Sell Your Vision like a Postman PMM

24:10Like, did you actually map out that customer journey as part of preparation for the experiment or is that kind of just a happy accident?

24:20John McKiernan:no it was it was definitely intentional um and i was quite looking the head of products and myself he was in as much into the the marketing side of things as i was into the product side of things and honestly i think that's when the best partnerships happen with pm and pmm like when you just blur the lines you know like you have a shared brain but each of you then focuses on your craft it's like okay now i get it i'm going to go off and create about ideas and he's going to go off and actually implement some growth ideas. But you both need to be sort of looking at the same thing because like a customer can tell, you can tell when you use a consumer product or whatever it is, when a product has been built and then thrown over to marketing and it's just inconsistent, it's painful.

25:02Yeah, completely agree. So once you have all this great data from these experiments and this analysis and the customer conversations, what do you do with all of that information? What's the next step in the process?

25:14John McKiernan:Yeah, so that's the race car. That's when you get to get your pretty pictures out and you know my recommendation when you go through is to have no more than say two or three tactics within each bucket so one or two in the growth engine maybe two or three in the turbo boost and so forth because it keeps it again it does two things it makes it easily digestible for that sort of c-suite audience and the rest of the people around the business but two it keeps you focused as well like how often have you you know been working out as well and you're sort of I don't know, a few days pass and you're like, hang on a minute.

25:47John McKiernan:Why am I working on the landing page for something? All the time. Oh, too often. So it really just keeps you focused. The goal at the top, you've got your race car, everything ladders up, everything serves that. I love the healthy goal of the goal at the top. I'm going to steal that one. That's a good one. Okay. So once you've built the race car framework, how do you make sure that the rest of the company actually gets behind it and not just like, you know, kind of just nodding along because they don't know what else to say? Yeah, well, I was lucky in some ways. So Atlassian is a distributed company, I think first.

26:21John McKiernan:I'm in Australia, despite the weird Irish accents. The team that I was managing and leadership were all in the States in various different places and the product team were in Europe. So it was actually quite nicely set up. We have, as I said earlier on, we have this had this product called Atlas, which you can do your updates every week and then I'd embed in loom video and everybody would watch it um it became a bit of a story you know it was it was became fun for me i was like okay this week we focused completely on the growth engine and we ran these two experiments one was a disaster one was a victory we're going to implement that one here's the outcome and you just sort of bring people along and then say next week what we're going to do is focus on the turbo boost we're going to send an email blast to a certain segment we'll let you know how it goes and people would follow it like some sort of a uh i don't know a corporate corporate store.

27:08Yeah. And you know what I've learned in my career anytime I would, um, I didn't do it obviously because I had never come across the race car framework until I met you. Um, and I'm so glad that that happened, but what I would do though is share. I I've definitely run experiments and I would share that with my stakeholders. Hey, I'm going to run this experiment and then follow up, you know, sometime later to say, Hey, remember when I said we are going to run this experiment. Here's what we learned. And here's what we're going to do with the information. I found that when my stakeholders get excited about the experiment, sometimes before I'm ready to share the results, they proactively come and ask, hey, how did that thing go?

27:49Hey, what was the performance on that? And then the second thing that I was going to mention to that, and I'm curious if this happened to you, when you do that follow-up, when you do, well, both, both steps. first, tell them, hey, here's the experiment I'm going to run, and then do the follow-up and say, here were the results. It builds a lot of trust with those stakeholders. So now in the future, you've earned credibility that you know what you're doing, you're strategic, you've got the goal at the top of the page, so they can count on you to do the best work needed. But curious if you've had seen similar things with that earning trust and credibility with your internal stakeholders.

28:29John McKiernan:Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. And, you know, again, listening to your episode with with Hattie, the PMM and sort of selling yourself internally, that's that's kind of what happened. You know, I became known as the race car guy, which is better than sort of big bushy eyebrow guy or whatever. And it did buy me a lot of freedom. It sort of it bought me the freedom with this product. And once I'd sort of finished the project and was looking for my next challenge, it made it much easier. I was like, OK, I have kind of the freedom to go around and pick and choose this. So, you know, for the product itself, I think we got a lot more patience than maybe the other products in the accelerator did.

29:06John McKiernan:Obviously, you need to have a beautiful product, something that people love, but there's a lot more to it. I've seen great products fold that I knew could have a future if they'd just given a bit more time and if they had a bit more vision. Yeah, got it. Okay. So once you have all that buy-in from leadership and stakeholders, what comes next? You mentioned, you know, you had these frequent, you know, updates that you would send out. Is there more to the story here? No, that was pretty much it. I mean, the race car, it serves you as long as you need it. And for me, it was probably about three or four months because I think it took maybe about a year from start to end to sort of say, okay, we have successfully launched the product.

29:48John McKiernan:The growth is fantastic. The churn is low. The CSAT's really high. So we used it as a vehicle, pun intended um oh god did you leave that one um i'm not keeping it his will kill me and you know we served it for as long as it needed to do but once it was done that was it there wasn't much more needed leadership just they trust you they they trusted where we were going they knew that we had a great product they knew that we had great distribution they knew that we had an aligned vision and they left us alone they left us to execute on it and anytime that we needed help whether it was sort of budget or people and resources, we were much more likely to get it.

30:25John McKiernan:We grew the team pretty quickly. That's great. And I have a question about the videos that you would send out, the weekly videos. I think you said they were weekly anyway, however often you would send them out. And this may be unique to the situation that you were in, but how did you structure those updates? And did you have any call to action for the stakeholders who received the updates. And I'm asking because I have been in situations where I'm updating stakeholders. I'm sure lots of PMMs have felt this in various organizations. I send an email or an update. I have never sent a video, so maybe that's something I could try.

31:04But I've sent a written update and usually I'll get a response. Sometimes I get crickets, like no response. Leaders will usually respond, senior leaders. But if I'm trying to speak to maybe like a middle manager, you know, director level person, sometimes they don't respond. So what would you do if they didn't respond? Sorry, that was a lot of questions. But let me know what you think and what your thoughts are.

31:29John McKiernan:No, to be honest, in some ways, no response was a good thing. You know, you'd get in the videos, you'd get like a thumbs up or like a quick comment. Okay, great. Yeah, like that's, you know, smiley face. I was pretty informal with all my videos, I would crack the same terrible jokes that I'm doing now. I rarely had a CTA. If we needed something, we would just directly ask. But what I would do, you know, like any brand, it's a bit of repetition involved. So for example, I might say, hey, this week we're working on this part of the Turbo Boost or whatever. We can't work on this one because we only have a team.

32:02John McKiernan:It was just me and one other guy on the team at that time. So I was like, you know, if we had more people, then we could do more. And it was a nice way to just sort of keep on showing that momentum. The product is growing, but hey, we need some more people to support us as well. So I kind of use it as a, as a way to sort of build, I don't know, a bit of noise around how we need more support, more budget. And if we ever had an ask, we would just ask directly. Yeah. Okay. And one more super tactical follow-up question. When you were doing like the, maybe like the beginning of the video, this is what I'm imagining.

32:33You're saying, okay, today we're working on, you know, I'm going to tell you about the turbo boost, da, da, da, da. Do you have to re-educate on what that means? Or was everyone so plugged in that they know exactly what it means when you say turbo boost? Because they've been following along for however many weeks.

32:50John McKiernan:That's a great question. Yeah. So I did it so long in Atlassian after a while. And it was the same sort of audience of 40 leaders mostly or peers that I didn't need to. But generally, it is a good tip to do. but what I you know after the first few times of sharing it I remember the CMO sort of like commenting on it to the head of accelerator saying I think we should codify this this is something that we should do for all product launching. I love that well done. Yeah yeah it was nice it's always it's always uh reassuring on those Friday afternoons when you get the comments um and that's that's quite you know it's quite nice they're saying like this is you can never predict what the growth of a product is going to be but you can certainly put tactics into your growth engine and then have a good knowledge like this base of all of these experiments that we've run and the growth then it's just a really nice way to sort of build something that can be done again yeah right yeah okay so once you get the race car in motion just to go with well i'm just piling on the puns when are you considered done you know at what point do you look back and say all right our work here is finished yeah so technically the launch you know we got to ga uh the growth even before then before we even put pricing and packaging in was was fantastic it got better again um but it reminds me that this is something i learned years ago it's like a napoleon quote of all people where he says um i can't remember what it is but uh something like the most dangerous the most dangerous moment comes at victory and it's so true like we had launched it and in some ways we were kind of victims of our own success it had grown so dramatically and so quickly and it had gotten traction from enterprises and really what we had done was built this really streamlined plg motion and the minute that launch came was like okay we really need to catch up now and build a sales motion around this and sort of start appealing to enterprises as well.

34:50John McKiernan:So that's kind of when the race car growth framework had served its purpose and it was time to move into the next phase. I love that. Okay. Well, real quick follow-up question to that. You mentioned that you had to build a sales motion to handle the enormous, tremendous amount of interest you had. Could you not apply the race car framework also to like create a new one or a new story or whatever new strategy using the race car framework? Could it still apply? Or is the race car framework really only for like product related goals, product launches, et cetera? Yeah, that's a good question. I never really tried.

35:36John McKiernan:That's the truth of it when it came to the sales side. But to be blunt, I'm a PLG guy through and through. The sales side is less interesting to me. I always try to delegate it. But I think it could probably work. But I feel like it works better for PLG because it's just a bit more complex. There's a lot of nuances when it comes to it. And I think it's a good way to wrap it all up. Got it. Helpful. Well, either way, I am genuinely excited to try this out for myself. So I might hit you up for some tips as I'm deploying it. Okay, so I want to fast forward now in your career. So you're at Postman now.

36:13Really quickly, tell us what is Postman for anyone who doesn't know. And hopefully I'm saying it right. And then more importantly, how did you apply that same framework in your current role?

36:24John McKiernan:Yeah, for sure. Postman, awesome company. Quick pitch as well. We're hiring, including product marketing. So if anybody's interested in hearing these jokes daily, come on, come on board. Welcome. Yeah, it's Postman's an API collaboration platform. So basically everything across the entire API lifecycle, design, documentation, testing, and so on. I've been over here at Postman for just about a year now, which is unbelievable. And one of the first projects that I had going in there, which was kind of a nice way to dip my toes in the water, was Postman templates. And to give a little bit of context here as well, you know, there's a sort of misperception with Postman that it's just a basic testing tool when it actually takes care of the whole life cycle.

37:07John McKiernan:And part of the fun of the job is changing minds about that bit by bit. Templates, really effective way to do that, to sort of say, hey, backend devs, you can use the following 10 templates to do your design or your mocks, whatever it might be. And it was a similar situation. It wasn't as high stakes and it wasn't CEOs. It wasn't like a hundred million dollar ARR sort of thing but it was still something that I wanted to do in the right way and I could have just you know done the usual done an email blast or put paid ads and be super targeted towards all these personas but again we wanted to build a long-term vision we wanted to find a growth engine so that once you know attention moved on to another project we had this reliable source of traffic reliable source of signups going to templates so really it used it in the exact same way i made a few changes to it because there was parts that were more relevant but again we identified the growth engine which in our case was closer to seo because we had so many sort of so much share of voice in the market we identified the turbo boosts we identified pretty similar friction in the in the sign-up flow where people weren't getting in as quickly as we could have had so very very similar the only difference really was that it was a shorter and shorter time need and maybe did about three weeks of race car growth framework just helping to build that vision and give that patience.

38:25Oh, wow. Okay. So you mentioned a couple of differences already, but is there anything maybe more specific or not more specific, but anything that you might call out as you were building or applying that race car framework between Postman and Jira and just anything you'd call out that PMMs should look out for if they're trying to apply this framework in their roles that, you know, maybe surprised you as you were going about it the second time in a

38:51John McKiernan:totally new environment no i mean i think the best advice i can give is to treat it like a pick and mix uh shop i don't know if you have that in america it's like where you go and you pick your own sweets put them into a bag and then oh yeah of course yeah yeah yeah yeah i thought we were the only ones um there's a lot to it so you don't need there's all of these different tactics and depending on the company you're in the project the product the feature it's going to be different things that you choose so the first thing is just make sure you sort of you know don't do everything keep it small and the second thing is um have a bit of fun with it you know it's for whatever reason when we get into the b2b world in particular things you know you start getting very like sitting upright and getting very formal and you get a bit afraid to use things like metaphors and frameworks and storytelling but honestly in the era that we're entering uh the the great ai era these soft skills are more important than ever um and that ability to bring people along for the ride, that's something that's only going to need to be improved over the years.

39:52I completely agree. And while we're on the subject of AI, question around how you apply the framework with AI tools. I guess like if you, did you do that at Postman? Did you do it at Jira? Or if you didn't, why?

40:08John McKiernan:First of all, I can't believe we got 40 minutes into a PMM conversation without AR. Proof that it's not the focus of every single conversation. Yeah, to be honest, I'm going to be a bit contrarian with this one. Because if I could go back in time, and AR wasn't really, in fact, I don't think ChatGPT had even been launched at that point. I wouldn't have used anything. And it's for two reasons. I think one, and I've caught myself doing this recently being a bit too dependent and not doing enough thinking and i'm seeing i've seen some stats recently that's proven that's how people have stopped thinking they're just leaning way too heavily on ai and it's it's it'd be it's like the equivalent of going to the gym and watching people work out while you just drink ew i love that analogy but also so hate it it's creepy yeah that's that's my definition um which is ai ai is creepy it is and it's you need to do the reps you know you just you need to go in and i needed to just use those you know those few brain calories that i have to really think through the problem and work through the problem ai can't talk to customers for you it can take notes for you but it misses the nuances it misses the look in their eyes it can't go through and sign up for the product for you and do all of this stuff for you.

41:29John McKiernan:It can't tell a story. It can't make jokes. It can't connect you to the other humans around the business. So I think AI for me comes in a little later in the game. It can augment what you've built. It can augment the foundational stuff, but get the first principles right first, then bring AI and don't let it do too much for you too early. Yeah. Another helpful reminder that it's okay to not use AI when everyone else is telling you to use AI. Okay, so last question for you. And you kind of addressed a little bit of this already when I asked you the question about like, applying the framework in a new environment.

42:05But if you had one piece of advice to give a product marketer who is, you know, trying to uplevel their product growth, what would it be?

42:17John McKiernan:Stop sprinting for a minute, and really take the time to know the product better than anybody else in the business learn it do the courses talk to solution engineers talk to anybody you can know it so so so deeply um that you're just unstoppable couple that with knowing your customer and talking to them on a regular basis and the rest is just fun the rest is just like it's incredible it's like a silver bullet the customers tell you exactly what to say their messaging is almost exactly what you can put on landing pages and webinars and everything else. So that's probably what I say. Know the product and know the customer better than anybody.

42:55John McKiernan:You'll be unstoppable. Isn't our job as product marketers so fun? We get to just talk to people and then basically tell their stories as part of our job. It's amazing. All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing that deep case study with us and the race car framework. So excited to try it out myself. I want to switch gears a little bit and jump into the second segment of our show. This is the messaging critique. This is where we as product marketing experts get to analyze real world messaging. And the fun part is, John is my guest, you get to pick the company that we critique. Before we get started, just some quick ground rules for you and anyone who's new to this segment of the show.

43:36So you're going to reveal the company we're going to critique, and then we're going to talk about three things. First, what you're loving about the product or the messaging itself and what's working really well. And then second, something you wish the PMM would have done differently or considered differently in creating the messaging. And then lastly, we'll iterate on what's there and do a quick fun brainstorm for those PMMs out there for that company and of how they can take it to the next level. Ready to jump in?

44:05John McKiernan:Okay. Okay. So what is the company that we are analyzing today? I'm going to sound like a hypocrite here after my AI speech, but I'm going with it. I love it. Okay, so lovable. I am pulling up the website. There's multiple lovable websites out there. So I think most people know what lovable is. But if you guys want to follow along, make sure you're doing the right one. It's L-O-V-A-B-L-E dot D-E-V. Is that the right one, John? That's the one. Okay, so give us a quick summary for anyone who maybe knew what is lovable and who is it for? So I am actually a hardcore AI user just at the right time.

44:50John McKiernan:And Lovable is the fastest growing software startup ever, which is quite incredible. I think it's made 100 million ARR within its first year, which is mind-blowing. It's an AI-based website creator, so you can build basically anything, websites, landing pages, apps, and so on from scratch. You just need to use prompts. You don't need to know how to code. It's kind of, I suppose, one of the main tools that have birthed this phrase of vibe coding. So you don't need to know how to code, but it's certainly helpful if you can. Right. Okay. And as you started to analyze Lovable's messaging, what really stood out for you?

45:29John McKiernan:So I was, I love this segment in your podcast. And I remember I was listening to a few of your early episodes and going through this. They're so fun. Yeah, it's super fun. I love to do it. I just hope nobody ever does my page is the only thing like what what's great is lovable's audience that they're going after is the 99 of the world that can't code or don't code everybody right that's me for sure and i can imagine sort of sitting down you're like okay so we can do anything for everyone and you can imagine what a bad team could do to a landing page with that you know it's just like a very vanilla b2b busy page with just stuff everywhere because we don't i don't know best practices on any every single little thing that i want to build so if i were going to go build a website i'm not an expert on building websites i have an opinion but i'm probably going to miss some best practices because that's not my core competency yes yes exactly right and i think despite the the fact that it could do anything it's such a simple landing page it's like it's like when google came in and replaced yahoo well not replace sorry yahoo no offense and yahoo had these crazy busy page and then google was just like ask anything so simple and lovable have done the same here and that that's one of the things i love just so simple they have like the suggested prompts scrolling across the screen and the h2 in particular is really specific you can tell that it probably wasn't written by a marketer because it just says what it does.

47:05John McKiernan:It says create apps and websites by chatting with AI. I just love the simplicity and the specificity. And then I think what makes lovable and why I chose this one in particular is we're moving from a world where B2B in particular, it's like, okay, what can I do with your product? And we're moving to a world where it's what can this product do for me? You know, we have agents that go in and they can actually do things for you. Same in postman, things that you used to have to do manually. Now the agent can just go in, do your tests, do your documentation. And I think lovable are the ones sort of leading that.

47:41John McKiernan:And the messaging all leans quite heavily into that. It's like, you know, ask not what we can do for you, but what we can do together. I love that. I completely agree. And what a good observation. I never thought about it like that, but I think you're spot on with that observation. So something else that I, just really resonates with me. Clearly I'm part of the target audience because I'm loving what I'm seeing. I like that they are leaning into the human nature of wanting to create. I mean, whether you say you're creative or not, like we all love creating things. We create spreadsheets, we create stories, we create dinners, meals, like we love creating.

48:21So I like that they're like leaning into that part of human nature. It makes something so technical, like an AI tool that can literally build a website, it makes it feel a little bit more approachable, if that makes sense. So yeah, that really resonates with me. Okay, so what's something that you think the PMMs should have considered differently?

48:47John McKiernan:I think so. The one thing that you can suffer from looking at this is that blank canvas problem. And I think they've answered that to a degree with the sort of scrolling prompts saying, you know, asked me to build a landing page. Beneath that, they have the community, which is great. You can sort of take other people's projects and remix them yourself, which is something we've seen in other products like Notion, which works really well. I think maybe what's missing for me, two things, is they aren't the only horse in this race. There's other products that are pretty close, like Bolt. And I'd kind of want to see a little bit of FOMO.

49:23John McKiernan:Like this is the fastest growing software ever. Why should I choose this one over another? I think that's one thing that would really help. I think that, and I believe that this website itself was built with Lovable just by prompts. I feel like that would be just like a fun little thing to have in a corner built with Lovable. So you're like, oh, Jesus, it's actually like a, you know, a proper enterprise tool, something I can use for work. And maybe it's hard. I think the third thing is just how does it work? You know, you can go in and you can do it yourself, but I think just a quick video or like a product walkthrough or even just a watch demo or something like that would really benefit because even though this is a no code thing i still reckon from talking to a few friends they're like yeah i've seen it but i haven't really made the jump yet and i reckon a little nudge just to show how it works how you just prompt and then just prompt again and prompt again and improve um that will that's magic because when i first did it and i got my eureka moment when i built like a i built like a netball landing page for my daughter to show her all the fixtures from her it's and when we did it together it took 12 minutes.

50:26John McKiernan:So I become an evangelist. I go around telling everybody. And the more people do that, the faster growth will be. Yeah. So you hit on something that I don't see in, at least in their homepage. And listen, I'm like, as I already said, I'm not like a web designer, web builder, and we're not here to critique, you know, the website on its own. But I think you hit on something that would speak to the persona. And that's like the time that you can do as to your point, what can you do for me? And in what time frame can you do it? It's one thing to be able to completely outsource, you know, building a website that I obviously cannot do.

51:05But it's another thing if you can also do that in like 15 minutes. I have no idea how long it actually takes. Maybe it takes an hour, maybe it takes two. I have no idea. But because I've never some of these things or actions might take to solve some of that, you know, time to market, you know, issue or, you know, that I can imagine be part of it for some of this. And I think that might help with some of the FOMO that, you know, the fastest growing, right? Like first to do X. Yeah. I really like that part. Okay. So you mentioned a couple of ideas. How would you take it to the next level or what, you know, what are some creative ideas that you have for

51:46John McKiernan:the lovable marketing team so well this is uh yeah the funny thing is they don't have a marketing team i know that as well i follow that follow them pretty closely they just they are i'm pretty impressed i'm pretty impressed this is pretty this is pretty good for not having a marketing team well done lovable i like it i think i think they just hired their at their first their first marketing as far as i know but um there's not that much it's you know a lot of the time the magic comes from subtraction not addition and there are certainly things that would change but they're relatively minor rather i would get outside into the real world and um i think they have an opportunity to do things very differently so let's say for example every other product in the world has a conference where folks go and they listen to keynotes and whatever i feel like they have an opportunity to do something different um like let's say instead of a conference they have a world cup of builders and people fly in there's two days where everybody can team up and they can build things together and they can put them into the real world you can sort of go through having a voting thing it can become like a worldwide fun event you can get to see which one of these products like maybe the next year you have a conference you see which which of those ideas that were built actually made money and which one made the most it could become like a super fun moment kind of like a spotify rap vibe where you uh really get to see really cool things being built by the likes of you and me you've always needed technical co-founders to do so so i think there's a real for them just to have a marketing moment every year yeah leaning into the community that they're starting to build yeah big time yeah i totally agree with that and while i do really appreciate the community and them showcasing the community on the home page I almost feel like it makes it more confusing because I'm like, wait a minute, what are these things?

53:37So maybe just reorienting some things to make that storytelling a little bit easier. And I love that idea of trying something different and going bold. And that really aligns to the moment that we're in in this AI world that we're living in. So fun. Well, well done, Lovable. considering you, at least to our knowledge, don't have a marketing team yet or you're building one. So it's pretty good stuff. I'm pretty impressed so far. And we've got some ideas for you. So check it out. Let us know what you think. Okay. So John, one thing that I always like to make space for on the podcast is a moment of gratitude because of course in product marketing, none of us get here alone.

54:23We're always copying each other and building on each other and iterating along the way. So before we wrap up, I just want to say a heartfelt thank you so much. I know there's so much time that goes into preparing these episodes and you have a busy life. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. And the product marketing community is very grateful. So thank you. I appreciate all of that. And now I want to turn it over to you. I would love to hear some shout outs for some PMMs who have helped shape you and, you know, the role that you've had and been able to be in today.

55:00John McKiernan:Yeah, the ones you can blame for shaping me. Well, first of all, I'll just spin it back to you. I want to say thank you to you for having me on. It's been fun, but you're also doing a great service. I feel like we don't have enough sort of a good podcast, good newsletters and product marketing we do for almost every other craft. And I feel like we could do with a lot more of it. So thank you. And there's three other people that I'd love to thank while I have the chance. One is my old boss in Atlassian, Claire Drummond. She's, I remember sort of starting and I was, you know, scrappy startup guy.

55:28John McKiernan:And I remember just the first meeting just shouting ideas at her. I was like, what if we do this? What if we do this? And instead of her just freaking out and, you know, saying, okay, chill out, dude, she sort of managed to professionalize me and make me work in an enterprise place. And I sort of have a lot to thank for her. Second is my current boss, Justine, who's the head of marketing and postman. Um, she's, I think, former CMO, used to refer to her as someone who leads with an iron fist and a velvet glove. And I feel like that's a perfect description of her. So if you are thinking about applying for a postman role, you'd be working under her.

56:04John McKiernan:She's fantastic. And the third is actually one of my colleagues at the moment, Eliza. She runs a company called Launch APAC over here. So American companies are going to launch in APAC without actually building out a team. she takes care of everything from events and so on and she's kind of like my work buddy here and she keeps me saying she keeps me smiling um and i just want to give a big thanks to her as well i love that you know there's really nothing not nothing but there's not much to cut to that compares to having really amazing partners and mentors and leaders that you get to work with it really does make all the difference in terms of the quality and motivation.

56:46John McKiernan:So glad that you have that. A happy PMM is a good PMM. That's right. And my last question for you, I promise. Where is it best for our audience to get access to your expertise? Is it best for everyone to find you on LinkedIn? Yes, LinkedIn is probably the best place to go. So have a look for me there. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again, John. This was really fun. and thank you PMM listeners for coming on this adventure with us today. I hope this episode leaves you with inspiration to take on the next step in your own journey.