From Grand Slams to Flatlines: Inside the Operator Playbook for Surviving Stalled Growth

29:22So like basically, you know, tactics within a thing that you're doing is sometimes it's more often than not, not the case that you're not growing, if that makes sense. Like, it's not like you just, you only get so much out of meta ads before you have to start moving to other channels. Like, I think that's just true. All right, folks, this episode is brought to you by our friends at Northbeam, the marketing attribution platform that every smart performance team should be using. Northbeam just dropped something game-changing. It's called clicks plus deterministic views, the world's first deterministic view-through attribution model.

30:01Well, why does that matter? Well, because traditional one-day click attribution is completely skewed towards bottom-of-funnel campaigns. It's like giving all the credit to the player who makes the last shot and ignoring everyone who passed the ball to get there. You know the story. Your TikTok and CTV ads are building awareness, driving engagement, lifting overall revenue across every channel, but your dashboard says they're doing nothing. Meanwhile, Google Ads looks like a hero because that's where people click last. That's the click-only trap, and it's one of the biggest myths in performance marketing.

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31:24That's the North Beam edge. Clarity, accuracy, and confidence in your budget decisions. You'll know which channels are really moving the needle and which ones are just taking the credit. And yeah, the biggest brands are already using it. Manscaped, Dollar Shave Cloak, Hexclad, Gruns, and many more. So if you want to see what real deterministic view attribution looks like, go to northbeam.io slash demo to book a demo and tell them that we sent you. Because if you're still flying blind on clicks only, you're missing the full picture. Let me ask you this then, Sean, or I guess like number one, where do you want to go with this next?

32:02Because I got ideas. No, you take it, bro. I'm looking at the agenda, but let's go off the cuff. No, no. So let's just like, let's follow this. So like you, I think one of the things that I'd love to understand more from you is like this idea I saw that you wrote down in, in our agenda, it's like the hardest thing is that when something was working and then for some reason it just stops. Right. So like, let's just say forget, forget the, okay, I'm, I'm advertising on meta. I'm getting a certain amount of results. I'm not just nuts. I'm not just stalled now. It's just not working anymore. Like the, the rules that I, the things that I've been doing, they're just not working anymore.

32:47What do you do then? Like, how do you look at that? Yeah. And that's the toughest situation, right? Especially if you can't diagnose it quickly and you're like, just things stopped working. Right. Um, this happened a lot with SEO brands. Like if you're, if you're a heavily dependent SEO brand, a new update happens and you're like, I don't know why, but all my organic traffic has stopped showing up. Right. And a lot of it is we really are all just riding different waves. And it's like sometimes the waves crash out. And that is why this is – okay, if that happens to you, we'll try to figure out some advice to you later on in the episode.

33:23But like this is why you need to be diversified. This is like the whole argument to be omnichannel. It's the whole argument to have multiple product lines is that at some point something always stalls out, right? Right. Um, if you were, I mean, I think that one of the most memorable examples of this is there was a bunch of media companies who were built on Facebook traffic to their media. Right. Great example. Yeah. You remember this, right. And then one day Facebook decides to turn that off. They just, they just turned it off one day and they were big companies. These were not small ones. Like that was like Buzzfeed, right.

33:56At its heyday was, was one of those companies. buzzfeed huff puffs i mean the whole millennial wave of like content content engines on websites and then meta is like okay let's just do it on our own platform and they turned off one switch and it killed hundreds of businesses right um now meta is not evil for doing that right it's you you built your business on someone else's land but all of us do that it's it's it's all it's a feudalist system dude we're all building on each other's stuff um so yeah it's gonna happen the best thing you can do is be diversified to hedge against it. Do you, so on that then, what I'm hearing you say is you should assume that you're going to stall out and that you should be making moves now on the assumption that what you're doing will not work for much longer.

34:47So like basically operate paranoid. Yeah. Only the paranoid survive. Um, and I was, some of I've done this by my whole life and I've left a lot of money on the table by doing this. So the counter is I diversified away from Facebook ads very early. I was doing influencer ads and podcast ads and YouTube and all this other stuff in 2016. In retrospect, I would have made way more money just scaling Facebook until 2021. Right. But I didn't do it and I diversified really fast. And maybe my business is half the size that it should be if I just went on a lot of Facebook. but every year there was a 5 % chance I went out of business by not diversifying.

35:24And it's like, you never take into account the counter risk. Right. So that's, that's, that's why we did it. We just diversified it. At some point, Facebook could have just been like, we actually want$5 a click. And if it was my only thing I had going on, it could have totally me. Yeah. It's the, what you're, what you're hitting on is the most common, I think one of the most, if not the most common piece of advice in business is focus. Like don't get distracted. just like you've got something that's working, go deeper, deeper, deeper. It's the inch wide and a mile deep thing versus a mile wide and an inch deep.

35:55But the counter to that is in consumer, you are exposed. Most brands don't own their own distribution. We do not reach our own customers. We are renting distribution, whether it's from Facebook, Google, Target, Walmart, like Costco, we're always renting distribution. So what I'm hearing you say is it's the trade is worth it. Like the, a little bit of diversification, like layering it in over time is worth the sacrifice of focus because you get diversification. Totally dude. You know, I was just trying to think, I don't think any brand at any scale owns a distribution unless you're Walmart or whatever.

36:41it's like all all of us really are just we're along for the ride and the the more down to try new things experiment like just i think the higher chance of success and that is that is what the diversity ends up being is it a good thing is it ever a good thing that a business stops growing okay like do you should you be okay just taking a beat yeah look if your business is evil like if you sell fentanyl or whatever, I would love for your business to stop growing. Um, you know, this is one of the things that happen here. Um, if I run a service business and my service business stopped growing, so let's say I I'm a roofer.

37:28I sell, I sell roofs to people. Okay. And for some reason, my business isn't growing anymore. What would you do? This, this is almost like a child test. It's like I would try to get new customers, okay? And then if that didn't work, I would find new things to sell. Maybe I don't do roofing anymore. Maybe I also do gutters and I do whatever, right? I would expand the services and I would expand the customer base. The third thing is I would try to go do roofs in a different town. I'd be like, okay, I did all the roofs in my town. I'm going to try to do the roofs in the next town over. Think about that.

38:05Everyone knows that innately. If you had a service business, those are things you would try to expand. I never see brands do this. I never see product companies do the same thing. It's the exact same type of problem. Oh, I'm not growing. I should try to sell it to new people. Okay. If that doesn't work, I should try to sell the people who already buy from me something else. Right. If that doesn't work, maybe I should try to sell somewhere else. Right. Those are the three levers, people, product, place. It's like, that's what you need to focus on. Now, if you're not growing, your question was, Hey, you're not growing.

38:34Is that necessarily a bad thing? And that's when it goes back to the first thing, define winning. It doesn't have to be about that. Like not growing could be good if you're at the state of your business in life where you don't want to grow anymore. But by choosing to not grow, you probably have to change the economics of your business, meaning you probably kind of fire a bunch of people and cut a bunch of costs. Yeah, sure. Yeah, because you were likely while you were growing, you were probably investing ahead of the curve, right? So you've probably got people on the team that are for future revenue, not for today.

39:02um you know i sometimes wonder if the if the stall out is the forcing function that a lot of companies need to be more reflective because i think one of the downsides to fast growth and i've been a victim of this is like you you're just trying to hang on for dear life when you're growing really fast you're not paying attention to a lot of like the really nitty-gritty fundamentals that you would if you were going a little slower and you were like having a chance to refine the machine on the way up. You know, we experienced this with Lomi. Like we went way too damn fast, right? Like it was like zero to a hundred million in 18 months.

39:40It was just stupid. And we made so many mistakes because of the speed. And then we stalled out and then we had to shrink the business. But all of that was like net, net a good thing. Like now we have a better product in our subscription, like our net revenue retention after years better. They're like, all the other metrics are healthy. We just had to like sacrifice the ego of, oh, I have to shrink this company to actually get like to a much healthier place. Right. So like that part was hard. So I think there is an argument that like sometimes super fast growth is just going to mask a whole bunch of things that are going to come back at some point.

40:19And that the stall out is actually your chance to reflect and figure out what needs to be built better, like what needs to be fixed. yeah look and if you only like your business when it's growing and you don't like your business when it's shrinking it's like oh that's good yeah maybe you don't like your business that's good yeah that's really good i'm about to name the greatest Shopify brands of all time Ridge Hexclad True Classic Dr. Squatch Port and Leather Goods Princess Polly Kitsch Pit Vipers and hundreds more. What do these brands have in common? They're all using Revo. The number one retention, accounts, loyalty, memberships, referrals, cashback, everything app on Shopify.

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41:40You know when you go to like a sports game and like you can double click and there's like tickets, right? They brought that as a future for everybody. I am a Revo stan. I've been a Revo stan. They helped us run the best sweepstakes ever back in 2023. Revo is modern. They are quick. They are fast. And they're trying to cram value into this Shopify app. I endorse them. I love them. Check it out. Revo, I love you. You're a great sponsor. You're a great tool. You're my best friend. Talk to you guys later. Goodbye. Why do you think product companies treat this differently? Like if you're an agency, that's a great thing.

42:17Like when my, I owned my agency and we started to notice like, oh, like this is, it's difficult to grow the thing that we're doing right now. Uh, how do we actually like build it bigger? We went wider in the services we offered. I don't know if that, like there was a trade-off there for sure. Um, we probably could have just gone deeper and figured out more markets and like, there's other ways to expand. Why do product companies feel like they're a little less. I guess, uh, comfortable with this. Dude, I don't know. It's, it's the biggest pushback I get from brands all the time. I'm like, you should sell different stuff.

42:52And they're like, like they treat it like they're like, no, I've invented the whole, the whole grail. It's like, this is what, this is what people want. Maybe it's because it's harder. It's more risky. Cause it's like, look in service businesses. I'm like, yeah, we do Facebook ads. Hey, we're doing Google ads now. Why hire one guy? I'm like, yeah, he does Google ads. So I'm gonna go sell Google ads. Right. And if it doesn't work, okay, that guy's fired. And I, I sell actually tabula ads now or whatever right um yeah in product business your product development costs can sometimes be quite expensive um sometimes not but often it is right often it's like really risky to try a new product and go to markets hard you have to spend money the whole thing so i think i think maybe that's it they're like they're worried about um the the cost associated they also get like they're they're worried about diluting the brand or whatever and i always point to like name a company they started selling one thing now they sell a lot of stuff it's like yeah like yeah the the original macintosh computers to iphones and apple tv plus subscriptions where they they make shows now i'm like those you look like every luxury brand every freaking one like you listen look at the history of them it's like hermes started off selling like horse accessories bro it's so funny that that was the exact example i had in my head I always both think I'm like, yeah, they sold riding gear and now they're selling luxury scarves.

44:14They have nothing in common. Yeah. And I think that that's actually like, uh, I like those, I like those companies because they've actually had to shift with like society, you know, they saw like the change from nobody rides a horse anymore. Guess we need to make somebody for people with a car. Um, whereas like most of us now we're shifting. I think our businesses have to pivot around channels and go to market and a little less like societal, you know, um, I might have to pivot at some point here with Pili case where like people might just not buy phones anymore. Like that's a, that's a real threat at some point in the future is like, Oh, the smartphone is just a stupid form factor for technology, you know, 10 or 15 years from now, I guess we're doing something else.

44:58So, man, that probably speaks to the paranoid thing. I'm already thinking of that. It's like, what, what is the other crap that I need to like start developing to, to build this brand over a long time? Um, yeah, you're right though. Like when I talk to founder, Sean, it's often a big pushback though. Like I can't develop why my brand can't have other products is, is the argument I get so often. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up luxury brands because, you know, Tiffany's went bankrupt twice. it's like it's like i mean you know they they got bought for 20 billion dollars they're like they're you know the most prestigious uh julia brand of all time dude in the 70s they were trying to give away it's like nobody wanted it it's like yeah you you go through these these ebbs and flows as a brand uh goyard which is like arguably the most desirable leather goods brand of the past 20 years they were they were bankrupt in the 90s dude it's like a guy bought it like yeah it's like it's just it's what happened it's really hard to be it's really hard to grow forever okay it's really hard to be cool forever it's really hard to be on top forever like all of these things um it's like nearly an impossible game so like if you're going to be doing it uh change change is the constant factor they should count on every single year the rules will change every single you know it's uh what you're speaking to is the dynamic it's like why consumer companies are also not as valuable as other categories um i saw you and may tab going at this on x this week uh dude you notice i've actually i'm starting to say x on a completely different topic i'm no longer saying twitter i'm like holy it's working the rebrand is it's actually like it's burrowing into my brain that I'm now saying X.

46:49But I saw you guys post this about like the quality of revenue in a consumer company is much lower than even an agency that services consumer companies because the agency's revenue, number one, it's going to be contracted in some way. But number two, there's less question marks about like what drives their business. There's always going to be another brand, another product company that's hitting its upswing. Whereas if you're the brand, there's going to be questions about like, how trendy is this? Is the consumer going to buy this forever? You know, like, is this one of those sticky product categories that like, are you selling Coca-Cola or are you selling like the Segway, the little rolling machine that nobody used after four months?

47:35you know, consumer is so fickle that I think your comment on it's always changing and is, is actually like the most important one for people to take away. Like if you've stopped growing, one of the things that may have happened is you're no longer solving a problem that the broader consumer wants or needs solved, you know, or like they just don't care. It's like, You're just not cool if you were a lifestyle product. Yeah, totally. And let's really break down the advantages of a service business. And here's another example. Stanley. Stanley was doing$70 million a year. In, I think, three years, they got to$750 million in revenue.

48:16Yeah. Everyone wanted to be Stanley those three years. Everyone talked about how cool they were. They were on billboards, the whole thing. Now, this is two years after. Now, nobody wants to be Stanley. Stanley had to go through a 50 % revenue decline. They had to fire people. It's painful. It hurts, the whole thing. But the thing is, people did Stanley's ad campaigns, that agency. They still get a ton of business. They had business before. They had business during. They got more business because they worked with Stanley. And now they're working on other accounts, right? If they get fired from Stanley, whatever, there's more B2B.

48:52That's what you're saying is the predictability of revenue. so stanley right now is is it's an ebda trading business of probably 5x because they just they're like you just had a 50 revenue decline we don't know what this business is going to look like maybe they get 6x maybe get 7x right but the service business is probably always a study 6x in there it's like it doesn't have these ebbs and flows in the same way because of the predictability of revenue yeah it's uh one of the things that i think people would be surprised about with apple is how big their B2B business is. So like even the, you know, like who's buying iPhones?

49:26It's like a lot of companies buy iPhones. It's not just like consumer preference. It's quite literally like a bank is gonna buy 50 ,000 iPhones over the next whatever, 12 months. So I think there's a, if you're a product company, I think you really gotta think about, let me back up. If you're gonna be in consumer, You have to realize you are a product company. You're not just, you're a product company, a brand. You need to actually build a good product development muscle in the business. You can't just be a killer Facebook ads funnel guy and expect that to last a long time. That's like the riskiest position to be in is when I see a brand, it's like crushing it zero to$50 million.

50:16I'm like, there's no new products. and you're just running on one channel. I'm like, you are the most fragile thing in the ecosystem because too many things can change out of your control that kills you, like just nukes your company. So like you have to build product development muscle is probably number one. And then that's going to allow you to enter more markets and more channels and talk to different types of people, which is then going to get you the diversification. Dude, it's all fantastic advice. So this is what people need to be doing. And you and I both have service backgrounds. So I think it's easy for us to understand.

50:56You have an amazing product development team in Cycle. And you're always flexing that. And it's like, you got to sell to more people. You have to sell more places or you got to sell more products. It's like, that's how you grow as a business. And it doesn't matter if you're Apple getting into iPods. It doesn't matter if you're Hermes getting out of saddles. Like that's the solution. You know, what you are hitting though is, dude, like even culturally in my company, I have people who have allergic reactions to like adding more product sometimes. They're like, does that fit the brand? Like everybody has an opinion on like, does a product fit the brand, which is valid.

51:33Like you should come up with some kind of like set of rules for like Ridge isn't going to turn around and start selling lettuce. Like that doesn't work. Right. So you, there should be like, there's obvious things that you shouldn't make, but I, I don't know if you've had this experience, man. I, we are finding product categories that are like real debates here. It's like, does this, and people get really passionate about like, we can't, we can't possibly release that. And I'm like, well, why not? You know, like goes with the other, we sell. Yeah. But they get, they get crazy about it. Yeah. We fought a million times internally of rich it's we we call it the the product brand aperture it's like how big is your aperture right like how much how much light are you willing to let in uh and mine is bigger than everybody's that's what it comes down to i'm like yeah i'm like we're doing deodorant we're doing t-shirts we're doing bar soap i'm like yeah name a thing i'm gonna try to sell it because you said lettuce and i'm like well let me think about that when i sell lettuce that's good Okay, I got to take a break and tell you a quick story from a few weeks ago.

52:42We were at eCommerce Fuel Live. This is Andrew's live event that he does once a year. It's like 200 brands. They do a great job. And this story is just too good not to share. So like, bear with me while I tell it. And I'm at the opening night party. I'm talking with Amit, CEO of RichPanel, one of the great sponsors of this podcast. And Amit and I are having a good chat. And beside me walks in Katie to say hi to Amit. And Amit looks up and I swear to God, this is true. he goes hey Matt is this your EA and before I could react Katie absolutely tears him a new one and says I am not Matt's EA I Matt is my EA so if you ever wanted a lesson in how to stick your foot firmly in your own mouth this is it Amit could not catch a break the rest of this event deservedly so right and by the end of it I think she actually said I will never switch to rich panel unless you give me 100 % discount.

53:37Now, I know this is a strange sponsor read, but I just needed to tell the story because I think it's kind of funny. So I don't think Katie's going to get 100 % discount, but honestly, I don't think you need it. Switching the rich panel is going to pay for itself anyway. They are genuinely one of the best teams to work with. I mean that. We work with them at our brands. They have more than paid for themselves in their software. So if you want to reduce tickets by like 30 % or more, save on your SaaS bill, go into Black Friday without any chaos, Give Rich Panel a shot. Just go to richpanel.com slash demo.

54:08And Amit, if you're listening, dude, that's just a terrible, terrible example of what you say to somebody when you meet them the first time. Oh, and Amit promised me there's actually a super special promo code. If you use SorryKaty, SorryKaty, you'll get 20 % off your subscription. Give it a shot. Look, you also, you had the foresight years ago what people might not remember because memory on the internet short is your company started off as Ridge Wallet and then you actually at some point it just became Ridge right and I still have people that I know that think of you as Ridge Wallet like they're just that's their customers of Ridge Wallet they're still not on the whole x Twitter thing like they still haven't caught up to where the brand is as a consumer dude that's that's most customers this week we we called customers for ads so i i dial them on the phone i'm like hey i'm Sean the CEO of Ridge and they're like what i'm like Ridge wallet you bought a wall off from us it's like yeah that's what everybody dude it just it take it'll take it it'll take two decades to get there but anyway yeah it's uh you know what it is too like i what i've experienced when revenue has stopped one of the things that we've like we've have absolutely experienced in our brands is our positioning just got boring like we just sort of we tapped out the customers who cared about a particular position and that we needed to move to a we need to try new messages or new positioning you know who did this i think um he called it trend trend surfing was will from i was it iq bar that we had on trends that's a concept that still sticks with me he's like you constantly have to be looking at trends and then how do you line up with those trends so like for him he did it with products and and like actual ingredients and function in his product we've done the same thing like one of the things that we tapped into in the last 12 months with with pila case was we were always our position was always environmentally friendly sustainable all that stuff well the last 12 months what we figured out is people started to really care about microplastics and their health and like i sell like the only thing that doesn't have any So that became a new piece of positioning, a new trend, same product, didn't change the product at all.

56:33But like the consumer shifted or like a whole new type of consumer problem showed up and that we were in the right position to actually take advantage of it. and we weren't precious about it. We're like, no, no, no, we can ride this trend or the local manufacturing thing this year, right? Like that became topical. We're in a position to take advantage of the trend. So I think if you're not in the spot as a brand to build new products, like right now, like you don't have a product on the ready to go. It's like wallet stalled out, rings are nowhere near ready, right? What do you do? It's like, well, you have to work with what you have And then that's just going to be like, we got to figure out how to sell the same thing to a different type of person now.

57:19And like, what else, what's going on in the world is probably the best place to start. It's like, do we fit anywhere else? Like maybe grandma's like weird wallets because they're indestructible or something. I don't know. Yeah. It goes down to the people piece, but let's bucket up this advice to these customers, right? All of our listeners, all of our great, great operators, fans. And this episode's about it's okay to not grow all the time. You should define what winning looks like for you, right? It does not have to be top line. That is the laziest horsepower type number. It's like, give me the bigger number.

57:58I want the company to be bigger. Winning can look like a lot of different ways, right? Two, your business probably has a natural size. And if you want to exceed the natural size, you have to start doing extraordinary things, right? Three, look at your business like it was a service business. You should expand places you sell, people you sell to, the types of things you sell. Number four, you do number four, Matt. We will go back and forth on these. What are some other things people should learn? Okay. So number four, there's an uncomfortable truth in consumer that sometimes the answer is your brand was a good idea for the moment or the product was a good idea for the moment, but the market shifted and that you need to shift with it.

58:40Totally. I think that's a good one. I would say number five is if you're going to reassess the future of your business, it's better to be more drastic than less. I think you should be like Danny from IMA. You should do the deepest cuts. You should get down to war mode and then start building it back up. You don't want to be one of these slow death companies, all birds in the public market. That is, if you're going to fail, fail fast. If you're going of move, you know, move with purpose. Um, don't just kind of stutter. Yeah. I think that's really good advice. I think, uh, I think the operate paranoid thing goes hand in hand with that.

59:22Like if you're, you should have some, some vision for the brand. Um, I know that's really hard to do if you're listening and you're like in the zero to 10 million, zero to$20 million range. because I remember those days. It's very difficult to think beyond like how do I just make the thing I have work at bigger scale? But I can guarantee you that if you take the time now to think about the next product and the next product and like how is this brand going to evolve over time and you can start investing in product instead of just plowing all your money back into marketing, that is going to pay off over time.

1:00:02Like you're going to have a company that is more resilient, is more sustainable. Dude, for sure.

1:00:10And this is a bonus one. If you ever have the chance to take money that changes your life, you should try to change your life. You deserve to change your life. Yeah. Don't be holding a million dollar bill and be like, yeah, but I really want$10 million. If you have no money, take the million dollar bill. Oh my God. And especially if you're young. Dude, like how many people, I mean, I know so many people who are like under 30 years old, they get offered a, like a price for their business and they just emotionally feel like it's worth so much more. And I'm like, but you're 27 years old and somebody is going to give you like two or$3 million and you don't have that.

1:00:47I don't, I cannot stress how much that changes everything about how you move through the world as a human. It gets so much better. If someone offers you life-changing money and it could actually change your life, you deserve to change your life. That's the thing. If you have$30 million, someone offers you 15, if you already have 30, yeah, yeah, it doesn't help. But really when you have nothing, I was 25 living in cockroach-infested apartments and dude, now I don't have to do that. Life's awesome. So anyway - Dude, Sean, I was never in that position. Like I've never been in a position in my life where like money was a real question.

1:01:32I'm lucky. Like I just grew up in a good family and like just everything kind of worked. But I can still tell you that like the first few million bucks, the first million, two, three is like actually life-changing. It just, all of a sudden you're like, oh, my risk tolerance now is much higher. Like I don't have to worry about my house. Like that's just a whole different shift. yeah i can eat any sandwich i want it doesn't any store that sells a sandwich i could buy it never think about it dude yes and that like that's a little thing but it's actually like because ultimately now too i can tell you this like i have a uh i don't know if you get this way with ridge but i sometimes still get stressed out about the business like i'll actually get like I'll feel stress.

1:02:22And what I've noticed is over time that I don't feel it for as long of a period anymore. So like now it'll be like, I get stressed in the day. And then by evening I roll around, I'm like, oh, but this doesn't really matter. Like I'll get to that place much faster. I wouldn't get there if I didn't have financial freedom and financial security. Like if I didn't have those boxes checked, I would be operating scared more frequently. And I find I don't make great decisions when I operate scared. No, I'm still an emotional wreck.

1:02:56But Matt, we'll end the pod there. Hopefully we gave some good advice to some people. That's our goal. No, that was good. 20 ,000 brands listen to the Operators Podcast. We want all of you to get 1 % better every week from listening to us. If that doesn't happen, I'm sorry. I don't know. Stop listening to us. Like, subscribe. We have a newsletter. We have an Ecom Fuel Partnership. Matt goes there every year and he's high-fiving people and hugging them. It's a great forum to share what's going on. We want to thank all of our sponsors. So we have 10 sponsors across three shows. They're all fantastic.

1:03:29So on this one, we have Fulfill, the number one sponsor, the greatest sponsor of all time. We have Northbeam. We have Saris Analytics. We have Rich Panel. We have Revo coming in, new sponsor. We have PostScript, old sponsor. We have a bunch of great people on this podcast. We have other sponsors on other podcasts. Listen to those shows. Matt, send everybody off. dude it's always it's always a pleasure just like jamming on this stuff i leave i don't know how people can leave these things and not get something because i leave and i got something uh and i'm the one talking sometimes so this is great man i listen to the podcast every week i think it's a good podcast yeah i always like listen to yourself it's it's like what do i need to hear today like what is like week old me gonna yell at me for is uh it's how it works all right dude that's the pod all right R medications!

1:04:18The roof Thank you.