Why the Hardest Part Starts After Launch: Operators Build (E5)

20:09Sean Frank:I'm not suggesting we get into gummies because gummies have the same fatigue issue, right? I think that the tolerance for gummies per day, per person is one pack or less. Nobody wants to eat six packs of gummies, right? You'd have to

20:22Matt Bertulli:take 32 gummies to get our ingredient load.

20:26Sean Frank:Yeah. But you brought up pills. I'm going to take some gummies. Pills are just powder, right? With a different delivery mechanism. And all important too is I'm somebody who currently has a powder in market who launched in 2025. And I'm telling guys, it's a worse time to launch powders now. We're going to be competing with more sophisticated operators with more sexy delivery mechanisms. And maybe they're worse over time, but actually, I think customers have a very, very high tolerance for snake oil. I think they actually, if it tastes good and they think they're getting something out of it, the placebo effect is real.

21:04Sean Frank:And my evidence is, if you go on Etsy, there's people making millions of dollars a year selling spells. Okay. There's people who, so I do think the consumer kind of tolerates a lot of snake oil. So we, the education is going to be hard. I'm just letting you guys know, churn rates on powders are higher than if we did a different category. So let's talk about that though, Sean, because I think there's some really like practical things we can do with that. And the, the, Hey, let's go into another year of product development angle is probably not it. But like, I think that what we could be trying to build towards is a family of products where Winx offer solutions in a variety of different form factors that like I could see that being a way that we expand.

21:49I mean, we've thought about this with Trevi. There's like a life for like gummies out there. And it's like, I don't know. I mean, that can make sense. Can we make gummies that taste good, taste kind of like Trevi and have like whatever portion of the serving? So I can see a world where we eventually like that's part of the product roadmap is how do we get winks to some kind of product market fit is powder and then how do we introduce some of these other form factors the only place i'd push back a little bit is that like groons like uh how it's not really verifiable how it's impacting your body right it's like but sleep is more verifiable out of all of the supplement categories it's the most verifiable of like, we're all wearing these trackers.

22:33Like it's a little bit more concrete whether or not you got results out of it. So I think that probably counts for something. And, but I mean, I hear what you're saying on the placebo effect.

22:43Matt Bertulli:Oh, I think he's, yeah. I mean, it's all true. Like, I think this is it. It's like, we're going to find out real fast.

22:49Sean Frank:Look, I'm trying to say, like, what are my concerns on Christmas Eve? Right. And look, I'm not saying we're dead on arrival because we're smart and we chose sleep as a category. If we had another electrolyte powder with our difference being we had branded ingredients, I would have exited this project, right? And Mike, I'm not suggesting we do another year of product development, but I do want to point out the next product needs to launch faster, right? I totally get the first one being hard to build, but if we actually went to win in this category you you brought up create creates doing powders because they did gummies and then they're gonna have a whole suite of products i bet they're pumping those things out like you gotta just do it fast right i look to water boy they're they're dumping out flavors left and right so um if we're going to be in the category if we want to launch new stuff we're talking it has to be six months minimum turn that's the longest turnaround time possible yeah you know what you know what worries me if that's so like i don't worry about the powder for those reasons matt said a few times was just like in conversation.

23:53He's like, no one owns sleep. Like we can own sleep. And I'm like, is there a reason no one owns sleep? I'm like, maybe we're going to look back in a year and be

23:59Matt Bertulli:like, damn, this is a terrible thing. Yeah. Dude, Cody, this keeps me up at night. It's like, I can't find a brand that owns sleep. And I'm like, either we're a genius or we're stupid. You know, like I think this is like, we've talked about this in the pod before. Like nobody on every sleep product is a product in a large catalog of products. Like every supplement company has a magnesium or a melatonin or something, but there is no wellness brand, real one, big one built around sleep. Well, all we're doing is really just enumerating the challenges we're about to face, which I think is good. This is what we're up against.

24:37And you can do this. This is why entrepreneurship is so hard. If you sit there and start talking about why it might not work, you can come up with a really long list. And there's a lot of reasons why this might not work. And I think, Sean, you're doing a really good job of calling them out. We're going to have to have answers to that. Like, okay, we got to go up against all these other powders. Okay, we've got some disadvantages relative to what other people are doing on their acquisition funnels. We're going to have to be really good if we're going to be able to make this work. Like you said, Sean, like we're going to have to be willing and able to pay really high CPAs to make this work.

25:10So I think these are all really good things that we're getting out here right now because it is going to be, there's a reason these companies are worth so much when they work. They're hard. It's hard to really stand them up and really get to product market fit.

25:23Matt Bertulli:This episode is brought to you by our friends at AfterSell. Let me start by saying there is something that all of the best operators have figured out, and that is a new customer is expensive as hell to acquire. So every extra dollar you can get out of that new customer, well, that's just basically free money. Ridge uses AfterSell, Simple Modern uses AfterSell, Jones Road uses Aftersell, Pila uses it, upsells, downsells in the cart, checkout after purchase, plus rocked, so the moments right after someone buys make you money instead of doing nothing. Same traffic, more revenue, sounds kind of obvious.

25:54Matt Bertulli:We're building winks right now, that's why you're listening to this show, and Aftersell went into the stack on day one, not a bolt-on for later when we decided we wanted to finally get smarter. Look, Black Friday is coming, you know it, I know it, your traffic's going to go up, your ad costs go up even more. Every single visit is worth more than it was last month if you do it right. So don't just spend more to buy more customers. Make every visitor worth more. That's why we partnered with Aftersell.

26:22Sean Frank:Yeah, and look, I don't want people to, well, I don't want you guys to be like, we're doomed, right? Oh, no, not at all. I do think this is the locker room speech before we go out there. I also just want to have a clear-eyed view of what CACs are going to be, right? It's like, look, I think the first month we're going to have CACs of$800. And then we're going to work really hard to get the CACs to$500. Then we're going to work really hard to get CACs to$300 and then$200. And then I think we're going to be cruising if we get CACs to$100. And then we have three to six months to prove the churn pays for that CAC.

26:55Sean Frank:And then nobody owning sleep. I do want to point out the reason why sleep is such a good category, there is prescription drugs trying to solve this problem. It is one of the hardest problems in human history to solve. And 95 % of your sleep habits are what you do, right? When you eat, being on your phone all the time, your stress levels. Yeah. And we're going to be a small piece of helping that. But it's like, yeah, this is like obesity. It's like, yeah, there's a drug you got to inject now to cure it and sleep to that level of challenge. Consumers pay attention to it now. Like that's the difference.

27:31Like back in the day when we grew up, it's like you were the hero. if you could operate on no sleep. Now, you know, kids aren't drinking on a Friday night and they're actually prioritizing their sleep more than ever. And we, and one of the reasons why is because everybody's wearing a goddamn wearable, whether it's AuraWoo, you know, Apple Watch and measuring, you know, how effective their sleep is. And so, you know, there is a category there, but I think also the challenge is that a lot of people don't have healthy night hygiene. Like they just don't. They have no routine besides brushing their teeth and going to bed, like zero.

28:03Like, you know, for, I know when I was younger, like we were part of a generation that we'd wake up in the morning, have a protein shake, take our supplements and go to the gym. And you know, that, that regular routine and habit, like I'm questioning if we have to actually educate the consumer on how to actually build proper behavior in the evening because people don't have it like still, I mean, it's getting better because of wearables, but it's not the same routine as what people have in the morning.

28:32Matt Bertulli:Yeah. Yeah. Look, I actually, I like all of this. I think Sean, I don't take any of this as, I just think that's just being a good operator. It's like, if you're not going in eyes wide open and knowing like if anything that you can see, if you choose not to see it, that is not a good choice. What are you doing? Like putting your head in the sand is not a good way to build a company. I think one of the things that is coming up with this conversation, which I think is good, is just, we need to have clarity about, I heard this quote once that like every startup needs at least one miracle to work.

29:05You just don't want to be in a startup that needs multiple miracles. And I think it's a really good question of like, what is the kind of miracle that we have to have happen for this to actually really work? And I do wonder if it's kind of going back to how we did the packaging. So if we could talk about that little piece, like we definitely wanted to position as kind of a family brand and have kind of that angle. And the reason why I think that matters is that if we can really get multiple people in a family drinking this, then our chances of success are an order of magnitude better simply because the CAC that you can pay to acquire all of a sudden is just like a multiple of what it can with one person.

29:51So like$100 CACs are not scary at all if you can get three people in a family drinking this stuff. Like you can pay for that many times over. And I think that this is part of the ones that have really worked like Grooms. One of the reasons why they've really worked is that you get the whole family eating these things and that plus the price point, you just get these kind of insane user values. So, um, we're that, maybe that's just a call out is like, Hey, we're not going to be able to make this work selling this to 24 year old guys. Um, because I mean, maybe they can, I'm not saying they can't buy it, but like we're going to need families.

30:27We're going to need moms, head of households, buying this and buying it for multiple people for multiple months in order to have the kind of user values to really scale up marketing the way we want to.

30:38Matt Bertulli:I think ultimately, Mike, too, that plays into retail. The reason we made the packaging the way we have is like you want something that can work in retail. Because if we do figure that out, like if all things are true, right, to some degree, like on a spectrum, we want to be omnichannel. We don't just want to be DTC. and we thought that through, does anybody have the packaging, by the way? Can we show, like if somebody's watching this? Because I think it'd be good to show people like where we landed. I mean, we can flash it on screen or render too, and you can go to the site, getwinks.com and actually look at it.

31:11Matt Bertulli:But I do think that Mike's hitting on an important part, which is like, that stuff matters. I actually think, Sean, even the positioning is also how we fight against the fatigue. Most supplements, most powder, most everything is sold to like a 30-year-old dude. For sure.

31:31Sean Frank:Like almost all of it is all sold to like the same guy. I was talking to a guy last night who had an amazing business selling to 55-year-old women. So I would love to sell this to 55-year-old women, right?

31:43Matt Bertulli:Well, yeah, but perimenopausal women is where we're starting.

31:46Sean Frank:Yeah, like the older Richard demographic is just a better demographic. Here's my last piece of negativity, guys, okay? I'm just trying to be as realist as possible. I love it. We're on Christmas Eve. I'm sharing my concerns. The packaging that he's about to show, those are the football pads that we bought to go play the game. Okay? So this is not success in and of itself. We have the football pads. The hardest part of this journey is going to be going to Facebook and trying to win in that ad auction. Like we spent 18 months buying the football pads. Now we have to go light a ton of money on fire trying to acquire people.

32:26Sean Frank:So I'm very glad Cody's here, but that is the hardest job for sure.

32:30Matt Bertulli:You have been listening to us talk for years about building nine-figure durable goods brands. Hex Clad, Ridge, Simple Modern, Pila. When we sat down to build Winks, there was never a question it had to be a subscription brand. And being the veterans we are, we could work with anyone, but we decided to work with Skiyo to build Winks. Working with the team over at Skiyo has been awesome. We get to see all of the stuff that the fastest growing CPG brands are actually doing to acquire more subscribers and keep them longer. My favorite example of this has been incentivizing new customers to go from a monthly subscription to a quarterly subscription right after their first purchase, but before they get their first order.

33:08Matt Bertulli:The team at Skio has been sharing insights on how much in-portal flexibility to give subscribers, when to change frequency, when to offer product swaps, when to do gifting, what rewards should look like, what is cancel flow optimization. The list is freaking endless and they have shared it all. They have been incredible to work with. They are bringing so much value to this partnership. Almost feels a little unfair. If you run a subscription brand, you should be talking with the team over at Skio. They know their stuff. Okay, I'll just show you guys packaging. this front, I've opened this bag. You can see we have kind of like our hero character that we talked about.

33:43I think packaging looks and feels pretty good. We're in this gusseted bag, which just is kind of like a side note. This will come up later. We've talked about Amazon and one of the things we'll talk more about is probably doing maybe a different count on Amazon so you can hit a different price point for acquisition. But when you do the gusseted bag, what it does is it makes it whiter and that Amazon charges fulfillment based on kind of volumetric weight. Is that right? Anyway, so like it's one thing you can do is like the thinner you can make something, the less you pay to ship it. Just anyway, a note from me.

34:26Packets look good. I think the branding and the professionalism of things you can see like about this much of the packet is just full of powder. So about a third of the packets It's just kind of full of powder. And I think it's good. Like one thing I noticed on the packets that like we can do better is like it's a little bit hard to tear it open sometimes at the top. But that's, again, this is a thing that you can kind of clean up pretty easily for version two. So I would say overall when I first saw the product, like just kind of out of the box, great impression on, I think you're right, Sean.

34:58Like this is obviously just like kind of a piece. But I think this piece came out good. Like if you're going to take a really long time, this did great. A couple of call outs that I had for the group when I first got it on the back, it has like you've got your kind of nutrition facts panel and you've got this kind of like explanation of how to use a powder and the cute little guy and what happens. Don't pour this directly in your mouth. You pour this in water, mix it up, blah, blah, blah. A couple of things that I thought were interesting. We didn't put calories on here. And I actually thought you had to have calories on here.

35:35So I was surprised by that. And we're zero calories. So like people care about that. Like with Trevi. We should add that. We should add that. We should add calories. And we should also add. We don't at any point tell them that this is sugar free. And that's another thing that people care about. Some people do not want sugar. And are more likely to buy simply based on the sugar free. That's been a big thing for us with Trevi. So anyway, overall, really positive. I've got probably four or five things that we could do for version two of this. How many units of this did we buy? 5 ,000. 5 ,000. Okay.

36:08So for our very first purchase order, we bought 5 ,000, which is not very much. And we can...

36:14Matt Bertulli:That's keeping Cody up a little bit. It is a little bit. Can we talk about that again? Yeah, let's do it. What are our thoughts? Like, what's the conversation that's been had? Obviously, we don't want to go and buy a ton and we will have to probably iterate. But we also, I'm assuming we won't want to wait or be able to wait until we get a ton of feedback back to buy more. What are lead times and how are we going to approach or what signals are we thinking of looking at for next POs? That's a great question. Mike, maybe let's start with you. I have some thoughts. Yeah, so the way this is supposed to work with this type of product, and I am going to be really honest.

36:56I am sure our co-man is full of very fine people. I have not met any of them. And the performance of the last year has me at a very low confidence in them right now. But it's supposed to go pretty quick once you have one of these. Like one of the benefits of this type of product, Cody, is it's – are they in the U.S., Curtis? Or are they in Canada? Oh, yeah. when they're domestic manufacturers and it's just this powder, it can go pretty rapidly if they have the ingredients on hand. So like I need to know some details, like do they have the ingredients that they're using on hand or did they just order enough for these 5 ,000?

37:35And that's something we can actually do as a brand is we can tell them like, hey, we want to buy the raw materials and you need to keep the raw materials so that we can just kind of pull them down. So like, I think that there's just kind of this like really high level question of like, is this going to work at all? Is there any kind of product market fit? And then once we answer that, we immediately start attacking the supply chain so that the co-man is able to hit much tighter turns. So like we had a situation recently with one of our flavors that's doing really well, where we PO'd to having it in our possession in four weeks, I think, or PO'd to having it in Amazon in four weeks, which, you know, we just could never with Simple Modern do anything close to that.

38:20It's so fast. And, you know, we'll talk some about payment terms and things like that. But I think we're like net 60 with them. So we're literally like there's situations where you can place the PO, you can be way on the right side of the cash conversion cycle. So I think that one of the things that the reason why I bring up all the changes is that one of the big things before we order more of this is to just are there major changes to the powder inside that we want to make? And then what are the kind of packaging changes that we want to make? And 5 ,000 is not very many. So like, but I also don't know, you know, how long it's going to take us.

39:00If Sean's right and we're coming out of the gates at$800 CAX, we aren't going to be doing a lot of customer acquisition. You know, like what is 800 times 5 ,000? You know, we're not going to do$4 million worth of burn here. So like, I think that there's, it's kind of like we probably should go ahead, Curtis, and start documenting all the ways. and we'd want to change packaging and stuff in v2. We need to have a mechanism for gathering customer feedback to understand if there's kind of a fatal flaw here in the product or maybe not a fatal flaw, but there's just something that we want to change with what's inside the packet, whether that's maybe a little bit more flavoring or, you know, want to add or remove something.

39:44And then I think we need to kind of probably base our reordering based on you and Matt's progress of, I guess you, Matt and Sean are going to be more of the marketing kind of core. Like when you guys start hitting certain CACs, I think it's going to be getting closer and closer to go time. So, you know, Sean, with your model that you kind of threw out, like, I think once you get, once you start seeing progress, you know, Hey, we broke 200, we're heading towards a hundred. Certainly like, we're going to be starting to be like, okay, we got it. We got to get more, but probably not until we get into spitting distance of 100 or sub-hundred CACs where we even need it from just like a numbers perspective.

40:25Sean Frank:Yeah, look, we need to get to 1 ,000 subscribers. And I think if we can do that by the end of the year, that's a massive success, right? And 1 ,000 subscribers will probably sell 3 ,000 units to do that because there'll be some amount of churn or whatever. It gives us the six to eight weeks or whatever to place an order and get it in our hands. And, you know, if we start seeing 20 subscribers a day at a$250 CAC, like that is the best we could possibly hope for right now. So I think we look for those. Like we'll build a dashboard just like every single day we'll measure like a new subscriber CAC and we'll have a monthly churn number we look at.

41:09Sean Frank:But those are the most important metrics. And that's why I'm like. just do a dashboard give me like two to three numbers that are like what matters and then matt and i will just like laser focus on those we'll just do like a twice a day stand up on those matt yeah and as a side note this is one of the reasons why i would want to launch on amazon sooner rather than later is that what amazon is great at is it's great at more affordable customer acquisition and because there are so many people that are like it's kind of the equivalent of you You know, what's better than an in-market audience is like somebody who's like, I want to buy a sleep product right now.

41:46I'm like literally like put things in front of my face so I can buy right this instant. And so, but one of the things that, like I said, we've talked about is I don't, we'll have a different episode where we talk about pricing. But the pricing numbers we're talking about for our D2C offer aren't going to work on Amazon. That's not going to fly, especially as a new product. so that that's going to bring up some interesting questions of like do we want to put in another order for a smaller format you know like do we want a 10 stick count version of this that we can sell at a much different price on amazon and then how quickly do we want to get that going because to your point sean what we need is we need customer feedback and we need some initial critical mass and i think amazon could be helpful to that and that if we can go and pick up you know 15 customers a day at$10 a customer on Amazon, like that's, that's not trivial when you're at zero.

42:40So anyway, I, and that's a place where I can help. Like I've definitely done the Amazon thing before, although I need to do some research on the Amazon keywords and how much I think we're capable of doing there. So that might be another reason that we, we could potentially, like if we decided that a sampling route would be good here, Cody, like a smaller pack, then like that could be another reason to put in another order. But in general, it seems like we're kind of trying to push the other way where it's like, instead of like, hey, buy a little bit so you buy more, it's going to be like, hey, go ahead and buy three months.

43:12And if we're doing that, then it's less relevant. So I was all in on AI at Jones Road, but it's really hard to get large teams of people to change. But on Winx, I don't have teams because we're trying to keep OPEX as lean as possible. So we're going all in on AI and Runneth is a big part of that. Runneth and Motion are a sponsor of the show and we've been partnering closely with them to help run Winx day to day. It is the AI brain for our whole team. We are shipping as much creative as we can, as many angles as we can. We have it plugged in to all of our accounts, our email account, Shopify, Northbeam, all of our analytics.

43:49So it's got the whole thing. It is our AI creative strategist and much more than that. It's really our AI coworker. If we use it, HexCloud uses it, Jones Road uses it. It is the best AI brain for e-com brands on the planet. If you don't use things like this, I seriously think you're going to fall behind. I highly recommend it. So go to runneth.com and book a strategy session. Just mention the operator sent you and you'll get a thousand dollars in credits when you sign up.

44:15Sean Frank:Look, and I'm glad this is the nitty gritty. This is where hope meets pavement because all of us can sit here and be like, dude, sleep brand for older women with great ingredients, I'm on board. Let's go out there and do it. And now we have to actually go out there and win the ad option. We're talking like, okay, let's go get our first customer. And it's going to cost like$1 ,200 because that's just what it takes to warm up a pixel. It's been a long time since any of us has done this. We just did this for gut culture. And it's just a massive pain in the ass. So the sooner we get started, the better.

44:44If we're getting reviewed well, and I don't know how we'll get reviewed on Amazon, But if we are, I can pretty much guarantee you that I can get us to some kind of non-trivial number of new users on Amazon because I've just done this exact thing. Like I know I've spent enough time in that world in the last 18 months that like that can be a secondary growth engine. Or it might even be that it's easier to get to 20 customers a day on Amazon than it is on the website. but the website if we really want to scale this thing we've got to get this d to c loop figured out because there's just going to be a ceiling to how much we can grow on amazon and how quickly i'm much more confident than sean on this i don't i i think we can do this i think we can scale it um i think we need probably a different offer on amazon just like matt and i were looking at like what what you know competitors are doing like retail and stuff it's just more of a matter of when like if we want to place that po because i think the pricing strategy will just be so different because for d to c we need to drive this obviously ltv up super high but we have to drive you know a ov up super high we're going with a you know talk offers different episode but like we're going with you know bundles we're going with you know 12 week packs like we need to do that we're we're also so that we can afford these discounts we're you know and have a good hook for acquisition we're we're driving up the one-time purchase pretty high i just from what i've heard from you, Mike, about Amazon.

46:08Like we're going to need a smaller pack with a lower price point. Yeah. I mean, I think here's the big question that we need to figure out guys. Like, so what Sean's doing is the most helpful thing, which is we need to be skeptical. Like you got to have hope and belief to kind of build the thing. And then we should actually have skepticism about it. Like it needs to prove to us that it is the quality of product that people want. And it is the form factor people want. So like, I think that like, until we get to product market fit, we should approach this thing with skepticism from this point forward.

46:42So if that's our mindset, this is one of the things that we've been talking about within Simple Modern. We've been taught, like we used to just call everything a product launch. And I've just kind of like, I've kind of tried to push away from that messaging. And what I'm calling it more is product validation. Like that anything we put in market, we want to have a product validation phase. And we're really trying to validate two things. We're trying to validate, do people want this? Like, what is the demand? And what is the quality level of the product? And because I've just kind of come to, or like the way that people are going to respond to it in reviews.

47:15And if you don't have both those, then you don't have something worth really going into a full-on launch with. So that might be the question that I would be asking. We're not really going to be able to get good feedback at scale very quickly on the website about the product itself. And so I would just kind of push the group that whatever we do, whether or not we wait on Amazon or do it earlier, whatever mechanism we use, we have to validate if there's anything we want to do to the underlying product before we really try and ramp this thing. Because the biggest mistake is trying to ramp the product, trying to ramp acquisition before the product is really good enough to be ramping acquisition.

47:57That's the other variable. Yeah, if we went inside Groons, if we went inside Create, what they would tell you is they went through three, four, five, seven variations of the product before they got to the one that was worth scaling. And so like maybe out of the gate, this is good enough. But like just my knowledge of every other product I've ever done is that there's probably two or three iterations in here that we're going to go through. And the big question for the group is not just how do we get these acquisition numbers we want, but how do we get the feedback we need to make the necessary iteration on the product?

48:27because what happens is if you scale up manufacturing too quickly, then you're just kind of stuck in an old formulation, right?

48:37Sean Frank:Mike, I want to add two things to this, and then I'll done be the most negative guy on earth. One, on the Amazon piece, I would list the current one we have on Amazon at a price we're not comfortable selling it at. And what I mean by that is we should take the 28 pack or whatever we have that costs us$20 to make, and I'd sell it for$20 on Amazon because then we'll get positive Vine reviews and we'll get people actually using this thing. And then over time on that same listing, we launch a 10 pack or whatever, right? Like we - That is exactly what I would advocate for, Sean. I think you're completely right on this.

49:14Sean Frank:Yeah, we have one bullet right now. Let's use that bullet as many places as possible, right? So let's take the current thing, plan to lose money on Amazon because to tie to point number two, we should be very comfortable losing money. We're going against people who lose a million dollars a day. That's the industry standard, right? So like we should be super comfortable losing money going out there and doing this. And then the second thing, and this is actually for the audience to hear, the amount of effort that we put in to start it does not have any meaningful correlation with the success at the end.

49:49Sean Frank:So it was very hard to make this product, like awesome. Like we made something really good. There are people doing nine figures selling drop ship moringa on TikTok shop right now. Right. And that's a very successful business and they put no effort into it. Right. So it's like what really the point I'm trying to make right now is execution is everything. Right. So, you know, we made something really great. If we have to tweak it or whatever, we have to do it so rapid and so fast. And that's, that's my concern going into it. You guys have heard me on that. I'm going to stop beating that dead horse.

50:20Sean Frank:And now that's Christmas day, I'm excited. I want to, I want to just kind of like deconstruct what you just said there for the audience, because I think it's, it's something that an experienced operator would do, Sean, like the advice you're giving, which is it's easy to say, okay, well, we, we want to be on Amazon. We want to be on the website, but we really on Amazon, the way that we're going to hit a different price point is ultimately we're going to have a different stick offering, right? If we're doing 28 on the, on the website and we're charging$2 a stick, then we'll charge$2 a stick, but we'll do 10 sticks on Amazon.

50:51And maybe that's where we get eventually. But in the very short term, like you don't want to be buying more inventory to just avoid channel conflict. You're like, I would just rather sell the same thing and eat it. And like, as an example, sometimes if you're really worried about channel conflict, instead of buying more inventory, just call this a 10 count and sell them 28 counts. Nobody's going to be mad about that. Like, it's a good example of like, people just try and get ahead of themselves in the game, right? They try and like make it more complicated than it is right now. We need to make the 5000 units we have go as far as possible.

51:26We need to get as much information as cheaply as possible with those 5000 units. So like, yeah, we absolutely need to be on Amazon, there might be more potential to Amazon than we know, it would be insane to not even try Amazon right out of the gate. But we don't need to be buying more inventory just to try Amazon. So, Sean, it's so much cheaper and faster to do what you're saying. And people will be like, but what about the unit economics? The unit economics don't care. They don't matter right now, right? None of that matters until we find product market fit. And so, like, you can do all kinds of things that don't make sense on a unit economic basis early on, as long as you know that you can actually get it to the right unit economics when the time comes.

52:07So we did stuff with Trevi that made no sense on a unit economic basis, but I knew that I could get it there if I could find the spark. And it took us quite a few months. But then once we found it, it was like, sure enough, we could do it. So I love the idea of just taking some of this and allocating it towards Amazon and playing there. I think that's the right strategy. I'm getting back into the weeds. One of the things I'm probably the rustiest on is email. I'm super excited to be using OmniSend. They're using them on Winx. We're AI-pilled. We are using it to do everything. I'm running most of our email program from Claude and Codex using the MCP and it's awesome.

52:41We also have email, SMS and pop-ups all in one place. We have all of our flows, welcome series. It's all talking to each other. I love the platform. The analytics are really good. I highly recommend it, especially if you're in the position that Wings is in. New brand starting out. But if you're on a different platform and you're paying too much and you want to switch, they will do the migration completely for you. No lost data, no lost list. It takes only five days start to finish. and they are giving our listeners 30 % off the first three months. Go to omnisend.com slash nine operators to try it out for yourself.

53:15Matt Bertulli:This is sort of the, I think the thing, anytime I tell somebody what we're doing, their first question is like, well, how much water are you asking somebody to drink before bed? Right. And then that comes down to like the whole, how well does the powder dissolve? How much, yeah. Like what is the actual experience? How far before bed does somebody actually have to drink this. And I don't, Curtis, if you have like, uh, guidance on that, like, is this something that people are going to take an hour before bed, like a small glass of water? How small is that glass of water? Mike, and you've been trying it.

53:43Matt Bertulli:Like you've been trying the finished product the last few days. Um, I'm just curious, like where you guys are both thinking on this. Uh, yeah, well, I'll answer your questions around, uh, amount of water time before bed. You know, what we've done is we've made it try to try to make it as simple as possible. So eight ounce of water in a glass 30 minutes before bed, you know, and the reason why 30 minutes, most people digest things between 25 to 45 minutes. So that's when the ingredients are going to start kicking in. And 30 minutes is nice because it's, you know, hopefully you're doing it, i.e., you know, right before you brush your teeth for kids, you know, you're winding down, reading a book, whatever their routine is.

54:26And I would say that the eight ounces of water, i mean it depends on how you like a lot not small glass of water um okay and i think at the end of the day what what i've found i mean my kids have tried it and my kids initial response is like dad this great flavor is awesome and one of them said it's actually too sweet so the nice thing about you know a powder is that you can you can actually make it more concentrated or less concentrated obviously depending on how much water you put in it. And I think we wanted to lean in to a little bit more on the sweeter side. And when I say that, not sugar-based, stevia-based, you know, but we wanted a little bit more so that people actually had a good flavor and a good flavor profile because there are some ingredients in there like ashwagandha doesn't taste the greatest.

55:18And so if we actually had, you know, a nice, subtle grape flavor and the reason why we pick grape is if you actually look at everything from the Tylenols of the world all the way to, you know, even freezies, you know, it's, it's one of the most, um, besides cherry, it's actually one of the most frequent, uh, flavors that, that are geared around kids. So grape is a, is a quite neutral flavor for winter, for summer. Um, and so that's the one that we went with just because of, um, a variety of things. Mike, what about you? Okay, so I've drank this the last few nights. I think that my overall take is we, with the flavor, we do a pretty good job of masking the underlying elements.

56:09And that, as we mentioned, the underlying elements are a lot of times people will take them in capsules like ashwagandha. um so i i think that we do a pretty good job there there's always a little bit of an issue with sediment at the very end and this is one reason like when we're talking about free gifts i think the frother idea you know resonates with me or a shaker because i do think how much you get this shook up like um at the very least yeah you got to stir it you got to do something you can't just put it in a cup and then pour in eight ounces of water. It's not going to, you are going to have to do some kind of mixing.

56:48But going back, this kind of goes back to the product thing. One of the things I've been taking is glycine. There's really good evidence on glycine. And it's actually something that we didn't use in here. And I'm kind of have been doing some math, but glycine is super cheap. And if we added three grams of glycine to this, and glycine just is like it's real weird. It looks like sugar and it just kind of tastes like sugar too. So it's almost like a natural sweetener. Super interesting. So what I've been doing with this is adding glycine to this, which makes it even a little bit sweeter and probably more effective.

57:25And so like glycine and glycine is super cheap. Like if you go look at it on Amazon, like a tub of it's like, you know, 15 bucks. So like, this is a good example on the product side. I could see us adding glycine to this. You know, Matt, I think you said you were a little bit worried about the size of package, but like, you know, we're only really using this much of the package.

57:49Matt Bertulli:Yeah, there's room in there to add glycine. There's definitely room to get glycine in here. And so if you're talking about an ingredient that's going to make it sweeter and that we have the space for and isn't going to add that much cost. Anyway, that's my main thought so far, taking the product. But I think it's good. And I think if we, when we're talking about our offers, definitely one of our free offers should be something around the mixing of this would be my take. Yeah. I think my number one, the first thing that comes to mind would be, is eight ounces of water too much for the average person?

58:33Matt Bertulli:Right. Like, do we run into the whole, like, I got to get up to pee issue? Especially like older, the older your customer gets, the more that becomes a thing. I think you can do it with four. Yeah. But it just gets stronger. And I've been like, when I try it, I use about four ounces of water. Yeah. And I think you can, I think you can do that. But I think you're right, Matt. Like, that's a thing. As a man in his 40s who used to have an iron bladder and never got up. it's like I never thought about when I drink things. But as you get older, you just have to start to be – one of the things I do is I'll work out late at night, and it's like if I drink an entire water bottle while I'm working out late at night and then I go to sleep, it's like I'm popping up throughout the night.

59:18So I do think this is something people pay attention to. You asked a question earlier. I think 30 to 45 minutes, 30 minutes to an hour before you go to sleep is probably the right timing on this. Yeah, I do it about an hour before just because I don't want to drink.

59:31Matt Bertulli:like too much 30 minutes before bed uh and my wife does the same so she's like 45 minutes to an hour is typically when she's taking this um but i get the timing element too right curtis like there is sort of a yeah there's a window right did we do we put any of this on the package by the way is there instructions what does it say yeah it says uh mix warm mix with eight ounce Yeah. Drink 30 minutes before you need to, you're ready to sleep. One other point, um, this interesting about the ingredients we picked, um, this Afrin saffron. Yeah. What a great name. What should we, what should we trademark our name?

1:00:10Afrin. Yeah. We'll just take the ingredient, just drop the S it's cleaner. Uh, I like saffron is from my understanding, the number one, uh, like supplement you can take for depression or for like feeling mood. Yeah. Um, and it's got really robust evidence. And so that's another question, Cody, uh, and Matt, for you guys to have on your radar is like, how much are we saying like, Hey, this is a sleep product or are we saying like, Hey, yeah, this is going to help you sleep, but it's also, so like you look at some of the ingredients, um, what the ashwagandha, the magnesium, the theanine, like these are all, uh, kind of more general nervous system.

1:01:02Like they do a lot of things to just calm you down. Um, and so obviously like that helps you to sleep, but also there's all these benefits probably when you're awake, if you're regularly taking this, we, we mentioned this, I think in one of the group chats, but like, this is another thing that I think could be an angle for why you would push somebody towards buying three months at a time. Like, I bet there's some studies out there that say, yeah, when you take saffron for a week, you get this effect. If you take it consistently for three months, you get this effect and it's bigger because a lot of these are like kind of cumulative over time.

1:01:37So anyway, there's some really interesting stuff there that I think we can, we can use, but. Well, I think also, you know, you look at why kids aren't sleeping these days, right. On, on screen time all day long, overstimulated, whatever it might be. And so some of these ingredients actually help, you know, has been proven to help out with anxiety, anxiety, mood support. And you think about that winding down period, like that's, that's what's not happening with kids these days because they're on their screens. The blue light, as an example, let alone the light in our environment, LED lights in our homes.

1:02:14A lot of people have that energy efficient. And so, you know, for us, we pick these ingredients as much as we talk about it being a sleep aid, it's equally an anxiety aid, like, you know, and kids can't sleep because of that. And so if we look at that, that is another angle that we got to think about. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about with Cody and Matt is we talk about, you know, the sampler, the 10 pack. But if you think about it, we're gearing this towards families. A 28 pack for a family of four, that's a one week trial for all four people. Right. So, you know, it's not a lot if a family wants to try this out.

1:02:59They get seven days each, you know, for a family of four. Well, yeah, no, dude, I actually accept powerful is exactly what you're saying, Curtis. If, if you're saying, hey, this is something that when you can't sleep, you go and you make it, then I think it's going to be hard to make the economics work. If it's more like, hey, this is something that you get into the routine of taking every single night before you know if you can sleep or you can't sleep and getting your family doing it, then like that's a totally different kind of LTV.

1:03:30Matt Bertulli:uh yeah i think curtis that what mike's hitting on is it's like the sleep is all about habits right sean mentioned it you mentioned it so like having this as a daily like this is just a ritual right it's like every single night 30 minutes to an hour before bed small glass of water you take your winks and that's just like that's that's part of your sleep hygiene yeah right um i think what people don't realize is that one night of sleep can't be, you can't recoup your recovery or your sleep deficit with one good night's sleep. So you talk about, you know, um, you talk about sleep hygiene. This is like going to the gym just cause you didn't go to the gym for a week.

1:04:12You can't make it up in one day at the gym. Like it's a, there's a compounding effect here, not only with the ingredients like Mike mentioned, but just overall sleep deficit. You have one night of sleep. you're not recovering from one good night's sleep. And so you have to actually build the routine and the hygiene so that if you're sleeping six out of seven good nights in a week, if you have a bad sleep, those other six better be good. You know, it's not like, you know, you can't fill up the tank with one good night if you're on empty.

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1:05:24Matt Bertulli:I call that a no-brainer offer. If you are interested, go to richpanel.com slash demo, not for some generic demo, but to actually book a call and watch them build your actual support team. Curtis' point about like people will go through them pretty quickly. It's obviously great for our numbers if we can get a family on it. And, you know, Mike talked about that in the group chat of like, how can we really show people that like, hey, if the family sticks to it, it'll be better. we won't have data on that in the beginning but I think that'll be incredible but then also I think that helps it also stick as a habit because like I'll give an example like I have a almost four year old daughter and like my wife will give her gummies before bed just like you know nightly stuff and obviously kids at that age don't want to go to bed so they'll come up with anything and every night she remembers like no we can't go to bed yet we need these and so if you have like a family routine that there's like multiple people in on it's just so much easier to stick to so it'll be great for AOV.

1:06:13And I also think that would be really helpful to like have it be a habit. And then obviously like you need the whole family to sleep. So I think that'll be a big thing is like, how do we really get people in, in those helps, helps AOV and then we'll help make it a habit. And that's what we were thinking actually, like, you know, from a gift perspective, instead of a frother or something like that, like what, what could live in the bathroom? You know, honestly, like how could you have a stick pack in the bathroom or a little cup or, you know, with a little bedtime bestie, you know, on it, something that like makes it routine because the one thing that people do consistently is they brush their teeth before they go to bed.

1:06:49It's the one thing they do, you know, most people, it's like saying everybody washes their hands.

1:06:57Matt Bertulli:Yeah, look, we're about to find out guys. This is, I think this is like now where the rubber meets the road. And I think Cody, Cody said this great to me. He's like, this is basically going to be a marketing masterclass. Like we now have to execute at a very high level. I think that's true of all supplements, guys. I don't think that is just true for us. I think to win in these categories, you just need to be excellent. I'm confident that we'll be excellent. I'm like, we're going to put the reps in. Like I have a level of obsession that is unhealthy and I'm pretty sure Cody does too. We just, we have to have the best product.

1:07:31Like in the end, if you're, if you, we really do have a product that helps people to sleep and that the entire family can take. You do not need, like, think about it this way. This is really crazy. Like, let's say a family of four drinks this nightly. How much are they going to spend on it in a year?

1:07:49Matt Bertulli:Oh, man. Cody, what do you think that number would be? Based on the way we're thinking about revising. Let's say$150 a month. Yeah. Okay, so let's just say it's$1 ,800 a year per family, right? Okay, so I'm just going to do some math with us. the average consumable brand is probably going to get 4x revenue. Okay? Right. Right now. Okay. So how many, here's a question for you guys, because it's kind of counterintuitive. How many families do you think we need to drink this on like a, you know, that kind of a every night basis to be a hundred million dollar company? Just off the top of your head.

1:08:33If you say a A family of four that are drinking every night that are spending, you know,$1 ,500,$1 ,800 a year on this, 4X multiple on revenue, how many families? Matt, you say$50 ,000? $50 ,000 to$60 ,000. Curtis, what do you think? Yeah, I was going to say$30 ,000, but then Matt trumped it. Okay. Cody, what do you think? I'll say$20 ,000, but, you know, you know this, but you're going to have, like, those families will make up a large percent of your revenue, but it'll actually be a very small percent of your customers. Right. Right. $14 ,000. You need 14 ,000 hardcore families. And the only reason I'm doing this, and Cody, I'm sure you saw this in makeup, like everything's power laws, but I'm just kind of trying to illustrate a point that we tend to with e-commerce, we think about breadth, but all the value is in the depth.

1:09:18And like, if we can just have a product that's so good that 10 to 20 ,000 families swear by it, this is a nine figure company. And that's the motivating thing I would kind of end on is like, that's doable. For sure, that's doable. And it's the reason why we just got to make sure that regardless of on the acquisition side, if it's going to make any difference to add glycine or to do this or to do that, it matters on the retention side. And that that's where ultimately all the money is, all of the making the numbers work is going to be. So, yeah, you have a great product. Yeah. And the great thing is about sleep.

1:09:55I know there's a lot of challenges that we have, but it's a true pain. It's a true pain. And if, and the mom do like, if the mom's the buyer, she doesn't want her family going through that pain, you know, at all kids. It's a problem, you know, with anxiety and everything we talked about. And so who are those, you know, sleep, uh, I won't say the word, um, that are totally focused on sleep. You know, the moms that are, you know, extreme on routine, getting the kids to bed at seven, seven 30. Like we need those ones. We need the champions of sleep in every household. And we know them. Like, I'm sure you guys do.

1:10:33I can tell you three moms right now that were anal with their kid bedtime, focused, routine, you know, and would not waver on anything. There's some cultures that do it all the time. There's some other cultures and people that won't, you know, won't give an inch to bedtime routine, bedtime, like the timing of bedtime. And so to your point, Mike, like who are those 14 ,000 families that are, you know, really strict and disciplined with, you know, the desire and priority of sleep over everything else? Well, and the thing that it really frames is it really frames, you know, like, unfortunately, you can't just know who those people are.

1:11:14but it frames the way that you think about customer acquisition costs. Because obviously, like, what would you pay for a family that could drink 18, you know, $1 ,800 worth of this in a year? It's like, I would pay hundreds of dollars and feel great about selling and acquiring them for that. But unfortunately, you can't always get that dialed with your marketing. But it just kind of relativizes, like, what's fortunate, the thing that can make this work and that has to make this work is that the user value of the right customer, we don't need that many nominally, and the user value is so high that we can definitely pay whatever it costs to get them as long as there really are 20 ,000 families out there that'll love this stuff enough and get enough good results that they'll take it daily.

1:12:05Matt Bertulli:But I think that's, Mike, that's why I'm so happy that we did take the time and we did invest in the quality of the product and the quality of the ingredients with the claims because that is, everything you're saying is true, but it's hard to go get that if you don't have a product that works. That's right. And that's why I'm like, hey, if we can add glycine and it makes it a little bit better, if we can make it where the packets are a little bit easier to open, if we can make it where it makes the stuff a little bit better, like, yeah, we gotta do all those things. Yeah. Obviously those things are the most important thing, extremely important.

1:12:36The other thing I'm really, really excited about, if I'm able to throw a little positivity in here, I was telling Matt yesterday, like there are so many angles and what is so important on paid social is these personas and having this like breadth of angles and like yeah zach stuck has done it really really well with with marsmen and finding different things there is not part of your life that is not ruined by bad sleep and so it's not just do you have bad sleep take this it's are you struggling to lose weight take this or do you have anxiety take this are you struggling at work do you have relationships and that's that's kind of what i've been encouraging you guys to look at cody is that I would break it down on these ingredients.

1:13:12We have the ingredient list that, and I think everybody has access to it, but I would actually, instead of going from sleep up, what I would do is I would start with each of these elemental ingredients and say, what are the five or six things that people use each of these things for? And what you're going to find is you have 30 different personas that are hit in some way by this product. And that sleep may be the front door. Sleep may be the primary one we use. I mean, because of the way we name the brand and the packaging, I think it probably has to be like the primary value prop to a lot of people.

1:13:43But the secondary persona stuff is, there's a lot of different angles. We're going to be a$200 CAC after 30 days, not 800. That's my challenge. I think we can get to$200 CAC. Maybe 250. If you can get to 200 to 250 and you're getting moms, then we probably are there, is my guess. Now, it's like, again, this is like if we're selling to single people and if our mix isn't very good, then that may not be good enough. I think that that's the thing we don't know right off the bat. We'll see. But I mean, that would be awesome.

1:14:18Matt Bertulli:I think Cody and I have been talking to Jordan and Zach, and they have a very different opinion on what Sean is saying. Well, I think what Sean is, is Sean's in basically electrolytes, even though Gutsy has fiber. And like the way that I think about it is no matter how gifted the entrepreneur is, you walk into a market and you have to kind of say there's a lot of established dynamics and competitors and I have to kind of play the hand that's dealt me. I could not run the Winx playbook and electrolytes. I could not go at the price points that some people, you know, like I don't personally have the skill set to be able to say, here's how we're going to sell electrolytes at$1.50 or$2 a stick.

1:15:04But when I walked into the category, that particular category, I was like, if I can sell it at 50 to 75 cents a stick, I think I actually do know how to make this an awesome success. And so like to some extent, it really does matter what are the market dynamics. and I think that that's part of the reason why Gutsy's been really hard for Sean is that the electrolyte market dynamics are very very challenging and there's not a lot of white space but I think sleep as we've said like there's just a lot more white space with sleep and and like as an example my my daughter was you know she was the lead in this in this huge production of Annie so she was doing these full days and she really had to sleep and there were like 20 days where like to help her sleep my wife was giving her these ollie melatonin gummies but But by the end, my daughter's like, I want another gummy.

1:15:50And she's like, you can't have them. We can't have you taking melatonin every night because the research is pretty clear. And she's like, well, what should I take? And it's like, I don't know, Benadryl? It just shows the lack of options from personal experience that there is no like, hey, here's the thing you can take every night and it's fine. And as a parent, I don't have to worry about this disrupting you.

1:16:14Matt Bertulli:Yeah, dude, melatonin is the devil. We know that now. It's useful for like, certainly for traveling to Europe. Certainly for kids it is. Yeah, it's not great for kids. It's like, it's definitely not great for kids. And kids are one of the groups that have the hardest time sleeping. Yeah. And it's just like, if you're not, it's a tool, right? You know, you're going to go to Europe. You're going to disrupt your circadian rhythm by nine hours. Like, great. Melatonin can help you. If you're at home, you should not be dependent on that. Like it just, all the science is saying you should really not.

1:16:44Matt Bertulli:You should try everything you can to not be dependent on melatonin. You have a natural sleep agent and that agent teaches your body on when to go to sleep, when to wind down, how to shift your hormones, you name it. And melatonin hijacks that agent. So if you want someone to hijack your sleep or your circadian rhythm, sorry, not your sleep, circadian rhythm every night, it literally removes the natural, the body's natural ability to sleep. so the only to matt's point like you know you're traveling to europe your circadian rhythm out of whack you need to get back on track or get back onto some you know unique time zone it's a different story but at home you know daily stress daily issues you name it melatonin you don't want someone come and hijack your you know your natural sleep agent it's almost like could we could we have like a clean sleep versus dirty sleep kind of like angle where it's like what what you're saying, Curtis, you know, where it's like a lot of people are basically there to try and make their sleep better.

1:17:41They're, they're using all of these dirty ingredients that are just like jacking up their bodies and all these other ways. Well, and I think about this bedtime bestie, right? Why don't we have a hijacker, call him the melatonin hijacker or something like that. You know, it's, it's like, cause that's what he's doing. And so, you know, to your point, Mike, I want to go back to how we actually position this product from more than just sleep. Obviously, it says right on the packaging, your bedtime bestie, sleep aid, you name it. We're in a category that most people are using. If they're not using melatonin, they're using cannabis gummies, or they're using, hopefully not for kids, but Benadryl or some other product that's going to just zonk them out.

1:18:29But there's a lot of benefits to these ingredients. I just threw it in chat actually when we were talking. And it is amazing. I mean, this is why we designed it and included a lot of these ingredients because of the mood, the anxiety, the brain health. Like L-thianine is phenomenal for brain health. And what sleep does is a moment in time where, you know, whether it's eight, 10, 12 hours, hopefully, you know, more than five, that your body, that's your body's time to recover. and that that's not just the mind that is your muscles that is your brain that is your gut that is your you know everything like every organ in the body every function in your body is is sleep is designed to actually recover and you know there's a reason why you should wake up in the morning and have a full eight ounce glass of water is because your body has just gone through eight to ten hours of dehydration but the reason why i say this is that it's it's almost like the position is, do you want to sleep better, but also recover better?

1:19:29Like you're actually equipping your body to like rejuvenate through the night. And a lot of people think, okay, I'm just shutting my eyes and, you know, calming the mind down for eight hours, but it's like, everything is rejuvenating. Everything, our cells are rejuvenating throughout the night. And so it's like, there's a lot of benefit. If you look at the ingredient profile, and once again, all I did is I actually just took a picture while we were sitting here through and chat and say, Hey, tell me about these ingredients and the benefits. And it's, you know, it just blew up that it's way, it's very extensive and it's way more than just sleep, you know?

1:20:05I think it's a great point, Curtis. And I think kind of an observation I would make that I think we're going to be able to really mark it off of is that we don't have to convince people that sleep's important. I think just kind of in the cultural trade winds, that is very understood. And there's probably more tracking of sleep, deep sleep, REM than ever before. But most people still don't really understand anything beyond that. I should get sleep. And there's these different types of sleep. And that's kind of all I know about it. And so the opportunity there is that we are able to actually step in as an expert and explain it to people.

1:20:49And like, if we can do that, we can position ourselves as like the sleep experts where we're actually educating people about what's going on. I think that that adds a ton of credibility to the product. And it creates a lot of really interesting opportunities for follow-up emails, Cody, like that really, if you can explain what is going on in your body during sleep and how it leads to you having a better life in very simple and understandable ways. I'm even imagining like you're, you know, you're incorporating this guy and you're making some animated things with AI that just are like these little short 30 or 45 second videos that are just explaining different things that are going on in your body and why this particular ingredient makes that go better.

1:21:36Like there's a lot of opportunity there. And so like a lot of this, maybe some of this is on more of like the kind of lifetime with a customer, how you're just gradually building credibility every single month. Maybe some of this is on part of that initial offer and like, you know, whether it's an ebook or videos, you know, whatever else, I don't know. But I do love the positioning of like what you're really trying to do is when you wake up the next morning, your body is in a great place. That's really the outcome you're trying to get. You're not trying to get a quantity of number of hours of sleep.

1:22:08You're not getting trying to get a quantity of number of REM hours, what you're trying to do is that like, I get the most my every day, I have to go to sleep. And then the next day, I'm going to wake up. And what you hope is when I wake up, that I'm actually my best self. And our product is going to help you do that. So yeah, maybe it will. Go ahead. Yeah, I think also, you know, think about supplements, right? You take a pre-workout before you work out, and you post, you know, some sort of post-workout, whether it's a protein or, you know, something after the fact. I think we have to look at this going, this is your pre and post all in one.

1:22:46Like you're preparing your body to go to sleep, but you're also fueling it for the eight hours it's sleeping to accelerate recovery. Like that's what you're doing. You're like, so even if you sleep well, it doesn't mean you actually have all the supplements to actually optimize recovery while you sleep. So like, I think what we have to do is we have to get into position where like, yeah, sleep might be the problem for sure. Might be the main reason why you initially buy this. But it doesn't mean you stop when you start sleeping well because you actually can feel your body before you go to sleep to accelerate brain health recovery, gut health recovery, like mood recovery, like all of these things, nervous system recovery, like your nervous system, yes, obviously sleep is the number one thing to help out with the under-regulated or over-regulated nervous system, but you can actually fuel your body before you go to sleep to accelerate so many other things.

1:23:42So this is kind of like the pre-workout, the pre-workout is preparing your body to sleep. The post-workout is essentially fueling your body. So you get pre and post right before you go to bed and you're optimizing that eight hours. So I think we have to remind people that this isn't just taken just because you can't sleep. This is taken every night before bed to accelerate recovery while you sleep. I'm really excited about it. And I think I'm very optimistic for that reason. That like, you guys are great at this and I'm gonna be excited to learn. Cody, let's go. Let's do it. We got our work cut out for us.

1:24:21$200 CAC, here we come. Yeah,$200. Well, I'm saying month one. We're 20 ,000 for raving families. Month one, 200 bucks, yes. That's a goal. Great talk, guys. I'm getting really fired up. All right, boys. That's the pod.