EMQs: From Athelstan to Dollywood

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2:23Ed Balls: So hello and welcome to EMQ's Ex-Minister's Questions. We have moved rooms. We are no longer in the presence of the Bayer Tapestry, but we are still in the British Museum. In fact, we've come to the rather plush suite of rooms, which is where the chair of the British Museum resides.

2:41George Osborne: Don't you think this is a bit reminiscent of a kind of government building, like the Cabinet Office? It's a very grand building. And then it's just a little bit sort of down at heel inside. Sort of slightly old furniture. And I mean, it's lovely, but it's...

2:56Ed Balls: It's how the Treasury was when we arrived at the Treasury before they refurbished it. It's a 19th century building. But this is a nice room. Very nice, yeah. This is a waiting room, by the way. It's not that grand. Oh, I see. I thought this was your room.

3:08George Osborne: No, no, I don't have a room. Do you have a suite of rooms? I do not have an office. If you want to, could you live at the British Museum? Well, the director of the museum used to have a house here, But Neil McGregor decided that wouldn't be the case anymore. Well, in that case, why doesn't the chair take over? Unfortunately, it's part of the big building works at the moment, the old house.

3:23Ed Balls: I hope people enjoyed our biotapestry episode. It was so exciting going in there. And it was actually, it's interesting. Often with cultural things, they are not as good as you expect.

3:33George Osborne: Yeah.

3:33Ed Balls: But actually, it was better seeing it than I was expecting because it's so, you're so close. And it's so tapestry-like. I mean, you really feel that it's almost like you can touch it.

3:45George Osborne: Yeah. No, I wanted your ration because I've now been kind of exposed to it quite a bit. I mean, and so I, but the initial time I walked in there and saw it, I was like, wow.

3:53Ed Balls: Exactly.

3:54George Osborne: There's a big wow.

3:55Ed Balls: And anybody who's seen it in Normandy, it is so much better.

3:58George Osborne: Yes, it is.

3:58Ed Balls: Don't tell Emmanuel. They won't tell the French. No, no, don't tell them.

4:01George Osborne: I wonder, but they're going to re-display it. They're not, you know, when it goes back to Bayou, it'll be done in a different way. And maybe.

4:08Ed Balls: Well, they could, they could use British technology and.

4:10George Osborne: I think they'll probably lay it flat again. Yeah. Because I don't think anyone will want to hang it again. And the laying flat makes people, I think, that makes much of a difference. But it means you can actually kind of lean over and really get closer. I love meeting Michael, the curator, in his Norwich shirt. I know he turns up. This is a guy. He's like a creator of the British Museum. And I imagine people have in their head what that sort of person might be like. You know, and he was crucial yesterday in showing the king and the president, prime minister around in a suit and tie. And then I turn up this morning.

4:40George Osborne: There's a kind of guy in a football strip. it's it's Michael um you've done it for you Ed you haven't done it for me because yeah you know

4:50Ed Balls: you obviously were chairman of Norwich I was no it was it was it was great to meet him and um

4:55George Osborne: did you have a good summer I had a very good summer actually very nice and uh but I didn't grow a beard like you I did grow half a beard but then I shaved it off I know I made I made a terrible mistake it's a sort of Gary Lineker beard isn't it I don't know what it was it looks a bit like Gary Lineker.

5:11Ed Balls: I cannot... I mean, I wouldn't say they're the similarities then because that'd be not, you know. I cannot tell you what my two daughters say about it other than the fact that what they accused me of would be something for which you'd get locked up. I mean, it has a sort of... It's unsavoury. The thing was, I grew it on holiday when we were travelling just to wind up the family because it really, really winds them up. And then I made this mistake and I posted a picture and then the editor of the Good Morning Britain said, you should... don't shave off until you come on. Then Susanna Reid says, you've got to keep it.

5:43Ed Balls: And they did a poll, two to one, the viewers said to keep it. You're very poll-driven. We are up for very poll-driven. Your shaving habits. I have to say, I don't really think that I'm going to take a lecture from you about being poll-driven. But we are up for an award at the NTAs, the National Television Awards, next Tuesday. And I have, in the daytime category, and you can still vote. The voting is open until next Tuesday.

6:04George Osborne: Should we put the link in the show notes?

6:06Ed Balls: Yes, a good idea. And so let's definitely do that. And Susanna said, would you keep it until the NTAs? And so the problem is, so the program is saying keep it.

6:16George Osborne: So hold on, TV wife says keep it and real wife says don't.

6:19Ed Balls: Totally against it. She absolutely hates it. I am on, what can I say? I am on the horns of a dilemma. Yeah. You've got to listen to the TV wife, haven't you? It's quite, I'm afraid in the end, the viewers are important. It's quite uncomfortable. Yeah. But there we are.

6:35George Osborne: There we are.

6:35Ed Balls: We should get on with it. Our first question.

6:37George Osborne: Yes, talking about Gary Lineker. of course is the founder of Goalhanger, the group that owns the Rest Is podcast. And our first question comes from the presenter of my favourite Rest Is podcast, which is The Rest Is History.

6:53Ed Balls: I thought you said your favourite podcast there for a moment. I'm worried. Your favourite Rest Is podcast.

6:57George Osborne: Yes. And that is The Rest Is History, which I really enjoy. And we have a question here from Tom Holland.

7:05Ed Balls: Hi, it's Tom Holland here with a question for you both. 1066 is obviously a massively important date, huge cause for celebration at the British Museum. That will be running on till next year. Just wondering about another crucial date in Anglo-Saxon history, which is the 12th of July 927. And so the anniversary of that is coming up next year. And it's an important date because it's the day on which Athelstan, the first king of the United Kingdom of England, summoned kings, princelings, lords from across the whole of Britain and got them to accept his overlordship. And to the extent that the Kingdom of England has a birthday, that is the birthday.

7:55Ed Balls: do you think that that should be commemorated as well and if so how should it be commemorated bearing in mind we don't actually have much time to prepare England for her birthday so this is a very interesting question and you know I am I'm going to go into this first of all in a very rest is history kind of way because you may not know this George but for my A-levels I did English literature and economics and medieval history. I actually studied English and European history from like 500 to 1400. And there is a really interesting debate in medieval English history about who is the first king of the English.

8:37Ed Balls: And there's no doubt that Athelstan, because of the defeat of the Vikings up in York, and they take Northumberland, he's the first person who sort of unites the territories. But the first person who actually really establishes a, you know, a collective cross area and an Anglo-Saxon identity is actually Athelstan's grandfather, Alfred. Alfred the Great. Alfred the Great. But the other thing about Alfred was that he saw being the monarch, the king, not just about winning battles and being powerful, but also in sort of culture and a sense of identity and finding a way in which you could have other ways.

9:21Ed Balls: In a way, the British Museum celebrates different ways in which culture unites nations. And so I wrote essays when I was 17, quite a long time ago, 40 years ago, about who was the first king of the English. And the argument was, it was actually Alfred. Even though he was the king of Wessex.

9:44George Osborne: Yes. So he's only one, the West Country, the only one part of...

9:47Ed Balls: But essentially through Mersew as well, he was like the effective leader of the anti-Anglo-Saxon, the anti-Viking forces. His purview was wide. It didn't go up to Northumberland, which Athelstan did. He wasn't only a regional ruler. He actually had a sort of a bigger collective footprint, but also that cultural point about him wanting to find a way in which you could establish an identity of the Anglo-Saxons or the English. He was the first person who did that. So I'd love to know what Tom thinks, but I think there is an... Look, I'm totally in favour of a celebration. What would it be? The 1100th.

10:31Ed Balls: 1100th of the first English king. but the first guy who established the idea of there being an English identity to be the king of arguably is Alfred, not Athelstan

10:42George Osborne: Yeah, I mean Tom is great, he's also on the board of the British Museum as a trustee Yes, yes and he gave the most brilliant interview because lots of people apply and he gave the most brilliant interview only because he was clearly trying to board a plane but he was very keen to become a trustee and there was only one day we could do the interviews. Most people could do it in person. And he was doing it on his mobile phone, trying to conduct this flawless interview with this panel whilst also having to kind of check in and show his passport, find his seat on the aeroplane. I mean, he did the whole thing seamlessly.

11:20George Osborne: I mean, but on this, I think Tom is, this is a bit like Harold's last stand at Hastings. I don't think he's going to make Athelstan the national hero, I'm afraid. I mean, I think in the rest of his history, The super fans are called the Athelstans, aren't they? But it's a bit of a lost cause, this, Tom. Do you think so? I don't think you can make Athelstan the... I don't think Athelstan is known, really, as a figure. Yeah, but that's only because people have not yet heard our podcast.

11:50Ed Balls: Yeah, the rest of this history has failed. Political currency comes to the rescue. But if you take things into 2026 and you're saying it's about hope and it's about a vision for our future,

12:02George Osborne: Don't you think that... I don't think he's... Look, I'm not saying he's an unimportant historical figure. I'm just saying in our national story, King Alfred the Great is a much bigger figure. And I think the defeat of the Vikings is obviously a kind of key moment. But the ground had been laid by Fender. And then also... Well, I'm coming on to who I actually think is the... And also the burning of the cakes. I mean, you know, the hiding out in the marsh. I mean, that's part of our national story. And that's Alfred, not Atholson.

12:36Ed Balls: I love the fact you're backing political currency over the rest of his history in this conversation.

12:40George Osborne: So I did A-level history and I also did medieval history. Did you? But as well as a bit of contemporary, more recent history. But I think, and I know you're about to say, so just hear me out. King Arthur is the great king of England. Now, the key thing is he didn't exist. about to say. Right. This is like George Osborne being the best prime minister we had in the name. Yeah. Well, I'm happy to be compared to King Arthur. But, you know, where I have a house in Somerset, there's actually a place called Alfred's Tower, which is a great monument to Alfred. But there's also Camelot. There's North Cadbury Castle, which is supposed to be where Camelot was.

13:21George Osborne: And I remember writing an A-level essay about, and indeed I did it also at university. I did the same period. Did Arthur exist? and there are kind of where does the Arthurian legend come from was there ever a book who you know why is there a story of this person if they didn't exist did Camelot was there a thing called Camelot what about the knights of the rather all of that and you can find traces in things like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and okay even if it's a myth I mean you know this this summer everyone's been watching the movie the Odyssey and like did Odysseus exist but some ways it doesn't matter That's the foundational story of Greece, Homer.

14:03George Osborne: And Arthur is the foundational story of England. That's the sword in the stone, Camelot, the round table, Guinevere. All of that is the English foundational story.

14:16Ed Balls: Discuss. Very interesting. I mean, the other great early medieval king in terms of really delivering change was Henry, wasn't it? Henry II.

14:30George Osborne: Well, yeah, but now you're getting into the Normans, aren't we?

14:32Ed Balls: We are. But he's English by that point.

14:34George Osborne: Edward the Confessor, you can argue, is the other great kind of, you know.

14:37Ed Balls: In terms of the rule of law and the common law. Do you know what? Political currency, historical currency. I think this rest is, guys, they're getting too clear a run. Why do you want to watch the rest is history or listen to the rest is history when you could listen to historical currency? Maybe we should do an offshoot inside the rooms popular. Maybe, look, you've got lots to say about Arthur. I can chat about Alfred. We could discuss, was the reign of King Stephen the only true period of anarchy in British history? Discuss.

15:07George Osborne: Well, there was a civil war then, wasn't there? But the rest is history arguably made a mistake when they branched into other topics. Because I think there are some other rest is podcasts, apparently. But we do politics best. And I'm not sure we should have a historical currency.

15:23Ed Balls: So we should respect rest is history. They're the best historical podcast.

15:26George Osborne: and we know the best for the podcasters.

15:28Ed Balls: Thank you, Tom, for your excellent question. And we'd love to get marks out of 10 for historical answers. You know, is Alfred really the first king of the English? And did Arthur exist? If you could let us know, maybe, I mean, maybe inside the room.

15:45George Osborne: You could also plug us on your podcast because you've got quite a few listeners.

15:48Ed Balls: That is true. Our next question is from Kirsty. Hi, Ed and George. It's Kirsty here. I love the podcast. Thanks for letting me submit my EMQ. My question's informed by 26 years of working in education across some diverse settings, including large comprehensives and a residential special school for pupils with severe learning difficulties. Since moving to the independent sector in 2022, I'm now a headteacher. A key factor in my departure from state education was the continual shift in political direction. Frequent changes in government meant policies were replaced before they had time to embed, and I felt that that prevented sustained improvements.

16:30My question is, should education be governed by a permanent cross-party coalition advised by education sector experts? What potential benefits or challenges might such an arrangement create?

16:44George Osborne: You were the Education Secretary, so it would be interesting to get your thoughts on this. I would say there has been quite a lot of continuity in education policy, even if that's not been Kirstie's direct experience. If you think of the sort of scheme of things, there's been over my lifetime quite a lot of shared views across the parties. I mean, first of all, there was more controversial now than it was at the time. There was actually a big political consensus between the Conservatives and the Labour Party in the 1970s about dismantling the grammar school secretary, modern school system and replacing those with comprehensives.

17:22George Osborne: And then essentially, I'd say the exam reforms that created GCSEs have endured and A-levels, although we've discussed whether that was a mistake.

17:30Ed Balls: And then independent inspection and testing and the national curriculum. They were controversial when they introduced, but actually they became cross-party. And then the whole academy movement arguably had its origins in John Major's city technology colleges.

17:46George Osborne: And then obviously with Andrew Adonis and Tony Blair, the academies, particularly in East London, and then big academy program under Michael Gove and David Cameron's government. So there's been quite a lot of continuity. And I would say one of the interesting things in politics at the moment is how, I'm not saying it's a good thing, is how education is just sort of completely dropped off the radar as a political topic. If you think of Andy Burnham's priorities, we talk about this in the main podcast, you know, we talk about social housing and we were talking about social care and skills. But schools just doesn't feature any more as a kind of big political battleground.

18:27Now, maybe there's a bad thing and maybe there's a result, you know, if you're not constantly examining how you can make things better, things drift and get worse. but um i don't know what you think but that's because you know but i'm very conscious that's

18:41George Osborne: not been kirsty's lived experience where there's just she says frequent changes in policies well

18:48Ed Balls: there is always a tension in politics between on the one hand any secretary of state's desire to make their mark and have an impact um but also the reality the lasting change um has to be carried on by your successors. And so every time there's like a big disruptive change, it actually makes it harder to secure kind of long-term lasting reform. But you can always see why some Secretary of State want that. My big frustration when I handed over to Michael Gove, and let's be honest, Michael was a Secretary of State who wanted to make a mark. And he at the time had political reasons to want to do so.

19:26Ed Balls: We've discussed in the past how he said, in retrospect, moving away from the focus on early years and children, which was very much central to the Department for Children, Schools and Families, was a mistake. He, at the time, scrapped the Rose review of the primary curriculum, which we'd done a careful review, was very popular in the primary school world. But then other things which he introduced, like the English baccalaureate, has now gone into broadening of the curriculum again. I guess the answer is, the things which we highlighted as having lasting are the ones which became consensual. There will always be times when secular stakes need to change things because circumstances have changed or there's a different political view.

20:15Ed Balls: But I actually think the challenge from Kirsty, which is, if you can, try to avoid short-termist disruptive churn is a good thing. And if you're Lucy Powell at the moment, the government's about to produce a 10-year plan. Maybe Lucy Powell, the new education secretary, should be picking some areas where she says, in an explicitly cross-party way, I'm going to seek to build a consensus. This might be true about curriculum reform, qualifications reform for 16 to 18-year-olds, where you say, we'll involve the opposition parties, we will seek to put in place a reform, which we then have some confidence will give Kirsty and other headteachers 10 years of stability with an expectation that it will then be reviewed at the end of that.

21:06Ed Balls: And if it hasn't worked, you can always change. I mean, surely isn't one of the biggest questions,

21:11George Osborne: how is the education system, not just here, but everywhere else in the world, going to deal with AI? Partly like the opportunity the AI has to help learning in the classroom, but also, you know, essentially course-based work now. And we moved away from like your whole future, depending on how you did in a two-hour exam in a sports hall somewhere, to assess over projects and courses. And the trouble is now with AI, it's extremely hard to stop ChatGPG writing it. Well, I think you've just... That's the sort of thing you could set up a kind of commission to try and get some kind of consensus on.

21:47Ed Balls: I think you've just delivered a brilliant segue into our third question because Rishi Sunak was both the prime minister who put AI policy centre stage. And at the very end of his premiership, he also said he wanted to look at curriculum reform and qualification reform for 16 to 18 year olds, which is very consistent with what Andy Burnham has now said. And our next question is going to ask about the Sunak legacy. And maybe we could come back to AI.

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24:14George Osborne: so welcome back well here's a question from the the man who has done more to study british prime ministers than anyone else and has done i think when he set out to chronicle the premierships of britain recent premierships he did not anticipate that there were going to be six of them and that is anthony selden who with his collaborator tom edgerton i bet he's

24:36Ed Balls: not complaining i mean think of all those books and presumably there's a starmer one coming now

24:40George Osborne: right yes definitely yeah he's just finished he's just published uh his book on rishi sunak's premiership i've not read it yet have you i've read the extracts in the newspaper uh and this is his question this is anthony selden author with tom edgerton of sunak at 10 the last Tory Prime Minister question mark and our question to you is will Rishi Sunak's reputation as a Prime Minister recover as John Major's has done over time?

25:24Ed Balls: So let's start with John Major. There is no doubt that John Major's place in history rises over time. And I think that's actually, there's two different elements to it.

25:36George Osborne: There's

25:36Ed Balls: whether or not history judges differently your achievements in office. And there's secondly, the contribution you then make as a political figure after you start being prime minister. And John Major has, I think, been careful and judicious, but influential in the way in which he's commentated, particularly around Brexit since he was prime minister. But actually, there's been a reappraisal of his time as Prime Minister because, you know, it was a very difficult circumstance, the end of a government, lots of kind of huge issues to deal with, like the ERM crisis. And, you know, I'm not sure Cone's hotline or back to basics go down as great moments in British political history.

26:16Ed Balls: But actually, John Major holding the government together, being influential in the negotiation of the Maastricht Treaty, securing the opt out on the euro for Britain, with Norman Lamont and then Ken Clarke repairing the fiscal damage after the ERM crisis. I think all those things...

26:35George Osborne: And the early days of inflation targeting. All of those reforms. I think all of that have meant that his standing and his stock have risen

26:43Ed Balls: since he stopped being Prime Minister. And the question is, will the same thing happen with Rishi Sunak?

26:48George Osborne: Well, let's start with John Major. I agree with what you say. I mean, I think the real significance of the major premiership is that it kind of seals the Thatcher revolution. I think if Labour had won the 92 general election, which they were expected to do, and on the night were projected to do, then quite a lot of the Thatcher revolution would have been undone. Because the party was changing under Neil Kinnock, Labour, but it had certainly not embraced or learned to live with things like the trade union reforms and so on. Whereas by 97, you know Labour's gone the full journey of saying we're not going to unpick the 1980s I mean of course interestingly Andy Burnham's talking about it now but you know John Major achieves that and then I think it's in terms of his reputation and he wins that he's still got the highest number of people who have voted for him the highest number of people who ever voted for a British Prime Minister in the general election is John Major in 1992 more so than Tony Blair in his wins but But I think what Anthony's alluding to really is sort of John Major the person rather than the major premiership.

27:51George Osborne: Because I'm not sure the major premiership is going to be one of the great studied premierships in 50 years time. I mean, the Thatcher premiership will be, I suspect the Blair premiership will be still, like the Clement Annerley premiership and so on.

28:04Ed Balls: But John Major's reputation... See, Gordon Brown's reputation for handling the financial crisis rose. after he stopped being Prime Minister. But that was about that period, 2007-8. I think the argument I'm making, I agree with what you think about John Major and his subsequent contribution. But I actually think that people think in retrospect... He's a decent bloke, right? And actually pulled off some difficult things better than expected. No, and also the key thing was when Tony Blair

28:35George Osborne: secured the Northern Ireland Peace Treaty, one of his greatest achievements, he was very generous in saying it was John Majorhood kind of started all that. And the way John has kind of conducted himself ever since, as you say. Now, fundamentally for Rishi Sunak, the challenge is he was only prime minister for two years, not seven, and didn't win the general election that John Major won in 92. So he's not, you know, he doesn't, he's not in the kind of category of long-serving prime ministers.

29:01Ed Balls: He also said, judge me on the cost of living, small boats, inflation, growth, and the NHS. And I'm afraid all the things he asked to judge him on didn't go well. so it's quite hard I mean is he going to be remembered for the smoking ban I think he'll be remembered for two things so first you know and it's not an insignificant achievement he is

29:22George Osborne: Britain's first prime minister from an ethnic minority and that is you know quite a thing and certainly if you travel around the world I've you know I've actually been on a plane with him to India and he gets mobbed in India because he was the Indian origin British prime minister And it says a lot about how our country has changed, that that almost was sort of, I wouldn't say it was uncommented on, a lot of people commented on it, but it was sort of taken in our stride. And so there was that. But I think the other thing, we talked about it right at the beginning of all this discussion, AI. You know, he saw the significance of AI.

30:01George Osborne: He convened a conference, a global conference on the regulation of AI at Bletchley Park that endures to this day. There is an annual global conference on AI regulation was in India last year. It's going to be in Switzerland next year. For, you know, Prime Minister of Britain to have established a new global architecture for discussing a new technology, even if it's yet to produce kind of solid results, is a really large, you could look back on it and say, if, you know, if you believe that AI is going to be as half as revolutionary as, you know, true believers think, You could say, well, you know, that guy did actually set up the basis upon which, you know, he called the Bretton Woods conference, even if he wasn't there for the outcome.

30:48George Osborne: So I think that will be his other kind of big achievement.

30:53Ed Balls: But the thing is, we know with Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, John Major, all those past leaders, their reputation was also forged by their activity after they stopped being prime minister. I think there is an opportunity for Andy Burnham here, who says he wants to do things differently politically. It could be about the regulation of AI, but it could also be, as I was saying a moment ago, about how education changes because of technology, but also that 16 to 18 education challenge, having a unifying, broader qualification, which Rishi Sunak also championed. Why doesn't Andy Burnham ask Rishi Sunak to come back and do the work on that for the nation?

31:36Ed Balls: And I think if I was Rishi Sunak, I would say yes to that, because that's consistent with the role he plays around the world. For Andy Burnham, it would be a different way of doing politics. And that is the best way to secure the Sunak legacy. As you said, he wasn't prime minister for long enough. but given he's set those directions why doesn't Andy Burnham get Rishi Sunak to come along and do

32:00George Osborne: phase two of the work he does have to deliver a bit Andy Burnham's promise to do politics differently which he hasn't you know he talks about it but like okay Gordon Brown tried it

32:10Ed Balls: with Digby Jones and Alan Sugar which you know with mixed success but you're a big fan of Digby I love Digby Lord Digby Jones but I think Rishi Sunak would be um what can I just say a safer pair of fans. By the way, just in passing, I meant to ask you this in our main episode. We were talking about John Healy and the challenges he's facing. Lord Jim O 'Neill, who was a minister with you in the Conservative government, he's being extremely unhelpful to John Healy. That interview in The Times last weekend where he was sort of...

32:43George Osborne: Don't put up capital against us.

32:45Ed Balls: But also saying, you know, I wouldn't take the whip and, you know, they're not listening to me. And they've clearly offered him lots of different jobs. What's going on with Jim O 'Neill? Why is he being so unhelpful to Andy Burnham John Healy?

32:56George Osborne: Well, I know Jim really well. And he was a treasury minister for me. But he is absolutely his own man. And I think he's not a party. But I mean, that's why I got him to come and work for a conservative-led government. And he's a kind of ideas-driven person. He says what he thinks. He's passionate. You know, he's a big fan of what Andy Burnham's trying to do with Northern devolution. But he's also an entrepreneur and a venture capitalist. and he, the thing is, you know, he says what he thinks. And I kind of knew that. I knew that's what I was buying when I got him as a Treasury Minister. I think he was quite careful about saying

33:33Ed Balls: what he thought at the time. Maybe just agreed with the government. I think watch this space. I think it's quite interesting to see how that works.

33:42George Osborne: I've been having a good text exchange with him about triple lock pensions because he heard our answer about the triple lock. What did he think? He wanted to understand why, I thought it was not the kind of sort of thing that saves all the money. Because as we just, we won't reheat the conversation here. But the key thing is, are you really going to not uprate pensions with earnings or inflation?

34:07Ed Balls: Do you know what we should do? We should do an inside the room on the Northern Powerhouse, including Lord Jim O 'Neill, and draw from that lessons for what has to be done by Andy Burnham and his team for the economic growth in the years to come. That would be very interesting. and we can ask Jim how he thinks it's going in the treasury. Shall we turn to another question?

34:28George Osborne: Yeah, our next question is from Laura. Dear Ed and George, my name is Laura and about a year ago, you gave me some very useful advice on this podcast about choosing between HSPS or Chinese for my undergraduate degree. And so I'll soon be packing my bags to store at Cambridge and it's just Chinese after all. I wanted to follow up with two questions. if you had a chance to repeat your undergraduate experience is there anything you would do differently and why and second for someone coming from abroad to study in the uk as i am what books would you recommend to better understand british foreign policy and its historical development

35:08Ed Balls: thank you again so i remember this question from laura and actually i remember her my answer because i said to her you've got to do the thing which you will feel passionate about and really enjoy. But I think I also said, don't think if you go to study Chinese, that means you're not going to study politics and history, because actually that will be integral to the study of Chinese. And it sounds like she's decided to go and study Chinese, but we're really glad she's still listening to our podcast. And if you want history and politics, well, there's been quite a lot of that in China.

35:38George Osborne: Yes, I'm thrilled she's picked Chinese. And my daughter studied Chinese at university, and she faced a similar choice. And she, I think, loved doing a degree in Chinese. But let's get to Laura's new question. So what would you do differently if you were an undergrad, if you were to repeat your undergrad experience? And then she's also got this question, what's the best book on UK foreign policy?

36:04Ed Balls: Well, so what would you, I mean, presumably you would say, don't stay out too late in white tie, standing on tables drinking Bollinger.

36:12George Osborne: Well, it wasn't white tie, a slightly different outfit. I'll tell you what, you know what, I loved my university years and I felt I kind of made a lot of it because I was also editor of the university magazine and stuff like that.

36:25Ed Balls: But... Those are the things you value, don't you? Playing in a team sport, editing a magazine.

36:29George Osborne: Yeah, I regret not doing any sport much, any sport at all at university.

36:33Ed Balls: Was there a sport which...

36:35George Osborne: I could have done rowing maybe or something. Which might have wanted you. No, probably not. First of all, this is going to sound like a stupid thing to say, but I just didn't go to many lectures and I now go, why didn't I go to more lectures? but also there were a couple of key moments did you manage your time well over the three years i worked really hard in my third year but my second year i didn't do enough work and i think

36:56Ed Balls: when you go into university thinking to yourself in the end if you wake up late with a hangover too often you're not really making the most of it and actually the academic stuff in retrospect was more important than you realized at the time but if you don't throw yourself into that you

37:09George Osborne: slightly regret it if you're waking up at lunchtime every day it's not brilliant um i think um which you can't do if you're studying Chinese, by the way, because they've got the language classes in the morning. You know, there are two things I remember. I just look back and I go, what was I thinking? First of all, Ronald Reagan came to speak at Oxford University while I was there. And I was like, I can't be bothered to go to that. I was like, what an idiot. And then second, someone said, oh, Frank Sinatra's performing. Do you want to go? And I was like, no, I don't want to go and see that. It's like, what?

37:42George Osborne: I got a chance going here like Frank Sinatra saying.

37:46Ed Balls: And if your friends say, no, I can't be bothered. You have to have the confidence to say, you're idiots, I'm going anyway. Yeah. And it's very easy when you are an undergraduate to be taken up by the crowd. Too cool for school. Yeah, and that's really annoying. Those are the...

37:59George Osborne: Which is, I think,

38:00Ed Balls: quite a big problem for both of us, being too cool.

38:02George Osborne: Yeah.

38:03Ed Balls: Right.

38:04George Osborne: Thank you.

38:06Ed Balls: Sorry, the book on UK foreign policy. Well, I've got a recommendation. Oh, go on. But before I do, I think it's not only about books it's also about podcasts and maybe you should listen to The Rest is History which is an excellent podcast what's the other one? what's the Al Murray Second World War podcast?

38:22George Osborne: we have ways of making you we have ways ways of making you talk

38:26Ed Balls: I think if I was an undergraduate I would be listening to some podcasts as well as reading books but my book recommendation I actually bought this in the summer it's just out it's written by a King's College London academic and I've read the first third of it on holiday It's by Jonathan Fennell. It's called CLAPS, A Global History of the Second World War, 1931 to 1941. And it starts in the 30s and it starts in what's happening in China and Japan and then what's happening in Germany. And it traces all of the origins.

38:56George Osborne: You just said 1931 to 1941. Yes, so it starts - I checked the Second World War ended in 1945.

39:02Ed Balls: This is the first volume and the second one to come. So he's doing the 10 years before.

39:05George Osborne: You're going to recommend a book of which you've read a third of the first volume.

39:09Ed Balls: It's quite, look, it's a very, very...

39:10George Osborne: That sounds like my undergraduate days. It's a very, very long book.

39:15Ed Balls: And I was on holiday. That's exactly what I, that's how I got through my university years. Our kitchen cabinet members will discover when I do my cultural report on my summer reading that I read lots of novels. But I also, I was doing a bit of research for Laura and I think you should buy Jonathan Fennell Claps and have a read of it because I think it will help. There's no British history, which isn't in a global context. And actually Chinese history in the 20th century, becomes, you know, also a global story. And so I would say it's a good book.

39:43George Osborne: Right. Well, the first third of the first volume is. The book I'd recommend is actually, like you, it's not a book on British foreign policy. It is, and it's not a particularly original, but Henry Kissinger's book, Diplomacy, is the textbook on the history of diplomacy and foreign policy. And it's brilliant. I thought you were going to recommend a Churchill book. Roy Jenkins' book. Oh, well, my early... No, but by Churchill. My Early Life. Or the History of the English-speaking peoples.

40:18Ed Balls: Or Gathering Storm, was that?

40:19George Osborne: Well, that was the History of the Second World War. No, I think they're not really histories. They're not really stories of English foreign policy. I mean, he thinks the History of the English-speaking peoples is. I tell you what I was going to say. They're great. They're not really a story of UK foreign policy. But if you read the Ben McIntyre books on Kim Philby, who's the Soviet spy in MI6, I think it's called, what is it called? A traitor and a spy or something like that. And then the book on Oleg Gordievsky, who is the KGB guy who turns out to be a British spy. those two books tell you so much about mi6 the interaction with foreign policy the cold war they're two absolutely great books and um very good reads um because you write so well so

41:14Ed Balls: i would also recommend those good luck laura with your chinese studies at cambridge and to all of the um student um about to be student listeners who listen to political currency you'll be going off to university in the coming weeks. And we'll be back after the break with one more question.

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43:22George Osborne: Now, welcome back. Final question from someone we both know, you know particularly well, Ed, Peter Wanless.

43:29Ed Balls: Hello, Ed and George. It's Peter Wanless here, big fan of the podcast. I've been reflecting on the highlight of my time in the civil service, which was a meeting with Dolly Parton. Oh, and Ed was there too. So my question for you both is this. Which is more important when you make decisions, evidence or the charisma of the person advancing the argument? Well, thanks for your question, Peter. And look, I think I may have told this story before on the podcast, but you know what? I'm sorry, George. I'm just going to tell it again. But first of all, just tell us who Peter Oneness is

44:02George Osborne: before you tell us again your Dolly Parton.

44:04Ed Balls: Well, look, because he's in the story. Basically, I'm the Secretary of State of Education.

44:09George Osborne: Yeah.

44:10Ed Balls: And we get a request from the leader of Rotherham Clark.

44:13George Osborne: I asked you, tell us who Peter Wannes, the brilliant official is. And the politician in you is like, well, I was the second.

44:20Ed Balls: No, no, no, but I'm creating a bit of context here.

44:22George Osborne: And I get a letter from the leader of Rotherham Council

44:27Ed Balls: and a call from the MP for Rotherham, who is John Healy, who's now the chancellor, to say that they would like to bring Dolly Parton in to the department because she wants to ask for support. because Dolly Parton has her foundation, the Dollywood Foundation. They send all across America books to young mums, to single parents, to read to their children. And she's formed an alliance with Rotherham Council.

44:56George Osborne: How on earth has she formed an alliance with Rotherham Council?

44:58Ed Balls: Well, I think she decides that Rotherham is a place like where she grew up. And they would like government support to send books to children. And I then get advice from the senior civil servant at the department, Peter Wadless, who says this is a very bad idea. because what the Dollywood Foundation do is they send these books in the post, and often they just pile up and don't get opened or looked at. And we have a scheme called Bookstart, which hands books to parents, and that works much more effectively. And therefore, I shouldn't meet Dolly Parton. And I say, I'm really sorry, I'm going to meet Dolly Parton anyway.

45:30George Osborne: So in his question, he says the highlight of his time was the meeting, and you're saying he advised against it.

45:36Ed Balls: So the permanent secretary, David Bell, then says to me, you shouldn't meet Dolly Parton because she's just going to ask for money. And I say, I'm really sorry, David. I'm going to meet you anyway. Peter Wanless and David Bellman decide, even though they've advised against having the meeting, if I'm having the meeting, they are going to attend. And she comes in and she was utterly amazing. And in the story, she leans over halfway through. She's sitting next to me, puts her hand on my inner thigh and says, Ed, she says, I'm really sorry to hit upon you. And I say to her, Dolly, you can hit upon me anytime you like.

46:08Ed Balls: It was so amazing. But of course, she means in the American sense, which is ask for money. And we have a very nice kind of conversation.

46:15George Osborne: I could see that that might have led to some misunderstandings.

46:18Ed Balls: And we get to the end. Dolly says to me, could she have a photo? I go to stand next to her. The permanent secretary.

46:26George Osborne: I'm just thinking this through. So you're saying you're hitting on me and she says, I want money. And that could lead to some terrible misunderstandings.

46:34Ed Balls: This is the Dolly Parton story. And so David Bell and Peter Wadless, both of them rush around at high speed to join this photo. Although they are then photoshopped out because Dolly then sends me for my birthday a month later, a picture of me and her saying, dear Ed, happy birthday, Dolly Parne. So that was the story. And the thing which was utterly amazing about, I mean, can you think of a single figure in our lives who's had a more universally, globally universally and positive response of sadness but also love to her death and when she she came in she was simultaneously incredibly charismatic to Peter's question but also she knew all the facts and she was passionate about the detail my time as Secretary of State I met a few people like this I had a meeting with Goldie Horn who was lobbying me about him kind of a social and emotional approach to the cricket.

47:31George Osborne: Is there a thing about diminutive American blondes

47:34Ed Balls: and also the Fonz Henry Winkler about support for dyslexia. But even though those two were brilliant, Dolly Parton was in a league of her own. I met the Fonz as well. Both evidence and charisma. She had it absolutely all. And it was, you know, and I think that that was the thing about Dolly Parton. In the end, she was brilliant. And that's why there's been this response to her passing.

48:00George Osborne: So I think the answer to your question, Peter, is Ed saying, yes, charisma is really important, but you've also got to have the facts and the evidence.

48:08Ed Balls: That's right. Although Peter and I and David Bell decided for the purpose of the meeting to ignore the facts and just go for the charisma. I don't think we funded the experiment in Rotherham, which ended in 2015. Although the Dollywood Foundation has given out millions of books in Britain as well as around the world. Have you been to Dollywood? I've never been to Dollywood. I'd love to.

48:30George Osborne: And what's your favourite Dolly Parton song?

48:32Ed Balls: I think I Will Always Love You is my favourite. Actually, you'll be interested to know, Centristad are playing the York Rise Street Festival this weekend.

48:43George Osborne: That's another, presumably, that's a sort of enclave of North London labour intellectuals.

48:48Ed Balls: This was the one where Ed Miliband two years ago was singing Anik in the UK and Keir Shatthammer, Shut Him Up. And we normally start in our current set with The Clash into The Beatles, but we are actually starting with Jolene, Dolly Parton into London Calling into get by with a little help with your friends Peston's Jolene is utterly memorable

49:10George Osborne: I mean

49:11Ed Balls: utterly

49:12George Osborne: that doesn't mean it's necessarily good or bad it's just memorable you have to be there

49:17Ed Balls: you have to be there

49:19George Osborne: yeah I would say Jolene is the best isn't it

49:21Ed Balls: well I think I'll always love you as a great song 9 to 5 is a great cultural I'm just saying

49:27George Osborne: that I'll always love you I think from Whitney Houston's version is the one people remember. Even if it's her song.

49:34Ed Balls: I think they made more money out of that. And that's the biggest selling single female song ever. But the Dolly Parton version is definitely better. It's so emotional.

49:45George Osborne: We started with Atholstan and we ended with Dolly Parton.

49:49Ed Balls: Because you get it all in this podcast.

49:50George Osborne: And we took Igri Shisunak in the middle. That's the sweep of this podcast.

49:54Ed Balls: That is right. Thanks for your question, Peter. If you've got any questions which you fancy asking on the wide range of topics we covered in this podcast from medieval history to 20th century American country music and how you get young mums and dads to read to their children. Questions at politicalcurrency.co.uk or you can message us on our socials.

50:19George Osborne: Yeah. And do get creative. Send in a voice note. We're going to be back on Thursday with our main show.

50:23Ed Balls: See you then.

50:31George Osborne: Thanks for listening to Political Currency. This has been a Persephoneca production.

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