Vinod Khosla: College Degrees Are Becoming Useless | People by WTF | Episode 12

33:48So you'd have to look back 50, five years, 50 years or more. Why don't you call five years for me? I want to learn from you in making my career choice today. So if 10, 15 years are too far ahead to extrapolate, I'm 22 today. Tell me when I'm 27, five years from now. So the answer is the same for both. Right. Sorry, long-winded way. Right. The point I was making is we'll see more change in the next 15 years than we've seen the last 50. And 50 years ago, the world, especially in India, was a very, very different world. You know, in 1970, I never had a TV at home or a telephone at home. Like, even when I left India, I'd never had a telephone or a TV at home.

34:39Right? It wasn't something that was in most homes in India or running water or very basic things. And that's how different the world will be in 15 years. almost certainly, with no doubt, there isn't a job

35:02where AI won't be able to do 80 % of all jobs. So, 80 % of all jobs, AI will be able to do most of it within the next three to five years. So, now I'm getting really in. So if you look 10 or 15 years out, there's no chance. There's a job that humans do that AI can't do almost as well, with some minor exceptions, which I think today I have a hard time saying will happen for sure for regulatory or other reasons like a heart surgeon or a brain surgeon. But even those, AI will be able to do it better than a human, but regulation may not allow it. But leaving aside those exceptions, the vast majority of jobs will be done, will be capable of being done by an AI.

36:05And that's what today's 20 or 22-year-old has to take for granted. So what matters? the first the single most important thing that matters is not specialization in an area I don't learn welding or I don't learn finance I learn the ability to learn be able to move around rapidly as the world evolves and learn rapidly and I have to say today at age 70 I'm learning at a much faster pace than I've ever learned in my whole life, ever. And every 20-year-old should strive for this ability to jump into any new area, whether it's a physics problem or a biology problem or a finance problem, just this ability to think from first principles and learning new areas.

37:11because chat GPT can teach you any new areas. And AI will have that capability to be able to leverage these things well. So I would say you have to optimize your career for flexibility, not a single profession. Okay. That's the most important advice because you don't know what will be around. almost certainly this interview could be done without us physically meeting on real video generated by an AI and the AI may be directed with what camera angle somebody wants I hear you Vinod when you say the rate of change will be faster I'm going to as a 22 year old be more adaptable and flexible I still need to make a choice today Do I work in an IT services company?

38:08Do I work in a nuclear fusion company? Do I work in a data center? I still need to pick. Yeah, so I do think it almost doesn't matter where you start. Right. Okay. I'm saying, first, education is going to be valuable to learn how to learn, not to be good at one thing like being an accountant or a chartered accountant. That's not going to be important, but that education, the process of learning how to learn. And in fact, one of the best things about computer science isn't that you know programming. Because, you know, Google's gone from 0 % AI-generated code to, I think, the last claim, 35 % of all code being written in Google is being written by an AI.

39:11But it's the process of thinking that computer science teaches you really well. And learning architectures and systems and system things. Some of those things are about learning to learn. But you can do it in a number of areas. So it's not just computer science.

39:34So I would say there's a wide range of things, but keeping your lens zoomed out for the widest angle is sort of the way to think about how you should go about your career. So you're saying don't be a specialist, be a generalist. Be a generalist, not a specialist. Absolutely. Right. And learn how to be a generalist. Learn how to use AI the best. And we may be, you know, maybe it'll eliminate all jobs. AI will. But the fact is, for certain, the people who don't know how to use AI will be obsoleted by people who know how to use AI first. Right. And there, if you're dynamic and learning, then you can move with whatever's happening in the world.

40:24I would say the following.

40:29It's just because we can't predict the future doesn't mean it won't be dramatically different. We just don't know what it will be. I like to say something else, which is most people, most of the time, assume improbables are not important. I've always assumed the exact opposite. Only the improbables are important. We just don't know which of a thousand improbables is important. So what do you do in that case? You go for agility. You follow trends. You move around. You be more adaptable and flexible. Do more first principles thinking. It's a very different way of growing up. whether you're 20 or you're 60 or 70.

41:27You know, clearly I'm learning more now, as I said. And so today I feel like I can have an intelligent conversation around cell therapy in biology or about fusion. I can do both. Or about carnal efficiency in steam engines, which we discussed today for some esoteric reason. You know, certain fundamental things, you have a broad knowledge on which you can build other knowledge. So, what is that pedestal of knowledge you acquire and how do you keep expanding it is very, very important. Most people stop learning. And I think I would say, you know, if you get a job as a waiter at a restaurant, 20 years later, you haven't gained a lot more expertise that you didn't gain in the first year as a waiter at a restaurant.

42:28You're not exponential compounding of your capability. But other jobs, if I pick the right one, your knowledge compounds and your capability compounds over time. So I would look at the basic principle of financial compounding in knowledge and job capability as a young individual. What will make it compound? And then you have to intersect that with what's interesting to me. What do I have passion for? If AI were to disrupt all jobs, will AI also need to be nationalized and we move back to a socialistic economy in a way? You know, look. Or does capital continue to remain the moat going into a world like that?

43:19It's very hard to tell. It depends on policies each country adapts. And I think each country or at least each region will make different choices.

43:36So, why do we have capitalism? It was fundamentally for economic efficiency. The world of Adam Smith was about economic efficiency and the idea that if a human is doing a job, they'll be much more efficient if they're doing it for themselves and earning more income.

44:05the need for efficiency may decline dramatically in most areas. Not in all areas. You'll still need to be efficient in the amount of steel or cement or copper you use. But efficiency's role will decline. and hence how you structure it and how you give the benefits of these technologies to everybody is a social choice. It's not a technology choice. It's not a choice entrepreneurs will make. Could one argue that before Adam Smith cropped up in Scotland, if you go back many centuries before that, man was still looking out for his best, his own interest. So we might not have had the term capitalism in today's parlance.

45:05It was always about capitalism, right? In a post-AI world as well, we will feel the need to distinguish ourselves and compete. Yes, but will we have the ability to? So imagine the following. You've seen my wife's company, CK-12. If every child in India, which I hope happens in the next five years, has a free AI tutor. That's entirely possible today at a small fraction of the education budget the government has today. And it'll be better than the best education a rich person can offer their kids by hiring them personal teachers. Almost certainly. the AI will do a better job than the most expensive tutor or teacher you can hire for your kids if you're rich and can afford anything.

46:02In that world, education is really free and it's ongoing. And whether it's sixth grade education or college education or professional education, it doesn't matter. and you'll be able to do anything at any time and switch your majors because you don't have to go back to college for three or five years to change from electrical engineering to mechanical engineering or from medicine to something else. I think that world is soon. So education's free. Imagine if medical expertise was free. Every doctor was free. Imagine every lawyer was free and every judge was free so AI could judge a legal dispute so everybody had access.

47:02Most people in India probably can't hire a lawyer to enforce their rights. And that's why we don't have real justice, right? Access to fairness. And, of course, the courts are bottlenecked, and you can have AI judges. So, and frankly, 10 years ago, I wrote about the poorest person can have the best wealth advisor at their level, even if they're making 5 ,000 rupees a month. Because they can. because somebody who makes a lot more won't have better advisors. In fact, even if you wanted just tax jar, dodge, and other do tax schemes and stuff, the AI will be able to figure that out better than a human.

47:57So in that world,

48:02how do you distribute wealth? if a firm worker can do the same job that an oncologist can, you pay them the same? Almost certainly it'll be true 15 years from now. And I mean that, almost certainly it'll be true. So very hard to predict how this sorts out. And many countries will resist it because unemployment, It causes dislocation, which people always object to. Based on that, if the AI models of today, the incumbent world, are controlled by one geography, how do you think of sovereign AI in countries like India? Well, that's why we have Sovereign in India. I've always assumed countries will want sovereign AI.

49:03That's why we invest in Sarvam in India. We invest in a company called Sakana in Japan for the same reason. Now, certain populations aren't large enough to have their own AI, but regions do. Do you think the time is near when we all start capitalizing and protecting our data in a manner that we give access to some AI based on our preferences or geographies? Again, that'll be a function of government policy. Europeans have very different data policy than the U.S. does. Likely outcome, you think? I don't think so. I think, look, you can choose not to share any information with Google. today or wipe out all your information.

50:04But do you then get the benefits of the services on which they can customize to you? I have no question. I'd rather share my data and get customized services than get services that are not customized to me. I would say that if my data is the commodity that is bringing revenue to company X, I would want to get a share in the revenue in one manner or another. But you do.

50:43Reid Hoffman has a new book called Super Agency. If you read it, he talks about the fact that, you know, if you ask people the following question, at what price would you not use Facebook? Right? Like, how much would you pay if I said, I'm taking it away, but you can get it back if you pay for it? And it's like$40 or$50 a month. How much does Facebook make from you per month on average? About$40 or$50 a year. So you're getting, pick a number,$600 worth of value, and they're getting$50 worth of value in a year. What is a fair exchange? Everybody has the option to not buy into these services. Now, there's lots of nuances, but is an economic surplus created?

51:51Yes.

51:56Again, it's a policy question. It kind of like... Government policy will have a lot more to do with these things than people realize today. And, you know, I've argued, and I would argue, as part of Aadhaar, today we have UPI, which takes away the need for Visa and MasterCard. So it's a 3 % tax on the economy that Indians don't pay, but everybody in the U.S. pays. But what if, in addition to payment services, There was medical services and education services. My bet is every Indian could get that at less than a dollar a month or a billion dollars a year a month for each of these or 10 billion a year.

52:51It's so trivial in cost. If I was PM Modi, I'd be doing everything I can to get those as common services. And at that point, because AI is doing the work, you don't care about economic efficiency. Your government is as efficient as private enterprise in these services that can be made into AI. And they should be. They're so accessible today. They'll always be available. If you live in a village, you shouldn't have to go take a day's journey to go get a basic medical checkup and the doctor sees you for five minutes and then you spend a day getting back to your village. It just shouldn't. And 10 years ago in this document, I wrote about the fact at some point in the future, much more, we are five minutes from Stanford Hospital.

53:53And I wrote about the fact that a village in India, I will get better cardiac advice, cardiac care, than I can get at Stanford because Stanford will still in 15 years have their cardiologists. And in the village, there'll be AI. Almost certainly true. So should the government include all of these services or as many of these services for free? They can't include everything. Housing will still be a material thing. And so you can't give it away for free. But the software-based services, They depend on expertise. Personal lawyers for everybody, personal tutors for every child or adult, the personal medical care advice.

54:35You know, if you need surgery or medicine, you still need a physical thing. But half the economy could be covered in almost free services from the government. And to be honest, I'd love to do that in India. It's such a no-brainer. And make it available in the next five years. but let's talk about what entrepreneurs have as opportunities I get away into these no I heard you and Bill debate this why does regulation not allow doctors in the UK I think you were making a case for yeah I heard you make that debate look mental health services aren't available in India in the UK we have something that's used by 40 % of all NHS mental health clinics to intake patients.

55:31What does intaking a patient mean? A therapist talk to them and classify their mental illness. The AI is much more accurate than the human therapist. 93 % accuracy for talk-based therapy kinds of conditions. are you bipolar, are you schizophrenic, are you depressed?

56:00And AI can do the therapy. It should be scaled infinitely in India. And it's the kind of thing people may be afraid to go or embarrassed to go ask for services, and there aren't enough therapists in India to meet everybody's needs, but the AI can offer it for free. So in a way, you're also saying that UBI is an inevitability. I think some form of income redistribution by 2050 will be absolutely essential everywhere in the world. Do you think it'll be income redistribution or will it be shoring up the bottom part of the population? Well, there's many ways to get there. You could give everybody income for not working.

56:51The question is, where do you get that from? There's probably another way, which is my favorite way, is to deflate the economy. Which is what America is doing? Well, if you do excess spending, you'll get inflation, not deflation. But if a lot of services become free, you'll have a deflationary economy. So, in my essay on AI dystopia or utopia, I talk about in the U.S., I believe 25 years from now, it could be that$10 ,000 today in 2050 buys more goods and services that you need, whether it's food or housing or medical services or entertainment or education. than$50 ,000 buys today. Because the services will be provided by machines which don't inflate?

57:48Yeah, you'll have excessive production, so deflationary prices. You're no longer constrained by inputs to get outputs. In many areas, in some areas you'll still have inputs, but you'll have much more input. Isn't the cost of a service also dependent on purchasing power? like how much I am willing to pay relative to Vinod? Yeah, except if there's infinite supply. If there's an infinite supply of doctors, what do you think a doctor will cost? I think Adam Smith, like you mentioned earlier, also spoke about the marginal utility of things wherein one agentic doctor, the first one that is created and is free, has X in value.

58:31The second, the third, the fourth proportionately have lower and lower value to a point where they have no value. But overnight, if I created a billion doctors for India, which is entirely feasible, what happens? They become near free. Their cost of computing or the cost of power to run a computer. Same thing happens in education. Same thing happens in legal service. Does the cost of compute of an AI ever... Like, your brain has a cost of compute, right? the amount of energy it takes to produce an output. Let's say that today that is far cheaper than how much AI is taking. When do you think that crossover happens when the cost of compute in a system becomes less than the human being?

59:20I think this is a complex question because at some level, the cost will decline, but you won't take advantage in efficiency in cost, but you'll take it in more performance. So if everybody has a super assistant, if your personal housekeeper is a PhD in every subject, that's sort of the world to imagine. I know it sounds crazy. But look, I think the more interesting question for your audience is, what's one important question which you asked? How do you pick a job? We talked about that. The other question to ask is, what job should I take now? And what company can I start? And for the next 10 years, the following is true.

1:00:19Anybody in any industry not using AI will be obsoleted by somebody who's using AI. So if I'm an entrepreneur in India today, I say, what's my next move? Say, where can I apply AI that absolutes the service, either in cost or in performance or in quality, that somebody's providing without AI and beat them at it? I think that's the metric for every entrepreneur. If, say, 10 entrepreneurs hear that, And there will be 10 who hear that. Yeah, 100%. And they all use the same means to approach this problem. And AI is as democratic as it is right now. Wouldn't they all 10 arrive at the same solution? I think there's massive difference in the quality of entrepreneurs.

1:01:18And the outcome will be a result of the quality of the entrepreneur. how they think from first principles, how strategically they think. Almost certainly the people who only think a year out will be obsoleted by the people who think, what do I want to build in five years? But what can I sell next year? But where do I want to head in five years? Swallowing is a good analogy for entrepreneurs that I love. Imagine you want to climb Mount Everest. and you have two people setting out, and one says, I'll get to base camp, then to camp one, camp two, camp three. I think there's camp four and then the peak, right?

1:02:09It's not a straight path, right? Another entrepreneur says, I'm going to get the most revenue in year two, year one and year two. They won't go to camp one, base camp or camp one. They'll pick the highest peak that doesn't then lead to something beyond. The path to Everest through these camps is very strategically picked to have the long-term vision of getting to Everest. Most people maximize revenue for the short term and are not thinking strategically. So the strategic entrepreneurs will do better. The entrepreneurs who pick better employees who help them think through strategy will do better.

1:02:57So people selection or team building will become the most important characteristic where the AI technology is democratized, if you believe it's democratized. Which investor you pick, do they have a short-term orientation or a long-term orientation? It makes a dramatic difference what kind of advice you get. Most of the advice most entrepreneurs get is bad. So if you Google 90 % of venture capitalists add no value, my name pops up because I've always said this for the last 25 years. I see such bad advice being given or short-term advice being given by investors. So picking your investors right, picking your employees right, those make a huge difference.

1:03:43When things go wrong, do you get scared and retract or pick a better strategy to survive and be more strategic? Do you think from first principles? All those things are massive differentiators. I think the shortage today is not of technology or capital. It's of great entrepreneurs who know how to make these choices. The single most important decision an entrepreneur makes is whose advice to trust on what topic. because they'll get advice from lots of people. Everybody does. Most of it is not good advice. And so I feel bad for entrepreneurs who get bad advice. But in the end, they're responsible for deciding what advice to take.

1:04:34It's the most important decision they make. Do you need an entrepreneur then? if you can model for the behavior that successful entrepreneurs, like you speak about a few often, if you can model for all their behavior and put it in a model and throw out outcomes like they were making the decision, why do you then need the entrepreneur? Why do you need venture capital? You know, are we there today? No. Might we be there in 10 years? Maybe. Right. One of my speculations on the internet, on Twitter, has been, when will the first billion-dollar company that only has 10 employees be started or has it already started?

1:05:27I think that's a valid question. And sometime in the next 10 years, we will see a company with a billion dollars of revenue that has only 10 employees. Whether it's already been started or will be started, I don't know. So, Vinod, I've been spending a lot of time with my team trying to come up with a thesis of what sectors might do better than others as this change in the world happens, while it occurs. some of the things that we've been digging data up around are things like the world will be older and sicker and people will have lesser kids than they're having or were having 10 years ago when people have more time and discretionary spending power they go back to their innate programming of wanting to speculate the speculative businesses might do better do you have thoughts on these or opinions like this, if you're wrong?

1:06:29On the entrepreneur side, I look at the question, who thinks from first principles? Who's not scared of hardship? Because the entrepreneurial roller coaster has lots of highs and lows. And who has the fastest learning rate? Right? If they're a fast learner, they'll adapt to the world as it changes. And that may be the most important characteristic of an entrepreneur. Yeah. I'm making the assumption that you're a faster learner than everyone else here. And I want to know what you've adapted to now that I might not be seeing yet. Well, I don't think people believe this world I'm describing. So if you look at my AI dystopia or utopia paper, Most of the world I'm talking about is not something people believe.

1:07:32But that's natural because I feel like humans are programmed to worry a lot more about fear than think of the gain that they're getting. Twice as much according to Kahneman. But not everybody is, not all humans. And those are the people who will do well. who are optimistic about the future and then persistent through real hardship of the ups and downs to make the passion they have happen. Right. Like we have a company that's building public transit based on self-driving where the vehicles become small and personal. You don't need a DTC bus in New Delhi to carry people. it can be a two-person pod that drives itself from A to B.

1:08:25I actually have a personal question around this. For the last couple of years, I had come up, I almost made an assumption that mobility will move to electric from IC, fossil fuel based. And I bet on everything from scooter companies to car, truck, bus, even a flying taxi company. But the adoption to EV in this last cycle seems to be slowing down. Do you agree with that thesis that all vehicle, all mobility will be electric in nature? And if yes, why is it slowing down? On land, yes. Right. Almost certainly. Why is it slowing down the pace of adoption? You know, look, anytime you're an incumbent, you want to slow things down.

1:09:17It's to your advantage that things change slowly because you adapt more slowly. And so incumbents always do that. And there's always fits and starts. It's never a straight line. But I can't see, you know, some of the U.S. companies are slowing down. But what's happening? BYD in China is the fastest growing company in the automotive world. actually even in India a lot of companies are slowing down yeah and that may be but that doesn't change eventually where it'll get to yeah I hope so too but yeah I'm pretty certain that'll happen but the more the uncertainty the harder it is to pick the right company to invest in but do you think energy and data centers as a business sufficient legroom and tailwinds to be, if I were 22 and starting off, to spend a decade in them?

1:10:22By energy, I don't mean the means of generating energy. It could be fusion. It could be something else, but focusing on energy. You know, I would say there's some combination of where your passion is and expertise. Passion counts for more than most people think. Right? because you persist through ups and downs. And if you don't have passion, you give up. It's like you don't give up on your religion just because you had a hard time. Someone wise once said, an emotion which is a passion ceases to be a passion once you develop a clear understanding of it. So you're not really, it's very hard to be passionate about something that you've understood.

1:11:16Religion could fall in that territory. Nobody can truly understand it. And I've heard you in interviews say that passion is not necessarily the pivotal force that should define which sector you should work in. So I think in the world of the past, I used to tell kids when the advice you get is follow your passion, I would say, follow your passion if you're willing to starve and not make a living for your family. Live on a beach and a hut and stuff. I remember you saying this. So you can go surfing and you can absolutely go live in Hawaii and survive, but you're not paying for a Stanford education for your kids if you're surfing.

1:12:03So you have to be realistic about, It may still be a good trade-off, but everybody has to be explicit on what trade-off they're making. If you bet your life on being the best cricketer, you don't make it, then you're a waiter. Are you willing to take a.001 probability you'll be a world-class cricketer on the Indian cricket team? Or in the rest of the probability, you're a waiter? that's a choice you get to make. That used to be true. I think we will go in a world where you can pursue much more of your passion. I think that will change and that is where AI will free humanity to pursue what they're interested in and to change your passion if it changes over time.

1:12:57My passions aren't the same from when I was 20. Yeah, fair. In all that you're saying, Vinod, you're coming across very optimistic and utopian about this whole thing. I know you don't believe in bubbles per se, but as an investor, you've seen the many cycles, many more than I have. Do you think we could be in a bubble today and overestimating, I'm not saying overestimating the change, but the pace or the rate of change? I would make the following differentiation. Investment is a different thing than building. So when you're an investor, by and large, you're competing with other investors that have only two emotions, fear and greed.

1:13:51And so every time there's an opportunity-rich space, you get a bubble. If you look at the dot-com bubble in 1998 or so, if you look at stock prices, they went up, and then they collapsed, and then they normalized. But I don't look at that world because I don't think of myself as an investor. I say, what happened to internet traffic? You can't tell where the bubble is by looking at internet traffic. One of the original bubbles was in the 1830s in England when railroads first came and you got the right to build a railroad between two cities. You could offer scripts, essentially do a stock, an IPO.

1:14:51And, of course, there was a huge bubble in script prices and then a collapse. The same thing, if you look at the miles of railroad built, you can't tell when the bubble was in the 1830s. So, what is reality for you? To me, the reality is internet traffic, miles of railroad built, AI applications. AI valuations isn't something I worry about. But there surely will be a bubble. Almost certainly. Will be? Will be, or we are in one. Right. I like to say, even in 2025, most investments that are made will lose money. You believe that? Most. Yeah. The vast majority, I might even guess north of 80%. But more money will be made than lost.

1:15:50So the few things that succeed are playing in such large markets. It's the same issue of there's 10 startups. One will make more money than the other nine lose in every area. Of the next 1 ,000 startups, 990 can lose money. And you can still make money by investing in the right portfolio. So I do think we will see that. I do think we will see a collapse in valuations. Most likely, you can't never be certain. But it's such a large market we are playing in, such a large global transformation, that there will be many more opportunities than we've seen ever before. And that's good news for entrepreneurs.

1:16:43And almost certainly most of this won't be done by large companies. Do you have a view on crypto and blockchains? They're not allowed in India. It's a world where we have seen sudden adoption in the West and some neighbors of ours. Again, as you've seen, crypto has been a function of politics, not of reality. You don't think? I think there's very different worlds of crypto. There's cryptocurrency very, very different than the blockchain. The blockchain has a lot of uses. And if you said to me, will you see adoption of stable coins? Absolutely. It makes total sense to adapt stable coins. Okay. Every economy should have a stable coin.

1:17:37The Indian government should issue a stable coin. And then great place to do it with the Aadhaar system. But don't you think something is wrong with the premise that you didn't trust regulation in the formal economy, so you created a blockchain outside and a crypto on top of it. Now if you denominate the stable coin with the same dollar or the same currency, aren't you like going around in a circle? Here's the problem. When you don't have trust, when is the blockchain important? When you don't have centralized trust. Yeah. Okay? I don't think distributed trust works across borders in all areas altogether.

1:18:24So the vast majority of uses of crypto are illegal stuff. gun trades, drug trades, sex trafficking, arms trades. It's the worst use of crypto. Or people in Argentina trying to get their money out of the country, or in China, people trying to get their money out of the country. So in some places, they're doing exactly what the global economy would want them to do, which the government doesn't want them to do. but it's mostly illegal. And then there's speculation. And, of course, related to that, fraud. Are there good uses for the blockchain of distributed trust? Yes. We have a company building a cell phone network based on distributed trust.

1:19:18Everybody can contribute their own access point. Now, there's another company building Google Maps competitor based on how much you contribute to mapping. There's lots of good uses for the stablecoin, but there's lots of bad uses. The problem is the bad uses prevent the good uses. And so stablecoins' currency mechanism is better than speculation. And from that lens, the banking industry will likely get disrupted sooner than later. With stablecoins, it would be, yes. The cost of transaction and the... Yeah. And UPI started to do that in India, but it should be much, much cheaper. And, you know, look, you don't need to have the whole legal system.

1:20:14You can have software contracts for at least half the things for which you have a legal system around contracts. So software contracts, a really good use of the blockchain. Automatic settlement of the contracts, financially, really good use of the blockchains. So I hope those come up. Specifically to your home country, Vinod, of India, which has a disproportionately high number of IT services being exported. I can't remember the number, but somewhere around 200 billion. What do we do? How do we become resilient tomorrow? I think it's very, you know, BPO as a business will disappear. Yeah. Software IT services will mostly disappear.

1:21:01Disappear means transform pretty radically. Whether some of those companies can transform or not will determine whether they survive or not. What do you suspect? Will they? Will the incumbents transform? Today, I see them adjusting incrementally, not radically. Here's the problem, right? If I can do a system integration service for one-fifth the cost, the customer will always take one-fifth. Modular trust. So, will some of these vendors drop their prices by 5x or 80 % or at least by 60 % and then expand their services? Hard to tell. I do apologize. I'm late for a dinner. Thank you for doing this, Vino.

1:21:55This was fun. Thank you for having done it. This was fun. Well, I'm happy to catch up sometime. Yeah, 100%. We'll do it.