Run Comp Intel Like an Award-Winning Klaviyo PMM

24:48I'm going to preface this by saying I am a quilter. I am not a car person. I know very little about cars. So if you were to ask me to group cars together, you'd end up with some weird, weird ways of lumping to cars together. Are all red cars the same? Probably not, right? Foreign versus domestic might be useful. I'd probably say like automatic versus stick is probably a more useful description, right? So you start to kind of walk through those potential ways that you can lump it together. But when you think about that root underlying pain, if you can really get it to be grounded in something that they're just not going to change and they're not going to give up because it's core to who they are, your model will last a little bit longer.

25:34Now, there's the chance that a competitor could like shift from one category to another because they've made fundamental changes to who they are as a platform. But that category should still stand up because it's just one competitor kind of moving and shifting around. So that's kind of how I think about like breaking it down. I'd write it down on a piece of paper. I'd probably got check it with a couple people that I know that like are more on like the product marketing side or like the sales side because those categories have to make sense. I can't just pick an arbitrary, something so insanely technical that somebody who's brand new would not understand.

26:13Like if I based it on like data architecture and infrastructure and I tried to say modern versus legacy, what does that even mean? Right. Those categories should make some level of intuition. I hate that comparison. It's terrible. Yeah. You're like, what is modern? Like, I need you to define that. So and by partially just not putting yourself, you don't, you might feel really similar to one of those categories, by the way, and that's going to be the hardest one. But one of those is going to be those competitors that kind of feel the most like you to the point of, you know, PMMs everywhere feeling like they don't have strong differentiation.

26:51you might have to narrative your way around that a little bit and find the angle that you take to say like yes you might think I fit into this category but here's a little bit of what makes us different and so I think as you start to get those categories together you start to kind of like bleed a little bit into step four which is starting to like pressure test it check with other people doesn't make intuitive sense. I would start with people that are probably like a little bit more familiar with your platform first, like a sales engineer, or somebody else on your product marketing team, just to like, gut check that that like, logically makes sense.

27:33And then you move on to like, step four, pressure test it with people that are brand new to the company. My favorite go-to brand new BDR or SDR. Who's like fresh, probably also like junior in career, most likely.

27:49Mindy Regnell:So they're the really the best person to test the, to pressure test with. Okay. Quick question before we move on to pressure testing, which I guess, I don't know if there's anything more to that story, but I love the categorization aspect of it. And you're talking about pattern recognition, which so just funny, fun connection with quilting and pattern recognition. Shout out to that. But question about when you start to look at competitors and you're putting them into categories, obviously the whole point of this is so that you don't have to look at every competitor. So how many competitors do you recommend looking at to make sure you have a good sense of what the categories look like?

28:33So I would say if you start thinking about as you're doing this exercise, you'll probably get a pretty good sense of who your tier ones are, right? Your biggest, most important competitors that come up all the time. You definitely want to make sure those guys fit. And then I would say going down to like your tier twos, the one that you know reps are going to ask you enough about that like you'd probably consider building a battle card for. And so I think those are probably where I would start. And then, you know, if you need to find different flavors or different things as you kind of grow and evolve.

29:05It's easier to do that later, but probably testing with like one or two like randos is probably a pretty good like gut check. What I do as I get a little bit further down into this process is start to make it so that it's got clear criteria so that I can write in a framework battle card like, hey, did you just run into somebody that you've never seen before? Here are the steps I would take to figure out what category they should go into. And so if you think of it as a repeatable, scalable framework, it can go really far. I got really good at, I mean, I can do it here at Klaviyo, but I've gotten really good at doing it at other companies too, where give me five minutes and I can tell you like roughly what type of competitor they are.

29:50And if you can do that and you know, like the root underlying pain of that type of competitor, then you just tell them like, like, hey, use this framework. And then they immediately have something to go off of.

30:02Mindy Regnell:Yeah. Okay, so step three is the category. Step four was pressure test. Once it's pressure tested, obviously you'll iterate as needed pending the results of the pressure test. What happens after that? So I would say that's where you wanna start to get buy-in. Definitely run it by your leadership and your sales leadership in particular so that they have an understanding of how to do it. Now, you're gonna wanna really make sure you put a little bit of positive spin on it. I would say if you have regional sales managers and regional sales teams that are going to have the most one-off players and competitors, position it for them, right?

30:42We're doing this so that your team will be well covered because I know your team is specifically going to run into the most region. They're not going to be random, them, right? You know they're going to be there, but they're going to be small and my team is small. And so I'm not going to be able to build you a battle card for every small regional player, right? And when you position it to them like that, it makes them feel more comfortable and more supported. For your global sales team, right? In most cases, I would say that's like your US based sale. Wherever your company is headquarters, those sales reps and those sales managers are probably going to be the ones that inherently like get the most love because that's your primary market and where you get things going.

31:26They rarely are going to feel the same pressure as those other teams for them. I would position it almost more as, hey, this is going to be a repeatable framework. It's going to make it easier for your reps to apply the knowledge that they have on competitor A to competitor B because they fall into the same category. So as they get really good at one competitor and they start running into other competitors in that same category, that confidence carries over. And it's almost like the good kind of copy paste. And so it'll help your reps get up to speed faster. All of those benefits and perks. I think we don't position enough of our work internally.

32:04And I know this is like a positioning exercise and to think about positioning your positioning work feels a little meta, but you should do it. I think the best product marketers and like competitive intelligence professionals are the ones that like take the time to think about each stakeholder maybe a little bit differently and make sure that when you're asking for something or presenting something, are presenting it in the context of how it's going to be the most useful, most beneficial to them, which feels maybe a little obvious once you say it out loud. You're like, yes, of course, they're going to be more likely to do something.

32:39Yeah, it's surprising the number of people who don't do that though. I think it's because nobody tells us. Somebody has to tell you and then you're like, oh, save for the light bulb. Somebody will give you that light bulb moment. You'll be like, oh, I get it.

32:53Mindy Regnell:Yeah. So follow up when you do some of those have some of those conversations with sales to get buy in and approval. Do you I mean, I would I don't know if you've done this or found it helpful, but do you tell them, hey, like we did a quick pressure test with like the salesperson, this BDR, Are this like just as an anecdote to show, I guess, like some early proof of concept for what you're proposing? And then I would say also, like, does the categories make sense to them? Like, do they feel right to that leadership group? If they feel like you should, worst case scenario, feel like maybe the categorization needs a little bit more refinement and they feel like they're generally on board with the idea.

33:36and they but they maybe feel like some of the categories are a little confusing. I've built frameworks like this more than once here. And I think sometimes it's just like you tweak the wording a little bit and you're like, ah, OK, it makes sense to leadership to like adjust it just slightly. And as long as they're good, everybody's good. And you start and kind of work top down. So it really helps to I would say like maybe even preview with like your your senior most salesperson, like your your chief sales officer or your CMO, or whoever you need to get to get like that ultimate buy in first, and then get them to let you present to their leadership team.

34:17So that can be another way to like, get your buy in faster. And again, so smartly, as long as doing it in those smaller groups, you'll you'll get the right feedback up front, and really be able to kind of work that all together. And letting them know that like, by you're doing this work, you're going to get everything else a lot faster, because it's foundational. And I think foundational work in product marketing, I know, you know, this to be true is so often overlooked, because there's just so many other things going on. But it's, it's like leg day at the gym. Not that I do leg day at the gym.

34:52I'm not really much of a gym person. But my husband tells me is very useful. And that you thank yourself later for having core fundamentals.

35:03Mindy Regnell:But I'm thinking it's true, though, one of our enablement managers literally runs a session that's called sales gym. And so that's like the thing that sticks in my mind when I think about it is like, his whole thing is like, you're going to do good core fundamentals. I really love that analogy for salespeople. I don't know why. I don't know why it just fits. It just, it feels very on brand. It's not like that inherent competitive nature that you would expect from a sales team, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've got buy-in, I guess. What does that look like then after you get the buy-in? Obviously now you have your categories.

35:39Mindy Regnell:So I'm assuming you just go build. So when you get to the phase where you're ready to start building. So when you start building, you're kind of doing two things. One, you're building out the battle cards for your framework. I actually have a template that I just, a lot of people in the CI community probably know me for at this point. I have a long tail battle card framework. So you kind of fill out this framework battle card. The framework battle card helps you understand like, what is that category of competitor? Why would somebody choose it? What are the core characteristics? How do you figure out if somebody belongs in this category, right?

36:14Write your cheat sheet of like, these are the steps I take. I go to their website. I look for X. Sometimes it could be something as simple as like, is it a technical solution or a non-technical solution? You could probably tell the difference for our open source and SaaS example earlier. Go read the support docs. Is it marketer friendly? No, it's probably in this category, right? Like there are very easy, clear ways you can kind of make it easy for somebody else. Then you have like a little section that's like list all the competitors that you know of that fall into this category. every time somebody asks you about a new competitor and you do that five minute exercise, this is where you write it down.

36:53You could eventually build like an Excel spreadsheet cheat sheet of like, here's every competitor. Here's what battle card to use. But have it on the battle card. It makes it a little bit easier. So much easier. Then you start writing out your key message of why you're different and better than that type of competitor, the key characteristics. Then you can start throwing in like your generalized objection handling, discovery questions based on that root pain. and you've got a battle card for that framework, then you can go build your tier ones, right? It's now you already know a lot about that root underlying pain.

37:25You're probably gonna use a different template because you're gonna go a lot deeper and have a lot more specifics on that competitor, but you'll have a good strong idea of like probably why you win and maybe a pretty good sense of why you lose because of those trade-offs.

37:40Mindy Regnell:So doing the category level battle cards first gives you a little bit of efficiency when then you go to the tier ones because you have a pretty strong sense of their approach already. Are you open to linking your long tail framework in the show notes for the listeners? Yeah, I've got I've actually got a presentation deck because I've I've done this once that like in a small group of CI people of like, hey, here's my framework. If you enjoy a good meme making fun of ci that's like half the deck um i mean if you can't break out like spider-man pointing at spider-man when you're trying to figure out differentiation i don't even know what you're doing i'll give you the template for that uh that battle card in terms of like that battle card framework it's all written out in like a here's what you're going to write in this section because i my excuse of staying in touch with people sometimes it's like i've got templates for days, you will find an excuse to come back and talk to me.

38:39Mindy Regnell:I love it. It's very generous of you. And I'm sure you're going to have lots of you're going to have a full inbox after people start consuming some of that. Okay, so here we've done the battle cards now. So next up, I'm sure you, you obviously have to do some kind of like enablement or roll up to sales. So I'm jumping ahead a little bit. But what does that process look like then? Yeah, so I would say that process is generally, one, you should probably do like a good competitive enablement for everybody just to introduce the framework and get them familiar with it. Also, a really good opportunity to tell salespeople, hey, we built this framework.

39:20Here's how it works. You might even show like visuals of like, here's what those competitors look like in these categories globally versus like in the EMEA region versus APAC. You could even slice it down by country and say like, hey, if you're in, you know, Benelux, you might see these. If you're in France, you might see these so that you can make it really easy for people to see that like, oh, those competitors look right. That was a step I missed. I think the training, I only showed global, which is silly because the whole reason I built it was for my regional sales team. And when I redid that same slide, but with the right competitors for them, all of a sudden the light bulbs went on.

40:01So don't skip making sure that it makes sense for the audience that you're speaking to. And then work on making sure that it's built into your onboarding, right? Levels the whole company, make sure all your sales reps, probably your CSMs know this framework, and then make sure that it's part of that onboarding process. So that rather than starting folks off with like, hey, here's competitor number one, and most companies, that number one competitor is probably going to vary by geo segment product line, you teach them that framework.

40:33Mindy Regnell:That is such an important tip that you mentioned that I could totally see myself like missing doing the enablement. And so I think it's worth repeating and making sure that I understood it right and that the listeners understand it right. So whenever you do enablement to whichever audience, whether it's a global audience or, you know, regionally or, you know, by use case or industry or whatever, which we'll get to that in minute to make sure that you give some examples of like, that are more unique to that audience. So you can expect to see these types of competitors in these categories to give them a frame of reference, because it all goes back to what you said, just a few minutes ago, around context, for your stakeholders, and who you're talking to, and giving them that context.

41:20Mindy Regnell:Because it makes them trust you more and feel like you understand them, and they'll want to use your battle cards. I have mine actually drawn out on like a two by two grid, kind of like Gartner Magic Quadrant style. So one, if you're ever going to do a two by two grid, the correct answer is the happy spot is always that upper right corner. So even if like sometimes the orientation of like you would think like hard to easy, you'd put, you know, easy to hard, you flip it. So it's hard to easy so that the happy spot is in that upper right. It just intrinsically makes more sense to people. It's a great way to explain things from an SLT.

41:57And so I have all of those logos on that two by two. And so when I have like the little kind of like just buckets around those different categories, I have a global view and then a regional view. And I'll show both oftentimes in a training. So I'm like, hey, when you look at the landscape from a global view, it looks like this. And then if you've got your like your EMEA sales team and you say, hey, here's what it looks like for me, same framework, different competitors, and it still works. And they get to see that like aha moment. I really wish I had thought of doing that like first round. But I remember I think I was getting ready to do a specific dedicated training with my EMEA sales team.

42:38And I think I was talking to somebody. And they were like, Yeah, but I don't like you don't have the right competitors on that chart. And I was like, they're like, your framework doesn't work. And I was like, Oh, no, it does. And then I realized that I just needed to show the right logos. And so I actually started by adding in the right ones, and then removing the ones that didn't matter, because there were a couple like global competitors that might show up in two out of three regions, but not the third. And so you just make sure if you're showing the chart to your third region, you just remove it.

43:08And this has kind of become like a well adopted like framework. One of my co-workers on our product marketing team who works on our segment, like go to market side of the house, was like, you know, this is probably one of the most valuable things you did. And you did it in your first like three months. And so that was kind of wild to think about that, like that, that was one of the first things I'm still using it. And it's well over two years later since I first built it.

43:39Mindy Regnell:I love that. Kudos to you. That's great. What a great almost first impression. I mean, first three months is still very early. Okay, I have two questions. And then I know we still have to move on to our next segment. So I want to quickly if I'm going to try to ask both of these questions in the same time, even though they're not exactly related. So my first question is, it's hard to think we've got so far in the conversation without really talking much about AI. So I know that we all as PMMs, look, we know that AI hallucinates. And so thus it's, it becomes a bit less trustworthy. So I'm not asking you, should we use AI?

44:20Mindy Regnell:Like, that's not my question. My question is like, under what circumstances do you think it's actually helpful for a PMM to use AI doing competitive intelligence analysis? Like when, when should I use AI for that? And when do I not and just move forward with a human touch? Yeah, so I would say, generally speaking, I'm the type of person, and I don't think this is a secret about me. I will die on the hill that I will never have 30 second battle cards. I'm not going to let AI build a battle card. It just depends on your source, your content. It tends to be wrong. There are platforms that I love, like Gong.

44:59And Gong has great AI, but I wouldn't want Gong to build me a battle card. because you're talking about using your call data. That's what your customer is saying. It assumes they know everything correct about your competitor. Your sales rep already is hitting all of the right points for you. Like at that point, why do you even need a battle card? But Gong AI can be great for finding new objection handling that belongs on a battle card. I wouldn't trust it to be the best answer, but it'll tell you what you're saying today. And then that's where you can kind of come in and say, okay, is this the best possible answer?

45:31How do we get our reps to answer those more consistently. I always use AI with a strong human in the loop. AI can be great for research. I'm a big fan of perplexity. I think it's a great search engine, but I don't actually assume that it's correct. I actually go look at the underlying source material. But I think as you're thinking about like some of the gut check on like what people, what words people might use to describe different types of platforms or like general market sense, it might be helpful. I don't personally use it, but I could see it fitting into that like, way of understanding your market.

46:06But I would say, anything that's like core and foundational, you should always like strong human in the loop, I would actually rather have this battle card framework, I built this before, like AI became like the biggest buzz in product marketing. And I look at it now. And I'm like, I would still use this framework over a 30 second battle card all day, every day. Now, could you combine AI plus this framework? I think that's where you start to unlock something really powerful. If you can really, that requires a lot more guardrails. It's probably like a whole separate conversation. But it's something that I've been working on, like finding ways to make it easier for reps to consume battle cards.

46:45Mindy Regnell:Yeah, we'll have to come back for a part two of the episode then. Ready for it. Okay, I lied about how many questions I had for you. So let's just jump to the very last one, though, because I know we still have so much to get to. So if I'm a PMM, right, and I'm building my competitive intelligence platform from scratch, what's one piece of advice that you might have for me? So if you're getting started for the first time, two pieces of advice I would have. One, definitely make sure that you go in with a clean scope. Figure out exactly what it is that falls in your wheelhouse and what doesn't. and be really clear and set expectations on what's realistic.

47:28With this battle card framework that I've built, I can cover a lot of competitors, but there's a limit to the number of competitors, even within a tiering system that like one person can support. Yes, I know that people think with AI you can support a lot more, but if you're really clear and upfront on like, hey, here's what AI does and here's what AI doesn't do very well, right? You don't want wrong information. When I think about like using AI, like generally, you're getting a collective whole of the internet. I don't really want the collective whole of the internet, right? I don't really care what one random person in G2 crowd says.

48:04They could be wrong. It's a lead. It's a way to something that you could go track down. It could be sentiment. It could be a whole bunch of other things, but you don't want to like inherently treat it as the source of truth. I don't really care what my competitor says on their marketing website. Like I do, but I don't like that's marketing polish, right? The real truth, the real heart and the real like details are in their support docs. I want that, not the rest of it. And I don't care what one other competitor says about another, right? Like that might be useful, but I certainly wouldn't want to use it to like build a battle card.

48:39So as long as you're setting expectations up front, especially around AI and how it works and how it doesn't work, I think you'll be in a better spot. And then that other piece of advice is just how do you position things, right? If you go to each stakeholder separately and you think about you're going to ask them for something, make that ask about how they're going to benefit. Hey, sales manager, I want to make sure that you're going to sign off on our win-loss program. Here's what we're going to do, right? We're going to reach out. We're going to talk to customers. It's going to do X, Y, Z. And really, we're going to validate the things that you're probably already running into during the sales cycle.

49:14But because it came directly from the customer, it's going to have additional weight. We're also going to be able to better stack rank. Now, all of a sudden, it's just not me asking a sales rep to talk to their customer. It's about what they're going to get out of it. And they're going to be much more inclined to give me what I'm asking for. And so I think that's just a technique that we can apply in a lot of different ways across competitive market intelligence and product marketing as a whole. So those are my pieces of advice.

49:42Mindy Regnell:I have come, I'm coming back to context. That's what I'm hearing for, for, from all of this is creating context, providing context, gathering context. It's a really strong takeaway. I love it. Okay. Um, I want to very quickly run to the next segment of our show, um, which is the messaging critique. So this is where we, as product marketing experts get to analyze real world marketing. And the fun part is that Mindy as the guest on my show, you get to choose the company that we look at today. So the ground rules are try to pick a company that either you know the market really well or you are the target customer.

50:21Mindy Regnell:Wouldn't be fair to critique messaging on a company that we don't know their target audience very well. And then tell me what you're loving about it, what you wish the PMM would have done differently. And maybe we'll iterate a little bit and see how we can give some advice to those PMMs on how they can take it to the next level. So without further ado, yeah, like reveal, like who's the company we're looking at today? So I'm going to give a quick story on how I came to the conclusion of this one. But we're going to talk about if everybody is not already talking about anthropic, claudable ads, you're missing out.

50:54But the reason I like it, and actually, when we first started talking about this, I had a different one in mind. But you have to do a competitive ad with a competitive person. It's just 100%. My favorite, most iconic competitive ad that I think most people would point to is like, oh, it's really clear as a hi, I'm a Mac and hi, I'm a PC. And then there was like a version of that that Google did with Pixel. And it's called Best Phones Forever. And it's Pixel and an iPhone, like being good friends. And it makes a lot of really direct stabs at iPhone, like really aggressively. But it's framed in this cute.

51:32They're best friends and they just want to hang out together. Oh, look at the phones. What I loved about Anthropic ads about ads are coming to AI but not to Claude is that they don't even have to tell you what competitor they're talking about. You already know. It is so obviously ChatGPT coded. They never make a claim. They never say that this is how ads are going to work on ChatGPT. They never mention ChatGPT by name. it's just so obvious because so many people know the experience of talking to chat gpt that you watch that ad and there are four different ads they're each a person like having a conversation with ai and trying to solve a problem and it sounds like chat gpt it's got that like validation yeah it's got that validation it pauses in weird ways that you kind of associate with having a conversation with AI.

52:32And then like in the middle of getting advice, it's giving you an ad. And I like, it's hard to say which one's like my favorite of the lot, but I think the one that's probably gonna stand out to most people is a guy is having a conversation with AI, trying to figure out how to connect with his mom. And in the middle of having this conversation, connecting about his mom and like things that he should do to be more empathetic, it starts to suggest a website. I think it's goldenencounters.com if you're looking to connect with Cougars. And like this just like look on his face. Next level, Claude registered that domain name and it actually takes you to a website that talks about Claude.

53:19And so I'm like positive it's goldenencounters.com. That is so funny.

53:27Mindy Regnell:That is so funny. I did not know that they did. I've seen that particular ad. I did think it was hilarious. That is pretty next level. Yeah, it was. I think it was pretty. Now I've got to like look up what the website was for. It's OK. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was. It was. It was definitely. Nope. Somebody has already built a version of it now. That's like the dot net. But it's. That's hilarious. goldenencounters.com and it says hello curious young cub are you looking for roaring cougars in your area unfortunately golden encounters is not a genuine business and even if it were it certainly wouldn't be and even if it were it certainly has no place when you're talking to your ai and it's just goes and it's so good i love i love how they like yeah they like spark not only is it very entertaining and funny and thus memorable and hitting on something that's I think very meaningful and that the user cares a lot about is having ads in their experience.

54:36Mindy Regnell:But taking the narrative out of the ad or the commercial itself so that you can actually engage and interact with it, like creating the domain name. I think that was really clever. Well, no, it's kind of like when John Oliver's last week tonight has like a random thing and he puts the URL up there and you know that it's going to be something wild. I feel like they took inspiration from that. But it was I think if I take one step further on what I liked about it, was it clearly upset the CEO of OpenAI. He went on a Twitter tirade. There are now tech crunch articles talking about how upset he was and how we would never do it this way.

55:15And I'm like, but they never said it was you. it's heavily implied and it's definitely FUD but like it is people's fear it hits on a root emotion of like that would be a great way for them if they were going to start building out a category of battle card frameworks yes I was about to say AI that has ads like that is a category you're no longer and it's your differentiator for that category we don't You're no longer if something is free, that's not the product or the product like that logic definitely holds. But it's a stake in the ground. That's the risk that Claude has taken by making this ad.

55:54They can't go back. 100 percent. If they ever do expect these ads to resurface in great satire. 100 percent.

56:04Mindy Regnell:Yeah. Yeah. So and I'd be very curious to see like, it'd be so interesting to be on the inside of Anthropic to see how the campaign is performing, because I've seen results in my tiny little LinkedIn network, multiple people showing up in my threads. And those are only the people who are actually openly announcing this to their network saying that they're switching. I've seen like, bye, ChatGPT. Like, hello, Claude. Like, I've seen it multiple times just in my tiny little network. Yeah. So it's like highly effective, super bold. I can get the inside scoop. I would want to be in like their CI channel.

56:45There has to be a CI channel at Anthropic. And people had to be like sharing the as soon as it hit Twitter that somebody was upset. That had to have been like a moment. and the marketing team had to have, I would have felt so proud.

57:00Mindy Regnell:Totally. I'm sure they're still celebrating. So to wrapping up two questions into one, I guess like part A of the question is, what do you wish the PMM team would have considered, if anything at all, for this campaign? And then two, how would you evolve this campaign going forward? I would say, it's hard to say that there's much I would change about the ads. I think the fact that they pre-leaked them before the Super Bowl or release them was really smart. I think the only thing that like, theoretically, I don't think they made any marketing claims. Obviously, like that doesn't mean that can't get you a cease and desist or, you know, legal nastiness there.

57:42But I think I feel like they'd have a really tough case. So I can't really find much that I would fault them. If they had named ChatGPT by name, it would be a totally different story. But yeah, I think they did such a good job. Like just gold star. this will probably go down as one of the best competitive ads that's been run. I think so, too. I think so, too. Okay, and then how would you evolve it going forward? Gosh, I would say, like, continuing to double down on that, right? There are other AI platforms out there. ChatGPT and Anthropic are not the only players. I think they're going to cause people to take sides.

58:17And if they can stay firm or maybe even, like, partner with other companies that are like-minded to form, like, a trust or like, hey, this is what we're going to do. It's kind of like if you look in certain spaces, there tend to be like patent lawsuits that are just like superfluous. They get like a patent and then they try and like shake down a bunch of other companies. Yes. Like an agreement to say like, hey, we're standing together against this. I remember seeing Shopify take a stance once on patents. And so like you could literally get a group together and say like, hey, we're making an agreement that this is like the future of ads can be better and they can like plus one what Anthropic is doing.

59:00I don't think Anthropic needs it, but I think other people would benefit and it would bring more attention to everybody. And then, yeah, that's probably where I would say like consider taking is, could you make this a movement? Could you change the way that AI works

59:14Mindy Regnell:because you were so bold and reconsider it? And it got such a strong positive reaction, Again, at least from what I could see from my tiny little sample size of a network. Same. Every product marketer, every CI person I know is talking about that right now. Yeah, 100%. Well, shout out to all the Anthropic PMMs out there. You've definitely got some fans. And great job with this competitive storytelling. Yeah, I agree. It's going to go down in history as a goat. So, okay. So, Mindy, one of the last things I try to save space for on the podcast is a moment of gratitude because in product marketing, none of us get here alone.

59:56Mindy Regnell:So I just want to give you a genuine thank you for being so generous with your time and your insights and willingness to share your playbook and your templates. Thank you. We're really, the PMM community is really lucky to have you. Oh, thank you so much. I've had a lot of great mentors along the way and great colleagues and just really that took a chance on me. I started in CI before it was a thing. So to extend that gratitude back out, there are three product marketers that really like took a chance on me very early on. Travis Bolinas was my first manager. Leo Castro was the person who hired me.

1:00:32And Stephen Meserve has been my mentor the entire time. And I would not be the CI PMM person that I am without those three. And I just have an amazing team at Klaviyo and lots of love to all of them. And special shout out to my first ever director to report Moxira who just got promoted to full like manager level from associate. So I am so proud of her and part of her career has been really special. So I could go look at all those

1:00:59Mindy Regnell:shout outs. Yeah. Oh, well, big thank you to those mentors and PMMs who have shaped who you are, because now you're making such this such big impact, obviously, for your company and your peers and the rest of the PMM community. So go mentors. Okay. Next one, this is my last question for you. Where else can we access your expertise? Is it best to find you on LinkedIn? Yeah. LinkedIn is the best place to find me. All right. Will do. Again, thank you so much, Mindy. And hey, listeners, if you liked this episode, please share it with a PMM friend. And I would be so grateful If you would leave a review, it helps tremendously with our reach.

1:01:45Mindy Regnell:And thank you for coming on this journey with us today. I hope it leaves inspiration for you to take with you in the next step of your own journey.