of these luxury brands

1:01:01Ronnie Fieg:regardless of msrp too scarcity nothing nothing to do with price yeah part of luxury is knowing that you're one of few people that have a product that's part of luxury scarcity has always been that. I mean, look at watches and cars and that's, I'm not, I'm not that this is not new. What I'm saying isn't new, but I think that a lot of these luxury brands have gotten carried away and opened too many spaces in too many cities where they've lost the scarcity model, where a lot of the people that were coming to some of these fashion house stores were feeling, they felt really special walking in because it wasn't everywhere.

1:01:37So I think a portion of why people were buying into those products and feeling special was the scarcity model within these luxury brands. So I think there's a new form of luxury now where it's not based on the, on the price point. It's based on the emotion, you know? So, and that emotion isn't one emotion, it's multiple. So first is the purpose of walking into the space. Then it's the product that you're gravitating towards, then it's buying the product and what you feel afterwards, right? If you can get great use out of the product, you know what a lot of people tell me, a lot of the fans of the brands are like, when I wear a Kith product, so many people ask me about the product.

1:02:21And these are the products, a lot of these products are the ones that are not branded or have small branding where they're being asked about the product for the look and feel of the product. not that's the best that's the warmest compliment for you yeah and I and I and I love that and and by the way it happens and I'm I'm now in the stage of my life where I'm not wearing a lot of logo driven product so you know the and kin portion of the line is where I am currently in my life where the product and kin is not branded it's all unbranded so my point in saying that is you need to feel like the product is different in more ways than one.

1:03:01You don't have anything in your closet that looks and feels like it. It's worth to you more than the money that you spent. So that was the idea that I mentioned before is like, you want to make product that goes above and beyond for value. Value is a word that's been destroyed by down market retailers, but value is so important, right? It's like getting more than what you pay for is like, I feel like a lost mindset when really it's like, you'll figure it out. Some people figure it out later. Like you got like 30 wares out of a piece and then you're like, oh shit. And you're like, wow, this cost me like a dollar per wear.

1:03:40Oh shit. It's like, you know, that, that was actually like, that was more than worth what I paid for it. And you'll figure it out later. Right. But I'm trying to give people that mindset before they purchase the product. I want people to think about that before they purchase something. You know, and not only my product, I want to get people in that mindset for anything they buy. Getting more than what you pay for is huge. Like, even for me, as a consumer of product today, that's what I look for, no matter what I'm buying. I want to know that I'm going to get more than what I pay for the product.

1:04:15Like, I'm going to get more than the money that I pay for it. You're going to feel that and probably know in the back of your head what the cogs are. And you're going to be like, did these motherfuckers jack me up?

1:04:22Ronnie Fieg:Yeah. Like 200 % mark. I'm on this shit. But you know what? It, you know, it depends on your value to that product. For example, like the products that I'm buying on eBay right now from the early 2000s. Although those are, that's different. Oh my, oh my God. It's like, you know, I can't think about what it costs to make that product. So for some people, that's the scarcity. Exactly. Exactly. So for some people, it depends on what it's worth to them, how much they're going to wear it, what they're going to wear it with, what it's going to make them feel. And I try to be connected to that. I try to be as connected as possible to that, to make people feel great about what they're purchasing.

1:04:59And by the way, if you don't want to purchase it, that's okay. It's like the space is there. Ronnie's is there. Sedell's is there. Treats is there. You don't have to buy an item. You could spend$7,$9 on an ice cream or 20 bucks on a sandwich at Ronnie's and feel like you're also part of the world. Like, I don't need people to feel like they need to buy anything.

1:05:25Ronnie Fieg:It's lethal that you have so many vehicles. And guys, this is called consumer surplus. It's an economic term. We talk about it a lot in the Peter Rahal episode from David Protein. I completely agree. He's obviously looking at it on like the protein bar side. I think something also which makes this, again, giving you kind of more leverage and ability to think how you think. You know, you talked about OPEX before is you don't spend on fucking marketing. So your margin profile can be significantly lower and you're good. We don't spend—hold on, hold on. No, you don't spend on like meta. We don't spend on paid marketing.

1:05:55Let's just talk about that right now.

1:05:57Ronnie Fieg:Yeah. Why? Because we don't have to. Because we don't have to. You know, like— You could double up. That top line revenue could double up with just a little bit of matter, bro. You know what? Maybe. But I'm not interested in doubling up. I'm interested in people organically connecting to the brand, creating their own emotion to the brand, and not having an emotion created for them. When you're pitched your algorithm with paid ads, and I'm not saying it's never going to happen. When there is a form that I feel is authentic and organic, then I will, I'll, you know, I'll, I'll do some research on it and I'll, I'll see if I feel like it's right for me.

1:06:39But at the time, right. You know, at this time, at this current moment, I think that people are curious enough as to what we're doing, that they want to know what we're doing. At the minute, the curiosity goes away, we're going to be in, we're going to be in a shitload of trouble, you know, and a lot of brands are lacking that curiosity from the consumer. You could argue that that's kind of the first step towards the grave. It's like when you go into wholesale, like when you're in Bloomies or Nordstrom's and you go down to Zoomies or PacSun, you're fucked. When you're in Zoomies or PacSun, you go to Walmart and Target, you're fucked.

1:07:11Ronnie Fieg:Yeah. Then you go into Offpress, you're fucked. Well, you know, listen. You have so many levers to pull that you have not pulled any of these levers. So, you know, I wouldn't label it as fucked because some— you're closer to an ABG leverage buyout. A hundred percent. No, no. Listen, listen. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Every brand serves a purpose. You know, every founder or buyer of a brand, even if it's not the original founder that's running the company, they all will have their own path as to what they're trying to achieve. Some are more business oriented and have to hit a number. And some are doing it for the right reasons, which I consider to be passion, you know, around creation of product.

1:07:59I'm really passionate about what I do. I love what I do. So my purpose is different from it needing to be about dollars and cents. And this is what people need to also understand listening to this. If I wanted to spend a fourth of what I spend on my doors, on my stores, I can. And the product will continue to sell, I believe, at the same rate. we're spending more than some luxury houses on our spaces, you know? And that's between$1 ,000 to like$1 ,300 a foot on the space that we build. And this is not from the ground up. This is when you're given a vanilla box, we call it, right? That decision has puzzled my CFO, right?

1:08:49And continues to do that, but is so embedded in what I try to do, I'm trying to give people a space where they could come in and be inspired. And I'm trying to build a space around great product where it's complementary to the product I'm trying to build. I'm also trying to give myself room to grow into an aesthetic with product that I build. So I'm trying for like the spaces to have no ceiling in terms of aesthetic and feel so that the product can continue to evolve

1:09:23Ronnie Fieg:without feeling like it's out of place. I do feel like over the years, it's gotten more minimalist in nature. Yeah. Keeping it more open to adjust. It is, but it's always going to be beautiful. And that's the key, right? Like the key for me is to build spaces where people come in and it feels like you're walking into a special space. You know, it took, you know what? It took me a while. It took me a while to get used to walking into my Soho space after I rebuilt it, you know? And, you know, people, I just posted something for the 15 year retrospect on photos throughout the years. This is like the latest post I put up with the carousel.

1:10:00And I see people's like reaction to that. They're so emotionally invested into the spaces throughout the years.

1:10:06Ronnie Fieg:It's incredible because they grew up with the spaces, right? Like I think about the wood. I think about the Air Force Ones hanging. I think about the white crystal. I think about all that. Yeah. Yeah. And that has evolved, you know, that's no longer part of our aesthetic, but it's, but but it's embedded in your mind because you associated your experience in the shop, you know, with the product that you purchased. It's like, it goes hand in hand. And even if I cannot say that about many brands to be completely frank with you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's, that's a, that's a big part of it.

1:10:35But as we expand regionally, that core purpose stays intact of what the spaces need to achieve. You got to also tell your CFO. I mean, obviously you guys are spending on your website, but your stores are basically like your website. Yeah. It's like you're investing in your website, which there's a big budget for that. So I understand what you're doing there. Yeah, you see, but you're trying to create a formula for the reasoning. Formulaic in nature. I know for the reasoning behind some of these decisions that I'm making, where for me, it has nothing to do with the formula. You know, it has nothing to do with that.

1:11:09It has to do with what is the greatest space that we can build today? How far can we take this thing? people often will try to put you in a box to say this is what you should be because that's what they've seen in the past. So you do anything beyond the four walls they try to box you into, if you do anything beyond that, it's confusing to them because they don't understand the purpose until they experience it. And so it's, you know, it's very interesting to understand what dictates the journey and the path. The journey needs to be dictated by purpose, by being purposeful and thoughtful, you know, and that is ultimately how I want to think about the future.

1:11:59Is every move and decision that I make needs to, like you said before, I'm in the 15-year mindset today because we have a book coming out in September. but I really am on the 18 to 20 year mindset. Like I need to think about what we grow into. You know, you're thinking about that now. And especially the day after this comes out, it's onto. And it's not a, it's not a formula. It is a feeling. And Austin, you know, he's been around me for so many years. He understands when it's time to pivot and change direction, it's because the brand is forcing us to do so. Not because we're thinking like, I'm thinking, I'm not thinking for myself.

1:12:33I'm thinking for the brand. At this point, the brand has a brain because it's been consistent for 15 years. I am, and when you are a creative director, it's one thing, but when you've also, when you're the founder slash creative director, I am now thinking for the brand, I need to do the brand justice with the decisions that I make, you know? So it's not formulaic, it's building blocks. It's like, when I try to push everything forward, you know, we need to be militant in decision-making to make sure that the brand is,

1:13:04Ronnie Fieg:we're maximizing the potential, but by doing it tastefully. And is doing that, those Monday programs, those weekly drops, does that kind of force you to always have that exercise and thinking through how do we avoid that complacency? Monday, the Monday program, when you, I don't know how many years it's been now. It has to have been now like at least eight years of releasing product. Insane. You know, 52 times a year. and the purpose of a Monday program sometimes is the appetizer, which I like. And it's continuously, the purpose of that has continuously changed because that's what Monday program was built for.

1:13:45It was a malleable idea of like, hey, we have this Yankee collection dropping the end of the week. On the Monday, let's give them the accessory portion or the lifestyle portion of that, right? And get them ready for, And it stands for then part of the rollout, but also part of, you know, the release strategy. That's the one layer of predictability is that, is at least that your audience can expect that every Monday they could wake up on something new and fresh from Kithcacombe. Yeah, and I think that that's important. And sometimes it could be two hats and sometimes it could be one t-shirt and sometimes it could be an entire collection of product.

1:14:21so we look at the calendar and study the calendar very carefully to think about bandwidth and think about the journey that people are taking throughout the year and following us with the amount of content that we're throwing at them but ultimately like I want to I want to do everything I can not everything I should so it's like I have to I have to then position myself and the brand to be able to do that in a way where people can digest it in the best way possible. So it's a Rubik's cube, you know, and the calendar is really a Rubik's cube because product is always shipped late from brands. Things have to move around.

1:15:02I have to sometimes sell product before I receive it in my warehouse, knowing that I'm getting it next week. I'll sell it and then it'll take 14 days to ship it out or get to a consumer. And we have to sometimes stay on calendar because one thing can affect, it's a domino effect. You know, it could affect the rest of the year if I change things around. So we try to be methodical, like on a week to week basis of what's going to happen for a full year. Like I'm on next year's calendar and next year's planned out by the week. Right. So it then puts the content team in place to be making great decisions, to be creative and have enough time to do what they need to do.

1:15:41And then it has like the editing team on a schedule and on my calendar to be able to put this stuff up on the site. It has my experiential team in place to be able to throw these amazing events. Like we have, we have an event coming up very soon. Like by the time this comes out, it'll be like within the next two weeks. Drop it, drop it. I can't, I can't, but people aren't ready and people think I'm one thing or 10 things, but this will add to whatever they think like and and and that's what i mean by like having so many different touch points for be able to be able to bring something to fruition it's like maybe 80 people touch it internally a lot of vessels you have i mean it's cars hospitality kids clothes high end yeah we haven't talked about ivy which is great the way ronnie has built Kith is the blueprint for how you build an influential brand today.

1:16:44We put together a free PDF on Ronnie's playbook, why he hates paid marketing, why storytelling is king, and the reason he spends more in his stores than most luxury brands do today. Link down below in the description. Enjoy the rest of the episode. I want to double click on the collabs just because I think among other things, like you're very well known, people have always tried to kind of duplicate your playbook there. Why don't you just put us on some game? You could pick any collab and just kind of walk us through what is that process? I know we talked about your individual taste, but is it also in conjunction?

1:17:15Maybe it's, you know, Hasbro has its 50th anniversary coming. Like, what is the holistic view on how Ronnie's brain thinks? I'll walk you through one example, which is BMW that just happened in Pebble Beach. So when we first started with BMW, the idea was when I sat down with Toby, who flew in from Germany from BMW and asked me, why do you love the brand? And I'm like, it was a poster on my wall you know like my grandfather had an m3 an e30 and i fell in love with it and it then became this aspirational item that i had to have you know the car and i had and then you know funny enough later in life i was able to get a 330 you know this is when i worked for david the later years working for david i was able to lease a 330 but build it you know, as a white with a red interior.

1:18:08And I love the car, obviously. But the idea was, hey, like, I love the E30 M3. Can we do something with the E30 M3? He's like, well, you know, we have an M4 coming soon. And in the lineage of what the M3 meant, it obviously is the future, you know, body style of the M3 because the M3, the two door became the M4 and then the M3 became the four-door. So the idea was this past and present story. And I give you that example because I always try to think in those terms of the educational part of the project, which is teaching people why the E30M3 was so important.

1:18:53Ronnie Fieg:We know it's a cultural icon. But to you as well, too. The personal story, obviously, I think brings it to a whole other level. And, and that's, that's a portion of it, but that's a smaller portion of it. The, the, the cultural relevance of the E30 M3, where did it come from? Well, the E30 M3, you know, won a bunch of races and was such an important, such an important car in the portfolio, like what it meant to put a race car on the street and make it a street car. Right. And, and then what it did for the brand and what it did for M. So when I went to Germany and I got to see, you know, the history of BMW and the lineage of the specific car, the three series, I knew that that story had to be told.

1:19:38So Johnny Chocotto, which was the race car driver that used to drive the E30 M3 and won a bunch of trophies with it. I put him on the racetrack with his son and I had them both drive the E30 M3 and the M4 on the same track. And it was to tell this like past and present story. So the apparel and the lifestyle product that we then sell is an extension of people who either can't afford to buy the car or want to buy the car plus that. But it's letting people into the culture of what BMW stands for. And I'm heavily invested into the brand because I learned so much about it. If anyone was in my shoes in Germany and got to see what I see, they'd be the biggest fans of the brand too.

1:20:26Right? So it's my responsibility. I feel like it's my responsibility doing what I do to transfer over the knowledge and the feeling that I have when I do certain things. So my goal is to be able to transfer that. Why do I care so much about that? I don't fucking know. like I don't know why I want to transfer that emotion but I've always since a kid wanted to put you know like when you're when when we were younger and we'd hear like we'd buy a mixtape we'd hear a song like we'd buy a clue tape and I'd hear like a foxy brown freestyle that I loved over a Jamaican beat and for some reason I had to like make everyone listen to that song and be like, yo, you got to hear this shit.

1:21:14This shit's crazy. And like, why do we want to put people on to those things? Well, whether it's a track on a mixtape or now on a larger stage where I could like teach people about the history of a BMW automobile. It's like, to me, it's the same kind of transfer of emotion. So I want to, I want as many people as possible to explore those feelings and to know what I know. so that that's that that that now is a big part of the purpose of what I do I'm also 44 and like at this point or this stage of my career like this is a legacy mode of like what I could do to transfer emotion you know and I do think that kith spaces and for people that are spending their weekends or time coming to the kith store like I do think that I'm helping people making people happy.

1:22:07If you see people eating Kith Treats, every single person will smile after a bite. And that was the goal with Kith Treats, right? Standing outside of Brooklyn with the first window, I was just like, the store, it was for the opening of the Brooklyn store, but I was outside just curious about what people's reaction would be to tasting this cereal infused ice cream, which was like the invention of that. That didn't exist before I did what I did. So like watching people's reaction and seeing them smile, it made my, I didn't care what happened inside the space I spent so much time building. That was like such an important moment for me.

1:22:41That is the KPI, is the feeling. That's right.

1:22:44Ronnie Fieg:Yeah. Wow. It's the feeling. That's a bar. Save that one. I mean, that's what it is. That's great. That's exactly what it is. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen? Snacks? A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

1:23:26It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. So you've done so many of these collabs. And again, kind of going back to what you said earlier is we just see the end product. Yeah. No one knows. I mean, I've done tons of licensing deals as well, too.

1:24:01I'd love for you to just share the red flags the green flags what do you look for again putting aside the this is the taste of Ronnie Feig but then everything else yeah I mean there's so

1:24:16Ronnie Fieg:and you'll see the final edit of this don't worry about it you'll see the final edit of this no no no leave out anything that's okay listen I don't want you to cut anything out yeah you know sometimes I have this like this feeling in the middle of meetings where I'll stop and I'll be like fuck I wish everyone was here for this shit You know, like I'll be in a meeting with a brand that first said no to something. And then, you know, I'll sit down and I'll give you a good example of this. It was like, are they still saying no? Anybody? I mean, when I say that, I don't mean they're saying no to working together.

1:24:52Ronnie Fieg:No to a concept within the concept. No to an idea that makes them uncomfortable. Yeah. That happens a lot. You should tell them the Kith Treats ice cream was probably a bad idea to outsiders. Right. And I'll tell you how the Kith Treats came about after this. It's pretty funny. But like how that came to be because originally it was supposed to be a white chocolate bread window. And I'll give you the story around that. So the reason why I say that is because it's important for people to know that some of the product and concepts behind product took three, four rounds of like having to convince a brand to allow me to do certain things, you know, like putting our logo in the BMW Rondel.

1:25:41That was an automatic no. And then no, no, no. Because they've never done that before. Three more times after that. Yeah. No, no. And that's, you know, IP integration is a big part of the conversation for me. It's like, how do we do something that's going to differentiate what you are what you've already done how are we gonna because a big part of the kith dna is to disrupt it's just become a big part of what we do you know so people have to see creativity but also it needs to move the needle right and i think that when we met with coca-cola and we wanted to have kith in the coke font on a glass contour bottle that was a fuck no right in so many Don't go with them.

1:26:23They're tough. In so many words. It was a no. Like, of course not. You can't do that. But then through conversation and through understanding the purpose of what I'm trying to do, brands will align because they understand the mutual benefit of a brand like ours and myself uplifting the DNA of the brand itself. Like not just trying to create something new. it also needs to speak to why you know coca-cola is such a great brand it's a great american brand so i have this like coca-cola book that i bought in japan and going back to japan they're so good at upspecking what you would think is a dollar can of coke into a lifestyle like the way that Japanese, the Japanese consumer looks at American brands in Japan is very different from here.

1:27:19They, they, they're able to build products around storytelling in ways that Americans couldn't even do it for themselves. So I, I saw that, like, if you go to Japan, if you went to Japan 15 years ago and you bought a champion sweatshirt, it's like the Japanese champion sweatshirts were like so much better and better made better fit just like those some of those retailers were taking product and spinning it and recreating it in a way that really made you respect the brand so much more that's what I wanted to do for coke so the bottle was one conversation but what I was going to do within the context of the collection is like I want to

1:28:04Ronnie Fieg:make product for Coca-Cola that people have never seen, people have never felt. Are you communicating to them how you're communicating to me right now? Yeah, of course. You're saying these exact things. No, of course. I mean, I'm in every conversation that then builds the blueprint for what we do in the future. And that's why it's such longstanding relationships that we have is because they need to hear the intent from me because I'm creatively directing where we go. it's like they need to understand what my end goal is in working together. So in collaborations, like being purposeful and trying to achieve something that hasn't been achieved in the past will be, again, a building block for that brand.

1:28:48So if I can, there was a time, and I truly believe this, and right now it'll be hard for people to understand what I'm saying because we're not in a time today when we released the kind of product we did for a brand like Coca-Cola. But there was a time where if you asked my consumer, what is the first thing you think about when I say Coca-Cola? They may not say a can or a bottle at my deli or at a restaurant. They may say a different product. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine I ask you, what's the first thing you think about when you think about Coca-Cola and you say the rugby that I bought.

1:29:30What that does for a brand is priceless because then you expand the purpose of what you stand for. It's like, and Coca-Cola is not just a beverage to me. There's so much equity in that IP where it could stand for so much more. The color, the feel. If you get this book of the history of Coca-Cola and you see like in the 70s, what Coca-Cola meant to the US, Like if you have like an ice cold Coke with a fucking burger or a slice of pizza, you know what that does.

1:29:59Ronnie Fieg:We just hit that. We just said that felt good. You know, like a year, you know, you know what that does. So like, you know, so transferring that over to what that would mean on product outside of a beverage is to me the most fun I can have is like then transferring it over to product. Like BMW is the same thing. if I ask you what's the first thing you think about BMW like if you just bought that orange leather jacket like and you don't own a BMW car that may be the first thing you think about you know like this goes back to all those kind of ways to get them into the world it's a net new yeah but getting getting someone into the Coca-Cola world isn't I don't need to do that they already gotten them back into it to be completely frank maybe but that's not that's not even the purpose the purpose is to expand how they feel about it yeah right that was the purpose in the conversation that I had.

1:30:49It's like, hey, like we can, I really think of Coca-Cola as a lifestyle brand. I don't think about it as a beverage. And that was the spark. That was like, hey, the bottle is just part of the overall story. It's the context. It has to be the base of the story because that's why people have fallen in love with the brand. But I'm then going to give you a world around it. And that's an example. I know you asked me about collaboration. I just wanted to give you one example around how we work and what we think about when we work with a partner is like, I'm trying to tell the history of why I feel connected to the brand.

1:31:27Ronnie Fieg:That is the purpose of why we do what we do. What about these like trips that you're doing with a select group of people that you like known from childhood? Is that a big part of this? Because for me, that has always just, and it's subtle. It just further cements the story that you're talking about. And it's just a net new vehicle that you see the story through that lens. I think that has been one of the most powerful things that you've done. Is that in those conversations? Do they want that? Do you ask for that? Two things about that. Number one, I am, and if you ask my friends, like any of my friends, they'll tell you that I'm like the glue or not even the glue, but I'm the connector.

1:32:05So like all of my friends know each other through me. And then the relationships that have been built in silos, like have been because they met on some of these trips or because I've put them together. And I've been fortunate enough to be part of so many friendships, but more fortunate enough to create other friendships. And I love being that person that is able to connect like-minded individuals that can become even better friends than I am with that individual. so KIF has been a platform for me where I can bring all my friends together and enjoy my life and friendships because I don't get to do that outside of work because I don't have time

1:32:57Ronnie Fieg:so the brand has been a platform where I could do that and I and by chance and that is that is the meetup with the friends it's like everyone's so busy that is the meetup that's exactly right and all of us are busy and ironically by coincidence all of us have become successful in our own right like with doing what we do you know so like if you go back in the history of some of our first trips like the amount of growth that all of us have had individually and collectively and if i go down the list one individual after the other this is from day one there haven't been new names on that list for a long time, you know?

1:33:35So they become influential. So seeing, like, imagine, like, what we do when we take over a mountain in Hokkaido and we're 25 individuals and all of us are wearing the same ski kit and we take over the village. Like, we're, like, walking around, like, skiing down the mountain, all wearing the same kit. the influence that that has on people that are there is it's insane you know and then the organic content nobody's told that they have to post anything there's no hashtag that shit's corny there's no there's none of that you know like it's organic social that comes out of that because people love people first of all if i take you to the spaces you're gonna love it if i take you to amangiri for and we take over the whole hotel and i put you in the product and we're hiking you know you're gonna post that because that's what human behavior is now you love doing what you're doing and you think some shit's cool you're gonna post it because that's what life is today so like that came organically no one i haven't asked anybody to post anything ever like literally ever that backed into a good situation that makes a lot of sense it's just uh you know one time a quarter two times a year you could just put a date on the calendar and everyone could link up And that's exactly what we're doing.

1:34:58And this one thing I'm speaking about that's happening very soon will be the fucking pinnacle of that. We had to show up for the 15 years. So that's going to be the biggest, the biggest, I think it's going to be the biggest moment. It's definitely the biggest moment in my career. Yeah. So I think it's going to be a big moment in fashion. You know, and I'm really, I'm really hyped about that because it takes, it took so much to be able to get to the point where we can impact the culture in that way. So I'm just, I'm excited for the position that we're in also to be able to do things the way that we're doing them is it's not taken for granted.

1:35:40Like I'm very appreciative of the fact that I'm able to do that, you know, and the team that I have and everybody around me, that's like supporting me and able to bring it to fruition is key.

1:35:52Ronnie Fieg:When can we look out for that? it's it's the first week first and second week of october a collaboration you're proudest of giorgio armani why because giorgio was always the pinnacle for me just the top of the pyramid for what he was able to build the lifestyle and what he stood for dressing some of the most important characters in some of the most amazing films, being able to build a book for him when I met with him and having that conversation with him and then working on a few other projects with him before he passed. To me, that's the ultimate. That was, I think, I think it's the most impactful and most important project of my career.

1:36:44I would say from the outside, looking into, it probably was the biggest jump in maturation from like an aesthetic perspective as well too, as far as the garment and product. Like I never looked at you under that lens. Yeah. That was for me, that was like when I crossed the chasm to like I would buy stuff from him in that vehicle. And you're not the first person to say that and I know that too. I know that that was the beginning of something new. Yeah. For again. I think Bergdorf was another one too when you went in there. I was like, okay, he's going into a whole other universe right now. Yeah, and that's the thing is like I want to be able to work on the most aspirational shit to me personally, you know, and live through that with the brand.

1:37:30right and and i think i think again like it's gonna confuse certain people but that's what it's meant to do but it's gonna really affect like a different group of people that get into that crepe suit the artist suit that i wear so often i wear it like i wear any kit like such a comfortable suit a double-breasted shawl like it's perfect i've never gone that route. I might need to hit that. Yeah. I mean, listen, it's, and it made me, and again, like, it's the same thing. Like when there was mutual interest, and by the way, there was mutual interest and a conversation that started three or four years before we put out that product.

1:38:14And it took that long for me to then meet with, you know, Mr. A. And it took a ton of education for me to think about what I was going to do, you know and create the archetype of every guy that I thought Giorgio affected in his in in that brands and his lifespan like for people that got into suits and the type of guy that got into suits throughout the years I wanted to celebrate that I wanted to celebrate that for him and with him right so in that conversation that I had with him like that was a very interesting and and by the way, like not just because there's interest in working together, it doesn't mean that we're going to sit down and talk and he's going to like the idea or agree with the idea.

1:39:01And at first he didn't really agree and love it until I went through the book and explained the purpose that it served and what I was trying to do by paying respects, you know, like paying respect to Giorgio through his history and his, you know, because he turned 90 and the brand I think turned, I don't remember the year. You're going to have to check that. But I think it was 50. And I think that people seeing it, I think for the first time, like seeing the history and understanding what it was through my lens allowed people to then dive deeper. and I think that that's the purpose that it served.

1:39:51I don't think there was an awareness in like my cohort, in my pocket. Like I didn't know much about George. I obviously know the logo. Yeah, of course. But I didn't know much past that. I was thinking cologne. Like I like, yeah. Right, and the finest, I believe George Armani is the finest garments in the world, literally. And that's the purpose of why I wanted to work together. Love that. Guys, we're going to finish up with some of those last collaborations. I just want to round it out with some of this outside stuff, outside of the core business. outside of marrying your wife and having your kid.

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1:41:34Honestly, everything that will happen after that moment is just a cherry on top. everything that will happen. So you're good for life with the one chip. I'm good for life with the one chip. I'm good for life with the one chip. Three spaces back. So you're the creative director. Let's talk about that. What does that role actually look like? And I think that you were the beginning of this kind of evolution, Ruiji, Arsham, where they're getting kind of these outside creatives to adjust the visual identity and more. It's a beautiful thing. You know, like getting people who are emotionally invested and to have a point of view we've worked now like you know I think this is this year will mark the eighth collection so I've been working with the Knicks since way before they got good let alone great right and to me it's like New York City what New York what the Knicks represent for the city is everything that I feel the city is about and everything the city feels like to me is like represented by the Knicks you know and growing up you know with the 90s team Mason Starks Gritty Mason Starks Ewing Oakley I mean it was that time, again, like everything you love when you're a kid you're going to love for the rest of your life.

1:43:08I will love the Knicks for the rest of my life. Like, no matter what, you know? Unconditional love. And we love them through their struggles. I'm really happy that they're in a position that they're in now where they're getting the respect that they deserve. But more importantly, Jalen Brunson is the best Knick of all time in my opinion. And we have such an incredible leader on that team. But also, the personalities of the other players that I got to know, Cat and Hart, like, and Deuce and Alvarado. Like, yo, these guys are great guys, man. Alvarado is the Knicks. Literally. I think some people would think that's outlandish.

1:43:46I saw it. You agree? Yeah. He's like just that gritty. Dude, he's so us. He's like from the city. Like, he represents, it puts the heart on his, like, he's very New York. And I love that about the Knicks. Like, I love that grittiness and that hustle from these players. But more importantly, like, I know these guys off the court, and they're great guys. Like, I just spent a good amount of time with Josh Hart out east. I've hung with him a bunch. He's such a good— Matt, great dude. Matt Hillman. Yo, great people, man. And that, to me, is more important than anything else. And also, you know, I think Jim Dolan is a great owner.

1:44:25I do. We don't clip that one. I think he's a great owner Why? Because he made the right decisions Of putting the best in charge You know, he made the right decisions for the team You know, like Also, like I feel like he Loves this team so much, man Like, and I know because I'm there He's there at the games Like Invested in it You know, he's not just a typical You know, some of these team owners They don't even watch the games the way that they should be, like, with the interest of the win, like, in the way that I see him. So it hurt when they were losing. It hurt him.

1:45:04Ronnie Fieg:It definitely hurt him. Definitely hurt him. You don't see that. You just saw trash for so long. And obviously, Wes and the new GM, like, all of that coming in. I know, but, dude, it's like, dude, it's when you— This is New York City, man. Like, the amount of publicity, you know, good or bad, that you're going to get in that position, it's nobody can fucking deal with that you know like we won't i'm not gonna get into any specifics but i will say this i think the organization is a winning organization it's it stands for you know the best of new york city and they have the people in charge right now between west and leon that i think is the best league wide i think they're the best tandem league wide there's no one better and what we put old moves they made what we put together to win a chip do you know how how crazy that was for like us to be in that position after a few just a few years before that the craziest thing about it is it was so close that not only not working but everyone being like he's the fucking worst like i'm so happy what happened with cat because cat was literally so close to it going the other way and now for me i think cat's a whole famer now I think he is right now if you actually look at his numbers yeah he's a champion now and he was a huge part of the championship I think so too but also unlocking him the way that we did 100 % you know like but you know what basketball aside because you know it's when you get to know these guys basketball becomes secondary to these guys they're like good people you know and and that's that's what I think makes a big difference so good on them I really hope that this season is going to be just as good as last year's, if not better.

1:46:47We have an incredible collection coming this year as we do every year. But this year we're celebrating, I could tell you that we're celebrating Walcott Frazier this year. Love that. And some of the imagery that you see, like there's going to be some really cool shit that we do there. And we got a couple of other really great moments lined up for the Knicks. So I'm very excited about that. And being in the role, you know, you asked me a question, like, what does that entail? and it's, you know, we, we, I meet with the team and we discuss the aesthetics and the digital content, what it looks like, what it feels like.

1:47:22And we discuss emotion and that's very important. Same lens as Kath. Yeah. We apply that.

1:47:27Ronnie Fieg:And that's what I, that's what I'm there to do, you know, is to apply the same, that same lens. Most surprising thing with working with the next, what do you say it was the chip I mean like it's not it was it was an expectation that I think people had from the beginning of the season but it's surprising in a way where you know you see this many people come out the way they did and this the whole the whole city getting behind it in the way that they did like it's crazy to see because I mentioned it if you go back to the roommates podcast I mentioned I thought that the Knicks were the most culturally relevant team in the world.

1:48:07And then that was way before they won the chip. And then you see what happened after they won the chip. And then you see why. When the Knicks are good, the city is great. The NBA is great. Oh, the NBA. That goes without saying. The NBA is more than great. But the city, what the city felt like during that run, it was insane. And I had, it was fucked up, but I had a procedure done on my leg. I had melanoma at the time that they were winning in the chip. And I had to have surgery on my leg. So I couldn't make it. I made it to, I think it was game, I made it to game three. And they lost that game.

1:48:46But I had to walk because fucking Trump came and they shut down 20 square blocks. And I wasn't supposed to walk on my leg. And then I ended up having to walk like three miles to get to my seat. And I was in so much fucking pain, but it didn't matter.

1:49:02Ronnie Fieg:Well worth it. But then I didn't go to game four because they told me that they're shutting down around the arena again. So I ended up watching it at Ivy. And my friend Dan went with his kids. And I remember at halftime, he was like, my kids are crying. They don't want to be here. I told them we can't leave. I was like, Dan, place a fucking bet. It's going to turn around. Trust me. And they ended up winning. That's the OG game? Yeah, that's the OG game. Game four. And I missed that game because of what I had, my procedure to my leg. And then I was supposed to go to San Antonio, but I couldn't go.

1:49:36So, like, I missed what I typically would have done. Like, I would have gone to the games, and I'll always remember that being a very shitty part of the run. And then when it comes to, like, watching the closeout game, like, I have to watch a closeout game by myself. Like, if I'm not at the game, like, I have to watch it solo. So, I watched it solo, and I was like, I watched it with my wife. but that was a crazy few days, man. It was just the best. That was the World Cup too. That was like a nice two, three-week bender.

1:50:05Ronnie Fieg:We were here shooting. You just felt it everywhere. Dude, no matter where you lived, I don't care if you, even if you're like European or Asian, like your algorithm was getting bombarded with Nick's shit everywhere. It was crazy. The memes were so good and just the people going outside going absolutely fucking ape shit. We'll pop a bunch of those up. The Gary shit, Vaynerchuk. We'll pop up that episode as well. him just going fucking nuts in the middle of nowhere in Poland at like fucking three o 'clock in the morning. Yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. Gary, Gary's a real fan, man. And I'm, I'm, I love Gary, but he's, he's a real one.

1:50:37You know, we've been to the games together and we've actually went to away games together and he's a fucking real one, man. Yes. He loves the Knicks. I want to just talk a little bit about the future and the book before we get into Quick Strike. Let's talk about Kith today, the future, the legacy. I'm gonna start with a crazy question. Would you ever sell Kith? I can't answer forever on anything to be honest so I'm not going to say something and then you know be in a situation where I have to do something I don't know but right now no

1:51:07Ronnie Fieg:as of right now no and that's just how you make decisions period is just it's never a hard yes or no everything is malleable nothing is a hard yes or no because circumstances change in life and I've learned that in so many other non-business related matters. So, you know, we take it, I like to think three to five years out and we take it one day at a time, but I've changed my mind on so many things so many times, you know, and right now I still have so much to give and I'm still able to be as creative as I ever have been. And I'm able to be, I think, a good leader and a good boss. And as long as I feel like that's the case, then I keep going.

1:51:49What does Kith cost you personally that people can't see? I know we talked a little bit about the journey. That's a great, that's a great question, man. Everything. It's cost me everything. I mean, this is, and this is, I think what the younger generation, like if there's anything that i could pass down to the younger generation it's devotion is like such an important word you know and what i've sacrificed the family time the weddings the birthdays the vacations the trips the you know the friend like i haven't been able to build like really true friendships you know where I'm taking time out to like and this is why I told you we do those trips because it's the only time I get to see my my friends and those are my real friends you know like yeah we're on group chats and you know I fuck around when I can and text and talk or whatever but like it's it's very rare and I just I don't have the time to get on a call and I check up on my friends.

1:52:58I call my friends like no agenda randomly just to see how they're doing. And that's what friendships are. No agenda is a friendship. That's what friendships are, right? So I do check up on them once in a while, but I've given up. I would say the biggest thing I've given up is family time. And I don't mean with my wife and my kids. I mean with my immediate family. You know, my parents, my sister, my aunts, my cousins, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins. Like we used to, when we were kids, we used to go away together on like summer vacations and that's no longer the case. So I think, I think that that's, um, but I, but I got to say I'm, I'm willingly doing so.

1:53:40No one's forcing me to do that, but I know what I need to do to maximize the potential of this. And that's the problem with me. And it's, it's not a problem. I guess it's like a gift and a curse is that I always have to maximize the potential of whatever it is I'm working on. Like, I'll never do something. If I'm sweeping the floor, I'm going to sweep the fucking floor. Like, the floor will be clean. You get what I mean? So it's just the way that I am. And when I'm in something, I'm just fucking in it. So for someone that wants to build what you've built outside of devotion, is there any other big things that you want to pass on to the next generation?

1:54:18Ronnie Fieg:Work ethic. And I think that has a lot to do with devotion. which is getting demonized in this world we live in and that's why I bring it up and also purpose like people are moving without purpose you know I'm not cut from that cloth and I don't come from that era I'm like half my life is pre-internet era so and I'm so thankful for that I say half my life but every year that changes because now I'm 44 so I would say like maybe it's like 53 you know 47 but moving with purpose, I think that would be my, the most, the most important advice I could give someone, but you need the context surrounding that, finding a passion and then moving with purpose, you know?

1:55:04So like being passionate and then being able to be rewarded with happiness as a result of product is all of the, there are pieces there that then make it worth it, you know, but for the younger generation that doesn't necessarily know what they don't know what they don't know. So like getting started is the hardest part, I think for them because figuring out what they're passionate about is harder than ever right now because they're being

1:55:43Ronnie Fieg:thrown so much information. So much bullshit. So much bullshit that how can you really decipher between bullshit and substance? Like how are they going to weed through that and then pick what they think is the substance that will make them happy if they work at it? I just find it so hard to believe that there's someone right now working at a store in the stock room building their way up and saying, I'll wait 15 years to get to this point. I just, I feel like so many people are just looking for the fast track. That's really what it comes down to. And that's honestly, like, I want to believe that I'm not part of the reasoning behind that, but showcasing the end result of product sometimes can, I think, create that emotion.

1:56:35like the end result is what they see i wish that there was a way for me to showcase the process more than i do and i'm gonna try and i've been trying to figure that out i really have been

1:56:49Ronnie Fieg:i just i don't want a camera in my fucking face all day you know that that's my biggest and i don't i don't want to like i did that for 18 months i had a guy follow me around for 12 to 15 hours a day, basketball games, Turks and Caicos meetings. It becomes, it's weird from a social perspective as well too. And that's, you know, that's, I'm trying to, how much of your life can you not show? I mean, that's the conversation I had with Gary too, off camera. Is it just like, he can't show, like, you're not going to show us the conversation in the room with the guy from BMW. You know, you're going to show us the B-roll.

1:57:25I wish that people were there for that, But I'm here to tell those stories. You know, it's not like I don't have those stories to tell. So, you know, eventually those stories will all come out in detail, whether it's now or post my career, whatever it is. And I'm here doing this podcast because I want to give information. So if the right questions are asked, I'll sit down and I'll gladly speak on it because I want to inspire the youth. And, you know, through our Connect Foundation where we bring kids in and we bring like a cohort of 15 kids in every year and we change their lives. They're like juniors in high school when they come in and they get to see what we do.

1:58:04And, you know, they get a mentor in different categories of the business. And we help kids that wouldn't typically end up going to college. We help, you know, make sure that they then attend. and we have like 100 % conversion rate on that. That's dope. I didn't know that. Guys, I'm going to pop down below some information on that. I did not know that. Yeah, yeah. And it's a huge, it's a big part of what we do. I have some great personnel between Emily and Sharifa who head this foundation within my office in Williamsburg. And it's a big part of the purpose around what I do. I'm trying to affect people's lives by giving them the information and the access so that they could build a passion for something.

1:58:53You know, like, and it's not for everybody and not everybody will become passionate about it. But if I could affect a few people by giving them insight and by giving them, you know, a foot in the door, then that's, I think that that's the best that I can do. You know? You've passed off a lot on this book. Let's talk about this book. I know you're going to have a lot more coming on the pipeline. I have the 10-year book. The 15-year book is coming out soon. Why don't you tell us just a little bit about the book? the book is fucking monstrous it's i think it's the biggest book that aseline has ever created actually i know it is it's definitely the heaviest and what the book represents is the full archive of every footwear release and it was reshot and the whole book is shot by tyler who's an og with the brand og with the brand the only if tyler wouldn't shoot this book i wouldn't make the book truthfully and Tyler he's giving you those flowers nah he knows that I give him flowers every time I speak to him so like this so the all of the shoes were reshot it took a long fucking time I think it took like eight months and then the index so like it shows it's by brand and it's chronologically by brand and then why don't you take a look at this and then

2:00:09Ronnie Fieg:at the end of the book we're gonna do a ton of b-roll on this book too but yeah at the at the end of the book you have the index and the index is all of my it's massive no the book is the book is crazy man damn yeah it's everything it's everything that we released and then the index go to the end of the book where the page quality changes wow oh yeah you're gonna wow every page so don't do that oh and that's everything i'm just gonna flip to the last i would say i mean we said a bunch of things. I think collabs is a big one. Your product photography. Yeah, we take that seriously. I mean, that is, you are the number one reference point on that.

2:00:52I appreciate that. Wow. This is insane. Yeah. So it's, it's by brand and therefore, you know, the purpose of the index is so you could see the samples leading up to the final product. You understand what I'm saying? Yep. So that people can understand the work that

2:01:09Ronnie Fieg:goes behind it and wow on a per skew perspective you're showing the match oh wow exactly and then the bold letters are represent the style that was released and the non-bold letters are the samples leading up to the release and sometimes they don't release at all sometimes none of them are bold because they don't release ronnie's got a 20 million dollar fund on the protos here Jeez, man. It's really wild to see some of these, I mean, have multiple protos, obviously, before. What do you hope people think about Kithin another 15 years, under the notion that you're thinking through that lens, before we get into these final questions here?

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2:02:45I'm going to expand what it is that we do. That's my biggest, that's like right now, what makes me happy and what makes me like excited is thinking about what we haven't done and then attacking it and, and accomplishing certain aspects of this world that people in my position wouldn't even dare to think about. you know being I gotta tell you like the most frustrating part of what I what I do and I should say like in the earlier years specifically was people trying to dictate what it is that I should be doing and what I shouldn't be doing like what are you doing that for like you know like their vision of the brand has a start and an end point when really the brand is my life.

2:03:41So the end point to me currently today is when I die, right? So I have dreams of shit that I would like to do. A lot of different avenues of lifestyle, human behavior. I want to change human behavior and have a positive impact on people's lives, right? And that's... IV is the start of that, you know? And I think that where it goes from there is uncharted territory, obviously, but I have plans that I'm in the middle of ideating and putting on paper.

2:04:24Ronnie Fieg:In the realm of hospitality? Starting from there. Hospitality is a portion of it, but I'm going to even, like... Thinking about getting into a membership club and then having the impact that we did on that category, I changed people's lives. Like, people tell me it's, like, their lives are so much better because of the club that they're members of, you know? Good food. I've been there. Yeah, great food. But the purpose of the club, you know? And that's just one avenue. A membership club is one avenue. I'm speaking about other things that I'm going to get into, you know? and hospitality is definitely like a passion of mine right now.

2:05:06Love that. That'll be a part two. All right, we're going to fire off a million fucking questions right now. Before you go, I'd love your opinion on this. Are they multiple choice or what do we got? Kind of, yeah. They're quick and easy.

2:05:17Ronnie Fieg:Okay. One word to describe Nigel Sylvester. There's so many things that I could say right now. You want me to say one word? I was going to say menace. There's so many words that I could use right now. He's like a gem. That's what I would say. Jonah Hill. a product nerd Jason Alexander one of our best shoots David Grutman a unicorn Greg Yuna actually the unicorn but I'll say he should be the menace actually a really great friend a really really great friend your dad most important person in my life I'm gonna go through a couple brands I'd love to know what you think their superpower is in the marketplace.

2:06:04Okay.

2:06:04Ronnie Fieg:Adidas. Their superpower is the history of Corchus. New Balance. The only independent brand left in that top tier of footwear. Asics. The Japanese perfection that I admire. Clarks. Modern, no. Craftsmanship brought into the modern era. On. Disruptor. Wilson. Strongest tennis heritage. Best designer not named you. Giorgio Armani. Top three sneakers or shoes in your personal collection. Specific shoes? Yeah. My Salmanto Asics that I'm wearing today because of what it meant in my career. The Air Max 95. Neon. in a new iteration that I can't talk about yet. And I would say New Balance 990 V3 in this UA colorway that's coming out with this book because that's the shoe that I always wanted in that colorway and it's finally coming together.

2:07:20Ronnie Fieg:The most underrated garment ever released by Kith? Every time we work on leather product out of Italy, so we have this like this new calfskin that we that we sourced out of New Zealand that I really love and we made this leather jacket for fall it's this burgundy leather jacket that you're also going to pop up on the screen right here the I would say our leather garments out of Italy looking back the collab celeb hit retailer what was that one moment that you think Kith really broke through I think there are a lot of before and after moments for the brand But I will say, I think the moment with LeBron was massive when we opened the LA store because we opened LA with LeBron.

2:08:03Is that the Pippin too? Yeah, the Pippin, Pippin opened, the Pippin project opened my, the Lafayette building that I was telling you about when we moved from Broadway. And the LeBron project opened the LA store. But working with LeBron, you know, a lot of people don't know this, but I directed a documentary about LeBron on and off. It was called Long Live the King, and it was about his life on and off the court. That was a great process. And I think that working with Nike on that, that was like working with Nike's pinnacle athlete on presenting a new silhouette in the 15 for the first time on the runway when we did our fashion show.

2:08:44and then having a shared patent with Nike on that silhouette that had a zipper that zipped all the way down the middle of the shoe that he played with. And then creating the shoes for his high school and my high school. Like that moment was legendary. I think that that was probably the biggest before and after moment. There have been really big moments after that, but I think that that was a game changer. Best business advice you ever got? How about this? I won't give you the business advice, but I'll give you life advice that then applied to businesses is every day should be unwrapped like a precious gift.

2:09:17It's nice. Mount Rushmore of Kith Campaigns. Pick four of them. The most iconic. We're going to pop them up.

2:09:28Seinfeld.

2:09:32Edward Norton. Scorsese.

2:09:40And Adrian Brody. proudest nod work moment in your life both of my kids having both of my kids both of my girls

2:09:51Ronnie Fieg:love that last four questions i ask everybody favorite book or podcast and why favorite book would be ride of a lifetime the liger yeah you're a podcast guy i listen as much as i could again like i don't have i live close to work. So I don't have that time, but sometimes taking a trip out East, I'll listen to, I'll listen to podcasts. My favorite podcast episode, I would say was the, I would say it was Senra, um, Travis, no, Steve Stout because Steve, we need to get Steve Stout on here. Yeah. Steve, Steve Stout is such, such an important person in, uh, I just, I loved everything like his, his BTS commentary on like how things were happening behind closed doors in, in music, but also in, in marketing gave me so much insight that I love to hear.

2:10:53So I hit him up as soon as I heard that podcast. That was so much information that I didn't know about beforehand. And I think that the best podcasts actually like educate you and, and open up your eyes to things you don't

2:11:06Ronnie Fieg:know about. Great storyteller. Yeah. Entrepreneur or brand that you want to get flowers to and why? I'm going to say Emilian D 'Or because I've known Teddy since he worked at a diner. And I've seen him just do really beautiful things and tell beautiful stories and also bring his life and lifestyle into what he loves the most, which right now he loves boating. And, you know, you're seeing that transfer into the brand. So he's bringing his life into the brand, which I know is very rewarding, but also very difficult to do. Great brand. I'm glad you said it too, because I never know how to pronounce it.

2:11:46Ronnie Fieg:How big can Kith be? Last question. No ceiling. There is no ceiling. Good ending. Appreciate you, bro. Thanks a lot, man. Appreciate it.

2:12:09We'll be right back.

2:12:18So

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