Evangelize Your Value Like Hattie the PMM

30:16So then coming back to our, my one last question for you on this topic, and I guess for any PMM who's out there listening and trying to build credibility and influence in their org, what is your final piece of advice as they're trying to create that system and build out their champions and identify their ICPs. Yeah, this is a crucial piece of advice that I would give. And I have a lot of male clients, which always surprises people. And I tell them because they're always like, Hattie, communication, how is that important? Or, oh, being authentic, how is that important? And I'm like, dude, please just hear me out.

30:56It's not woo-woo stuff. It's super important. But one thing that I've recognized amongst PMMs when they first join me to when they leave or when they're like six months deep into our coaching is they will start off kind of acting like as a professional being like, oh, I need to act a specific way or I need to pretend to be someone that I'm not. And the biggest unlocks that I've had in my clients in terms of them speeding up the rate of them getting to their personal goals in their career has been when they've relinquished the control and said, I'm going to fully lean into being me unapologetically.

31:34and it sounds very woo-woo but it's actually not if you really think about it because if you don't spend the time changing yourself in putting yourself into a completely different version of you you're basically if you do that you remove your complete edge you remove your unfair advantage you remove the gifts that you've been given because i have a real world understanding of we as PMMs, we as humans in general, we are given specific strengths in each of us that allows us to be reliant on one another. That's how we can work as an ecosystem. It's systems thinking to how we in tech are built. And also when it comes to building teams, which I've done multiple times, I'm always thinking about, okay, well, what are the different strengths that I can have within my team members and how can they complement one another.

32:24So when I see PMMs come to me and they're like, oh, I read this article on, you know, XYZ, like habits of a good PMM or how I should be or the skill sets to have. And it's the antithesis of their superpowers of their unfair advantage. I'm like, you need to cut that out as quickly as possible and lean into what gives you your strength, lean into what is your unfair advantage and bring that to the table because that will actually be your unlock and your key to speeding up your success factor. And I actually break this down in my profitable PMM challenge. And I break it down because it's interesting where I've attracted all different seniorities from PMMs who are literally one year in the game to 30 plus years in the game from different industries across payment to pure SaaS and more in different geographies from Columbia to the US.

33:15It's wild, like the breadth of different people that come into a profitable PMM challenge. And it's fascinating because I can feel and see the shift in the PMMs where at the start of the week, they're acting a specific way, like, oh, this is what a professional PMM acts like. And towards the end, everyone's like open and vulnerable. And they're like, my goodness, this was like therapy, but equally I'm now strengthened. I'm motivated. I now feel like I can own my career as opposed to being like a bystander and watching my career fly before my eyes because of some, someone above it's so fun but also it's just so groundbreaking that I truly believe if people do the internal work that's why I'm a huge fan of therapy in my own life and I I'm like I recommend it if my clients need to do I'm like maybe you might want to think about it but delving deep into well what is it that makes you unique and therefore how can you bring that and like strengthen that muscle and make sure that you don't allow that to wither away in your career but you use it as your superpower should be.

34:16Absolutely. I love that resonates so much with me. And it's a lesson that it took me a while to learn early in my career. I am very obviously a high energy, enthusiastic person and being female, being a woman, being very feminine. It's, it was hard earlier on in the B2B tech world. And I was very quickly, very often stereotyped. And it was just hard for me to try to figure out what I should do with this energy and enthusiasm because I couldn't turn it off. So I had to learn, well, how do I use this actually as a superpower? and how to use it to influence and motivate people. And I was able to do that, but it took me time to not be stereotyped as someone who's airheaded and not competent.

35:20I had to prove my competencies along with my enthusiasm and my high energy. And that took time to do. But it's an ongoing management of my superpower. So I'm curious if I were to join the profitable PMM challenge today, what could I expect as part of the experience? Yeah, I think you would honestly find it groundbreaking. I would love to have you as part of the challenge because you're able to really go in deep into the systems thinking behind everything that's done. Because I think a lot of product marketing content is always around the end result. It's like, oh, create this PMM chart or create this, you know, breakdown.

36:04Here's an asset. Yeah, here's an asset. Here's a framework. Here's the final thing. When actually I go in deep, like actually deep. It's all about the system and the process, not necessarily the end result. Exactly. It's like the context in which everything else is built. And I do that for my clients in terms of if you want to learn how to absolutely crush it in your career, take the challenge. And Elle, you would be able to do that because you are undermined for being feminine. You were seen as like the airhead of people. And I'm telling you, the PMMs who have been in my challenge so far, they've literally come with these these topics and the men in my challenge have said i faced workplace bullies i have dealt with being undermined yet because i found this unique trait in us pmm specifically which is we are majority on the whole empaths we actually care about our customer we care about doing good work and therefore it gets used against our advantage by people who want to use it for their own advantage.

37:09A lot of PMMs that I speak to and have helped are typically introverted. I'm actually an introvert, believe it or not. And I'm an introvert who acts extrovert in order to get the job done and do what I'm meant to do on this planet by God's will. And I recognize that a lot of introverts are pushed over by the extroverts. And again, where do the extroverts lie? Usually in sales, usually in product, usually they're very up their own bums. and we need to face that. So the challenge, it really goes in deep. It doesn't just test you on the product marketing knowledge you have. You literally don't have to learn anything else.

37:46It's all about me saying, show up as you are with the knowledge that you have. You have all the skill sets already. You have all the knowledge already. This is about now learning how to unpack it so we can go in deep into the core of you. I will give you homework every single day for you to do every day builds upon one another and by the end of the week you will feel your life and your career changed and a hundred percent out of a hundred percent so far does that even make sense like a hundred percent whatever like i'm so it doesn't matter like i'm excited yeah like a hundred percent of people so far of bmm so far have been like that was insane and at the start of the week they're like Hattie we think you're crazy but by the end of it they're like I see why you did that now and I'm like yes thank you for trusting me so honestly Elle like I would love to have you in the profitable PMM challenge you'd be like you'd be perfect for it so fun thank you so shameless plug for anyone out there who's curious check out the PMM challenge um yeah 100 % 100 % out of 100 % out.

38:57Like I'm going to make that thing. Yes. I love it. This was such a helpful case study on how PMMs can bring their value to the table and be seen and known in their organization and go from being underestimated and undervalued to being appreciated and having their careers just absolutely take off. So thank you so much, Hattie for showing us all the work that goes into that and how PMMs can get started today. All right. So that closes the first segment of our show. Now I'd like to move on to the second segment of our show, which is the messaging critique. So if anyone has listened before, you know, this is the part where, um, Hattie and I as product marketing experts get to analyze real world marketing.

39:43And the fun part is Hattie gets to choose the company that we take a look at. Um, before we get started, just going to go over some really quick ground rules. we're going to pick a company or Hattie has picked a company that we have an understanding of the customer on or that she has an understanding of the customer on because great product marketing. No, you know, you can't just pick a company or critique messaging on a company where you don't know the customer. So that's how we select the company. And first, Hattie is going to tell me something that she's loving about the messaging. Second, something that she wishes the PMM would have done differently or considered.

40:15And then finally, we're going to do a quick, fun, creative brainstorm on what the PMM can do to take their messaging to the next level. Again, all about learning and refining our craft. No negativity, just a thoughtful, constructive critique. All right. So Hattie, please give us the unveil. Like who is the who's the company that you've selected today? Yeah, the company I've selected is called Guideflow. OK, I'm going to open their website. I was so excited. I took a peek earlier and I squealed because it's so cute. So for everyone who's listening, it's guideflow, G-U-I-D-E-F-L-O-W.com. And it's so cute.

40:57When you go to their website, there's like a little animated, like they look like toys. Yeah, toy ducks. And I'm probably, yeah, they're so cute. They're like going down like a little slide and it like immediately, definitely before I even read anything on the page I it brings me joy just looking at it it really does it probably I am in a season of life where I have a three and a half year old and a 16 month old so like child play is very much part of my every day so it's probably love it Hattie please tell me what does guide flow do yeah so they do interactive demos and I've heard about them because firstly two of their sales guys came to one of my events here in London because I throw PMM mini conferences every month and I was like what the heck are you guys doing here and they were so fun and so bubbly and I was like oh interesting okay I'll check you out and then like what was interesting was i learned that a lot of pmms are switching to them as a company yeah so i was like okay i need to check you guys need to check it out yeah yeah okay okay so um interactive demos i love it which by the way i think my last one of my last guests recent guests also shared a it wasn't interactive maybe it was like a self-guided demo platform kind of tool.

42:25So I'm really curious to see how this one differs and maybe if they play in like the same market, but like cater to maybe a different ICP. So I'll be really curious about that. So who do you think is Guidepost's target customer? Yeah, so they've made it pretty clear that their target customer are marketers in general, product marketers, customer support, sales, training and enablement, products, partnerships and more. But I like the fact that they've been clear about who they're going after. Yeah. So just a quick question for clarification. Is it saying that like is Guideflow, is it for a company to arm their internal employees with interactive demos so that they can like go demo something for a customer or prospect at any time?

43:12Or is it for a company to create for any customer to be able to do an interactive demo? it's primarily to my understanding for an organization to show interactive demos on their website but also the cs teams and the sales teams can do their own demos on behalf of customers as as needed that way as needed yeah so i think it's like a mix of using it on the website but also directing customers directly either through a link you know personalized link and they'll be able to watch demos when they need support which is pretty cool it's cool that it taps both sides right I like yeah I agree um okay so what are you loving about their messaging I because I've used the product I actually delved into it because I'm always up for like using new products especially if they're for PMMs like their product is generally truly beautiful Elle and what I then saw like the messaging is even though like I love their cute and playful nature like you mentioned with the ducks but I'm like they are underselling themselves I think that was what was most surprising to me the messaging is just truly underselling themselves massively and the use of like the AI based I was like like the messaging isn't speaking to what like really drove me in the product and I yeah so it's really fascinating because I'm like they do a great job of showing that you know their tool is used by insanely great organizations and their demo the the interactive demo that they actually show is fantastic and the breakthrough and everything but i'm like i think you could go harder dude like i just think you can go so much harder because most of the interactive demos that i've seen they do obviously leave like link into it speeds up you You know, you can do it in seconds and not days.

45:07And, you know, you can build it one in five minutes. But because I've used their tool, it feels quality. Like, I don't know. It's like that feeling is there. And I'm a big fan of anything that's quality from the pens that I use to the products that I use. Hands down. I'm so sick of, like, garbage stuff that's really low quality. It's like, ugh. No, over that. And especially when you're at a specific seniority, you're just like, Like, I just want to be surrounded by beauty. Like, yes, I need to. And I'm like, I don't see any of the aha moments that I had in their messaging. Yeah. Okay. So when I go to their website, it says show, don't tell, create AI based interactive demos too.

45:55And then they've got this like, kind of like a carousel of changing use cases. It's like upgrade your customer support, supercharge your sales. I'm waiting for the next one to come train your team in seconds on board your customers right so it's changing it's changing on all these use cases and I kind of feel like I mean I don't want to get too much into your critique but I kind of feel like they're trying to be everything everywhere all at once like they're focusing on all these different use cases which I think are going to have very different set of problems and by doing that you're not to your point telling a good story on any one particular use case.

46:36Like, yeah, sure, your product could be used to train your internal sales teams, but let's focus on just converting customers. Then you can expand to some of those other use cases. And I mean this like for, this is obviously like some kind of small company or startup, but what do you think about that? I would agree because they have their you cases really clearly defined in their tab section but the home page I feel like if they speak to the fact that you know for example I know that PMMs that I've spoken to are literally switching from other interactive demos to guide flow and I'm like well tell me more like why etc because I'm always curious I always want to be at the forefront because I coach so many PMMs so I want to recommend tools that are actually good right and I'm like my goodness their home page could be so much more like sassier and bolder yeah you know they can say hey you've heard about all the other interactive demos on the market we are the one that everyone is switching to because yeah we are like if you are sick of you know low quality buggy really just disgusting product like sell the problem yeah sell the problem exactly like lean in and be bold with it and especially because I met like I said two of the guys at my like two of the sales guys at my um event and they are french and they are very very charismatic like full of personality so funny i'm like it doesn't translate like the culture of the company from those two guys that i met are just so down to earth so like up for fun and it just feels like like you said it feels too samey samey you know it says like ai based interactive demos too and then it speaks to all the different use cases and i'm like dude like the show don't tell for sure but i would be like fully bold like we are the new company on the block yes we're a startup like just lean into what it is they are and this is basically similar to what we were speaking to earlier l around like if you have your unique differentiator and your personal superpower and your unfair advantage lean into it do not hide it and i think the homepage, at least what's at the top of the fold that we're looking at, it doesn't highlight the real true differentiator, to me at least.

48:59Right. Yes, exactly. And I was just going to say, as I'm kind of just clicking through their website, and I don't want to critique websites, right? Because that's not what product marketers do. Although we can give some feedback around how they're telling the story on the website. I just feel like when I first landed on the page, I said, I immediately felt joy. And then that started to fade because it seemed like you said, like, oh, this is just another same old, same old AI powered interactive demo tool. That's probably some cheap, like they made the code with AI in a week and it's, you know, hasn't been versioned and it hasn't been tested and, you know, just not that joyful experience that, that I was hoping to have, but it sounds like the product really does give you that.

49:46That's it. Exactly. It's again, it's a perception play. It kind of links nicely to what we were speaking about earlier. It's a perception play. It's a perception play. Again, it's like being a fantastic PMM, but your perception is completely off. And it's the same thing here because I'm not, this is why I want to use it as an example, because I've been in the product L I like, I've been in the products and I have tested out so many different interactive tools that I know that this is quality stuff like I was like super impressed it has like this Scandinavian feel to it like if anyone knows about Scandinavian like furniture and like the aesthetic yeah and when I was it's so good quality and when I was in the product I was like my goodness I was I was like this feels like scandinavia this feels like good quality stuff yes and when i saw the home page i was like no like it just the messaging can be improved like there are there is like a ton of room for improvement so i think you're right l in terms of if they keep for example their playful element like the playfulness which again was like this little ducks thing it is actually very much in line with the vibe of the guys that I met in real life they were very friendly very funny yeah they were just like where should we go should we go to like pizza should we do steak and I was just like I will give you any recommendation you like dude because you guys are funny yeah so I think like like putting the playful nature with the fact that they have personality they're extremely good quality they're used by all of these amazing organizations and just sharing more of that take and i would say go bold with it i just yeah i i would i would love to i love this messaging yes oh okay guide flow we love the product we love your playfulness and we want to see more bold playful messaging yeah for sure big time okay but shout out you guys are on the right track everyone we got to iterate along the way so Hattie one thing I always try to do on this podcast is to make room for gratitude so I'd like to move on to our a moment of gratitude because in product marketing none of us get here alone obviously you have a ton of clients who relied on you to help reshape and reform their experience as a PMM and I know myself I've had so many mentors from people who didn't even realize that they were mentoring me to direct managers who are making it an effort like to actively mentor me.

52:27So I want to thank you for your time and effort to do this episode today and to share your expertise. So thank you so much for being here and doing that. And then before we wrap up, I want to turn it over to you. And we'd love to hear any PMMs that have helped shape who you are and the amazing Hattie the PMM. Give them a shout out. Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me, Al. This has been an absolute pleasure. And I want to shout out my previous PMM colleagues who joined Tempo after I was brought in. And they've been exceptional people, like truly. And I've actually made lifelong friendships with a few of them.

53:07and just working with exceptional PMMs really allowed me to up-level myself in ways that I had no idea that I could do in a short space of time right it's just it's just been such a blessing especially since I had that micromanager who really started off the the sequence of events and the adventure that I had there into a way that I thought wouldn't end positive positively but the PMMs that I've worked with directly have been exceptional including my manager even the VPs, like just, my goodness, I have such good friends now out of it. And I want to shout out some like Eric Holland. I like, he's, he's amazing, you know, part of We're Not Marketers.

53:49And yeah, he's just been such a good friend. And yeah, I just, I love that man to the depths of me. I'm a big fan. And obviously a big fan of the show and everything. Absolutely. and um yeah he's just been such a big supporter i think we vibe on a completely different level where we understand in the space of product marketing being like an influencer i guess a lot of people think we come from a place of like narcissism or a place of yeah or a place of like wanting to i don't know be in the spotlight when actually what we're truly doing is just like what you're doing el you're putting other pmms at the at the forefront and at the spotlight and trying to move the entire product marketing, you know, division or industry forward beyond what is like the very generic utopian content.

54:39It's that I can't gatekeep this, right? Exactly. Exactly. I hear an amazing product marketing story and I'm like, people need to hear this. It's so good. Exactly. Yeah. And your podcast has been amazing. That's why I'm just like, so grateful you've had me on because I've been like a huge champion of product marketing adventures from the start. Yeah. Because you have, thank you. I really have. Yeah. Cause I think, I don't know if you remember but I reached out to you when you announced you did episode I know and I was so flattered and just beyond I was giddy Hattie stop I was giddy to speak to you because I'm I'm a huge fan of people owning their life of leading into their superpowers of doing whatever the heck you want to do if you want to create a podcast go for it girl like I'm here for you I'm backing you you know I want you to thrive yeah and I think what you've done has been exceptional so you know I want to thank you for being an absolute game-changing person who's leading the way you know you're bringing these like amazing quality conversations to product marketing and it's just been groundbreaking so yeah I want to thank you I want to thank a couple friends who have become like they were like PMM friends but now they've become actual friends like like Louise Dunn.

55:54I love that. Anna Bienes. Yeah. You know, well, it used to be like, they would just come to my events and now we go to spas together and brunches and dinners. I love it. Yes. Like actual, actual friends. Isn't that the best? Yes. It's the best. It's the best, honestly, where I can speak to them about, you know, dating in the London scene and they can be like, oh, I'm married. And I'll be like, oh, well, you're so lucky. I'm joking. Oh, conversations transformed from what do you think about this messaging? what's the customer pain points to check out this date that I went on and exactly going from like frameworks to like does he work I'm joking yes I love it 100 % oh my goodness yeah so fun so fun and uh finally I would like to really thank all of my clients like every single one of them in all capacities from big companies like Amazon Mirror and Meta who to small startups who are just like kicking off their career everyone inspires me so much it gets me up in the morning working late at night they're all incredibly smart individuals and yeah I just I love product marketing to the depths of my soul and I think a lot of people when they consume my content on the like the first time they start to see my content they probably don't realize how much I really truly care about product marketing because you know at the start of this conversation I kicked off that I had built out my company you know for six and a half years and it was literally that company that changed my trajectory of my life in ways that I had no idea so product marketing to me was a salvation because one thing that I don't actually tell a lot of people was I actually built that company when I was homeless and for a year straight yeah for a year straight I was living out of a suitcase in a bin bag because I don't have the best relationship with my family and for a sequence of events it led to that and I'm like now in hindsight like it was the best thing that ever happened thank god it happened but product marketing was literally a salvation and the more I think about it I could probably cry so I don't want that because you'll get good ratings I'm joking but um you're not having that from me Elle um but yeah like um my goodness yeah product marketing literally was like my my breakthrough away from poverty into a life that I couldn't imagine for myself and that's again a reason that's brought me back into my faith and I would obviously thank God for everything that's that he's done for me but yeah the ability to help other PMMs uh live out their dream life like I have has been like honestly like an absolute blessing um and that's why I'm just so thankful that you're here today and yeah I presume you're gonna clip this and put this on TikTok but honestly I just I think it's good to be vulnerable I think it's okay to be vulnerable and especially since I care so much and if product marketing can change someone's life in a way that they didn't know or it can change their kids lives you know Elle for example you have two amazing kids like if it can change your kids lives from the decision of okay well they have you know they have to go to a specific school to now we can put them in the school that we want or we can go on holiday to a place that we want as opposed to what we can afford it's just like if I'm able to play even the smallest part in someone's career whether it be they're just in the product marketing world or they're 30 plus years in the game which a lot of me come to me from that world which is wild but I think it's because they see some sort of confidence in me that they can borrow and I'm like let's do this let's crush it which is funny because one of my recent clients he joined me he's much older what a person who i didn't think would ever want my coaching but he was like i want to end my product marketing career with a bang he was like i want to have true impact i want i want to have a level of impact i will be so happy when i retire and i'm like dude let's do this let's go I love it.

59:57Yeah, I just love product marketing to the depths of my soul. And yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah. And we're so lucky to have you that such a cheerleader for others and a true coach who is able to help someone take that superpower and harness it to have that impact. So thank you so much for sharing and for being vulnerable. And I'm such a big believer of his plan is greater than our plan. And it's so funny how something, yeah, something that is meant for you will find you even no matter how long it takes. So I'm glad that productmarketers.com found you, even though you founded it. Right, exactly.

1:00:45So true. So true. And then my last question for you, Hattie, is where can we access your expertise? Obviously, we've got productmarketers.com. We've got LinkedIn. You know, if someone wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way? Yeah, I would say the best way is jump into my DMs on LinkedIn. Follow me there. I have my YouTube channel as well, where I go into depth on specific areas of product marketing, have my profitable PMM challenge. So I'd love everyone to come and join it. Just see what it's like. Yes. Yeah, I feel like it's going to be groundbreaking. So for a lot of people, more than the hundreds that I've already put them through.

1:01:23So like, just jump in, try it. But also I have my group coaching and my inner circle coaching, which is for higher level PMMs of different seniorities. So right now I have PMM employees in there. I have employees who want to become freelancers or do consulting work on the side, really ambitious PMMs who come to me. I think it's because they see what I'm doing and they're like, huh, I can learn from this lady because, you know, bear in mind, Al, I only created product marketers.com and launched it at the end of January. So maybe like seven months ago. Yeah. And now I'm considered, you know, a known name amongst PMM consultants and coaches who've been in the game for years and years and years.

1:02:04So I'm always about like, how can we use the highest leverage ways in order for you to build up your career, get to your goals as quickly as possible. That's, that's why I was able to be all of the C-suite roles in my twenties and now my thirties is doing this. So yeah, I would just recommend if you want to find me, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on YouTube. I'm always down to chat. I'm always down to voice note. So ping me a message and yeah. We will definitely link everything in the show notes for everyone. One last shameless plug for join the PMM challenge. Yeah, do it, please. And thank you PMM listeners for joining us on this adventure today.

1:02:40I hope today's episode leaves you with inspiration to take the next step in your own journey. Thank you.