Rishi Sunak & Akshata Murty : Marriage, Power & Losing All In Public | Nikhil Kamath | People by WTF

28:26More risk-taking. Yeah, but you were more comfortable being emotionally vulnerable with other people. And that is the place to do it. Because if you're trying to understand, well, how do you give feedback, which is a critical, if you're trying to build a team, run a team, in any context, being able to give feedback and manage people is so critical. And actually trying to figure that out in a low-risk, trusted environment at, say, business school is much better than trying to figure it out on the job. when you're 40 and running it. That's what you do with the foundry in a way, right? You're saying guys and gals come together and build something you're passionate about, but do that in this intense way.

29:09And frankly, it is more low risk than if they had to go out in the real world and do it themselves. Because I think everything comes down to people in the end, right? So understanding people. in a better way, which again, I think what I'd say to kids as an engineer, but it's these other things I'd want to make sure one way or another from school, from college, from whatever else, they're building those skill sets because I think whatever happens with AI, those will be more and more valuable over time. I always say to Rishi, I'm so intrigued and frankly more convinced than ever that in the world of AI, let's figure out, let's lean into being more human.

29:59And what does it mean to be more human? We can have a conversation around that.

30:06But I think to me, those qualities are compassion. It becomes more important, not less important. Compassion and intuition and things like that. Now, you can tell me whether AI can learn all of that, maybe in time, AGI, et cetera. But let's lean into those human skills. And those are not, and I think schools are changing, because I now have been in one shape or form, I have been a part of the Indian education system, the US education system, and the British education system. Through the kids, yeah. Through the kids. And in all of these places, I see it is changing, Nikhil. It's not like when I was growing up, right?

30:51But is it changing fast enough? That's a question. I think that is the key, right? And I think probably because the same with you, like we're closer to the technology development. So we see what's happening there. And the government always moves slower than that, even at the best of times. And changing whole systems like an education system takes time. But my general, and I was saying this last week at the AI summit, What political leaders can't afford to do is treat AI like tomorrow's problem. It is an action this day issue. And there probably is not much. I mean, I don't think you see a huge amount of debate and discussion about changing the education system.

31:38So in the way we're saying being a generalist is better than being an expert? Yeah, I mean, so interesting. because I would think that you would say, no, you need to build deep skills in a couple of things. So I think this is, yeah. We might not say the same thing. I don't know. And I would use a different word for generalist. I'd say breath. I think the set of what, they're horizontal skills. You need those, which are not domain-specific, right? The critical reasoning, thinking, judgment, all those human-centric skills that we just talked about, empathy, feedback, dispute, regulation. Exactly, dispute, negotiation.

32:19All those human-centric skills and a set of cognitive but horizontal cognitive skills like critical reasoning. So that's where you need what I call horizontal skills, which aren't domain-specific. But I don't think it's old-fashioned, but I still think if you want to do something well, you have to... Have deep knowledge. Master it. And, you know, you want to do something well. You need to commit time and effort to being someone who stands out on it. Now, look, that is easier now. Well, sorry. What's easier now is for many more people to reach a high knowledge level because of AI, right? So it's harder to stand out for that.

33:06But you can't not have that. That's my view. Now, that might be a bit of an old-fashioned view. But I tend to think if you're talking to someone who's pitching you for one of your companies, right, and in this foundry and they'd say, okay, we've got an idea for a confectionery business. If they don't know the confectionery market in India inside out, I think it would be, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I would find that odd. I would expect them to know more about the confectionery market than anyone else that I speak to. My thing is, you only build deep knowledge in something, I think, if you're passionate about it.

33:45And so when I think of that in the context of entrepreneurship, take the confectioner business, this person probably, for a number of reasons, deeply cares about that space. And that's when innovation happens, I think. Right? So deep knowledge combined with passion, combined with this breadth of skills that we've talked about, is, I think, incredibly interesting. But to your point, and this is on college, right? So if one of our kids was doing a degree, or they're choosing a degree, and whatever it is, engineering, English, economics, if all they did for the three, four years was just study that subject without building those broad capabilities, then that would be, I think, a problem.

34:40They would not be set up to succeed in this world. Now, you can build those capabilities through the subject and you can do it as a standalone class. But if all you did is just study the pure subject and you're the expert on this industrial economics over here and that macroeconomics over there and Dario talking about corno equilibriums took me back to my industrial economics classes. That is not sufficient. That is absolutely not sufficient, if you haven't left at the same time with that other horizontal. I think that comes back to what makes us more human. Are you guys like this at home? Are we...

35:18What does like this mean? Why is the this? Again, again. Because we're on camera. What's the this? Having interesting conversations. Having interesting conversations, you mean? You finish each other's lines off. Oh. I think we are. I really do. But underneath you don't agree? Not always. No, we've... Not always. Oh, yeah. Well, good way to put it. So I think our destination is always the same. Which is? Well, so... Depends on the situation. Yes, like we end up arriving at the same decision, say. For the most part. For the most part, for the most part. Or at least in all the big stuff, no? Yeah, yeah.

36:02But I think our journeys... We don't start... Yeah, and we don't start from... We don't often start... I think we probably rarely start from the same place. Oh, I was just going to say our approaches are quite different. Yeah, exactly. Right? So, for example, if there's something to do with our children, we'll kind of know how we... We know, in fact, what the answer is. We know what we're solving for. What we're solving for, that's right. But then you'll come at it. The way you will come at it and the way I will come at it. Exactly, approach. Yeah, approach or a starting point will be different.

36:38How is it different? You go and then I'll go. Well, I will probably come at it from a more analytical, more practical. Process-oriented. Process-oriented. Even in this interview, he's giving me the evil eye when I'm like a bit all over the place. And he's like, no, that wasn't the question. I didn't catch it. I know the evil eye. Can you show us? A subtle evil eye. I didn't think I was doing that. Only my link. And I will come at it with heart, with passion, quite risk-taking. And more intuitive. Yeah, heart, intuitive. And less structured. And much less structured. And less practical. Yeah, and I will be...

37:28So, although we're solving for the same thing, you know, what's best for our kid or what should we do in X or whatever it is. I mean, let's talk about something, right? Like going into politics. Rishi, you didn't grow up thinking you would want to go into politics. But when he first talked to me about it, I'm like, great, you know, you can make a real impact and solve all these challenges. And Rishi just has a more structured approach to that. And I thought that was really... But we, on all those things, so we'll, anyway, we talk about, so we talk, your point is, so we talk a lot, and then it will probably at some point, you know, we're better at now.

38:12What, are you saying it near up? The hand gestures. It might do a bit of that, right? If it's a particularly big thing and we've come at it differently, then there'll be a bit of that. Go away. Then we'll come back at it.

38:29And as you say, on all the big things, we end up being very happy, I think, having been through the process. And we have enough trust now. I mean, you know, how long we've been married, like 50, 60, whatever years. we have enough trust that the process is, even if it's a bit fraught during, we trust the process, right? We trust the process and we trust each other. Yeah, no, no. So I think it's, we know that the other person genuinely believes in the same things. Which are? So to me, when I say that, I think values, right? And I think those values we share so many, which are around having a great deal of integrity, working hard, being curious about the world around you, and having compassion, I think.

39:23Yeah, and respecting everybody. Great respect and compassion, yeah. Where did the values come from? I think from our parents. Parents, yeah. And that was the bit, as the superficial differences, but I remember when they met, that where your parents home yeah where you so our parents first met which I was I was stressed about I was not nervous but it was fine she left me to deal with it and it was and it was stressful because it wasn't very I mean she knew both sets I knew both sets but you know they when they met and they came her parents came with her uncle to my to my parents' house in Southampton and and I was there my brother was there and it I mean it was genuinely stressful because they were so different on the surface.

40:16But it ended up being really positive. And that was the thing that your parents had said to me. They said, we were apprehensive because we just didn't know whether they would have the same values to us. They're different. Different. But actually, how... Their approach to life. the things that they value, the things that are important to them, how they've raised you, being in your house. Education being one of them. So, are values more nurture than nature? You were not born with them? Are values more nurture than nature? Yeah. Yeah, I think they are. I mean, I say that. Yeah, I think they are.

41:03Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I was talking to my therapist, I was speaking with my therapist recently. I'm going to... Yeah, please try. Is that okay? I'm assuming this is not for display. So, yeah, good, because I'm not stuck in right now. She is so ridiculous. I'm just sitting there. I didn't want to... Polite and whatnot. He does this in every... Anytime there is... That's rude. There's anything we've done together. Oh, that's it. We had this... we had a great meeting with another international leader and his spouse. And they had catered afternoon tea, which was very nice. And, you know, we were all, rightly, you know, you meet them for the first time, you're trying to make sense of each other, making sure that they're comfortable.

41:52But there were all these cakes. And then halfway through it, Rishi's like, well, I'm going to start on the cakes. And it actually was great because no one else was touching any of the food. It was a genuine kind of, we're looking for an icebreaker. And Rishi just went straight in for the food. How was the journey, Rishi, from going from being the person who was at Goldman Sachs to becoming the Prime Minister of UK? I know it's a big question. It's a big question. Yeah. Yeah.

42:26Well, I think the first thing to say, it was the journey that I had imagined, even if it happened far faster than I would have imagined. Because I, you know, I'm one of these people who thinks if you want to go into politics, you are far better off having done something first. That's my view. And I think that because, A, you bring a set of skills and experience about something else into the political arena, which is just a good thing. You have that knowledge which you can contribute. But also from a mind... And an understanding of the real world. Yeah. I think, oh, actually, you're saying what I think I'm about to say, which is...

43:13Oh, sorry. No, no, no, I think it's the same thing. Competing each other's sentences. which is a slightly different mindset to how you approach things. Because if you've spent your entire life in politics, you tend to see everything with a political lens. You see the politics in every situation or every problem. Whereas if you've done something else first and you've just had a normal experience in business, teaching, medicine, whatever it is, armed forces, you come into politics, you don't see the life through a political prism. And I think that is better. So for those reasons, I think doing something else first is the right way to do it.

43:50Certainly, that's what I wanted to do. So in that sense, the career path was one that I had broadly thought about. Obviously, it happened a lot quicker. And I think the other thing which was important to me, which we talked about a lot at Stanford, was financial independence and financial security was important to me as a precondition to going into public service. Doesn't politics afford that? Sorry? Politics gives you financial security as well, right? I mean, why do you say that? Aren't British politicians paid well? They are paid well by average wage standards. So there's a body that sets politicians' wages relative to a set of professional classes.

44:35So if you look at what the average person in the UK owns, politicians are paid considerably more than that. But for the financial security that I wanted, everyone has their own view. I hear you. For somebody who went to Stanford, probably not from that benchmark. Yeah. So there was a degree of financial security that I wanted, which was not just to be able to live my life, but to make sure my family were okay, that our kids would be able to have flexibility, that the person that I met would be able to have flexibility. Obviously, I met Akshla. So I kind of came into it wanting to be able to give my kids, my family, the choice actually to not have to maybe do what I did.

45:21I was lucky. I liked something. I was passionate about something, to your point. I happen to be passionate about something which is also well rewarded financially. But it was very important to me to have that financial independence. Bringing this other set of experience and skills into politics and government was important. So in that sense, the journey happened as I would have wanted it to. I think what was different about it was the speed. Right. The speed in which it happened, which if I look back and I kind of think, what do I think differently about the world now than I used to at the start of that journey?

46:09I used to think speed was... Thank you. Yeah. I used to think speed was the most important thing. And I've come to appreciate that patience is... almost a bigger competitive advantage. And I think when you're that age, Nikhil, I'm sure you'll resonate with it. I am that age. No, now I would say. But I think when you're in your 20s, I think you're constantly thinking about, I've got to get to this point, this point, the next thing. And, you know, there's a list, 30 under 30, young rising stars, 40 under 40 list. and you are focused on getting to the next thing and if I don't do this by this point, then the window is gone.

47:03And I was very much like that. Then I'm not going to be successful. I'm not going to be successful. And I think given, and it might be a strange thing for someone who's had my career path to say, right? You end up being the youngest prime minister in 200 years. And in one sense, that's incredible. But in another sense, as I say, that patience is its own competitive advantage because there is some times when actually it's worse to arrive too early than it is to arrive too late to something. And it's very much not the view of people, entrepreneurs building companies, but certainly from my experience, there's some things that you reach the position, but you then want to be able to be at your best when you have that position or that role, whatever it might be.

47:52And sometimes that comes with experience and making sure that you have the experience and the judgment to make good decisions when you're in that role. Right. Is it also rate of growth that keeps you happy? For me, yes. So now what happens after having... After you've done this thing. Yeah. So, you know. We've had lots of incredibly interesting discussions. I think probably the slightly discomforting thing for me, which actually has helped me get more comfortable with, is for the first time in my life, I don't know what the next thing is. What to work towards. I'm not working towards a specific thing.

48:33Will the high ever be the same? I mean, you were at the pinnacle of validation and importance in society. I don't think any amount of money will get you there. So what is the high that makes you feel like relatively higher than the previous high? So for me, and I think the same for you, or you're seeing that more now, having this somewhat of a blank canvas is exciting. Because I love trying out different things. I love, you know, we were talking earlier about risk-taking, etc. Not taking risk for the sake of a risk, but having a blank canvas, or some people might say starting over again, right?

49:25That's quite exciting. Because also we have had, both of us, what feels like, because we've been together for and our 20 years, these incredibly meaningful,

49:42just incredible experiences. So we have a blank canvas, but I would like to think we have wisdom with it, and we're lucky. We are able to do things that interest us, that fuel our passions. So I would say that's the first thing. I don't know if that's a high or not, but it's exciting to have that blank canvas. And we're starting to lay colour on it in our own way, in ways that are deeply meaningful to us. So not just doing it to tick a box, right? Not doing it because we have to get to the next milestone. We don't even know what the next milestone is.

50:25It's liberating. Yeah, I think it is, in a way, liberating. So I'm 45. We're 45. We're 45. you know, God willing, I've got more, we've got more working years ahead of us than I've got behind us. And that, when you think of it like that, I can't live day to day thinking that the most important thing I've done has already happened and nothing else I do in life will give me the same fulfillment or purpose but high is the word you use. A, I don't believe that, and it would be a hard way to live if you did. And the liberating thing, as I said, is for someone who's always been on this track, and it's like, okay, I need to get into this university and then that degree and then that internship and that job and that MP or that business school and that MP, and then get into the cabinet and that job, et cetera.

51:29This blank canvas thing is entrepreneurial. right and there's a you know that better than most right there's a fulfillment that comes from building something with a blank starting with a blank canvas as actually said so that's what we're now doing and and as you said it's exciting because you get to start this second chapter second half of your professional life with all these incredible experiences and skills that you've built up yeah which you didn't have on that journey that's what i was saying before whereas before was like rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. It felt, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I think when you're 18, 22, starting your first job, et cetera, I think it can sometimes feel theoretical where you know in your head, oh, I have to do this job, this degree to get this job, to get to this place.

52:21Whereas now, we don't just rely on kind of established frameworks we're able to deep dive into what I will call wisdom, right? We are able to build on those incredible frameworks, which are given to you by education, your values, your career experiences, your professional experiences, but also just having had the vast range of meaningful experiences and you're only 45. Yeah, and you learn from them, right? And you learn from it. All the failures you've had, all the things that you've got wrong and reflected on and the things that you've got right and understanding what you're good at and why you get them right.

53:12I have to believe that roughly, you know, worked 20-something years, will have 20-something years left to work. I should be far better set up for success over this next 20 than I was over the last 20. But it depends on how you define success, I guess. Yes, yeah. But if you're defining success by one particular job or position, then maybe. But I don't think either of us think about success like that. So that maybe is... This is very personal to me. A lot of people, like last night a bunch of kids were asking me, why don't you become a politician? Yeah. And I've never thought of it. I don't have any plan or any inclination whatsoever.

53:53But I really want to know, how does it feel? Like, to go from working in a corporation to becoming the Prime Minister, how does the attention feel? How does the criticism feel? How does the responsibility feel? Responsibility, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, for someone who's entering into politics, you know, I get asked a similar question. You know, for young people who are thinking about politics, you know, I say to them, you need to be resilient. You need to be patient. And you need to be motivated by public service more than ambition. At some level. So those are the, I think, the things that you need to make sure that you have.

54:50What's under that, though? The day you figured you're becoming prime minister, did you sit at home and you're like, this happened? I didn't have time. Nikhil, I, yeah. It has to be a big thing, right? Yeah, you know what? For me, the circumstances in which I became prime minister, It was so sudden. I didn't have time to do much of that. We were in different places that weekend. Yeah, I was in Yorkshire and you were in London. I was one minute, I was with our two kids at TGI Fridays in bowling. I just lost a quite bruising leadership election to Liz Trust. And I was emotionally starting to look forward to this next chapter of my life, spending time with the kids thinking about what we were going to do next and so I physically and emotionally was in a completely different place and then all of a sudden this thing happened that I was not prepared for.

55:49Thinking actively about. Actively emotionally or practically and it happened just so quickly and so you didn't have time and then I you know it was a battlefield promotion right and there was a huge number of things that I had to deal with immediately. So I didn't really get to have that type of moment. I think we had one call with your parents. Yeah. So it was Rishi's mother's 70th birthday that day. It was our youngest daughter's 10th birthday, and it was also Diwali. All those days that it was happening, yeah. Yeah. And so we had one phone call with your parents, and that was kind of it, I think.

56:26It actually, at first... The moment it kind of first properly hit me, because the first few days there was so much to do, it was, I forget whether it was five days, four days, a week later, there was a, because I got, became Prime Minister around Diwali. and so there was a Downing Street Diwali reception a few days after I became Prime Minister and it was at that moment I was you know I was doing that and obviously in particular the significance of being first British Asian first Hindu Prime Minister of the UK it being Diwali everyone there was very aware of that and obviously expressing how much it meant to them and that's the moment where it kind of did hit me for a second, that aspect of it was obviously, it was very nice.

57:16But to your point, it was an extra, also an extra responsibility, I felt, in a positive way. You obviously have a responsibility to do a good job in general. But, you know, I wanted to also make sure I did an extra good job because I was the first of representing a lot of hopes and dreams of a community that I wanted to make sure that I can make them proud as well. It's also crazy because the British ruled India up until 1947. And, you know, in a world where we still speak about things like racism, is there a line like, while you speak to me, and I watched a bunch of interviews, almost everything I think you guys have done in the recent past.

58:02But you're very Indian in a way where you took oath on the Gita, you have Diwali parties, you speak about her parents a lot. Is there a line where you could become too Indian in a way that while you're actively in politics in England, it could become a problem? It never did. Well, whether it was going to or not, for me, it was non-negotiable. And I wasn't going to change who I was to make that work. So even if someone had come to me and said, you need to be a bit less Indian or not talk about this or do that, I just wouldn't have. We talked about it. I made that commitment to myself. I wasn't going to change who I was for that.

58:53To get ahead in this. Yeah, and I was comfortable with it. If it was going to be a problem, then so be it, right? Like, you know, it just, it was never, that was how I was raised, right? That's who I am. I wasn't going to run away from it just because I had that job. And I also think, actually, it was a moment that was remarked on, obviously, in the UK when it happened, but not so much so. It's not like it really dominated the conversations and that's all everyone was talking about. And people had plenty of issues with me as prime minister. That was not really the reason that, you know, if someone was going to be upset with me, it wasn't going to be for that.

59:38But why not? Why didn't it become a bigger deal? Well, I think it's probably because of the country, right? And how it's, you know... Could never happen in the US, for example. But wait, they had a back then. Every country has a different... Yeah, but it was a big deal when it happened, more so than it probably was with me. And I think just all countries have their own relationship with these types of topics. And the UK has come a long way. and that's why I think it's a good thing that it wasn't a big deal. It was a kind of, oh, okay, and then we move on and they'll be upset with me about this or that.

1:00:11But then not because, you know, I didn't like what you said here or what you did there. And that's why. Not because, you know, you let Diwali Dia outside the door. Correct, even like lighting the Dia's outside down the street. Or you went back to the temple last weekend or something. I know how it felt so meaningful to us. It was so meaningful to our communities. But we didn't even second guess it because it felt so natural. And no one made us feel like we should second guess it, if that makes sense, right? Like we didn't feel uncomfortable at all. And I think that's the beauty of the UK, is your ability to genuinely believe in what you do.

1:00:48It was a very nice moment. Because when you become prime minister, you have to go see the monarch who was the king, who recently become king. And he formally invites you to form a government. That's how the process works. And so I go along to see him before I go to Downing Street. And that was a special moment. He's head of the Church of England, as well as being the king and the monarch and head of state, but has always been someone who's talked about being a defender of faith, not just the faith in general. And here I was, first British Asian Hindu Prime Minister of the UK. But the nice thing was, you know, we had tea in the afternoon.

1:01:40But because it was Diwali, and he's someone who's always been very engaged and supportive of the British Asian community in the UK, and they were Diwali Mittai. So it was not like kind of tea and scones, you know, tea and Mithai that he'd organized, which was a really lovely, kind of relatively unremarked moment. And just to me, I thought that was a... How are they? How are... The monitors. Well, we have this... I've met them a few times. I'm in that British Asian Trust. Yes, yes. I also have a colleague of mine who used to be the ex-chief of staff for Prince Charles. King Charles. King Charles.

1:02:25Yeah, so I've met him a few times, but in the very shake hand, hi, how are you, that kind of way. How are they? They're wonderfully warm people. Yes. I mean, look, as prime minister, you see the king or previously queen every week for what's called an audience. I watched this in the Winston Churchill documentary, I think. Ah, okay, yeah. The meetings, yeah. Yeah, so you have these meetings weekly. And then the other thing that is a cast-iron rule of UK government and politicians is that you don't ever talk about the royal family or your dialogue with them. But other than to say, as Akshata said, as you can see, very warm and very welcoming people who are committed to service.

1:03:12But particularly, as I said, with King Charles, as you saw, the British Asian Trust, it's something that he's supported for years and years. I'm not going to ask you anything controversial, but the thing that did impress me about Prince Charles is... King Charles. King Charles is he was into the climate thing 20, 30 years before other people were into it, which I thought was very forward-looking. Yeah. He's a huge, I think, he really is a naturalist in so many ways, I think. Yeah. He's very passionate about that. And he's very passionate about the natural environment. Yeah. He's very knowledgeable about it as well.

1:03:53Okay, tell me more about how it felt. After, okay, the first day, you felt like you didn't have time to react. Yeah. Because you were in whatever tumultuous, busy, busy, crazy madness warrior zone. But what happens three months later, six months later? At some point, you take cognizance of it, right? Like you wake up every day and suddenly you have like all the security and this and that. I've been to 10 Downing Street. Your house changes significantly overnight. Who did you visit? I mean, which Prime Minister? I think it was Boris. It was Boris at the time. But it has beautiful art in that. I was so impressed.

1:04:30Someone took me for a talk. Yeah, no. So we were fortunate in one sense because we'd already been living in Downing Street. Not everyone knows, but there are two apartment flats in Downing Street, one for the Prime Minister and one for the Chancellor. So, you know, for us and for our kids, we were used to that. It was a familiar space. So the very physical and practical aspect of having security or living in this building with everything that came along with that was something that we were used to and our kids were used to. And we made the decision not to change flats. When I went from becoming Chancellor to becoming Prime Minister, historically you would move and we made a decision not to do that.

1:05:16We stayed in the smaller So we were staying in the same apartment So we stayed in the same place precisely for our kids so they had that and for us we had the familiarity with it and actually it's a it's a funny but lovely environment for the kids. Our younger daughter loves history so she would love being in this building to your point, all the history and the art and she gave the best tour, by the time we left, gave the best tour of Downing Street. And then there are all the incredible staff that live and work there. For decades even, a lot of them. And they spoil the kids, right? So the kids would go to their security room and get suites and have fun looking at all the security cameras and kind of spotting what was going on.

1:06:00So it was like home away from home. So they felt very welcome. Obviously, it's a bit odd, but it's a bit strange when the Deliveroo or Uber Eats person shows up at the back gate. Is the Mato in London? I don't think so. I don't think so, no. So the kids love it. Actually, the lovely lady who ran the cafeteria in Downing Street would always spoil our kids with kind of bacon sandwiches in the mornings on their way to school and things like that. So there are these all, and we got our dog, Nova, while we were in Downing Street. And so she came there as a puppy. So she also got spoiled by hundreds of people.

1:06:44So, you know, that very kind of nice aspect, you kind of are growing up in this community. And living in. Living in. Now, it has its downsides, obviously. Our flat door, you know, Downing Street is much smaller than people realise. It's very kind of higgledy-piggledy, and offices and flat. So you'd open our front door to our flat, and the Downing Street policy unit breakout area is literally, you open the door and there's people sitting there having a meeting. They witnessed quite a few tantrums. Yeah, so like the kids are screaming on your way, like, good morning. While they're trying to figure something out.

1:07:18So those are some kind of day-to-day aspects of it that you get used to. But for us, as I said, the transition was, we had got used to a lot of that in any case. who was the smartest person you think you met while you were in office? Who was the smartest? Both of you. And what did you take away? I find this very, very attractive that you get to meet... So many interesting different types of people. Yeah, I would just say like really, really smart people. Or really, really accomplished people, which is not necessarily the same as being smart. Yeah. But really successful people. Well, we have to think about that.

1:07:59but can I just talk about the smart, you say smart, but I'll give you probably an unorthodox answer, Nikhil. So I, you know, we've talked a lot about the power of education to transform people's lives. And so when Rishi became PM, I thought about, well, what can I do in my own small way to add some value? Because unlike the US, the UK doesn't have a formal role for the spouse, right? and so but I also knew that I would or I wanted to in some small way have some impact in my own way and so I started this program called Lessons at 10 so every Friday we got kids in from across the country to come in and be inspired I mean the theme was be inspired be inspired by the building be inspired by leadership, be inspired to dream.

1:09:00And then every week we had a different theme. So you might love history, I might love rugby, Rishi might love finance, whatever, cooking, I mean, across the range. So don't feel like there's only one thing for you. Just go out and explore and you might just find that thing that gets you out of bed. And every week, Nikhil, I met young people. who didn't always, in fact, a lot of the time, didn't come with huge kind of advantages in life, but they were so inspiring to me. And I think, thank you. I think that is a memory that will stay with me forever. So it wasn't just one famous person, right? It wasn't one famous name, but it was young people, you know, with their idealism.

1:09:50I think that was really quite interesting. exciting. I don't know what you think.

1:09:59Yeah, I don't… I think there's not one… Can I serve you? I will help myself, please. Yeah, I don't want to… Are you having… Yeah, I'll help myself. Thank you. There you go. I'll let you. I don't think there's… I think there were some special moments. I mean, there were lots of special moments. thinking like the coronation was really special. In terms of individuals, but you're Nicol's asking about the smarts. I mean, look, people are smart in so many different ways. You're not one person. There's all dominant knowledge. But look, we're living in this era of AI. And, you know, I was struck spending time with the people developing that technology, right?

1:10:47and you know them, you've interviewed them, you've met them. But Sam, Dario, and Demis, who's obviously a Brit, came to talk to me about this very early on in my premiership. You interviewed Elon? I interviewed Elon as well around our AI summit. You looked like you were really having fun. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I mean, I was. Yes, I was. Yeah. Thank you. That was the first AI safety summit. Yeah, that was on the evening of the AI summit. You know, so it was nice, obviously, being in India recently for this AI summit here. When we started that summit in Bletchley Park, I didn't imagine that it would end up, not end up, but progress to have this incredible event here in India.

1:11:39And it's nice to have created this series. And it's been to South Korea, it's been to Paris, India, and it will keep going. How was it this year, the summit? It was great. It was, I think, a kind of testament to the prime minister's leadership that he brought so many of the leading businesses and policymakers together. But I think it was, for me, what stood out was just the energy and optimism of all Indian entrepreneurs and people involved in this. It was really striking. Just being in the hall, talking to people, such optimism about this, which is not what you find everywhere, and particularly in the West, where there is more anxiety about AI.

1:12:31In India, there's optimism and excitement and trust, and that is an advantage. Then you also saw the... He's incredibly impressive, isn't he? the Prime Minister. Yes, he's very impressive. Look, I used to talk to him about this when I was in office. And he's been talking about the India stack for a long time. Do you guys speak in Hindi or English? English. Because my Hindi is not good enough to do work. I would not trust him to do any serious work with, sadly. But he's someone who's understood the importance of technology, the importance of the tech stack. And as you see the announcement from Sarvam, which is superb, I mean, DPI, you know, Aadha and UPI and now these Ayushman Bharat health accounts, you put all that together, the ability to deploy AI applications to over a billion people is, again, distinctive advantage for India.

1:13:30So, you know, all the ingredients are there. Do you believe sovereign AI has a use case? Sovereign AI? Like what Sarvam was trying to build? Yeah, so my approach to sovereignty and AI is, and I've been thinking about this a lot, I think, and sovereignty and technology in general is, you know, my advice to political leaders and what I would do if I was in office is I think you need to do three things. The first is you need as a country to figure out where you can ideally control a part of a critical technology supply chain. So I think it's not realistic for most countries to think they can completely insource an end-to-end supply chain, certainly for a country like the UK, for example.

1:14:18What do you suspect is that opportunity for India? Well, people here will know better than me. But it's trying to identify... You mean hardware supply chain? But it could be a hardware capability. It could be a software capability. It could be physical. It could be something... It can be quite broadly defined. But something that, like I said, very unlikely that you can end-to-end insource a supply chain. But think about ASML, that company, critical component of the semi-supply chain. If you're the Netherlands, that's good for you to have. In a world where hard power matters, the world is more fragmented.

1:15:01The geopolitical environment is more competitive. I think to protect yourself, you need to have an ASML strategy. So figure out in the technologies of the future, where can you develop a capability that the world will need? So that's point one. The second point, and where Surroom comes into it, is you have to diversify your risk and take a portfolio approach. So there will be some, and what does that mean? It means not having vendor lock-in, making sure you're building applications and systems that are not relying on a single provider. And look, for some things, you want a frontier US model. Some things you want to have data sovereignty and compute and being provided domestically.

1:15:40You don't need that for everything. But what you need to do is think about your portfolio, figure out where you can dial some things up and dial some things down, where can you use open source, Where can you rely on Sarvam? Where is it fine to pull something off the shelf from another country that you can switch in and out? So that's where Sarvam comes in, is building that portfolio approach. And then the third thing is partnerships. And actually, look, yes, the world is more contested, but partnerships matter, trust matters, and there will be some things that you can work with other countries on to mean that you can't do everything yourself, but you have enough trusted relationships that you can rely on them.

1:16:21And again, you wouldn't fully rely on them. But as I said, these three components, if you do all three of those, you're giving yourself as much sovereignty as possible. But what does that mean, sovereignty? What it means is an ability to deploy the technology confidently in your own country, according to your values, your laws, your priorities. But you say deploy and not develop. Sorry, in order to deploy it in accordance with your, and have reliable, trusted access to being able to deploy it, which is why you need that portfolio approach. And actually having some, whether you're relying on open source or homegrown models, all plays into a part of that.

1:16:59But in a way, you're saying it's better for a country to rely on homegrown or open source rather than relying on American or Chinese. I don't think you can be that binary, Nikhil. I think if you look at the range of use cases and what's realistic for any one country to do. You have to look at your kind of approach to technology as a portfolio, and then there will be a range. If I've got very sensitive national security applications, I want probably an air-gapped cloud. I don't want to be reliant on anyone else. I can't have anyone else kill switch that. If I'm doing a healthcare application domestically, I might be a bit more okay with the model provider as long as I don't have lock-in and I can switch out different providers.

1:17:48Could be open source, could be domestic, could be foreign. And you would be skeptical of sharing data. But I would want the data to stay, right? There I would want my data sovereignty and I'd want the compute to be domestic. And then there'll be some other commercial applications where actually it's quicker and easier and cheaper to use some foreign thing. And it's not mission critical. and it's just actually I want to prioritize cost and speed. I think India has done it for financial data already, where it's hosted in India. I suspect soon all Indian data will be hosted in India. Look, all countries are, it's not just India, all countries are thinking about these issues differently to how they did in the past because the geopolitical environment has changed.

1:18:30So you have to think about sovereignty. We're in a world where countries have weaponized supply chains. there's more geopolitical competition and you can't afford not to have resilience. And do you think the world will continue to move in this direction where we're kind of like, I don't know if I can call it de-globalization. It's de-risking. It's de-risking. I think, you know, if you think about supply chain, it used to be all about just in time. Physical supply chain used to be all about just in time and now it's about just in case. But do you mean how countries now operate on their own versus the kind of coming together global order?

1:19:12There used to be like, I think, consensus building maybe up until five years ago. Right now, it seems to be everybody for themselves. For their own, yeah. I think it's not as stark as that in the sense that you have to be more resilient. You have to think about sovereignty because that multilateral rules-based system, much as it existed... Let me give you an analogy you will like. Like cricket used to have a World Cup where all the countries in the world came to play and compete. Now there are 20 different leagues. One big league, many small leagues, some irrelevant leagues, something like that.

1:19:54Maybe triggered by the Americans.

1:20:00with tariffs and everything else that they're doing. I do still think there is a role for partnerships and cooperation. So look what India's just done. Signed a trade agreement with the UK. Signed a trade agreement with the EU. The EU has signed a trade agreement with Latin America. The UK joined the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Is currently talking to the Gulf about doing that. So the ASEAN countries are figuring out how to deepen their economic cooperation. So yes, the US has changed its approach. And not just with this administration. Those changes have been in place for a while. It's changed its approach to trade in particular and how it views global defense.

1:20:44But that doesn't mean that other countries have given up on the idea that there can be mutually beneficial trading relationships. So lots of different partnerships. And that they can form mutually beneficial partnerships, whether that's in technology, whether that's in goods, whether that's in sharing critical minerals, supply chains. So I don't think it's as stark as every country is just out for itself. But clearly, you have to, if you're running a country, be more focused on resilience and sovereignty than you were five years ago. Are governments forgiving? Does it come down to one person? I'm just painting a scenario.

1:21:20Let's assume Trump's era comes to an end and there is a new president. I don't know, it could be his vice president, it could be Democrats, whoever comes into power. And the UK has a new prime minister. Do you go back to zero and start all over or do you remember and you think that, oh, this person did this? So a couple of things. One is to remember that some of these forces have been in place before President Trump. And do I think a future US president is going to suddenly cut all the tariffs? No. The baseline of tariffs to the US is going to be higher in the future, I think regardless of who the president is.

1:22:06Not least because whoever the new president is will have got used to the tariff revenue. It's quite a hard thing to get rid of. Do you believe that tariffs are inherently a bad thing? Because many countries have custom duties. Yes, they do. On US produce? Yeah. Look, I'm someone who generally believes in free trade. I'm on the free trade side of things. I think it's important that that trade is fair and there are level playing fields, which is why if I think about China's experience in joining the global trade system, when that decision was made in 2001, then there was, I think at the time, reasonable belief that bringing China into that system would A, impact its political outlook.

1:22:54Like take China, for example. But what happened is China didn't play by the same set of trading rules that everyone else played with. So how do you deal with something like that? If I were China and I say, I will not let your technology enter my country, I will build replicas and subsidize it for my own people. I will put tariffs on all the goods that are American coming into my country. What is left in America's playbook? I'll also artificially deflate my currency to make my trade more competent than yours. What's left in America's playbook then to mimic the action of the other country? And that's where I think, as I said, the trade has to be fair and on a level playing field.

1:23:39And if you haven't got that, then this kind of free trade model that works in theory, it's harder to explain to your citizens and to say that this is fine in practice. And it's not just the US. The EU has done the same thing with putting tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles because of the subsidization that happens domestically which is then that's not a level playing field, right? If people are freely, fairly competing, then trade can be mutually beneficial. But if one side is unfairly advantaging its exporters with government subsidies to that extent, and then they have artificially low prices, then obviously countries are going to take action.

1:24:25And again, that's not just the US, that's the EU. So I - Can I make a counter argument to that? Yeah. I don't remember what book I was reading this in, But at one point in time in UK's history, Birmingham was the center of innovation. A lot of the patents that were being created in the world happened in that one tiny place. I don't remember where I read this, but they were making a case for how Birmingham and the local economy shut down to foreign products. So the industry locally could thrive. and when they came up to scale and came up to a certain quality, they opened up all over again. Yeah, there's an infant industry argument that has, as I said, every stage, every country will have a different approach to this.

1:25:16But in general, between developed countries, where there is a similarity in approach, freer trade is better, in my view. as though the key is, is it being done in a fair way where there's a level playing field? And particularly with China, that has not been the case, which is a problem. And I think will increasingly become a problem because more and more countries are having to deal with the Chinese development model, which is very export-oriented, where to your point, they don't prioritize domestic consumption, they prioritize exports. And then lots of countries now are absorbing a huge amount of Chinese imports.

1:25:59and that is including india including the rest of the world if you look at what's happened in the u.s obviously has slowed that down chinese exports though and the chinese trade surplus is a record high as a percentage of global gdp so all those exports are going to all these other countries so i think there'll be increasing tension with these other countries you know the eu has already put on tariffs on on chinese evs so i think i think you will you will see that but look this focus on, as your point though about your question about what happens in this new president, where do things reset to, COVID also was the clarifying moment that many of us lived through in government that made us all focus about supply chains and the resilience of those supply chains.

1:26:44You don't forget that, and that changes your approach. I think those people who worry about national security were nervous around Huawei way telecoms equipment. That was the other big event that happened while I was in government, where we went through a process of deciding that we weren't going to rely on Chinese telecoms equipment. And that is before AI, we were focused on that. And that was an expensive and disruptive decision for many countries to take. These things stay, right, regardless of who the US president is or British prime minister, you know, those are structural features that now need to be incorporated into your thinking.

1:27:22I'm not going to talk to Akshita like she's Rishi's wife or Narayan Houthi's daughter. I think you've been dealt, if this were a poker game, a really hard set of cards. I don't play poker, so I'll follow along. I can translate you. But sure, I get it. But you were saying Delta heart sort of cards. Yeah. I feel like there is an emotional tax to being interpreted as an extremely successful man's daughter. where if we were to define happiness as rate of change in a way very hard to get there. I think people often look at the children of very accomplished men versus women you mean? Men and women as being lucky.

1:28:27But I think the counter is true. I feel like they're some of the most unluckiest people because it's so much harder for them to actually feel a sense of accomplishment. Sense of self, right? And then to have your husband suddenly become the prime minister, it can't have been fun for you. So interesting. So a couple of things.

1:28:56I'm hugely proud of my dad and I'm hugely proud of Rishi. But do you know, Nikhil, and this is maybe, this comes back to that unorthodox thinking that I have. I haven't let it burden me as much, right? So let's talk about my dad. It's partly a timing thing. emphasis was not this kind of what it what it became in time hugely successful tech start what was a startup and then became a tech business it was a company my dad started because he was looking at how could he add value to India. And he thought originally, you know all of this, right? He thought communism was the way. And then he had the stint in Western Europe and became a big fan of capitalism.

1:29:57So he was thinking, well, how can I? He told me some crazy stories around that. What happened when he was traveling solo. All of that, right? That's like a whole other podcast. But so for him, he figured out that economic development and economic success gave you a great deal of power on the global stage. And so he said, well, how can I play a small role in helping India develop that credibility and stand taller? Having said that, it was not an overnight success. And so I saw him in many ways beavering away, right, at something he believed in. He had an emphasis, I don't know if you remember, but the motto that he came up with was powered by intellect, driven by values, right?

1:30:54So he was someone who had a strong, has still a strong moral compass. and he believed that you power that moral compass with deep intellectual rigor and with skills that he had, which happened to be in the tech space while he was an engineer. But it was not an overnight success. I'm not saying it was a failure, but it took a long time. So I grew up very much being my own person, partly my thinking, partly circumstances. And by the time Infosys became more well-known, I was studying in the US. And that also was a slightly unorthodox choice because I guess I could have gone into engineering in India.

1:31:48But that wasn't my passion. And I always valued breadth and the liberal arts education offered that. And that was on the West Coast in California. So it was far away somewhat.

1:32:04and always made my professional decisions. I got the jobs I did on my own. I pursued opportunities that I created. And so while I was hugely proud of my father, I was also used to standing on my own two feet, right? And then I met Rishi.

1:32:26And this has nothing to do with my parents' success. But he reminded me a lot of my dad because he, too, like my father, had this huge passion for his country. And I remember one of the things, Rish, you said very early on. We were talking about how your parents' journey to the UK had transformed your family's life. And then, you know, they, of course, work really hard to provide you with this education. And you would one day hope to grow up in your own way. create a platform, create opportunities for lots of other young rishis to have, boys and girls to have these kinds of opportunities. So that reminded me a lot of my dad.

1:33:13And so I was, again, you know, rishi wasn't in the plan for many reasons, but it was inspiring to me. And so for me, my dad has always been someone, yes, he's been successful, he's done really well, etc. But to me, he's been an inspiring figure. And that's what I've taken away from him and said, how can I then introduce that in my own life through my own journey? And by the way, I'm not a technologist. I'm not an engineer. And I never felt bad about that because it was very clear to me from very early on, I'm going to carve my own path. And so absolutely, and look, Rishi and I got together, et cetera.

1:34:00Rishi became PM. But even then, that's why I was talking to you about lessons at 10, right? Rishi's PM. He does his thing. I would never interfere in his role, in his job. But I was very clear that I was also going to, in some way, thank you, create my own path and do something that I deeply cared about. And so I guess I'm, I didn't feel the pressure in the same way. Right. And so I don't, for lack of a better term, I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I think I feel, thank you. I feel quite grateful that I've had, for many different reasons, access to so many opportunities. And every time I'm thinking, how can I make it my own?

1:34:56And that's been something from when I was very young. So forget Rishi and your dad. Where does Akshita's validation come from? So one of my values, I have three values. and we've spoken about some of those things. Compassion, curiosity, and personal integrity. And personal integrity to me is, I define it, as being authentic to who I am. Others may not like it. Others may not understand it. But if it sits well inside of me, you know, we're talking earlier about intuition, right? I lean into my intuition more than average. Certainly between the two of us, I'm more on the intuitive side. Where does, I think my, look, I'm not going to say I'm holier than thou and I don't see validation.

1:35:51Of course not. All of us do.

1:35:58I really care about having impact, right? So what does that mean? you know, when we applied to Stanford, they asked you to write this essay. And even today, they still ask you to write the same essay. It's called at least one of the few essays you have to write. The question is, what matters most to you and why? And I remember writing about rain in Mumbai, actually. Because around that time, I was 23, we were, I haven't sort of spent a long time in Mumbai in a little while, but you know, the monsoon can be quite heavy. And for those of us who have a roof over our heads, we can observe the monsoon and say, oh that's pleasant but for those of us who don't it's less pleasant and so I wrote about equality and how do I help create a society where there is more equality Equality of wealth?

1:37:10Not so equality of opportunity at least Not outcome Not outcome and look I was 23 hugely idealistic and I really wanted to do do something that helped society in some way, the broader society. And I'd seen my parents through, my dad through Infosys, and then my mother through the Infosys Foundation, marry that impact from capitalism to philanthropy. And I was, I, that really moved me. And it's what we used to talk about. And it's what we used to discuss a lot about, even at Stanford. We'd have these big, not big, but we'd have these debates, right, about CSR. Yeah. I'd come at it from a bit more of a traditionally capitalistic economic argument.

1:38:04And actually stood out for, again, especially in a business school environment, you always stood out because you were always the one person in whatever study group or class. Well, how does it impact society? How does it impact the most vulnerable people? How does it... I think it's all validation. If one person gets validation through a capitalistic win, another gets it through a moralistic win or an altruistic win. It's all validation. No, fair enough. I feel like we're all seeking the same height. The pathway is different. Different, yeah. Yeah, no, fair enough. That's fair. This pathway comes further down the journey than that pathway.

1:38:41because I think you have to win at capitalism before you can win morality. True, true. And look, and many people will say, Nikhil, all well and good that you want to be altruistic, you don't have to pay the bills. You don't have to worry about paying the bills, right? I get that. But then I also feel a huge sense of responsibility as a result. And to your point, you need to do the first bit. To do the second. Which is what your dad did, right? It was that you have that impact only because you've been able to create the wealth and create the planet. I get that. So either I can bemoan that and say, oh no, I'm either person X's daughter or person Y's wife, etc.

1:39:23Or I can say, I'm hugely lucky to have what I have. What do I do with it? So in a sense, that blank canvas I've had much earlier in my life. Yeah. And let me tell you, some of the pictures I've drawn, I've not been pretty, right? But I've had the blank canvas. And I think that's... It's also a little bit my personality. Like, I don't... It's that poem that you gave me, you know, when we first met. One of the first gifts you gave me, that poem. Are you that guy who gives poems? No, he is not. He's given one poem. Before he said, no, I am that guy. I was going to be like, no. It was early on. It's only just been one.

1:40:12It has only just been one. But I knew of it anyway. That's why you gave it to me, not like you introduced me to it. By Rudyard Kipling called If. And my mother reminds me all the time that these words are painted or carved in the changing rooms in Centre Court in Wimbledon before you go out to play the tennis match. I'm not going to quote it exactly at all, But if you look at winning and losing as two sides of the same coin, then you're truly a man, right? If you treat triumph and disaster. If you treat triumph and disaster as two imposters just the same, right?

1:40:55So I think that's kind of stuck with me. That is how you are built that way. That is my approach to life, Nikhil. So, you know, I started a fashion business. We finished business school, and then I was working in brand consulting. During business school, I'd written a... Before you get... But that point on the... That is very who you are. You are much more... Which I've learned from. You know, the good things happen, don't get carried away. Not that you're not grateful, appreciative, all of that. Like when Rishi became PM. It's a huge moment, but it didn't. That's why I think we both kind of struggled to answer that question.

1:41:35Because it wasn't like, not because we don't honor it and are hugely proud of that moment. Great triumph. But equally, anyone who's had great triumph will tell you, you also see great disasters. Right? I think it's very evolved that you accept the cards that you're dealt. Because many others in your position really struggle with it. I'll tell you another thing that is bad today I don't know if it's good or bad but for somebody who gets their high from the moralistic altruistic wins in life society or pop culture has suddenly become conditioned in a manner where anybody who goes out and says they're doing something to do good the general emotion is distrust Yeah.

1:42:33So you're not trying... You're almost swimming against the time. Yeah, the timing is difficult. But there again, Nikhil, that's who I am, right? And that doesn't mean I have won as such at life, right? I've had my ups, I've had my downs. But I know I will always have stayed true to who I am and what my beliefs are. Yeah. And you have a very clear sense of that. Yeah, I have a clear sense of who I am. Yeah, yeah, you have much... I'm not going to impose that on you or, I mean, I impose that a bit on you, but we... In a nice way. But it's so liberating. And another way to look at it is during the pandemic, Rishi became chancellor, which all happened quite suddenly.

1:43:36So I was with the kids a lot, and you're just trying to figure out how to live this new life. And I picked up Hermann Hesse's book called Siddhartha Aga. And you read about what Lord Buddha said. and it's the middle path. It's the balance. That doesn't mean you shun desire, but equally you don't shun austerity, right? You embrace both in a way because what comes out of those two extremes comes the middle path. And Anushka was saying this the other day. if she's our youngest daughter, she's 13, she said the Romans, I hope, because I don't know this philosophy as well as she does, she was talking about the Stoics versus the Epicureans.

1:44:34The Epicureans are all about… More Greek than Romans. More Greek, actually, exactly. The Epicureans embraced desire and amusement. and the Stoics somewhat shun that. But actually, the happy place is somewhere in the middle. And you're not on the moral high ground if you think you are a Stoic versus an Epicurean. And that's the balance, right? So I have always chased, for lack of a better word, that balance. And so even in the highs of highs of my parents' success, and they've had their highs and their lows, like any human being, even in the highs and lows of our own life together, I've tried, I don't always succeed at finding that balance.

1:45:35Do you think you need to retain that balance throughout? Or is it okay to allow yourself to drift between both the sides? I definitely drift between both. And in fact, I remember one of the first things my mother said to me, oh, what do you like about Rishi? And I said, he just allows me to have more fun. And we were talking earlier how our parents are different. My family is more reserved, intellectual, quieter. I'm not saying that's bad and one is good. But I met Rishi, who was lots of energy and lots of excitement about so many different things. And so I thought that was amazing, you know, a different way of looking at life.

1:46:27So I've always, I haven't, the balance comes from embracing both, I think. Because then you say, oh, this doesn't quite feel right all the time, or this doesn't quite feel right. And then you might say, well, how do you know? How do you know? So I think there's a feeling inside, whether you want to call that intuition, it's gut, it's a kind of deep feeling you get. And I've had that as a young person. So I just... I have a theory for this. Yeah. I feel like us South Indians never saw war as frequently as the North Indians did. We didn't see conflict. I have the exact same theory. And people who don't know how long they're going to live for.

1:47:08Yeah, embrace the moment. Embrace the moment. I think we have to learn from them to embrace the moment a bit more. Completely. Completely. In fact, I would say, I remember even in our wedding, my mother and I, we had these kinds of discussions. And we both love history. And that's exactly what her and I said is, in general, North Indian weddings tend to be bolder and quite fun. And South Indian weddings seem more tame. in comparison. And you're absolutely right that you have to make the most of what you have when you have it. So again, no moral kind of judgment about it. But have that, but know that life is not just about that.

1:47:58Yeah. Right? Yeah, so maybe middle ground is the... The middle path, yeah. Almost always the answer. Almost always. For so many things. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. You have to develop that ability not to get carried away by success, but equally not to be so deflated by failure. You know, that said, when thinking about failure, there's good and bad ways to deal with it. You've got to turn it into something positive, but that requires a mindset where if something bad happens your story the story you tell yourself about it can't be one which is victim-centered where like this bad thing happened because I was a victim of this or victim of that and all these bad things happened to me you have to be able to more objectively look at it and just self-reflect and say what did I not quite get right what did I misjudge and turn it then and then you can turn it into something positive where you say, okay, now how do I improve my process for the future?

1:49:07And you've always said this to me. You said you'd be kinder to yourself because I'd be beating myself up. And you always say, be kinder to yourself. I always say to Rishi, I say this to the girls because we have two teenage girls. They're 13 and 14. And I say, the person you have to be kindest to first is yourself because then you understand deep inside what that actually means before you can practice it in the real world. And I know we talk about that a lot. And remember, if you're in these jobs, if you're leading, most of the decisions that you make, almost by definition, are 50-50 decisions.

1:49:44And if they were not, someone else would have made it. And so the only decisions that come to you are the exceptionally hard 50-50 ones. And in terms of being kind to yourself, you have to recognize you're not going to get all of them right. and you are in that position and someone else said this to me a very successful technology executive said this to me in the early meeting he had with me actually in Downing Street and he said that you're in this position because your ability to make those decisions is on average better than most other people your judgment is on average better you wouldn't be sitting here I wouldn't be talking to you so trust that and have some confidence in it and then when things don't go right as long as you're honestly self-reflective about it recognize good and bad outcomes of the same process, reflect and then think what you can learn from it, take away for the next time.

1:50:35You know, that is a very, I mean, I learned how to do that, not perfectly, but because I'm still helping. And you're still learning. But that is a very necessary part of being a good leader. No matter what you do, by the way. No matter what you do, it's not just political leadership. I just, understanding these failures, how to cope with them, how to then turn them into something positive so that you grow and it doesn't consume you. because you can get into a negative spiral after it where it's very damaging. I've become really fascinated by this term called metacognition, right? Which is thinking about the thinking.

1:51:09So look at an outcome and you say, okay, outcome X happened. Why did it happen? Why did I behave the way I did? Did I deploy my strengths and weaknesses? Why are those my strengths versus these? And then regulating your thinking, meta-regulation right i thought i think that is um metacognitive regulation meta i just think that's just a fascinating way for where humans are heading i find most words which have meta in the beginning are very interesting exactly let's just add metacognition it sounds good Metacognitive regulation. I must say, you both make a really good case for marriage. That's good to hear on some days when it doesn't feel like...

1:52:02We're going to clip that and play it as a ringtone. Yeah, exactly. It's so weird you said that because that's exactly what I was going to say. That's going to be our ringtone. We're very yin and yang. But it comes with more friction, in a way, because... We're talking about it right at the beginning. Because we approach things differently and we are quite different. But there's a... I'm going to give... You know, there's a common set of values. And so the product of it, I think, is better as a result of the combination of us on most things. I'll give you a... We get to a better answer. I'll give you a silly example.

1:52:38I feel like I have to say this before your deep thought. Okay, I'm going to finish the deep thought. We turned 30 around the same time. We were in LA at the time and this new ice cream shop opened. And I said to Rish, oh, you know, they have like 30 flavors. It's all natural, et cetera. And he's like, oh, no, I just like vanilla. So we go there and they do have 30 flavors, right? Like Chazwan peppercorn ice cream. Wow, I love that. Yeah, passion fruit, I don't know, black pepper, all sorts of things. and I mean Rishi picks vanilla and I'm like what do you mean and he's like well what would you pick and on purpose I picked the most bizarre flavor that is because that's kind of my approach to life like give me a give me a situation and I will look at it with a totally risk-taking mindset whereas Rishi wouldn't, that wouldn't be your first step.

1:53:41No. You wouldn't say what is the most risky thing to do. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but you would say, well, what's the sensible thing? The rest of that story... Right. That all sounds great. The rest of that story is... You hated your flavour? You didn't, she didn't like the thing, right? So we've left and then she doesn't like it. Okay, so we're fine, there's a next time. No, no, no, then she ate mine, right? And then I'm stuck, not because I'm forced to eat this thing that I don't like. You, you know. So, yeah, it's all very well. That's the yin and yang. Yeah, the yin and yang. When I think of marriage, I feel like it has worked so well.

1:54:18In a certain way, it's a great way to ensure against loneliness and always have attention and validation, the concept of family. Because you don't get the peaks and the troughs, but you get a little bit every day. I'm trying to think. I mean, I think, I mean, I, without question, could not function if we weren't married, right? In terms of professionally function, not just personally. I mean, because I can't imagine doing all the things that I've had to do on my own. So, to your point, loneliness, not just in a social companionship perspective. which I actually, I mean, that's nice, but it's much deeper than that.

1:55:11It's like having this, you know, people talk about life partner, whatever the word you want to use. It's called soulmate. The business partnership, but I'm not even trying to get to that bit. I think actually almost more practical. I think there is that, and that is obviously wonderful. But the slightly more practical aspect of it is someone who you can share these very difficult things with and who can support you, you need it. Or not just support. I think it brings out the best in you. Yeah, and sees you in a way that not everyone sees. And where the sum is greater than the parts, right? So certainly for us.

1:55:54And that is particularly acute, I think, for everybody. but if you're in one of these very high pressure situations, you can't do that on your own. Well, I certainly could not have done it on my own. Who's not your therapist. Yeah, maybe these days you could see a therapist, but it's not the same. For me, it's a bit like that. Yeah, probably a bit tricky if you're prime minister. But I'll tell you the counter to that, right? So we have together faced ups and downs while staying true to who we are, etc. But one of the criticisms I've faced is, well, what's your identity, right? Because as you rightly said, you're your father's daughter, you're your husband's wife.

1:56:48and so it's got me thinking what's identity about how do you define yourself and is it is it based on where you live what language you speak what you eat but we're saying you're different right Right.

1:57:17And you know, lately I've been getting a lot of pushback on my accent. Right? You grew up in Bangalore, you didn't have a British accent. Do you understand? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not allowed again. You are Helena. Just like being at home.

1:57:47Anyway, I'll come back to that accent thing in a second actually. But I... Does Nichols speak more like your mum or dad? I would assume more like my dad. My sort of dad, right?

1:58:02So where do you get your identity from? So for me, my identity comes...

1:58:15And from genuinely having impact. And I'll unpack that. So it's how can I give to the communities in which I live? How can I stay true to my values? How can I honor my heritage? and so whatever we do professionally even how we raise our children I'm constantly thinking I'm probably less worried than most about some of the more I'm not going to use the word superficial some of the more tangible concepts of identity like what food we eat or what language we speak or how you dress, how I sound.

1:59:08But staying true to your values, staying true to what matters most to you, that's how I've defined my identity versus it being trying to match someone else's or trying to meet societal expectations of what identity should be, right? And so like with my accent, for example, actually, let's take a step back. I remember Rishi and I came to India for the G20. And it was incredibly emotional for me, Nikhil, because I was coming to the place where I was raised. I was coming to the place that defined my heritage, of which I'm very proud of. I was coming to a place that was my former home, but in a way representing a different home, right?

2:00:16Right? So how do you handle that? And that's, that really got me thinking about, well, in a scenario like this, who are you? Are you British or are you Indian? Are you neither? Are you both? and it reminds me of what I think PM Modi said, I think in 2015, maybe when he was in the UK for that Wembley event. And he said, you know, the Indians who are living in the UK are all part of the living bridge, the Indian diaspora.

2:00:58and they connect Britain to India and vice versa. And so I'm but one of the people living on this bridge, you know, the bridge that, you know, when you think of a bridge, it connects two places. It doesn't belong just to one place or the other. So for me, when I think deeply about who I am in the context of current day, I am part of that living bridge. I feel incredibly at home in India. I am incredibly emotional about my, I use the word emotional because it moves me, my heritage. I'm incredibly proud of my heritage, how I was raised. But I have also had these incredibly meaningful experiences in the UK.

2:01:48that's where we're raising our family and I am deeply committed to that community as well so the things that I'm engaging in now and I'm doing them in areas that mean things to me so in arts culture history entrepreneurship creativity these are areas that speak to me and I'm constantly looking at how can I honor both these places and play a small role in bringing them together. So long-winded way is I'm very much a Bangalore girl with a British accent. You're not as big an RCB fan as me. True. Jainagar girl. Yeah. Jainagar girl. Yes, yes, yes. We probably went to many of the same restaurants because we're similar age.

2:02:40Yeah, well. I still think you're quite a bit younger but you know 39, 45 I know I know but it's like when you hit 40 same decade yeah 80 MTR MTR is not in Jainagar MTR is more near Baswan Gudi I think yeah okay fine Jainagar used to have which ones do you think you might in Jainagar I would say there was a place called Dosa Camp yes in fourth block yes I remember the day it opened they put everything in the dosa from mushrooms to baby corn Yeah, cheese. Whatever you can think of. Yeah, yeah. That ice cream place was presumably not there when you were growing up. Corner house. Corner house. Corner house.

2:03:17Oh, it was there. Oh, right. Yeah, we go there. Yes. I used to eat. My kids love corner house. They had this thing called death by chocolate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They still have it. My kids had it two days ago. Yeah. Adigas was there back then? Adigas was there. I can't remember where exactly it was. Yeah. I don't know. I think the first time I came, your dad thought I should have this Indo-Chinese food. Yeah. I mean, that's all, yeah. You guys live near that park, right? Near the ground. Yeah. Not park, ground. Yeah, ground. I used to go there to play cricket. Yeah. Yeah. I have played cricket now.

2:03:53Yeah. On my first trip, less now. When I used to come. Can you get by in India without security and stuff like that? It is the most incredible thing when I'm here because people are so kind. They are so welcoming. They're so supportive. And it is humbling every time. So I do as best job I can of trying to talk to as many people as possible and say thank you to them and chat with them. So it's a wonderful and overwhelming experience every time. Well, you make us look very good. I hope you keep winning and doing better. No, it's good. No, no, we love. It's been a great work. Good week at the summit.

2:04:39we have i probably now now that i'm a bit freer it's nice because we can be here more often and where i've been in india almost every few months for the past year or bit you know it's been really lovely and we've been home we've taken the kids on different places they saw taj mahal last year for the first time i've done lots of work things here we and then we were and then the cricket you know i've i've seen i've been in bombay for cricket with your dad we went to the IPL final. So it's been great. We did at Jaypur Literary Festival last year. So now we're getting a chance to enjoy a bit more of all these things.

2:05:15I'm going to ask you another selfish question. I think a big motive I have, I'm using myself as the placeholder, but I think a lot more young people need to participate in politics. I think you're like testament to that. I think it's a great thing in society and more needs to happen. when you become a politician and you see these really big problems I'll be a little specific to England and you know that huge case but say fixing the NHS reducing debt, reducing inflation for somebody sitting on the outside a young guy who wants to be in politics when you go in and try to fix these problems how hard is it?

2:06:03is it that one person can actually change stuff? Yeah. Lots of thoughts. So I think if you want to do it, you need to have resilience. You need to have patience and you need to be driven by service rather than ambition. You need resilience because it is unforgiving. In this day and age with social media, you need to have thick skin. And we've talked all about how you cope with failure, but just coping with the day-to-day criticism, you have to be able to deal with that. And partly the best way to deal with it, by the way, is not to engage with a lot of it because we're all human, right? You can have the thickest skin in the world.

2:06:46We're all human. But you do need that resilience. You need patience because I'll come to this in a second. Things take longer than you would think, certainly longer than the private sector. and look, all politicians, if we're being honest, are motivated by both ambition and duty or public service. I think every politician being honest, there's both. Personal ambition? I think, yes, personal ambition. I think if they're being honest, I certainly am. Most politicians are, they're motivated by both. You just need to know where you sit on that scale and if you are overly weighted towards personal ambition, I think you will not be successful.

2:07:31People will see through it and you won't be able to do the things that are necessary to succeed. So I think those are the three preconditions for getting involved. Then I'll answer your other question about can young people do it or how do they think about change? You know, there's some things that I think some, not all, but some young people misunderstand about how to bring about change. And I think one is there's this kind of almost cinematic notion that change happens in a moment. Yeah. It's a speech. You have to remember we've grown up on movies which one guy becomes the prime minister for a day and fixes the country.

2:08:16That's it. Great story. And change is less about a moment. It's more about a movement, right? It takes time. And the other thing is, you know, voice matters, but change comes about through participation. And again, there's this romantic notion that change comes about because you're the outsider, the rebel, the disruptor. Actually, the change happens more because people become part of the process. They become part of the institutions. They change from the inside through a period of time and hard work. And that's what I try and get across to young people. That's, for the most part, how substantive change happens.

2:09:05It happens when you decide to come inside and be part of the process and take the time to bring it about. the kind of romantic cinematic notion that it can happen from the outside being the disruptor with one speech or amazing protest you know that it works in the movies i think it's less about real life which is why young people should if they do want to change things for the better do it through through government and come into public service and come in come into politics to come into politics and then do what and then and then other politicians sorry convince other politicians i I think, let me give you an example I use.

2:09:48Because people say, oh, you can only have change if you become prime minister or everyone gets to become prime minister. And I say that's not true. And the example I give young people who think about becoming an MP is of a guy called William Wilberforce. And he was an MP in Yorkshire, same as me. And my predecessor as a member of parliament wrote a beautiful biography about him. Now, William Wilberforce was someone who essentially abolished the slave trade in the UK and then internationally and then helped abolish slavery. He was never a cabinet member, let alone prime minister or chancellor. He made a decision to do it only as a backbench MP because he believed that would give him the freedom and the moral authority and the time to focus on this one thing.

2:10:34He also had patience. from the first time he entered Parliament and made a speech about it. It took 20 years for him to get a bill passed in Parliament to abolish the slave trade, and then another 20-odd years to have Parliament declare that slavery itself was illegal. And then he died three days after that. So his career on this issue spanned 40 years, which the big meaningful, the first meaningful thing happened after 20. And during that period, he had all the things that we've been talking about. He had to cope with failure. Parliament voted more than 10 times, no, no, no, no, no. But like we discussed earlier, if everybody has to have the incentive of personal ambition being met, how do I incentivize a young guy who will only find that personal ambition need being met if he sits in a position of power?

2:11:29If he sits in a... Position of power. um well well then this goes back to what we were saying before there are lots of different ways to make a difference right in life there are lots of different ways to have impact but if you want to have impact on that scale the best way to do it is through government or through the political process and that's what i'm saying but even though you i'm saying you need to do it through that we don't need to but the best way to do it is through the political process it doesn't mean you have to be the Prime Minister or in the Cabinet, what I'd say is there are hundreds of members of Parliament.

2:12:04That is a different bar to becoming the Prime Minister. But this individual, William Wilberforce, as one of 600 odd members, however many it was in those days, hundreds of members of Parliament, was able to bring about this very significant change. And he didn't do it on his own either. He touches on what we were saying before. He built a movement around him. Other people played their part. Now he was the person at the front. But I think it's a really instructive story for young people to read. And I was inspired by it, because I didn't know I was going to end up in cabinet or be prime minister.

2:12:37But it was, you know, as long as as well as what Akhsar's dad said to me, it was a great story of how one person can you say can one person, it takes more than one person, of course, as a team, but you know, this was one person who made it his mission to do it. And it goes back to what you said earlier, Nikhil, about different motivations being complimentary, and actually was talking about this, and I, he had a moral view that slavery was wrong. And that's what motivated him. And he was a person of faith. But he was smart, right? And he recognized that wasn't the best way to persuade everyone.

2:13:13And actually, he came up with an economic case as to why slavery was wrong. And he came up with a patriotic security case why the slave trade was wrong because Britain was in a war with France. And he was saying, well, people are giving slaves to French. They'll be able to come and beat Britain. So we should bang the trade. And he was clever that way, right? For him, it was a moral mission. But ultimately, he knew some people would be motivated by different things. So he was able to bring all of that to bear. And ultimately, as I said, have the patience, have the resilience, the storytelling that we talked about but based actually oddly as well he was a great orator you know you and I talking about learning from that but there was another guy called Thomas Clarkson who did all the hard work of documenting what was happening in these camps in the slave plantations on the boats where people have been traded all of which was awful and just painstakingly He documented all this detail and hard work, which ultimately then became part of these stories.

2:14:14So I think it's a really powerful way to illustrate how change comes about, how politics is the best way, parliamentary processes are the best way to bring about massive change, but also illustrating that you don't need to be the prime minister or in the cabinet to do it. But I totally agree. But I think maybe, Nikhil, what you're getting at is what kind of people should go into politics? Who should get into politics? No, I'm thinking for our audience. Like the people you're speaking to are young, Indian, wannabe entrepreneurs. If I have to convince one of them to become a politician, I need to meet their need for validation and their personal ambition, need both.

2:14:56I'm trying to put something in each box. In the validation and ambition box. But I... First of all, I don't think they need to give up being an entrepreneur. Mm-hmm. Right? We talked about it before. I think people are more effective as politicians or in government, having brought that experience into parliament with them or into government with them. So for the people listening, I would say, go build your business. You're going to learn an extraordinary amount. But I'm figuring how to trigger them to enter politics today. After they've built the business or right now? Right now.

2:15:40well, do they need to? Why do they need to do it today? This is the thing. I mean, sure, some people might want to. My personal bias is for people to do something else first. And I don't think, and this goes back to what we were saying before, there's this rush, rush, rush. Build your business. Why? Because it will give you that validation that you want. And skills. And set of practical skills. and financial security and independence. And my word, what an incredible platform that is to then enter politics where you have so much more understanding and self-awareness of who you are. You've already got that validation, which means you'll enter the political arena with so much more personal self-confidence, the resilience of having had the ups and downs of building a business and doing something and then using that experience to benefit the country.

2:16:33But that motivation has to be one where you are getting into it because you want to make your country a better place. That has to be at the core of it. That's okay to be ambitious about it. That is true for many, many young people. But what I'm trying to also say is for a country where the average age is 28, we need more people who are 28 in Parliament. Look, I can see that. I can see that overall. I can, my point about as an individual, I think you're better off having the experience. I can see if everyone does that and then nobody is in Parliament at a young age. I can see that. But maybe, Rish, it comes back to that passion thing, which you were saying so eloquently about William Wilberforce, right?

2:17:22I don't know the history, so pardon me. He entered Parliament at 28. Right. So he, thank you. Thank you, Chief. He had this deep-seated passion for abolishing slavery. That mattered more to him than anything else. And in a country as large as India, where you said the average age is 28, I am sure there are young people or 28-year-olds who, There are at least some 28-year-olds who will have these moral missions. There will be. Yeah. But they don't need to, this is again what we were saying before. Yeah. They don't need to just have some moral or social mission. It's a great mission if someone is listening to you but cares passionately about entrepreneurship.

2:18:18Mm-hmm. Right? Then, you know, that's not a social, necessarily a kind of social outcome. But... going into parliament to make sure that India is a fantastic country for entrepreneurs, to encourage all the people listening to you to grow their businesses. They may not make the money an entrepreneur. But they're passionate about entrepreneurship, and they recognize that entrepreneurship is important to India succeeding. Go into parliament and be the champion for that. Be the champion for small business, for example. What does it mean to make India the, I mean, India is already a very vibrant entrepreneurial ecosystem, but we can all get better.

2:18:57But that can be your passion. It doesn't have to be, oh, it's fine. There will be some people who have a more social, classic. Sure, you're right. No, no, I agree. I mean, we're also leaning into who we are, right? Like, because you're, I'm kind of thinking altruism. But I think, you know, for lots of people who are entrepreneurial minded or technology minded, those things can be put to incredible, positive good for India. So you can be excited and passionate about those areas and think, actually, well, I'm going to use politics as the vehicle to make sure India and Indians prosper when it comes to technology, when it comes to entrepreneurship, right?

2:19:32That can be your mission in Parliament to do. And the validation comes from, I mean, you'll speak better than me, but if you can get some kind of law passed, right, that makes it easier for small businesses to be incorporated. That makes it easier for, not to get into controversial topics, but social media to be regulated, whatever it is, right? And when you do one thing, when you contribute to changing one clause and one law that's passing parliament that will unlock something special for entrepreneurs or technologists, for the rest of your life, you will have done that for 1.4 billion people.

2:20:05It's a pretty big... I mean, talk about impacted scale. I mean, you're talking about validate, well, people want validation. You know, sure, it's great to have a company and a unicorn IPO, that is great. Changing a law that is going to impact 1.4 billion people and how your country progresses. You think about the compounding benefit of that. Like that is, you know, sure, that value doesn't accrue to you personally. The monetary value doesn't. And that's where the service bit comes in. Right, that's where you have to be motivated. The societal value is not in the unicorn billion here, 100 million here.

2:20:37It's in the hundreds and hundreds of millions. Please, eat while it's hot. Millions and millions. I'm excited to be 28 and go into politics now. There are some, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know the guy in our constituency? South Bangalore is quite young. Oh, is he? Yes, his name is… Tejisni. Tejisni. A friend of mine, he's a young chap. Yeah. He must be 30 now. The other reason that people should think about it is…

2:21:07Notwithstanding everything I said before about experience and everything else, it's differentiating. Mm-hmm. If you are one of very few young people, Mm-hmm. you are differentiated in part. Public adoration is a big point of validation, which does come with being a politician. I think that is different in different countries. That's a tricky path. Yeah, that is in different countries. Maybe more so here. Thank you. You know, because in lots of places in the West, it's quite unforgiving. The day-to-day experience of most politicians is hard, right? Because of things like social media and the criticism and things like that.

2:21:50It can be very rewarding and fulfilling. Of course it can be. But it's not every day. It's like all sunshine and rainbows. It comes back to what I wrote about in my Stanford Business School lesson. And in fact, I did write about this. The solution is education. So here's what I mean.

2:22:15You know, when you think of a society and how it progresses. There are many different ways, but you want to make sure that the society that you live in, that the government of the land, of the nation, provides sufficient security so that the basic needs are met, right? Now, I know that isn't always easy, but that's sort of the focus. And then you think, well, okay, then how can we progress as a society? and to me the answer is education because education in my mind is one of the things that allows equality of opportunity to emerge um in a way has that been solved for because education has gotten democratized with internet and ai and all of that like i never went to college yeah i can choose to pick a book i like to read and read it yeah it's not that expensive because you're Fundamentally curious.

2:23:15So I define education more broadly, right? But Nicol's point is right. And I was talking about it at the summit. It's one of the, to me, one of the incredible things that AI can do. It isn't just about raising the ceiling. It can lift the floor for humanity. And the most obvious ways it can do that are democratizing access to healthcare and education. where you've got, now it is possible that before too long, every single child will be able to have the best possible teacher for them. And that's the job of philanthropy, of government,

2:23:58of different organizations to enable those outcomes, right? So, yes, any child who lives in a certain society should have access to what I think is a broad sense of education. Of course, that's letters and numbers, but it's also curiosity. It's problem thinking skills. Because when you have that in your toolkit, that's when you create entrepreneurs, you create innovation, you create wealth in so many different ways. And then the tax is kind of the next step. But I think how do we first create that equality of opportunity so that more people are able to create that wealth in the first place? But even with education, barring the risk capital, if asset prices continue to inflate at the pace that they are, it'll be very hard for the inequality to come down.

2:24:58I met this interesting guy, Michael Milken. He spent a lot of money and time coming up with this plan where he wants to give every child who's born a certain amount of equity. Exactly. That's what I was just going to say. Equity in the beginning. I mean, look, this is your old life, right? But trying to give more people a stake in the system, a financial stake, is a good thing. I think even the US is considering this. The US is going down this line. Is Michael Dell doing something a lot? Michael Dell has helped part fund some of it. And it's actually some of the work that motivates our charity in the UK that we've set up, the Richmond Project, which is around numeracy.

2:25:35Because if people have better, stronger number skills, then they can be more financially literate. And the research from Stanford actually tells us some of these foundational skills you need to understand are inflation and compounding. They are two fundamental things that lots of people do not understand. And if they don't, that inequality will widen. Because if you understand those things, then you recognize that inflation erodes the purchasing power. And if you understand the power of compound interest or compounding in general, and you understand that when you're young, Those two things. Of course, to up to this point, you need to have had a good education to have a decent job.

2:26:19But you need to then think with your, I need to save. There is an element of saving. This is how I should save. This is why I need to save. That compounds over time. That's what we need to do more of. Otherwise, that gap will keep growing. Maybe I should take education back and say learning. Being curious. How do you teach someone to be curious? Yeah. I have to think about that. We, yeah. Milken, Michael Milken had this interesting thought that if you start somebody off with, say, I don't know,$1 ,000 in a S &P index fund, like an ETF, psychologically, them knowing that they have something, something to lose, psychologically changes behavior significantly.

2:27:03More than the cost of the$1 ,000. I think there's probably something to that. And our way of contributing to that is through giving people the confidence they need with numbers, and therefore financial literacy, so they know what to do with it. And even if not everyone is going to be able to be given the$1 ,000, so either you need the people who are able to save to recognize they should save, how to save, that it's worth their while saving. So I'm a big believer in that. Your point is interesting on curiosity because we talk about that a lot. And I actually think they're slightly different things.

2:27:48Because actually it's very big on just being curious for the sake of being curious and trying to instill that in the kids. Learning for the sake of learning. I'm a little bit more learned for a purpose, a bit practical applied. But I've come to realize that I think one of the most compounding skills that you can develop is exactly this. We call it learnability, which is a little bit different from your curiosity, but they're linked. And I just think about my own career, you know, traverse finance, government, technology policy. the compounding skill is being able to learn new things. And I think that is only going to be more relevant in this new world.

2:28:35So when I talk to young people now and I say, just learn how to learn. And that to me is education. So it's not about a degree. It's not about a fixed point thing. Maybe the solution lies in what you said earlier. You brought up Greek philosophy. Maybe AI will solve this problem as well. because in times of abundance, we go back to, like the Greeks did in their time, philosophy and anthropology. It was an entire profession to sit and think about life. And that, to me, is what makes us more human. Maybe AI and productivity gains and abundance will get us to the point where everybody has more than enough.

2:29:16So then we can sit and think about that. What was said when you and Elon had that conversation? Yeah. It's a very utopian way of the world. It is a very utopian way of the world. And until we get to that point, I think people's careers will keep changing. So this ability to keep learning new things, I think is an underestimated, very powerful quality to have. How do you see AI in your lives? What do you use it for? Oh. Like the biggest use case? biggest use case, I mean, for me is research, right? I was going to say research. Thinking about policy and researching things. And likely Claude because you're consulting with that.

2:30:01Exactly. So the Claude is what I use the most. Have you given Claude all the connectors access and allowed it to? I'm starting to do that now. So I haven't yet. I've got this course that I'm about to do to start using it for, I want to start using it with Excel. I've given it a lot of access and now I'm worried because I don't even go to my email inbox anymore because I've given it access to all my emails and chat and all of that. So I ask it, are there any important emails that I missed today? And it saves me the time to scroll through. That's scary. It knows every word of every email. So what we're just developing in the office is, so it has access to, well, actually, and Copilot.

2:30:46So we've just got Copilot as well. because I want Copilot to be able to, in our office SharePoint,

2:30:57OneDrive, to be able to, because it needs to know what we've done and what we've got so that it can build on it. So that for us is quite important. So just getting that Copilot integration where it can go into the folder and I can say, look, here are all these things, do X. That is what we're doing next. I've never learned how to code. So on my... But now you don't need to. No, now I need to learn how to vibe code. Yeah. Right. So I've got a video course that I'm about to start. Can I tell you from somebody who went through it recently, I don't know anything about coding or programming. I hired this guy recently who spends an hour or two with me every day.

2:31:37Yeah. And we were having these conversations and we started with ClaudeBot. Yeah. So this is a little bit, now it's called OpenClaw, but this is a little, I don't know, scary because you kind of like host it on a tiny... On this Mac mini, right? Yeah, and you give it access to everything. But the thing I realized about prompting is even when you use Cloud Code for the first time, like how specific you are while you prompt is a skill set in itself, which I don't have. So somebody said it really well. I was watching the interview of the guy who built Claude Water Open Claw now. He said it's like playing the piano.

2:32:22You can't expect somebody to sit in front of the piano and prompt for the very first time. Or give up when you try to play for the very first time and not try again. You need like a few lessons. But it's not too many. I've done like maybe a month of lessons. That's about it. it feels like there is that point where you cross that line where you start to feel more comfortable with it. But I don't think it's week one. I think it's week three. Yeah. No, I think it will take some time. It'll go to week one soon. Yeah. Well, that will be good. But that to me seems like an important new skill to develop.

2:33:00Yeah. Right? Now, it is perfectly plausible that I should be able to create software that will do certain... There's so many things that I do. Yeah. And I'm starting to figure out, but I need someone to help me understand how do I think about all the things I do, which ones will lend themselves to being basically dealt with and then learn how to build the thing to do it. So that is my next thing to do. But the thing actually, I mean, you do your thing as well, but we go back to education. That is the thing that I find incredibly helpful at home. It's transformative. It's transformative to be able to teach our kids.

2:33:40I am not a good, she's an excellent teacher. I'm not a good teacher. It's one thing to know something. It's a different thing to be able to explain it and teach others. It's hard to, yeah. But this is what I always thought with schooling in college. I didn't go. I mean, it's natural that I take this perspective. But when you don't go to a formal institution, you can pick what books you want to read. Yeah. Yeah. like structure takes that away. And I feel like in many ways it's a disadvantage. Which is a disadvantage? Like going to a structured institution and being told what to read and how to read.

2:34:17It also depends on the personality, I think, a little bit. But now we're getting to... How self-motivated... I wasn't even talking about motivation. As much as, like even between us, you like more structure. I like less structure. Yeah, you respond better to... So I respond better when I don't have as many guardrails. But if the entire education system is evolving to be a place where you come in, you interact with peers, but actually it's self-directed learning guided by AI, then there's a different way to learn. And it probably would have suited you and been better that way. But helping our kids with learning.

2:34:58So that's what I did the other week when you were away. Oh, yes. But I've done that increasingly. Where I haven't... They had physics. Our daughter had physics tests a couple of weeks ago. I haven't done any physics since I was 16. And I didn't know off the top of my head what she was doing. But I popped the paper into Claude. It comes back with a question-by-question explanatory guide so I can then help her. And then it created a revision booklet at the end that I could then use the next day to help her prep for the test. If that wasn't there, it would have been a right pain to try and do. So I saw that.

2:35:43And then I see them and we see our kids, we've encouraged them to use it, but we've tried to say to them and supervise it. We say, look, it's got to help you think. It can't do the thinking for you. It can explain things to you so you learn, but you need to have done the thinking, especially when they're young. One discipline I have is I never use AI to write. Yeah? No. And it's old-fashioned, I get it. On pen and paper? No, meaning... Type. I type, yeah. But I just can't do that. I just can't do it. And what do you write about now? Whatever I'm writing about. You know, currently I'm involved in arts and culture and doing some storytelling around cultural institutions in the UK.

2:36:34I'm doing some work around fashion, entrepreneurship and business. I use Google for research. but I'll tell you where I'm starting to think with AI but I don't use Claude or anyone else to help me write like the thesis of any argument I write myself even the speeches etc I write them all out but what I've been fascinated is

2:37:09again as someone who's on the outside can AI be creative and what then is even creativity right for a long time in the early days of this whole evolution of AI, people would say, well, AI can code faster than you solve mathematical problems, etc., but it can't be creative. And so I've been amazed how I can have philosophical discussions with Claude and it will come up with the most creative, thoughtful answers. I mean, amazing. What is creative in your view? Is it contrarian behavior that's creative? Putting multiple thoughts together, right? Not just giving me a list of facts or kind of obvious answers, but connecting the dots.

2:38:08pulling not facts but also even emotion I would in a way in the new world define creativity by contrarian behavior more so than yesterday because a lot of these models are trained on data which always projects a certain path yes that's right yeah yeah yeah Yeah. Because they're trained on a stock of knowledge and information. This is, I guess, how will they be able to come up with something new. You used to manage money before politics. I used to be an investor. As a fund manager, I'm guessing you researched a whole bunch of industries and stocks. After becoming a politician, did you realize there's an information arbitrage that is still at play that makes one fund manager better than another?

2:39:11What did you believe as a fund manager that you became a politician and got access to everything and you were like, this is stupid? I, you know, I didn't, I didn't ever think about it like that. the similarity I found between politics and fund management was this concept of the noise of the market. So the investing I did was always fundamental long-term investing like Warren Buffett. And he has this whole mantra about ignoring the short-term noise of the market and quarterly earnings. He hasn't done very well in the last decade, I would like to say. I haven't seen the numbers for a while. But over his career, it's a pretty incredible track record.

2:39:55I think he did well when information arbitrage was more at play. I saw that article. I saw someone had done that analysis. I haven't gone into it in detail. I mean, I always found him, his letters, his approach for investing, I'm a total devotee and disciple of. I've been to Omaha for the shareholder meeting, etc. et cetera.

2:40:21So I, but the similarity was there. You have the politics, it's got lots of the day-to-day noise, media, social media, this, that, and the other. And I always tried to, helpful reminder from your investing days to focus on the long-term fundamentals of what you're doing. I found that quite a helpful analogy. On the information arbitrage, I didn't, you know, I don't know if that's, you know, I didn't necessarily see that. I mean, it wasn't as if... Clearly, if you're involved in making decisions in government, you have access to information, which is why you clearly should not be trading. That should be illegal and is illegal.

2:41:02But beyond that, I'm not sure I saw. Because largely what's happening in the political process is it's commented on, it's in the news, there's a million people talking about it. So it's perfectly possible for people to figure out the dynamics of a policy as it's going through parliament or something like that. That was my general sense of it. But the other thing from the investing side of it is, I mean, this thing about long run and short run. And I thought that was because, you know, you're trying because what gave us or my type of investing an advantage was that focus on the long term. So you could and if you had capital that allowed you to take a long term view, you know, you could ignore the short term volatility of things.

2:41:59Confident that over time, the fundamentals and the valuation would align. That was interesting because it you saw what happened in the financial crisis. And obviously, you try and do the right thing in the long term. But really, the short term, someone put it to me well. They said that the long term is really just a succession of short terms that you either survived or were not kicked out of. And actually, I realized over time, there isn't, at least in politics, maybe it's more broadly in business, there's less of a kind of conflict between the short term and the long term. They're really just, they all fit into a kind of a nested time frame.

2:42:38And I think as long as your short-term actions need to be consistent with your long-term direction is what you want. It's not that you can't do things in the short term. It's just that your weekly rhythm has to align with your one-year plan, which aligns with your three-year strategy, with your five-year vision. Those things have to be consistent and have a consistency and a connection to them. The problem is when you have this tension between short-term and long-term is when the short-term goal or short-term thing you're doing is misaligned with the long-term direction. But it's wrong to ignore the short-term.

2:43:13The other analogy is you need to do the minimum to survive in the short-term so that you can be around to benefit in the long-term. So in the financial sense, if you don't have the liquidity in the short-term, then you might be right in the long-term, but you'll be out of business. Right. And so in that financial sense, right, if you're levered or you don't have capital that is secure. And in politics, you need to, you know, say you need to do enough in the short term to earn the right to be there over time. So you can't just kind of head in the sand and say, look, this will all work out in five years.

2:43:49Come and see me then. You need to be delivering enough things in the short term that are consistent with the long run goal to kind of allow you to survive, to make that long run argument. So I think in both cases, you have to recognize the kind of connection between the short term and the long term. You can't exclude the short term and just say, I'm focused on the long term. You guys like chocolate? Yes. Okay. I told you, you can always count on Rishi to eat. I'm very full, but I will always make a bit of space for some chocolate. Will you ask Hari Om chocolate? Okay, last part of today. Yeah.

2:44:27I'm going to ask you both one question to finish it off. Okay. I don't know what the time is. What is the time? How are we doing? Oh, gosh. 10 o 'clock. Oh, wow. We've done well. It's been a few hours. Yes.

2:44:43Okay. Last part of today. One question to both of you. To Rishi. If you had to... Today, after knowing... Okay, let me preface this question by saying... We spoke about you coming into the position of Prime Minister. How was it to lose that position? What did you learn from it? Same question for both? No, different one. What's your question for her?

2:45:13Okay, let me do Akshita first and we'll come back. Yeah, no, yeah, fine. Okay. Somebody said, in the end, civilizations perish because they listen to the politicians a lot more than they listen to their poets. Okay. Shall I go? You have time. Are you saying, do I agree or disagree? Yeah. Do you want me to go? I do mine. Sure, go. Go, go, go.

2:45:44So we've talked about failure a couple of times through this.

2:45:51failure in that way is very hard when you lose an election I mean it's hard because it is public it's extremely public it comes at the end of a very grueling intense period of a campaign which is pretty unforgiving and because it's public, you're failing in front of your friends and your family.

2:46:25And you have a lot of responsibility for the other members of your party who, as a result of that loss, are no longer MPs. So their livelihoods, their job, the thing that gives them purpose is gone. And in many cases that is not to do with the personal job that they have done. Give them a chocolate. Don't have that. That's just like a protein thing, which is pretending to be healthy. That's your breakfast. Really chocolate. Okay, here we go. You know, so it is hard.

2:47:00And I'd be lying if I didn't say it wasn't hard. And it takes some time to recover from. But then, you know, for me, what got me through that period, including that bit, was just remembering why I did it. And, you know, that weekend when we talked about it just before I became prime minister, that situation was very tough. Inflation was at a 10-year high.

2:47:43My party was 36 points behind in the polls. It had just been this leadership thing.

2:47:54And if you were just motivated by ambition and about winning and losing and position, then you would never have taken the job in the first place. I did the job because I felt at that moment it was my duty because I was better placed to, or I was well placed to make a difference in the country at a difficult time. And that's what we talked about that weekend. That's why I did it, knowing that it was going to be very tough. And when that finality of the tough moment came, it wasn't that it was any, you know, it wasn't any easier, but, you know, with the time, you're able to remember why you did it.

2:48:36And how you did it. And how you did it. And to be able to look at some of the mirrors and say, look, that was my dharma and that was my job, that was my duty to do this, to do it to the best of my ability and to focus on that. And as the Gita says, you don't enjoy the fruits and the outcomes, you focus on doing your duty. And that is what ultimately gave me the strength to go through it and the strength to cope with the failure after it. And then in the fullness of time, We talked about this as well. It's important to draw the right stories from one's failure if you are going to grow from them.

2:49:15Because life is full of ups and downs in all walks of life. And you've got to use the failures and the setbacks to grow. so and actually has helped me with this over time is is is looking back on that overall period and making sure that I'm able to take away the things that I need to learn from it and not the whole thing treat it as if I was some victim and just be filled with self-pity because if that's how you feel you won't take any good lessons from it and you won't grow as an individual um so that to me is how I got through, is how it felt, which was not easy for all those reasons. How I dealt with it, and then hopefully how you can turn it into something that actually helps you in life rather than holds you back.

2:50:06Is it easy going back to be a corporate after all of this? You're still an MP. I'm still in Parliament. And so that is my anchor and my foundation. It's where I get my fulfillment from. week in, week out. It's actually, it's enjoyable, you know, it's enjoyable being in Parliament and not being, you know, the person at the dispatch box having to deal with the problem. Sometimes it's actually nice to be able to ask the question. I'm enjoying that as well. And in the future, is that what you will pursue, politics? Yeah, you know, as we talked about earlier, right, the future, who knows which direction it's going to take us in.

2:50:43Near future, yes? I mean, the near future, that's where I am. Yeah, I'm in Parliament and staying in Parliament. and I've got, as we said, hope for touch with 20 years ahead of me. And for the first time in a long time, I don't have an immediate thing that I'm gunning for. So we'll see where the future goes. But this goes back to the adaptability point we talked about. My own career is one where I've gone from finance and investing to politics and government. Now I'm spending more time in technology. This ability to adapt, to learn, to grow, So that is the key trait. And I don't know what the next chapter is going to be.

2:51:22It could be back to one of these. It could be something completely different. Who knows? But you've just got to be able to keep learning and adapting. And it's not just learning about new things, but learning from your failures so that you can hopefully succeed to higher heights on the next thing you do. Being curious about your failures, I would say. I think it's important that the story that you tell yourself about why things didn't work is really important. And it's easy not to be curious enough about it and to assume, as I said, you were the victim of circumstance or you have to be more… Balanced.

2:51:58Yeah, you have to allow them… You can't say it's all my fault, but equally you can't say it's all someone else's fault. Otherwise you cannot engage… Middle ground again. Yeah, the middle path. You have to do that. So that is how I've… Thank you. Before we go to Akshuta, Right. There's a brand called Sapko which... This particular coffee bean is from Kerala. But there's a bunch from Karnataka which I will send you. Just tell me the name. I will get it. They make really good chocolates. And this is coffee bean, is it? No, cacao. Cacao bean. That one has walnut in it. That's walnut. And this is really dark.

2:52:35If you like dark chocolate. She prefers very dark chocolate. Both lovely. So your question... Poets, politicians. We listen more to our politicians than our poets and it's a problem. Yeah, yeah. So, prior to Rishi doing his job at number 10, I would have probably said poets, because this is how I used to, how I have defined poets in the past. Idealist, emotional, emotionally driven, people who can move with words. Words are very important to me. It's part of, I would say it's how I've grown up through reading and writing and being moved by words and storytelling. Indeed, they break the Stanford Business School class into poets and quants.

2:53:29Really? I was a quant, actually was a poet. Yes. So I would have said poets. I'm not saying today I won't say poets. The answer's more nuanced today.

2:53:45It also depends on how you define a politician, right? You know, you can take one definition as sort of people who say one thing, do something else. people who are inherently obsessed with power. Sadly, in some cases, there's corruption involved. There's all these negative connotations. But I think, and I know I'm married to Rishi and I'm biased. Of course, I agree with that. But I think there are people like you, Rish, who can do it with a great deal of integrity and who can bring about that impact at scale and do it with integrity. And I think those people are needed in the political world. And I am optimistic that we will find, and there already are, and there will be more people like that who will approach politics as their purpose, who will be driven by passion for impact and who will get their validation because they can change people's lives for the better.

2:55:04So I think today I would say both poets and politicians. That is a good encapsulation of our journey because we've gone, if you ask me, it's what we learn from each other, right? And actually we spoke about it in the Stanford speech. You know, when we first met, I was very passionate about making a difference and saving the world. Incredibly idealistic. And I think one of the things that you got from me with actually understanding that's all very well having the idealism. How do you channel that into outcome? And actually, as we were talking, how do you bring about change? The political process in government is not the only way, but it's the way to do it at the biggest scale.

2:55:49And if you'd ask me, funnily enough... I have probably moved in the other direction over time. All the things we've been talking about when we were talking about, you know, what classes you should take at Stanford and how I've changed my approach over time. I think I need to become more poetic, probably. And it's the lesson I think if I, the thing that I don't do enough of, which I wish I did and I wish I did over time, is not reading poetry, but reading fiction. So I'm someone who just, people like me, I think, in general, but I read just nonfiction, almost. I'm always reading for a purpose. How do I get better at X?

2:56:31How do I learn more about Y? What can I take from this experience that I can then use? Storytelling for dummies. Yeah, right. And if I could have forced myself to read, not poetry probably, but more fiction, because I think, actually, if you spend most of your life doing what I do, which is reading for purpose, right? What's the actionable takeaway from what I'm reading? You know about what to do and how to do it. You're probably less good at understanding the why. And as I was talking about before, you're less good at understanding people. And what fiction gives you, it's not the actionable takeaway, but it's a much better understanding of people, of humanity, of emotions.

2:57:19And of purpose. And of purpose. And that's not poetry, but if I could have made myself read more fiction over time, that would have been a good thing. And if I may say, this is the first time I have ever interviewed a couple. Oh, wow. And the loveliest couple that you guys are. No, that's very kind of you. We've never done an interview this long, ever. And together. Well, we're certainly not together. Even I and all that. It didn't feel like an interview though, right? No, not an interview, actually. I'd say a conversation. But more than a conversation, kind of a rumination, no? Yeah. And so...

2:57:55We've never done anything like this, actually. We've actually... I'm really intrigued by this point that we all arrived at through that question around how do you get a 28-year-old who is to get into politics when they're also rightly looking for both purpose and validation. And I think, as you said so beautifully, that if you can get someone of that age to engage with just one policy that can impact so many people at such a young age, what is more motivating than that, right? And I learned that Rishi likes poetry, so next birthday gift taken care of. I said fiction, but let's not go too far. Like one step at a time.

2:58:45But thank you guys for doing this. This was so much fun. This has been great. This has been awesome. And great food as well. I'm amazed that we kept eating and talking. Yeah, try this one as well. This one is the dark one. Next time you're both in bandwagon, let's do something. Yeah, we'll be there. And next time we're in Bombay, we'd love to come and see Foundry. Yeah, 100%. if you have a course. I want to talk about that separately. I know that sounds super exciting. Super exciting. It's a three-month course, which is beginning next month. I'd love for you guys to come take a couple of lectures if you guys have time.

2:59:17Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you need... They're all really bright kids. And strangely enough, so many of them are from Stanford and Yale and Wharton. A lot of them have given up college and come back for this. Oh, right. Oh, okay. So they're still at... They're enrolled still. Right. I'm fascinated. So they're taking a quarter off or a semester off. It's so exciting. And do you know what? I have always fought for the consumer sector. Because fundamentally, you and I, I think, are motivated by the same things within the business space, which is consumer behavior. Right? Why? How do people behave? Why do they behave the way they do?

2:59:55Thereby, what kind of actions do they take? What are the market dynamics that influence these actions? And I've always said, And yes, you know, unlike B2B companies, unlike SaaS companies, unlike potentially companies in the AI deep tech space, you don't see outcomes quickly. You don't get those same kinds of financial validation quickly. But actually, if you stick at it, some of these companies dramatically change people's lives for the better. and I think it's fascinating. How often are you going to plan on doing it, do you think? Is it once a year or? I think once a year. Yeah. It'll be tough to do more.

3:00:40Once a year. Because it is quite intense, right? It's 20 companies that get created, so once a year is good enough. Yeah, it's quite three months. Yeah, yeah, it's hard. So like kind of one cohort a year. And do you have one person leading it and then you have guest lectures coming in? There's a bunch of people leading it. Have you heard of this man called Kishore Biani? Yes. Yeah, so he's leading it. You know Ronnie Skruvala? Yes, I know of him. They're all living there. Like I came back early today to do this, but they're all still there. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Having a good time. I don't know about good time.

3:01:11Last night was 3 a.m. And they needed to really make a decision on some candidates. So there were like these young kids being woken up at 2 a.m. It's really like pushing them beyond the normal. But I'm sure in time they will appreciate that. In time. In time. when they're listing, ringing the bell, and it would all have been worthwhile. I mean, for a separate conversation, Nikhil, but one of the things I'm thinking about is, because I'm a trustee of the V &A Museum in London, and the V &A, their focus is on creativity. They're called the Museum of Creativity. And so what we're thinking is, how can museums add value to the creative economy?

3:02:05Not just come in and see some old things and marvel, but how can museums add active value and work with the creative economy? So it would be fascinating to have a conversation around that at some point.