Master Your Up-Market Strategy Like A Unify PMM

30:02And lastly, report. So like how how do we succeed? Where are the room for optimization? Where are there maybe like, you know, hints and signals of success that we can double down on? So really like having that analytical, like look back where you can start to predict where you're headed next. So that's really just that research, refine, ready, report is how I like to think about it. I love this as a marketer. I love a good alliterative framework. So good. Okay. So basically these are your, this is your playbook, right? These are your four steps. Step one, research. Step two, refine. Step three, ready.

30:39And step four, report. So I want to put a little bit more, you kind of, you summarized already, but I want to put a little bit more action into some of these for the PMMs out there, maybe, or just like a quick like definition. So if your step one is research, like just give a good like definition of that for me, or maybe like bullet point list out, like some must haves for the, for the research phase. yeah um i always think like research is like best done like it's like a symbol everyone knows but like qual and iquant is so both so important like everyone like a lot of firm folks are like oh like we should just go like you know run like analysis of like our salesforce data and like now it's easier than ever with ai you can do that but to your point earlier like there's so much value that can be derived from qualitative conversations like going out and speaking to a champion like asking them what's working, what's not, and really double-clicking into the questions or hypotheses that you have, testing what you have.

31:37I think that's so critical today, especially in this over-AI world. The more you can get into real life and IRL and just start to talk and understand where someone's at, that is so impactful. Also, another hack, I love conversational intelligence tools like Gong, We as Attention, now at Unified. They are so valuable for me to just be like, I can query an agent and say, like, tell me, like, you know, of calls with enterprise companies, like, what are the most common, like, 10 pain points that have come up, like, aggregated across calls? And, like, that used to be, like, us just, like, going out there and, like, combing through, like, calls or, like, asking an experienced salesperson and, like, the fact that you can be so much faster and actually so much more, like, precise is, like really helpful.

32:26So it's, it's unbelievable. So I actually like, can't even imagine like the world, like, like it's crazy. Kids these days don't know. But I think it's a good thing long term that we'll have like, Oh, like we've seen it done and we know how we got there. So we have the ability to like, I think that's why I'm like, I'm like, I'm busier than I ever have been. But like, I'm also like, I'm more productive than I've ever been, but also I'm like working more than I never I ever have. And it's because I think it's because I'm like, oh, wow, I can go do all this stuff that used to take me like a month in like a week or a couple of days.

32:59So a very interesting time we're in. Oh, 100%. Absolutely. It's not slowing down either. Okay. So I love this for the step one for research. And I just want to throw out there one more time that the win-loss program is such a good, like just always on. It should be an always on program. That's something you shouldn't stop doing. So, okay. All right. So then step two was refine. So if I've done step one, I've done my research. I have both qualitative and quantitative. So what do I do with this step two with refine? Yeah. Like usually like when like I've like run analysis, you're like turning that into like some sort of like a readout, even if just like to like aggregate the information or like consulted the information in a way that makes sense of like, okay, like here's what I went out and did.

33:49And here's like the key insights across these different findings. Yeah. Some of the findings, of course. Yeah. So what did you find in this analysis? What are those critical things? And then like starting to piece that together. It's like, okay, if we know X, Y, Z about like our enterprise buyers, like we know they value flexibility. We know that like the executive, like they've been, like they're in like long-term contracts with like these tools that they hate or whatever it is. And like, Oh, like, you know, the executives are the only ones who are actually going to like move the needle here.

34:19Like, how does that inform how we message and position? Like, and really, okay, well then we know, like, this is the spice of the market that like our positioning, like, this is like the perfect competitor, like incumbent to or like profile of organization that we want to go after, like your ICP in that sense, the personas that make that up and like really start to like, you know, really like sharpen how you view the market and who you're going after and then like turn that into okay like we believe this is who we're going after here's what is about them and here's what we can offer them okay like now let's like do kind of like the more fun part of like how do we message to them in a way that's compelling and like start to like both in a way that's like really clear but also like that's punching biting like grabs you and like really rest will resonate with that persona and then like also taking that to make sure you put it in front of some folks which is the critical stuff that's easy to skip, but like not only just like, you know, sharing it with the executive team and getting nods, but like really, and this makes it easier to go to the executive team too and say like, hey, I had 10 conversations with like leading like three piece of finance and like this, they all agree that this is the most compelling narrative and thing for us to do.

35:30It gives you so much more gravitas because like messaging as you, I'm sure you know, but as better than anyone else, like it's like so hard because everyone has so hard no one's right right like it's just like a very difficult thing that it's so apparent it's so known and out there and like so wrangling like the more you can like back it up with like hey i've actually gone out and got feedback on this adapt adapted and learned and like apply that back this can be really helpful so i love it i love it i'm gonna um i'm gonna call out a few a few things because the refine step is loaded. There's a lot to do in your step two of refine because now you've done all the research, but you're turning it into a kind of like a findings readout report for your stakeholders.

36:16But then as part of that, you're kind of building the strategy along with it because you're matchmaking your findings with the opportunity and what basically your product's capabilities and how that's going to show up in terms of messaging. And you're also saying, and by the way, we've already done this message testing for this new messaging. Here are the findings of that too. So it's a lot to do in the refine step, but I think it's good that it all happens together in the same step because it's a very natural way to do all of that activity. Yeah. Such a critical one too, right? Like that is like PMM's like opportunity to shine is in that refined pillar, right?

37:08Like everything like, you know, other functions are doing, but like PMM's ability to like shape and sculpt and like, I can actually turn that into something that's going to resonate is like, I think it can be a superpower for PMM and see if you can get it right. Totally. Totally. I'm going to shamelessly plug a couple of my other podcast episodes here that I think will be super helpful for PMM. So one is Kevin from Fletio. His case study is actually he works at a company called HIMS for a little bit. The big healthcare conference everyone's familiar with. Yeah. So he, in his like case study, he talked about how he did this like message testing kind of like a workshop with executives and stakeholders and just his method for that was really helpful.

38:02So I just want to like shout out to anyone who may be like, you know, wanting to, as part of their refined step, do like a little like messaging workshop with your stakeholders. That was a really good one. Another one is earlier on in our conversation, you mentioned doing like some competitive, you mentioned alternatives, competitive alternatives. And I don't know if that would be part of your step one or step two. Like, I don't know if that'd be part of your research step. I think maybe it would be. So I should, maybe I should, this should be a plug for like the step one in the research. I have another podcast episode with her name is Mindy from Klaviyo.

38:40So she built a repeatable system for exactly what you described, Quentin, as like looking at the pains of your competitors and building like a system around how you speak to those pains from a competitive objection handling, basically. So I think like maybe the research bit obviously happens in your step one, but maybe as part of your refine, you're starting to build out some of that messaging and you're, you're considering those alternatives, those competitive alternatives, like as you already pointed out and I'm validating what you said with another professional in the business. She, she does it the same way.

39:22So plug for Mindy from Klaviyo. That's another really good episode. Yeah. Kevin and Mindy, I'll have to check both of those out. But the messaging workshops are awesome. I think like that's such a good way. Like, again, the messaging thing, like the hardest part of messaging is getting buy-in. Like that's why we'll always. It really is so true. That's how it gets watered down. And you can build out this perfect messaging that's so good for your buyers and the buy team. And then you get some executive coming in. Yeah. And those workshops, like which I don't do enough of. And I think they're so like, they obviously like you have to get everyone on the calendar and take their top, like very about their expensive, like meetings with like a time.

39:58standpoint, but the fact that you can get everyone agreeing and like also just be part of the journey of like, hey, we started here. This is what we said. Based on what we said, here's where we ended up. Like that allows us to like all connect and like have less room to like continue to like, you know, spur like, you know, iterate or just like provide feedback throughout that process. Yeah. I think what's really beneficial for you is that just as a founding PMM, I'm making a little bit, a few assumptions here. Maybe this is all wrong and maybe it's more like varies from situation to situation, but you probably already had a lot of more trust.

40:33And I guess like not necessarily autonomy is not what I'm trying to say, but that trust and faith from your executive leadership that maybe some of, you don't have to do quite as much handholding with like some of those messaging workshops because you guys are probably already so tight that you're working together so um frequently anyway um and they're probably also just by nature being at a startup very close to some of the work too so i'm guessing that it's not quite as difficult to get some of the messaging buy-in maybe i'm wrong but um i agree like it's always like a difficult task i sit next to my ceo right now so that's exactly where we're at but i totally agree and like i I think, like, obviously, like, bigger organizations will, like, bring in a big, expensive, like, agency.

41:26And then they're like, tell us about your business. And, like, they go through these, like, long, expensive cycles. And so, like, having someone ingrained in their scene, like, also just, like, has a good feel for, like, how, like, your founders and your leadership team see your business and how you sell and all those different things. and also just like leaning into your sharpest like field folks too, like whether that's a CSM who sees it like are some of those successful customers or like a sales rep who just like really has it and like gets it and their message lands way better than everyone else.

41:55Like that continues to validate your work. A hundred percent. Absolutely. Okay. I don't want to get too far off track. So your step one was research. Your step two was to refine. And now step three is to ready. And like some of this is like enablement. Like what are the other like just quick out actions that I should take for the step three ready? Yeah, I think you should just view these as like three different like layers, right? So you have your like marketing mind that you're taking for this. So like it depends on whatever initiative you're running. But like in this enterprise push, right, we're going to like want to run full scale campaigns in like I'm like, unfortunately, I'll work with like a demand gen leader, growth leader, like as a partner on that front of like, OK, here's our persona messaging ICP.

42:38like here's what we want to do here's some ideas like let's get together like you can come take that and like come back with like campaign ideas we can work together on i'll work on what the messaging is and like you're going to actually think about what are the channels this is going to be most successful and what are the tactics we're going to execute on and then go out and execute those so that's like a pairing like you do that across you know social paid like uh webinars content events like all those different things like you're working with them to like take what you're doing and translating into something marketing-based, and that's going to help you drive the right leads and, like, really build a reputation in that new segment, audience, vertical, whatever you're going after.

43:17So that's the piece on the marketing side. Then you have your sales, right, of, like, okay, what does the new playbook look like? And you have to have a salesperson come with you on this journey. Like, I've done a lot of sales enablement and, like, making sure that you have, like, one of your best sellers or a sales manager who's trusted, like, working with you to build these things so you're not just like the mark pmm who comes in and tells like a sales team how to sell when they go and take it on the chin every day it's never going to resonate it's never going to like move the group so you need like a champion in the room with you who's actually going to like train on the demo and you're going to be like i'm color commentary about like hey this is the industry run after like now they're you know going to work you know all my sale like enterprise aes at the time of success is going to show you how you would demo to a medical device company like been like the nuance change and messaging that like happened so so good yeah like that's really the key piece with uh sales and then like you have your like i see it's like pitch disco demo like all those pieces getting that right is super critical last three on your like post-sale side just making sure that they have everything they need that like speak the same language know the type of companies that are going to be coming in and they are ready to support them implement like uh continue to like what are they trying to achieve a success and like how does that change from like historically how you've talked to folks terminology super key if it's going to be like new styles of businesses and making sure it doesn't feel like oh like this person knows nothing about how my business works and isn't a trusted consultant for us so yeah making sure all three of those teams like feel equipped and ready to take on the strategy you've done because if any of it falls off like you really like it's a lot of that work it's going to be for nothing.

44:57So super critical. Totally. Totally. Okay. So the three layers for the ready step are marketing, sales, and customer success or slash support teams makes perfect sense. Okay. So bring us home with step four of report. Yes. Report. This is, I mean, this one's obvious, but you're really just looking back at how performance did. And I think those three channels are the same way I like to look at this. So like, okay. Cause if, for example, if you're having success, which is like our goal was like to close, you know, a million dollars in revenue in this new vertical, as an example, like if you didn't achieve that, like you can't just point at sales, you can't just point at market, like you have to really like uncover like what went wrong or what went right, honestly.

45:39So like, were the campaigns we're running successful, did the goals we set out to achieve get achieved? So on like the content piece of the webinar, like the event, like what was like well engaged and what should we continue to double down on versus what isn't working or is none of it working and we need to like go back to the drawing board and figure that out same with the sales side of like oh our win rate is just way lower than it's been like maybe sale oh i'm seeing them sales calls they're not adopting the new talk track like oh we need to make sure like we retrain or like enforce this in like a really positive way or like they're actually not seeing success and they're churning out like maybe there's a product problem we need to feedback to the product team or like we need to like help them like equip better our CSMs to like handle these conversations.

46:21So really like, um, and that's more of like a qualitative way of like, okay, what's happening, but really starting to like, look at what your goals were across all those different channels, seeing how you stood up and then like double clicking based on like either where you're really seeing success or really not seeing success can really be used the way that I can approach this. So, so good. I like all the different like angles that you're looking at for reporting too. So one thing that I've noticed is that AI is like, obviously incredibly good at like finding patterns and, but deciding which patterns still feels like superhuman, right?

46:56And I'm curious how much you agree with that. And then also how you think AI could be changing part of your, changing or enhancing part of your playbook. Yeah. Yeah. The pattern thing is so interesting of being able to analyze data is such a... Well, it's a skill I had to learn for these segmentation analysis and probably not my historical skills that I didn't go in to get a finance degree and be on all my time in spreadsheets. So it was a learning curve to get there. But I learned a lot of that. But the fact that now I can say, okay, I want to look at based on the deals we've won, what we're the leading persona and like I can like get that data right away is like so invaluable and so fast as like an insight and like one that you want to continually build like systems to like have that always on of like surfacing trends in your closed loss data as an example, closed one, closed loss data like over time, not to be ignored is continue to do those win-loss interviews.

47:58But regardless, you should still be identifying those like with AI, like having the system set up is super critical there. I do agree though, like that's where like they're the shift is of like, okay, like they're going to show me the trends of like, oh, like, you know, 20%, like we're only win like 5 % of deals when like the champion is like a sales compensation manager. Like they're not going to be like, oh, like we need to like move, like we need to change our strategy to go after these personas that like connect the dots of like, oh, we need like the executive buyer in the room. And that's something that PMM from your context, from your like experience that you can say like, oh, wow, this trend that to me tells me this.

48:38Let me go out and quickly just like double click and do a few things and understand a bit more and like be curious. And like, we can still use AI for some of that, like follow-on analyses, but like, you're the one that's like making hypotheses and like, oh, like connecting the dots on these things that like AI naturally isn't going to do. And like, you're going to read out like, oh, this like insight without like direction is just like it's like kind of useless so like you're that like takes that and points it where it needs to go so yeah totally your judgment your opinion your discernment your empathy those are things that you can't rely on ai for um okay so you're now at unify and this is basically your kind of second time being this founding pm at a startup What parts of this playbook are you using for Unify and anything you'd like change or swap out?

49:30Yeah, I still would say I use most of this of like that approach. I think like being like research forward and then like taking time to like refine those insights into something compelling and like running the teams and reporting on success. the things I will call out is that the timeline of those has like just being in a startup has like gone from like months long or quarter long projects to like weeks long or days long. So you've got AI now. You're good. So I do think that's been like the biggest shift rather than the process itself of like, okay, like let's go look at trends to see like where there's opportunity that we're missing out on.

50:09Like, okay, great. Like we've looked at this, like, okay, what's like, you know, what is our positioning for that like doing after it so uh we're even working on like a big launch now of like okay understanding our buyers and like how we were finding it and then how are you know like i we have like a bunch of enablement sessions next week so a lot of this stays the same but like the biggest thing that's changed is the time your capabilities and the timelines but yeah we'll just continue to like be the human in like the room and like don't let yourself get lazy like i find myself doing this a lot where you're just like it would be easy just to like take what I'm found and like put it in a doc and kind of keep going but like the more you like with AI right like that just makes every easy like there's like a laziness epidemic that's going to be created out of this that like your opportunity to be like I'm not only like AI but I'm also just like I'm like almost like a dumb like manager where I'm like taking everything that's showing me and being like oh like here's my feedback or here's like my insight and like let's turn that into a plan and like really like being like a partner that way rather than just like oh letting it do the worked for me and like, because it's not going to have that like intellect that you have from being a PMM for years.

51:17And like, that's the advantage like you still have in your career against AI. Exactly. Keep your job is like your experience and your context and those different pieces. So that's what I love that. Yeah. So that's kind of love that so much. Yeah. Yeah. Your experience in your context. I love this. Okay. Last question for you, Quinson, on this topic. What's one piece of advice you have for a PMM who is currently trying to move up market working at a startup? Yeah. I think the big thing for me, like throw away everything, you know, I think it's an important thing of like, I know what we just said, how important experiences of content.

51:57But what I mean is like, Hey, your old playbooks aren't going to work. Like just because you succeeded with this here and had a ton of success doesn't mean it's going to work like over here and like that is like a really hard thing to like accept sometimes of like oh we're like oh but like this is like a track record like i'm a really successful rep and like i'm not going to change my ways because i've seen success so like not only yourself but also just like getting folks to buy into that shift is like super crucial to having success with these things so i think like that's one of the first pieces like both like yourself of like hey like if you were starting from scratch and like joining as a pmm to like with that specific initiative almost as like a contractor or hired gun take that lens so that you don't get like caught up and like oh like my biases or like i i like what like the best reps are saying and like start start to do and see kind of how that treats you i think that's really uh really important thing and like it's easy to like bias towards what's worked versus like, okay, I'm going to need to do things entirely different.

52:59So that's definitely what I would advise on that trial. Love it. Thank you so much. This is such a helpful playbook and perspective. And I am definitely going to use your 4R framework of research, refine, ready and report. So helpful. Okay. Yes. All right. So now it's time for the next segment of our show. This is messaging critique. This is where we as product marketing experts get to analyze real world messaging. And the fun part is Quentin, you as the guest of my show, get to pick the company that we look at. Some quick ground rules. You're going to pick a company, ideally one that you feel like you know the target audience really well.

53:41You're going to tell me what stands out to you as really working really well with messaging, something you wish the PMM would have considered differently. And then we're going to iterate on how they can take it to the next level. So without further ado, please reveal the company that we'll be looking at today. Yeah, we're going to be looking at Profound. Okay. For folks who aren't familiar. Is it Profound.ai? That's a good question. I'm looking at it. I think it's TryProfound.com. Oh, TryProfound.com. Okay. Try. Okay. Just for folks who want to follow along. Yes. So Profound is an AEO, GEO, which is a new answer engine optimization.

54:25It's like the new hot phrase in the AI world. So basically, how do you optimize for people who are searching in chat or Claude or perplexity, wherever they're going to do what they would usually do in Google? How do you make yourself one of the vendors when they ask, oh, I need a new privacy tool for my business or I need a new tractor for my farm. Whatever you're going in there to look for, they are a company that helps you show up within those LLMs, which is really powerful. So powerful. Okay, so tell me, walk us through who their target audience is and what stood out to you about their messaging.

55:08Yeah, and the reason I bring that up, we use them at Unify. Great. Right. We're, we, so we've been, I'm actually not, I maybe, I've gone access and gone in once or twice, but we actually have a, like a growth engineer on our team, which is interesting, who owns the platform. He's really smart. Like, I would consider him like a more, almost like a go-to-market engineer who is. So cool. Building these kind of things. So definitely a new world role and like skill set. But what the, I'm sorry, I forget where I was going. Yeah. So who, walk us through their like target audience. It sounds like maybe like growth marketer maybe could be the actual, you know, target audience.

55:54But then like talk us through the actual messaging and like what's working really well with it. Yeah. So who profound sells to as partially they're like creating their own new roles. But really, I think the focus, like as you like look more like classically in organization, like content teams, PR brand, like folks that are like helping you like show up with your content in those like any sort of SEO analysts probably will be moving like having this under their under their purview going forward. Growth marketers is another one that's definitely like search optimization. Any of those types of roles, digital marketer even could kind of fall into that world.

56:36Yeah. And then if we look at their messaging, so I'm on their website right now, tryprofound.com. And I see kind of like a, maybe like a rotating, they have marketing agents to win and then it rotates out the different LLMs or I guess like at least like the top most popular ones. And then it says reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands. What are you, what's standing out to you about there? yeah and honestly it's funny this is like the same thing that stood out to me about like and so like you know i'm in sf i'm working by like tech billboards every single day and like as a female man i'm like like i'm actually like interested in these things and like i'm like entertained always critiquing right i want to start doing good series about this eventually but people hate them and like it's a whole that's a whole nother like can of worms of like people hate the AI billboards but regardless what I like about they have stood out to me around like this key point of clarity like I think their messaging is some of like the clearest like they aren't trying to do too much I think like there's like a spectrum in messaging of like like punchiness and like creativity and like clarity and I really think they do an excellent job of just being explicitly clear about something that's really, really new, really like complex, new, like you have to like educate the entire market on what this concept is.

58:00They are doing that in a way that's very just like, Hey, this is exclusively what we do. We help marketing agents to win in Microsoft copilot. Like, okay. Like, yeah, that like peaks my interest of like, okay, you are going to help me show up in, or like helping you win in those LLMs or specific tools. So that like is something that's consistently and some of their just ads and stuff have just like impressed me on those fronts. Yes, absolutely. Okay. So what's working now? What do you think is then maybe room for improvement on some of this? Yeah. I would just say like to that point of like that spectrum of like creativity and like clarity, like there's probably a room to be like more like punchy potentially on some of their branding of like.

58:44we like even just like a strong like manifesto POV of like the future of like you know for example like I think and I'm just going through the page they might have some of this but like so much of search today is naturally just shifting from Google and storeless sources to LLMs and there's probably like a arbitrage opportunity to like be showing up in LLMs right now in a way that like will probably will not exist in five years like everyone will probably have this figured out it'll be part of like the generic marketing approach so this is like a new channel that you can go out and like be kind of like this sneaky lever for you to like have success in the market so i i would say like leaning more into like that of like this like oh whoa like they're changing like the way like they're like on the forefront of like how marketing is going to shift i think there's probably an opportunity for that but they might be doing that and other channels and like maybe like founder led marketing and stuff like that.

59:43But definitely. Yeah. But I think there's probably an opportunity to continue to do that here too. And then how would you take it to the next level? Like if you were kind of on the ground floor and like taking the, taking the good parts of their messaging and like maybe iterating or bringing it to the next level, maybe even implementing some of your playbook, how would you, you know, how would you coach them on this to, to really take it up a notch? Yeah. I think like a thing that would probably be interesting to understand. I'm just like curious about that. Like just as a marketer, I'm very curious about like how they're thinking about this role doesn't exist.

1:00:16And I think they introduced like a similar to like Clay, like they have like a marketing engineer or content engineer title that they're like leaning into right now. But naturally, like not a lot of those exist in the world like today. So like, how are you thinking about is obviously as you're thinking about growing an enterprise, you're going to have to sell to existing people who haven't done this before and aren't doing this today. So how do you convince like those folks to go out and use a tool and do a practice that they've never thought about or done before and that you're the one to do it with them, like and take them on this journey?

1:00:51So it takes I think it takes a lot of like it'll probably take a lot of education. And I'm sure they're doing a lot of really good work of this. I know like two of our team attended like a conference that they had a while back and said it was really awesome. But yeah, on that specific point, as I imagine would be going out market, I would go out and have conversations with established digital content, marketing, SEO, whatever niche of the marketing organization. I don't want to say legacy, but maybe current state marketing organization. How might view this? Who they think should own it? Who's really best fit for it?

1:01:26What skill sets do you need? What about their product resonates today versus a dozen? And like, how do you make like, because it continues to evolve both your messaging and your product and positioning to serve not not only this like new audience that you're creating, but also this like aspirational like, hey, this is where our business is going. And like we need a like a message that's going to resonate with those folks, too. Yeah, I really like the aspirational angle. And I think that mirrors to what you were thinking when you guys were kind of moving upmarket and rethinking your narrative. So, okay.

1:02:02Profound. Very cool. Shout out to any Profound PMMs. You've got some fans. And also Quentin has some really good ideas for you. So check it out. Very impressive stuff over there. So absolutely. Yeah, we love it. Okay. So Quentin, one thing I like to make space for in this podcast is a moment of gratitude because in product marketing or marketing in general, none of us get to where we are in our careers without learning from each other. So just a big, genuine thank you so much for taking the time to come on and share your expertise on the show. I really appreciate it. And then I'd also love to turn it on to you and give you an opportunity to shout out some PMMs who have made a really big impact on your career and brought you to this moment to where you are in your career today.

1:02:49Awesome. Yeah. And thank you for that. Thank you for having me. This has been so much fun. It's been fun to go through this process with you. I love what you're doing for PMMs out there. I think it's going to be like a niche role and sometimes isolated role in an organization. So creating community around this, I think, is super important. And so I love the work you're doing. So keep it up. Of course. Thank you. Yeah. Let's hear those PMMs. Yeah. So let's get them together. But the one I'll give a shout out to, there's so many great ones in my life. So shout out to all of the PMMs in my world.

1:03:21But one who actually has departed the PMM world actually is now entirely departed to a different industry. But regardless, Ani Golovko is her name. She was our director of PMM for a while at Ketrid IQ. And she has brought this really like strategic, methodical, like data-driven approach. She came from the biz ops world and like really like brought on that like research side of like PMM. The quantitative, qualitative. I love that. She was on that readying world for so long. And she was really a big proponent of in order to establish PMM and make yourself a strategic player in a team, you really have to be data-driven and curious and uncovering rocks and analyzing and doing these things without AI.

1:04:09So I learned so much from her. She was a really great manager, leader. Yeah, we have so much appreciation for that. So shout out to Ani. Oh, I love that. It's so good to have those mentors and coaches who are like in the data with you and like kind of coaching on how to look at it and view it. So good. Okay. Last question for you. Where else is it best to access your expertise? Is it just best to find you on LinkedIn? Yeah. Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I don't have a source for my knowledge or expertise yet. Feel free to connect with me on whatever knowledge and expertise I can offer.

1:04:45But yeah, happy to connect with folks. that I'm always interested in talking product marketing. So yeah, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. Awesome. Sounds good. Again, thank you so much, Quentin. This was so, so good. And hey, PMM listeners, if you liked this episode, please share with a PMM friend. And I would be so grateful if you would leave a review. It helps tremendously with our reach. Thank you so much for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you the inspiration to take in the next step of your own journey.

1:05:16Thank you.