Trump keeps trying — and failing — to move on from Epstein

0:02One of the things that I really like about politicians is... I cannot wait to see where the sentence goes. Go ahead. Is that they can be very much like actors in that they always know where the camera is. Like, I am stage left. I am stage right or whatever. And Trump is especially good at that. Yesterday, he's touring the Fed and he's basically criticizing Jerome Powell, the chair of the Fed. And he starts speaking and he's like, no, Jerome, come here, come here. And he basically puts him directly in the line of the cameras and all of that stuff. so that like, you know, everybody can see as he's kind of given it to Jerome Powell or whatever.

0:38So I think Trump is just a master at understanding like camera angles and dramatics and art. And the problem with like this moment is that he's kind of using everything that he and the press office can do to try to deflect or distract or whatever. And it's just not working. Everybody wakes up and it's like, what's going to happen with this Epstein stuff?

1:04From the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is Post Report's weekly politics roundtable. It's Friday, July 25th. I'm Colby Echowitz. I'm joined today by my colleague, White House reporter Cleve Woodson. Hey, Cleve. Hey, good morning. And congressional reporter Kadia Gova. Good morning. So this is the story that Trump just can't get away from. This week, Republicans remained paralyzed over the fallout of Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. In Congress, some House Republicans joined Democrats in continuing to press for the release of any Epstein-related files. So to avoid the issue from escalating further, Speaker Mike Johnson literally shut down the House, sending members home early for its month-long summer break.

1:46And then meanwhile, Trump has tried to refocus his MAGA base on old conspiracy theories around the 2016 and the 2020 elections, including sharing a deepfake video that was so crazy that even former President Obama felt compelled to respond. So let's kind of recap where we are. Last week on the show, we talked a lot about Donald Trump's relationship to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, who is the financier who died in jail in 2019, and then the administration's refusal to make public any government documents related to Epstein. And this week, The Wall Street Journal reported that Trump's name appears several times in documents related to the Epstein investigation.

2:28Late last week, the Wall Street Journal also reported of the existence of a birthday note, allegedly from Trump to Epstein, with a sketching of a naked woman on it and a reference to a, quote, wonderful secret. Trump denies writing this. So, Cleve, bring us up to speed on the latest fallout from all of this Epstein reporting. Sure. Just quickly, you know, briefly. You want me to start in 1982 in Palm Beach? Yes, please. In Palm Beach. If you could tell Tell us exactly how Trump and Epstein met. And involves real estate. So on the White House side, the White House, Trump specifically, have all tried very, very strongly to deflect or distract to get the MAGA base to turn the page from all of this Epstein stuff.

3:14You know, the Justice Department interviewed Ghislaine Maxwell earlier this week. She's Epstein's former girlfriend. And Trump has asked the Justice Department to petition the courts to see if there's anything that can be released. But at the same time, he's also sort of desperately trying to get people to focus on anything that is not Epstein, whether it be Obama. What he said is Obama's participation in an attempt at a seditious coup against Trump. He declassified the MLK assassination files earlier this week, and it's just not working. And then, Kadia, this is also true on the Hill, right? I mean, the issue has been continuing to plague Republicans.

3:52And like I mentioned, Speaker Johnson was like, you know what, just everyone go home. So tell me what happened in Congress this week. So your listeners probably heard that, you know, Mike Johnson had to send members of Congress home just a day early. They didn't totally stop legislating or I should say business of Congress because there were still hearings. But largely they had to go home a little early because they didn't want to deal with the fallback. essentially. What's happening right now in committees, Democrats are, I guess, exploiting the idea of Epstein or the Republican base being really mad about Epstein.

4:32So they're putting forward these amendments and all kind of motions that essentially force Republicans to vote either in favor or against releasing the files. And we saw this on Tuesday. Representative Tim Burchett from Tennessee, he's a lawmaker, a Republican lawmaker from Tennessee, introduced a measure to investigate or subpoena, I should say, Ghislaine Maxwell. And that passed. So it kind of put a lot of Republicans sort of on the record because it passed unanimously. I guess the most exciting or interesting one, was a Democrat from Pennsylvania, Summer Lee, in an oversight subcommittee. She introduced a motion to force DOJ to release the files.

5:25So it put a lot of pressure on members who are big allies of Donald Trump, like Nancy Mates from South Carolina, Scott Perry, who's in sort of a swingy district in Pennsylvania, and Brian Jack, who used to be his political director. So all of them had to go on the record and say, yeah, release the files. Yeah. And I just think all of this is just a sign that it is refused to go away. And, you know, it's probably not going to go away anytime in the immediate future. So Donald Trump is leaving for Scotland today and a bunch of reporters hang out outside the White House to watch his helicopter take off as it goes off to Air Force One.

6:08And one of the first questions he got, one of the first ones, was about Ghislaine Maxwell, what he thought about the DOJ interviewing her and whether he was going to pardon or commute her sentence. His answer was not about it at all. And people should really focus on how well the country is doing, or they should focus on the fact that Barack Hussein Obama led a coup. You know, he wants people to think about something, anything else. And it's just not going away. And all of this stuff that's happening at the Capitol, you know, shows that like, oh, and we're going to have more of this and a steady drip of this going forward.

6:42And to Cleve's point, the entire Congress is going home for five weeks on a summer recess. Guess what they're going to get calls on? I was tuned into a tele-town hall the other day with Eli Crane. An Epstein-related call came up. It was the second call of the tele-town halls. And reminding Eli Crane, where is he from? Arizona. Arizona. He's a Republican from Arizona. He is, yes. And what did they ask? What did the voter ask of Representative Crane? And did they have pitchforks? They wanted to know where he stands on the issue. Now, Crane has been vocal about this ever since he ran for Congress.

7:16So he's one of those people who has signed on to that legislation that basically is going to force a vote on the floor to release the files. So he was, you know, I guess he was prepared. But there are a lot of people that just don't want to have this conversation, a lot of Republicans, and they're just going to be forced to do it while they're home five weeks. Instead of pushing that bill that they just passed, they're going to be answering questions on Epstein. So that's so interesting because this is maybe, and Cleve kind of alluded to this, like maybe for the first time since Trump appeared on the political stage, like he's facing real opposition from within the party.

7:51And this isn't just voters. This is also from like members of Congress that are like not necessarily standing with him on this. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to botch this quote, but Trump said very famously, you know, I could shoot somebody on Madison Avenue or whatever, Fifth Avenue and get away with it. Like, you know, he's called Teflon Don for a reason. It is because he wields tremendous power to influence his base. As one source that I talked to said, you know, an elite that goes for the common man. And this is the first time where for a lot of people, it is, in their view, Donald Trump being an elite who is protecting other elites.

8:31that he is not fully with them, that he's not, he's more interested in their opinion in protecting the self-interest of the rich, powerful, politically connected, famous people, as opposed to giving his followers what they want, which is transparency. But does it really, I mean, voters really care about this? Like, this is something that voters are focused on, you think, beyond just kind of the echo chambers that we kind of monitor? Look, I think the economy is always going to take a focal point here, right? But again, we have this current situation that is not going away, that happens to actually be unfurling because we have subpoenas that are coming along.

9:16And those subpoenas will probably take hold of them in about, I'd say, 30 days. So that is front and center. And some of these Republicans ran on the issue of transparency and specifically the Epstein files. So it's a little difficult to convince people that you're being transparent or honest with them about the economy when you can't deliver something as easy as the Epstein files, when And this is something that your base has been talking about for a while and something you as a Republican member of Congress convinced them that should be something to be revealed. Just one thing that I'll add to that very good point is that it is not something that is on the minds of all voters.

10:02If I call my mom, my mom doesn't know much about Jeff Epstein or whatever. Maybe she actually. Mom, are you listening? Like maybe she does. But it is on the mind of the most vocal voters, you know, the most the most the loudest members of the base, the people who show up to primaries, the people who who are going to show up to a town hall over the next little bit and who have been very, very solidly with Trump. And that matters. You know, if it pulls away independents or folks who vote for Democrats occasionally or whatever, that's one thing. But this is like shaking the fundamental bedrock of the MAGA movement.

10:39And that is very, very concerning to Trump and anybody that stands to benefit from Trump's power. This is so great, guys. We're going to take a break. And after the break, we'll talk about, like Cleve mentioned, all the ways that Trump has been trying to distract from the Epstein case. And those efforts have proved to be somewhat futile. We'll be right back. Thank you.

11:29And if we don't know the answer, we'll tell you. Ask the Post AI. Find it on WashingtonPost.com or in the app.

11:42Cleve, you mentioned Teflon Don. You know, everything that he gets hit with, it just bounces right off of him. He deflects or he just creates another crisis to distract and people move on and we write about the next crisis. He's been trying to do that. Walk me through like all the different ways that he's been trying to distract from Epstein this week. I know you mentioned a few of them at the top of the show, but let's let's tick through them. Yeah, sure. Let's start with Monday. On Monday, he or his administration, the White House, released files related to the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr.

12:16Just, you know, if you're a conspiracy theorist, as some of his followers are, you know, the trove of data about this assassination is just sort of catnip. dive into that. A day or two later, Tulsi Gabbard showed up in the briefing room. And of course, that's Tulsi Gabbard as in the former Democratic congresswoman, former Democratic presidential candidate, turned Trump's director of national intelligence. The evidence that we have found and that we have released directly point to President Obama leading the manufacturing of this intelligence assessment. There are multiple pieces. Last week, she had said that she had declassified what she said was evidence that Obama and Obama administration officials had, you know, participated in an effort to undermine Trump, you know, sort of underlying the last decade of what Trump sees as Trump related persecution.

13:08You know, and so she declassifies this this this tranche of data. She she makes a surprise appearance in the briefing room. I'm I'm there in the second row. While you were there. Yeah, trying to, you know, it's like she just, you know, it was unannounced. You know, it was just kind of like a surprise. You know, the blue door opens, Tulsi emerges, and then she kind of talks to us for 15 minutes about this stuff. And they had this very interesting graphic that I can't get out of my head. Because it's like, have you ever seen a movie where there's like the red yarn connecting this picture? And, you know, Obama's circled in red ink.

13:46It's like the bedroom of a conspiracy theorist. Yeah, exactly. but like produced by the White House and put up in the White House briefing room for everybody to see. And it was, to me, you know, a professional skeptic, right? It just had, you know, all of the makings of like, oh, you're interested in a conspiracy. Look, look, we got we got one right here. And there's a handy dandy graphic to go to go with it. And then Trump has also sort of bolstered or intensified his fight with the Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell. He took a historic visit for president to, you know, two minutes away to the Fed to talk about the cost overruns and to sort of demand but not demand that Powell lower interest rates.

14:32So it's just like shiny object over here, something interesting over here. You know, wouldn't you like to pay less for your home mortgage or something like that? Unclear whether it's working. Yeah. I mean, he also like tried to stoke some culture wars and saying that the Washington commanders, the football team here in Washington needed to change its name back to the Redskins. He's just trying everything to get his base like riled up about all these old greatest hits. Right. Yeah. And, you know, I'm a professional news person. So, like, I know that news cycles come and they go and there will be some controversy.

15:04We may not be talking about the same thing. If we're talking about the same thing on Post Reports a month from now, you know, it would be a very, very, you know, interesting turn of events. But the interesting thing is that Trump is using the bully pulpit, the power of the presidency and all of that stuff to try to turn the page and that he's just been, you know, unsuccessful. He's no longer like Teflon Don, so to speak. He's like, I don't know, like old rusted cast iron pot that eggs stick to Don. I got to I got to work on that. Yeah, a little bit. It's good, though. It's good. I'll try. I mean, the claim is that Obama was staging some coup and was, you know, tried to connect Russia to Trump's campaign in 2016 in order to undermine him and undermine his presidency.

15:49And they're saying that if, you know, if those allegations are true, that they would be criminal, that Obama and his aides and associates should be, you know, investigated for a crime if they tried to do this. I mean, are they, is Gabbard, is DOJ, are they really going to now be like investigating President Obama for like committing a crime? Yeah, it's a lot to unpack. And that's part of the reason why they're hoping that it's a welcome distraction because it is a lot to unpack. Gabbard has said that she has referred this aspects of the declassified information to the Justice Department for an investigation.

16:28She was asked directly whether she thinks Obama committed, you know, committed a crime, committed treason and should be prosecuted and all of that stuff. She she deflected or deferred a little bit. But the implication is that, you know, that's that's what she wants. That's what Trump wants and all of that stuff. Now, whether that can happen or not, whether, you know, we went through this with Trump, whether he is whether he as a former president or a president can be prosecuted. and the Supreme Court decision that shields executive, you know, things that happened while the president was president and all that stuff.

17:00So, like, it's sort of a far off chance based on what we know so far. But, you know, if you look at it as like I do as a professional skeptic, if you look at the primary arc, is it is it to get Obama to do 20 years in prison or is it to, you know, change the subject, you know, in this day and age? And, you know, we should say that Obama has come out and said exactly that. He said, you know, look, this is, you know, kind of a lowbrow effort at changing the subject during a time when Trump is facing intense political heat. It occurs to me that like, obviously, the Russia stuff from 2016 has been well litigated, well investigated by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress.

17:44Republicans, including now Secretary of State Marco Rubio, were kind of all in agreement that, yes, Russia did conspire to help Trump. I mean, maybe they didn't collude together, but that they were doing things during 2016 to try and make sure that Hillary Clinton didn't win. So are these efforts by Trump, like are Republicans latching onto these as well? Are you hearing from Republicans in Congress who are like, oh, yeah, we better go back and investigate Obama? Actually, no, which is why I was surprised that they made such an effort. Members in the hall are not talking about it because I think they understand that the last thing they want to do is relitigate something from 2016.

18:24It doesn't help them in the midterms. It doesn't. It distracts people from, again, this one big, beautiful bill. There's a reason why members rushed to pass this thing in the first six months of the presidency. So they can tell, you know, how they are finally cracking through and government is working under a Trump administration. So that to me was just a welcome. I haven't heard a single member talk about that, to be honest with you. So interesting. That's so interesting. So it's like it's not working almost on any level. No, it's not. I'll be interested to hear if their constituents are talking about any report that Tulsi Gabbard released.

19:03What's so interesting, and, you know, we've alluded to this throughout this conversation, is that, you know, Trump has prided himself on how loyal the MAGA base is to him, both his supporters and those in Congress. I mean, they've overlooked any number of things from, you know, more than two dozen accusations of sexual misconduct. Felony convictions. Felony convictions. The January 6th attack on the Capitol. Like, they've made excuses for him time and time again. And now with this Epstein case, you know, there is a thought, particularly emanating on the left, that, like, Trump is going to be implicated in these files.

19:35We know he's named in the files. We don't know what that means. We're not saying that he was involved in the crimes that Jeffrey Epstein took part in, but that he is associated with Epstein. He partied with him. He was a good friend of his for a time. Like, how is MAGA responding to the idea that pushing this, like, could ultimately, like, harm Trump? They're just in a really tight position right now because it's just the last thing they want to be talking about. People say, well, they were friends. That is one argument I've heard from Republicans. It's widely known that he was friends. There's another weird thing that's coming out.

20:13Members of Congress are saying, but don't you think the DOJ would have, you know, exposed this before if he was remotely involved in anything? That's sort of a talking point I've heard on the last days before members went home. But it's kind of a mixed bag. And again, it has it's unsettled people because many members of Congress can't believe that this is the thing that is actually making their base revolt. Well, and I've talked to a lot of Trump supporters over the year, like a lot of Trump supporters. You're out in the country a lot. Yeah, and it's very illustrative because I think that, you know, as difficult as this can be to imagine, a lot of Trump supporters believe that, you know, even though Donald Trump was born rich and got richer, you know, New York, you know, real estate financier, the most powerful person in the world, a lot of people feel like Trump is one of us.

21:09Like like one of them, you know, he's he is he is like us, like minded for us. He is an elite, but he is not he's not what he's going to drain the swamp. He's not a part of the swamp. And one of the things that this controversy gets to the heart of is that that sort of image and all of the drip drip stuff that's coming out that Epstein has attended Trump's Trump's wedding and the pictures of them sort of yucking it up and sharing private jokes. coupled with, you know, Trump's seeming unwillingness to release information about this just gets at the heart of that argument that a lot of MAGA supporters have internalized, that Trump is one of them, but he is for us.

21:52Now, for a lot of them, or at least for a vocal, a very vocal minority, he seems like, you know, one of the elites who is now acting like an elite. And, you know, the fallout from that could be cataclysmic. I don't want to be apocalyptic or whatever, but like the fallout from that, that sea change of, of Donald Trump is just another rich guy, politician, powerful person, as opposed to somebody that's like, that is like me. He's like an everyman. Yeah. And how, how Trump tries to keep that image up and to stoke that image. And, and, you know, I am an everyman, even though I, you know, I have gold toilets or, or whatever.

22:30It is something that exists. And that is, that is, that you can see. And that may be collapsing.

22:40Guys, this was a great conversation. Thank you so much. We'll see if we're still talking about Epstein on next week's Politics Roundtable, but we'll leave it there. Cleve, Kadia, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Cleve Woodson is a White House reporter for The Post. Kadia Goba covers Congress for The Post. That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by Arjun Singh. It was edited by Peter Bresnan. It was mixed by Sean Carter. Have a great weekend. And remember, if you love the show, help other people discover it by leaving a rating on Spotify or rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

23:19Our team includes Maggie Penman, Rina Flores, Ted Muldoon, Alana Gordon, Ariel Plotnick, Renny Cernovsky, Sabby Robinson, Emma Talcoff, Laura Benchoff, Thomas Liu, Renita Jablonski, and Tadeo Ruiz-Sandoval. I'm Cole Bichowitz. We'll be back Monday with more stories from The Washington Post.

24:19And if we don't know the answer, we'll tell you. Ask the Post AI. Find it on WashingtonPost.com or in the app.