Nikhil Kamath x NZ PM Christopher Luxon | People by WTF Ep #7

0:00Thank you You Thank you

0:30Are we set guys?

0:37How should I address you? Prime Minister? Chris is fine. Yeah, you sure? Absolutely. So Chris, I'm not going to go the usual path of an interview. I think this is more a conversation. Yeah. And I went to the match recently, the India-New Zealand cricket final. Oh my goodness. I was hoping you weren't. This podcast was going so well. I totally had to go mention that.

1:04Hi, Chris. Thank you for doing this. It's so awesome to be with you and with such a celebrated entrepreneur like yourself. So it's great to be with you. How should I address you? Prime Minister? Chris is fine. Yeah, you sure? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, welcome to India. I saw bits of you going to different places in India. How has that been so far? I saw you with the Prime Minister. I saw you at the Gurudwara, at a cricket game. Yeah, it's been absolutely magical. I mean, we've had a fantastic four to five days here in India. And essentially, you know, India is a place that I first got to know when I was working at Unilever and we had a very large business here called Hindustan Leaver.

1:45And as a result, I used to come here in my probably mid to late 20s. And, you know, when I think about how it has progressed from when I first visited to where I am today, it's just so inspiring. I mean, it's such an ambitious, aspirational, can-do positive kind of place. And you just see the trajectory that it has been on, that it is now, and that it's on now for the future. And it's just, it's all about growth and it's all about energy and drive and determination. And it's just really, really contagious. So it's awesome to be here. I brought the biggest delegation of any prime minister on any visit that we've had from New Zealand.

2:19And I had a big business delegation and also a community delegation and also our Indigenous Kapahaka team, performing arts team with us as well. So, you know, it's been a very full-on set of four or five days, but, you know, these are two great countries that should have a closer relationship and be a much deeper, broader relationship. I saw this member of parliament, I'd like to say, performing the haka at parliament. It looks so good. Can you tell us a bit about that? What was that? Well, look, it's really, you know, our Kapahaka, which is our Maori performing arts. Māori are the indigenous people of New Zealand.

2:54My brother has a Māori title. He does, he does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They do it with a neb, right? Yeah, you got it, you got it. You got it. And they're just incredible because actually, you know, right from, you know, New Zealand's been a very innovative country. If you think about these Māori Polynesian navigators that navigated by the stars and came through the Pacific Ocean and to New Zealand. And so it's actually awesome to be able to bring them with me here because what I really appreciate is when you run into Indians, they've got huge appreciation for culture, your own culture. It's thousands of years of civilisation.

3:26It's just incredibly mesmerising and interesting. And I think there's huge respect for Māori culture as well. And it's a great way also to make the connections at a human connections level, a people-to-people level. So I'm really proud of bringing some of our best exponents of it to India. And I actually think they were due to at some point go perform in front of the Taj Mahal later on this weekend, which I think would be pretty awesome. Looking at you from this close, your eyes are a very interesting colour. Are they? Yeah. What colour are they? I think they're green. I think they might be like green.

4:00So, yeah. They seem to work. I seem to be able to see things pretty well, which is the main thing. So, I was going through your social media bio. Yeah. And amongst other things, it said, first a husband. Yes. Then a father, then a brother, then a son, and then New Zealand Prime Minister. Yes. Is that how you view life? Well, I think, you know, I've had the fortunate position of meeting lots of interesting people over my career and business and in the last four years in politics. And I always think it's not what you do, it's actually who you are that matters much more. If you put all of your identity into a title and into some perceived status, that then will come and go.

4:43and if you put all your identity into that stuff rather than actually who you are as an individual or a person and what kind of person you're becoming is much more interesting. You know, at some point I will no longer be Prime Minister of New Zealand and it will be a tremendous honour and it's a great responsibility and I absolutely love this job. But I'm not defined by the job and I think I've seen a lot of people get very defined by their job titles on their business cards and when that goes away they shatter themselves because they've put all their identity in store into that title. So that's all I think is just my approach to life in general.

5:14Can I also ask why husband and father first and then brother and son? Because those are older relationships in a way. Yeah, it's just, I mean, we're very close with my wife's family and my own family. But I was very fortunate that I met my wife Amanda when I was 15 years old. And we were dating at 19 and married at 23. And then we traveled the world together with my business career and then had our children overseas. And so I'm always very grateful that I married up and get to do life with Amanda as my life partner is pretty special. And then obviously I've got two children, William and Olivia, and we've been a very tight foursome because, you know, I left New Zealand as a 24-year-old.

5:54I was overseas for 16 years and we had our children overseas without a lot of family support around us, obviously, and we became a very tight unit. But equally, you know, I've got two younger brothers and an awesome mum and dad and we're all very close with as well. So family's everything, right? I mean, there's everything. It's where we learn how to behave. It's how we learn to, actually, the building block of our community. And so at the end of the day, I want to be able to get to 90 years old, look back on my life, and be able to put my arm around my adult son and say, you know, our relationships are awesome, you know.

6:29What you've achieved in life will be interesting to a point, but as I keep saying, who you are and the relationships that you have is what life's ultimately all about. So Chris, I'm not going to go the usual path of an interview. I think this is more a conversation. And I will not ask you many of the questions that you have been asked already. Maybe the Khalistani thing or the nuclear thing or New Zealand's relationship with China, India and so on and so forth. My audience is largely people who are working in a company or looking to start a company. I'm very interested in your transition from Unilever to Air New Zealand to being a politician today.

7:16That seems to be happening everywhere in the world right now as a trend. I could draw an analogy to Trump. And I want to ask you questions about that. How that transition felt like. Would you like to begin by describing it in your own words and tell me, A, was it worth it? And B, why the transition? Yeah, look, it is tremendously worth it. It's a, I mean, the privilege of being able to lead a country is really very, very special. You know, it's incredibly challenging, but it's also, you know, very, very rewarding. And you want to go to that job because you're bought into this notion of public service and actually you're there to actually improve the livelihoods of your citizens.

7:58And that's very much my motivation. So I'm not a career politician, which is very unusual in New Zealand. I have come from outside the system, but I actually think that's really good because you have a different outside-in perspective on what needs to change or what you want to do or how you think the country can be better. And I just feel New Zealand has so much potential that actually there's a real opportunity for us to actually get things sorted and solved for people so they actually get a better quality of life. And actually, I genuinely buy into that. With respect to the business, to the politics transition, I always felt I wanted to go do something else before I'd come to political life.

8:36Do you always think that, that you would come to political life? At some point, I always thought I would, or I'd like to think I would, or have the opportunity to do so. But essentially, the reason for that is very simply that I really think actually doing something else before you come to political life is often very, very helpful, because you understand more of the world and you understand more of what people are, how you can actually help people, how you can deal with them. So for me, yeah, having a business career was something I always wanted to do. But I always think that the skills from some of that is very transferable into my job.

9:08It's not the same thing running a company as it is a country. It's actually completely different and very different on a number of levels. But the principles by which you do that, the way that you lead, the way that you build a team of ministers to actually deliver the agenda, to actually get things done is very, very similar. And so some of the same principles that I learned in business actually are very applicable now into this role as Prime Minister. A lot of people ask me if I will ever be in politics. What do you think? I have no intent whatsoever, at least not today. But what is one skill that is serving you well in politics that you picked up in business?

9:46And what is one thing that is not working out for you? Well, I think the first thing is this notion of how do you protect and enhance the good things that have either happened in a country or a company, that principle is the same. And then also, how do you provoke and stimulate change? And actually, if it's all provoke and stimulate change, turning everything upside down, that never works. But if it's also just more incrementalism and more of the same, that also doesn't work. And I think the task of a leader, whether you're a CEO or prime minister, is to find that balance, protect and enhance the good stuff, make sure you stimulate and provoke change on new things that will actually move the agenda forward, move a country or move an organisation forward.

10:26But coming into politics, you know, the way I looked at it was that I was really, you know, I'd gone from playing cricket to now playing hockey, you know, like it's actually you had to start from the beginning and not come in assumptive that just because you've been successful in one sphere of life that you're immediately going to be successful in another sphere. And so actually being prepared to start at the beginning and actually be humble and learn what you need to know in order to help you move forward in your political career was very important to me. So yeah, that's how I approached life was just be curious about it and actually learn and focus on learning and the rest takes care of itself.

11:01So you're saying curiosity and learning that you learned in business serves you well is good for politics? Yeah, I think when I've sat down with, I remember sitting in Chicago where I lived for a long time with a bunch of quite high-powered CEOs and realizing that actually academically, maybe they were all B plus type students, smart enough people. But when you say, why are they successful and why are others not? I think it comes down to, do you have really good character in terms of a good, even temperament? I'm not someone who goes really high or low. I don't catastrophise when things go badly.

11:34I don't go bananas when everything's going well. I just stay pretty even at an emotional level, at a temperament level. But I think the character really matters. I think curiosity, that you're keen to keep learning new things, is really important. And you never stop learning. and you've actually just got to be smart enough to learn new things. I think, you know, communication skills are critical and also the other piece is conflict management skills. We're in the people business and politics actually and that requires good levels of EQ in terms of managing egos and personalities and people and all those things that you do to build good teams.

12:08You know, that's very transferable into political life as well. So, you know, I think those are the skills that actually say, you know, yes, I've got commercial skills. Yes, I have a good economics orientation. at a time when our economy has been somewhat challenged in recent years. We're coming through that. But, you know, that's been quite helpful, having that business commercial orientation. But I think the bigger piece is actually just the leadership skills that you have from one field to another are transferable if you can think through how to deploy them in often quite a different context.

12:38And when you say you don't emote the highs and lows, I'm assuming you're not as reactive as the next person. Are you not feeling the emotion or are you not projecting the emotion? No, I mean, I know I feel it. But the question is, I also do things like I'm fully informed about social media, but I'm not consumed by it. Because otherwise there's so many critics out there that you'd never get out of bed in the morning, right? If your whole life was defined by what comments are said about you on social media. So that's a way in which you make sure that you're not bounced around by people who you may or may not choose to take advice from.

13:15And so, you know, that to me is I've got a very good set of friends and mentors and family around me that keep me really grounded. And so for me, I'm just not, I'm a person who's always believed that, you know, like good sports teams, you know, when you see good, I study a lot of coaches and captains of sports teams because it's the same dynamic. In politics, people often think of it as an individual ego-driven game. But actually I've determined and the work that we've done with our team is now we're in a team game. I can play the position on the team. I may be opening bat or whatever, but I need a really fast bowler.

13:51I need a spin bowler. I need different people on the team that can play their position in a world-class edit and do a really good job. And it's about my job as captain is to make sure I get the right people in the right places on the right assignments with great clarity about what we're trying to achieve and what success looks like. This not allowing critique or social media affect you is a superpower in today's world almost. When I look back in time and history, a king's son always knew he would be king one day and was probably prepared for the good and bad of being in that place where everybody has an opinion.

14:31I'd love to learn this. For somebody who's a first generation politician, who I could maybe presume did not particularly know for sure that you would be a politician up until a few years ago. How did you inculcate that skill of not letting the criticism affect you? I think it just comes back to life, whether you're a community leader, whether you're a political leader or a business leader. It's the same principle, which is that ultimately, I am a person who gets very connected to the mission and purpose that I'm doing. I came to political life. I came home from overseas, back home to New Zealand.

15:07I came into politics because I genuinely am connected to the mission of New Zealand's an awesome country and it's got so much more potential and I genuinely want to do that. Beyond that, I listen to what people have. I take advice. That's a very important thing to be able to take on board feedback. But I'm not going to sit there and get bounced around by some comment on social media, for goodness sake. You know, like honestly, you know, everyone can have their opinions, but not all opinions are equal. I choose not to take advice from people on social media if I don't want to. So I get to choose that.

15:39There is a moment between stimulus and response as to how you choose to respond to that stimulus. So for me, it's I'm informed about what's going on, but I don't need to be consumed and I'm not on my phone looking at what everyone's saying. And I think that's really sad when people get that way because actually that's the real human to human connections and relationships that you want to be investing your time in. We all have 24 hours in a day and the question is, what do you do with your time? And I think when you get to the end of life, and I've spent time talking to people in their 70s and 80s and 90s and asking about what their life's like.

16:12It's about the quality of the relationships that they have, not how much money they've made or what status they've had. That's all very interesting. But actually, it's the quality of the relationships and the impact you've had with people that will ultimately matter. I think that's very well said. A lot of people can learn from that. When I think about who could be politicians in society next, I'm thinking artists, entrepreneurs, business people. If I were to assume that money is a precondition to success in politics, the logical path would almost be for businessmen to become politicians like we see happening in different pockets of the world.

16:51Also, excellence in business, in managing people like you said, is a big talent that translates into politics as well. Do you agree with the role of money in politics? No. I mean, we come from a political system in New Zealand where money, you know, we have very tight laws around campaign financing. And so we don't have the challenges that I observe in other countries around the world or other democracies where money buys influence. We have very strict, independent electoral commission laws. I think in an electoral campaign, you can't spend more than$26 ,000 New Zealand dollars. where every member of parliament, every candidate is allowed to spend up to that amount, but you can't legally spend over that.

17:34There isn't. So I think those are there, you know, we've got very tight laws around that. So actually in New Zealand, my story in politics is not very common. Actually, the more common pathway is people coming out of university, working as staffers in a political party or in a government, becoming a member of parliament, then becoming a minister. Actually, that hasn't been the story of someone like me coming from outside in the way that I have. Most countries, I think, have these laws, Chris, even in the US. But I think political parties find ways to circumvent them. Yes, I'm just saying to you, in New Zealand, we have very strict laws.

18:11And as a result, and you see it in some Scandinavian countries as well, where that is just not negotiable for us. There is just no way for that to happen. So, you know, there is really tight caps of spending. It's very, very small amounts of money relative to people running for office in local government, even in US cities or towns. But we like it that way because it means that then money isn't the reason for which someone can't run as a parliamentarian. And if you look at our parliament, what you want to see is diversity. You want to see people from all walks of life. As you said, artists, police officers, school teachers, business people.

18:52Yeah, we want to see a real diversity. Yeah.

18:58Who is harder to deal with? Shareholders at your previous role or voters today? I think without doubt the public. I mean you're dealing with much more substantive issues about whether they're getting a dividend or return. You know the most important thing is actually to improve the lives of New Zealanders and so you know and they have high expectations of us to deliver for them and to improve public services, to grow the economy, to keep them safe and have good law and order. Actually, I'm here to do the very best I can with what I know to improve the lot of New Zealand and my fellow citizens.

19:31And that's what the mission is. And so, you know, but as a result, there's huge expectations and quite rightly so. I went to the match recently, the India-New Zealand cricket final. I know you fall apart. In Dubai. Oh my goodness. I was hoping you were, this podcast was going so well until you had to go mention that. I haven't raised at all that 3-0 whitewash test series that we had here. I actually was down playing a little bit of cricket at the stadium here in Mumbai just today, just this morning, with Ajay Patel, who took 10 for 119 here. So, and as a son of Mumbai as well, now a New Zealander.

20:07In the stadium, they were, I don't know, 50 ,000 people. 49 ,950 of them were wearing a blue T-shirt. And there were 50 of New Zealanders in the crowd as well. but that brought me to a very interesting analogy that I heard somewhere that the sheep to supermodel ratio is highest in New Zealand. I have no idea about that. I have no idea about that. But what I can tell you is, yes, look, I mean, we're a country of 5.5 million people and we live in an incredible landscape and land called New Zealand. That's the size of Japan or the size of the UK. and how lucky are we because with all respect to my Indian friends, we live in the best country on planet Earth.

20:55And so we're really lucky to live there. But New Zealanders constantly punch above their weight. You know, that's the nature of our country is if you think about it, because we're at the edge of the world. I'm sorry, I meant supermodel to sheep ratio. Either way, I have no idea. It's not one of the stats that I get to see regularly. But, you know, really this is a country that is at the edge of the world and therefore has a lot to offer the world because it's when you have to be resourceful that you actually innovate and you end up doing amazing things. And so, you know, it was Lord Rutherford that split the atom, you know, out of New Zealand.

21:28It was Kate Shepard who gave women the vote, the first country in the world to ever do so by a long time before others got with the programme of equality. You know, you think about someone like Sir Peter Beck today who's now made New Zealand the fourth biggest launcher of rockets into space after the US, Russia and China. Very interesting. Yeah, so when you come from a small country at the end of the world, that's a huge advantage because you think different, because you have to think different. And as a result, that's why you see New Zealanders, whether it's in the field of sports or science or innovation or entrepreneurship, actually doing very well.

22:00As an entrepreneur investor, if there is one thing that I can do with New Zealand from the capitalistic lens to benefit, what would it be as an Indian entrepreneur? Well, I think, you know, we were very fortunate actually just last week. We had actually 107 organisations come down from 16 different countries with$6.5 trillion worth of money to invest to make that exact case to them. That's why we've just launched actually what we call the active investor visa. You know, if you want to put$5 million New Zealand into investment in New Zealand, there's a pathway to residency in three years. Much like the US.

22:37Yes, they copied us after us. But, you know, that sort of proposition doesn't exist in the UK or Australia now, really. But that's a great opportunity for us to get that connectivity because New Zealand, despite our distance and where we are placed in the world, we are not an inward looking people. We're very outward looking people. You know, we have one fifth of our country living overseas on any given day of the week. So we are very engaged in the world despite our remoteness at times or our geography. And so, you know, that's why, you know, we want to welcome people to New Zealand so that we can actually get more of those connections together so that we can actually, you know, deepen the relationships.