Trump’s “Epstein files” problem

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0:39Tonight, growing fallout over the Trump administration effectively closing the case of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. There has been a tremendous backlash among some of the president's MAGA supporters about the DOJ's decision not to release the Jeffrey Epstein files.

0:59Epstein was a well-connected financial tycoon. He was charged with child sex trafficking back in 2019. He then died by suicide in jail before his trial. The circumstances of his death and crime spurred fringe conspiracy theories, mostly on the far right. Some believe Epstein was actually murdered as part of a cover-up. They also accused the so-called deep state of hiding information about Epstein's rich and powerful friends, who they say may have also had sex with minors. Trump did nothing to tamp down the far right's Epstein fixation during his re-election campaign. He even hinted he might release secret government documents that his supporters hoped would validate their conspiracy theories.

1:39But recently, his Justice Department said there's nothing more to reveal. Trump now wants his base to move on. At a cabinet meeting last week, he said this to reporters. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. Are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable. From the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Colby Ikowitz. It's Tuesday, July 15th. Today, how the Trump administration's efforts to close the book on Epstein has enraged his base. We talk with White House reporter Natalie Allison about why this has MAGA loyalists so upset and what it means for the future of Trump's movement.

2:29Natalie, hi. Thanks for being here. Hi, Colby. Thanks for having me. Okay, so Natalie, for those of us who might need a little bit of a refresher, who was Jeffrey Epstein? He was a banker-turned-financial consultant, a New York, Palm Beach guy who had properties in both places and became very wealthy. This was after starting his career essentially as a math teacher and then working his way into finance. He had that in common with Donald Trump. He lived in both places, New York and Florida, owned property in both places, and essentially was able to embed himself in the social circles of the most powerful, most famous, most wealthy people who lived in the United States, essentially.

3:08And on top of that, he racked up a number of acquaintances who happened to be world leaders. And this was somebody who just happened to be really well-connected and also a criminal. And what were his crimes? Well, it first started with state charges on child prostitution solicitation in Florida in 2008. And he pleaded guilty, had a plea deal, became a registered sex offender. And after that, he, you know, was known as someone who had these charges against him. But there was a lot of concern that the scope of his crimes had never fully been investigated or that he hadn't been held accountable. And that changed in 2019 when he faced federal charges on sex trafficking.

3:53Good morning. I'm Jeff Berman, United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York. Today, we announce the unsealing of sex trafficking charges against Jeffrey Epstein. The charges allege that Epstein sexually abused young girls by enticing them to engage in sex acts for money. This was a sweeping prosecution. It spanned alleged crimes in Florida and New York City. There were dozens of victims, some as young as 14 years old. And according to the prosecutor's office, quote, Epstein allegedly worked with several employees and associates to ensure that he had a steady supply of minor victims to abuse.

4:34So that's what the prosecutor's office said about it. some people thought that this prosecution was overdue because accounts of this type of activity had been known since his earlier plea deal. And then what happened after those charges were brought in 2019? He was jailed. He was awaiting trial on those charges when about a month later, he died. And the official ruling was that he committed suicide in his prison cell. But it set off years of questions from people largely on the right, but really across the spectrum in some cases about whether he happened to be murdered. And if he were murdered, what would have motivated that and who was trying to cover up for the network that they say Jeffrey Epstein was sort of overseeing with other world leaders who they claim could have also been child sex predators.

5:26So you mentioned that, you know, Epstein reportedly died by suicide in jail, but that launched all of these conspiracy theories. Let's talk a little bit more about that, like why people thought that he may have in fact been murdered in jail and that this was part of some massive cover-up to keep him quiet. Well, you know, as we discussed, there were a number of questions and theories surrounding Epstein in the years leading up to the federal case against him. He had a lot of money. He had a lot of connections to power. Among the people known to be associates of Epstein was a former Israeli prime minister, former President Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, of course, and a number of actors and academics.

6:12And he had a private plane. And on that private plane, we know there were some powerful people. And it fueled a lot of conspiracy theories about where they were going and what activities they would have been doing together. And a number of them, Trump included, would say, well, we didn't really know him that well. I didn't know Epstein that well. And we've heard that from people like Trump and Bill Clinton as well, another former president who we know had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and subsequently tried to downplay it. But the fact that, you know, it's documented that he spent time with these people has really fueled these conspiracy theories about those people also having participated in illegal activities involving children with Epstein.

6:51And the fact that for years he had gone unpunished for those allegations against him and it took years for the federal government to start to hold him accountable really set off a wave of outrage, particularly on the right after he died. And I remember, you know, you would see at events like political events and stuff, people would write on posters, Epstein didn't kill himself and try to get in the back of camera shots. It was seen as this fairly French conspiracy theory, but something that really had become prevalent on the right and libertarian circles, certainly with kind of like the male oriented podcaster scene.

7:31And his death happened towards the end of Trump's first term. Under Biden's term, there was a lot of pressure on the Biden administration to answer questions about what really happened with him. And the fact that they didn't produce something that was salacious or that answered their questions made everyone think that the Biden administration was covering up for Epstein to protect other Democrats or potentially Biden himself. And that, you know, really made them think these people who subscribe to these conspiracy theories that if Donald Trump gets back in office, we'll finally get the answers that we want.

8:05So you mentioned that Trump and Epstein, they knew each other. But what do we know about the nature of that relationship? The Washington Post has reported over the years that Trump and Epstein had a relationship in the late 80s and then the 90s and into the early 2000s. They ran in the same circles. They went to parties together. Back in 2002, Trump told New York Magazine that, quote, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. That's what Trump said. So back then, they were on friendly terms.

8:41Right. So we know they were friends in the past, but Trump hasn't really done anything to debunk these conspiracy theories. I mean, how has he talked about it? I think it's important to note that Trump himself was not someone who liked to bring up these conspiracy theories. He was surrounded by a number of people in MAGA who did, who talked about this, who said they wanted to get answers, who were really passionate about getting to the bottom of this. Donald Trump was someone who merely tolerated these conspiracy theories and he didn't do anything to stop them. You know, he would make comments at times like, yeah, maybe we should get more answers on if he really did kill himself.

9:20Or, you know, if I'm in office, I think we could do more to be transparent about this death. But he was asked specifically about this last year on the campaign trail in a Fox News interview conducted by Rachel Campos-Duffy, the wife of his now transportation secretary. And she was going on a list of other events in history, other deaths that have, you know, sparked conspiracy theories. JFK is killing and MLK is killing. So if you were president, would you declassify, you can answer yes or no to this. Would you declassify the 9-11 files? Yeah. Would you declassify JFK files? Yeah. Asking if he would agree to release information and FBI files on these cases.

10:03And he was like, yes, yes, 9-11, yes. And then when the interviewer got to Epstein, he initially said yes. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, yeah, I would. And then he started to walk it back. All right, I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. He said, well, you know, actually that case is a little bit different because there could be a lot of phony stuff in those files that, you know, could really hurt some people. And he said, you know, he was really eager to release some of these other files, but the Epstein files, basically saying it could be more hassle than it's worth.

10:44Yeah, I don't know about Epstein so much as I do the others. Certainly about the way he died, it would be interesting to find out what happened there. That didn't get tons and tons of attention at the time. And of course, Trump went on to appoint people to the Department of Justice and to the FBI, who also had fanned the flames of these conspiracy theories. People like Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director. He's brought Epstein up on his own podcast, The Dan Bongino Show. I don't know how Jeffrey Epstein died. I'm not going to sit here and tell you. All I can tell you is it's awfully suspicious how that happened.

11:18There's also Kash Patel, who is now Trump's FBI director. He went on a conservative podcast hosted by Benny Johnson, The Benny Show, and he called for the Epstein files to be released. Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are. We can't even get basic documents out. This is why America hates Congress. They had spent years leading up to being put in office saying that the government was covering up what had happened with Epstein and his associates and that someone needed to expose it and that in office they would do that. And they got into office and then the Trump administration says they are going to be looking at the FBI's Epstein files again.

11:59They're going to see what was found out about it and that they would report back on what they found. And so they do this and they look back through everything. And what do they find? Well, they developed a memo that they released on a Sunday night recently. They leaked it to Axios and then the next day they released it publicly. A memo that essentially said, we do believe that Epstein killed himself in jail and that we don't have any other information that is relevant to this that we're going to release. Essentially, they said case closed, move on. There's nothing to see here. But Natalie, didn't Attorney General Pam Bondi, wasn't she talking about releasing a client list?

12:41There was this, you know, this theory that there's a list out there of people who paid Epstein to arrange for them to have sex with underage girls. I mean, whatever happened with that? Yes. So they said that there was not a client list that they could release. And Pam Bondi has since really been pressed on that because she went on TV on Fox News and said that there was such a list that was sitting on her desk waiting for her to review it. It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. And she went back and the White House Press Secretary, Caroline Levin, went back and said, well, what the attorney general really meant was just that she was reviewing all of the Epstein files and she wasn't specifically talking about a client list.

13:23Yes, she was saying the entirety of all of the paperwork, all of the paper in relation to Jeffrey Epstein's crimes. That's what the attorney general was referring to, and I'll let her speak for that. But again, when it comes to the FBI and the Department of Justice, they are more than committed to ensuring that bad people are put behind bars.

13:45After the break, how the Trump administration's decision to not release any documents around Jeffrey Epstein is reverberating through his MAGA base. We'll be right back.

14:23We'll be right back. can pick up the latest precision tech with ease. You know it, and fans ready to add John Deere certified pre-owned equipment and more options to their lineup can shop at machinefinder.com. Booyah! When it comes to the big questions, who you ask matters. From breaking news to politics that impact your life, to advice you can trust. Get answers you don't have to question with Ask the Post AI. trained exclusively on post journalism with clear sourcing. And if we don't know the answer, we'll tell you. Ask the Post AI. Find it on WashingtonPost.com or in the app. So Natalie, Trump's base, MAGA supporters, you know, they were waiting for the truth about Epstein to come out, that the Trump White House was going to finally reveal the truth about Epstein.

15:19So how have they taken the news that there is no more information to come out? The Trump base has been outraged over it, more so than any other issue that maybe at times they haven't fully agreed with. And they're asking for more. They're saying that, you know, the people in charge here let them believe for a long time that there would be more and that it doesn't make sense that now they aren't releasing more. And this is coming from some like prominent right wing figures, right, who typically do not criticize the president and his administration. And they have taken to now criticizing them and thinking that they're maybe hiding the truth.

15:57Yeah, that's right. I spent the weekend in Tampa at the Turning Point USA gathering, which is Charlie Kirk's youth conservative organization. And these are the kind of gatherings where typically there's no questions asked. Everything Trump does is something that the whole room is going to cheer about. And I watched as people booed the Trump administration's handling of Epstein. How many of you are satisfied? You can clap. Satisfied with the results of the Epstein investigation. Clap.

16:32And that's not the kind of response you're usually going to get from people in MAGA, from Trump's most loyal supporters. But we heard speaker after speaker from stage this weekend say that this isn't going to cut it and the president doesn't seem to be listening to his base on this issue. When you were down in Tampa talking to people, what is the conspiracy? Like what do they think? You know, they thought the Biden administration was hiding something. Now they think the Trump administration is hiding something too. What do they think they're hiding? Well, certainly the people in Trump's space aren't claiming that Trump himself is implicated in it.

17:10They are sort of dancing around that idea. But they do think that Trump and his administration might be covering up for other people in power, other wealthy people who they believe are part of the so-called deep state. The reason that this issue is so salient with a number of his supporters is because they say it doesn't just represent a case with a child sex predator, but it represents who is actually running the government. And they believed that putting Trump in power would expose nefarious actors who were pulling strings to do favors for themselves at the expense of the people. And that by not exposing this, it raises questions about what else the Trump administration could be covering up.

17:54And so, you know, to outsiders, that might sound like a really crazy conspiracy theory. But this case does get at the heart of what a lot of people in the MAGA movement believed they would get out of Donald Trump. Someone going in, draining the swamp, exposing the deep state. And then now they're left to question whether Trump is in fact doing that.

18:16So, you know, we talk about this roiling Trump's base. I can't imagine that Trump is happy that this has kind of taken over the news cycle, that everyone is now focused on this and accusing his administration of a massive, some kind of cover up. How is Trump responding? Yeah, the president is really frustrated by this. It's not an issue that really ever animated him. He went along with it and he tolerated it. And you could say even fanned the flames of this conspiracy theory by making one off comments about it. But this isn't something that he ever believed was really important. And he has said for the last week straight, guys, we need to move on.

18:58This is just not something that's worth your time. Over the weekend, he made a post on his Truth Social app saying, basically, what's going on with my guys and gals in MAGA? You know, why are you all threatening to blow up the movement over this? And the White House has downplayed how much of a problem they think this is. They have noted that when you go talk to a group of voters about the issues that really matter to them and that they're going to vote in elections on Jeffrey Epstein doesn't come up. It's maybe like, you know, number 200. I think that's what one of the White House advisors told me the other day about this.

19:36So they realize that a really loud group of people online are talking about this, but they are talking that up to being a vocal but very small minority. And they do think that this will blow over despite the eruption within MAGA on it. And it's also creating strife inside the Department of Justice, right? Because there's some disagreement within the administration over the handling of the Epstein files. So what has that fallout been like? Yeah, well, Dan Bongino, the deputy FBI director, did not come to work on Friday. And he is really seen in all of this as the person who is most frustrated with Attorney General Pam Bondi and her handling of this whole situation.

20:18There's a lot of finger pointing, you know. The president had praised Dan Bongino and Kash Patel earlier in the week. And it seemed like Bongino and Patel were just going to like accept the administration's decision to back away from this. And then the MAGA outcry happened and Bongino was sort of the one who stuck his neck out and privately began to indicate that he actually wasn't OK with the way this was going and he wasn't OK with the eruption from the base. And, you know, this is an issue that they needed to be more transparent on. Meanwhile, Pam Bondi and her allies are pointing the finger back saying, hey, you went along with this memo.

20:59You knew about it. And so there is a lot of internal fighting at the DOJ right now. Most recently, though, you know, as of Sunday evening, the president was asked about if Bongino was in fact going to leave the DOJ, as he had privately indicated to some people. And the president said he had just talked to him and everything seemed to be OK. So, you know, if you take that as a sign that he seems to have everything managed, maybe they have figured out some way for the three of them, Bongino, Patel and Bondi, to all work well together. A number of people in MAGA, though, aren't convinced and they do think that somebody's going to have to leave over this.

21:35Yes.

21:40And one thing I've also noticed, Natalie, is that like over the weekend, you have the MAGA people really, really upset that the Trump administration isn't going to release more information about Epstein. But then you have, you know, the anti-Trump people that are going hard on this idea that there's a reason why Pam Bundy suddenly doesn't want to release any more information about Epstein and that they must be hiding something. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, on top of the MAGA supporters conspiracy theories on the left and on the anti-Trump side, we are seeing them perpetuating their own conspiracy theory, really, which is claiming that, well, Donald Trump must be implicated in these files.

22:21And that's the reason that the White House is saying move along. Nothing to see here. The White House's response to that is, well, if there was something incriminating on the president in there, why wouldn't Biden have released it? Why wouldn't it have come out before now? And so, yes, there is there's a lot of finger pointing here, but the left is trying to at least use this news cycle to go after Trump in whichever way they can. Yeah. I mean, over the weekend, I kept seeing like so much recycling of the old videos and photos of Trump with Epstein and Trump's old quotes about Epstein. I mean, a lot of that was coming from the left over the weekend.

22:56Yeah. But it's not just Epstein that seems to be driving this consternation within the MAGA base, which is something that Democrats seem quite gleeful about. But there have been other headlines recently about MAGA being unhappy with Trump's policies. So what are those other riffs right now? Yeah, the timing of this announcement by the Department of Justice that there really isn't any more they're going to say on it. It's interesting because it comes at a time when the White House already was dealing with a little bit of tension within the base on issues like immigration. Some in MAGA have been upset that the president has repeatedly suggested that he's going to offer carve-outs for some workers who are in the country illegally because their industries rely on their labor, specifically agriculture and hospitality industries.

23:40The president has gotten an earful from donors and business leaders in those industries. And that has gone over really poorly with a number of people who have championed this idea of Trump enacting a mass deportation program, the most historic one in history. If you're here illegally, you have to go, period. and they feel like the president is suddenly walking that back and making exceptions for certain industries and the wealthy. And then on the other hand, you have some heartburn over the president saying he wants to continue sending weapons to Ukraine. And a number of people in the movement say that this goes against Trump's idea of America first and not getting involved in foreign wars.

24:26And then on top of that, you have others in the movement who are still a little upset But still over Trump deciding to strike Iran and they had spent really a week solid putting out these hair on fire messages that if the United States got involved in Israel's conflict with Iran, it would immediately lead to World War III and boots on the ground for the United States. And obviously those things haven't happened. So a number of people in MAGA have backed off. But the context here is that they've sort of had a series of issues that they feel like they've tried to raise their voice on to express that they didn't agree with the approach Trump was taking.

25:03And they felt like, you know, their opinion was not heeded by the White House. And this Epstein situation is really the culmination of all that. And Natalie, as someone who's covered Trump and MAGA for such a long time, like what is the future of the movement now? Like where does it go from here? Well, I don't think that the Jeffrey Epstein heartburn is the end of the MAGA movement. But what we know from the last decade that Trump has been the leading figure in U.S. politics is that he has a really resilient base. He returned to office after a period in political exile. And, you know, he's very resilient.