Marco Rubio, the Viceroy of Venezuela

0:01Marco Rubio has worn many hats in this administration. He's the secretary of state. He's the president's acting national security advisor. He's the acting archivist of the United States. And now he's also the viceroy of Venezuela. John, I didn't even know viceroy was a thing. Like, what is a viceroy? And, like, how did we end up having one? Yeah, so it's sort of a colonial era term, meaning an official that rules over a colony on behalf of a sovereign or a king. I was going to say, I feel like I've heard the term viceroy in like Pirates of the Caribbean or something. Yeah. It's been somewhat cheekily applied to Rubio in this case.

0:44It's not his official title. Okay. But it is emblematic and representative of the extraordinary event that we have just seen take place in which the United States bombed a foreign country, apprehended its leader, And now the president of the United States says it's going to run the country with the help of Marco Rubio.

1:10From the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Martine Powers. It's Tuesday, January 6th. Today, I'm talking with my colleague, State Department reporter John Hudson, about the man at the center of U.S. actions in Venezuela right now, Secretary of State Rubio. On Saturday, as President Donald Trump held a press conference about the arrest of Nicolas Maduro, I was struck by how, standing right over his shoulder, his literal right-hand man, was Rubio. And Rubio was there to make the sell, justifying this aggressive action to the American public. I want to be clear about one thing.

1:51Nicolas Maduro had multiple opportunities to avoid this. He was provided multiple, very, very, very generous offers. and chose instead to act like a wild man, chose instead to play around. And the result is what we saw tonight. So now I'm talking with John about how Rubio got to this moment, his decade-long push for regime change in Venezuela, his evolving relationship with Trump, and what happens now that Rubio is apparently running the show.

2:29John, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to be here. So, John, you have reported that Marco Rubio was, in your words, central to masterminding this ouster of President Nicolas Maduro. What does that mean? Like, how did he mastermind this? Yeah. So, you know, ever since Trump came into power, he has been talking to aides. He's even said publicly he's talked about his desire to strike drug cartels. And Marco Rubio, as the secretary of state and also his national security advisor, has played a key role in helping push Trump to consider the consequences of where he might strike a drug cartel either by land or by sea.

3:18And obviously for those familiar with the war on drugs, some of the countries that you might think of first and foremost would be places like Mexico, places like Colombia, the countries that are major contributors to the drug war. Of course, if the United States were to strike an important ally like Mexico, that would have huge ramifications. And so Rubio, aware of those, was a key person encouraging Trump to do the strikes where they ended up happening, which was in a number of boats outside of Venezuela. For Rubio, that achieved a couple of things. One, you don't have this huge chaotic rupture with a key neighbor in the form of Mexico.

3:59And two, it ramps up military pressure against Maduro, who Rubio has long angled to oust from power. Well, let's talk a little bit more about that. You know, this point that, sure, it's about the war on drugs generally, and this is a way to tackle the infiltration of drugs into the U.S., but specifically that Rubio has long had this profound interest in trying to basically change the political situation in Venezuela. Talk more about that. Like, why is Rubio so invested in what's going on in Venezuela and how has that played out over the course of his career? Yeah. I mean central to Rubio's thinking about Venezuela is his identity as a Cuban-American and his experience of his parents who left Cuba in the 50s before the communist takeover and Rubio's upbringing in Republican Florida politics where Cuba is seen as the ultimate evil of socialist government in Latin America as hostile to civil liberties, political rights.

5:03It's a dictatorship that has had an iron grip over the island for decades. And that Venezuela, which supports Cuba through shipments of oil, is seen as a key country propping up Cuba. And so, you know, if the Venezuelan domino falls, so too might the Cuban domino in the hopes of many in Florida Republican politics.

5:33And just to understand, what does Venezuela get out of that relationship? Yeah, I mean, basically they have a quid pro quo relationship whereby the Cuban government provides medical resources and security detail for Maduro himself. I've been told by U.S. officials, in fact, that some of the security guards that were killed in the U.S. operation were Cubans. and in return, the Venezuelans offer cheap and discounted or in some cases free oil to the Cubans. So they have a quid pro quo relationship. So then given that Rubio has expressed in the past his desire to see a different future for Venezuela, you know, obviously the boat strikes were happening over the summer, but how did he finally convince Trump to basically say, no, we need to go in there and to take out Maduro?

6:23Yeah, it's really interesting because, you know, So Rubio's goals for Venezuela, for Cuba, he's a big believer in using U.S. military power to oust leaders and bring in a democratic process. Those are not arguments that prevail over Trump. Trump was ultimately persuaded because he saw two major factors in Venezuela. One, you know, it sits on some of the world's largest oil reserves, and it has been a major exporter of migrants to the United States and elsewhere. And so ultimately, Trump saw a few things. He saw the opportunity for oil companies, U.S. oil companies, some of whom have had their assets appropriated by the Venezuelan government.

7:11and he saw the possibility of, you know, curbing migration to the United States. Suffice it to say that there are experts that raise doubts about both of, one, how lucrative this could be for the United States or U.S. oil companies who may not even want to enter an unstable environment like this. And then second, you know, it's very possible that Venezuela could become more unstable following Maduro's ouster, which is often a key contributor to more migration outside of Venezuela. And so you could see that situation becoming even worse. Obviously, there have been a lot of criticisms about how this attack played out and the fact that it happened at all and also the fact that Congress wasn't alerted to this beforehand.

7:59And Rubio has really been in the position of being like the defender in chief, I guess, after Trump of, you know, why this was justified, why this was necessary. Tell me about what he said and how he is justifying this capture of Maduro and this attack on Caracas. Yeah. So I spoke to Rubio after Trump's press conference announcing the capture of Maduro. So Mr. Secretary, John Hudson here. You said at the presser today that the military operation, it wasn't possible to share with lawmakers. And I asked him if he regretted what he had said to Congress a few weeks ago, which was that, you know, he would seek their permission and their approval for military action or action against Venezuela.

8:46And he said, I think what lawmakers were asking me about and what everybody thought was that the United States was going to conduct military strikes for military purposes, that we would be invading Venezuela, that we would be conducting missile strikes against them for purposes of military operation. This was not while this operation was conducted by the military. This was a law enforcement operation. In response to that, I said, look, a lot of people will look at what happened. They'll see that the U.S. bombed Venezuela. They seized its leader and that they now claim to be running it as a major military action, full stop.

9:20And he said simply that the military actions like hitting anti-aircraft machinery were necessary so that the law enforcement officers could swoop in and grab Maduro and haul him off to New York. And when you go in to grab a fugitive in a country where even though he's not the legitimate president, he has military-like forces protecting him. These guys have SAMs and they have shoulder fired rockets and they have things that pose a threat to our forces coming in and out. We're not going to get the helicopter shot down and either on the way in or on the way out. And so we had to protect our force by suppressing those threats.

9:57And that's what the mission was focused on yesterday. And it involved both kinetic and non-kinetic activities that are unique to the United States. And that's what we did. And I think evidence of it is the fact that no American lives are lost, no American equipment was lost, and both Nicolas Maduro and Celia Flores were arrested and removed from the country safely. And, you know, they're both safe and they'll both be facing justice. I think a lot of people are going to, you know, see that and say that really doesn't justify not seeking approval. And, you know, almost any military action can be justified under such a large loophole that he's pointing to.

10:36But I think the argument that you heard from him is also going to play out in court as well as the administration seeks to pursue its indictment against Maduro. And then, of course, there's the criticism of the fact that Congress was not kept abreast of this, that the administration didn't get authorization from Congress. And Rubio actually addressed that in that first press conference that he did with President Trump. We call members of Congress immediately after. This was not the kind of mission that you can do congressional notification on. It was a trigger-based mission in which conditions had to be met night after night.

11:11We watched and monitored that for a number of days. So it's just simply not the kind of mission you can call people and say, hey, we may do this at some point in the next 15 days. But it's largely a law enforcement function. Remember, at the end of the day, at its core, this was an arrest of two indicted fugitives of American justice. And the Department of War supported the Department of Justice in that job. Now, there are broader policy implications here, but it's just not the kind of mission that you can pre-notify because it endangers the mission. So let's come back to this idea of Rubio as viceroy.

11:41What do we know about what his leadership will look like? Is he going to, quote, unquote, run the country in Trump's words? Or is his leadership and guidance here going to be a little less formal in terms of what we've heard from Rubio himself? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, what we can divine so far from his statements is that his view of exerting influence is going to come in the form of threats of violence that the United States might might wage another attack, might fly into Venezuela again. And essentially, it will exert influence over the existing government rather than installing his own people.

12:21He's going to exert influence and do that by either threatening violence or threatening economic penalties. He has said and mentioned that the quarantine of Venezuela continues. The seizure of ships carrying oil, the key lifeblood of Venezuela, will continue as he sees fit. And the hope for Rubio and the Trump administration at large is that they can dictate to the Venezuelan government what they want to see because they've already shown that they're willing to use spectacular force. And maybe that will be enough to see that Venezuela governs itself in the way that the United States wants. And what do they want to see?

13:05And specifically, what does Rubio want to see? What are his goals for how this all plays out in Venezuela going forward? The goals that Rubio has spelled out is that Venezuela conducts itself in the way that it wants to. And some examples would be, you know, not having diplomatic alliances with countries we don't like, like Iran and Hezbollah. I think it's very, very clear from talking to officials that the priorities that Trump has are very different. Trump is very laser focused on the oil. That's very important to him. He's laser focused on Venezuela not be a net exporter of migrants. And those are going to be two important things that they watch for very closely.

13:50And you have to assume that Rubio, as quite a faithful implementer of Trump's agenda, he's going to be watching that very closely.

14:03After the break, more with John, and we'll talk about the big question. Is Rubio setting his sights on Cuba next? We'll be right back.

14:28Thank you.

14:58I want to come back to, you know, your description of Rubio's personal story, the fact that his parents were, you know, emigrated from Cuba and were part of the anti-communist Cuban community in South Florida. So, like, given that, there's this question of, OK, well, if Trump is now willing to go into countries and take out leaders that he believes are working against the U.S., I mean, if it happened in Venezuela, maybe it could happen in Cuba, too. And maybe Marco Rubio is pushing in the direction of this happening in Cuba if, you know, this is such a big part of his personal story. What do you make of that?

15:37Like, do you think that there's a world where Rubio is advocating for more serious military action in Cuba next? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I mean, this would be the grand prize and something Rubio would see as a signature achievement. He has wanted regime change in Cuba for as long as he's been a politician. Trump was asked about this directly on Air Force One, and he said, no, this isn't going to be our goal to impose a regime change effort in Cuba. He thinks that Cuba is simply going to fall apart and crumble as a result of the actions that he's taken. Unclear if that will happen.

16:19I mean that's based on the assumption that if Venezuela is no longer sending free or discounted oil to Cuba, that Cuba's economy, grip on the island will crumble and new leadership will take over. I think many people have doubts about that. Cuba has survived a lot over many decades. The Cuban regime, despite the United States viewing it as a chief adversary and pressuring it in many different ways. But the specter of major changes in Cuba and more aggressive U.S. policy towards Cuba is certainly something that everybody is looking at. And Rubio said during that first press conference about the capture of Maduro that Cuba should be concerned.

17:06Suffice it to say, you know, Cuba is a disaster. It's run by incompetent, senile men and in some cases not senile but incompetent nonetheless. It has no economy. It's in total collapse. And by the way, you know, they were, you know, all of the guards that helped protect Maduro, this is well known, their whole spy agency, all that were full of Cubans. I mean, they basically, it's amazing. This poor island took over Venezuela in some cases. One of the biggest problems that Venezuelans have is they have to declare independence from Cuba that tried to basically colonize it from a security standpoint.

17:37So, yeah, look, if I lived in Havana and I was in the government, I'd be concerned at least a little bit. So, John, I just want to talk a little bit more about this moment and what it means for the Rubio-Trump relationship. Because, I mean, Rubio is someone who for a while was known as like one of Trump's biggest rivals, vocal opponents. I mean, I know that, you know, basically you can pick out so many people in the administration who are former Trump opponents who said mean things about him in the past. But Rubio in particular, you know, used to call him dangerous, a con artist. I bet you you all know you all have friends.

18:16You all have friends that are thinking about voting for Donald Trump. Friends do not let friends vote for con artists. And now is so much in the Trump fold. And I wonder if you think that that this, that convincing Trump to go into Venezuela and take out Venezuela's leader, if that was Rubio's long game in all this, like why he was willing to kind of play ball with Trump, why he wanted to become Secretary of State under Trump was to make something like this happen. I think it absolutely was his long game. I think in many cases, in his job as Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, there have been things that Trump has pushed for that make him deeply uncomfortable, that are antithetical to the Rubio that we know.

19:02I mean, examples. Rubio has cultivated a career as one of the most prominent Russia hawks in the United States Congress when he was a senator. Trump says flattering things about Putin all the time. Rubio fashioned himself through many, many years in Congress as a prominent defender of democracy and human rights. Trump has said that those issues should be far on the periphery when it comes to the core interests of the United States. And so Rubio has sort of husbanded his resources and his political capital within Trump's circle to really focus on the issues Rubio cares most about. And there are few more important than getting rid of socialist leaders in Latin America.

19:52This is the ultimate prize for him. So if he has to sit down and meet with the Russians, if he has to watch as U.S. foreign policy engages with people he'd never imagined they would engage with like Hamas and other terrorist groups, he's going to swallow that. And as we've seen since the start of this administration, he's going to swallow that willingly and gleefully in order to implement the things that he really cares about. And this is a huge bureaucratic victory for him, especially if you consider that a core selling point of Trump's presidency was to be against regime change, against foreign intervention.

20:37This is a massive foreign intervention and a regime change effort that just happened before our eyes. Yeah, and it speaks to the extent to which it seems like Rubio is really wielding influence successfully. Like he really has Trump's ear in this. Absolutely. This doesn't happen without Marco Rubio, and Marco Rubio is going to be essential to the next phases of this. You already saw him being the key interlocutor with the new recently sworn in interim president, Delce Rodriguez. He's got on the phone with her. Whether or not Trump has accurately described Rubio's conversations with her, we don't know.

21:14Trump has depicted those as very amenable, very cordial discussions with which she said she's willing to work closely with the United States. Her public remarks have accused the United States of being a colonial power, abusing a smaller Latin American country. But this is just in the early phases of this relationship. But they're going to be leaning on Rubio's Spanish proficiency, his knowledge of leaders in the region, and maybe his relationship with the Venezuelan opposition, which I'm sure we're going to talk about a little bit more today as well. Well, yeah, let's talk a little bit about that, because there is this question that we posed in Monday's episode of Post Reports about why the opposition in Venezuela doesn't seem to be taken seriously by the Trump administration right now.

22:02You have Maria Corina Machado, who is this in many ways beloved figure by a large portion of the Venezuelan public, that her party won the election that took place a couple years ago, that she just won this Nobel Peace Prize, that she's been seen internationally as like a legitimate alternative to Maduro. And yet it seems like Trump's not really interested in her. And it sounds like Rubio isn't either. Why is that? Yeah. I mean, put this in the category of things Marco Rubio has to stomach in order to get what he wants. You know, in a world where you have a president, Rubio, I don't think anybody doubts that after a regime change effort like this took place, the first thing that he would do was fly Machado into the country and, you know, hold elections as soon as possible, the paving the way for her to become the next president of Venezuela.

22:59That's not happening. There's different reasons that people assess why that that is. Obviously, it's because Trump doesn't want it to happen. Is it because she accepted the Nobel Peace Prize award, making Trump envious with rage and being opposed to that? That could be the reason. Really? Absolutely. We've heard from two people familiar with the matter in a story published yesterday who said that that was absolutely a factor in Trump's mind. And he was enraged by that. You also have to consider other potential factors. You know, Trump's signature is a light footprint when it comes to taking military action and doing a massive sort of regime change effort that includes rooting out all of Maduro's officials.

23:48That just wasn't in the cards in this operation. And if you're not going to do that, then you do have to be open to the idea that you're going to just be dealing with a rump Maduro administration with Delce Rodriguez now assuming leadership roles. One last question. You know, you mentioned that this was a huge achievement for Rubio and also how this would be playing out politically in a world where Rubio was president. Do you think this is part of him making the case to run for president in a few years, that this will be one of the captain's feather of, you know, I promised that we were going to be hard in Venezuela.

24:30And look, we made it happen. And this is, you know, who I would be as president if you were to vote for me. I think there's no question that if Marco Rubio was assembling a LinkedIn profile for presidency, this would be the top bullet point that he would put in. And especially as a former senator from Florida, as a person who would be looking to win Florida, there are a lot of Venezuelans in Florida who are very pleased about this. Absolutely. Anti-Cuba, anti-Venezuela sentiment is sort of built into the DNA of any Florida politician, especially a Republican politician in Florida. It's so central to their identity and what they view as like a just cause.

25:12And so we should expect that to be a really important building block for him as long as things go well. I mean, I have to stress that it's too early to tell if things are all going to go well. That there is a world where this could blow up in his face. Absolutely. There's no guarantee that this is going to be a stable and secure Venezuela, what they've left in the post-Maduro wake. It could cause even more poverty and hardship, more migration. The very thing that Trump was trying to prevent could be accelerated. And there's absolutely no guarantee that oil companies are going to start seeing green dollar signs anytime soon.

25:55And what is a very unstable and unsure bet at this point in time. John, thank you so much for explaining all this. Thanks for having me.

26:07John Hudson reports on the State Department for The Post. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by Rennie Svernofsky. It was mixed by Sam Baer and edited by Rina Flores. Thanks also to Ben Pocker and Andy de Grandpre. The kind of inside reporting about our government and the power players in it, that insight is what you get when you have a subscription to The Washington Post. Right now, you can access The Washington Post for just$2 every four weeks. That's for the first six months. After that, it'll cost$12 every four weeks. Cancel any time. You'll get unlimited access to trusted journalism that helps you understand the world around you.