Bridget Phillipson on the two-child cap, Reform, and the deputy leadership

0:14This is Political Currency with Ed Balls and George Osborne.

0:24so welcome to another special episode of political currency at christmas time after my chat with ed davey last week george has decided to have a conversation with one of the rising stars of the labour cabinet a rising star but also the candidate who went up against lucy powell for the deputy leadership of the Labour Party in the autumn, Bridget Philipson. She has a great backstory, a real passion for politics, but she's also one of the cabinet members who has been delivering in government in the first 18 months, but also subject to some brickbats from number 10. So she's a fascinating person to be talking to.

1:07And George, why Bridget? Do you know, earlier this year, I was at a big kind of media party in Westminster, and I was talking to some of the Labour cabinet who I know pretty well, like Wes Streeting or Shabana Mahmood. But I got into a conversation with Bridget Philipson and although we did overlap as MPs, so it's not that we didn't know each other at all, I had never really had a proper conversation with her. This was before the deputy leadership contest came up. She came in in 2010, so just when you'd become Chancellor. Yeah. I mean, I do remember her, you know, as a Labour opposition MP. I think she was a whip.

1:38But anyway, we had this conversation and I really enjoyed it. I thought this is a really interesting person and someone I'd like to have a longer conversation with. And then the deputy leadership contest came, which she didn't win, but she did pretty creditably. And particularly, she was the kind of number 10 candidate, in effect. So I thought I would see if she'd be interested to come on our podcast, do this interview. What I wanted to ask her about was, you know, her job as education secretary is a big job, job you did, of course. But why is school, school, schools a bit less prominent than they used to be as the kind of hot political issue?

2:13Remember when Tony Blair and David Cameron and people made education, you know, a big, big theme. It feels to me it sort of dropped off the political radar a bit for all parties. I was going to ask her about that. Her deputy leadership contest, very interesting. She decides to run. Why does she decide to run? It kind of suddenly potentially reveals her kind of broader leadership ambitions. We touch on that. And then, you know, she is a Labour MP up in the northeast of England. And, you know, I would say many people would regard that as the kind of front line in the contest between Labour and reform.

2:48So, you know, though she's been elected and re-elected in every election, the election she got closest to losing her seat was in 2019 when Boris Johnson was contesting and the Brexit party stood down. You know, I think she really understands some of the challenges that Labour faces from reform. And so it would be good to get her thoughts on those. Fascinating, Meaty. Very much looking forward to it. George Osborne speaking to Bridget Philipson.

3:17right welcome to Bridget Bridget Philipson the Secretary of State for Education also the Minister for Women and Equalities in the Government Member of Parliament for Sunderland South and Houghton or maybe I've got that the wrong way around but same thing and you are here in Hoxton in our studio we are thrilled the political currency team I'm thrilled that you have come along to join us hopefully you do occasionally listen to our podcast I'm a keen listener to the podcast you'd be pleased to hear brilliant but i was going to ask you i mean first of all we're recording this before christmas i think christmas will have happened by the time this goes out so it's a bit of an old question but tell me just tell you know people listening how does bridget and her family celebrate christmas usually so as you'll know christmas is one of the few times of the year hopefully where politics stays relatively quiet and you can have a proper break and we'll be in the northeast over christmas my kids are 14 and 10 we'll go to My mum's on Christmas Day.

4:13We'll have lunch there. But I'm just looking forward to lots and lots of long walks with our very excitable Jack Russell, Maisie, and reading lots. It's quite a good time over Christmas and the New Year period to just take a step back from the day-to-day to reflect a bit more. And going into the New Year with a sense of focus and a sense of priorities. Because as I say, one of the few times, and I say this touching wood, that politics gets a bit quieter and you do have a bit more breathing space. Are you someone who does kind of to-do lists? like are you someone who thinks you know I've got to a secretary of state here are like four or five things I want to get done in the beginning of the new year is that how you approach the job?

4:52And I've been thinking about the year ahead and there's a kind of a number of key priorities I do but to an extent you have to rule with things a bit in most of the areas in the department for education we've already set in train our kind of big policy thinking the only area that's left really is our school's white paper and that's going to come in the new year which will also cover send reform so that's been the focus of a lot of my attention it's my big priority going into the new year but actually in lots of other areas for me it's a question about making sure we're delivering on the things we've already committed to and a real focus on making that happen the other good thing about that christmas period is also that day-to-day in government you know you're working from kind of morning till night and meeting after meeting and getting through various work.

5:37The chance over Christmas just to have a slightly different pace of life, but also just to think a bit more deeply and reflect a bit more, I think is incredibly valuable. When I was in the shadow cabinet, some papers leaked. It was all a bit odd. They were pulled out of a bin by someone called Benji the bin man. And they showed how Tony Blair operated as prime minister. And he would do these handwritten lists to his team. Obviously, prime minister is different from running a department of like things he wanted kind of done this week or things he wanted the team to think about for the coming few weeks.

6:09And, you know, some politicians do sit down and say, like, I've got my, you know, education white paper, I've got to get this right on the Senate reforms. But, you know, I've got to do this with my media profile, maybe I need to see more of the backbenchers need to do this in my is that how you or do you just think that you can't really plan your life like that? And you've got to kind of go with where the job takes you each month? I think it's a bit of both. So I do tend, I'll think it through in my head, work out what my kind of priorities are and the things I want to make happen. But often politics is so all consuming.

6:41And if you're in politics, you're in it because you feel really, really passionately about it. So it shows how times have changed, I guess, since the Blair era. But I'll pull out my phone and I'll often jot down on my notes on my phone, you know, remember to, or have a think about whatever, or I should really do a visit. So I'll often just jot myself little reminder notes, and then I'll kind of pick them back up in a bigger forum later. but I'm always even if I'm out walking the dog I'm kind of walking around and I see something I think hang on that makes me think about how that connects to the role of government you know if you are really invested in politics you do spend a lot of your time just thinking about what you believe why you believe it and how you make things happen and you know if someone new was to join the cabinet the coming year which I guess is bound to happen what would your advice be to them you know You're coming up to your second Christmas in the job.

7:30Quite a lot of the cabinet have changed posts, actually, but you haven't. What have you learned? What has, I guess, been the biggest surprise? I asked Wes Streeting this question in the summer. You were obviously in the shadow cabinet, so you'd followed the education brief closely. You've been in parliament, actually, for quite a long time compared to some of your colleagues. But what has been the biggest kind of surprise you thought? I never knew that about government. Never knew that about being in the cabinet. you don't really understand how the civil service operates when you're on the outside that for me is the big thing the big machine that sits behind how government functions even though i'd spent quite a long time on a select committee the public accounts committee that we always had officials in front of us rather than ministers that was the way the committee operated yeah i was on that as well really understanding the functioning of the civil service i mean i'd once been in the department for education before i became secretary of state back in would have been 2011 12 i think I went in to meet David Laws to argue for a school to be rebuilt.

8:25One of the schools that I have to say your government decided wasn't going to go ahead, but it got rebuilt. Apologies for that. But the school got rebuilt. David Laws gave that commitment and it happened, which was fantastic. But that was my one and only experience of the Department for Education. It's quite an unassuming building from the outside. When you get inside, just the sheer vastness of it was something to behold. And I hadn't really kind of fully understood just in terms of the scale of the operation. And, you know, the Department for Education operates that right across the country, so many different ways of doing things.

8:56But I think the difference for me, and this will be different for anybody that comes subsequently into cabinet, was I did have more than two years shadowing education before becoming Education Secretary. That doesn't happen very often in having a long period of time to think about what you care about and the policies you want to introduce and what you would do if you were Secretary of State and then to have the chance to make it happen. anybody coming subsequently will be coming in midway through and I guess they will then have a question as to what matters to them what do they continue to drive forward their priorities and it's a very unique position and a real privilege to have had that chance in opposition and to have been an MP for quite a long time which I think does bring real benefits I do understand might not have understood quite how the civil service worked but I knew how parliament worked and I know how my party operates so it's a different dynamic.

9:46I mean I'm totally biased but you know I spent nine years in opposition not quite as long as you but I think that is such powerful training so that you've kind of handled the bit about how parliament works the profile of being a senior spokesperson for your party before you're actually doing the real job and as you say you've actually kind of shattered the brief and thought about it and I think you'll probably find as new people come into the government if you haven't had that it's an interesting kind of experience that you will bring to it. When you're in opposition, you really have to, as you know, you have to really fight to get a hearing.

10:22It's so different to government. And I think it instills this kind of certain discipline in you about how you want to get your message across, where you want to reach, because it's really hard for opposition parties to make the weather. What do you think? I'm going to start with the kind of big question about education. This is genuinely not partisan in any way. You know, when I was an opposition, when I was a young new opposition MP. It was all education, education, education. It was like one of the absolute big, big political issues of the day. Tony Blair, Gordon Brown were always talking about schools and hospitals, schools and hospitals.

10:56David Blunkett had his kind of literacy hour and numeracy hour and things like that. It felt like education was, you know, alongside, sort of co-equal with health as the big domestic public service issue. And that I would say today, and this would apply if I was talking to the very many Tory education secretaries who preceded you, because there was a whole string of them towards the end, that for some reason, education has sort of dropped down to off the, it's not the, I don't think anyone would say it's like one of the really big issues in British politics, even though I think if you were looking at this country, or indeed any kind of Western democracy, you'd say training up the workforce, getting the kids properly educated is as important as ever.

11:44Why do you think that is? Is it because other issues have just become more important or more strained? Is it because there's actually been, with things like academies over the Blair government and then the Cameron government and so on, more of a consensus on education, so it's less kind of politically charged? Why aren't prime ministers and opposition leaders saying education, education, education anymore? There's two things. Firstly, the progress of education over time. And secondly, the challenges in education partly sit around schools rather than always just within schools and I'll come back to that second point but firstly when Labour came into government in 97 our schools had started on a journey of change actually that began particularly under Kenneth Baker with the introduction of the national curriculum the introduction of SATs and the increasing professionalisation of teaching as a career with a new generation of head teachers who were coming through that you know i benefited from you know my year group was the first year to benefit from uh actually we were the first to say all of those uh sats tests in schools which has always stayed with me because it was you would never describe yourself as thatch as children would you that generation i think it is certainly not but i think it is really interesting that it was a conservative government that introduced the national curriculum introduced those tests at key stages because it made a real difference and it wasn't the entirety of what needed to happen but it started that process of improvement in education that I benefited from.

13:11You know I'm clear had SATs not been introduced my school would not have moved towards you know when it became clear that's what was happening we started doing times tables we started doing spelling tests that wouldn't have happened because the expectations for working class kids and communities like mine were just set too low so that process began under a conservative government It was then accelerated, I would say, under a Labour government, much more alongside. But schools in 1997 were in a very different place to 2010. The Conservative government made some changes, some of which I think were the right thing.

13:38In other areas, not so much. But they continued in a number of areas and built on the evidence around what worked. And I think the biggest change that we've seen has been around the teaching profession and school leaders. It's a very different place now to where it was, even in 1997. So there has been a lot of improvement over time. there are still some big deep-seated challenges, especially where it comes to white working-class kids and their attainment, big gaps that exist. Children with SEND, we've tolerated poor performance in too many schools for far too long. Structural change can often be the answer, but in some schools has been insufficient to drive forward progress.

14:15And alongside that, I think some of the biggest challenges schools are facing at the moment is what sits around the school, so beyond the school gate, not just within the school. so around child poverty around temporary accommodation around access to mental health services post-pandemic recovery you know young people really experienced some very challenging things during the pandemic we didn't prioritize education and recovery in the way that we should have done as a country we just expected things to return to normal that's also true of our youngest children and actually the biggest area of focus for me has been on the early years because we know all of the evidence is clear that you make the biggest difference to children's life chances before the age of five, so before they've even arrived at school.

14:54And that's what's been driving our push around childcare and early years expansion, around making sure that more children arrive at school ready to learn. Because if we can get more children into that place, it will also make it easier for schools to focus on teaching, leadership, quality and standards, not on having to pick up the pieces for wider societal failure. So I think it's both together. It's that there is a story of progress in education, I would say incomplete with big gaps. but alongside that it's about the wider approach of society to education and how that connects to public services overall.

15:26So one of the debates I had with Ed Bulls on this show you know is about the things we did in government and there are two things I did in government which attract particular criticism from Labour politicians including yourself and one is the two-child limit which now the government's getting rid of and the other was the abolition or this was more coalition policy of Sure Start. And I kind of quite often challenge Ed, you know, where there's a sort of limited amount of money. And I actually went before one of the select committees in Parliament the other day, and I said to the Labour MPs who were questioning me about this, well, you know, if you've got an extra pound, do you want to spend it on additional welfare to address what you would say is child poverty, you know, help address child poverty, hence getting rid of the two-child limit?

16:11Or why not put the money into something like Sure Start, which is about kind of addressing not so much income, but the kind of opportunity gap for early years. And I guess the question is, why haven't you or the Labour government, if you were so angry about the abolition of Sure Start, not reintroduced it? So it does have to be both. It has to be abolition of the two-child limit, which, you know, I think... Which you were a voice behind the scenes for, right? And we'll come on to the deputy leadership contest, but it's something you were making clear in that contest. It was clear to me for many, many months that it was the only way that we could make serious progress on tackling child poverty.

16:48I mean, the evidence was clear. It was the single most cost effective means of lifting the biggest number of children out of poverty. And the evidence was clear about the impact. And you and the Conservatives made a very successful political argument in terms of the framing of the introduction of the two child limit. But the impact is clear and it's there for all to see. So we did need to do that. And, you know, I would also credit, you know, I worked closely with Liz Kendall, who co-chaired the task force with me until Pat McFadden came into the Department for Work and Pensions. We'd worked on this closely.

17:18We were clear what needed to happen. But wouldn't you rather have had that two billion pounds a year for your early years work? We are alongside that investing nine billion pounds in childcare and early years education. And we are bringing back Shure Start for a new generation through Best Start Family Hubs. not on the scale of Sure Start although that of course ramped up over time but actually with a renewed focus on the early years. I mean the evidence of Sure Start is clear in terms of what it achieved but it wasn't universally successful in that some of the earlier phases when they work more closely with communities around what families wanted were more successful than some of the later phases so Sure Start was something that evolved over time it wasn't simply one programme but we are investing now in rolling out Best Start family hubs in every local authority area.

18:03We're also investing more in early help and family support services with colleagues across government. So it has to be all of it together. But, you know, the two child limit would continue to see more and more children living in poverty. That's the reality. And you can tell me, you know, your thoughts, but it was framed in a way that sought to put in place a divide between those working and those not. When, if you look at the evidence, it's clear that the majority of those who will benefit from this change are working families. And kind of single fact that has struck me most through all of this is that half of households who will be affected by the lifting of the cap are families who were not in receipt of universal credit at the point in which their children were born.

18:46You know, universal credit was designed to be an in-work benefit, designed to support people when circumstances change, designed to support people into work. It wasn't simply a question of people who were out of work. These are hardworking people doing the right thing who are ambitious for their families. But it was a grave injustice. No, no, I totally respect your view and I disagree. And two observations, not to continue the conversation, although I'd happily do. I mean, one is I think, you know, there is a kind of argument about fairness in the welfare system and supporting lifestyles or choices that many other people can't make.

19:22And I think there's definitely, I would say this, as not a very partisan person these days, a risk for this Labour government, not particularly on the two-child limit, but more broadly, that the kind of attack that this is a budget for Benefit Street, that the benefit bill is getting out of control, that the person in the street has got the brand new car because they're on the motability scheme, and no one in the rest of the street can afford a brand new car. You know, those things will start to hit home. And they did actually towards the end of the last Labour government, although the financial crisis was sort of so overwhelming, it rather obscured that.

19:55but I mean we've got a job on our hands about making the argument for this we absolutely have to make the argument I don't pretend it's easy but sometimes the right things to do aren't always the easy thing do you think I'm just on send I mean we could again spend half an hour on this I mean and let's be absolutely clear this problem has been growing for years and years and years so you don't have to make that point to me yeah but you know the budget for special education needs has been is sort of rising almost exponentially and it I think is going on like 13 % in real terms this year. And again, it's, you know, it's associated, it's perfectly understandable why, A, we're better at diagnosing children's mental health problems.

20:31Parents who previously just sort of took what they were told are now more assertive about what they want for their children, who doesn't want additional help in the classroom for your child. You know, school transport can be a nightmare, particularly for people who have mental health problems. So, So, you know, minicabs are provided. But, you know, you take a step outside of all this and it's gone a little bit crazy with all of this additional spending. It's sort of uncapped. And again, I think other parents in a school will say, well, why is my child not got the one-to-one tuition? Why am I having to somehow get my child to school when the minicab's turning up with this other?

21:09We know how human beings will feel about that kind of thing. So take the kind of bigger picture before we get on to the kind of how you're going to handle the money. What's the right answer here? So even if money were no object, I don't think you would look at the system we have at the minute and think it's working well, both in terms of outcomes for children with SEND, which are not where they should be, but also the time it often takes to get children the support that they need. I mean, of course there is a question about council deficits and the challenges that are presented. And much of this does go back to the very well-intentioned but ultimately quite flawed 2014 reforms that gave rise to what we're seeing at the moment.

21:48But driving all of this, and we're doing a lot of work with parents, with campaigners and others ahead of bringing forward reforms, is how do we deliver better life chances for children with SEND? Because SEND is a term that captures quite a lot of children with varying need, quite a range of difference that sits within that. I was at a school last week for children with complex and profound learning difficulties, a specialist provision that's different to a child for example who is autistic who with the right level of support could be within a mainstream setting but the way that the system is set up at the moment doesn't allow for early identification of need doesn't target resource where it's most effective and we wait far too long and parents have to fight and it's become very adversarial and you know i think there's over i mean where streeting actually said publicly there may be over-diagnosing, I think he was talking more broadly about mental health issues.

22:42And there are obviously clear incentives for a perfect, I mean, this is not to blame the parent, they want the best for their child to try and get their child, you know, with a statement, right? I mean, the trouble is that that is where, because of the way in which the system has been set up, the money goes to schools in that way, rather than directly to schools to accommodate a wider range of need. The other challenge, and this comes to the question about school transport, is we are sending children further and further away from home, often to expensive placements in kind of school transport, home to school transport, because we haven't created the places closer to home that can meet their needs.

23:16That doesn't have to involve standalone specialist provision, but I think it has to involve more specialist provision in mainstream schools. There are good examples of this around the country, but it's not universal. Because what parents really want is for their child to go to the local school, and they want that school to be well-equipped to meet their child's needs. But this is a huge kind of generational challenge in terms of the support that's needed. I think the question about are we diagnosing, over-diagnosing, I think risks slightly missing the point, which is if a teacher or a member of school staff is picking up that a child needs support, whether that is a diagnosable condition or otherwise, we need to be better at meeting need earlier.

23:53And do you think, I'm assuming the Treasury will kind of bail out the Education Department in the spending review? I mean, as a former Chancellor, the Chancellor will always fold and not allow for a real squeeze in education spending, I imagine. But that's not actually assured yet that you have to wait for the 27 spending review. This is because the council budgets are coming into the education budget. The council budgets have come onto the government balance sheet. I mean, these deficits started to increase 2018 onwards, quite small at first, but then grew a lot. But what we said, what was in the kind of budget documents from the Treasury, this is a question for government to consider right across, not simply for us to slightly unhelpfully, the OBR illustrated what this might look like if it were to come entirely from the core schools budget.

24:37Yeah, I guess that will be the Treasury's starting point. I, you know, the numbers involved are vast. However, these are projections around what will happen if we don't deliver a better system. And obviously the OBR can't account for any changes. You know, if we create more places closer to home and we don't have to send so many children out of area, for example, you can bring the cost down in a way that is not just in a manageable way, but is also the right thing. And what parents want, they don't want to be sending their children for an hour every day in a taxi across to another city. it's not a good situation for children to be in and that's why we're spending a lot of time engaging with parents on this with campaigners.

25:16I mean it's a very difficult issue I mean it's very difficult areas well because there are a lot of very you know well-meaning well-organized charities and you saw it with the broader reforms to the welfare system earlier this year I mean this is like very hard stuff politically. It is but it's the right thing to do and I think there is broad recognition that the system we have at the moment isn't working it was set up with good intention, but it hasn't delivered what children and families want. We will be back after this break.

25:48Welcome back. Now, you know, you could be happily getting on with this. I haven't even asked you about your Minister for Equalities brief, which you've got the whole kind of transgender issue. We could we get into that. But you were sitting there and you're thinking, you know what, what Bridget Phillips and Riddings do now is run for the deputy leadership of the Labour Party. You seem like a kind of natural candidate. So you didn't have the sort of, what the hell does she think she's doing at all. But why did you decide to run? And it all came out of the blue because Angela Rayner had to resign.

26:19I mean, it came out of the blue, but it wasn't, definitely wasn't something I was planning either. So, you know, a number of people had asked me over the weekend, so we'd had the reshuffle on the Friday. A number of people had got in touch over the weekend and said, you should really go for this. And I kind of said, I've got quite a lot on at the minute. I'm not sure about this. And then we had votes in Parliament on the Monday night and a lot of colleagues kind of spoke to me about it and I thought, you know what? And why do you think they alighted on you of all the members of the Cabinet? Because Lucy had lost her job in the Cabinet on the Friday.

26:50Lucy Powell, who now is a Deputy Leader. Why do you think they came to you? Why were you the obvious person to be one of the candidates? It's quite embarrassing to talk about yourself in this way, but the newer intake colleagues in particular and new intake MPs are the biggest proportion of the parliamentary Labour Party now by virtue of having lost so badly in 2019. But you're a veteran from 2010. From 2010, yes. Whatever the problems we might experience as a government, much, much happier times to be in government than to spend those 14 years in opposition, but especially in some of the latter end of the kind of 2019 period.

27:24but they said that they felt I had a story to tell about what Labour's for, what we're about as a party and what we're delivering across government and I think in the Department for Education we've delivered a lot in the last year or so and you were talking earlier about whether education matters to Labour governments and Labour prime ministers. If you hear Keir Starmer out talking about the achievements of this Labour government you'll hear him talking about increasing apprenticeship starts, about free school meals expansion, about new free breakfast clubs, about childcare, all things that I've led on and that we're delivering as a government.

27:58And that was part of what my colleagues were saying, that we need to tell a positive and hopeful story about what we're achieving. That's not to say we've got everything right, government's tough, but give me government any day of the week over the 14 years I spent begging you and your colleagues and others to do what I felt was right for the country, but lacking the power to actually make change happen. I mean, you talk about Keir Starmer, there had actually been, I genuinely think this was quite unfair, there was a bit of kind of commentary from quotes number 10 that, you know, is Bridget Philipson doing enough in education and there have been a row about what you were or weren't doing about academies.

28:33But suddenly you become like Keir Starmer's candidate. I mean, you may not have wanted to hear it like that, but, you know, you're the kind of leadership candidate for the deputy leadership. And Lucy, not that she's, I mean, I was an MP near Manchester, I know Lucy well, you know, I mean, she's not like the biggest rebel in the Labour movement. But, you know, she was able to say, look, I'm not, I'm obviously not in the government anymore. Do you think if you hadn't been the kind of leadership candidate, do you think you could have won? I mean, I thought it was a good outcome, actually, in the circumstances.

29:06You did actually, it was closer, I think, than many people thought it might be, right? Yeah. And, you know, there is a certain irony, as you say, that apparently I was the leadership candidate, even though people had for a long time been saying that I was out of favour. Although, you know, I've always had Kia's backing on these big areas and education does really matter to him. You know, what we have in common and actually many of us in the cabinet is that education was the route to a better life for so many of us. And that value and wanting other children to have the opportunities that I've enjoyed is central to my politics.

29:38But I really enjoyed the deputy leadership campaign. Genuinely, I mean, it was... Did you enjoy not actually having to kind of take Number 10's line on everything? You know, there was some space for you to say what you wanted to say. It was really refreshing to not be always kind of beholden to the government grid. I could go on whatever podcast I wanted to go on, just go on whatever news outlet. I mean, obviously, I'm still a member of the government. And, you know, you still held to kind of collective responsibility on these things. But actually just being able to frame an argument, to say a bit more about what I came into politics to achieve, what I believe in, I really enjoyed that.

30:13Has it changed you as that experience? Because that's, you know, the first time you were running for essentially a national office off your own, albeit within the Labour movement, but, you know, off your own name. It has made me reflect on how we get our message across, how we communicate the story of the government and how I explain what it is I believe in. And you feel more, less grid-beholding post-contest than before? Well, I think it reinforced to me, and this is a view that's shared by many colleagues across government and where there is work underway about really does that approach to media fit with a very kind of fragmented media landscape where people consume news and current affairs in a very, very different way to even...

30:51You mean it's all a bit old-fashioned kind of 1990s, you know... If the M &A have got a big announcement on... Clinton, Blair era, you know, Anastasia Campbell era kind of, you know, whereas now Boris Johnson was not beholden to any grid. And I know it all ended in tears, but he was, you know, very successful. We've got different audiences. So you can be speaking to more than one group at the same time because the way that people consume news these days. So just if the MOD had a big announcement on, you know, defence procurement or whatever, that's not to say I can't then speak to parenting influences about the work we're doing on childcare.

31:24these are different audiences and you know we've done a lot as a department on reaching people where they are so we've got quite a lot of retail you know policy that you know parents are interested in families are interested in teachers are interested in how do we use some of those online content creators and influencers to reach those people in a way that we can't and also you know i do still knock on doors a lot it is not uncommon for people to say i haven't really been following the news it's too depressing i've just turned it off people are disengaging from some of the big outlets that they would have you know consumed news through in the past and we have to adapt and change to that there is work going on in government about how we do that because the landscape is so different even to when you know to when i was first elected in 2010 and the deputy leadership contest did make me think quite seriously about how we reach a wider range of audiences how we try to make the weather a bit and also sometimes you've got to take a risk you know and we've done that in the department with some of our social media recently some of which has attracted mixed responses.

32:23But sometimes you do have to just take a bit of a risk on trying to engage people. I mean, if you want to be the deputy leader of the Labour Body, it seems to me, why not also want to be the leader of the Labour Body? I'm not saying there's a vacancy. I'm not saying maybe, you know, Kirsten will be the Prime Minister for years to come. But it's quite hard to say if you run for deputy leader, I'd never want to be the leader of the Labour Body. I mean, I think it's unwise to ever kind of rule yourself out of wanting to do things. However, Wes rules himself in. When asked who would make a great leader of the Labour Party, he said like himself.

32:57I've always felt it's important to... Bridget's got a wry smile on her face at this point. Wes is never backwards and coming forwards, Brasson. But I mean, this will sound a bit twee, but I do mean it. I've always thought it's important to actually focus on what you're doing in the here and now, not just because it matters that I've got a big job in education, but that always looking one step ahead I think you risk actually not enjoying or relishing or really doing everything you can in the job that you currently hold and so many people over political careers have been looking to what the next step will involve and where that will take them just focus on what you're doing do it well that's what matters most life's too short you know to think Think about the next step.

33:42Focus on what you're doing. I am genuinely really proud of what we've been achieving. Being the education secretary in a Labour government is something that very, very few people have ever had the chance to do. It's an enormous privilege. And that alone in my life is something really special. I mean, presumably you would want, maybe I shouldn't presume this, that the next leader of the Labour Party should be a woman. I mean, one thing I'd say is, I mean, obviously you've got the first female chancellor in Rachel. you know obviously there have been several female education secretaries but it's kind of striking isn't it that i mean the tory parties have four female leaders current leader is also a woman and she had two two leaders from an ethnic minority background and the labor movement the great movement of social justice in the 20th 21st century the labor party has not had a female leader i mean it is striking it's hard to explain not to justify yeah i mean i've you know i voted for Yvette Cooper back in the day to become the first Labour woman leader.

34:42And sadly, we took a different path as a party. Yeah, I think, well, not everyone would agree, but at this podcast, I think they all would agree that we should have had Yvette over Jeremy. Where would you locate yourself inside the Labour movement? I was looking, you know, you voted for David Miliband to be the Labour leader in 2010 and Yvette Cooper in 2015 and then Keir Starmer. And, you know, you're described as sort of centre, centre right within the Labour movement. Is that fair? I mean, how would you, I know, I know there are lots of different factions and like it's all a bit of a mystery to people on the outside.

35:21Where would you kind of locate yourself in the Labour family? Don't say I'm in favour of everything. I mean, these terms are generally imprecise and they're imprecise in the Labour Party. I think some of the views I hold are more associated with different groups rather than others. I've always been seen as being on the labour right which is true to an extent but then I've always believed in you know lifting the two-child limit which was not always seen as you know as a policy of the right of the labour right but I'm in I come from kind of a you know working class labour tradition which is about winning elections holding power and delivering change for working people.

36:01That means I'm quite pragmatic about what we need to do. This is not the kind of London intellectuals and because the Labour movement was often an alliance wasn't it of exactly working class people often industrial towns and cities and then more a kind of you know the hamster garden suburb types or Islington types. I mean I love to read and consume politics and history so you know I know all of that side of things but I've always felt that the greatest failure of the Labour Party has been our failure to win elections and ultimately that betrayal of working people. You know, the Labour Party was founded to give power and voice and representation to working people, to assume political power, to make change happen.

36:40I've never been a part of the tradition which is let's feel good about ourselves with banners and placards and feel virtuous and win the argument and not win the election. But my views are broadly kind of mainstream centre Labour views. I suppose the difference as well when you're a female politician is that my approach to feminism as well also shapes and informs my politics, which is something that... Although that's been quite a contested issue within the liberal left over views of feminism tied in. I wasn't going to ask you about the trans rights, but since you bring it up, I mean, you're actually the person now responsible for delivering what's going to be a very hard to draft document, I imagine, which is essentially government policy on the rights of transgender people, the rights of women, and all in the light of the Supreme Court judgment.

37:28So I used to run a women's refuge and I know how important it is that women have spaces but are women-only spaces. And feminists and campaigners fought for a very, very long time to establish that principle. And it is an important principle, but it's there for good reason because it's about safety for women and about having the space and the time to really heal after trauma. But I don't see that as being in conflict with making sure that you can treat trans people with dignity and respect as well. We have had the Supreme Court ruling, which I welcome. I've now received the Code of Practice from the EHRC.

38:01We've got to go through that properly and thoroughly. But in recent times, trans people have been used as a political punch bag in order to make an argument. We've got to kind of take a step back from this and do it responsibly. You know, when I was the Tory Chancellor, the biggest single donor to the Labour Party was J.K. Rowling. And now she's presumably a hate figure in some parts of the left. So it's just an incredibly complicated space, isn't it? It is. And I think where the majority of the British people are on this topic is they accept that there are times when you do need women-only provision and there are questions of fairness around sports.

38:39And you mean people born biologically as a woman? Yes. So questions of fairness in sport. You know, of course, if people are sent to prison, they have to be held safely. And that means women-only prisons, for example. I think that's where the majority of people are. But at the same time, we're a compassionate nation, common sense in our approach. We don't, you know, abuse or target trans people because of who they are. That's not, I don't think, in keeping with what people would believe. But you do need to make sure you've got kind of fairness in areas like sport and good access to services for women.

39:11I mean, the challenge over a long time hasn't just been about campaigners arguing to get, for example, women's refuges. I spent a lot of time arguing over many years with councils about, actually, if you're going to deliver homelessness provision, you want to make sure you've got good provision for young women who have different needs to young men. Often those young women might have experienced sexual abuse in childhood. It's not appropriate for them to be accommodated alongside older men who also have their own problems. It's those kinds of questions. And I think we've slightly lost focus on why it was in the first place that we believed that women only space has mattered.

39:45I mean, it seems to me what you apply is a kind of good dose of kind of common sense of where most people are on this issue. And maybe more broadly on other issues, which is why you've been successful in politics. I mean, you are, you know, you've got a seat up in Sunderland. Isn't this the sort of front line for Labour in the fight against reform? And for someone, you know, with your background who cares passionately about these issues of social justice. And I mean, how do you explain that the community you grew up in, so many people are very attracted now to Nigel Farage and reform? And you presume you don't think the people you grew up with are stupid or being duped.

40:21I mean, these, you know, Nigel Farage is not new in British politics. He's been around for a long time. So you can't say, well, you know, it's a kind of flash in the pan. What is it? I mean, why particularly communities like yours seem like, as I say, the place where reform is gaining real traction at the moment? I think there's a deep sense of frustration about the state of the country and particularly public services. And I hold big regular meetings where I put out thousands of letters and surveys. People come along town hall style. People can say and raise anything they want. Some people will raise questions about immigration.

40:54but actually by majority people will raise access to NHS dentistry, lack of social housing, potholes. It's been that steady erosion of many of the things that they really care about. And there's just an incredible volatility to our politics. I think a volatility that we can probably trace back to the referendum in 2016, where since then, you know, some very odd kind of movements between parties and in terms of voting behaviour, both in terms of 2017 and 2019. but also for us as a party to have overturned that crushing defeat in 2019, so convincingly by 2024, I think in and of itself demonstrates, but it demonstrates in and of itself that the degree of vote and movement and volatility, if you can go from the worst defeat in your history to pretty much one of the best ever results in your party's history, there's something going on in politics.

41:44But you would know, because you're smart at all this, that one of the principal reasons Labour did so well, And by the way, I'll be the first to say Keir Starmer did a very good job as leader of the opposition. Rachel Reeves did a really good reassurance job on the economy and for business in opposition. And, you know, you collectively look very professional. But come on, the massive split in the right vote between reform and conservatives let in tons of Labour MPs and Liberal Democrat MPs on a very low share of the vote for Labour. and you know if you get to the next election if somehow i mean god knows how and you know we could have a whole separate podcast on this like reform and the conservatives form some sort of pact i mean the late party's not remotely ready for that and that could wipe out a lot of that majority overnight and that's not in your gift you have no idea what the Tory party and reform are going to do so how do you kind of you know lucy powell's argument when she pipped you to the post of the deputy leader was we mustn't try and out reform reform because i think you know if you're putting the best version of the sort of downing street argument is like okay we're kidding ourselves this is a mortal threat to our majority this party reform and if we don't lean into it and do something about it and pretend we you know just by being nice to the greens we're going to get through this that's naive so despite where we are at the moment and everything that's going on I do genuinely believe that Labour can win a second term.

43:13And as you say, we can't control for what the Conservatives and reform decide to do. Although I don't think, even if there were to be some kind of agreement, that it would necessarily lead to the outcome that you've described. I think what we saw in 2024 and what we will see into the future is a significant degree of voters voting tactically in order to secure a better outcome. And at the next general election, that is going to be a big and profound choice about the future of our country. Now, you can ask people now how they feel, and that's a snapshot in time. But come the next election, there will be a really big question for voters, a really big choice about the future of the country, whether they really want someone like Nigel Farage, given everything he said around NATO, around Putin, around the future of the NHS, much, much more besides whether they really want someone like that leading our country.

44:03And this is some way off. And I think the key test for this Labour government is, Yes, we can make an argument, but I think it's a question of showing and not telling. So people want to see change in their lives. They want to see their communities improve. They want to feel better off. The key test at the next election will be whether people feel the country is on the right path, whether they feel better off, whether they feel public services have improved significantly. This is what we need to hold ourselves to. or whether they're prepared to risk it all with reform, which is at one level, whether this is very different to what's gone before, but in many ways, a pretty standard end of a first term government where you seek to make an argument about the progress you've delivered so far, but what more is to come, but crucially, what's at risk?

44:48And I think the risks are enormous for the country and will not be adequately exposed, I think, until we get closer to that election. Now, we've got to do a better job of exposing some of that risk. You know, I don't want to ask you about the endless speculation about the Labour leadership and so on. But it must be frustrating, isn't it? I mean, you know, I was working in the Leader of the Opposition's Office in like 1998, 1999. I mean, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, they were 40 % ahead of us and 4-0 % ahead. I mean, by this point, 18 months into that Labour government, they were unstoppable. And here we are, a similar period, going, and it's just as someone who's clearly passionate about, the Labour Party and the issues it fights for, you must be unbelievably frustrated that can't seem to kind of get its act together in terms of an overall message.

45:37Of course, it's frustrating. You know, I look at the polls, I'm not blind to them. But I do genuinely believe that what we're doing will bear fruit and it will take time. We've got to demonstrate that we're going as fast as we can because people are impatient for change. And that's, you know, the conversations I have in my constituency, the meetings I hold, there's a real impatience. People want things to get better and they want it to get better fast. And I completely understand that. I think the difficulty that we have, we had in 2024 compared to 97 is not only did we have public services on their knees, but the public finances were in terrible shape.

46:12A slightly better situation in 97 than was the case. You know, we've got that double whammy of public services on their knees plus the set of really challenging public finances. You know, I think back to - Come on, there's also been like, you know, we're getting rid of the Winterfell payment. No, we're not. we're changing pip no we're not you know we're going to raise everyone's income tax no we're not i mean there's quite a lot of own goals look we've unquestionably we've made mistakes and we've got things wrong but the test from whenever you make a mistake wherever you get something wrong the key test is do you learn from it and do you improve in future and that's what we've got to do and we've got to deliver i mean it's people kind of slightly wince when you talk about delivery but it's actually about people feeling and seeing the change that you've brought and they do need to see it and feel it.

46:56And we've got to go faster on that. But we've got, you know, a strong record and there'll be more to come from next year with, you know, whether it's, you know, as I say, areas, you know, in my area around things like free school meals, around putting more money back into people's pockets. The changes that we're bringing right across the board will make a difference. But this is a very volatile, it's a volatile world, a lot going on. You can't kind of move away from the news for a few minutes without something happening. You know, there's volatility both at home and abroad. But I think also going into the next election, that is going to be a key factor.

47:30Can the country really trust someone like Nigel Farage to keep our country safe? The problem with that, that's the approach the Democrats took in America with Trump and ultimately Americans said Trump. I mean, I think what's fascinating looking at your career is there are two different kind of types of politician in you. And I'm wondering whether in 2026, you can sort of bring them together. There's part of it is very traditional, which is you join the Labour Party young, you go to Oxford University, you're chairing the Oxford Labour Club, as like generations of former Labour politicians do, you're into Parliament very young, you're straight onto the front bench, you don't serve when the crazies are in charge, you're back in, now you're in the cabinet and so on, you run for the deputy leadership.

48:12And you know, you're clearly in the best sense of the word ambitious for you and your political career. And then you're also the girl from the working class family, a difficult upbringing, not upbringing, I think your mum sounds like an amazing person. You know, there's the women's refuge that she sets up. When you leave Oxford, you don't head off to London. You go back to Sunderland. You work for the local council. You help run the refuge. And how do you think, you know, having had a dry run, maybe not a real sort of dry run, I've used that word, it's the wrong, having had a real run at the deputy leadership contest and thinking about how people saw you and how you presented yourself.

48:50How do you bring all of that together? The kind of super smart, ambitious, classic kind of political route to the top and the person with your very special and unusual background. I suppose part of what I had to overcome in the deputy leadership contest was I've always been someone that's a party person and always felt slightly uncomfortable in talking about myself. And I did it more from opposition in order to tell a story about what I believed, but I'd never really done it much before because I'm really proud of where I'm from. And, you know, we had our challenges in terms of poverty, but a wonderful, loving family and a great community.

49:31But I always felt a bit uncomfortable in talking about myself. but what I came to realise is that actually my experiences have really shaped not just who I am as a person but they've shaped and informed my politics and they shape and inform that every day you know when I'm sat in meetings in the department for education we're talking about policy and we're talking about what we're going to do and how we're going to deliver it I do think back to you know I have in my mind's eye you know some of the children I met when I was working in the refuge and you know so when I was thinking when we were thinking about children social care reform I was thinking about some of those children who I won't name but I know by name and about what they had experienced and what I was trying to achieve to stop more children like them having those kinds of experiences and make life better so I feel you know incredibly fortunate that I went from my kind of background to where I am today but I'm now in a position to try and make sure that more children have those opportunities and I feel very fortunate I feel very lucky sometimes you know luck plays a big factor in where people get to people are very keen often to talk about how their personal determination and hard work and i'm not that's not to diminish i worked hard that's not to diminish the elements of hard work and determination but stories of success against the odds are not what my politics is about my politics is about freedom and opportunity for more young people and actually a recapturing of this idea of freedom from the left, which is, I think the role of government is to give people freedom in their lives, to allow them to make the choices and decisions that they want, not to be constrained or held back by their background.

51:14Bridget, thank you so much for coming to this studio. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I think people are going to love this episode over the new year. You get a bit of a rest, take the dog for a walk, and then come back in 2026, raring to go. Thank you. Thanks very much.

51:34thanks so much to Bridget for coming into our studio here in Hoxton to do that interview I wish her all the best for the coming year as I do for everyone of course who listens to this podcast because this is the final political currency episode of 2025 thank you so much to all of you listened watched and shared the show we'll be back on Monday with our what ifs special EMQs. We did one of those in August and it was so popular. We've had so many people asking for more what-ifs that we've decided to do another what-if show. And you'll get it on Monday unless, of course, you are a subscriber. And if you were gifted a gold or kitchen cabinet subscription from Santa in your stocking, then you'll get this special treat for the weekend.

52:17I hope you enjoy it. Do you think our listeners are either hungover on New Year's Day or up at the crack of dawn because they were early to bed? What sort of people are they? I think some of them will have been in a white tie on a table at 4am, twirling cricket bats around and drinking champagne. But most of them will just be kind of getting up and having a good English breakfast and thinking, here comes the new year. And we wish you a very happy new year. You can do both, actually. You can do, as you have proved. See you soon. See you then.

52:52Thanks for listening to Political Currency. This has been a Persephoneca production. one the