How a gay hockey romance became a global phenomenon

0:01Okay, guys. So when we decided that we were going to have this conversation about the show, Heated Rivalry, I was like, oh, let me start watching the trailer for the show at my desk at work. And then you got an HR violation. Well, I started watching the trailer and was like, oh, no. And then I was like, let me go into an office and start watching. And then that was too much. I ended up just staying up until 1 o 'clock in the morning last night watching the show. Oh, hell yeah. Because it seems like that's the only right way to do it. I think that's right. You need the kiddos in bed before you can turn on this show and fully enjoy it to the maximum potential.

0:40From the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Martine Powers. It's Thursday, December 18th. Today, we are talking about Heated Rivalry. It's a new show on HBO Max that has been getting a lot of attention. It follows two young male pro hockey players, the reserved and cautious Canadian Shane Hollander and the brash and cocky Russian Ilya Rosanoff. In public, they are fierce competitors. And in private, they nurture a blossoming romance. The show is based on a book that has now reached the New York Times bestseller list. And the TV adaptation has shot to the top of HBO Max's viewing charts.

1:25Part of what's got everybody talking about this show is how this relationship is depicted. And here's where I need to mention that this episode will talk about sex and might not be appropriate for kids who are listening. Because as you'll hear, one thing that's notable about heated rivalry is its frank and vivid depictions of gay intimacy. I sat down with lifestyle reporter Rachel Kersias and post-style reporter Shane O 'Neill to talk about why this extremely steamy show has struck a chord with audiences and what it says about our collective anxieties around sex and relationships.

2:12All right, so before we dive into this TV series, I want to get a little bit of backstory because, Rachel, as I understand it, you basically made this TV series happen, that you were the single person who got this to be adapted from a book to something that now we're all watching. I think that's an overly generous interpretation of my role in this television show. Back in August 2023, I wrote a story for the books team all about the surprising popularity of hockey romance. And I included Heated Rivalry and I interviewed its author, Rachel Reed, because I love this book and I was really excited to talk to Rachel Reed.

2:53The showrunner, Jacob Tierney, read that article. He had already— So you know that he read your story. Yes. I spoke with him about it. Basically, he had already read Heated Rivalry, enjoyed it very much, but wasn't quite sure, like, oh, I like it, so I'll adapt it for TV. That wasn't really on his mind. And after reading my story in The Washington Post, he basically got this intense feeling of preemptive FOMO. Like, if someone else is going to read this and know that this needs to be adapted, and when someone else makes it and it's not me, I'm going to be mad. That's exactly what happened. And literally, after speaking with his production partner, the very next day, he reached out to Rachel Reed on Instagram, and they shortly thereafter inked a deal to option all six books in her Game Changers series.

3:43The wild part is that his sense of urgency wasn't off base. Shortly after that, Warner Brothers reached out to Rachel Reed, she told me. So there was a feeling that, oh, someone's got to do something with this book. And Rachel Gersey has had her finger on the pulse, pacemaker right here. Well, so let me ask you this. And Shane, I want to hear you on this too. Like, what is it about this book and then about the TV series that caught your attention? Or like, why did you have this feeling of like, oh, this is really good and this is a thing? For me, the characters, Shane and Ilya, who are the main characters in the book and the television show, they are pro hockey players who are rivals on the ice.

4:28They're always pitted against one another. And in the book, you learn that they're also hooking up over the course of nearly a decade. And that pairing has always had a really intense chokehold on me. It's one of my very favorite romance pairings. I mean, them specifically, because I think if I have a critique of romance novels more broadly, it is the idea that the, quote, book boyfriend in particular is now too perfect, right? He's the kindest guy ever with a six pack and also a billionaire. And I just find that kind of dull. What is so beautiful to me about romance is the idea that two imperfect people can find in one another and cultivate their own ideal of perfection.

5:17And throughout the book and the series so far, we're seeing that happen. And so I think that Shane and Ilya are just a very special pairing. And that's what spoke to me about it. Shane, what about you? I'm not sure I know it's good, but I know that it was a thing. Let's talk more about that. Like, why do you think it's a thing even if it is not good? And why do you think it might not be good? I'm being facetious. I mean, like, I'm enjoying watching it. I think it is exactly what it is and not trying to be anything else. And I think it's really successful at being a sort of, like, softcore, soapy fantasy.

5:54And I think it's hitting a lot of sweet spots between camp and genuine enjoyment. The short answer is that, like, you know, I'm gay and like my community online and in real life, this really struck a chord. Like people were talking about this before it came out and when it came out in a way that, you know, I haven't really heard maybe since like RuPaul's Drag Race or something. And the thing that I feel like we just have to put out there is like it's pretty – I mean, I don't know if explicit is the right word. There's just a lot of sex in this TV show. And I would like to say as I've been watching, there are other parts of the narrative that I find compelling.

6:28I find their relationship with their parents and their families interesting and like their relationship to the sport of hockey. But like, really, this is a show that is just a lot of sex scenes between these two very good looking men. And I think that's maybe in terms of like actually depicting what those relationships look like behind closed doors, that that's not something that we always see in TV when it comes to depictions of queer relationships. I think that's right. And the one thing I do want to say about the sex scenes, which have rightfully caught people's attention, is in the book and in the show, the language that these characters have long before they understand how they feel about one another or even what their own identities are is they have sex with each other consistently.

7:15And the way that the sex happens between them shifts over the course of the narrative. And I think that for the reader or the viewer, you can understand plot or character development through the kind of sex that they're having. Which, so for me, when I hear people say, it's just a sex scene, like, just a sex scene? This is plot. This is character. This is everything happening. This is how they're telling the story. I would really second that. I think that, like, you know, sex is always communicative. And I don't think that's often communicated in art or pornography for that matter. And I do think that what you said is absolutely right, that like you're getting plot moving forward and you're realizing how their relationships are shifting, which I think is true for a lot slash all relationships.

8:04But I think it's especially true for how gay guys get to know each other, where it's like, especially as relationships blossom, I think they start out sexually. And that can be the communication point that like allows things to grow and change. So I found that extremely realistic. The other element of this, and I don't think this can be understated, frankly, is the sound editing is really shocking. Say more what you mean by that. I have seen much more explicit things on my computer screen than I've seen on HBO Max. I'm not sure I've heard the sound effects quite so graphic. I mean, like, I gasped at the first one of the scenes where I was just like, I can't believe the audio that they're using for this.

8:44if I did have a dream interview, I'd love to talk to like the Foley artist who's doing this. It's really true. The audio, I think, is particularly turnt up in a way that I think is maybe subconsciously making it all seem a little more because, you know, you're not you're there's a lot of sex, but you're not like it's not. What do you call it? It's not like full frontal. There's no full frontal. There's a lot of back. A lot of butts. A lot of butts. We're specifically just the two butts over and over again. Exactly. And it's not like urological. It's not like an anatomical exploration. But I think that that audio really puts you in the room.

9:21Well, let me ask this. What do you guys make of the show's success right now? You know, the fact that when I open HBO Max, like this is the first thing that is like on the new end and watching kind of screen. Why do you think that this has hit a nerve with people and why so many people are into it? I want to first kind of set the scene of this being a little bit of a Cinderella story, because the idea that this is even on HBO was not a foregone conclusion. Heated Rivalry was originally just going to air on Crave, which is a Canadian streaming platform. And it was entirely funded by Crave, which kind of took a swing on this.

10:01And when I spoke with showrunner Jacob Tierney, what he said was when they were looking for other funding, there were all of these execs who would come into the room with notes that would have basically changed what this show is. Whether it was, maybe we don't need to actually see or hear the sex, right? Or maybe we need to introduce this one female character in the first episode. And Tierney basically said, no, that would functionally change what this show is and not really make it a faithful adaptation. And Crave backed him and funded the entire thing. And now they're really reaping the benefits of that, getting to distribute all of this internationally.

10:44But up until the last minute, heated rivalry fans were thinking, am I going to have to travel to Canada to watch this show? Get a Canadian VPN. Right, exactly. Shane, I'm curious your thoughts on this and particularly the fact that, I mean, it seems like this is a show that is really resonating with queer audiences, but also I think as Rachel and I demonstrate is also taking off with straight people, with straight women. I mean, well, what do you what do you make of the broad appeal of this? And do you think that's a good thing? I mean, short answer. Yes, of course, it's a good thing. I mean, I think people enjoying something as fun and fundamentally innocuous as this is, is a great thing.

11:27So, you know, I'll take an extremely long scope. Like, why is this so successful? I mean, go to an art museum. People always like to look at beautiful bodies. Like, you can, you know, if you go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, you're going to see a Kuro statue of, like, a ripped, you know, athletic male figure. And that's just a beautiful thing to behold, period. So I really do think that's a fundamental thing. I would also say that like historically in American culture, there are these moments where things, you know, we just have like, I don't know what you'd call them, collective horny moments.

11:58Where I'm thinking about like when Deep Throat came out in the 70s, it was, you know, like a low budget, hardcore pornography film from 1972. It had like a mainstream theatrical release and became a sort of chic thing for people to attend. So celebrities were attending screenings. It was not just in adult movie theaters. It was also in mainstream movie theaters. like Ed McMahon and Johnny Carson going to like see Deep Throat in a theater was sort of like mainstream culture wondering how we can integrate these like radical ideas about sex and and the way culture is shifting and it was a way to sort of be like okay like how how do we fit into this or Fifty Shades of Grey a woman said this to me and it stuck with me I don't know how you could see Fifty Shades of Grey and not see this as an exploration of the feminine shadow self in society that like and I think that you do sort of see that as a precursor to like all this discourse about trad wives and, you know, like the role of women who find power in being submissive or being otherwise, you know, like subservient to men.

12:53Yeah, that like as power dynamics are changing between genders in like the real world and the workplace and more widely, like how that plays out in romantic or sexual relationships too. And I would say that like we're also seeing this real crisis of like there's a lot of discourse about how hard it is to date and how difficult it is for heterosexual women to find meaningful relationships with men. And I think there's a lot of anxiety about like male-female couplings. And then from a gay perspective, I think it's just it's really hitting a sweet spot between like mostly fantasy, but a little bit reality.

13:24The premise is there's enough conflict, but no one's scared that these characters are going to get killed if they're outed for being gay. But like the conflict of not wanting to be a professional athlete and coming out is real. And then just like the content itself, I think, is really striking an incredible balance between like being just prurient enough that that, you know, jaded queens like myself will gasp, but still being like creamy and fantasy driven enough that it still feels like wholesome and kind of silly and sweet.

13:58After the break, I talk with Shane and Rachel about whether heated rivalry is just shallow, sexy fun, or whether it says something deeper about how audiences are thinking about sexuality in a post-MeToo era. We'll be right back.

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15:03Shane, I find what you said super fascinating, and I want to hone in on that a little bit more because I feel like that was my feeling in watching this as well. I guess what makes romance, at least romance for straight people, a little bit more complicated right now, as you said, Like this is this moment where we're sort of in the aftermath of the Me Too era. And there's a lot of talk about how men and women in the U.S. are not politically aligned or that, you know, lots of women feel like there aren't men that they see day to day that they are actually interested in dating. And so I hear you on that in that it feels like because being, I don't know, I guess like being a straight person in a relationship is so complicated right now, watching something else is really fun.

15:45There's definitely an escapist element, I think, for women who date men of I'm not in it. And isn't that great? I can just fully immerse myself into this cultural artifact without feeling like I'm comparing myself or otherwise a part of it in any way. But I think when you talk about the chemistry, that's another thing I really want to hit on, because what heated rivalry dares to imagine is what if we cast romances with leads who have chemistry with each other, which is something I think that we just simply don't see a lot. Haven't you seen all of these rom-coms where these characters have this alleged scripted repartee, but there's nothing kind of zinging off the screen?

16:27Yeah. And I wonder if maybe that's because we're or I guess like the people who do casting for movies are more interested in getting two celebrities. That's right. Who just have their own following versus like two people who get along with each other. And these are two complete, you know, I don't think that people knew who these actors were on a broad scale at all. I'd never seen them before. Before this show. And instead they were cast for their abilities and in particular their chemistry with one another. And it shows. Mm hmm. I would also just say that like, yeah, what you were saying about their chemistry.

16:57Their chemistry really is remarkable. I mean, the scenes feel extremely intimate, and I think they feel intimate in a way that we're just not used to seeing. Like you said, I don't think that mainstream art or media is taking the time to create scenes that have this kind of intimacy. Pornography, which is enormous, certainly is not creating these markets for intimacy. So I think in that sense, it is shocking because it's something that we're not seeing. We're not seeing mainstream people approach this with care, and we're seeing everything anatomically in pornography, but we're not seeing these intimate moments.

17:29Well, Shane, I want to ask this question because this is a criticism that I've seen and heard about this series, and I'm curious if you feel like it holds water. The suggestion that this is a romance about two queer men that's actually written and filmed for straight women. Do you think that's fair? Well, do we have a problem with Sex and the City? I mean, that was a show that was about women having sex with men that was written by and for gay guys. I mean, that was Darren Star being like, this is my fantasy of what it would be like to be a gay guy. So if you do have a problem with that, then don't watch The Golden Girls because that's also just like straight women living out a gay metaphor, period.

18:08And I just wanted to add one element to this conversation that I feel like we constantly hear, is it for gay men? Is it for straight women? And I think that we're forgetting a lot of the fans who are on the front lines of the heated rivalry fandom are lesbians. And I just think that it's overly simplistic to think that this is for one or for another when, you know, the creator of the show is a gay man. And this was something that Jacob Tierney told me is that your general understanding of a story arc is totally different here. Right. And ironically, like, quote unquote, your average romance kind of mirrors the arc of a male climax.

18:49Right. There's like rising, rising action and then climax and then falling action. Whereas here they're hooking up from the outset and they they meet first physically and get to know one another physically far before any emotion comes into it. And I think that that mirrors a lot of people's real world experiences that you don't see as often on television or in movies. I mean, you know, I'm feeling a little blushy about talking about this, but like, you know, I have heard from many lesbian women for years that like a lot of lesbians enjoy gay male pornography. And I think that like gay male erotica has the advantage of extricating itself from patriarchy.

19:29And I think that there are things in this show that you're seeing that would make you uncomfortable if it were a male-female dynamic. Like, for example, a workplace romance, for example, hitting on each other in a shower, you know. So I think there are explorations of sort of like taboos that when you're subtracting the idea of like a man subjugating a woman, we're more comfortable with two men sort of exploring these things. And, you know, it sort of opens things up a little bit when you're not worried about sort of like the health and wellness of the woman involved. I think that's one theory that I have for it.

20:03Yeah, I think that's right. It speaks to this escapist idea. I don't think that the show itself is free of the idea of patriarchy, right? Like most of their reason for secrecy is that they're professional athletes in this hyper-masculine world. And it's only when they are with each other that they are kind of free from those burdens, even though by being together, it almost heaps those burdens on them more, which is as a romance lover, forbidden romance is like one of the sweetest of them all. And, you know, and I think that that is also part of the appeal sometimes of an MM romance is that a lot of times when you read contemporary romance, the things that are keeping the characters apart are frankly stupid.

20:45Like, text each other, you know, like this isn't a Regency romance. Like, give the other person a call. Send them a DM on Instagram. Like, it's not that hard, actually. Yeah, I feel like it becomes increasingly difficult to set up obstacles that feel believable because it's like you can just be with each other and talk to each other if you want. And I feel like in this show, the obstacles are very believable and they make sense to me. And also they're external of the characters, even though certainly they feel them, which allows their romance to bloom in really fascinating ways. Yeah, yeah. Well, I could talk about this for hours and hours.

21:21But just to close, I want to hear from you guys. What do you think this show says about the state of American sexuality? It's strong. The state of our union is strong. But also, I just want to say, like, I think in framing this about American sexuality, you're erasing the fact that this is a Canadian show. Yeah, you're right. You're right. This was funded by Canada. Like, this is Canada's greatest cultural export since, what, hockey itself? Okay, so what is the state of Canadian sexuality? Unfortunately, I can't speak to that. Shane, what about you? I mean, I think the fundamental thing is just that, like, there's always an appetite for watching the human form be beautiful.

22:01And I think that that's sort of a constant. So I don't think that's new. As far as what it says about sexuality, what's most interesting to me is how wholesome it all feels. And that we're certainly at a place right now where even though one of the fundamental conflicts is just like coming out of the closet, which to a lot of gay guys feels extremely retrograde and extremely like we did that in the 90s, whatever, whatever, that the basic tenet of it still feels wholesome and it still feels something that is not a filthy secret unto itself. I think that's really telling. we're at a sweet spot where we are comfortable with a gay relationship but there's still enough discomfort that there's a spark and i think that we're at a place where it's fun to feel consequence-free titillation or nervousness and i think maybe a lot of us are trying with so much genuine anxiety about our future i think sort of reverting to these sort of like smaller scale schoolyard anxieties about like i like him but can we be together i think that it's a really welcome escape and also like a really welcome way to live out conflict in a way that doesn't feel just so dark and heavy and guilty.

23:11Rachel and Shane, thank you so much for chatting with me about this amazing show. The idea that we're paid to do this is so delightful. I can't even begin to tell you. I second that wholeheartedly.

23:28Rachel Krizias and Shane O 'Neill are reporters for The Post. That's it for today's episode of Post Reports. Thanks for listening. And before we go, I've got one quick request for you. So we want to learn more about you, about your listening habits, and about how you think we can be doing better. So we've got a new survey that we're running for a limited time. and we would love to hear from you. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to complete. And to do that, you go to WashingtonPost.com slash podcast survey. Again, that is WashingtonPost.com slash podcast survey. And when you're done with the survey, you can enter to win a$100 gift card.

24:12So if that has persuaded you, one more time, it's WashingtonPost.com slash podcast survey. And thank you so much for taking the time to help us. Today's show was produced by Thomas Liu. It was mixed by Sam Baer. It was edited by Peter Bresnan. And thanks to editor Nicole Arthur. I'm Martine Powers. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from The Washington Post.

24:50Good journalism is even better when it's shared. With a premium subscription to The Washington Post, you get three extra accounts to share with friends and family, so they can stay informed, too. Right now, you can get a premium subscription to The Post for$6 every four weeks. Just$6 unlocks trusted reporting to share with other people in your life. After your first six months, it'll cost$19 every four weeks. You can cancel anytime. Head over to WashingtonPost.com slash subscribe and get premium access to The Washington Post today. That's WashingtonPost.com slash subscribe.