152: Protests, Placards, Palestine and Private Eye

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1:00Page 94, The Private Eye Podcast.

1:29so much at the moment, was all kick-started by a group called Palestine Action. Now a prescribed organisation, but until recently simply a direct protest group. Their direct protests on behalf of the Palestinian cause culminated at the start of July when some members of the group broke into an RAF base and sprayed paint into the engines of two military aircraft which the group claimed were helping to refuel American and Israeli jets. Just a few days later, plans were announced to ban the group by the government and it is now categorized as a prescribed organization on roughly the same level as islamic state say when the government prescribed palestine action the home office minister dan jarvis said that that prescription quotes would not impinge on people's right to protest those who wish to protest or express support for palestine have always been able to and can continue to do so that has not been strictly true dozens of people have been arrested not only for holding placards supporting Palestine Action, but many more for holding placards which were not about the group Palestine Action, were simply in support of the Palestinian cause.

2:37And recently, one man in West Yorkshire was arrested for holding a placard which, although it mentioned the words Palestine and Action, was not a placard supporting the group, and we can say that for sure because it was a joke from the last issue of Private Eye. John Farley, a retired headteacher from Yorkshire, had printed out the joke, which he thought made a good point. he put it on a placard and promptly found himself arrested by the West Yorkshire police. He was bundled into a police van, he was driven to the nearest police station where he was held for about six hours. He eventually got a solicitor and was interviewed by counter-terror police before eventually being released on bail pending any charges.

3:13Charges which were not eventually brought. And it's a good thing that Mr Farley is still at liberty because it means he is free to join us now. John, hello. Hi there. So John, you went on this march. Was it a Palestine Action March or was it simply a pro-Palestine March? No, it wasn't Palestine Action. It's organised by Leeds branch of Palestine Solidarity Campaign. They've been doing them almost continuously since the situation started. And I've been on quite a few. I've not been on all of them, you know, but I've been on quite a few. So you went on this march. You had a placard with you. we should say at the start of things that it was a joke from private eye can you just tell us what the joke was please yes i can it it said at the top in quotes palestine action explained and then underneath it had in sort of on red background unacceptable palestine action spraying military planes with paint the other bit in green it said acceptable palestine action shooting palestinians queuing for food and i should add actually underneath i put copyright symbol private eye number 1653 and that was really the thing the punch line if you like for it because the march was about the denial of food aid too that was the theme it was a silent march and that was the theme of it.

4:40Can you tell us in your own words what happened on the day? It was a silent march which we sometimes do so it was very solemn you know and people were carrying boxes to symbolise the aid that's been denied into Gaza. So I'm holding stuff and I passed serious policemen on the way and then there was more than we were more than halfway around and I saw two officers on the side and they just saw me and made a beeline straight to me and I thought they must have good eyesight because, you know, I wasn't that near them. But they said, can we have a word with you? And I said, well, can you come to the pavement and have a word with me?

5:18And I said, well, we can have a word here if you like. And they said, no. So then they just grabbed me by the arms, took me to the pavement. And I'm not quite sure how, but some I ended up sitting on the pavement. I think I went a bit limp as they dragged me over. and they said it's about the placard and I went oh I said I brought the private eye with me because I thought possibly somebody might say something to me so I said it's in my rucksack I couldn't show you private eye and at that point I realised that I had a handcuff on one hand and they were saying you're under arrest under section 12 of the terrorism act I thought they might say something to me first wow but they just yeah and I was a bit surprised so then they said you're resisting I said I'm not and he said but your arms are tense and I thought to myself I feel pretty tense I've just been dragged to the pavement by two cops you know anyway they put the handcuffs on and they said will you walk to the van so I said well I will if you take the handcuffs off let me show you the magazine and you can see where it's coming And I kept saying, it's a cartoon from Private Eye.

6:35And eventually people stood around me. They heard that and went, it's a cartoon from Private Eye. It's a cartoon. So it went on like this. No, they weren't interested. And as I did suggest before, I don't know, but I think they weren't readers and they may not have heard of it. They're lost. They're lost. I was in shock, to be honest. It was really only when I got in the van, I thought, crikey so you were so i presume driven off from the protest yeah uh yeah they people sort of surrounded the van and that but obviously they they took me away and then lying back in the uh van i was on the floor i said to them they said to what's your name and it was beginning to sink in then and i said well look take the handcuffs off because i thought i'm in the van i'm not I got two burly coppers, you know.

7:29And I'll show you the... No. And then, so he found my bus pass, and he said, oh, you're Alan Farley. Because before that, he said, well, if you don't tell me your name, what can I call you? And I said, call me sir. And I'll be... Seemed reasonable enough. But he didn't like that. So by this stage, I thought, well, you know, I better not say anything else now. And then I got booked in. I was feeling a bit stroppy by then. So they said things like, are you vulnerable? Do you feel vulnerable? And I said, yes, I do. And they looked at me a bit surprised. I said, well, I'm in a police station and, you know.

8:07I presume this is your first arrest. Yes. Right. They give you cards out with a solicitor's number on the demo, which I've had in my pocket and I've never used, obviously. And they said, it's better not to use the duty solicitor. You get them to ring this one. could I find this card? No. And I accused falsely, I apologise to where she was, I falsely accused you of throwing it away. In fact, it was tucked into my phone case all the time I found it upon release. But luckily I could remember the name and they said, oh yes, we know them, we can call them. And I could just about remember my wife's phone number.

8:44So I asked them to call her and they never did, to be fair. But she was also on a march but elsewhere. So she was one of the last people to find out that I'd been arrested. So then they said, do you want to read the police and criminal evidence guidance? And I thought, I don't know how long I'm going to be in there and they won't let me take my copy of Private Eye. So I said, yes. So I've read most of West Yorkshire's guidance. They took my fingerprints, they took DNA swabs. Then I got a call from the solicitor via the intercom, which was hard to make out, but she said, don't worry, I'll be there fairly soon.

9:23And I asked, could she ring my wife? And she took the number and she did ring my wife. I had a cup of tea. I gave me a cup of water. I had a fairly horrible heated up meal. How long were you held all in? Just over six hours, I think. I was arrested just before two and I got out about eight. Oh, and I got to see a nurse while I was in as well. Because I'd asked my medication, I'm mildly asthmatic and I'd ask my medication because in a stressful situation it can be a bit worse, you know. Which somebody got and brought down to the police station and I got to see a nurse, very friendly nurse, a paramedic, NHS.

10:02And one of the things she did was take my blood pressure and I said, oh, I'm going to see my doctors about that this week. And she said, well, you can tell them your blood pressure's fine. Ah, even under trying circumstances. Yes, exactly. I thought that was an un... Yeah, I said, well, that's one positive that's come out of today, you know. Then the solicitor came, we had a brief chat. She said, look, I advise you just no comment on their questions because if we're going to have a debate, we'll have it in court. They asked me all sorts of questions. I mean, one of the questions, I can't remember what it was, but he sort of, I rolled my eyes as he said it, and he sort of looked a bit apologetic and said, I know, but we do have to ask these questions.

10:42I'm sure you understand. Is this questions about whether you were a member of Palestine Action? or a member of a prescribed organisation? No, they asked me if I... They said, do you support Palestine Action Service? I said, no comment. Well, I might have just said no to that one. And then they said, did someone force you to carry this placard? Did you make it? Did somebody else make it? And one of them said, this is the counter-terrorism police, they said, I see the advert in the magazine was very small. And I thought, advert? I thought, what's going on? Anyway, I said, he said, did you blow it up?

11:18And I thought, you're counter-terrorism police. Don't say things like that to me. That's a very leading question to ask, yeah. You must have done, otherwise your placard would have been one inch square. Well, exactly, yes. So, through that interview I began, I thought, are they taking this that seriously? I wonder if they are. You know, the solicitors felt quite confident. She said, I think, you know, she said, don't know, but, you know, quite a strong case. Okay, so eventually you were released without charge? Yes. Well, no, I was released on bail, charges going pending. They said they were going to send my file to the CPS.

11:56I hadn't committed an offence, and they must have been beginning to think, you know, what's in this? And my bail condition said I wasn't to go on any Palestine action demos or protests. And I said to the solicitor, I wasn't on a Palestine action protest, and I've never been on one. and in any case aren't they illegal so at this point john i probably have an apology to make to you um because it was actually me who wrote that joke for private eye and i i did not think it would have a result because the classic result of writing a joke for the mag is nothing nothing happens at all uh and so it wasn't our intention to get anyone banged up uh particularly not if they haven't done anything wrong so i'm very sorry about that well it's not your fault i saw it and i I did think that will make a good placard, not least because it's different from the standard ones that are handed out, you know, the same old, same old.

12:53Everybody's heard the same stuff before. And I thought this is a clever and nuanced take, but makes the point really well. You know, good old private eye. It'll have been through the lawyers. What could go wrong, I thought. So did you know about Palestine action before? Did you know that this group had been prescribed? I'm sure you keep up with the issue in general. I'd heard of them and yes and I was aware of the prescription so okay you know and I I knew I didn't want to do what other people have done and gone out and saying they support them but when I could say I saw that and I thought that uses that phrase but in a different way to make the point about people are being shot queuing for food um we're going to be talking a bit later on in the podcast um with the with the i team about freedom of speech heavy-handed policing all of this kind of thing i mean in your opinion do you think what happened to you was simply really clumsy policing or do you think it kind of indicates a general problem with freedom of speech at the moment in the uk i'd say a bit of both i mean they were clumsy because they didn't give me any chance to explain the solicitor said to me later they didn't even give you what words of advice i believe is the phrase but they chose to arrest me somebody showed me a video that had been taken there's people who follow us around videoing us and they post them and it showed the van driving around parking up they walked out stood to the side and then as soon as I came by they would come straight out for me so I think they'd already seen this I don't know I presume they'd seen the sign at some point they thought right we're going to arrest him so yeah I think it was clumsy but also they weren't I think right we need to get off the street straight away sort of thing I wasn't thinking I'd get arrested I thought they might say I thought perhaps they'll say something somebody a friend said to me oh you sure about that I said it's worse being in private eye you know so I wasn't completely oblivious to it but I thought at the worst they'd say you can't carry it you know or whatever you know and I'd have just said alright you have it then you know.

14:59As it turns out stuff being printed in private eye is not a guarantee that you won't be sued over it as the magazines found out to its cost many times that's true very dangerous very dangerous idea um so part of this was shutting down the use of those words on any placards whatsoever no matter what the context was what happened next did it work has this absolutely been chilled and shut down and the words have never appeared again on a placard quite the opposite well on monday they rang me at 10 30 and said, no further action's being taken. Okay. I said, and they said, would you like that? Emailed her and write.

15:35I said, write to me. Well, I've had the letter saying that. Although it says they still reserve the right to investigate further. But no, quite the opposite. Last Saturday, we had another march. And I reckon there was a double the number of people there. My son came along. Friends I hadn't seen for ages came along. And then as we were going around, I thought, that looks familiar. and it turned out somebody had made about 50 copies of the placard that I had and were carrying around. And, you know, and I thought, I mean, somebody had one hanging from his carrier bag. I thought that was very casual.

16:13And there was one person, he had one, and he was walking along and he left the march and he'd walk up to a policeman and stand next to them. And at the end, somebody was collecting him in and some police said, oh, can I keep it? so there's probably a few hanging up in people's houses somewhere so yeah no it's had the opposite effect and a lot I've had so many messages in fact an old friend who I hadn't seen well since the 80s he sent me a message he found me on twitter or x and sent me a message and said he we were at school together and he said I'm having a birthday party on Saturday next Saturday in London, can you come down?

16:53So I am. So it's worked in his friends reunited. So there you go. There you go. If you want to connect with an old friend, just pick up your copy of Private Eye, find the most inflammatory drug you can, and print it out. Terrific. Thank you so much for speaking to us, John. That's my pleasure. This January, Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship takes over the ocean. The inaugural Brews Cruise sails from Miami to the Bahamas Aboard the Norwegian Jewel Three straight days with pool deck bare knuckle fights in the Caribbean Massive parties, beach events, DJs, cigars, tequila tastings and non-stop action The lineup reveals coming soon Cabins are disappearing fast and the prices won't stay this low Reserve your spot with just$200 down at BKFSEA.com At QVC, fall shopping is more than just checking out.

17:50It's discovering the brands you love across beauty, fashion, home, and culinary, all in one place. Whether you're getting ready for crisp mornings, cozy nights, or everyday moments, QVC has what you need for the season ahead. With brands like Laura Geller, Philosophy, Ninja, and so many more. Shop now at QVC.com. So, now for the second half of the show. I'm still in the private office, but I'm joined now by Helen Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop. And this is going to be our summer free speech special. Very exciting. Something to listen to on the beach. so um yes palestine action was prescribed interesting little bonus info for you here on the same day as the maniacs murder cult and the russia imperial movement which are two neo-nazi groups so palestine action is classified as a terrorist organization which is i think an interesting conflation of a a protest group and a terror group so the nature and scale of a group's activities i believe have to be taken into account before you prescribe it and most of palestine actions had been marches, protests, that kind of thing, rather than breaking into places.

19:01Does this follow climate groups as well, like Extinction Rebellion getting designations as targeted groups? It certainly follows very heavy sentences being dished out to members of climate groups which have taken direct action. That is true. But what's also true is that presumably breaking into a military base and damaging planes is also covered by existing criminal laws isn't it i believe it is yes and this was the argument um inside government before they they rushed to do this and there were voices saying don't do this in a hurry it may end up making you look ridiculous and before private i had written this joke we had written a number of pieces saying if you're going to do this um surely it's covered by criminal damage there are ways of prosecuting people if that's what you want to do without making them a terrorist group and also without making people who support any sort of action about Palestine into supporters.

19:59It was obviously going to conflate things that would lead to misunderstandings and in this case the arrest of poor John. And it's also crazy to leave those decisions at an operational level at actual demonstrations isn't it because I mean there are many difficult things that that coppers on the beat have to do. Possibly passing private eye jokes and deciding whether or not they're offensive or funny shouldn't really be one of those should they i mean it just strikes me as a really really badly drafted at all like a lot of these kind of knee-jerk things that come in in haste i'm thinking also the dangerous dogs act and that came in and suddenly police were having to make decisions on what breed a dog was you know when they're not strained up by the kennel club take the time to uh to make these things specific i'm still in shock over the fact the police officer who made the arrest didn't know what private eye was which is um you know uh a really shocking thing in the modern world.

20:48He should be in prison, is what you're saying. No, it's a deep failure. Mr Farley said that he kept saying, look, can I just get my copy of Private Eye out of my rucksack? But if you've just arrested someone on a potential terror charge, and they keep saying, can I go and get something from my bag to show you? Yeah, fair point. They didn't go for that for some reason. So Ian, is this just badly drafted law than having its inevitable consequence on the streets yes if you're told um to take some sort of i hate to say the word action um uh when demonstrations happen and it's really unclear what you're meant to do then ridiculous things will happen and this is both absurd and also i mean he spent six hours in custody um you know he was he was put on the ground and cuffed it's not nothing and the freedom of speech issue is something that's important at the moment and we get it every which way at private eye nearly all the time there's someone who wants to ban a joke from the last issue or a piece from the last issue or says why do you never write about anti-semitism when we've written three pieces about it in that issue or why do you accept that we need a new blasphemy law with islamophobia which we didn't do and there are concerns there You have to, I think, have what John called nuance here, and that's in the legislation.

22:16That can't be in the policing of it. I think it's a particularly difficult one because actually this is a subject on which Britain's politicians are, until now, have been actually slightly out of touch with popular opinion. So the kind of elite popular opinion about Israel's right to exist and being supportive and an ally to Benjamin Netanyahu, actually in the polling, the British public is a lot more sceptical of Israel, its government, its actions in Palestine and the Gaza Strip than our kind of political class has been. So I think that's a particularly dangerous time. Because we hear all the time about all politicians are so out of touch.

22:48This is a way in which people really feel that their voices weren't being heard. And now more than 250 MPs from across the parties have all signed a letter put together by Sarah Champion in calling for a Palestinian state. Now, to some extent, that's a symbolic question at this point in time. I don't believe we get to make the call. Right, exactly. Exactly. Since Mandate Palestine, it's not really up to us anymore. But nonetheless, it's a point about the fact that lots of MPs are constantly hearing from their constituents. And not just people with large numbers of Muslim constituents, although you'll note those people are really well represented in this.

23:20But across the political spectrum, people are feeling real unhappiness from people. It's not a kind of lefty, liberal, hand-wringing kind of concern, this one. And I think the realisation has dawned that there are protests in Israel. there are opposition newspapers in Israel written by Israelis which have been rather more strident than any press in Britain I think they're the last few days and you know a couple of really shocking pictures and videos have slightly changed the climate yeah so Benjamin Netanyahu has said there is quotes no starvation in Gaza and there is a lot of kind of trutherism around about some of the more high profile photos saying that one of the the babies who look really malnourished actually has a kind of muscular disorder.

24:04Nonetheless, you know, there are just so many reports from inside that aid has been having difficulties getting through. It's, you know, that the food cues, per your joke, are really violent and dangerous for people to get into. To the extent that Trump was asked about it this week in Turnberry, in his appearance with Keir Starmer, and he said, this is a classic Trump answer, from what I see on TV, a lot of people look hungry. That's how he does his policymaking. But, you know, and the fact is that Israel has declared an effective ceasefire and daylight hours in order to get aid to get through is the closest you'll ever get to a kind of concession that actually the situation had become intolerable you know one of my friends said they'd just seen the picture of that baby and gone home and hugged their own baby right i just think lots of people particularly parents see photos like that and it hits them really really viscerally i think you're right as well about the way that it's crossing the usual lines it isn't just the usual suspects um i was really interesting that one of the first papers to go big on those photos last week in the sort of live aid type presentation of we need to do something about this was the daily express which had a full page really really shocking picture of one of those emaciated children so you know it isn't just as you say you know lefty rebel rousers that are onto this one it is really crossing a lot of political lines well like alan kurdy the um syrian little boy who dry and coming off a boat you know that was across the media including right-wing papers who otherwise are very concerned about illegal boat crossings i think there is just a thing that people really don't like to see pictures of children suffering and you know you'd have to be even more out of touch than Donald Trump not to recognize that which is unfortunately turns out where Benjamin Netanyahu is right now.

25:34Right and also the Netanyahu line that Israel has the right to defend itself does not extend in most people's imaginations to starving children and that becomes an issue and when he says there's nothing I can do about this then decides yes there is something I can do about this because internationally this is getting a bit hot even for him then somehow there are ways of defending the convoys that come in there are ways to pause the fighting suddenly this problem is not insoluble and that I think is is a fairly major giveaway questions about free speech always end up coming down to questions about power right who are you allowed to criticize who are you which are groups necessarily treated the same and so you know this is something that I think you'd find traditionally left-wing Palestine protesters to say we're not being treated the same.

26:23At the same time, you'll get, there's big, big moves on the right to say things like the people who supported the riots last year, you know, have received unduly harsh sentences, you know, that they will say that you can't criticise immigration, you can't criticise small boats, these are clamped down on. I think all of these arguments end up to some extent becoming whataboutery, which goes back to your point, which is the idea that you just need to have some sort of broader principles, and the police need to be seen to applying them equally, not based on who is a favoured or disfavoured group to the police at that particular point in time.

26:55I think you're absolutely right. I mean, the kind of key one on that side is the case of Lucy Connolly, who was the woman who tweeted an incredibly offensive tweet at the time of those riots last summer. Well, she called for an asylum hostel to be set on fire, didn't she? Yeah, she said, set on fire, I don't care, burn the bastards for all I care. She did think better of it, but she had this slight misfortune that by that point it had been reposted 940 times and viewed 310 ,000 times. Which is one of those cases of where the line is between social media and just something you might say to a friend in a kind of hot-headed moment, isn't it?

27:27Because that went slightly beyond it. But she was, and this has become a sort of cause celebra in certain circles, she pleaded guilty to inciting racial hatred, but she was given what does seem to me like an incredibly harsh sentence, 31 months, which is way beyond some of the people who were actually physically involved in some of the violence out of those protests. But there's an odd line with that, because it's become such a cause, Celebra, on the right now that it's sort of the unfairness of the sentence has been kind of looked over into this more sort of it should be an absolute free-for-all and anyone should be allowed to say anything online.

27:57Yes, I mean, the argument has moved from is 31 months excessive to, well, she should have the right to say that. The traditional line is that we all believe in freedom of speech but that doesn't extend to shouting fire in a crowded theatre. But nowadays what people are shouting is let's set fire to the theatre which is slightly different and I would say the Connolly case does prove that. Can I ask I know this varies a lot internationally and I read one argument claiming that had Lucy Connolly written that tweet in America given that it did not call for a specific act of violence for example she would most likely not have been arrested charged imprisoned so is this I mean is there a difference between saying I would like this particular person to be attacked and saying, oh, burn the lot down for all I care?

28:46Well, again, I think this comes back to that initial point that we made about these guidelines need to be really, really carefully drafted. Because, I mean, I've read stuff by very eminent legal commentators saying actually, you know, according to the sentencing guidelines, this was completely... It went to the Court of Appeal who said that it wasn't manifestly unjust. It stands as a sentence. But in that case, maybe we do need to have a look at the sentencing guidelines on that thing, because that does seem a crazy situation where inciting violence gets a harsher sentence than committing violence itself.

29:13Yeah, and in Scotland, they wanted to go even further than that. They wanted an offensive stirring up hatred that you could be guilty or even in your own home, even in kind of Adam's example of saying it to your own family, which didn't ever go through. But that is definitely a force in political life at the moment, is that people do want more restrictions on speech. And look, I can see why. I think lots of people feel very worried about violence and harm. I know lots of Jewish people feel there's been a real uptick in anti-Semitism. and if you go on some of those Palestine marches I went on one now 18 months ago and the vast majority of people they were completely peaceful and making a legitimate political statement but there were also really grim vile signs that were slipped in amongst them and this again I think comes back to the how much can the police be expected to do that they always have to make a call when there are things that obviously cross the line about is it worth the ruck to go in and sort that out or are we actually going to that point does it tip into violence right they are making fine policing distinctions.

30:11And they were criticised on a number of those marches for not arresting people who had paraglider symbols on their back on the grounds that, well, we're not quite sure what that means. And then those people were subsequently arrested after public pressure and then were not given a custodial sentence. If you remember on the grounds that emotions were running high. We should say that paragliders being the ones that were used by Hamas in the October attacks on Israel. So it cuts both ways this why don't the police act usually because they're not quite sure or because as you said earlier they're worried about stirring up real trouble in which arresting people turns into something else.

30:54I mean all these points are appreciated but the essential principle is if people are committing an offence they should be arrested and if they're not they shouldn't. But that's inherent to the problem isn't it? I mean having covered the feminism wars for more than a decade the problem is when you give police the ability to make these distinctions they tend to err on the side of who is quite easy to arrest and right in front of me now rather than like dealing with mobile phone thefts or whatever so there have been some kind of really you know like people you know someone said at some point the suffragette ribbons were a threatening sign you know that there there is just this wildly over expansion of what constitutes threat you know there are people within labor who'd like to bring back blasphemy laws for example right as a kind of way of saying religious offense is also kind of a harm and at the same time you've got this much greater idea that speech can cause harm so there's just been two this is tangentially related two jewish comedians have just been had their bookings cancelled at the edmund fringe and one of the rationales given was the venue saying our staff are worried about being unsafe now this used to happen to feminist meetups all the time during the 2010s and the problem was it was essentially saying we're going to have protesters and we can't hack that.

32:04Back in 2020, I was supposed to be doing an event at the South Bank Women in the World Festival for difficult women. And on my panel were Amma Bwese, who had played netball for England, Aisha Hazarika, who's now in the Lords, and Julie Bindle, the feminist campaigner on lots of things, including grooming gangs and also gender. And I got a phone call from the venue two nights before saying the staff union has said that because Julie Bindle is going to be there, they don't feel safe. And I thought, is she going to like heck to you about if she doesn't like Panettone? That's about the worst thing that's going to happen.

32:33But it was, and they tried to, you know, essentially get me to cancel her on her behalf. And I said, well, look, if she walks, I walk. And I phoned the other two panellists and they said the same. And it went ahead. And guess what? We didn't even talk about trans stuff, which was obviously what was behind it, because the book isn't about that. But it was this sense that you could suddenly just get anything cancelled just by saying, it's a safety issue, it's a safety issue, it's a safety issue. And I think there has to be a certain level of robustness that people can be incredibly offensive up to the point of invoking really unpleasant stereotypes.