Marketer to President: Posh Peanuts’ Jenna Habayeb on Growth & Data

29:15We all kind of knew what it was, but to see it here validated is like insane. And now we can make like real decisions, business decisions to answer that question. And that's through the work that the team has been doing with Saris. Yeah, I think when I first came on, Posh had brought on Saris Analytics, and we had worked really closely with them on, like, what were the priorities? How do we need to clean everything up? How do we also make sure that we could really validate all the data? Because we had a big mess happening behind the scenes. and they've done some incredible work to now get all the piping set up.

29:50And then I think that next step was really about how are we shaping it into either dashboards or specific models and projects that helped us make big business decisions. One of the first ones when I first came in that I think was at least groundbreaking for us to actually make very quick actions was we did not have a good handle on our inventory. And when I mean not a good handle, I mean, what channels had what, what was old versus new. And we were sitting on a pretty big inventory problem. And it was the first thing that we worked with Saras on. And they were able to help us bucket and cut all of our data so that every week, and poor Serene had to sit through this, but the first three months, I was like, we're pulling up the dashboard.

30:36We're looking at every single cut. We are reading and reacting the business. Why is this piece not moving? Why is this not moving? What do we need to do? Do we pull things from Amazon? and we put it back in. And it helped us in three months get into a phenomenal place with our inventory position. Because I think of inventory as capital, right? That is dollars sitting there that can be driving my business. How can I best use it to move the business forward? And you have so much control over that. Like you can't, I mean, just knowing what it is and where it is and like there's controlling the buyer's purchasing decision is what marketers are trying to do.

31:13in my opinion, it's just like, it's much more difficult work than understanding and controlling your inventory. But there's a lot of dirty work behind the scenes that has to happen to get it right. But it's just, it's just very doable with the right solutions and the right effort. And that's, I think that's really one of the keys here. It's like, it's, it should be table stakes for everyone to get this right. And it's amazing how often you hear about people having inventory problems. Your only inventory problem should be that for some reason, customers don't want to buy it. Right. And then you figure that out.

31:44But everything else, like you should have complete control over. And that's essentially what happened for you guys. Right. Yeah. And I think I echo what Shireen says is I've been in so many organizations. Let's be honest, like nobody really I mean, maybe if you're a giant organization, but nobody really has it right. Like I'm surprised to be like, you're an organization this big. And like you still don't have your data shaped in a way that that's usable. And so I think it's really about like chipping away at it and not, you know, getting so nervous about the task ahead. And that's like, that's what we did.

32:18We were like, I came in and I was like, inventory, number one, like we got to get a handle on this. We need to leverage this. We need to get ourselves in a good, good position. I said, number two was working with Shereen, getting all the data we needed piped through all of her dashboards so that we could make real-time decisions on everything we're doing on the growth side. the third one that we tackled and this is the one that she's saying we explored around in the cave I love that analogy was really getting much deeper cuts on our assortment we have a wildly complex assortment right we have collaborations we have internal prints we have all different size ranges we have genders we drop every single week and so really understanding our assortment has been critical so that we don't get into inventory problems, right?

33:06Now we can be buying more sophisticated. We can understand how we want to design in the future. We know what drove the business. And so that's probably the third big leg that we've been working with Saras on. And yeah, we now have some really fun dashboards I've been tinkering around into. I'm like, oh, what happened here? Long-time sponsor North Beam is launching Incrementality later this quarter. This means that you can now have the trifecta of marketing measurement all in one platform. That is multi-touch attribution, media mix modeling, and incrementality holdouts all inside of Northbeam. You can automate that lift testing end-to-end, unify results with your MTA and your MMM.

33:46This is a lot of letters, but if you know, you know. And you can start to cut what doesn't work, and you can scale what works. And you can do this all with confidence. This is why this is such an incredible add to Northbeam. North Beam's incrementality measures what results marketing is actually generating, not just what they're claiming credit for. As a CEO, that's like music to my ears. Sign up now and you can lock in 50 % off unlimited tests for the year. So you get your data all in one place, cleaned up, which is a tremendous amount of work. Like that's the beginning. And people don't realize that.

34:18And, but when you do that, it saves so much time because I just remember everyone trying kind of grab data from here, grab data from there, put it in a spreadsheet, manipulate a spreadsheet. The data, who knows if it's right or wrong, but there's just like so much manual effort, right? And you get this all set up and you have it all going. Then you have dashboards, right? Shireen's got dashboards for performance marketing. You've got dashboards for all of your inventory. What I want to do and what we're doing is actually taking that to the next level with AI. And I don't want to look at a dashboard.

34:54I want to get a report. You know, I'm a C-level executive. I don't want to log in. I don't want to get it. We get a bunch of daily dashboard updates, which are hugely valuable, but I want like the context to go with it. And to me, like that's the next frontier and really fun. And I'm actually working on that with Sarah's is like, I'm getting, I call it a, and I shouldn't really give this away. You should please, because we're doing something similar. So please, can we all three of us share the tea? We're all trying to work on this at tandem and we're all in different phases. That's Sarah's probably going to kill me for this.

35:31But when you do SEC filings, there's a commentary around the financials called MDNA, Management Discussion and Analysis. And it basically brings the numbers to life with context, with a narrative around the numbers. And I'm like, this is what I want. Because I don't want to look at a dashboard. You know what I mean? I don't want to be peering into a spreadsheet. you know, tell me what's going on. Like the system, we have all the data and then you have dashboards, but dashboard 2.0 is like really just like a narrative report, AI leverage narrative report. So every Monday I get an MD &A report, which basically goes over all of our sales performance across various channels, across various countries, marketing metrics that underpin it, new customer versus returning customer.

36:22And like, I just keep adding more to this report. And it's, this is what I need as a senior executive. But you cannot do any of this if you don't have the data. And that's why we started the Data Warehouse Project a couple years ago now. You're definitely ahead of us, but we're coming for you over here. So yeah, we're also working with Saris. we've obviously now that Claude you can leverage with MCP on top of your data warehouse we're starting to really explore that because similar right I'm I joke about I call it spread spreadsheet sludge but I have like 400 tabs open and I'm like okay what's happening here what's happening here what's happening here like all of that and I I really want to find a way to simplify this and how can AI help you know surface that for me but also allow me to very quickly dig in like you know, I don't want to have to go to Shopify or look into six dashboards and be like, what were the top selling products?

37:24What were the bottom selling products? Why did this thing move? What, where am I breaking in my ages, right? Am I acquiring more customers at a younger age? Am I, are some of my returning customers aging out? Like I want to be able to get those quickly so that we can react quickly. And I know, Shereen, we've been doing even some work. She has a Slack integration that kind of does that just on the marketing side. And I'm like, okay, now if I could have that in a broader view, that'd be amazing. Yes. This is my belief about the future. is that everyone hates using dashboards. And yeah, having been in data leadership roles at both Bobby and Ilya, it's like pulling teeth to get people to look at a dashboard.

38:00So being where the people work, like surfacing insights in Slack or sending dashboards in email, like automated, or even allowing them to chat with the data the same way they would a data analyst, you know, like tagging them in Slack and getting insights back. I feel like that's where the future is going and that's what AI is going to unlock. But, you know, we've all experienced this. AI data analysis can be slop if you don't have the data warehouse. You still need, like, the data coming in. It's clean. It's modeled. And then you put AI on top of it. Now you have a data analyst that can answer you in five minutes.

38:41Yeah. It's crazy how fast it's happening. That's what I'm saying. I almost feel like I feel a little jealous, like all these people are coming into this business. I'm like, man, like you're going to be in a place where you're going to leapfrog this. We're going to do all this hard work to get here. And, you know, for me, it's like Shereen just said, not wanting to get in in dashboards. As a senior leader, you should be getting information that this basically like sets off alarm bells in your head. Like, OK, this channel is doing well. This channel is not. What do we do? right? It gives me the information so that I can go start asking questions.

39:18You know, you, you, you all are like maybe more in the tactical side of things, even though Jenna, you're a president, you know, I think eventually organizations get so big where you as a leader have to have this information to just to be able to go to people and ask like, and, and then, and then you develop the strat, the strategic plan to, to make the changes that you need. If one channel that's the way I look at it. It's like we have our channels. It's like certain channels I used to get great information about, right? Because it's just there. Other channels, I just wasn't able to. So it just made it difficult for me to like really understand what was going on.

39:58Like my information was just like old, right? It was just slow. So this is, you know, doing this properly, having yourself, you know, set up diligently is just going to make you so much faster at everything you do and and if you're and if you're not if you're not able to speed up like you're gonna get laughed yeah and it is i mean it's daunting i think all of us even the evolution of what's happening in the ai wars it's like every day you know i'm like oh great we were using this platform this thing has changed okay now it's this one and i think it's it's really about you know where do you want to focus your energy and what's most important and for me this initiative of us figuring out how we can leverage AI on top of our warehouse and then building out the really key use cases for our team, because you also have to train your team on how to use this, I think is going to give us a really big step forward.

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41:31Book a walkthrough with the Saras Pulse team today. Click the link in the description. And thank you, Saras, for bringing you this show. So, Shereen, can you give us some real world examples like about, you know, what you're doing on top of your data? Yes. Okay. So, I'm experimenting with agents. And what I really want to figure out is like how to bring more agents into Slack to do work alongside us. And I've been testing some with my team. And I want to test more of them. But, yeah, we have our data warehouse. We have all of our data coming in. And then you now like the future of building software.

42:10Well, the past of building software is building software and giving users access to it. The future of building software is creating software, creating a data warehouse, giving an agent like an API access into the software and then just interacting with the agent directly in Slack, giving it access to Asana, your project management tool and having it do tasks for you. So that's what we're experimenting with is like, what are the tasks that AI can accomplish well enough that may need a human review? How can we get AI in our systems that we work in, not get a bunch of people to try and like take all their work out into an AI system, but get the AI into our systems and have them like actually execute on tasks?

42:57that is super exciting. I feel like that's going to be the future. And if you can arm every person with an agent, it's like giving them a junior employee or like an intern. They still, you still have to train it. Still have to tell it exactly what to do. Give very clear context and instructions. Same way you would like a junior employee, but you just add an employee, a junior person to your team without, you know, minimal, with minimal cost. Yeah, that's the future. But I think it's all about having the right data, having the right integration with your systems. All right. So Jenna, I just, it's incredible to me, like all these huge businesses you've worked for, like Ruggable.

43:47Ruggable was a juggernaut for a while, right? And then I'll be honest with you, I don't have young kids, so Posh Peanut, I'm just blown away. That's the best part about the pod is learning all these great businesses that are out there. And so how has your direction changed from rugs to clothing, right? like to beauty i know beauty fashion like i've touched it all almost i don't i haven't done i haven't done cookware yet though home's close i know well we you know we might be able to change that for you but but yeah i think i i'm i'm super curious we didn't dig deep enough into this but like you know what what are the what are the things that like translated well for you and And then what are the things that you had to like learn along the way?

44:48Yeah. I mean, I think most of the core fundamentals are there. There's obviously a lot of nuances in different businesses, especially with your distribution channels, right? You know, working in fashion, when I was at Seven and Splendid, you know, 50 % of our business was wholesale. You know, another 25 % of our business was our own brick and mortar. That's very different to manage than like a pure e-com business. It's just very different. Like, how you invest dollars, how you think about marketing efficiency, how you think about marketing in general, right? So I think there is definitely some of that nuance and that, like, mental shift I had to make moving into other roles.

45:28I think when it comes to, like, Ruggable, it's also... It was a very unique business model because it's made to order, right? And so, for me, the biggest mental pivot from, like, the actual physical product perspective from Ruggable to Posh, and especially in a president role with Posh, is the inventory piece, right? With Ruggable, you just had to buy raw materials and then the rugs are printed, right? And then they would go out. And so it's all real time. And so I always joked about, I'm like, if we did a Barbie partnership and we did a hot pink rug, if none of them sold, none of them were made, right?

46:07Like, it's not a big issue. With Posh, if we buy a hundred hot pink onesies and none of them sold, guess what? I have to deal with that, right? So that was a big mental shift for me. From being a marketer to being a president, right? And now just having like the view and the responsibility for all of it. And this is actually like something that I struggle with a little bit because we have a great growth marketing team and they're all super smart and they get the whole, they do get the bigger picture, but you do sometimes, you're in your growth marketing silo and you don't realize that, okay, you want to run this type of deal.

46:49Well, what does that mean for inventory and operations? Like someone needs to fulfill it. What happens if we do, you know, two different gifts with purchase and one just blows, you know, blows out. And then it's like, wow, we sold 5 ,000 units of this and we're not going to get any more for four months. And there's operational challenges to this. how was this transition from you? Was it easy? Was it hard? Like, tell me about that. Because I feel like that's a huge, like leveling up in perspective to be able to say, hey, there's all this other stuff behind the scenes that we marketers aren't doing and need to be aware of.

47:28And, you know. I think it's, you know, in the beginning, it's daunting, right? You're like, it's the same way as a brand person. Someone showed me the spreadsheet for acquisition, I was like, now I have to be in the spreadsheet. It's kind of like that, right? Where I'm like, now I got to get behind the scenes and figure out what's going on with the assortment and inventory. So, you know, it's daunting at first and then you kind of have to break it down and chip away at it. I think it's another one of those light bulb moments for me where, again, I think about, oh, creative and brand, it was so sexy and I can make it really amazing.

48:05But now I know how the channels work and what works in the channel. So now I can make the creative better for the channels. Well, now I know the inventory and the assortment, I can make the creative better and the channels better to actually help. Right. So it's like, again, I keep using those like light bulbs keep going off in my head. I think that that it actually helps. So as daunting as it is to really unpack it. And again, there's so many nuances and complexity in our assortment. You know, a lot of what we've been working on and Shereen, you know, she's here with us every day looking at it is, okay, we thought these things were going to happen.

48:38We thought marketing XYZ was going to really work. It didn't work. We didn't see the traction. What's the next best thing? Or we're seeing this ad take off, right? One of the things that we worked a lot on is how can we make our core business a bigger percentage of our business? And we have been hustling on the performance marketing side, hustling so well that we sold out of everything, right? And so we're like, all right, we're getting some good traction. We're bringing in younger audience. Now, how do I maintain that on the inventory side, right? And how do I make sure that we're buying into it?

49:11And so I think as hard as it was a dive into it, it's really allowing us to move a lot faster and figure out what needs to be put into the marketing funnel for us to be able to actually drive the business faster. You know, one thing we talk a lot about is, you know, we have all of our launches, we have core products, we have key categories that we want to market. Like, I want to have a bucket of us focusing on slow movers, right? Things that we launch that's just getting buried in the site because we're launching every single week that are great products. How do we like focus on the slow mover so I don't have to just move them into markdown and now have a margin hit, right?

49:50So it's like, that's how I want us to start thinking about our assortment. Or as we're seeing, are there certain categories or styles that are really driving that new customer acquisition? What are they purchasing next so I can keep them retained? Or are there key products that are high LTV that we need to be putting more energy in as we're acquiring customers? Like that's, I really, Shereen and I actually talked about it this week. I'm like, I want to be better dock connecting with like, how do we leverage our assortment? Not just what we're dropping, the creative and the performance channels.

50:22Like how do we leverage our assortment stronger as a driver of growth? And you were at a massive apparel brand before that drove a pretty significant turnaround. You were at Seven for All Mankind. You guys had six consecutive quarters of profitable growth after five years of decline. That's an insane turnaround. Talk about that. How did you guys drive that? I think that, like, honestly, the biggest thing, and this is, it was probably a good learning as I moved into the president role, was operational efficiency. We had three apparel brands that were running completely independently, right? So three PD teams, three design teams, three marketing teams, three everything, everything.

51:08And so it was about intentionally consolidating where we thought we could get the best operational efficiency and then keeping subject matter expertise, especially in the places of brand distinction and in design. Right. Like those are the things where it's like it made each of those businesses unique. So I feel like that was probably the best underpinning of it. And then it was really about building culturally relevant brands. It's like Seven for All Mankind had been this premium denim brand, but it was so standoffish in a time where the world was really rallying up around inclusivity. And so we worked with not only the design team on making sure that our range of designs were more broad, but also even our size ranges, right?

51:53Like much more inclusive denim. This is the rise of a good American that had a much broader size range. And so we did that not only on the design side, but then also on the marketing side. So working with culturally relevant influencers, creators, and like really bringing it, you know, into the modern age. So I think those two things together helped us really drive a more efficient business. And that's really just spotting like the marketing trend, really. And at the end of the day, so much of, you know, jeans brand, apparel brand, or almost, you know, anything that's not like a durable good. it's just being having your finger on the pulse and like a change is happening and how do we react and if there's just a lot of businesses like when you're when you're smaller you can do that as you get bigger it gets harder to do it and one of the things that i that i'm trying to do is is run a big business like it's a small one and let's let's talk about the people side here for a minute because we've been talking a lot about data and analytics and stuff like that.

52:59But as you've been across a number of large businesses, I mean, you must have like dealt with all kinds of issues people-wise. And just in general, it's like seeing so much. I mean, we have about 200 employees. I don't know. How many employees at Posh Peanut? 60 at posh, which is interesting because I've had 100 person marketing teams before. So it's like such an interesting shift. That's incredible. So like, and it's, I feel like the people side, you just, with so much information out there now, everything going viral, people being able to just like spread the word about of anything inside an organization.

53:49How are you dealing with like the people side of your organization today? Did you have something really bad happen to you? Because I feel like you're like, so we have a PR crisis. Can you help me solve it? A friend of mine. No, you know what it is? Like for me on, I'm a little bit older. So I'm a little bit old school and I've had to adapt to, you know, just new generations of people. And I think there are, there are, but there are like, there are different ways of doing it. You know, some people were like, oh, you just have to manage people the way they need to be managed. And other people are like, no, you just got to just manage people the way you want to to get things done.

54:29Like, I would love to hear like two perspectives from two like incredible killer women, like their view on just, you know, people management and the people side of your job. Let's start with Shereen. Yeah, I think about this all the time because it's like there's two beasts inside of me. The one that wants what it wants and then the one that's like, maybe I should chill a little bit.

54:59Be like a little bit more human in this moment. But it's hard because when you're driving a team up a mountain, it's not easy. Like climbing a mountain is not easy. And you want them to not get distracted. You want them to stay focused. And you have to keep instilling what you believe like the direction is. Because people have a tendency to like wander, look at other objects. It's like, no, we're going up the mountain. Remember, we're going up the mountain. And it's sometimes for me, it gets hard to be like, okay, everyone has different things going on. They have different styles of working. They have different styles of learning.

55:37And there are moments that you have to adapt to that person. And there are moments that you have to be like, okay, we're getting back in the boat and we're rowing. And I think what helps is finding ways to communicate that to people. like if we can debate, like sometimes I'm open to debate and I will ask for opinions. And other times I just want us to get in the boat and row. And sometimes I've even had to tell people, hey, when I say like, this is the direction we're going in, that means like the debate's over, like this is the direction we're going in. But I think it helps for people to even know, like have that verbal cue so that when you have a conversation with them, you can be like, all right, this is the direction.

56:22And then they just know, like, that's the cue that, like, okay, the debate's over, we're going, we're getting in the boat and we're rowing. Um, but I think I've watched Jenna handle, like, manage a team, a large team. And it's so impressive, Jenna, because you're, like, you're no BS, you're very direct, but you're very gracious. Like, you're super kind, but you will, like, you also do this, you have these, like, verbal cues. where you'll say, Elmo, what is Elmo again? Elmo, enough, let's move on. I had to bring that to a meeting. I'm like, guys, like on the next thing, we gotta go. Yeah, and it's like those little, like they're like, everyone has them.

57:04Everyone has these like little phrases that tell the team like, okay, it's like, let's just go. Let's just move on. So I don't know, but yeah, Jenna, what about you? No, I mean, I really, I enjoy working with Green because I think we have very similar working styles. I mean, look, I also think it's hard. All three of us grew up in a day and age where you went to work and you worked hard and you waited until your boss left, right? Like, I don't know, that was my experience. I was like, I'm not leaving before my boss leaves. And then obviously the rise of COVID, new generations coming into the workforce.

57:39It's kind of like hard to break that mental model of like, you got to put the sweat equity in. You don't just become a CMO overnight. You bust your butt to get there. And so I think there's a little bit of how do you lead with positivity and motivation? But again, I think, yeah, to Shireen's point, you know, being very specific and direct. I, you know, one of the things I initiated with the team this year as we shared out our budget, as we shared out our vision for the year is kind of like a hallmark phrase for our team, which is simplify to amplify. and I'm forcing the team to ruthlessly focus.

58:16If it is not on this agenda, you need to be proving to me why we need to be focusing on this. Like if it is not, if it's because we're wildly missing numbers and we need to find a new avenue, great. But I think a lot of that, even the Elmo phrase, I really, it's like about reining the team in because I think there's way too many shiny objects or squirrel that people are focused on. And it's like, it's all about what is it we need to solve? what are the actions we're taking? How do we get them? Let's move. And then, you know, it's just like keeping the momentum going. And that's what I try and do.

58:50But I do, I always try and do it with positivity because I find at least people are more motivated and excited when their leader is motivated and excited and hungry than if they're upset and, you know, driving you to feel like, well, you know, I don't have any good ideas. If you're scaling an e-commerce brand today, ads alone aren't enough. After Sell focuses on the one moment that every brand already owns after checkout and turns the post-purchase moment into more profit. Monetize every order with post-purchase offers and thank you page experiences without disrupting checkout or hurting conversion.

59:29Enterprise-grade tech used by Gap, Ticketmaster, Macy's, and Target now driving results for brands like True Classic, Hexclad, Ridge, and Jones Road. I would know. This is the reason I ended up buying three pans from HexCloud instead of two. Aftersell has already generated over$1 billion in additional revenue for e-commerce brands, revenue that doesn't require more traffic or higher CAC. So check out Aftersell and tell them that the operators sent you. You guys should, you should totally like write a book on leadership. Seriously, because I think it's so lacking today. I love what Shireen said about, you know you have to drive people up the mountain but you have to be human in the moment sometimes too and there's that tension and you both make me feel a lot better about the way i do things because i sometimes worry if i'm being too tough with people uh you know i grew up in big law investment banking grew a bunch of tech companies like and i i when i was a when i was a first year associate at Skadden as an M &A lawyer, there was this one of counsel who I used to work for and every time I would be leaving his office, he would say, just get it done, Jason, just get it done.

1:00:40He would be muttering it under his breath. It was really weird, but I think about this every day and I talk about our GSD DNA, get it done. Ultimately, there's that balance between being human and getting it done. I feel like I have heard people in the organization are intimidated by me. And I don't like that. I don't like, oh, people are afraid to have a meeting with you. They have to present something. They're really afraid. I give people a hard time about their presentations because I think people don't know how to do presentations. But it's like I give it out equally. I give it out equally.

1:01:26But I think the message that you're both giving is like, you know being human is not the same as like having to coddle everyone i feel like everyone you know needs a therapy cat or something these days and it's like wait a minute like do you really need to do we need to bring therapy dogs in once a week to pet to make everyone feel good or like can you go home for that it's so true i feel like the more you spend time as a leader the more you, it's like, do I want to be popular or do I want to drive the team to excellence? Because sometimes those two things are in opposition of each other. And I have to remind myself, like, you know, I can get frustrated as a leader sometimes and I have to remind myself, like, you know, well, I'm actually here as a coach.

1:02:20I'm teaching someone something that they probably haven't learned before. I've had experiences that they haven't had before. So it's unfair for me to expect that they would see the world, that the way that I see them, I have context that they don't have. I might have been doing this longer than they have. And this is like an opportunity for me to really help someone get to the next level of their career and teach them the things that I learned. And I can either do that in a way that, you know, they'll remember like, wow, this person was such a kind teacher to me or this person was an a-hole. And sometimes it's both.

1:02:59Sometimes it's both. I've never seen Shireen as an a-hole, by the way. She really has it in her own head, but you've always been really thoughtful, kind, and intentional, even if you're delivering hard. You could tell from her tweets, though, that she's a killer. I love being around killers. Like the question is, you know, should you accept mediocrity or not? Because, you know, this is just like we're the kinder, gentler managers. And I really think that you just if you just accept enough mediocrity, you're going to fail. Right. If you if you allow for drama, you know, if you allow for gossip and all that stuff.

1:03:41Like you just you just have to kill that stuff as as quickly as possible. and I just love hearing from both of you that I feel like we're on the same page, Jenna. Yeah, I think we are. I think the hardest thing as a leader, you know, in this type of a leadership style is it actually takes more work to not just blurt out how you're emotionally feeling in that moment and being able to take, I'm talking a nanosecond pause in your own brain to package it up, right? Like, again, everybody's different. I'm the kind of person that's like, instead of being like, this is, I can't believe you did this. Like, I'm putting somebody in the corner, I'm going to go cry and be like, I don't even know how to like, how am I supposed to use that?

1:04:31It's not productive feedback versus, hey, I'm pretty disappointed with this. Have you thought about this, this, and this? Can you go back, right? You can get a better result out of that. It just takes more time and effort for me to have to distill that in my own brain, package it and, you know, present it. This is what everyone has to do at work. Like, and this is what I've been telling people forever. It's like, facts don't care about your feelings. And like, there's, there are two types of decision making in your brain. Like, Kaneman and Tversky have written about this. If you don't know who they are, they are like behavioral economics and really about cognitive biases and how people make decisions.

1:05:13I'm really big on this. System A is like your fight or flight decision-making, emotional decision-making. That's like the stuff that you needed to save your life, right? And then system B is your thoughtful, logical way of making decisions. And as human beings, we're always in a fight between system A and system B. It's just like by its nature, it's like programmed into it. You know, people talk about your lizard brain, right? And it's like, you have to constantly drive yourself and everyone else in the organization to be system B, you know. There's got to be some system A, especially in marketing and creative and all that.

1:05:52Like, how does this resonate? But, like, there's way too much system A out there, guys. Like, we got to get people in system B. And I think you, like, naturally get that. Anyone who wants to become a good leader, just have some kids. because like if you think your team is testing you, just have some kids and then you'll really learn what it means to be tested. But I think, Shireen, I honestly think motherhood helps because it's like, you can't just be like, to my point, you're a p***er, why'd you do that? It's like, all right, hon, we need to get the shoes on so that we don't step on the fit. Like, it's like, we gotta get going.

1:06:29So many parallels. This has been awesome. I'm really, I'm so grateful that, to have an hour to talk with both of you today. It's really inspiring to see what you've both done in your careers and created and what kind of leadership you bring to your organizations and the ability to go from being a brand creative person to a performance marketer to managing the entire thing. I've known Shireen for a while. Like I said, I tried to hire her. She's just like a killer. I love... I did too. I love being around killers. I've learned a lot from you both today. So thanks for coming on.

1:07:21My daughter Zoe is 22 and she's graduating from Wake Forest. She's doing communications and marketing. I would love for her to like chat with each of you for 15 minutes at some point. I'm telling you, she's an absolute killer and you're going to love her and I think she needs to know both of you I would love that I would love it