Claude Code Your Next Launch Like A Vivun PMM

27:30So back to like, you know, actually, I guess the next step would be like building the cloud project. And I just want to make sure that I have like the documents that I should have in the cloud projects, right? You had the manifesto, which was like the deep research on like the product and the market and the company and why it all fits so well together and why now. And then I'm not sure if this was in the manifesto or if it's in the persona doc, but then you had like, you talked about the persona doc and he talked about like very deep research, like around emotional benefits and functional benefits.

28:02but then also scenarios where you win and use cases where you win and all of that good stuff. And then you also had like a tone of voice document, like a writing style document, which was helpful. You had the narrative that your CMO already got with all the executives in the room. Those are the four that I could think of. Is there anything else that should go into this Claude project? No, those are the right ones. And I don't want to take us on a tangent, but you're reminding me of something really important with this persona research. Like what's great is like in this day, Persona Research is no longer like a vanity project.

28:38What's amazing is that I can take 20 documents of transcripts of conversations and like spreadsheets that I get from user testing and like all the downloads from GetWise and I can throw them all in to a separate project and be like, okay, tell me all about sellers. Like I no longer have to like sit there late at night, like taking notes off of like, I mean, I don't know what people did like 15, but it's like everything just comes together and gives me like the full picture. And that to me is great because what I'm doing now is I'm coming with gifts to my product team. That's what's so funny about product marketing is like one of the core things that we need to do as a company is be giving market signal to the product team, right?

29:24And so now we can do it in this like really great way. So, but you laid it all out. Like it's the messaging framework. It's the persona doc. It's the copy guideline. These are all the big players in my cloud project. And then what I'm doing is, because I'm always nervous about hallucinations or something, is I'm like taking my persona research and I'm saying, okay, how's my messaging framework? Like, are we still right on? Are we still talking the right language? And so everything's getting like these like feedback loops that I'm doing. I'm always kind of doing like a BS test on everything, like making sure everything's like still copacetic.

30:01I love that. Question about the feedback loops. Is that purely human or do you have AI help you or assist with the feedback loops? Well, it's funny. I'll do things like I'll take my project and I'll take a whole bunch of research and I'll be like, here's a bunch of research. What do you think about the messaging framework? And I'll kind of get like a summary back. And then I'll look at the summary and I'll get to kind of critique it and judge it, right? And I'll be like, actually, that's okay. Okay, give me a couple line items to change there. And so there is that discerning eye. And it makes me very grateful to be at this stage in my career where I've got some years of experience in this field and I can sort of see how things are feeling and I can see where I've got my areas of drift.

30:48The tools aren't perfect either. Claude's got a little bit of drift. And so kind of working together and kind of finding that spot. But I think part of what makes it all work, and I think why we're so lucky if you've got a little bit of experience is like that you can kind of see that space of where to fix things and where to let things go. And, you know, it's the writer and then you get to be the editor, right? Right. Absolutely. And I love that you called out the experience that's required to have that discerning eye when you're critiquing the AI output. And it's so valuable. I say that to all junior PMMs or PMMs who are just making, or if you're making a career pivot or whatever, to make sure that you build the craft and then use AI to 10x your value.

31:38But you have to have the experience so you know what good looks like. So that when Claude or ChatGPT, whoever, like whatever AI tool of choice, gives you a deliverable or an output, you can say like, no, not good enough. No, that's not right. That's missing X, Y, Z. So I totally agree with that. Okay. So let's get back to our playbook. So I have the Cloud Project. It's built with all of those core documents. What do I do now? I can just use it for whatever kind of like deliverables I want to use. Like give me some examples of like how you used your cloud project to get some deliverables for this big shift for the company's narrative.

32:21Yeah, absolutely. So before I was able to really go use it, I had to get all that stakeholder approval. So what I did was I took this framework, and I threw it into make me a deck, like make me a deck that argues for how important this was. And let me get executive sign off from everybody, right? So it's so important to get that way in from the different folks, like from the product team? Like, are the claims accurate? From the sales team, like, does this match how my conversations are going? Like from leadership, does this reflect our strategy? And then from the design team too, of like, can we really express this visually?

32:58I own the framework, but it's so important that everyone's bought in, right? You've got to have that buy-in. And so that meeting went really well. I really focused on the sort of that image of like ducks kind of flying in formation and how important that is. And I'm such a big believer that a good company has a message at a differentiated value, but a great company has the ability to make everybody fly in the same formation. That's that extra thing. And what I get excited about is I feel like it's never been easier to have that formation because we've got these guardrails that we're working with and these tools that kind of have that little bit of smarts to them.

33:41I mean, they're getting better all the time, but like, it's so exciting to be able to, you know, 3x my work with something like Claude. And, you know, I'm definitely not a person who is building like autonomous agents or things that are just like going out and doing work. I really do have to be involved. And when I write a blog using these tools, I'm, you know, giving my thought leadership to the tool, tweaking, making sure it is what I want it to be. But back to your question, give me some examples of what we do. You know, I can go into an analyst conversation and say, hey, I'm going to be talking to an analyst at Forrester.

34:16I want to be really clear about what we do with them, to them. And I want to like get their advice. And I want to see how they see the market. But I want to, you know, really clearly represent what we are and get feedback back from them. And that's the kind of work that would take you all day. and instead it takes you 15, 20 minutes because of course I go back and forth a couple of times. But then another amazing thing about the research is I can write a blog on why the moment is so important. But what I love is what's better about that, what Google and the LLMs wanna see is they wanna see all the research I've done informing that opinion on our blog.

34:56And so of course all of this has started with Claude and like I get a first draft, I read it, I make changes. So we're kind of like going back and forth, new draft, new draft. When I get it to a pretty good point, then I give it an edit. But I love that it's like always sort of running off the DNA of who we are, how we talk, what our message is. It's like, that's the starting point. Sort of a side tangent. The product that we built is for sellers on the call. Of course, it's built on AI. And one of the big things we built was this sales reasoning model. And what this is doing is something that we talk about a lot is that it's helping sellers avoid hallucinations because it's keeping you away from like the hops that happen when you are too far from the source material, right?

35:43When you kind of go too far down the line and they all do it. And so what's amazing about this reasoning model that we built into our product is that it's really keeping those hallucinations at bay. And I think I'm doing a little bit of the same thing in a marketing angle by always having this framework as my starting point for everything I do. Yeah, it's keeping everything grounded. And I love the visual that you explained when you went into that stakeholder meeting of ducks flying together synchronously. Yeah, it's a strong visual. And it's one that, you know, I would say everyone, every millennial or 90s kid who remembers mighty ducks.

36:20That's exactly where my brain went to. But it's such a strong, spirited rallying the team, getting everybody on board. I imagine that was a helpful anecdote as you're trying to explain your thinking. And you mentioned, I really appreciate too, that you brought in the reasons why you think that meeting went so well. And a lot of that was because you did the foundational work in the manifesto and you were just able to do it quicker with this cloud project that you built. So now coming back to, and I also appreciate the examples that you gave too, I can attest like prepping for like a Gartner analyst call can take a long time.

37:08So brilliant use of your cloud project. Okay, so coming back to our playbook, I have the Cloud Project. Now you mentioned the feedback loops. Okay, so I build out the deck for all the things that I want to do with this big narrative and the shift for the company. I get buy-in from all of my stakeholders and the executives. Is that kind of the end of the story? Now I just, is it launch time? I mean, what do I do next? Yeah. So kind of what's happening next is, yeah, you've got this framework, the team loves it. And now like it's going into action. So we're putting it into our booth messaging because we're doing a ton of events the next couple months.

37:53We're putting it into our website because we just launched that whole website. So like, for example, on the website, those pages that are really tough, right? Where it's like, hey, we need a page talking to sellers. We need a page talking to sales managers. We need a page comparing us to Gong, comparing us to Agent Force. All those things become so much easier with Claude when I can go find like a comparison pages I love, right? Because there's so many great examples out there. We all follow the great product marketing emails and stuff. And sometimes they give you incredible comparison pages. So you go get these comparison pages.

38:31You download that. You throw that into your project. And you just say, I want a comparison page for hero. And boom. And it's like, cool. I have a first draft. Like, because it knows who I am and it knows what I want to get to, right? It's got the A and the Z, which is so cool. So that's a really great example of like how to use this kind of thing. Isn't all these pages. And then, but also we're going out, we're doing billboards and we're doing stuff like that. And so that's where the research thing comes back in because I can come up with a billboard idea. And I think something that we're probably going to talk about in a little bit is one of the pieces where humans are still very important in what we're doing.

39:12And that's a big one. When it comes to creative ideas, I had to come up with a billboards completely myself. Like AI is not going to come up with five perfect words to put on a billboard. Like that's the human touch. They don't get puns and pop culture and the visceral reactions that humans have. They don't get those things. But they can help you write a blog on whether you should build an AI sales teammate or buy one, right? And they can sort of help you with like long form content. And you still need to apply a flavor to that. But that's what's interesting, I think. That's kind of that back and forth difference.

39:58I totally agree. Yes, having the human touch on copy editing and especially on short form copy. To your point, AI is really good at hacking systems. And I don't mean that in a creepy way. I mean that in knowing how to put together a blog to optimize for SEO, AEO, et cetera. That is something that I think AI would be really good in assisting you with. but knowing the exact words to put on a billboard that you're not going to have tracking metrics on that. Like there's not, I mean, maybe you'd put up like a, if you did something really crazy, you know, maybe there'd be a way to like, you know, with a QR code or something, not saying you'd ever do that.

40:43But generally speaking, very hard to track the, you know, outputs of a billboard. So I think things that are measurable, trackable with a digital footprint, those are things that AI is going to be like probably better able to assist you with because at the end of the day, it's all like prediction models, right? So that's why I would lean heavier into for like more like the long form content. So it makes perfect sense. I have a quick question that I should have asked you earlier when you went into that meeting with the stakeholders. did you what you were presenting to them was it like the framework that you built with claude with specifically like the narrative that you were driving like what or was it just in general was it not really claude and the ai tools it was kind of like just the narrative and more about the story this was a pretty short deck this was like nine slides my first slide was really reminding the team that we had already aligned on a strategic narrative which is huge right come into the room and show, like, look, we all know where we're going.

41:51What a huge step that is. What a lucky step that I have to start with in a company. I have that. That's number one. Number two, I have an awesome CMO who has a huge product marketing background of his own. So kind of knows what good looks like with this. And then we have a team who's like willing to invest a product marketers like first month in doing this work. So those are huge. So it's just reminding them that like we're starting from the same spot. The next thing is kind of talking about some of the urgency. So what's funny about a deck like this is it's kind of like its own strategic narrative deck where I'm kind of talking about the threats in the world, right?

42:28And one of those threats is like how LLMs are going to define us and how we have to show up super consistently to make sure that we're showing up in the right way when people ask about us in LLMs. So that was something we didn't really talk about in this episode, but that's a huge one. And then getting into how... Ooh, I really love that one. Yeah, a positioning framework is how we are going to solve that problem. That's my third slide. My next slide is a one pager on what the framework is, where it's the market condition, who it's for, the situation we're solving, what our positioning is, what makes us different.

43:04Like, that's it. Just one page. Everyone stares at it. Everyone feels good about it. and then my next slide was kind of a comparison thing of what that looks like in practice and so it was a comparison slide a table i think tables are always great on a deck um but like a before and after kind of table where it's like what's the market doing now right most tools are recording your call gong record your call great what are we doing we're in the call with you right so it's like this sort of comparison thing about like what we're going after the, what's the status quo that we're really having to face when it comes to like how we talk about ourselves versus things like, like Gong.

43:48So the next one is kind of laying out how the different teams are going to use this framework, right? Like the executive staff invested in this. So how's it going to assimilate out to the team? And I sort of lay out how sales is going to use it, how the marketing team is using it, how the product team is going to be using it to kind of develop roadmap and features and all those things. And so that was kind of that thing I laid out earlier about, you know, the shared test of does it help a seller prepare, respond, or follow through when the moment is on, right? That's kind of like one of our big litmus tests.

44:20The next slide in this executive buy-in framework was, you know, how we keep the gap closed between between what the LLMs think we are and what we actually are. And so it was kind of laying out how we're going to do that, right? Where we're going to use this system, what the content is that we're going to build, how we're going to reinforce these things every quarter. It's kind of like a contract to the executive staff to show them that this is not just like a dog and pony show, right? This is not just like me doing work. Yeah. And it's like, I'm going to really show you how this sustains through the rest of the year.

44:58I'm always trying to be very mindful of the company's investment in me, right? I think that's huge. Because that's really what it is. This is kind of a weird analogy for you, but I'm a musician when I'm not working and I'm buying equipment and I'm trying equipment and I'm looking at those things as like, does this make me sound better? Does this make me perform better? And if it doesn't, I got to get rid of it. Right. And so I think of a company and I think of an e-staff is looking at every employee like that. Like I'm going to invest in this resource and I wanted to make this company grow, not just for them to just do work I'm paying for.

45:34And so, so it's important for me always to make sure that like this investment is being looked at as, as a sustained one. Um, and then the next slide. I really love the way that I really love the way that you articulated that with like the investment in the employee versus like feeling really transactional like i'm paying you for work to be done i love that i think that's really um a smart way for pmms to be thinking about how to talk about their work with their employers because it's not because that's what's funny about businesses is like you know back to my funny analogy it's like if i go buy a guitar pick that i don't like i'm gonna get rid of it uh and it's not personal it's like well well, it's just not working for the job that I'm trying to do.

46:19And so I think every employee at a company has to look at it that way. It's like, I'm pushing the business forward. I'm pushing the stakeholder value forward. And so the first slide is about how we keep the gap closed. And then the next one, because a leader is always going to ask this question, is like, okay, well, how do we know this is working? That's kind of my last slide. Like, okay, these are the things we're going to do. And now how are we going to measure you? Right. So, so that deck was huge and it went great. And so we've been using this framework ever since. I love that. Okay. So back to our playbook, I, let's just say I, I borrow your outline for my slide deck.

46:57I, my call with my, or my meeting with my executives and my stakeholders goes really well. Now it's just execution time, right? Like we're using that cloud project. We're generating those web pages. We're building out whatever resources we need all within the guidelines and with those foundational documents of the Claude project, but then also still using human touch for the parts of copywriting where you just need to. Is that the end of this playbook? Is there anything else you'd add? And then if not, I guess take us home with one piece of advice that you want PMMs to walk away with from doing a big project like this?

47:38Yeah, so it helps me. I think one of the big things that this helps me with is context switching. I've kind of realized. So in this big launch, right, I've got to update Crunchbase and Salesforce AppExchange and G2 and all these different websites that talk about Hero. And having this project allows me to go in and say, hey, I need the 120 character version of hero. I need the 300 character version of hero. Like, and I get like that first draft immediately. Right. So like, I'm not getting like death by a thousand cuts doing all these like small projects. Um, but another one, I wanted to talk about another one too, that I thought was real.

48:20Okay. So here's another one. We, with this launch, we wanted to come out with videos, right? Uh, I thought this was a really great idea for my boss where we were going to have a one minute explainer video, a three minute explainer and a five minute explainer video. Right. And so it's fun to think about the script of those three videos, because something I learned from a past boss is like your video has to start from just a plain page script, like with all the moments, it's got to just be a, a boring script on a page and then you go find the talent you find the screens the music all the different things which you all got to start from there and so that was a really fun project to start from the framework excuse me and then be like okay what's what do these three look like like what changes from one to three to five minutes right like what do we bring in more what do we explain more and all of it is just operating from that DNA.

49:22It's like I'm working with an assistant and we're on like the exact same page. And so we could kind of like refine. And so I get an output, I give the feedback and then I get a new version and it's great. And it allows us to work so quickly. I mean, we did these three videos in a week because we had incredible people on the videos. We had a really great sales engineer and a really great sales leader who like did the demos for me. We had a really great video person. But what was awesome was if you think about a project length, all that front stuff was like done in like a day. So it was like, okay, I'm doing my part today.

50:02I'm getting it to other people fast. Everything is speeding up because the product marketing piece is like done a lot quicker while I'm doing other things at the exact same time. So that's what's really cool. So big advocate for doing all that foundational work, building out the Claude project, and then think more creatively about how you can continue to amplify your work and your value with all that goodness that you had put in at the front end with the deep research and the 40 page manifesto and including the persona documents. What? All such good stuff. Okay. All right. Okay. Love this case study.

50:47It's truly one of my favorites most recently because it's just so fascinating and so impressive. Thank you so much, Ryan. I loved it. Thank you. Appreciate you going into so much detail on it. Now it's time for the next segment of our show. This is the messaging critique. This is where as product marketing experts, we get to analyze real world messaging. And the fun part is Ryan, you get to pick the company that we critique the messaging for. Or it doesn't have to be the company messaging, it could also be campaign messaging. Okay, so quick round rules. Try to pick a company that you feel pretty comfortable talking about and that you know the market pretty well.

51:24Then tell us what the messaging is, just quick overview, what the company does. And then tell us what you're loving about it, what's standing out really well. And then something you wish the PMM would have considered differently. And then we'll brainstorm, iterate on how that PMM can take it to the next level. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. I brought up a page on my screen here. This is a site that I love that I haven't actually looked at in a while. So it's a site that I've loved in the past. It's a site that I haven't seen in a little bit. And so it feels like a great chance to like, see like, what are they saying now?

52:00Right? Let's do it. Reveal the company. Who are we looking at? Cool. So I love what User Gems does. I love their site. I love who they work with. I think User Gems. Have you used it recently on the pod? I have not. I have not. So one of my other podcast guests at the very beginning of the year, Julian Sauvage, we critiqued User Gems, but that was months ago. So I'm also curious to see how it has changed. This will be fun. Okay. So User Gems, guys, if you want to follow along, it's usergems.com. User Gems. Yeah. So do you want me to share my screen or what should we do? Yeah, sure. Go for it. Let's do it.

52:45So let's check it out, right? When I get into this page, boy, there's a lot to look at on this page. So the AI Command Center for Outbound and ABM. Okay, I don't love it. So what I'm going to do next is I'm going to go to the next slide, which is fine. One place for all your signals, data, and prioritization. deploy ai agents to run personalized outbound and abm at scale money back guarantee okay that's great because they're kind of like clarifying for me a little bit right because ai command center is tough like it's uh it it's like it's kind of a it's a little bit of the all-in-one thing that we try to get away from right then it's too fluffy yes yeah it still leaves me a little bit like Like I understand the pressure that B2B companies are under with articulating their innovations with AI.

53:43I totally get that. And so it's tough. But throwing it in, and I'm sure this, I'm probably being a little bit more flippant than it was intended, but it feels a little too fluffy for me. it causes me to immediately think like, are you trying to be bigger than you actually are? It's moving away from differentiator, I guess is what I'm saying. And to your point, like being too much to too many folks. Okay, so I don't want to get into it. But what's your critique? What's working really well with some of this? Well, here's what's funny. Like the more I, because I just pulled this up and just got it kind of like you just did.

54:25We just got it kind of flashed at us. Like this wasn't something that we prepared for you and I. So right. Oh yeah, of course. More things are starting to sort of poke out to me a little bit. So it says here, trusted by the best revenue teams. And so now I have a question of who is using this product? Like who on the team revenue team? Like, okay, so who on the team? And I come back up to here and I say, okay, the AI command center for outbound and ABM. So that must be like your SDRs, I think, are using this. So one place for your signals data and prioritization, deploy agents to run personalized outbound and ABM at scale.

55:06My question is, are my SDRs using it? Are my salespeople using it? Are you replacing those people and is a leader using it? That's where I'm a little confused about who is using this in what world or size of company, right? Is that how you feel too? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I know exactly where you're going with this. And the other thing is that when they say the best revenue teams and then they have what looks like a list of logos down there, they're trying to be complimentary to their customers because they're the best teams. But if I'm not a customer, does that mean I'm not the best? It's not a big deal.

55:47It's very picky. Okay, keep going with what you're thinking on some of this. Yeah, so it's a little bit, what it feels like to me is it reminds me of another homepage that we can pull up real quick. And the vibe I get is like, we don't have to be that clear because we already got customers and we already have it going on. So we can just sort of say like whatever we want. And I think, okay, obviously that's not Gong's website. uh all right this is what live is all about right we're gonna know what gongs i know right you are actually is all right gong io okay don't know what gong.com was luckily it wasn't anything too weird gong io i i forgot that but let's look at this one these guys have gone to gong amazing it like okay you say a lot the number one all right so you call yourself number one who's like it's almost like when the car companies give themselves awards right it's like it's a little funny for the operating system according to who yes it's funny that they say this because operating system for revenue teams like to me that would be your crm right like that's where your your point of truth is and we all know who the big crms are so that's what's kind of funny about that headline and then um this this is just sort of a funny thing i don't know what it really means and then built to help you a little yeah yeah sorry so so uh let me let me uh throw the mic back you you jump in please yeah well so what i'm what i'm thinking when we go to like user gems and they and it's kind of getting back to that really top level messaging of like the ai command center and then we go to gone we're like the number one ai operating system to me i'm like what's the difference what's the like I'm sure there is a difference but what I'm getting at is that like I think these b2b companies are under a lot of pressure to bring in this like ai speak into some of this like really top level um narrative and it it ends up getting very like uh like it's like too fluffy I guess is what I'm saying and it confuses me and that can be okay if it's if you provide with some like intrigue and it's like, okay, well maybe I want to look a little deeper.

58:13So, um, and, and this could also be that I'm not the target persona for some of these, but I, I, I guess like my initial gut reaction is like, tell me more because I don't, it's not quite saying enough for me to feel it's, it's feeling more of like a, like rolling my eyes, like, okay, more, more AI stuff being, you know, shoved in there. So, but that's kind of my first take on like something that I wish the PMM would have considered differently is like, let's lean heavier into differentiators than, than trying to run with a me too. I have AI look, look, look, I have AI. like you know so that's my first reaction but i've only been looking at it for like two minutes so what about you as you're kind of like looking at the difference between these what what's your take on it yeah it's funny like i love looking at the flow of a site and then we kind of talk about some of the stuff on the top so like you get in here and what gong is clearly trying to do is say look we are no longer just what we used to be we are we are ai we are ai like and then what they're doing here is they're saying, let's show you some AI, right?

59:28We're going to have this auto playing thing right here. What Gong used to have was this customer tracker, like right up on the top, because it's kind of like the delivery to the promise. They're going to say they're the number one. And then they kind of have to have, we're number one because we have 5 ,000 customers, right? And like, look at the size of these names. We have Google and Dropbox and ADP and like everybody that you would want as a customer. So it's kind of funny that they've got, and then they just kind of stuck this sort of like quick, you know, AI thing on here, which is cool. Um, I guess.

1:00:02Uh, and then they, and then they're right into like, here's how people are using it, right. Customer, uh, customer proof sort of down the line. And then the things that folks probably aren't reading a whole lot past this point. Um, and then getting back to this one, we kind of talked about this top layer and it's, it's cool. They're doing the customer proof thing right here off the top. I love this idea that companies kind of a more modern design where people are putting the case studies like right up in the right up in the top area, right? That's like the new thing is like, have your logos in the case studies together.

1:00:32That's very cool. Companies are switching from six cents to user gem. I like that. They are like planting a flag. It's very bold. I'm really excited to click this, see the comparison link right here. I think we should click it. The other thing that I like about this is that if you were new to UserGems, I think UserGems is a smaller company from Sixth Sense. I might be wrong. I think it is. So it gives some context into who you should compare to us. Sorry, who you should compare us to. And so it gives the customer that context. And then it also states the alternative of like, hey, you're using this.

1:01:15like consider using us. So I, I like where that could evolve into in terms of, you know, maybe like competitive campaigns or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very, I like that insight. And it's funny on this page you get here and I actually have a problem with this book demo button. I think when you think of like a person's flow in this moment, like you just said, they're like, Oh, I know six cents. What's user gems do. I'm going to click this link. This sounds spicy. I think right here is a wasted opportunity. They should have something like, get a video walkthrough of the difference or like give me like more for like i'm not gonna book a demo right now like i i i wouldn't be surprised if this ever gets clicked in on this page in this moment right like not happening so yeah what i this is a really good piece of insight and i would love to see user gems take this to the next level where instead of they're doing like feature comparisons.

1:02:12Bring customers more into this. Go do some user gems. You probably already have some of this research. But what are your customers who are switching? What are they saying? You don't necessarily have to name them here. Get their stories and see what you can do with that in terms of content. Rather than doing a direct feature comparison. Because I think that's a classic PMM trap is getting when you do competitive intelligence is the feature comparison. And like, yes, that there are times when like that does matter. There are table stake features that, you know, your customers require like, yes, of course, but it's more than more often than not.

1:02:54There's more to the story than just the feature comparison. Yeah, it's tough, right? You're reminding me of one of my favorite business books I've read lately. And that's the April Dunford sales pitch book where a big thing, and it's something that we really put into our first call deck. I was so excited that the team kind of allowed me to get inspired by her book. And then like, they were already on the same page of like how we started off. What folks are really looking for you to do on a page like this is show that they can trust you, show that you can be like a market advisor, right? Like April's analogy is like, I went in to buy a toilet for my remodeled bathroom and I need that salesperson to bring me along on the journey of like what this market is and why I need what I need.

1:03:41If you kind of give someone a table where it's a bunch of greens and reds, you're not really getting that trust, right? From what's happening here. You're not showing that like everybody's got their place in the market and maybe what I need is this and six cents is good at this. So I think something I'd love to see in this table is like where Sixth Sense shines. And they are doing it a little bit. You're in this advertising section. But I think that's something kind of funny. And I don't know that that's what I think makes a great comparison page is like you are a trusted market advisor. I love that perspective.

1:04:21I love it. OK, so is this how you'd like to see user gems kind of take their storytelling and narrative to the next level? Is there anything else to the story here? Gosh, let's go back to the front here. I still really love what they're doing. And kind of getting here into AI agents, into these solution pages. It's funny, I haven't looked at this page in a long time. But customers, you know, you just go right to that page, Hall of Gems, I'm not really sure what that is. And they've got resources. Here's what's funny, and it's something that I think every company should really rethink when it comes to resources, is that no one jumps to a site, goes into a resource center and says, I feel like a classroom today, or I feel like a webinar today.

1:05:09And like, we've got to get out of like, the type, sort of being that front door, right? Like, it's, we've got to come back to like, you're, I know, this is like a dramatic word, but like, all anybody cares about are their problems. and what your product is trying to do is like help them survive their problems right and so i think there's like this reimagining of a resource center where it can be um the the uh sort of the input points to solving their problems and they probably have that if i click into this um you know now they're kind of into that state of like reach out to past champions when they change jobs, like revised closed opportunities.

1:05:51Like these might be those examples for user gems, but like, what are the, what are like the headlines that someone would actually care about? What do you think about that? I love that. And I'm, I'm bringing us back to what I said a few minutes ago around, go talk to your customers again. You probably already had this research, so go look at it again. And how can you repackage what you already are hearing from your customers? and I love what you're saying about reimagining resources for your customers, but use their voice to do it. So how can you repackage their own experiences, their pains, their frustrations, their hopes, their dreams, repackaging it into content and assets that will help them continue through that journey into discovering user gems and maintaining a good, a healthy journey to becoming a customer?

1:06:48Yeah, absolutely. I love it. Okay. Well, shout out to any user gems, PMMs out there. You've got some fans and we are very intrigued in how you could evolve your narrative and storytelling. Okay. So Ryan, I always like to make space on this podcast for a moment of gratitude because in product marketing, we never get to where we are without learning and growing from each other. And we're all better for it. So thank you so much for coming on this podcast, sharing your case study. And you've been so generous with your playbook and your time. So just a genuine thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

1:07:28And it's going to benefit the whole PMM community. Yeah, thank you. I mean, if I have gratitude for some folks, you know, I did my I left my last role and I got a new role within a couple of months. And there were some people who really helped me with that shift. There There was Jonathan Pipek, I think I'm saying his last name correctly. Yes, yes. He gave me really good advice on like my portfolio. Philippe from GetWise has always been, you know, in my corner, which is amazing. My old boss, Joe Andrews, is a product marketer from Zuora, who is the CMO at SupportLogic. Amazing product marketer.

1:08:06Gerard Green, my current CMO, he has a big presence on LinkedIn. Great product marketer. and then you know three kind of influencers I love Dave Gearhart and Exit 5 of course we're all fans April Dunford who I've mentioned probably 10 times Anthony Pieri I mean these are great follow Jason Oakley's email newsletter I know he has a partner I can't think of his name right now their newsletter is great your your podcast is great so it's so fun to be in a space that is always changing. And then I get to have a day job and then learn from all of you. So thank you. Yeah, isn't it so great? I mean, our community of product marketers is just filled with givers who give their time and their talent and mentorship.

1:08:53It's so lovely. I love those shout outs. And some of those folks either have been on the podcast before or they've been mentioned before in the moment of gratitude. So it's just a further testament that they really are awesome. Okay. And this is my last question for you, Ryan. Where else can we access your expertise if listeners want to reach out? Yeah, just LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. I think I've been on LinkedIn so long. I think my URL on LinkedIn is just slash Radcliffe. So I think it's been like 20 years I've been on LinkedIn. So yeah, that's hard. I have a portfolio page, but I made a notion.

1:09:36and it was really fun building all that. But since I started here, I haven't touched it. So it's a little out of it. It changes so quickly. Yes, it changes really quickly. So awesome. Well, again, thank you so much, Ryan. And hey, PMM listeners, if you like this episode, please share it with a PMM friend. I'd be so grateful if you'd leave us a review. It helps so much with our reach. And thank you so much for coming on this journey with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey. Looking pretty deep!

1:10:13Getting ready to really play with us ! Another gosh, Hertfordjuks каждыйкаaz was a dream As far as a work that really changed lives Authentic Vince Galna Thank you.