In short
How to build customer/partner community as a growth strategy (vs. generic audiences), using Expedia’s Travel Agent Affiliate Program (TAP) as a case study, plus a messaging critique of Maven Clinic.
Guest backgrounds
Cara Garavet, former senior product marketing leader at Expedia (worked across product, partners, revenue) supporting ~200,000 travel advisors globally; now a product marketing consultant and creator of “Between Launches,” a monthly community for product marketers.
Key claims
Communities work when members share a purpose and feel they belong; start niche with clear business intention; treat community like a product (pilot, measure participation and engagement quality); peer-to-peer support is the “flywheel”; AI should enable (summarize/patterns) but not replace human connection.
Notable examples
Expedia TAP used niche advisor communities, targeted webinars, relevant content, an LMS, sales-team involvement, and bringing advisors into Expedia partnership events; advisors shared best practices, improving satisfaction, product understanding, and share of wallet. Messaging critique: Maven Clinic balances emotional women/family health stories with HR business impact, but should prioritize the HR ICP more prominently on top-level pages and reduce “straddling” employee+employer messaging; use clearer business/clinical outcome structure and “less is more.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Importance of Community in Marketing
0:46 to 1:46
Exploration of how community influences customer connection and brand loyalty.
“Right now, it feels like every brand is trying to build a community.”
Introducing Cara Garavet
1:47 to 3:02
Introduction of Cara Garavet and her background in product marketing.
“matters now more than ever, and how the right kind of community can transform a brand from something people buy into something or some place they belong to.”
Defining Community in Marketing
3:03 to 4:47
Discussion on what constitutes a true community versus just a large audience.
“I'm a long-time listener, first-time guest, so very, very excited to be here.”
Community in Expedia's Travel Agent Affiliate Program
4:48 to 5:59
How community was utilized within Expedia's program for travel advisors.
“The difference in communities now is having a shared purpose for them to interact with each other.”
Strategies for Increasing Engagement
6:00 to 10:40
Detailed strategies implemented to increase engagement and share of wallet among travel advisors.
“So TAP is Expedia's B2B platform designed for travel advisors.”
Creating Value Through Community
10:41 to 13:08
The organic growth of community-driven content and peer interactions that enhance product understanding.
“And you had this, I guess, a feedback loop of, like you mentioned, trends and insights that were coming from the people that you were speaking to and then you're feeding it back.”
Turning Case Studies into Playbooks
13:09 to 14:00
Guidance on transforming case studies into actionable playbooks for product marketers.
“there's so many companies that have capitalized on this, right?”
Building Community: The Importance of Intention
14:00 to 15:11
Learn why understanding your goals is essential before creating a community.
“And they got something out of it too, right?”
Identifying Your Audience: Niche vs. Broad
15:12 to 18:14
Discover how to define a specific audience for your community to drive engagement.
“And so you want to figure out like, what's that, what's that core goal that you want to think about?”
Choosing the Right Platform for Community
18:15 to 19:54
Explore strategies for selecting the best channels for your community based on audience behavior.
“Maybe start with that first and then slowly start to build and expand from there.”
Show all 27 chapters
Aligning Goals: Community vs. Business Objectives
19:55 to 23:13
Understand the importance of aligning community goals with business objectives for success.
“And that's why you got to think of that customer behavior.”
Measuring Community Success: Participation and Engagement
23:14 to 25:44
Learn how to measure participation and engagement to assess community effectiveness.
“So there's the business goal of why we're doing this.”
Peer-to-Peer Support: The Key to Community Growth
25:45 to 26:49
Discover how peer support can enhance community dynamics and member engagement.
“You're doing a lot of that, like product adoption and product usage, you know, you know, measurements.”
Integrating AI into Community Strategies
26:50 to 28:00
Explore the role of AI in enhancing community engagement while maintaining human connection.
“You mentioned AI earlier that you had fielded, you did a little bit of research, surveyed the prospective members, and AI was a hot topic.”
Leveraging Community for Discoverability
28:00 to 29:15
Learn how community engagement can enhance visibility in AI systems.
“They can become a content strategy on their own, shaping how the company shows up in LLMs and making it easier for your prospects to find you.”
Launching a Community Effectively
29:15 to 30:39
Understand the importance of starting small and focusing on engagement in community launches.
“In fact, even in between launches, I don't record the calls.”
Advice for Building Product Communities
30:39 to 32:38
Discover the key factors in aligning community goals with audience needs.
“you know, we talked about, you know, around that specific problem or kind of goal, really to give them a clear reason to show up and then treat it like a product.”
Transition to Messaging Critique Segment
32:38 to 33:12
Prepare for an analysis of real-world marketing messaging by a guest expert.
“Well, this was so insightful and, like I said, so timely for everything that I'm seeing.”
Choosing a Company for Messaging Analysis
33:12 to 34:20
Learn how to select a company for effective marketing messaging critique.
“Okay, so now it's time for the next segment of the show.”
Maven Clinic's Messaging Strengths
34:20 to 35:50
Explore how Maven Clinic balances emotional storytelling with business impact.
“I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but I'm very passionate about what they do.”
Analyzing Maven Clinic's Website Messaging
35:50 to 38:10
Examine the effectiveness of Maven Clinic's messaging for its target audiences.
“think, you know, there's a lot of women's topics around fertility, around menopause or paramedopause or anxiety.”
Improving Messaging for Target Audiences
38:10 to 40:19
Discuss strategies for enhancing messaging clarity for specific audiences.
“But then they also speak to that ICP of the HR.”
Effective Messaging Techniques for Product Marketers
40:19 to 42:00
Learn how to distill messaging to focus on what truly matters to the target audience.
“So kind of flipping the script around a little bit.”
The Importance of Simplifying Messaging
42:00 to 43:44
Learn how less can be more in product marketing messaging.
“And one of the reasons I went into product marketing is when I was leading a sales team, they would take what marketing gave them and it might have six things on it, right?”
Gratitude and Community in Product Marketing
43:44 to 45:06
Discover the significance of gratitude and community support in product marketing.
“Maybe it's just rearranging a bit and focusing in on the ICP.”
Celebrating the PMM Community
45:06 to 46:37
Explore the value of the product marketing community and its collective impact.
“Honestly, one of the things I love about the product marketing community is how open everyone is.”
Connecting with Experts
46:37 to 47:25
Find out how to connect with industry experts and leverage resources.
“It truly is part of the definition that you laid out.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02Hi friends, welcome to Product Marketing Adventures, the only show that takes you beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. My name is Elle Grossenbacher, your trusted guide and host of this show. In each episode, I bring in expert product marketers to co-host two segments of this show. First, a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique for companies we admire. So if you're a PMM looking for practical guidance and inspiration, you're in the right place. Are you ready? Let's go.
0:42Hey PMMs, tell me if you've been feeling this. Right now, it feels like every brand is trying to build a community. Am I right? My take on this is that in a world that's overflowing with AI-generated content and that perfectly polished noise, people are starting to crave something different. Good old-fashioned human connection. Surprise, surprise. Because when customers feel like they belong, not just transacting, they don't just use your product. They start to trust you. They advocate for you. Your brand becomes a place, not just a vendor. So what actually creates that feeling? Why do some communities make people feel seen, heard, and deeply connected, while others feel like empty Slack groups or glorified mailing lists?
1:31And why are smaller, more intentional communities suddenly outperforming massive audiences? Today, we're unpacking one of the most powerful growth strategies in modern marketing, community. What it really is, why it matters now more than ever, and how the right kind of community can transform a brand from something people buy into something or some place they belong to. And to help us unpack this, I'm thrilled to welcome Cara Garavet to the show. Cara is a dynamic product marketing leader who helped shape the world's largest travel platform to drive growth through complex B2B ecosystems. She spent many years at Expedia as a senior leader in product marketing, working at the intersection of product, partners, and revenue.
2:21Today, she advises companies on how to elevate product marketing from tactical function to a true strategic driver of business impact. She's also the creator of Between Launches, a community of product marketers who meet monthly to learn from one another, share real world experiences, and grow their craft together, which makes her especially well qualified for today's topic on community.
2:48Cara Gravett:And on top of that, Cara has been recognized by the Product Marketing Alliance as a top product marketing consultant, and she's known for bringing both deep customer empathy and strong business ownership to everything she touches. Welcome to the show, Cara. Thank you. Thank you so much. Hello, Hello, everybody. I'm a long-time listener, first-time guest, so very, very excited to be here. Yay! Likewise. Okay, I want to jump right in because this topic is so timely and so interesting. So before we get into the case study, though, I want to start with maybe something a little more foundational. So the word community gets thrown around a lot in marketing.
3:31So how do you define community when it comes to customers or partners? Like, what makes something a true community versus just an audience?
3:43Cara Gravett:Yeah. I think the way we define community is shifting. It used to be that we think big audiences, you know, the bigger the better, especially on social. You know, how can we get this bigger audience? But now we're seeing a shift towards much more relevance. Members want to feel like they belong. I think you mentioned in your intro, they really want to feel it. So think about the fitness industry. You know, I joined a gym 15, 20 years ago, and it was a gym that had everything. I would go and work out. I would leave. It didn't really feel like there was a sense of community. Fast forward to today, there's so many more options.
4:21Cara Gravett:I personally attend Bar 3, which is a mix of Pilates, ballet, and yoga. And it specializes in women and women of a similar age and demographic of myself. So it makes it really feel personal. It's a very personal experience. I actually get a chance to connect with the teachers. I connect with the people. And I've actually made some really good friends. So I think that's the difference. The biggest difference is not necessarily just messaging out. The difference in communities now is having a shared purpose for them to interact with each other. I love that. Shared purpose. Plus, you look around and you're like, these people are just like me.
5:04You know, maybe not necessarily like look like you, quote unquote, because obviously many communities can be online. So you may not actually see them. But I'm thinking even to like Reddit communities, right? I have no idea who those people are, what they look like, other than just some, you know, silly handle that they created. But again, back to your point of like shared purpose and making it personal. And I think the belonging piece is especially important here, right? So now let's ground that definition in taking us back to your time at Expedia. So ahead of this recording, when we were doing our prep call for this, we talked a lot about your time at Expedia and Expedia's Travel Agent Affiliate Program, or TAP.
5:51So explain to us now how community shows up wrapped around in that context and tell us a little bit more about who are these advisors and what was going on?
6:03Cara Gravett:Yeah, absolutely. So TAP is Expedia's B2B platform designed for travel advisors. Travel advisors are also known as travel agents, if you didn't know that. They're mostly independent business owners. So there are some consortiums and the like, but they're mostly individual business owners that are booking travel for a client. We are about 200 ,000 of them globally. So we had reach, but they weren't necessarily using our platform exclusively. They had multiple tools on their desktop. And the needs of the day and the client really, that's what drove them to use a particular tool over another. And so community showed up really differently here.
6:43Cara Gravett:We weren't just supporting the end user, we're supporting the business owners and helping to make that decision. You know, where to book, how to learn, and really who to trust. Got it. Okay, so the trust factor. And again, And I'm thinking back to shared purpose. So with that context now, digging a little deeper into the case study, I guess walk us through the time when you're trying to increase engagement now. And I think what you were saying before in a prep call was around share of wallet. When you were trying to build some of that share of wallet from travel advisors, leveraging the tap, I'm calling it.
7:24What was happening and how did you decide what to do? Yeah. Yeah.
7:29Cara Gravett:Great question. So we were in a place, as I mentioned before, that travel advisors had many tools to be able to select form. We have the reach, but we didn't necessarily have, we weren't necessarily their go-to platform. And so the goal was to increase share of wallet. Essentially what that means is the usage of the platform and in turn revenue, and then also to close some knowledge gaps. We actually had a lot of different tools and features that I don't think the travel advisors were aware of at the time. So we were really, those are kind of our chief goals is share wallet and knowledge gaps.
8:05Cara Gravett:We also have the unique challenge that they were so globally dispersed, right? So we couldn't necessarily just do something small. We wanted to do something that was personal, but also something that was scalable so we could educate them and connect to them. So we decided to build some smaller niche communities. We kind of looked at our audience, and we did some surveys really to find out, you know, what their niches were and organized some smaller groups based on their shared challenges and then interests. Now we layered on a few different channels to bring them together and then provide content.
8:40Cara Gravett:So we did targeted webinars, We created more relevant content based on the topics that they wanted to discuss. We brought in our sales team. So they were much more connected to not only understanding what they wanted, but why. Why did they want these particular things? We did content in terms of sharing out advisor trends and insights, really kind of what are the booking trends so we could help them with their business, really understanding how to grow that. We did create a formal LMS for more structured learning, which was very well received. And real quick, just for listeners slash myself who may not know, what is LMS?
9:26Oh, good call.
9:28Cara Gravett:It is a learning management system. So we create educational and educational tool where you can put up, you know, it's kind of a knowledge bank of learning. Yes. Okay. makes perfect sense especially as you were talking about the like content that you were creating and providing got it okay yes good call yes and so that was well received because it really opened up their eyes to the services and products that we have that they just weren't really aware of not that the product was very complex but you know they're they're in their their day-to-day we also brought some of the members into some of our internal events we had some big Expedia partnership events, which we had never brought the travel advisors to before.
10:09Cara Gravett:And so we started to bring them into those as well. And the combination of those is really where things started to click. Because not only were they interested in what we had to say, it became much more peer driven. Advisors were helping each other. They were sharing best practices and tips, which really that's what made the community valuable. And from there, we saw an increase in overall satisfaction, a better product understanding. We did see our increase of share of wallet. And I think the other benefit that we hadn't necessarily had a goal of is we also better understood where our product gaps were, which also in turn helped the share of wallet because we could fill those gaps easier by being surfaced with less broker.
10:59What I am seeing as just as you're describing the different strategies and tactics that you used is that there's an organic evolution here that started with you being super customer centric, trying to fill the knowledge gaps, creating the content. And you had this, I guess, a feedback loop of, like you mentioned, trends and insights that were coming from the people that you were speaking to and then you're feeding it back. And then the more that you brought your customers in, and then I guess it led to, I think you said like events or, you know, customer conferences or something is the gist that I got.
11:42And then you actually got to see them talk to each other. It seems like it just snowballed from there in terms of, ah, there's something even bigger that we can unlock here and tap into by making this conversation, not just an A and B conversation, but an A, B and C conversation, which gets really interesting.
12:03Cara Gravett:Yeah, I was going to say, I definitely moved from a, we're just going to give you content to you're going to help us create this content. And then that moved into, you're going to help us create this content, but then you're also going to share with the other people in your network. And it just really became this forum and not really a forum, but, you know, a community of learnings. And it really helped us to get the knowledge out there on why and how they should use the product. Yeah. And that's tapping into something that I think is so authentically human, like innately humans have a bit of altruistic tendencies.
12:44We all do. So some more than others, we want to be helpful to other people we also like to be seen as experts we like to you know it gives us a feeling of satisfaction fulfillment when it feels like not only are we helping someone else but we're using our expertise to do so so it's i it feels like you've tapped into that
13:08Cara Gravett:with this community yeah and i think you want to hear from like-minded people you know i think there's so many companies that have capitalized on this, right? You think of things like Angie's List, or you even think of things like TripAdvisor. And I think reviews is a big piece of this as well. That's kind of that user generated content. But when you can get it from people that you trust, and those are the people that are usually in your, I don't want to say like minded, but usually in that area where you know, they're an expert, you want to be able to copy that. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's why that works so well in very similar to what you created at Expedia with this tap group, right?
13:53These like strategic travel advisors is that you found these individuals who were those experts who were trusted and they became a voice of the product, basically.
14:05Cara Gravett:Yeah. Which is so great. And they became very good advocates. It was great. And they got something out of it too, right? It's all part of advancing their own expertise and leadership as well. Okay. So now what I want to do is take your case study and turn it into a playbook. So let's say that I'm a product marketer with a, obviously with a product, but with a goal of trying to engage my customers and create community around them. And you're my coach for this. You're going to coach me through this exercise. So what is step one? What's the first thing that I should do? I assume I'm starting from nothing, but I do have customers who are, you know, love the product.
14:54Cara Gravett:I think the first step is, what is your intention, right? What are you trying to solve? What is the business goal that it's tied to? Really start with that because a community that's built around education or product adoption or advocacy are going to all look a little bit different, right? And so you want to figure out like, what's that, what's that core goal that you want to think about? For example, when I was working at Zen Planner, which is one of the clients that I've consulted with, they're a fitness and wellness company, we created a community of fitness owners that use our marketing features that we have.
15:35Cara Gravett:And we invited them to talk about growth and marketing strategy. And we did some, you know, feature plugs and really helped them kind of overcome any challenges with the product. But the thing that worked really well there is owners started learning from other owners in terms of what they're doing in terms of marketing and strategy. And so, you know, an owner in Minneapolis, could learn from an owner in Los Angeles, and they could say, here's what I'm doing to drive more signups. And it felt, you know, coming back to the same tap example, there's that trust there. It felt like you're getting it from experts.
16:10Cara Gravett:And so that worked really well. And I think that's where sometimes teams can go wrong is they start with the community. Let's build a community and not necessarily with what are our goals for the community. So that's, that's my first step. Get clean. They jump, they jump right in, start building, which, you know, got to give them props for eagerness. Yeah. And you know, we do that in the marketing world, right? We want to move fast. And so it's not a matter of moving fast. It's just a matter of moving fast in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. And being clear on what we're doing this for, because as you're building the community and building out whether it's incentives or the methods by which you want the community to engage with one another.
16:57All of that can reinforce whatever your goal is. So that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So assume I'm building a community. I've got my primary goal, what I'm trying to do with this community. What comes next? Your audience. Who do you want to be in your community?
17:15Cara Gravett:Like who exactly ends up for? What problem are they trying to solve? The more specific here you can get is the better. I like to say, you know, niche drives relevance and relevance drives engagement. So when people feel like, hey, this is for me, they're so much more willing to show up and participate. And so start small and then build from there. Okay. So that might be a little counterintuitive. But to actually start really niche, you could actually see a bit more traction with that. Is that what you're kind of saying from the beginning? Yes, I think that it gets into when you start small, you have a better understanding of what the community needs.
18:05Cara Gravett:And then you can build it out from there. Okay. Okay. So instead of all customers, it's like, no, no, no, no. There's very specific segment of customers. Maybe start with that first and then slowly start to build and expand from there. Yeah. There's a few different studies on this. I think there's an HBR study and some others that really talk more about these niche markets. I think if you're just trying to get marketing messages out, we're just trying to get things out. A broader community is fine. I still think as a product marketer, you need to be able to speak to your ICP in a way that's not too broad.
18:42Cara Gravett:You know, they need to know that you understand them. But I think when you're building a community that's more about some other type of business goal, really starting small is the way to go. Got it. Okay. So as soon as you figure out who it's for, how do you decide where the community should live? It's a good question. You definitely need to think of the right channel. And this comes down to the behavior of your audience. You want to understand where they're already spending their time, where are they already engaging? It can be webinars, forums, messaging apps, even in person. You know, we did that at Expedia, as I mentioned.
19:22Cara Gravett:But the goal is to reduce friction. You want to meet them where they already are, not try to get them to go elsewhere. Okay. And then quick follow up to that. I hope this doesn't go off in too big of a tangent, but when you're doing some of that research of figuring out where they already are, hopefully you have it already, but what if I don't have that already? What's a good way to run some experiments or where can I do the research to figure out where they engage? Is it, okay, I don't want to feed you. You tell me, where do I go? Yeah, I mean, I think it varies. And that's why you got to think of that customer behavior.
20:03Cara Gravett:You know, it could be something as easy as, you know, doing some desk research and really finding out like, you know, the travel advisors, for example, you know, they attend these particular events. And when they're at those events, we want to pull them into some private events. It could be, you know, you start there. It could be selecting an audience. and then interview or sorry, not necessarily interviewing, but surveying them. Like what, where do you engage? Right. And then you can get some of that information up front and then, you know, you kind of iterate on that. You test a little bit. Sure.
20:39Yeah. Okay. So assume that I found my place, I did my research and I found my place where my community is going to live. So what do I do next?
20:49Cara Gravett:I like to treat the community like a product. So pilot, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but I'll just do a little bit of recap. You know, pilot with a smaller group first, so you can really understand what the learnings are. You can test different formats, different cadences, and really find out what drives engagement. And then you can iterate from there. I think the key thing is, is like, what are they actually doing versus having in your head what you expected them to do? Because sometimes those two things are not always the same. Yes. Oh my gosh. And you made me think of something else too, just as you were talking.
21:22So at the very beginning, you told me that the first step should be to make sure that I have an intention and a goal with what I'm trying to do with the community. I think, and maybe this comes out in the pilot, or maybe it comes out in some of the research that you do, but you also have to make sure that your goal with the community isn't like an indirect conflict with what your community members' goals are in joining the community? Because it has to somewhat, I'm guessing, this is a hypothesis, but I'm guessing it has to somewhat align. Like if I'm thinking back to your Expedia example, the community members were trying to learn and your goal was to educate, right?
22:02So not only were you educating them, but then they were educating each other because their goal was to learn. So I'm thinking in like a similar situation, like we should probably uncover some of that.
22:15Cara Gravett:Making sure that their goals are, it resonates, right? You're so right. I mean, those two things have to be aligned. What I will say though, is at Expedia, our goal in a nutshell, it's really to expand share of wallet. Yeah, because that wasn't necessarily the goal for advisors. I mean, the goal for advisors, they want more revenue from their clients and they want to use a tool that is the most efficient. but getting sending us more share of wallet was definitely not theirs and so that's why we felt that one way to get you know this is based on data and kind of some voice of uh customer stuff um but we felt that a better way to get that share of wallet was based on education and sharing and so that's how we that's how we tied our business goal to what the goals of the audience are because they have to be the same.
Read the full transcript
23:07Cara Gravett:I mean, you can have some secondary pieces, but if you're talking about something over here and they don't care about it at all, that's not going to work. Yes. Yes. So there's the business goal of why we're doing this. And then there's the motivations behind why should I join? That's kind of a level deeper than everyone's honestly, genuinely, with the most integrity possible. Everyone's out here just trying to make a buck, right? But a level deeper than that. When we're igniting our passions and using our talents and skills, what is that motivating factor, that more intrinsic motivating factor?
23:50It sounds like you were able to uncover and tap into that. So now I'm moving on to, So, you know, I'm ready to launch my community, but how do I measure to make sure that it's actually working?
24:03Cara Gravett:It's a good question. So you want to look at participation. Are people showing up? Are they engaging? But not only participation, because sometimes people show up and, you know, maybe they're not really engaging. So I also think about the quality of the engagement. You know, what are the conversations like? What are the themes that are coming out of those? For example, when I first launched between launches, which I think sounds so funny, launch between launches, but I ran a survey to the audience to find out more about what they cared about because I had ideas. I'd been kind of thinking about this idea for a long time when I was in-house because as a leader, oftentimes you get into a senior leader position in an organization and you're maybe one of two.
24:46Cara Gravett:And so it's really nice to have an audience that you can go bounce ideas off of. And so I had some ideas in my head in terms of topics I thought would be really interesting, but I wanted to make sure my audience would think those are interesting too. So I started out with, you know, a couple of things that they could just select and then I, you know, opened it up and then I got additional information. AI rated really high on that list as, you know, it's the buzzword in the industry at the moment. And so that allowed me to understand the topics so I can select speakers moving forward, you know, topics the audience really wanted to dig into.
25:23I mean,
25:24Cara Gravett:at the end of the day, when you're thinking community, if members feel that the topics are relevant, that's when they'll keep coming back. Got it. Yes. It's almost all, and I think you mentioned this at the beginning, right? You talked about treating community like it's a product and you're in looking at the, what you're suggesting of how to measure and then maintain engagement. You're doing a lot of that, like product adoption and product usage, you know, you know, measurements. So that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So I also love that in your story, the community became self-reinforcing once these advisors started actually helping each other out.
26:08So talk a little more, a little bit more about that and why it's important.
26:13Cara Gravett:Yes. I think that's when you really know that it's working or not. Peer-to-peer support for me is the unlock. One thing, it reduces the dependency on the organization to always, you know, create every interaction. And I think we talked about this earlier is it builds a lot more trust and credibility because it's really, you know, the experts and the members that you see as peers getting that kind of flywheel of conversation going. And so, yeah, I think that that's one of the biggest unlocks is when you can get them talking with each other and sharing. I love it. And that'll just continue to give you even more ideas of how to further engage and keep the adoption growing.
26:59You mentioned AI earlier that you had fielded, you did a little bit of research, surveyed the prospective members, and AI was a hot topic. So on the subject of AI, because we can't have a podcast without talking about AI these days. So where does AI fit into a community driven strategy?
27:21Cara Gravett:I think AI can play a really helpful role in terms of enabling, being an enabler. I think this is the way many PMMs are using AI in general, but it's great for things like summarizing feedback or identifying patterns across conversations or even helping with the communication and content. But the core thing to community is human connection. So we just can't lose that. You know, we don't want to allow, we don't want AI to replace that. That's what really makes the company or company community valuable. Another benefit of AI and communities is the insights that come out of the community. They can become a content strategy on their own, shaping how the company shows up in LLMs and making it easier for your prospects to find you.
28:12Cara Gravett:That's a key piece that I think the more that we can get out, the more testimonials, more case studies, the more information we can get out of those groups. We can, you know, feed them into the LLMs and make us much more discoverable. you just mentioned what i think is going to be like a bombshell of eagerness now every company is going to want a community with like wait what we can show up in llms what did she say like i'm sure there's another session on how to do that but but but that's that's how i've been thinking about it yeah no i think you're absolutely right because in this world, like everything sounds, it's a little like too polished.
28:54Everything sounds a little too perfect. And I think, you know, the cessmeter is like, who is that? Can I trust this? Like, did you actually do this? What is this? So it's hard to trust what's in front of you with all this AI stuff. And I love that you re-articulated that human connection is the whole point of all of this. So while AI can kind of help you get going, maybe do some standard, you know, a few sections of the launch activities, or as you pointed out, do some of the analysis of, you know, customer engagement, do not have AI engage. Don't do it.
29:36Cara Gravett:In fact, even in between launches, I don't record the calls. And I do that for a purpose, because I want people to feel comfortable sharing examples of what's going on, you know, and sometimes I think, oh, I really wish I did at least transcribe it so that I could like automatically like pull up the themes. But I'm here with my pen and paper writing down notes that old traditional way. Yeah. Good old fashioned. Yes. I love it. Okay. So when I launched my community, I guess, what should that launch actually look like? I know you mentioned pilots, which is very helpful, but where do they fit into the picture when it comes to like a broader launch?
30:16Cara Gravett:Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think this is sometimes where things can go awry. You know, some teams try to go too bad too fast. So I think of a pilot as a launch. Maybe it's not as big as a tier one launch. You know, if you think of your product marketing tiering, but it's really like, you know, get it out there, start small, focused. you know, we talked about, you know, around that specific problem or kind of goal, really to give them a clear reason to show up and then treat it like a product. So test and learn, see what drives engagement, you know, where it's best to show up. And then when you start seeing people kind of showing up consistently and contributing, that's when you expand.
30:59Cara Gravett:And the nice thing about that is oftentimes you get your early adopters, you know, oftentimes there's people that first join the group can become your champions and then they can help you grow. Yeah, my big takeaway in what you just said is that to, and this goes back to like tracking the metrics and success is to track for consistency in usage and when you're seeing a good consistency, that's kind of an indication that you're ready for the next level of scale. So I really love that. Okay, last topic or last question for you on this topic, Cara. What's one piece of advice that you have for a product marketer who is on the path to creating a community around their product?
31:51Cara Gravett:Start with the problem. You know, make sure that you're focused on what that problem is. You know, we mentioned earlier, sometimes the company and the audience can have kind of different problems. Just make sure that those are the same. You can have secondary business goals out of that, but make sure that those are the same so you can build that relevance. And don't think you have to go too big too fast. I think, you know, all audience, I mean, it really depends on your audience and what your goals are. You know, if you have 200 ,000 travel advisors, you know, you might be able to go bigger than if you're starting something like my between launches community, right?
32:28Our goal is to have these conversations, but test and learn and go big when you've got the right engagement. Yeah. Okay. I love that. Start with a problem. Okay. Well, this was so insightful and, like I said, so timely for everything that I'm seeing. And I think product marketers are kind of itching to get at more connection with their customers, especially given how everybody's bombarded with AI. So there are so much to learn here from you, Cara, in your case study about community. And you've just repeated success with that. So thank you again for sharing with us.
33:10Cara Gravett:Thank you. All right. Okay, so now it's time for the next segment of the show. So this is the messaging critique. this is where we get to be product marketing experts and analyze real world marketing. And the fun part is, as my guest, Cara, you get to choose the company that we look at. So I'm going to start with some ground rules. You want to try to pick a company that is one that you either are the target audience or you know the target audience really well. It wouldn't be fair for me to analyze the messaging of like a food and beverage company because I have no idea. I know nothing about that.
33:49So once you reveal the company, then you're going to tell me a little bit about what's popping out at you in terms of what's working really well with the messaging and then what you wish the PMM would have considered differently. And then we'll iterate and brainstorm a bit on how the PMM could take it to the next level, whether that's a creative campaign content or just make their messaging super punchy. Sounds good. All right. So reveal who it is the company we will look at today.
34:19Cara Gravett:So I have selected Maven Clinic. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but I'm very passionate about what they do. I wouldn't say I'm their direct audience, but kind of their downstream audience. OK, I'm going to Google them really quickly. So it's Maven, Maven Clinic. Is it just Maven Clinic dot com? Yes. is this so on their website at least how they present themselves to the world looks like evidence-based women's and family health care is that right yes okay okay okay great so for those of you who want to follow along um do you want to tell us a little bit more about like what they do obviously they're a health care clinic of some kind yeah they're digital health clear yeah i can't say health care today uh they're a digital health care platform that are focused on women's and family health.
35:12Cara Gravett:It's offered through an employer benefit. And so I would say the direct ICP is more tied to the HR benefits leader versus the employee, but they still do market to the employees as well. Interesting. Okay. So target customer then is more of the HR benefits of, you know, good size, medium to enterprise sized employer. So what's popping out at you about the messaging? What's working really well? I think they do a really good job of balancing emotional storytelling with business impact. I think, you know, there's a lot of women's topics around fertility, around menopause or paramedopause or anxiety.
36:03Cara Gravett:And it's, it's, it's family health and women's health. But they do a really good job of that storytelling in terms of how they do improve a lot of clinical challenges, as I would say. And then they also talk about the business and back to the HR leader. Got it. Okay. So I'm on their website right now and I'm just trying to like dig through just to get a stronger sense of like what that actually looks like. As I'm scrolling through their website, is there something like big that kind of points to that, you know, storytelling that they do? I mean, I've seen a lot of like women and family, like, and I think that repetition, you know, kind of works really well for who they're trying to make this for.
36:50And then they have kind of this like tile of, it looks like topics that I think you mentioned. Is that, is that kind of what you were getting at with how they're, the different topics and how they kind of like build on the storytelling?
37:04Cara Gravett:Yeah, I think it's more in kind of the why Maven. And if you look at, you know, I probably went beyond their, their website and looked at a few different things, but, um, you know, programs that they have, it really goes into the fertility and family, family building. Um, it, it, and so it does speak a little bit more to the challenges that these audiences face. Um, and so I think that's where this comes together more so. Got it. Yes. Okay. So they are, while they are speaking to kind of like the HR representative, they're still able to be very convincing around why this is so meaningful to their employers or sorry, employees.
37:52Cara Gravett:Yes. Because I'm even reading just on the like fertility and family building page. It says guiding members on the shortest, most affordable path to a healthy baby while maximizing your benefits dollars. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. They speak to both of those, which I think is really, really great because they're speaking to what the employee wants to hear, you know, in terms of what challenges or health options they might be struggling with. But then they also speak to that ICP of the HR. Totally. And those are two very different audiences to speak to. Yes. And this topic, well, some of these topics anyway, some of them are very sensitive.
38:41Yes. So being able to do that in a way that isn't a turnoff is definitely a win. Sure. So, yeah, I'm definitely liking the storytelling here. Okay. And tell me something you wish the PMM would have considered differently.
39:00Cara Gravett:This is going to sound a little contradictory to what I just said, but I think that, you I mentioned, I think they do a good job of balancing the emotional storytelling with the business outcomes. I think where they can get, where they can up-level and enhance is tailoring it more to a direct ICP. So to your point, you know, you mentioned them on the page, they're talking to both the employee and they're talking to the HR leader. And I think that that's good, but it feels like a lot at one time. And I think it dilutes the message if you're coming just as an HR leader. Which is probably the bulk of what they're getting.
39:39Cara Gravett:Yes. Yeah. And so I think that, I mean, they do have a tab for employers where I think they do this a bit better, but I feel like if that is your true ICP, then that should be front and center on your homepage, on kind of your solutions page. And so I think that's where they can do better. I mean, they have a lot of the content already. It's just maybe structuring it in a way that is a bit different. Yeah. Well, it sounds like maybe they need to rebuild their message house so that that top level messaging is more for the ICP. And then they can sprinkle in, they can start to introduce the more individual employee messaging down at the lower tiers of the.
40:25Cara Gravett:yeah or have it you know different tabs i mean they do have the employer tabs so i think they're they're going for it but i think that and i don't i've never worked for this company um oh of course yeah i don't want to add that in detail but i feel like from an external perspective their core icp is the hr leader so i would have everything geared toward that and then have a small inlay or tab or whatnot for the employees. So kind of flipping the script around a little bit. Exactly. Rather than straddling the two, just pick one and go for it. Yeah. Okay. What would you do to take this to the next level?
41:05Cara Gravett:Exactly that. I would kind of change that structure a little bit, really focus on the ICP. I, going through the website, you know, this might not be the technical health terms, but, you know, you have business outcomes And then you have what I call kind of clinical outcomes. You know, the clinical outcomes are like, you know, we increase fertility by X percent or those sorts of things. And how do you ensure you're talking to your ICP about the item that they care about most? Right. And yes, maybe some clinical ties into retention. You know, I can think of it when I was at Expedia, we had a women in the workplace school.
41:47Cara Gravett:and so I could see things around fertility like kind of being a secondary signal. But I think it's really getting clear in terms of when I, another story. When I was, so I was in sales before I went into product marketing. And one of the reasons I went into product marketing is when I was leading a sales team, they would take what marketing gave them and it might have six things on it, right? And the great salespeople would take that six things that marketing had and they would narrow it down to three to talk to their clients about the three things that they knew their clients care about. And I would say kind of the mediocre kind of salespeople would just go and kind of read off the slide.
42:31Cara Gravett:When I was in this meeting, I would just see people's eyes glaze over, right? And so sometimes I think when it comes to messaging, whether it be in a deck or whether it be on a website, less is more, right? Less is more. 100 % on what they care about. And I think that they can be a little clearer here. Oh, yes. And that's such a great example. And I think you're so right. Like if I'm, you know, just revisiting their website, it does, it does get a bit like repetitive. And there is, there is kind of a lot here, like they've got and I'm trying not to critique on like design, because I'm not a designer.
43:08What do I know about website design? Nothing. So but you're right, It is kind of like, it's a lot for, it would be a lot for me, even if this was all like product marketing, like if this was a product marketing company and it was the same like volume of content, it's like too much, it's putting too much ownership or onus on the customer to have to figure out what am I, you know, what do you do? What do you offer? Et cetera. So yeah, I think that's a really strong call out. Well, still they, they've got the, they've got the foundation. Maybe it's just rearranging a bit and focusing in on the ICP.
43:53So shout out Maven Clinic. I think, you know, you guys are on the right track and excited to see how it iterates.
44:02Cara Gravett:Yes. I'm actually just excited to see how this company, you know, how they perform going forward because it's something that I'm very passionate about. So I just kind of keep that. Oh, I love that. We're rooting for you, Maven Clinic. All right. So Cara, one last thing I like to make space for on the podcast is a moment of gratitude because in product marketing, none of us get here alone. We're always learning from each other, building in of each other. Well, I guess we're a community of our own. So before we wrap up, I just want to say a genuine thank you for all the work that goes into putting this episode together and all the time that you've spent and your generosity and sharing your expertise is so helpful.
44:46So thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to have you on the show.
44:49Cara Gravett:Well, thanks for having me. Yes, of course. And then likewise, I'd like to turn it around to you and give you a chance to give a shout out to a few PMMs who have shaped your career and brought you to, you know, the successful point in your career that you're at today. I love this question. Honestly, one of the things I love about the product marketing community is how open everyone is. People are always willing to share. I've reached out to different people about my consulting work when I was thinking of picking that off. I've gotten, you know, ideas from people, just really kind of understand, other people's career progression.
45:28And I feel like everyone has this mentality of like,
45:32Cara Gravett:we're in it all, we're all in it together and like, let's help each other. And so, you know, that's a big part of why I started between launches, a very small but mighty group. And I feel like I learned something from that group every month. And we're even starting to get a little bit of traction in our online, our LinkedIn group. So instead of just calling out one or two people, I'd like to really call out the collective PMM community that had the biggest impact on me. Is that a cop out? Do you feel? No, not at all. Not at all. I love it. Yeah. I mean, there's so many great ones out there. Way too many to list for sure.
46:13I know I 100 % and I just shout out to listeners out there to check out the between launches community to get a sense of what Cara is talking about here and get a piece of some of that goodness that you're getting that you know the sounding board and a place to go and get feedback share ideas um I think that's you know just it's such a value add um and it's the whole you know It truly is part of the definition that you laid out. It's just at the start of the episode for what a community is. All right. So my last question for you is where else can we access your expertise? Is it best to just find you on LinkedIn?
46:55Cara Gravett:Yes, that's probably the best. I try to put some thought leadership content out there. Between Launches community is there. Feel free to give a connect, DM. I'm usually pretty quick at following up. yeah I'd love to love to get to know you awesome again thank you so much Cara and hey PMM listeners if you like this episode please share it with a PMM friend and I would be so grateful if you would leave a review or hit subscribe it helps tremendously with our reach thank you so much for coming with us on this adventure today I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey
47:40Keep pointing round.
From the publisher
Everyone seems to be talking about community right now, but what does it actually take to build one that people want to be part of? In this episode, Cara Gravett joins us to unpack why community matters more than ever in a landscape full of polished, AI-generated noise, and why belonging can be far more powerful than attention.
Cara brings deep experience from Expedia, where she worked across product, partners, and revenue, helping shape growth in complex B2B ecosystems. She now advises companies on how to make product marketing more strategic, and also runs Between Launches, a community built for product marketers to learn from one another and grow together.
In our conversation, we explore the difference between an audience and a true community, why smaller and more intentional groups are often more effective, and what Expedia’s Travel Agent Affiliate Program can teach us about building something genuinely useful. Cara also shares a practical lens for approaching community strategy without the fluff.
We also touch on where AI can support community building, where it falls short, and why human connection still sits at the centre of it all. Plus, in the messaging critique segment, Cara breaks down Maven Clinic’s positioning and shares a smart reminder about the value of sharper audience focus.
LINKS
Messaging Critique: https://www.mavenclinic.com/
Connect with Cara:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-gravett/
Connect with Elle: