Christmas EMQs: Who is the ultimate political traitor?

0:15This is Political Coancy with Ed Balls and George Osborne.

0:26so hello and welcome to our very special christmas emqs we have a bottle of champagne here happy christmas george i persuaded george that it is possible to drink champagne without getting onto the table and swirling the bottle around his head and he has not come in tails and so you know a post bullington glass of champagne merry christmas i think there was a bullington and breakfast once a year as well. Do you still have it? No, of course not. Not for 40, you know, 35 years. Do you have reunions? No. Well, I mean, unless you call the cabinet a reunion. If somebody organised a reunion, who would be the best person to organise that?

1:01I mean, Boris Johnson, I don't think he'd be the right person. David Cameron is good at organising things. If you were to have the whole lot together in one big shindig. Well, some of them have died. It's quite a binary outcome. Some go on to be Prime Minister and some sadly die. and um how many would there be there were a couple very sadly yeah no no i mean how many people would come to the reunion oh i don't know actually has it not been totted up i don't think it's as fashionable as it once was i don't know it's amazing what a photo can do so shall we get on there is actually a reunion there's did you know about something called the canning club at oxford no there was this kind of another one i didn't get invited to it wasn't a It wasn't like the Bullying Club or whatever.

1:43It was a kind of discussion group. You know, each time it met, someone had to present a paper. And then people sat around and discussed it. And I was the secretary to the Canning Club. And there's a reunion on in the new year. This is George Canning, the former prime minister. Where was he prime minister? In the early part of the 19th century. What was he distinguished for? It's a good question, actually. I think he's sort of seen as a sort of prototype of like modern conservatism. I just wish I'd been invited. Well, you were at the Labour Club. Well, I didn't go to the Labour Club. Did you not?

2:16I went to one meeting of the Labour Club. The Oxford Labour Club? In my first week. But they were all, I thought all of you, all the people who later ran the country, like the Milibands and whatever, they were all in the Labour Club. I went to a meeting of the Labour Club in my first week and they were having a debate about the new Labour Club banner and whether to put on the new Labour Club banner the hammer and sickle. And they voted to put it on. And I thought that is kind of the end of it. I mean, who was it? James Pennell, Ruth Kelly, the Millimans. I thought they were all over here. I was not a participant in that.

2:47I also went to my first meeting of the Left Caucus in Cable College in my first week, whereby, by the way, my tutorial partner, Paul Johnson, soon to be head of the IFS. He was my economics tutorial partner all the way through. In my first meeting of the Left Caucus, I said, you know, but surely the market economy is a better way to deliver growth and social justice. You know, I said, what is wrong with capitalism anyway? and they looked at me like I was totally totally mad and that was I didn't go back to left caucus much either so you know I was new labour before new labour was even invented I know Tony Blair often says of all the people who are my strongest supporters that Ed Balls was number one look I think he's right but he didn't always understand it um shall we get to our first question yeah look oh here's a good one our first question comes from someone we both know and uh I guess is Britain's top TV star, isn't she?

3:37Claudia Winkleman. Ed and George, it's Claude. Number one, happy Christmas. Number two, traitors and faithful. So in the world of politics, top faithful, top traitor, please. Happy New Year. Bye. Happy New Year and a very happy Christmas too, Claudia. And we are going to so miss you with Tess on Strictly in 2026. I mean, they have been the most professional, funny, generous pairing in British television, I think, ever. But I think it's great. I think they've shown a lot of self-discipline in quitting at the top. I think quite often in TV, I mean, they've already been doing it for years, but people go on and on and on until they're literally kind of dragged out or taken out in a box.

4:23But in their case, I think they've quit at the top of their game. And that shows a lot of kind of discipline and self-knowledge. Absolutely, definitely. And Strictly will be the poor for it. But as you say, it's a juggernaut, still with very many millions watching it every week. And so it will carry on. It'll be fascinating to see who and how they replaced Tess and Claude. But Claude's gone on to... Are you not been interviewed for it? Unlike you, George. I don't feel the need to apply for every one of these jobs when I read about them in the newspaper. I don't know. Do people approach me? Look, you know, no is the answer.

4:51I'd like to say my people are talking to their people, but no. What about celebrity traitors? I bet you love to hear that. I think the problem, if you're a former politician like you and me, you know, we just kind of wear this big label around our heads. A treacherous bastard. You mean we'd be voted out immediately? I think you've basically got no chance. Whatever you do, if you're nice, they'll assume you're a traitor. And if you're nasty, they'll assume you're a traitor. I mean, absolutely no chance. I'm afraid. Oh, it's a hard life. It's a hard life these ex-politicians have. It's really tough.

5:20Let's go to Claudia's question. Top faithful. I think we should do this year at all time. This year. Okay, right. Top faithful this year. I'm going to choose the former business secretary, Johnny Reynolds, who suddenly out of the blue in the reshuffle in September becomes the chief whip. He's no idea why. Probably doesn't want to be. Not the job he wanted. Just launched his industrial strategy. Makes no sense at all. But he just knuckles down and gets on with the job and does his best. And proper faithful. let's be honest at a time when i'm not sure faithfuls are being rewarded no is he doing the job well as chief i guess it's hard to know as a chief well i mean what's the kind of mood in the parliamentary body they think is good i think the big rebellions which happened earlier and were appallingly mishandled have um not been happening more recently that's because the government's not doing anything to challenge the uh parliamentary body anyway you asked whether the chief whip is having a quieter time than the previous chief whip i think the answer is definitely OK, so I guess my top faithful, it's Bridget Phillipson, because I think, you know, she's doing well as education secretary.

6:30The vacancy comes up because Angela Rayner resigns for deputy leadership and she puts herself forward as the leadership candidate, which is, let's be honest, a bit of a hospital pass. Despite all the shit which had been thrown at her by number 10 in previous months, or at least allegedly briefings against Bridget Phillipson coming from the centre. and uh she does actually credit us pretty well you know so how about top faithful of all time i'm going to choose oh can't we do the traitors let's do the trade this year's trade okay fine this year's trade oh well it's obvious this year this is traitor is clearly 2025 has got to be robert jenrich hasn't it oh why well because i mean he has spent the whole of the year campaigning to take the job off the person who beat him in the leadership election at the end of 2024 who's he being a traitor to well i mean he's to be a traitor you have to betray a cause i don't think he was ever in the kemi badenock cause no but i think if you think about this from kemi badenock's point of view from you know the the conservative i mean don't you think his behavior is a bit traitorous i mean it may be wise i mean look traitors can win as well as fake i don't think he's just showing what you can do in opposition i think he's taking a maximalist interpretation of his brief look jonathan ross was a traitor in plain sight and we all sat there watching the traitors screaming at the television it's obviously jonathan ross just look at him and politically over the last year people have been screaming kemi kemi look at rob jenrick he is the jonathan ross of conservative politics it's in plain sight well alan carl was reasonably in plain sight because he would giggle every time he was asked but anyway i didn't spot that what about so you got rob I mean, what about Danny Kruger?

8:08I mean, the Tory MP elected in Wiltshire. Basically, anyone could have got elected. Any Tory would have got elected in that seat. It was definitely not on the basis of Danny's local campaigning and the like. Cameroon. Yeah, he was David Cameron's speechwriter, you know, Old Etonian, all that. And he's gone to be the kind of henchman for reform. Although I suspect, you know, knowing Danny and I actually, you know, I don't agree with quite all his politics, but, you know, he's a good person. He's fundamentally a person motivated by trying to do the right thing in politics. I think he's going to end up, put it this way, you know, if I was Farage, I wouldn't be surprised if one day I wake up and Danny Kruger's kind of left as well.

8:51So, you know, that's the trouble with taking on board these people. You know, I used to endlessly try and get defectors to the Tory party. But once you've got them, you've got to hold on to them. so all time top faithful now i am aware of the irony in saying this but i'm going to propose john prescott right top faithful i mean you know why the irony well in his personal life he had a few issues didn't he oh i see but politically he was croquet dawnywood he was the ultimate faithful deputy leader he backed tony blair and gordon brown all the way through he never showed side He never chose. He always put the interests of the party of the government first.

9:34And he was he was he was a good man. And so I think he's top faithful all time. OK, I don't know all time top faithful because, I mean, that's that's a hard one. I think in my time in politics, all time in my living. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I had lunch with him last week and I only see him every six months, partly because he's having a wonderful time with his wife traveling around in his retirement to places in Europe. But I had lunch with Oliver Lewin, and he is an utterly civilized, nice, intelligent, decent, quite unpartisan person who did an enormous amount to make the coalition government work.

10:15I mean, like a huge, huge amount. And he got very, you know, he was not never the person kind of getting the credit for it, But he was the person kind of fixing the deals, making sure people whose noses were put out of joint, you know, the noses were back into joint. It was one of the most bizarre decisions of the Theresa May Premiership to fire him because he actually was preparing the ground for the Theresa May Premiership before she became Prime Minister the week or so beforehand. When he went, all the wiring was pulled out of essentially the cabinet office and they didn't, you know, they really struggled to kind of replace him.

10:50And then he ends up being literally the person who causes most angst to the May government with his amendments on the European Union and all of that. So I think he is top faithful and he was faithful to regimes before him. He was faithful to Ian Duncan Smith and Michael Howard as previous leaders. So to get him to be in a position where he's difficult is extremely hard. And I think he's one of the sort of unsung nice guys of British politics in recent years. So top traitor of all time. Look, I mean, this one's going to be so obvious. We're going to agree. He'd be gutted if we didn't name him. It's got to be, it's got to be Michael Gove.

11:30I mean, surely the traitor of the 21st century in British politics. The case for, my friend, is first of all, ditching Cameron, saying he's not going to have any part in the referendum campaign, then chairing Vote Leave. and then chairing Boris Johnson's leadership campaign and stabbing him in the back. Yeah, but I think he was faithful to the causes he believed in. Faithful. You know, he'd always been, you know, unlike Boris Johnson, who probably didn't really want to leave the EU, Michael Gove had always said he would. Unlike Boris Johnson, who was always, you know, very clear he'd be a very good prime minister, Michael Gove had spent most of his career thinking Boris Johnson wouldn't be a very good prime minister and had a momentary lapse when he thought he might be.

12:20I mean, can you imagine being in the room with you and Michael and David Cameron? I can, because I was there. 2013. I can absolutely imagine it. I remember it very clearly. As portrayed inside the room where he says, you know, David, don't have a referendum on the European Union and Britain's membership because it will split the Conservative Party. And then David Cameron decides to have one anyway. And what does Michael Gove do? splits a conservative party when i was thinking inside the room the same cast of characters when michael was telling us he was going to support leave and he was saying you know but i won't play a big part in the campaign and i did predict i did say this will be the end of the cameroon project and the cameroon and our band of brothers and sisters um yeah okay but um who Who else is a...

13:11Labour was always... Labour's very hard on its splitters, isn't it? I mean, Ramsey MacDonald, the first Labour prime minister, is still kind of castigated by Labour. The people who left to join the SDP, like Shirley Williams and Roy Jenkins and David Owen. When I arrived at the Kennedy School of Government in 1988 to do my master's degree, I arrived the same September as Shirley Williams. And there was a profile of her in the Kennedy School magazine, September 1988. professor dick newstead and his new wife our new professor of political practice shirley williams founder of the british labor party i think they got the history wrong um and uh she wasn't a fan of the labor party she tried to destroy it but unfortunately or fortunately depending on your point of view she failed yeah although she was great supporter of the coalition government of course she was leader of the liberal democrats in the lords uh during the coalition years she was a good person but i think probably for very many labour people should have the phrase traitor hung around her neck that is a fabulous question claudia thank you very much indeed and a very happy new year to you and all the family our next question comes from hamel who's asked us a question before but we're not against our regular listeners asking us a few questions and he keeps asking such good ones hey george and ned merry christmas i just wondered during christmas did you receive any nice stationery or any classic style diaries for the following year and also what typical presents do you buy for your friends and family so nice stationery and um classic styled diaries i mean presumably that's what you got from your next door neighbor every year sam cam and oh right smithson drawing on the smithson range i don't know whether they were um you know seconds or whether they were kind of top of the range do you know i was given a nice smithson's notebook the day and were you no i wasn't no no not not by the cameras did you give the cameras wallpaper um no i don't know i didn't give cameras wallpaper it would be a bit odd to turn up with a few rolls of wallpaper although number 10 although at the time it was quite controversial wasn't it no number 10 could have done with a i got number 11 redecorated while i was there by getting lots of companies not not my um family firm what do you buy thea what do i buy her for presents Oh, gosh, that's revealing a bit much, isn't it?

15:34Maybe like pieces of art or jewellery? Yvette always wants a camera. She's always lost or broken the one from the year before. And she's got one on her phone. Have you not pointed out that function yet? I know, but she likes twisting the lens. And I also tend to buy Kit Heath jewellery. Although one year, I actually did, things were a bit under pressure. And actually, one of my staff members was passing Peter Jones in Sloane Square. So they popped in and sent me the photo. And I said, yeah, I'll have that one. That's how I did my Christmas present shopping. Oh, my gosh. It's the thought that counts, isn't it?

16:04It is the thought. Thank you, Hamill. Very good question. But why is Hamill asking this question about stationery and classic style diaries? I do. No, but I was going to say, I was given a really nice Smeisen notebook the other day for some event I spoke at as a kind of, you know, thanks for doing it. Was that it? No, well, then I carried it around all afternoon because I said, well, I can't just sort of not have this really nice Smeisen's book, which in a previous era I would have absolutely loved to have. And then, you know, it's just been sitting at home empty because I just do all my notes and everything on my phone.

16:37It goes into that pile in the corner of the room, which is the pile of notebooks and diaries. Yes, it does a bit. The world moves on. That was a very good question, Hamill. We'll take a break and then we'll be back with another question after this. Welcome back. Our next question comes from an old friend of both of ours, actually. For my part, we were on Strictly Together. We present Good Morning Britain together. And all around fabulous guy, Rob Rinder. Hi, George and Ed. This is Rob Rinder. I've got a couple of questions for your special festive EMQs. The first one is a bit of a bleak one. We've seen anti-Semitism rising across British life this year in ways that feel deeper than headlines or online noise.

17:20If you're being completely honest, where do you think it's really coming from? what in our national character is giving it space do you think to reappear and a lighter supplemental for you george do you really think you'd have done better on strictly than ed happy christmas rob first of all i have a very happy memory of visiting rob in his rehearsal studio i think in battersea when he was competing against you yeah and i went to see him practicing one of his dances and i don't for a second think i would have done better than you so um i mean i think you and i have roughly similar dancing ability but i think you had more a chutzpah to to pick up on the uh you know jewish theme of the uh serious half of the question you think you have similar dancing ability to me yeah in your dream well it's actually quite hard yeah i know i don't think you made it look easy look i've seen you dance i don't think you quite understand how hard what I did was.

18:17No, I think you, it was very laboured. But you did it with great humour. I think the Brits love, you know. I can't tell you how often people say to me, you know, they say I've been ballroom dancing all my life and actually what you did was really difficult. Well done. People underestimated it. Why did Craig give you all those low scores? Does that happen? It happens a lot. Really? A lot. Can I just pick up an issue there? The Gangnam style is not really ballroom dancing. It's because it was Latin. That was a salsa. Yeah, but it's not a salsa. It's just like. I mean, there's ballroom and Latin.

18:46All right. Or whatever. But what I mean is it... It's Latin. It's not Boreham. It's Latin. Okay, but it's not... But we're similar. You know, our understanding of dancing is similar. Yeah. But let me just let you into that little secret. What's the difference? Latin is Latin and Boreham's Boreham. People can be the champion of Boreham. It's like it's a whole different musical dance tradition. Or waltzes and things. Or waltzes and things. Are they basically more kind of Western? Waltz, a foxtrot, a Paso Doble. Hold on. Paso Doble sounds quite Latin to me. No, no. Sorry. Tango. Really? Yeah. Tango is a ballroom.

19:14Tango is Latin, isn't it? No. Tango is a ballroom dance. Really? I think so. At this point, I don't actually... You absolutely know. Sweet FA. Tango is a ballroom dance. But a sultzer, a cha-cha, a samba. I would have thought of it. Cha-cha-cha. Yeah, but cha-cha is more of a 1920s... No, that's a Charleston. Charleston. Charleston, Charleston. Anyway, I think we shouldn't go any further because let's just say that I... Bring back Claudia Winkleman. I was beaten by Rob Rinder in week 10 of Strictly in the dance-off. And would you have got to week 10? No, I don't think I would, no. Okay, let's get to the serious question.

19:51I think there has always been within Britain for hundreds of years a deep strain of anti-Semitism on the right and on the left. And you see that in every generation. And what every generation does is it tries to find an ostensible explanation for what ends up being antisemitism. And we've seen antisemitism rising rapidly for over 10 years in our country again. So it precedes all of the more recent events in the Middle East. But what happens is, sometimes it's an economic argument about power, and sometimes it's a political argument about conflict or genocide. And people use events as a cloak for antisemitism.

20:37And I think that's what we've seen over the last few years since the terrible events of October the 7th and the Hamas attack on Israel and then the Israeli response. And it is perfectly legitimate to protest against the actions of the state of Israel in Gaza and in the Middle East. It is always wrong and massive mistake to blur the boundary between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism. But there is no doubt forces in our country which deliberately use the cloak of criticism of Israel as a veneer for that more basic and deep-rooted anti-Semitism and I think that's what we've seen in recent years and so there's been more protests against Israel because of events but it brings out that deep fundamental anti-Semitism and it has been a time where I think as a consequence it's been very frightening and dangerous and alienating and terribly sad to be a British Jewish citizen because because anti-Semitism is is rife and real in our country yeah I basically agree with a lot of that but this way people who say no no I'm fed up with all this talk of anti-Semitism it's just criticism of Israel you know legitimate criticism of Israel's foreign policy I think misses the point you're making which is there are very deep long-standing forces of anti-Semitism in British society and indeed among some of the newly arrived immigrant communities in Britain.

22:05And, you know, as memories fade of the Holocaust, the Holocaust survivors start to die of the last remaining ones, start to die of old age, you know, it's just becoming further removed from those horrific events, which I think for several decades kind of put a lid on those anti-Semitic forces. all that said i think that you know it is worth also saying to my you know jewish friends that i think it's also a mistake to say that unless you are a 100 supporter of the actions of the state of israel or the netanyahu government and of course lots of you say well no no no but you know there are people who feel very very strongly who are not anti-semitic that what Israel did or has done in Gaza, despite the horrific attack on October 7th, was not justified and that the world didn't do enough to call it out.

22:57And so, you know, I think it's a mistake if you're part of the British jury to sort of say, you know, a criticism of Israel leads inevitably to mean you're anti-Israel, which means you don't want Israel to exist, which means you support people who want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth again. You know, I think that's a mistake as well. And I think it's really important that people hear the healthy side of Israeli democracy, which is the many people in Israel who have big questions and have been very critical of the Israeli government. Over the last year, I met Ehud Barak, a very renowned ex-Israeli prime minister.

23:35He couldn't have been a stronger critic of Israel's actions in Gaza. So I think there's like lessons on all sides but the main thing is you know this is deeply worrying people are being intimidated in britain we shouldn't allow that and we have to be utterly vigilant and ruthless in trying to deal with antisemitism thank you rob and um a tough question but a very important one and a very very happy new year to you we'll take a break and then be back for another question

24:11Welcome back. Our next question is from Rachel. Hi, Ed and George. I hope all's well. What are the books you love the most this year and might recommend for Christmas gifting or reading? Thank you so much for your time, Rachel. So what's your book of the year? Do you know, the thing is, I've spent this year reading not new books, but old books. That's OK. That I'd never read before. Do you know what I read? Gorky Park, because you recommended it. Isn't it great? It's really, really compelling. Yeah. I mean, you have to really concentrate. It's very dense. It's hard to follow, but it's brilliant.

24:42So I've read Gorky Park. I've read In Cold Blood, Truman Capote's book, which was terrific. I read The Spy Who Came In From the Cold. And I read Line of Beauty. And those are all absolute classics, which I had not read before. So it's been a year of the classics. I have to say I thought Line of Beauty was the Alan Hollinghouse book set in the kind of Thatcher era, but also with the kind of awful AIDS pandemic killing people across London at the time. I thought it's so beautifully written. Not an original observation since this book won the Booker Prize but I love that. And I thought In Cold Blood, I don't know how I'd never read that book.

25:26Dare I say it was recommended to me by another podcast. Bit of a shout out to Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook. I think it's okay to read books which are not published in 2025. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's Americana I read earlier in the year. It's utterly brilliant. And it's about black, African, Nigerian migrants to America and what it's like to be an immigrant settler into America, told through the prism of hairstyling. It's utterly brilliant. Curtis Sittenfeld, American Wife, one of my top books of the year. And also the one she wrote about imagining if Hillary Clinton had left Bill and then become a presidential candidate earlier.

26:15But my book of the year, Combe, Tobin, Long Island, published this year, 2025. This was the successor to Brooklyn. I read Brooklyn off your recommendation. Did you? Yes. And have you seen the film? No. Brooklyn is the only film I've ever watched twice back to back on the same flight. So moved. You did what? I watched the same film twice. I was so moved by it. Three and a half hours in on the way to America. Well, three hours in, whatever it is. Two and a half hours. I then started again and watched the whole thing twice. That is weird. I'm just saying. It's really weird. It's quite weird. I know.

26:45I turned off the Wi-Fi and I enjoyed it. You don't have to turn on Wi-Fi. You just go to another movie. That is. Thank you, Rachel, for your recommendation. recommendations i did start watching landman on earth you know landman this is the new series i think on paramount plus but i saw it free on an airplane and um it's all set in the kind of texas oil fields it's very very good and it's got um billy bob thornton as the kind of lead star it's really it's i guess it's a bit like it's a sort of new version or newish version of yellow stone for those who've watched it i'm going to give you given we've moved away from books a recommendation that i have been raving about to our kitchen cabinet members for the last three months it's on itvx it's in french subtitles in the british version it's called the line in the french version it's called a village francaise and it is seven series and it starts with the german occupation of france in 1939 40 and and it's a village which is just on the german side not on the Vichy side and it goes all the way through to um the liberation and then the aftermath it's brilliant because it's warts and all it's not a um populist or patriot or heroic version i've concluded having watched the whole thing over three months i now think it was actually recommended by robert harris it is now i think my best ever television box set it's even better than the Sopranos.

28:11It's called The Line on ITVX. You can watch the whole thing on ITVX. Thank you, Rachel, for your question. We'll be back after this.

28:26Welcome back. Our next question is from James. Hi Ed and George. At this festive time of year, my question is about political pubs. a little while ago you mentioned that the two chairman pub in london is a place the treasury go to mark the end of a budget and it made me wonder are there any other pubs that have political significance or indeed any pubs that have a particular political memory for you good or bad great show and a merry christmas and happy new year pubs what do you reckon i mean the red lion in um whitehall is probably the most famous of the political pubs isn't it well i think because of um the tony blair charlie wheelan incident incident the outrageous briefing by the brown team against the uh policy of the blair government isn't that what you're talking about no that is like a historically completely inaccurate description the briefing of the policy not to join the euro in the first parliament was done by alistair campbell to full webster not by i mean gordon brown or me and when i spoke to phil phil said to me don't worry we've already got the story alistair's called me and so when i sent him over the carefully crafted paragraph which was gordon's interview with him gordon was in scotland and phil was on a golf course and the interview was a paragraph written down it turned out alistair camel had got there already and then tony blair at seven in the evening finds out this is what it is can't get hold of alistair can't get hold of gordon can't get hold of me um hits the downing street switchboard they end up ringing charlie wheelan in the red lion who was not involved in the briefing of this story and then tony says what's going on with the um the euro charlie and charlie says we're not joining this parliament and tony blair says um is it too late to stop it And Charlie says, well, it's already the front page in the sun.

30:18I mean, and in the Times, it's done. But Charlie is purely the messenger in this case. Oh, he's the wronged party. He was the wronged party. That's how it all came out at the time. I remember that. That is the Red Lion story. Of course, what else could you say? Westminster pubs, strangers. That's inside the House of Commons, right? But don't you think the truth is, if you were a politician or a journalist trying to meet another journalist, you wouldn't do it in a Westminster pub because you'd assume there'd be other MPs or staffers or civil servants or, you know, diplomats paid to listen. You'd go off to some more dodgy pub in Waterloo or on the Strand to do your business.

30:54You wouldn't do it in a Westminster pub. What's the one at Story's Gate? That's a big political pub as well. Is that called the Westminster Arms, maybe? Westminster Arms is the one by the QE2 centre. Yeah, the Westminster Arms. And then two chairmen is the one behind that, near the spectator. They spill out onto the road. The two chairmen's really cute because it's sort of... You wouldn't get the Westminster Arms to have a discreet conversation, would you? I'm trying to think of other great... I mean, there are those... I tell you, how about this? Do you know what the Plough Inn is? Well, there's one in Norma's on the walls.

31:20Apart from that one. Which I used to go to quite often. Why is the Plough Inn a political pub? The Plough Inn, I'm not... It's the one that David Cameron took President Xi to. And then mistakenly left his daughter. Not on the same visit, I think. go the the the the political bar i'm going to highlight is the um the sports bar in leicester square on the the first of may 2002 norwich were playing wolves in the second leg of the championship playoff who can forget lost one nil but that was enough to see them go 3-3-2 into the playoff final obviously i was the treasurer of canaries at westminster the joint chairs were were um charles clark and ian gibson and the secretary was phil webster and I was the only one who could get a ticket and get there.

32:05So I went up to Molyneux on my own to watch this game and Charles, Ian and Phil all went to the sports bar in Leicester Square and I then rang through the score at 10 minute intervals all the way through to full time. George has dried up, which is unusual for him. Have some more champagne. Our final question is for Michelle. Hey Ed and George, it's Michelle here. I'm a long-term avid listener of the podcast, so much so that Spotify tells me that I'm in your top 8 % of listeners. Would you believe it? With Christmas around the corner and me knowing that Ed is a very keen cook, I was wondering if you could share your top tip for Christmas cooking.

32:42I think roast potatoes are my absolute favourite part of roast dinner, probably with gravy following a close second. So any particular tips on those two things, I'd be really interested to hear. Thanks very much. So George, what are your top tips on roast potatoes? You're only being polite because you can't wait for the next 15 minutes telling us all about your top tips. That was a bit snarky. Do you do the cooking at home? I do, yes. You do not. I do. What are you cooking for Christmas Day? Well, it's a bit complicated this year because I'm actually having Christmas lunch with my mother, so she'll be doing the cooking.

33:17But last year I did all the Christmas cooking, including for my parents and brothers and things. First of all, I wouldn't do this for a large number of people, but it's quite fun doing a goose. I think a goose is a kind of, you know, if you've got a lot of people, I think you've got to do turkeys because there's much more meat. But I think a good old Christmas goose, I always think when I have it, I always feel quite sort of Dickensian, like Victorian Christmas. And there are lots of interesting recipes. There's a really good Nigella Lawson goose recipe. The only other kind of two tips I would give are, I think Brussels sprouts have got a bit of a bad reputation because they've been boiled to death over decades.

33:57and I think you there are lots now of recipes you can just look up online for definitely essentially sort of frying them or roasting them or an air fryer actually baked good right 12 minutes olive oil salt pepper okay that's good I've never actually used an air fryer I'm not even sure what it is it's sort of like a deep fat fryer without fat no it's a convection oven I mean if you want my top tips I don't I haven't finished are you still going I think so you're halfway through your 15 minutes no no there's a what point are we going to get a tip though I had a really good broccoli and cauliflower cheese combo.

34:29For Christmas dinner? That's a good term. That's a bit odd. Yeah, my tip, well, my basic tip, I guess, is get somebody else to cook it. Yeah, when I first did the whole Christmas meal, you know, it is so much to do, so many different things. You don't really, when the guests are arriving and if you're not on top of it, you don't actually get to sort of talk to them very much. So you do somehow need to get it all done in advance. Well, if you want to get my Christmas tips. Unfortunately, we're out of time. You can read. Listen, we will see you in the new year. You can read the chapter called Christmas Cooking in my book, Appetite, a memoir in recipes of family and food, which has my Christmas recipes in it.

35:09And all, I mean, I say they're my recipes. They're obviously derivative. Is that a remainder now? No, it's still, if you go on Amazon, you can get it delivered tomorrow. It's a very, very good Christmas present. It has good recipes. And I do a goose. This year, I'm actually doing goose and turkey. I'll do a turkey crown and I'll do a goose. But what I will do is I will do the goose in a barbecue. So outside in a green egg and cook it for about four hours because it's cooked slowly. How do you keep the temperature? Because it's quite complicated to control the temperature in the egg, right? If you know what you're doing, it's fine.

35:42So you have to learn to use the egg. But it's fine. Do you do it direct on the thing or do you have one of those metal shields? Use the egg. It's called the egg setter. So you have like a piece of, it's actually kind of, I'm not sure what you'd call it. It's like plaster, which goes between the fire. Exactly. And so I'll do a goose. I do the goose with prunes and arminiac and a turkey. I would say on roast potatoes, just to them right, par ball the potatoes, 10 minutes, and then cook them longer and it'll work. Goose fat? I don't really do goose fat. I mean, olive oil. But I mean, you can do goose fat.

36:18It's quite nice. It can be a bit greasy. What I will do this year for Christmas dinner, though, I've got a Christmas pudding I made a couple of weeks ago. That's all ready to go. I'm doing goose and turkey for the main course. I'll do some kind of cold first course. Maybe you should just come around and cook mine, yeah. But then the second course, this is my Christmas tip. The recipe, which sounds the fanciest, and if you do it for my recipe, it works every time. Souffles. Souffles. I remember you telling me this. I remember you telling us all about a year ago. I'm going to do a, I think last year I did a smoked haddock souffle.

36:48Right. And the key thing with that is when you make the white sauce becomes a cheese sauce. You poach the haddock in the milk and use the haddocky milk for the underlying sauce. And then you put some smoked haddock flaked with cream at the bottom of the ramekin and then put the souffle onto it. Absolutely gorgeous. But I think I've got my brother and sister coming around and my brother's a vegetarian. So it will actually be cheese and thyme. But souffle is the... What do you do? What's he going to get for the turkey crown and the goose? Tofurky. So you're doing turkey, crown, goose and... Tofurky.

37:17You've got to deliver, haven't you? The most I've ever done for Christmas Day is 24. dishes or people people not dishes there was not there was quite a lot of dishes but you know you're not a little bit irritated by the vegetarian oh no i've got to do the tofu thing um you have to work your way around them but i mean they're invited they're not overly can't he have all the other things so cheese and thyme souffle and if you do like an asparagus starter and the christmas pudding is made with a um a uh vegetarian um you know, fat so that, you know, it's not... Well, at least that's what you tell him.

37:50It's not beefsuit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry. No beefsuit in this. Michelle, thank you for inspiring us. And great to see you in our top 8%. I actually know Michelle. She is a King's lecturer and she is expecting her first little boy. I think it's a little boy. Her first baby on Christmas Day. So... Really? Good luck with that. Yeah. She's at 38 weeks and off she goes. So good luck, Michelle. It's going to be our own little messiah. That is... Thank you for all of your Christmassy theme questions, and especially to Claudia and Rob for our brilliant questions they sent to us. Yeah, we're going to be back with the conversation I've had with Bridget Philipson, you know, the education secretary contender for the deputy leadership, potentially future leader of the Labour Party.

38:35You are not going to want to miss that conversation. And then we've got our what if EMQs. We did one of those last summer. We've got another one coming up to start the New Year's. Yeah, this is our final EMQs of this year, 2025. What an amazing year it's been. Another rollercoaster in politics. Lots of great questions. Please do start sending in your questions for 2026 so we can get off to the new year with a bang. Look, they've got to be the funny ones, the historical ones, how Parliament works, what's going on in politics, questions from abroad. We actually were missing a bit. People used to tell us where they listened to the podcast and the questions.

39:12Do you remember we had people like rowing across bays in Australia and doing all sorts of things like that? Have you also noticed nobody's now saying they like the podcast anymore? It's only because you said they didn't have to. I know, but it obviously shows they didn't like it. They just thought they had to say it. We're not putting you in charge of party discipline, I can tell you. You're not going to be my chief whip. Well, look, do send us your questions and this week, because New Year's coming and we know people like to get into the New Year's spirit, we're going to come out a day early.

39:39So our podcast It's going to be out on Wednesday this week with your Bridget Phillips interview. And then what if to see in the new year? And a very happy new year, George. A happy new year to you. And a happy Christmas.

39:58Thanks for listening to Political Currency. This has been a Persephoneca production.