Sir Ed Davey on his plan to take the fight to the far right

0:14This is Political Currency with Ed Balls and George Osborne.

0:26Welcome to this very special episode of Political Currency. It's a special Christmas present for you, which we have put together. I say we, but in fact, as is often the case in households, one person has done most of the shopping and most of the wrapping and thinking about the present. And that is Ed. While their partner was traveling around the world at fancy dinners, doing speeches, kind of, you know, saying they were working hard and in fact just leaving the other to do all the work. Yes. You're the one who's been doing the work. Let's be clear. I've assumed been making those snarky points.

1:02Oh, sorry. We're not in the Christmas spirit. There's lovely points about our lovely partnership. What you've done is you have interviewed the person who you identified as politician of the year 2024. And it was Sir Edward Davey, former cabinet colleague of mine. Now, of course, leader of the Liberal Democrats, who did pretty well in the 2024 election. and gave the Liberal Democrats their highest number of seats, I guess, since, what, Lloyd George? Anyway, you had your pick of all the British politicians, because they all want to be on this show. Why did you pick, said? Well, look, it's partly that 2024 kind of award, or at least he got half the political currency of the year award, because you didn't agree, was because, you know, it wasn't just the Liberal Democrat result in the election, but the fact that Ed Davey so personally told his story, the story of his family his disabled son but also made a pitch for social care reform for care reform for family carers to be a centerpiece in politics it's not happened yet but i want to talk to him about his frustration about the continuing slow progress around that issue also the lib dems if this is going to be on the base of the current polls another election which doesn't give a decisive one-party victory we don't know but that might be how things turn out then ed davie's going to be a pivotal player come the next election and the days afterwards what does he think about the conservative party what does he think about reform what lessons does he draw from his time as a cabinet minister in the coalition with you between 2010 and 2015 what does he think of nick clegg's leadership is ed davie learning from nick clegg and in what way and there's also a personal thing we both went to the same school he's a year now we come down to it the real reason for the choice that's right he's a year older than me and he's 60 this christmas and he has been going on and on and on for years about the fact he lent me his a-level history notes medieval history which actually they weren't his notes they were the notes of his older brothers he keeps asking for them back.

3:13And so I spent the weekend searching for the notes and I sought it out. Well, I'm fascinated to see how you finally delivered on your promise to return his history notes, but actually much more interested, to be fair, about how he's going to approach politics over the next couple of years. And he could be the kingmaker talking about your history notes. Let's hear your interview with Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats.

3:39so this is a very special christmas edition of political currency uh special because i've got a special guest ed davy but also because very special christmas for ed it's his birthday on christmas day but turning 60 the big six zero i'm one year behind so i'm petering on the brink and And I mean, 60, it feels like a landmark. It does, but I don't feel 60, you know. I still feel like I'm almost at university with you. We were at school together and I still feel quite young, really. 60 seems an odd label to put on me. In your mind's eye, when you're sort of, you know, kind of meeting people and meeting constituents or kind of dignitaries or whatever, in your mind's eye, how old are you?

4:23It's a good question. I like to think I'm in my 40s, but now look in the mirror and I know I'm not. I think I've always felt in my mind's eye I was even a bit younger than that, like kind of, you know, 30s and, you know, kind of still the young guy, but 60. We kid ourselves, don't we? Oh, my goodness. When you look back on 60 years, I mean, obviously, as Liberal Democrat Party leader, the last election, kind of big result for you, big gain in seats. And also then the accolade of half of political currencies, a politician of the year. You did. Thank you very much for that. When you look upon your personal life, though, what's the biggest achievement of those 60 years?

5:01Well, on personal life, as you know, I've written a book, Why I Care, and your family and how that develops is the thing you talk about and think about the whole time. I'm lucky to have an amazing wife, Emily, and two kids. And as you know, my son's quite disabled, and that's been challenging for us. And waking up to the fact that he was always going to be disabled took a few years, to be honest. and people talk about it, this book's been written about it, you think you're going on holiday to Venice when you have your first child and then when you realise that they've got a lifelong disability that can be quite challenging for them and the family, you feel that the plane is diverted to Holland or Brussels and you think, well that's not quite the holiday I planned, it's not quite the life I planned, but then you learn to enjoy it and you find that there's some great food or some beer and you have some fun and you know I adore my son and have great laughs with him you just develop the relationship and so to come back to your question I think people I'm sure your listeners will feel the life you have with the people you love the most is the thing that that keeps you going and you're proudest long you were saying that we were at school together you were the year above me you were the school captain when I was in the um the first year sixth I had no idea of the struggles that you had the challenges you faced in your upbringing the loss of your mum and dad while you were very young and then you know being at school two older brothers by that point out of the school and by the time you were the school captain you made such a moving party political broadcast in the 2024 election campaign where you talked about your personal story about your son but also about your growing up my mum yeah can we just play a clip sure my uncle uh built this after my dad died we were living in certainly nashfield the idea was we would come to nottingham so we could be near at our school and so it was a happy period.

6:52And then mum became ill. And we had a mantra, sort of, we'd take each day as it comes. Just take each day as it comes. Because you didn't know what was gonna happen, no one knew. So she died 46, dad died 38. I spent hours talking to my mum on her bed. I remember this one time, I'd gone on a trip to Germany for two days with the school and show the picture to my mum, I wonder who you'll end up with. She was thinking about what would happen to me. Do you think she would have been proud of you? Go on. This is actually quite difficult, Thompson.

7:43I'd like to think she'd be proud of me. I think she would be. Hope so. I felt that reading your book, Why Care Matters, Why I Care and Why Care Matters, that making your mum kind of proud of you has been a driving force throughout your life. Yeah, I think it is for lots of kids, isn't it? They adore their mother and mother was... But they don't normally lose their mum when they are a young teenager. No, they don't. I mean, I remember I had a Rubicon moment. I'm not sure if I write about it in the book. I was in the kitchen. So we got this bungalow, which I mentioned in that clip. And when mum died, we kept it on for a few years.

8:23And I go back there, stay there by myself. On weekends, I was playing rugby or doing other things, sport and going out with mates. And it was during my O-level year, I was having to really revise and work hard. And previously, I'd done that to make my mum proud. And then I was thinking, why am I going to do this now? and it was real I spoke to myself almost out loud in the kitchen and I said well I'm I'm I'm doing it for myself still make my mum proud but I had to sort of take a new motivation for why I was gonna do all this work but she was there with me there's so much joy in your upbringing actually in the stories you tell and so much excitement and adventure and you know we remember blobs and spangles and sherbet fountains and when you can buy a packet of crisp two and a half people when bohemian rhapsody in the charts for you know over 10 weeks but you had an experience losing your mum and dad which is just different from from mine from so many other people's that is a shaping thing and then it's gone on into your adult life as well because with emily who has multiple sclerosis also your son john and in that ppb you also make a decision to talk very openly with pictures of john that is a big decision for a politician to make because it's not easy and You hadn't done that in the previous decade more of his life.

9:46You chose to do this because I think you felt it was important. Yeah. And you wanted to make a wider political point. Again, a little clip. It was a tough job caring. But family care is you do the vast bulk of caring. Governments have just ignored them. Just not listened to them. One thing I think one's got to get over about care and being a carer is you develop amazing relationships. I had an amazing relationship with my mum, my gran, my son. Really special. as I've got older and had all those caring responsibilities, seen life through the eyes of my son. Could not be more passionate and determined to sort out caring in this country.

10:22Was it hard to decide to be so personal about your family? Yes, very hard. You mentioned at school you didn't know what was happening. I didn't talk about it at school, and I haven't talked about it in my political career. Although I remember coming to you when you were Secretary of State about bereaved children. I don't know if you remember that meeting I had with you. Because in the background I was campaigning. but I didn't make it in the front, in the shop window. But when you become leader, people start asking you questions about your life in a way that they don't when you're, you know, on the front bench but not the leader.

10:52I had to answer them truthfully. And so I sat down with Emily and said, look, you know, I'm going to have to talk about some of these things. And we don't hide John. We're in the community. We don't go to church. And John is there. Often people seem to say hello to John more than they say hello to me because he's a bit of a finx in the community. So I'm not going to hide it. And then I thought, well, let's talk a little bit about it. And did one or two interviews. And then the response we got from people, thank you for talking about it. That's me that you're talking about. And so we talked about it a bit more.

11:23And the key challenge was where to put the boundary. So you're right, we show John. But if you notice, the angles are quite clear. And I'm afraid we refuse some film and some photographs because they don't show the right angles. So we try to protect him. And the other thing about it was because he can't give permission because he doesn't have that level of autonomy, Emily and I had to make that decision for him. And that's not an easy one, but partly because of the response we were getting from lots of people out there, we thought, actually, we should talk about our life experience. Your daughter, Ellie, is not in the film, and she is protected, and you use her name, but other than that, there's very little about her story and her hopes and her aspirations in the book.

12:11Yeah, and there's not going to be. The only thing I would say is that she's a young carer. And one thing I talk a lot about in the book is young carers. And I think as a society, we should really treasure those young people who have to give up a lot. And I was a young carer for my mum because she was so ill for three years. And when I meet young carers, some of whom have had the most extraordinary upbringings and challenges, I just, my heart goes out to them. I just feel we should do a lot more for them than we do. As it happens, our oldest daughter is called Ellie. And we had no photos of our children.

12:47We never used their names until they were over 18. I remember when she was 11, though, going to secondary school. And she said, when I walk across the playground, and, you know, at the time, Yvette and I were both just out of the cabinet. She said, when I walk across the playground, I want people to see me first, not to see the children of politicians. And what you're doing protecting your daughter is so important. Because, as you say, at that age, they can't choose. They can't choose. And, you know, she did say the other day when I collected from school, could I wear a hat? I know. The problem I had was when I was in politics, they didn't want me to wear a suit.

13:28whereas when I did Strictly my youngest daughter would say Dad, could you please wear a suit because nobody would know who you are if you're casual they'll immediately work out What did they respond to Strictly? Because that must have been another game plan The two oldest ones loved it They always sat in the studio three seats away from a vet so they were never on film we never referred to them but they came but there was a rule which you had to have there was an age you had to be at to go to the live show and our youngest daughter was just below it so she always felt slightly on the outside of it She couldn't go and see the live show for the insurance reasons.

14:01And so she was the one who was a bit... Look, their view was dads are supposed to be embarrassing. Yeah, yeah. But you're overachieving. You are so overachieving. Well, Centrist Dad is my playbook, right? Well, and as it happens, the name of our band selling out this Christmas. The thing which comes through in the book, though, in the care chapters, is frustration. And I remember as a constituency MP, I did a lot of work with disabled children and their families as well did their parliamentary hearings, that the feeling of fighting the system, of them not listening, and they're not seeing that actually a little bit of flexibility can solve a problem in a cost-effective way.

14:42You've lived that experience. But then also the frustration that successive governments, you know, the Labour government, the government you were part of, government since, they've all failed to grasp the issue of social care and, not just young carers but the whole system the whole lot yeah one of the reasons i was so keen to have our chat not just to remind ourselves of our 59 60 years oh no but was to get your insight into the treasury so i think the treasury when anything to do with care comes up they just see pound signs and i in the book i'm trying to argue that's completely the wrong way to see it we should be looking after families who care for disabled kids and loved ones with dimensional rest of it better because that's the right thing to do.

15:26However, if we support family carers, my thesis is it's really cost effective and it's the best thing to do. And I think just small amounts of money, whether it's a bit of respite care, whether it's a bit of training, whether it's a bit of adaptation in the home, really small amounts of money can enable families to care for their loved ones as they want to for longer and more effectively. And my question to you is, does that type of thinking ever get into the Treasury? Well, I think it depends upon, in the end, political leadership and what the government decides it's going to do. In my year as a junior minister, we published a Treasury document called Every Disabled Child Matters in which we funded respite care for families for exactly the reasons that you were saying.

16:16So I don't think the Treasury as an institution is opposed to this. But you've got to decide that you are going to make it a priority, that you're going to build a consensus. It has to be a consensus that will last more than a parliament. So I think it needs to be cross-party. And I think what's happened is, I don't blame the Treasury. I don't even blame chancellors. What I think is that prime ministers, chancellors and governments have decided it's just too difficult. And then they pull away. And we saw that with Boris Johnson. We saw that with Theresa May. We saw that with David Cameron and George Osborne over the Dilnot Review.

16:53But actually, go back to the previous period as well. I mean, I don't think we even got that far. So it's a religious failure. It might be fair to George Osborne for a minute. You know, that's a first, isn't it? No, the coalition government, I think it was partly down to people like Norman Lamb and Paul Burstow, got through the CARE Act 2014, which implemented in law the Dilnot Review. And so we got it through. And I remember those debates, and it was quite difficult. but then it wasn't implemented no and i spoke to andrew dillnott uh just a little while ago when the new government set up the care commission and i said look what needs to happen he says well the prime minister needs to tell the chancellor this is going to happen sure and it needs as you just say political leadership to make sure it actually happens and it's seen through i correct to say i don't see that happening and it's i mean you're a bit car skating here about the casey review louise casey great um yes civil servant and she could do a great review but a three-year timetable well it's worse than that they've actually said uh in last may that even whatever recommendation she comes out with won't be implemented to the middle of the next decade i mean this is nonsense you know as i say in the book there've been 25 reviews select committee inquiries commissioned since 1997 why didn't west streeting ask you to be involved in this review if he says now it's not just the casey review there's going to be three or four people to try and institutionalize a consensus about change and would you be one of the four would you say yes well let me be naughty if he becomes prime minister you know uh who knows well i mean i um i'd be surprised if he stopped from saying that even now i think that by the way that was not an answer to my question if he asked you would you say yes you notice um listen i we've already engaged with the casey review.

18:38So Louise Casey wanted to do this cross party, and I'm a big fan of Louise, by the way. We've had our first meeting. We engaged with her. So we would always want to get you. I mean, I can't write a book like that and feel as passionate as I do about it without wanting to make it work. I really, really do. I guess the issue would be, what are the terms of reference? Are they really going to go deep and wide enough? Because I genuinely believe this is an economic issue it's a health issue it's just not a care issue by itself they have to see the whole picture the thing i wanted in 2009 10 was to try and get a commitment to a review which we promised to implement in the manifesto which would be the thing which you would then take into the next parliament a bit like we did with one list in 2001 the nhs reforms i think it doesn't mean you have to be involved in the detail of the review but what you need is for all the big parties to say this is such a priority that we're all going to back this process and we're all going to work together to implement the findings when they emerge doesn't mean there can't be arguments about detail but at the moment it's just so easy for politics to walk away and it's so frustrating well and the last election we said there should be a cross-party uh commission on it we've argued for that whether the case commission will become that it's making the right noises but it's going so slowly so slowly i think the other thing which i just feel i mean you have an understanding of this i have a small understanding because my mum's been in care for a long time but also i did that bbc series where i worked in care people don't understand i mean there's a systems question about the complexity of the system and the risk for small providers and the lack of nhs engagement but the other thing people don't understand is how incredibly difficult the job is of being a carer and the fine line you walk between care and getting things done and respect and the agency of the person you're looking after and the idea this is a poorly paid unskilled job i mean it's really hard it's so hard it's so hard nobody gets that that they really don't and they don't value it until it's their relative.

20:52It's very interesting watching people when it's their relative in the care home or their relative who's disabled and suddenly a little light goes on. And I'm just hoping that by speaking out and campaigning as hard as we possibly can on it, more people will realise, yeah, this is an issue that has to be resolved. Here's the other thing that I find really weird about it. No one wants to talk about it. I mean, the media don't want to talk about it. Parliament doesn't want to talk about it. It's because most people who haven't had your experience to understand it. If you talk about going to primary school, we all went.

21:25We all went to secondary school. We've all been to A &E. We've all been to the GP. So many of us don't know what it is like to grow old because we haven't yet. But also, lots of people haven't had your direct experience. And therefore, it's actually a kind of foreign and slightly frightening conversation and people shy away from it. I think there's a bit of a taboo, a bit like death. People don't want to talk about it. They don't want to imagine what it's going to be like when I'm in a care home myself and, you know, I've got dementia. and so on. And we just recognize how common that is, and increasingly so.

21:52I do think you can cut through, though. I mean, what has been interesting, the number of people who come up to me in the street and say, thank you for talking about care, because there are millions of carers out there. That's why I want to broaden this debate, because politicians have kept it on social care. And that is a systems, and it's a bit dry, and it's about, you know, the care home. I think if you do that, we won't make any progress. If you bring it out into people's homes, where there are millions of people. People can then relate to it. And here's an interesting thing, which politicians need to get grip of, and that's the language we use.

22:26So the Treasury, the Department for Health and Social Care, used the word unpaid carers. It's a dreadful phrase because people never think of themselves as carers in the first place. They're looking after the loved one, and they're not looking for payment. So we need to find a different phrase. So I've used the phrase family carers. I've talked about looking after loved ones. If anyone's got a better phrase, if you look at the international academic literature, they talk about caregivers. So I'm open to the phrase, but let's ditch unpaid carers. It sends all the wrong signals. I hope that the government does engage with you on this because, you know, from your book, there is kind of so much that you have to offer.

23:06But the thing about your book is, which is surprising, I don't want to kind of throw back the word taboo at you. But there is actually very little about your experience in government. There's a bit about your time in energy and fighting the Treasury, but bigger reflections on the Lib Dems in coalition with the Conservatives, whether Nick Clegg made the right calls. I mean, Nick Clegg's barely mentioned in the book, and famously, you didn't mention him this autumn in your conference speech. I mean, are you slightly trying to airbrush out this coalition experience as a party leader? Because you are uniquely placed.

23:41I mean, We may end up with a hung parliament in a few years' time. You are uniquely placed as a party leader who's actually had direct experience of it. And I don't feel that you kind of want to talk about it. Oh, I'm really happy to talk about it. That book was about care. And there's another book in me, maybe about that experience and my political career. But I'm happy to give you a sort of entree into my thinking on that. One of the things about coalition government, from my experience, it was way more stable than people had ever thought. I think people thought, you know, it's not going to last very long.

24:14But we found a way to get that stability. And if you look at the majoritarian governments, towards the majority, now Labour, they've not really been stable, in my view. And they've not got things done. Was that because there was a coalition agreement that was written down at the beginning? I mean, is the lesson that you take from 2010 to 2015 that if there was to be another accommodation between parties after the next election, there should be a formal coalition with an agreed programme of work, which is announced in a rose garden by the two party leaders? Is that the right thing to do? Well, there are things that I would not do that happened during the coalition.

24:54But to your specific point, I think there's no way you can form a coalition without an agreement. If you look at countries around Europe, that's how they operate. And sometimes they have coalitions with two, three, four parties in them. And the only way it works is if you set out the broad program of the government. So not an informal understanding, but a proper written down agreement like that coalition agreement. Yeah, there are areas and they need to be more transparent. about things that are going to happen that you can't predict. Because actually what I think people vote for, they vote for a manifesto, yes, but they vote for a sense of values and a sense of direction of where you want to take the country.

25:35And so in addition to a coalition agreement, you've got to give a sense to people of where that government wants to take the country. Now, you could argue... Although you want to take it in a different direction from the party you're in coalition with. And that's legitimate. It's totally legitimate. You never really felt that with Nick Clegg? Well, all I would say is in the work that I did, particularly as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the Liberal Democrats were very clean on climate action and getting renewables off the ground. I have to tell you, I had lots of battles with certain George Osborne.

26:05I asked him this. George Osborne says in the cabinet, Vince Cable, Chris Hewn always used to go through a performative complaint about, for example, his budget in the cabinet. He said Ed Davey was always much more cooperative and didn't speak out and wasn't critical. And he thought you were actually rather quite comfortable in this arrangement. No, to be honest, I got my way. And there are many ways of getting your way. OK. And sometimes you smile and you explain that you're very much on their side while actually doing the things that you always wanted to do. So let me give you an example. The consulter are very keen for shale gas and for fracking.

26:43you might have noticed that it didn't happen. Well, okay. Good, good. And I can take you through the details, but my point is... I will go and study it. I made speeches just to placate them while I got the renewable revolution. And, you know, our proposal, we got rid of renewal obligation certificates that New Labour brought in and replaced it with contracts for different... It's all in the book. It's in the book. It's in the book. But what it meant was we got renewables much cheaper. And it's been copied the world over. So I'm really proud that we won that in the coalition. And how about the party leader being deputy prime minister and not having their own department?

27:24Well, I would want to talk to colleagues who are around and whether they thought that was such a good idea. I personally think I enjoyed running a department and enjoyed working with civil servants. Can I just say a word in favour of civil servants? You can. I think they've been really maligned in our country. And I think they are some of the most amazing public servants. and we should be really, really proud of them. Here's something from the... I 100 % agree, but I think you're taking me off my subject here, which is, if you want to be Deputy Prime Minister, would you rather have a proper job actually running a department?

27:54And other countries will have a party which has all the ministers in one department rather than having them spread across lots of different departments. What lesson have you drawn on that? Well, you're tempting to me into an area to talk about coalitions, where you are, which... That's because you said that you had lots of lessons and you were going to share them with me, so I got excited. I shared a few, but I'm not going to share too many. For this reason, I'm focused on winning more Lib Dem seats. And the truth is, who knows what the situation is going to be like in the next election. I've never known politics so volatile.

28:26and something that I think needs greater airing. We now have the right split for the first time ever in British politics. The far left now split. There's a huge opportunity for the Liberal Democrats. And, you know, I think if you look at some of the local election, not in the polls, of course, the polls aren't saying that we're about to steam to power, but the local election results, we're doing fantastically. And we're the only party that when we take on reform, we win. So I'm putting no seeding on our ambition to... One more question about the past. What were the mistakes that you think you or particularly Nick Clegg made in that 2010 to 2015 period, which you've got to learn from?

29:06I think you need to show that your economic policy is going to deliver for people. And I don't think that message got out there. And you look at politics today, people are really suffering. The cost of living is the biggest issue beyond anything else. whatever anyone else says it's you know people worried about food energy rent mortgages in a way that i can't remember so you and i've been in politics a long time cost of things always an issue right but it's never been the issue beyond anything else unless parties can address that and i don't think by the way my own party has been very good addressing that in the past so the mistake was to sign up too full-throatedly for the osborne public spending cuts austerity plan as a way to get the deficit down that in the end was the wrong call here's the thing we stopped them doing things that are far worse and if you look at what they did but you never spoke about that that's my point right so we stopped them doing major cuts and after 2015 they did huge cuts which we had stopped them doing you said to me a moment ago that your great skill was to get your own way without george osborne noticing but maybe the problem there is if the electorate didn't notice then you didn't get a political benefit yeah well uh the one interview i gave after the 2015 election was to say that if you're in the middle of the road, you better wear a high visibility jacket or you get run over.

30:25We are going to come back and talk about Ed Davey in high visibility jackets and other suits in a moment. First of all, we'll take a break.

30:42So we're going to talk about the future. I'm here with Ed Davey the Liberal Democrat leader who is clearly thinking there's a possibility he'll be back in government after the next election depending on how things fall but before we get to that I have an apology for you Ed we were at school together and you were the year above we both did medieval history we did indeed and very many times you've done media interviews where you've gone on about the fact that you lent me your history notes which I believe were actually your brother's history notes which have been passed down to you I'd improve them And I spent all weekend in the loft in our house, searching and searching for these notes.

31:22And I can't find them. And I think what happened, and I think you'll appreciate this, you may even applaud this. I think what happened was that, you know, I followed your example and passed them down to the next generation. However, I did manage to find English medieval history A-level notes. this is my full pack of notes from king alfred all the way through stephen henry ii john and the magna carta henry iii great times um i might need to take a photocopy but can i give you my notes to compensate that is so funny can i tell you that medieval history is very much at the front of my mind as the member of parliament for kingston serbiton well of course because seven anglo-saxon kings were crowned and you remember studying king athelstan uh alfred the great's grandson.

32:10He was crowned in 925, 1 ,100 years ago, on the 4th of September in Kingston. And we've been celebrating that. So I don't know what you've got here about King Athelstan, but I'm going to look with interest. I mean, look, the essay was, was King Alfred the first true king of the English? Do you remember that one? The answer is no. Was King Stephen reign a period of anarchy? Ah, that's a trickier question. because i think the answer is no the form of government change it looked anarchic but actually the barons took over it was a brilliant thing to study a medieval history podcast that'd be great but not today what um thinking back to your school time were you a kind of bit goody-goody or did you get into trouble i was always getting silly detentions for climbing on the ccf store roof to get a ball or in chemistry dropping something into a big vat of something to see how it well i had lots of detentions and therefore i never quite made school captain i was only a half captain Can I give a confession?

33:08The key thing was not getting caught. Okay. So, you know, you might have a joke in class and you could see the teacher was getting a bit impatient and then you go quiet and someone else... What was the worst thing you didn't get caught for? Taking a day off school and going to London to see Supertramp with a mate called Mick Platt. I hope you didn't drink underage. I can't possibly comment. Did you just go to the Arboretum pub at lunchtime? Not the Arboretum. There was another pub. The Muldry Bush? Not the Muldry Bush. Now you're confessing. Yeah. Of course, in recent weeks, another politician of our era, I think probably just a couple of years older than us, Nigel Farage, has got into quite a lot of hot water over remarks he made to school pupils, his contemporaries, over a number of years, including saying to Jewish students coming out of the Jewish assembly, Hitler was right and hissing and other clearly racist remarks.

34:03he says you know it wasn't intended to be um hurtful and it was banter and you've got to see it in the cultural context of the time the bbc had an eight and a half hot mom on with similar kind of jokes do you buy the idea because we were at school basically the same time yeah for farage are the kind of things he said the kind of things which everybody was saying in the playground and therefore this is all blown out of proportion i don't think they were one of my best friends at the time was a guy called Naresh Agarwal. And sure we would... His brother was Jagdeep. Yeah, Naresh and I are still in touch and meet up.

34:39So I wonder what Naresh would say, but the fact I'm still a friend with him suggests that we didn't have that type of banter. But, you know... People did tell jokes about disability or people used language then on television, which you wouldn't use now. Sure, and that is the case. But what's been striking about the Farage example is how many people have come forward and their recollections, which certainly ring true, of the way he went about it when there was a degree of malice in it. and I'm sure there would have been banter in a whole variety of schools when we were at that age, but the idea that they were intending to hurt people's feelings and make them feel isolated and disliked and hated, I don't think that was the case.

35:28When I listened to some of the evidence of the people who were at school with Nigel Farage, I think he was of a different order. And as a party leader, it's so exposing, and you've been through the heat of election battles. What advice do you give Nigel Farage as to how to handle this? I mean, the moment he's trying to brush it away and blame the BBC, is that going to work? Well, you just have to tell the truth. What did you do? What did you think? Maybe he doesn't want to tell the truth. I mean, the problem with the way he's doing it is a huge suspicion that what these many people coming forward are saying is actually true, is what he is about.

36:02And he's been trying to distance himself from the Tommy Robinson side of the far right, hasn't he? He's trying to be, you know, the smart suited, I'm just a normal sort of bloke. I don't believe in all that. Although that causes him problems in his coalition, because there's clearly people who are frustrated that he is dissing Elon Musk or Tommy Robinson. And Rupert Lowe is now on the outside because he doesn't feel that Nigel Farage has been tough enough in support for those people. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the far right, like the far left, splits and splinters for people who have got their true ideology.

36:34and I think he's in trouble. And I think at long last the BBC are giving him a hard time. You know I criticised the BBC earlier this year because I felt not just they were having him on a lot, but they weren't asking him the questions. I hope they start asking about his relationship with Donald Trump. I want them to ask him about his relationship with Vladimir Putin. I think there's a lot there still that needs to be exposed. And if he is going to be taken seriously as a political leader, if the BBC doesn't ask those questions, which are all out there. I mean, with lots of issues around them, I think they're failing in their job.

37:09Of course, Nick Clegg said in the run-up to the 2010 election that his rule was he would speak first if there was a potential coalition, a need to get a stable government. He would speak first to the party leader who got the largest share of the vote. And that could be Nigel Farage next time around. Listen, I'm just not thinking about the day after the next election. But you're very experienced. and Nick Plague talked about these things in advance. I mean, you know, we're looking for a bit. He may, but that's one of the reasons I'm not. I've noticed a lot of my predecessors used to spend a lot of time talking about the day after the general election and they didn't do so well.

37:47I'm going to say this immodestly now. I didn't in the last parliament talk about the day after the election. We got our best result for 100 years. You did a very... So I'm not going to, I'm afraid, even for your podcast, Ed, titillate you about what may or may not happen. My job is to, first of all, win more Liberal Democrat MPs as many as we possibly can, but partly to do that to stop Nigel Farage. Because the seats that we hold and the seats that we could win are the seats that Farage must have his eye on. We can stop him. You did an interview a couple of years ago with Zoe Williams and The Guardian, and you said this.

38:23Will this party ever enable another Conservative government? That's her question. This is really important. We will not put the Conservatives back into government or do any deal with them whatsoever. Personally, I've fought them all my life. I fought them in government. I'm fighting them now. They're beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned. So the Conservatives are beyond the pale. You'll do nothing to put them in government. But when I ask you about Nigel Farage and reform, you say, I don't want to talk about it. So does that mean that you're judging the Tories to a higher standard? You are more emphatic you won't put the Tories into government than Nigel Farage.

38:56what happens if in order to stop a reformed Conservative government, there has to be some form of Conservative Liberal Democrat understanding? Well, I think that interview that you've just quoted was before the last election and just before. I'm really clear about my position ahead of the next general election, where I'm focusing on what Liberal Democrats stand for, what we want to do in government. So what you said about the Conservatives of 2023 does not now stand. But listen, what I am saying, Ed, is that in interviews like this, I'm going to tell you that if you vote Liberal Democrat, you'll vote for a party that's pro-European, that wants to sort out a health service through social care, and is really strong on the environment, and believes in working with other countries to deal with the problems that our world faces.

39:41And has believed in working with other parties. And does believe. In the past. does believe that if we change our political system with electoral reform, coalition would be more likely and that would force parties to work together. And that is a good thing. So you're not ruling out an understanding with the Conservatives if that was necessary to stop a reform government? I'm not even addressing the question. You can ask the question. I think by not addressing it, you address it. No, no, no, well, you ask the question. I'm asking for guidance as to how you think about this and whether that emphatic view of the Conservatives in 2023 is still your guiding light.

40:15And I think it's not. I think people can look at the issues that I promote, the values that I put forward, and draw their own conclusions. My job as leader of the Liberal Democrats is to put forward those values and those policies. And I'm not going to be distracted. Some of my predecessors were, and I think they made a mistake. Because as I said to you earlier in this discussion, I'm not putting a ceiling on Liberal Democrat ambitions. And I don't think any of my predecessors for over 100 years have been able to look an interview in the eye and say, we've got no ceiling. Because politics is so unusual, with both the right and the left split, the need for a liberal progressive party that can speak to people on all sides, people who reject extreme views from the left and the right, the need for us has never been greater.

41:02So I want to show to people we are really ambitious. We've shown that we can win at a scale that people had never thought possible. And I want to show that we can win even bigger. I understand that. Look, I think you've shown an ability to connect with Middle England in what you said about Trump and what you said about care. And you were quite emphatic about Nigel Farage. And, you know, the fact that you aren't willing to say the same thing about the Conservatives, I think is also kind of interesting. So I think it's a legitimate question to ask. Some people have said, Trump or the Davey, it's all stunts.

41:35It's all, you know, bungee jumps and falling off boats and all that kind of stuff. I remember Harriet Harman once saying to me, she said, Ed, she said, you're really good on visits because you have a way of doing it which is a little bit like Dennis Healy. And, you know, there's a famous Dennis Healy by-election campaign visit when he went to a farm in South London and then started imitating the pigs. The truth is, for people to hear, you've got to open their ears. And sometimes the fun stuff helps. Yeah. I'll go even deeper than that. I've looked at the far right in this country and elsewhere way over the last few years.

42:10Maybe I shouldn't say Boris Johnson's far right, but, you know, he's on the right of politics. And Trump and Farage and their ilk. And what they've done brilliantly is use emotion in politics. Humour, but also talking to those negative feelings, those prejudice and so on. But also positive emotion, like in your PPB? Yeah. So what I'm trying to do in the PPB and the stunts is to use emotion back. So put a smile on people's faces. Yes. show them that you're actually quite a normal human being indeed even make them cry because I think emotion should be taken on by progressive parties to show that it's not a monopoly that the right have we get people but we also offer hope as well and if we don't do that if we are wooden and technocratic it's just not going to we're basically handing it to the right On Good Morning Britain we love Ed Davey coming on to do a bungee jump then we want to ask you about the customs union and European policy and tax policy and the idea is one or the other is absurd.

43:06Do you know what, Ed? I did all this since the last election. I had more interviews about our policies on Europe, on care, on mental health, on a whole range of things than any of my predecessors did. So there is a role for them. I have to say we review it all the time because we just want them to be effective. For some people, they don't like them. But, you know, I think showing that you can have a laugh and a smile is a good thing. At the time, though, you were being a little bit coy about the Lib Dem policy towards rejoining the European Union and the Customs Union. Do you think you're going to be more emphatic on that in the next election, or are you going to stay coy?

43:40I would slightly disagree with you, because I think if you read our manifesto, we were the most pro-European of the mainstream parties by a long, long way, and we remain so. And before Trump's inauguration early this year, beginning this year, I made a speech about us wanting the UK to rejoin the Customs Union. And we believe all the things that are happening, you know, the national security strategy that Trump's administration published just toward the end of December, they all point to the need for us to rebuild those European alliances as fast as we can. So Keir Starmer's right to say that we ought to be moving in that direction.

44:13He'll have your backing. There's a possibility of a cross-partition He's just going too slowly. Way too slowly. He doesn't show the ambition. I mean, I asked him this at PMQs the other day and his red lines against customs unions are still there, apparently. Final question, because we're out of time. The Christmas of your 60th birthday. as you said you still feel young you look young you've got loads of um politics and leadership still to come five years time where's aid davy going to be where would you like to be um where do you think you can get to the leader of many many more liberal democrat mps uh that's managed to achieve on our values and policies stopping the far right and nigel farage but showing that that a progressive agenda can deliver for people, whether it's financially in their pockets, so the cost of living is dealt with, whether it's reforming our NHS, whether it's showing that the UK, with our European neighbours and our Commonwealth neighbours, can withstand a Donald Trump.

45:11But you can't do that from opposition, so it's got to be in government in five years' time. I think that was... Not Deputy Prime Minister. Are you going to be Chancellor or Foreign Secretary in this coalition? I love your obsession about these officers of state. I'm not so upset. I've been in politics too long to believe for a second that you don't think it's important. Listen, changing people's lives is all it's about. To certain, all we ask, being in the cabinet is the best thing you ever do, but you can make a difference in the right job. What's the right job? The right job is being leader of the Liberal Democrats to show our values, and we're going to win.

45:47And I know you're tempting me, Ed, and I'm very naughty to do this, but I'm enjoying the job but I'm going to enjoy it more if we deliver for British people and that I personally believe that what we're seeing at the moment with Farage and co is against British values I don't think the vast majority the silent majority agree with him I think the British values of tolerance decency respect for the rule of law all these things that you and I sort of almost took for granted I think they're on the ballot paper I think our democracy is on the ballot paper I think the NHS is on the ballot paper I think British values are on the ballot paper and people need to wake up to that.

46:24And I'm determined to lead the opposition to Nigel Farage. 2030, five years time. Who knows where we'll be? Will social care be reformed? How many prime ministers will we have had between now and then on the basis of the last five or 10 years? Quite a few. I'm a candidate prime minister. I am a candidate to be prime minister. Davey, five years time. We'll see. But thank you for joining us. and a very, very happy birthday and happy Christmas. Thank you.

46:55So a very happy birthday to Ed Davey, his 60th birthday. We will see what 2026, 27, 28 bring for him and for British politics. That's all for this episode of Political Currency. We wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Yeah, we're going to be back on Friday on Boxing Day for our Gold and Kitchen Cabinet members. and then on Monday for the rest of our listeners with some Christmassy EMQs. And don't forget there's still time to gift the gift of political currency. Gift your loved one a kitchen cabinet subscription. They'll get a mug, a Christmas card from us, access to lots more perks.

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48:15you