A.R. Rahman: The Genius Who Took Indian Music Global | Nikhil Kamath | People by WTF | Ep 15

31:49Which is an interesting thing now I think when you do music also. You're constantly thinking the songs which are coming out was very experimentative. Recently, there's a song by Ray, R-A-Y-E. And it cleanly shows that she's trying to beat AI. How is that? The way the construction of the song is different from what people would do. Which what AI copies, right? It's learned from the past. So you have to be contrarian to whatever the predictive model is. Absolutely. It forces us to think differently. Okay, now we've got that. Okay, how about this? But can't tomorrow another AI just play the role of a contrarian?

32:31Humans have this evolutionary spirit and we will do something else. We'll go back and do something which is completely wrong, which will be very cool. Does music have rules? Music, I feel… I go by nostalgia, I go by the good things of tradition. and sometimes I got bored with that and I break the tradition. So it's not one formula. It's like how a narrator, so like when I'm talking to you, if I talk anything boring, you won't look at me. I was like, oh, he's already told us. I'm going to look away. But I'm looking at you. I'm constantly evolving. I'm saying like, okay, let me tell you this stuff or let me tell you a new information which you're not.

33:19No, then you are curious about it. Music is like that. it's like a conversation where one is like this tune is going like this and I need to surprise them with this one pull out the rhythm or chain the key or chain the rhythm right chain the raga or come with the same lyric in a different way so it is an experience right that's how I used to think I'm still thinking the same way do you think to be as successful as you have been you need to catch a counter trend What is the counter-ten? Whenever the incumbent trend, like you said about old school music with Dholak and mandolin and all of that. No, I love Dholaks, but not all of us.

34:03But that's not the only thing. Right. Even now, when I do a Kavali track, I use Dholak and Tabla. I use strings. But to be able to recognize that people are tired of that. I am the people. I need to see whether I like the song. And if I feel good, this feels really good and they will love it. Sometimes it takes time for them to get it and they get it and then it stays there forever. And for all the aspiring musicians and songwriters and composers watching this, what do you think the next change in trend will be that they can get on early? I think all of them are so smart now. And because the exposure, they get to see everything on reels and social media.

34:50Every person is a makeup person, an actor, a cinematographer, a director. And it's fascinating to see how the younger people are evolving. Like I discovered so many people who are extraordinary in comedy, in direction, in effective reels. Like it's just 30 seconds and they have to come up with stuff. And it forces them to become great directors, storytellers. And so I get inspired by them. Yeah. But any suggestions? Just lean into it. Leaning into something, not giving up. Like, you shouldn't give up. You should go back to music and lean into it. I'll show you how bad I am at some point. No, bad and good is subjective.

35:31It's subjective. Right. One person is bad, the other person is good. Like, you know good music when you listen to it. I'm good at listening to music. That's good. That's a great start. That's a great start. Right. That's how it is. Right. Just don't give up. Because, you know, you dig. like the cliche is like first you get mud and then you get water then you get petrol then you get gold but you have to keep digging and the more you dig you will forget yourself that you'll become that right how do I okay this is very personal I don't know how this will help but I can play a few chords I don't sing well now I want to suddenly get better not suddenly in a year get better how do I do it?

36:14just practice practice yeah don't wait for tomorrow to practice. Practice now. Once you go, after you eat, sit for five minutes, take your tampura, sing Sarigamha Padanesha. Slowly. I've heard it all my life. I don't know why it flew. I have to tell you a secret. I'm singing from 92. But then my singing was always to compose. I'll play a chord and compose. Then I realized that when I'm composing, I don't have to be in tune. I just need to understand what tune. When that becomes a habit, your singing becomes more not that perfect because you're trying to reach notes and you're trying to like scribbling something rather than painting, sketching something.

37:01Then when I'm on the stage is when I realize like I have to be in tune because people are recording, people are putting it on YouTube. Then I started my teacher said Gulam Sarghan Sam who passed away So he said, practice your lower notes. Like, go saanidha. Make it stronger. And your higher notes will be as strong as that. So, and now I'm learning a little bit from Ajayda. Ajay Chakravati. And his thing is like, go louder when you go down. And that made a lot of difference in my pitch. When I'm singing a note longer, I could feel that I'm in pitch. And when I look at some of the reels, I'm like, yeah, okay, that's good.

37:43That's good. 20 % improvement from what I was doing before. Right. So there's no time, no age. Right. We are constantly evolving in every aspect of it. Yeah. Maybe I'll try and get a teacher. That's a great idea. Right. And Bombay is filled with teachers. Yeah? Yeah. Do you think there's such a thing as talent in music? There is. Some people understand something better than other people. Because it comes the way the mind works. It doesn't mean that other people can't reach there. Right? I have this theory about passion. Okay. I feel like all people are born the same. And we all attempt different things.

38:25If I was five years old and I played cricket, and I played cricket better than the 20 classmates of mine, I would organically become passionate at cricket. Because I'm doing it better than the 20 kids around me. Do you think the same is true for music? No. When I was young, I felt I was very bad at music. Yeah? I had stalwarts like Madeline Srinivas, who was a genius. He was younger than me. He was playing Kirtana. I said, I'm not as good as that. And I was seeing my teacher's son playing piano, who was younger than me. But I was forced to work anyway. So my needed talent was less, because I used to play some sound effect or some simple melodies.

39:06And I met a teacher called Jacob John. It was my father's friend. he called me and said you play very well I said no I don't play very well and he had this amazing technique he would wantonly play with mistakes and he would let you play see you are playing better than me so he had this incredible technique of trick to make you feel better and I hung out with him like three four years it was one of some of the best times I had I must also say you look incredibly young for your age like skin is glowing and all that my software is very very latest but hardware is becoming old any secrets secrets just don't think negative stuff don't worry about anything nobody cares we all gonna die so all this happened okay yeah and then I have like notes about different years of your life and what happened and I'm trying to like go into today you did Andrew Lloyd Webber Dil Se happened Vande Mataram India at 50 Matu Jai Salaam all of that happened we come to 2006 what's happening around this era?

40:20you started in 90s because of the studio when you started a studio you got this big break in Roja your life changed overnight people around you started treating you like something else you got a little imposter complex and insecure about putting all your eggs in one basket because you had seen it happen at home at an early age. You diversified, you continued to do many things. You went to Andrew Lloyd Webber's thing. You did things outside of India, in India. Tell us where your mind is at 2006, 7, 8, around this era. Global slowdown era. So 2006, I was appointed as the top TB ambassador by UN.

41:00So I went, traveled to Singapore, met AIDS, TB patients and a very completely different role. I met Kofi Annan in the UN, all that stuff. And then that's when my foundation, idea of foundation came by. And by this time you were a big deal because you're meeting them. I don't know. 100%. Yeah, I don't. So I meet them. I come back with a vision of like, why don't we have a school? Like, you know, all these musicians are my father's age now and what if they pass and we don't have string players or trumpet players. So the idea of starting the school came in 2008. I called one of my associates and said, Hey, we have to start a school.

41:44It's a free school. He said, no, no, no. Free school nobody is going to respect. You have to get money and I'll take care of it. So I didn't know anything. So I called him and he took care of it. And then there's so many conflicts. So many conflicts happening. It evolved and then finally we bought a bigger place. Mr. Ambani came and finally inaugurated the place in 2013. My mother was there. And we started the game conservatory where it is now in Chennai. By then we had some of the best piano players in the world. Young and once. And then it started evolving. And then Oscars happened, all this stuff, in 2008, 2009.

42:27I was in a band with Mick Jagger. How big is that? I've always heard of Oscars. as being like this crazy-ass thing that… What is it actually? I think when you see from outside, it's much more fascinating than being inside. Inside is just… It's like an award function. It's happening, yeah. It's like, you know, once you pass one, then everything's the same. Same photographs are coming. Hey, AR, look here. So that's interesting. First, when I got the Critics Award, nobody called me. Then was the Golden Globe. hey that's you come let's take a photograph three people call then the next one is Oscar you know 100 people calling your name so that I could see that whole evolution of how famous that movie and about the music and you're all becoming the same how does it make you feel personally like now I'm guessing wherever you are like people are probably like surrounding you and asking you for this and that and pictures no actually I have a lot of private moments in the studio no when you're at home Yes, but if you step out.

43:32I step out very rarely. But whenever you do. I'm prepared for it. When I'm very uncomfortable is when you take a long 16-hour flight and you're in a transit. When people come in and they say, I'm tired. No, no, no, but we have to go. Can you take a photograph? Anyway, it's part of the game. Is there an on-off button? For what? For when some fan walks up to you and you're tired, you're in transit. Yeah, it is. But rarely. It's not every day. So now I have the mask. They recognize you with the mask? No. No? Not everyone. Because I don't go with securities. I just go walk alone. No security anywhere?

44:15Only when I'm doing shows. Right. Because when you don't go with security, people don't take you seriously. Only when like a group of six people come over, somebody is important. Oh, that should be him. So… When you go to dinner in Chennai, for example. you have to that is the irony of my life you can't that's actually took a toll on my family life when nobody allows you to eat even in a marriage when you go there when you're eating people say can I take a photograph I'm eating no but we are going to go we have to go so they don't understand that person is eating he's a human being he's not being bought by you but then you understand that how important you are in their life and they don't want to miss the chance to take their perspective.

45:01So I'd never eaten marriage. I'd just go wish them. I said, they won't allow. Whenever I've worked with rock stars abroad, they're just straight on the face and I don't do that, sorry. Whether it's Hollywood actor or I've been with a couple of them and they're straight on the face. That's why people don't come because most of them are like that. They just snap and say, no, I don't do that. Straight away. Indian actors are more kind. Why is that? I think because we are a different race. We did a call with your sister. And she gave us some points. Which one? Rehanna? Yeah, I think so. Okay. You didn't have many friends growing up, she said.

45:47Yes, I had two friends actually. One was an electronic geek. We used to love making amplifiers. I still met him. The other one was also electronic geek. I was fascinated with electronics when I was young. Is it the same even now? Is it tough to be friends for somebody in your position? There's no time. Outside of time? Just even to spend time with family, I have to make sure that I now pull them on to a dinner or something where not everybody's free. They all have their own lives now. Do you have friends? All the directors are my friends. Work people don't count. I don't ever treat like work. I treat like when I work with Anand Rai or Emthia.

46:38People ask me this question and I say, who are your friends? I'll say lawyer, CA, all of that. It doesn't add up. It doesn't count. Then I should have a life where I go to a club. No, I go to a gym or something. Nothing? No hobbies? Sport, gym? No. Nothing? No. I love what I'm doing. I love, because it's not just music now. Now it's metahumans and AI and virtual reality. And, you know, I have younger people who are joining and doing amazing work. So they're my friends. I just eat with them, hang out with them. Each team is different. And, yeah. And I sometimes DM people. If there's a good person with a farm, interesting plantation thing, I DM them.

47:26Say, hey, I would like to meet you. Then, no, it's like random people. It's not just music. It is illustrators and cosplay artists sometimes. Anyone incredible you've run across like this by DMing them? By DM, I'm assuming social media. The most biggest surprise I got was Spike Lee DMing me. Hey, sir, how are you? Really? Yeah, I was doing COVID time. on what platform? On Instagram. You're active like that. You use it yourself? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Can I message you? Of course. Yeah? But I don't pick everything. I see sometimes people, I see some blue, oh, blue tick. What would be interesting for me to send you on Instagram that will make you be like, thanks Nikhil for sending me?

48:07I have this investor who's got$1 billion to invest in my company. That'll be immediately I'll answer. Yeah. You went to the US and met a bunch of AI people, right? Yeah. Some of them are my friends. And they mentioned it. You went to Perplexity. Who was the most interesting of them all? No, actually it's very, very brief. Sri Ram and Aarti came to my house. We hung out there. And I met Srinivasan, Perplexity. What did you make of him? I met Sam Altman. He's also from Chennai. What did you make of him? Yeah, he's very good. He's my son's friend more than me. Yeah? Yeah, they hang out. And Sam Altman.

48:48What did you make of Sam? Sam, strangely, he was the only person I followed on Twitter for a while. When Chad J.B.D. came in. And he was looking at the Secret Mount and he was fascinated, I think. He said, whatever help you guys need in technology. Right? But I think there's not just... Secret Mount is about fashion, merchandise, music, wisdom, entertainment. quite a lot of big package and pretty exhausting if we don't have a big team. So that's one of the reasons why we are like waiting for the big leave too, which is preparing all the groundwork on that one. When you hang out with those AI guys, I have ended up spending a reasonable amount of time with all of them.

49:40In fact, I have to go... My first comment with any AI person is, don't make people lose jobs.

49:55Empower people to remove the causes of generational causes, which comes to poverty, misinformation, and lack of tools to create stuff, to telling stories. Right? I think this is the, from the beginning, I was like a broken record just saying this. Because you don't... But how is that possible? That's... If you buy a gun, you've set rules, right? You don't give it to everyone. Because they want to shoot everybody. They want to kill people. It's not free to use. It has restrictions. Like a calcary... No, you're not shooting people. But you can pull the carpet off, make them jobless. It's like making families going into poverty.

50:35So it is the rules. Humans have to set the rules. You have traffic rules. You have immigration rules. While it might kill jobs in the short term, one can argue that productivity in a society will go up in the long term. You have to shape it up in saying, you can't give a tool which is very, very destructive in making a family go into debt. If somebody just learned something and now everything can be done with AI, he's going to be helpless because he's learned that in college for four years. he spent all his life learning something and AI can do it in two seconds. So we need to find an alternate way before you jump and give those tools to people.

51:18Very tough though. No, because Australia now has said like no person can learn use their data to learn stuff so that to create their identity. But the new AIs are learning of synthetic data. Let it do stuff which humans cannot rather than doing things which humans can do better. That's what I'm saying. So that's why I think art plays a very big tool. You need to make musical theatre, symphonies, and all the stuff which can entertain people. And they can be a part of that larger system, economic system. The problem with regulation around AI, in my opinion, is the incumbents will use it to not allow new people to come into AI.

52:05if there is a young kid in Bangalore trying to build an AI rapper albeit by virtue of regulation he will be regulated out of the market not that kind of regulation not in entertainment I'm saying in finding a way all the people running things entrepreneurs or the chief they should be careful in finding because this is history is going to talk about them in future like how they made something which is a monster as a blessing. It could become a monster. It's a blessing and a curse. I'm actually going back to the US. I've been there a lot this year. I've been like working, interning with these AI companies, trying to learn what is coming up next, what can be done.

52:51I'm going back on Friday. The reason is Shaked Mountain has also set a pattern where we use the best of AI and we use the best of humans. And there'll be so many jobs. There's so much of human contribution to something as big as this. So that it becomes an industry by itself. Right. AI in music will hurt musicians, right? It'll hurt. But then can AI go and sing with a guitar in a house or in a concert? Or can it teach in the human way which a teacher has been teaching with the spirit, passing on the spirit of music to her? student. There are so many things which comes. Human experience is the best word I would say which it can't do.

53:39Anything on TV could be generated now. Right? So I think that that's why live concerts, live dance, live musical theatre, symphonies will be respected even more. Right? The value of that is going to go. So in a way you're saying build more live experiences, businesses for young people who want to start a business. Because we all know locked in something called the flats, imprisoned in those little boxes. We can't even get out. So live actually gives, goes back to that community feeling where you enjoy something which the other person share, the experience, the joy. And that, like, that is also being reinvented now, live experiences now, the way visuals and everything is time coursing with augmented musical gadgets.

54:31visual gadgets. So the experience is not as like how we watched 10 years back. It's much more better now. When you work with people and you try and figure out what music should be put out, I'm guessing very often you know so much more about music than these people. I don't know anything. I go like a blank slate because... Like if a movie producer tells you, for example, say in Hollywood, that this is not working, can we change it? What do you do? Always change it. I don't go with one idea. I go with sometimes four ideas, five ideas. Then I throw out two of them. So I keep sometimes three. I play them.

55:14And sometimes you have an instinct to say, this is going to work. I put that somewhere I think they will connect to something. It's nice, but can you do this? Yeah, I'll add that. It's not a ready-made product which is given. That will never work. Somebody calls up, I do a song and send it to me. There are specifics about the story. characterization. Why wish they like? I was reading this book about Michelangelo. Like, artist, extraordinaire, all-time whatever. And he was like, once while he was sculpting David, a politician came to him and said, the nose is too big. So, what he did next is he just, he was on a scaffolding.

55:55He threw some dust down and he said he changed the nose but actually he didn't do anything. Okay. Exactly. A lot of that? Yeah, yeah. It happens. See, now it's correct and you don't know anything. It's just their ego. See, I've made it better. Sometimes.

56:16I was in Delhi a couple of days ago. And I was at a friend's house and I tried the new Meta glasses. Okay. It's coming? It's coming, yeah. Which have a… So, on the right side they have a display. and you have to wear a band and then you click like this and you scroll like this. For the first time, it's starting to feel like it could be the form factor. Do you have a bet on what could be the form factor of tomorrow? How you interact with AI? So I started researching on virtual reality around from 2015. So I directed my first VR movie in 2016. And I was fascinated because it's so real. It's so immersive.

57:06And it helps you to go to places which you've never been. Like the spaces. You can see spaces which Antarctica, you know, the Vatican, the Kaaba, the temple. Where people... It's so real, right? And I could probably look at one image for more than five minutes There's so many details, so much detail in it. So it fascinated. And then I said, why don't we do, I had a story and I said, why can't we do a movie in this? This is the path nobody's taking. It is a very difficult path. Lone Ranger taking it and walking. So I did Le Musque now. It's been almost nine years since I directed that one. It's playing in Singapore and it's playing in Vancouver Dome now.

57:53And you have to wear the VR glasses. In Vancouver, no, it's projected in the dome. Right. it's been translated to don't win so my primary job is of a stock investor so I used to follow meta now Facebook then stock for the duration that they attempted to put a lot of money behind the metaverse they would spend something like 8-9 billion dollars a year if I'm not wrong about the number and eventually they ditched it so does that, they didn't ditch it or they stopped the amount of money that was being spent on it. I think what happened was for making VR movies, you need to unlearn many things for content.

58:34So film people come and use their techniques to do virtual reality. It makes people throw up. So because I didn't have any experience in film, I could take the path of what I felt will be right for me. So like moving the camera would be like nausea, frame rate, global shutter, and what kind of experience would be great for a person who is a... It shouldn't be a replacement for cinema, but an alternate. coexisting, right? so what you don't get in cinema you'll get on this one in cinema you get the kind of community feel like you all whistle on the same thing you all or stack and look at the other person oh that's a great scene you know that you can't do in VR it's very personal you can't look at your Facebook, Twitter but you can have other people who are also in VR watching something with you no but this when you come to Chennai I'll play you my experience it's installed there you'll understand what I'm doing yeah so I have no agenda today I don't want to speak I want to speak about what you want to speak about.

59:43Let me speak about the Meta Band. Again, this idea came from when I was hanging out in LA after the Oscars, Grammys and all this stuff. I said, why are Indians not creating something for the West? Not the West, for the whole world, right? Because we've seen great bands coming from Sweden, America, England, Africa, but the only Indian was famous like Ravi Shankar, Zakharozen, Al Shankar, Subramaniam. But then why can't young India create something like that? Because we need to be ahead. We can't go back to what they did, but we need to find a space which India, what India wants to say to the world.

1:00:29So that's where Secret Mountain was created. and not just to sing Hindi songs or Tamil songs, but being a voice from India to the world. Not like an Indian voice, but an international voice. Right? So we've been working on it for three years. Can you simplify it for me? Like, I watched a bunch of videos of you talking about it. Yeah. I saw the characters who are the band members, the blonde guy, the Punjabi guy, all of them. and they all said that my proficiency is in A and B. Yeah, yeah. And we are a band. Yeah. But what does that mean really? It talks about each community, where they're coming from, like Africa, North India, South India, Ireland.

1:01:19She was the prettiest, the African. Yes. We made sure that we gave her the full respect. Especially Africa, Ireland, India, China. They have millions of stories to tell. But there's no conduit for that. But now, if they're virtual, they're now mentors for each character. So we're going like, this is what we want to say. Is it okay politically? This is the kind of lyrics which I couldn't come. And the lyricists, they're... I'm composing all this stuff, but then we have partners like, people like Ed Sheeran, they promised to write songs for this. He was hearing a couple of songs. I love this. I want to do something.

1:01:55So these are virtual characters. Virtual characters. You are the mentor for say one virtual character amongst… No, I'm the mentor for the whole band. For the whole band. All of my digital children. Right. And they will create songs? They won't create songs. So they're human people. Like in a movie, a James Bond movie comes in. James Bond is a character. People keep changing. But James Bond is constant. Superman is constant. Spider-Man is constant. So these people will be constant. Exactly. They'll be constant. Their voices might change. Because they're all live voices, right? Live musicians. Live musicians are going to play with it.

1:02:27So it's not AI-created content, composition or anything. It's all life. Though only the face of that. Right. They won't have flesh and blood. But what's going to appear on TV or in a show will be real. Because of the technology. Hologram. And why would this be better than, say, if Ed Sheeran is writing a song for one of those characters? Him singing it himself and having his face on it? because this is a multicultural band. They stand for the whole world. Yeah. There is no band like this. Either you see a K-pop band, we're all Koreans. An English band, they're all English. And very rarely you see this kind of eclectic, diverse band coming together.

1:03:15Right? And me being not in just one genre of stuff, and film music has taught me to be expansive. Right. Right? So I felt like, taking the burden on myself to see how much I can go dwell in it, making it pop. I'm not able to picture it. Do you think an audience will... I mean, the same premise, I guess, in a way applies to movies. Did you see the ABBA Voyager? Yeah. The hologram, right? Yeah. So this is probably a diverse version and maybe seventh generation of that. Right. That was created seven years back, right? This is today's technology. Was that kind of playing on memory? Because everybody kind of…

1:03:58Yeah, but then, being a songwriter, and I just tested all the songs. I was testing all the songs, I was trying to see whether they liked the music or not. So, all kinds of nationalities, like people from America, England, Ukraine. And it tested very well. At least three to four songs tested like, I like this. They didn't mention the same song. They mentioned four different songs. So I felt like, okay, we're on a good track. And end case, what will be happening with this? They will be performing. They could also perform in three different places too. At the same time, omnipotent. Because they're virtual, right?

1:04:37They could be performing in England, in India, in Dubai, all the same time. The different teams can come in. And they could become a series. They could become a movie. Have you seen NFTs? Yes. this kind of like can you draw a paddle? It started like that. It started like in a way when Hidara came to it started like can we do you know crypto NFT kind of thing. I said like we need a bigger idea. Right. The bigger idea is this. And let it let other stuff source come from here. Right. Because even if that goes off like a fad this will stay. The music will stay. The vision of this band stays. And what they're going to say.

1:05:18So it's a solid idea. So That's one of the reasons why even after three years, we're all excited about it. Every inch we move towards getting it out, we feel like... Because it's evolving. When we started, it was a game engine, Unreal Engine, and MetaHumans. Now we have AI technology, which enhances the face. It's not generative, but face swapping and all that stuff, which might use to take a long time. and then even the capture is much faster. Cleanse the capture which sometimes you have some stutters with those costumes. I can send you all the footage. Yeah, I'd love to see it. Tomorrow if there was a movie with say Shah Rukh Khan and a particular actress not really them but artificially generated movie would you watch it?

1:06:13There are so many movies like that you don't even know. Half the movie is... 100 % of the movie. 100 % of the movie. It depends on the story. Don't do what a Shah Rukh Khan will do well. You don't try to imitate that. That will be mediocre of this band. They have to do things which only they can do. They have the superpower to do stuff, right? So that is important. I've seen a lot of people use AI, generate a TV serial, which is, you know, TV serial actors can do better than what this genre is. But you do stuff which will be impossible for production or to finance or to act. And give that experience, which is transformative.

1:06:57Once you've been able to articulate an expression and voice and program it in, long term, these AI characters will inevitably… They're not AI characters. They're real characters. It took nine months to illustrate, to get the nose, the eyes, the smile and everything. No, but these characters will always do better than real world humans. No, that's… We… I'm the founder of that. So, I determine and I've set the rules, the parameters for what… How much it can talk, how much money it can send to each fan. All this stuff will be said by our team, the founder. Why would it send money to a fan? That's the secret.

1:07:38So, just to be like… I think if they make money, the band makes money. what can they share the money to with people who deserve and so that is the whole ultimate plan that they benefit not just by watching it but that is the whole by going to things which humans might be corrupted but with the kind of transparency which systems can run and do all the checks and balances it is possible I know people have attempted this with social media where super users got a percentage of the traction or the revenue that the social media platform earned overall. So here you're saying because the success of the character is dependent on the amount of traction which in turn is dependent on the fan you would share a part of the revenue with the earning fan.

1:08:30That is the plan. Right. And in future So you become the platform which collects a rake in a way. Even in the future even the website will have all six of them. Right. You can talk to each of them. They'll answer back. This is not a real human answering back though. No, the parameters are set by all the data, all the information or all the wisdom which each character wants to, which comes from mentors, which comes from the research of what does an African person want the world to hear? What is the unsaid narrative about that? Or what does a North Indian wants to do? Or a South Indian? I just put that because it's…

1:09:12We are different. Like, a Punjabi is different from a Tamil guy, right? And extremes, North and South. And a Chinese person, an Irish person. You have great history. The great history in every character. And you would scrape news to figure out bias and narrative? No, it is just… From a common perspective and a middle ground, I think when you look at things, there are a lot of unfair things which has happened to many races. It's undeniable. And even if you look at the genocide in Africa which has happened, which is more than any other genocide in the world. It's unfortunate, but the world, it is not a political band.

1:09:54They're not going to do political stuff. But I feel the gravitas of that is very important for a band coming from India, which is just, which is pure in thinking. And which is entertaining, first of all, not boring, telling advice. Would it speak about society? Of course. But when you speak about society, you become political. I think you'll find the balance. AI will help. There's this interesting debate happening in the US now, where if I'm the New York Times, I'm the editor of the New York Times, If a journalist writing an article under the New York Times says something which is defamatory, I'm liable.

1:10:39Yeah. The same question then starts to apply for a large language model. Absolutely. If the output they are throwing out, are they liable? There's so much of responsibility, yes. They claim not. No, but that's why we have to set the parameters. Very important. Sometimes you can't say the truth, just keep quiet. Right. I think because it's music and because it's about entertainment, we don't have to go into that stuff, unnecessary conflicts. It's very important to entertain in a way where people get hope and faith. And yeah. Someone said a passion ceases to be a passion when you truly understand it.

1:11:25The good thing about music is you never understand it. it's constant evolution that's why they say if you paint with the right hand constantly and you get comfortable with it tie your right hand and paint with the left hand but then you will find a different way because your mind wants to express and the limitation of what your left hand is will make its own art and it will only be like the comfort zone oh I can't do that so I'll do this and that will be different so music is also like that sometimes you just have to throw all the formulas I have to rethink I have to see I have to get there but I don't want to go in this route I'll go in this route because you're the first listener the maker is the first listener like the cook is the first taster right whenever I cook food you don't taste it no because I don't know what it is like whenever I spend half an hour 45 minutes making something I'm inherently biased into liking what I've made because of the opportunity cost of time that has been invested you're less judgmental or critical of you know I'm very critical right when I listen to it a couple of days later or a week later you know what's working what's not working what makes you oh I love that oh this is boring I've heard this before I do a curation and then whichever thing I like, sometimes I don't like anything.

1:12:59I go back to the drawing board. But how do you prioritize something like that where it's not what is earning you your wage, but to focus on it enough to not give up? I think what happens when you do something constantly, you get fatigued. Your mind becomes tired. And in this case where photography or anything else, poetry, it's all part of the creative industry. It's not like gambling or going away from something, losing money. It is enhancing your, widening your imagination, widening your confidence in you that you can do much more. Are you still able to do that? Pick up new hobbies? Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:46Yeah, something which doesn't involve a display. Because all my life I've been sitting in front of a display. So that's one of the reasons I don't play video games. No PlayStation, no Xbox and all that stuff. Because I don't want to sit in front of a... And I wanted to try something organic. So I might go into farming a little bit more. Are you farming now? Yeah, we have a mom's plot, the trust plot. So... Near the house? It's Wana from Chennai. That's where her samadhi is also.

1:14:23Okay, this is on the work side. Tell us what's going on in the personal side. By personal, I don't mean like some controversial thing or anything like that. Where is your head space at? How are you looking at society, at music, at… What is occupying mindshare? What's beautiful about the past, I would say, 18 years is starting the foundation, starting the music school, and watching miracles happen there. You know, kids are demolishing the whole stigma, saying that this caste is intelligent, this caste is not. Demolishing all this stuff. If any kid who's created by God, the light of God is in every kid.

1:15:09and the knowledge comes from God. It's not that they are worthy or not. If they're taught properly and we find those kids, they shine, they become an orchestra and they all play together as one voice, as one emotion. So that's what we discovered and it's a phenomenal breakthrough which we are proud as a family. My sister runs a school, I go there, I'm the mentor, I'm the principal. And then recently we went to Canada for the Glen Gold Foundation. they invited us and they all played. It's such a great moment to see kids from corporation schools taking your flight, going to Canada and playing for billionaires sitting there.

1:15:51And that itself is a great statement. And that keeps me going. If I'm the principal of that kind of kids, I need to be shining more. I need to be working more. And that keeps me going. People ask me what keeps me going. is that I need to inspire my school children there, my students, where we are teaching incredible artistry, right? To sing or to play the piano, to compose, to inspire. Yeah. Do you think humans can innately be altruistic, selfless? It is how we were brought up. I've seen many people, many families any religion. If they are coming from a great family, if the fathers and mothers are selfless and they act upon it and they create a kind of system where the kids automatically get inspired, they look up to their father and mother.

1:16:48If you go one level deeper, why is being selfless appealing? I think it is hardwired. Like if you look at every spiritual teaching in the world, is to serve. Only when you serve. Somebody served and built you this house. Somebody served and built the road. And they might be dead, but their soul is there in every... And somebody built a school. But did they do it with the intent of service or did they do it with the intent of individual gain that they were chasing? Of course, everybody needs to run the family. But when you think about... You can see the sweat. You can see the... And everybody wants their work to shine.

1:17:33And they want the work to excel. That means it's just so. Excel is not mediocrity. There's a sincerity is very important. The sincerity is what makes them tick. Get them another job. If I'm not sincere in my music, they're going to throw me out from a movie. Right? I think you're way beyond that. No, I'm just saying. I mean, nobody. Anybody can be thrown. Anybody can cease to exist. It is. because if I'm not sincere to that thing, I'm not sincere to myself. I won't be able to sleep if I let a mix pass by or a song which could be better and I didn't work enough for that. That will be the biggest punishment or self-torture for me.

1:18:15For at least three to four months, I should have done that, but I should have done. So I never give that chance for my mind to torture me. Even at the cost of getting a bad name from the producer. So I'll share a secret. I was going through some, I would not say bad time, but I would say I was feeling vulnerable because of some issue, being blamed for something that I didn't have anything to do with. And I was sitting and thinking about all these things. When I have been altruistic, is it because the projection of altruism has appealed? Because in the society that... So if I go back in time, when I think about it, all men are competing with each other at some level.

1:19:07The hunter-gatherer, the biggest hunter got more validation and importance in the society that he was in. So everybody wanted to be the biggest hunter at that time. And I think with evolution, society has kind of progressed like that. in the capitalistic society, the projection of being selfless is a value add. So, I think we are spiritually oriented. If you believe in God, whichever God. There's only one creator, right? We call them in different names. So, if I take that path, there might be atheists, I respect everybody. I've taken that path where I feel like every breath is a blessing to me.

1:19:55Every opportunity is a blessing to me. And it comes from one source. It comes from me surrendering. That I don't have to worry. I will be truthful. I'll, you know, I'll remember you. And he remembers me. And if my share, which he wants to give, has to come to me, even if the whole world is against it, it's going to come to me. Right. Right? And if I don't deserve something and if I want that, if it's not my share, it will never come to me. So it's simple to be peaceful. I take this as a formula. So there's no cause of jealousy. If somebody is in a better car and a better house, I said, his share is coming.

1:20:39It's great. I love it. I praise God for that and may live happy. So you don't have the root of jealousy is now killed. and if I need to be if I need something like that my worthiness has to be improved once I'm worthy suppose I'm going to get 100 kgs I need to handle it I need to take it otherwise it's going to destroy me I've seen many people be given something which is very valuable and that has destroyed their whole lives because they're not able to take that much so each one gets what they share by becoming worthy of it become the vessel empty vessel which can become cleaner and then you'll get all that gift.

1:21:21I think this, over years, you realize that one. Oh, I didn't get that project. I'm not famous in this area. So become worthy, you'll get. Do you feel like that? You are probably one of the proudest sons of our country ever. No, I'm just saying, like, we can get, sometimes we're human, right? Oh, that music is selling well. It crossed two billion streams. I was like, fine. Right. So my share is always coming to me. And I'm working for it. And each day, I'm trying to become worthy of something else. Right? I know you follow Islam. Mostly Sufism. Sufism. My quest to religion was more spiritual. because I've been in I'm a fan of all the religions, right?

1:22:16I've studied Christianity and Hinduism and Islam. I think every religion has something beautiful about it. But I also keep trying to figure out the intricacies of what makes one religion different from another and why one works depending on the era that it lives in. My problem is killing people in the name of religion. or harming people or abusing people in the name of religion. It's not cool for me. Like, I feel like it is a tool to discover greater things and you have to go, which is the core of humanity, right? And that's one of the reasons why I love music. I love to entertain. I think when I perform, I feel like it's a shrine.

1:23:03We're all enjoying the fruits of, you know, oneness in a stadium. You don't even know. Some people believe, some people don't believe. They come from different nationalities, different languages. But one sound and one happiness and one ecstasy, which is beautiful. That's what the One of Man Tour is about, which I am doing. Can you tell me more about Sufism? I'm very interested. Sufism is… Somebody gave me two books to read about this. Okay. The simple thing is to discover yourself. How do you discover yourself? Because you have screens. Your true self is screened. and to remove those cranes, you have to perish.

1:23:44So when you perish, you become a part of the light. You're saying when you are alive, perish, take out ego in a way. Yeah. So it's like dying before dying. What is death? The death of lust, the death of greed, the death of jealousy, the death of judgment. A bit like Buddhism? Take away desires? No, this is different. This is like when you remove everything, the drop mingles the ocean. That's it. When there's no drop, there's no ocean. Metaphorically. So we are all in the process. We know some people achieve it early. And when they achieve it early, they go off. They pass off. So when that happens is your voice becomes the voice of God.

1:24:24Your deeds become the deeds of God. Your sight becomes the sight of God. So your ego is gone and then you become transparent to the divine. So this is the main essence of it. So when you say Auliyas, the saints who are like Hajjali Sahib or Khwaja Sahib, so they've achieved that status. And when you go to a place like that, you don't worship them. You go in a place where they're surrounded with spiritual beings like angels who are praying constantly because that place is blessed. So when you pray there, it's effective much more to God than in a normal place. Same with the temple. It's like a gathering.

1:25:09Like if you go in a place where intelligent people are, it sticks to you. You get the knowledge, right? Like energy you believe in. Energy, correct. Like if you go to a temple which has like Thirupatiya, you go every year, you do feel a certain way. Yeah, there's a secret of every spiritual place and uneniable, I think. Every spiritual place? yeah if people are going there there's a blessing there there's honesty there is the commonality of faith is what I love like you might be in a different religion I might be in a different religion but the sincerity of the faith is what is measured I feel that's what makes you do good things that's what makes me do good things not that I'm worshipping a God who's different right so I might build a school you might build a school and but everything's benefited And humanity has benefited by that.

1:26:02I heard you say in another interview, karma. Karma? Karma. This is leading towards karma as the answer?

1:26:11I think in the belief of Sufism or Islam,

1:26:21you're judged by your deeds. Right? Not by how much money you have, what car you have, or how famous you are, what are your deeds? The deeds, so that's why we're all spiritual. We call us fuckies, spiritual beggars. We might be rich in money, but poor in spirituality. And that's one of the reasons why I consider myself as a spiritual beggar. So I go to that cause where I sit near the beach or meditate just to get spiritually rich. And spiritual richness comes in and the material richness follows. right? If you need it. If you don't need it, it's fine. And then there is the aura which comes to you and which is a blessing which comes to you.

1:27:05So your work becomes successful. What you do with intention becomes more

1:27:16appreciated, I would say. Yeah. I ask everybody what is spirituality. Some people tell me, they ask me if I'm spiritual. I'm like, I don't even know what it means. What is spirituality? mean to you? The good deeds, being kind, to serve humanity, and to be respectful to your parents, to your neighbors. Is that morality or spirituality? It is spiritual. I mean, these are all part of Sharia. If you look at smiling as a part of Sharia, smiling at someone is the biggest charity. If you don't have money to give, let me smile at them. You know, so the beauty of, I mean, I'm just a and I'm not an expert in anything.

1:27:58Don't take me seriously. I'm constantly trying to imbibe and I don't read stuff. I want to experience things and then I realize, okay, that's true. I don't read something and believe something which is, this is what it says and I believe in it. But I want to knock at a door, I should get an answer. Whether it's music or spirituality, and that's how my life is. I test out everything. Right? So, even music. When they say something is good, everybody says, oh, that's a hit song. Listen to it. If it's not good enough for me, I said, throw it out. It has to do something to my heart. It has to do something to my soul.

1:28:38And that's why I don't care when some of my songs fail. I said, no, it's going to come back. And three years later, what a song they said. I said, yeah, I knew it. So that self-validation is very important to find, believe in your work and find why it is. So in a way, you want to give more than you take if all scales were balanced. Music is giving, right? Music is giving and I'm getting so much love from people. I'm so, I feel worthless most of the time. It's like, do I need this? Do I deserve this? Makes you work harder. When I think of Indians, I think of, you know, politics. There is one person who comes to mind.

1:29:16I think of cricket, maybe Sachin and Virat come to mind. I think of artists acting wise, maybe, I don't know, Amitabh Bachchan, somebody like that comes to mind. When I think of music, not I, when the country thinks of music, you come to mind.

1:29:38They say that it's easy to be godlike. if you get the validation and devotion that comes with being known as God, it's much harder for a normal person to be God-like by virtue of that. Who's the God? You're known as the God. No, I'm not. I mean, God of music in this domain, for sure. No, they're just... I am such a big fan. Like, your song, Tu Hei Re, I think I must have heard that song through so many heartbreaks and falling in love and stuff like that. Maybe you wrote it for a completely different reason. Actually, you know, strangely, what happened was Mani wanted a... He wanted a love song.

1:30:28I was like, what love song? And I was so famished and I was like sleeping and then this tune was coming into my mind. It's so slow. So anyway, it's coming. It's like coming in my dream. I used to have a tape recorder, like a mini cassette. So I just recorded it. And so next day, I said, where is the tune? I said, I got it on tune. I said, it's okay, let's record. Then we recorded it. And so for the singers, I wanted SPB or Jay Siddharth. So I put also Hari Aran's name. And then I picked, I don't do that anymore. So I prayed and picked one. It had Hari Aran's name. Right. So Hari is a very, very unusual singer for that song, right?

1:31:14Why is that? Because he's a gaza singer. Right. And even now when he sings concerts, He doesn't stand on a note because that's his style, right? So we recorded it and then Mani shot it. Then he called up, he said, Ayaar, this song is doing something. I just put it on it and it's magic. I think we need to do a B-gym, you know, when she's running. then we added all that music in it. So it had an interesting history. No, incredible song. Love that song. But now that you're in this space like you're essentially God to all of us. No, no, no, I'm not God. I'm a servant only. How does that make you feel?

1:31:58It's a double-edged sword, right? Yeah. It's like they say there's no fame without blame. It just takes one second for people to completely turn the coin. So I don't take it seriously. I said I'm sincere to what I believe in. And even if I shout at people, I say, sorry guys. I'm human, right? Sometimes the pressure, I shout at people. You don't look like somebody who can shout at people. Come to my studio. Yeah? Not always. You seem like you have a very calm… I'm calm most of the time. But for me, my work sincerity is, it demands a lot. If something is not happening, then I'm failing myself and failing the client.

1:32:40When was the last time you shouted at somebody and for what? Yesterday. Really? No, just because it's a very demanding work. Right. Suppose if you're having 77 tracks and then you want the strings to be loud or even, you know, EQing strings. I need speed. Like, musicians are passionate, right? You don't want somebody to take like 30 minutes to get something, which I think could just take one minute. Is that what irritates you? Something taking longer than it should? No, no. I'm just saying like, my voice will be a little louder. The dynamics will be forte, not cancel. Like musical language, they say.

1:33:22What are you looking forward to at this point? What are you scared of and what are you looking forward to? Scared of? Yeah. all the scary things have already happened in my life my father's death my grandmother's death my mother's death and I'm looking forward and does it affect you in that order it did it made me like completely numb it made me zen mode it made me believe that everybody is going to die so it kind of catching on to something and loving something deeply is a is a unfortunately anti-spirituality it's not anti-spirituality as a loving the true love is the love for God I feel like every other love is tested and when you say God you in a way are saying universe the creator the creator so and I think we can learn from everything from the plant from the sea from the mountain from the sky from a bird from a microorganism is that where your music is most inspired by nature?

1:34:29Absolutely. Also mathematically... The enormity of and the complexity of every creature, every creation and in the galaxy we're just not even a dot, right? And the multiple galaxies and it makes you humble how small you are, how... The micro and macro they say, right? Do you also look at that technically? Like in my world of trading we have Fibonacci sequences, the golden ratio of and try to find that in music or create music with that? No, I just go by instinct. I just go by what will be interesting and what will be a good combination of things. What are you most looking forward? I'm looking forward to the success of Secret Bounder if it deserves and because we are putting all our hard work and we want to create something extraordinary from India to the world and because we put three years of a life in it.

1:35:29You want to make this the most significant entity from India to the world.

1:35:41Are you bored of movies now? No, I'm never bored. Because, you know, if a Western artist has to do an album, they have to think about it. I'm getting help from the script, from the director, from the screenwriter, from the lyricist. My part is just music, right? So each album is different because the different combination of different consciousness comes together. And we create with the intention of creating something great. We push ourselves into. And then we have live feedback. Each song is, you know, how it's received and how people. So that magic is not changed at all. Like what you get from people, that instant feedback and their adulation in the concert it's a great thing.

1:36:25I never want to lose that. And if I want to do anything, like I want to do a private album, instrumental album, or a collaborative album, I'm free to do it. Nobody's stopping me. The big project right now is Ramayana? There's Ramayana, there's so many Secret Mountain, and a couple of English ones going on. And an Arabic movie. Really? Horror movie called Bab. Namit showed me parts of Ramayana. It looks incredible. Look, sounds incredible. Thank you. Do you think there's a future to the movie business? The movie theatre business? So, theatre business is not going anywhere. It's going to stay. But it should be reinvented.

1:37:14Can you tell me how? Because over 100 years now, you're still seeing a rectangle screen. And of course, some 3D and all this stuff comes in. And I think immersive thing is the future. Like the spear. What's doing in Vegas. Everything looks so unbelievably spiritual. And it's something very human about watching with that quality. I've never been there, but I've seen the videos. It is incredible. Yeah? Yeah, I think that's the future. Because you can never get that in home entertainment or a phone or anything. It's experience that kind of, it's incredible. So you're saying everybody can afford a big screen, not everybody, but a lot of people can afford a big screen at home.

1:37:58So the difference between a rectangle in your house and the rectangle in a movie theatre can't just be 10x the size, it has to be a bunch of other things. Exactly. Especially now because now that we are being bombarded with content, I hate that word, that you need to reinvent the way movies are made together so that they don't go to their, ah, it's boring. I know what's going to happen. So let me look at who's, you know, Instagram me or what's happening. So that goes away because you're all stuck and you're completely involved. All the senses are active. In La Musque, we have scent, we have haptics, we have motion, we have 3D, we have ambisonic sound.

1:38:43all the stuff comes in together. And that's a different experience. But can a theatre screen afford that? That's not our problem. When people make money, they would have to invest more money. But there's probably too. Even each metro can have one. Right. Right? And we don't even have a proper symphony hall in any of India. Nowhere. And musical theatre is another important aspect of entertainment which could come in because we have so many talented singers, actors here, and they're all looking at movies. And if you look at London West End or Broadway or Canada or Australia, they have musical theatre and it travels.

1:39:24Once you make one big hit, it travels all over the world forever, for like years, 40 years, 50 years. It's there. Look at Sound of Music or Phantom of the Opera. We have great stories to tell. And I've seen, when I was a kid, I've seen Parashuram, Ravaneswaran. And that's it. Now I think the only one which I keep saying is Mughalism. Nothing else significant in India. I went for the Phantom premiere at NMACC. Yeah. Incredible. And that's probably the only place which is world-class in India. Is it a chicken and egg problem? because the discretionary spending power of Indian audience is limited to a certain number.

1:40:12Can you just think about an airport? Oh, the airport is very costly. Let's go on trains. We can't. It's a necessity for people. They have a right to have proper infrastructure. It's very important. There should be enough places which brings hope, pride, you know, entertainment. If you don't deliver that, they take a flight, they go to Germany, watch Hans Zimmer and Phantom of the Opera in London and they come and know, that's great. What about the person who can't afford that? They don't deserve that? They also deserve to see, you are influencing minds which can become the next Einstein or Ramanujam or Steve Jobs.

1:40:53This is the way you should inspire them. They don't need to see that only in America or England. our country is now prosperous enough to it's important to be in a chorus to say that we need this this is for future India for our youth, for our children to experience all this stuff if you were to give some advice so our audience I'm not good at advice our audience is largely wannabe entrepreneurs young from India who want to know what business to start what company, what startup in the live event space, like there's Book My Show, there's District, there's a couple of concert organizers. If you could advise our audience to start a business in live, it's growing the fastest in terms of rate of growth versus other form of entertainment.

1:41:47What could somebody start? Simple thing. Finding the void. I find void in in art, artistic stuff, fashion. Fashion is definitely coming. It's much better now. But even furniture, like this furniture you have here, you can't buy it. Nobody makes it. They make something very boring. It's copy-pasted from 100 years back. There's no imagination in any kind of furniture, which I see. it comes from Indonesia or China or Malaysia I see a void there it's because of scale that China has in producing these we should have scale we have like more population than China right but they're producing for the world so they get the cost I see the same thing who's asking not export right and electronics we still don't have like my keyboard I wish I play an Indian keyboard in my lifetime No, it's from Japan or US or Germany or London, never from India.

1:43:01Musical theatre, of course. In my thing, definitely musical theatre, having an orchestra in every state is very important. Having a world-class, like a sphere kind of a thing. Changing entertainment. Entertainment is something which people need. People would. But if a sphere costs$500 million to do? No, I don't think it's that. No? Everything is so slashed up. Like all the LEDs you get so cheap now. I mean, at that time, maybe it would have costed that much money. Not anymore, you think? Not anymore. I think definitely with the latest technology is much. It's probably one hundredth of the price now.

1:43:36Nice. And you don't need that big a spear. Would that be something, if somebody comes with a very interesting business pitch to build, one of our young friends, would you be interested in partnering? Bring them in. We'll create the content for that. Right. We'll create everything. Right.

1:43:57Okay, I mean, I have no questions per se left. Last part. Anything else you want to say? Fleeting thoughts about the world, society. What is occupying your mind space that you're actually thinking about? I stopped seeing the news literally from 2000, 2001, after the war. Smart man. I think most people should stop. And whenever I tried, sometimes I forget and go into streaming and I see and then I get sick. So I think the best choice for anybody is to look at your own family, your own welfare, your own parents, your kids, and be kind to your friends, my neighbors. And because if you think about the world, what's going to happen to the world.

1:44:46Yeah. You miss what is going to happen to your family. If you look after your family, the world will take care of itself. Makes sense. I think even back in the day, the world was going through problems. It's just today we are seeing the problems. Now we're seeing everything like this close. Yeah. So every problem looks like big. Yeah, like now we're wondering why is some crime happening in some corner of Africa? I'm sure it was happening 50 years ago. Absolutely. Not that we are insensitive about it. I think we just definitely have to develop a great justice system socially. Right. but it's important not to get disheartened and lose your faith in humanity because you are humanity each one of us is humanity our good and bad affects humanity very important okay thank you so much for doing this would you like to finish with a song is it possible I'll send you a clip if I give you a guitar would you like to I don't play guitar much I can play if you sing if you tell me what chord to play wow I don't know what I'm just I'm talking more now You can do one minute.

1:45:47It looks really nice. What is it? Just bring that guitar from my bedroom. Bedroom guitarist, huh? Bedroom guitarist. Give me the… Okay, it's in tune? It's in tune, I think. Yeah, it should be in tune. I'll play a chord, you tell me if it sounds in tune. I think… Play a minor chord.

1:46:13Now what chord is that? A minor. And go to E major. So A minor, E major. Okay. Okay? Right. So go to E minor.

1:46:27Go on just A minor and then I'll say change.

1:46:35Guys,

1:46:51Amen.

1:47:19Thank you. That was fun.

1:47:27I'd love to come one day and sit in your studio when you're making a song. Come, come, come. I'll sit quietly in a corner. I'll sit quietly in a corner and make the noise. I have a studio here too. In Bombay? Yeah, Anderi. Yeah. Big complex. When are you making a song mixed? Today, tonight. Really? Yeah. You want to go make a song now? What are you saying?