Are We Reliving 1929? Parallels to Today’s Market Mania — ft. Andrew Ross Sorkin

25:30I think he concluded. So that's a very complicated scenario. How do you cut off what seems like a speculative sort of fury? And you want that innovation, but you also now, especially because of the concentration, you don't want to sort of tip over the rest of it. So I think part of it is what do you do on the front end? And then on the back end, what do you do, which is and the answer typically is you flood the system with money as politically unpopular as that is. That's going to become increasingly more complicated because of our fiscal imbalances, which is to say back in 1929, for better or worse, we had a budget surplus.

26:09this country hardly had any debt. The more you start to flood the system with money now, you create all sorts of other new problems for yourself because at some point, bondholders in US treasuries are going to raise their hand and say, you know what? We don't really like this that much. We're happy to lend you money, but you're going to have to pay us a lot more for that risk. We'll be right back after the break. If you liked what you heard, hit follow and subscribe to our YouTube channel for more.

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29:12we're back with profity markets the way this reminded me a little bit of your book too big to fail is you're very good at putting people in the room like there's there's a couple meetings or scenarios in both books where you feel like you're literally in the room and i what i would ask you to do is put us, if someone said, put me in the room in October of 2025, you see the markets every day. You're literally someone who's taking the blood pressure and the, you know, taking the pulse of the markets every day. You see it, and you've been doing this a while. If you tried to remove yourself from this age and objectively look at what's going on, and you wanted to put someone in the room, the markets, today, how would you describe it?

29:59Okay, so if I could write about today, what I would want to do is try to recreate the scenes where Sam Altman is putting together the transaction, not with Jensen Wang, but actually maybe with Lisa Su, who runs AMD. Because you would see both of them either on a phone call or probably on a Zoom, maybe in a room together. I don't know the specifics of how it all happened, but I think you get to see the conversation. You get to understand the motivations that Sam desperately wants this build out, feels like he really needs to buy all of this compute. You have Lisa Suet AMD desperate to get into this sort of chip game, which she's losing to NVIDIA.

30:45And so her motivations are, I need to get into this. how are they going to make a deal? In this case, they create this sort of odd circular transaction where, you know, OpenAI gets, you know, warrants in AMD knowing that if they announce this deal likely, I'd love to see that conversation, we think that the warrants are going to be worth a lot more because of this connection between the two. And then that's going to create value, which OpenAI can use effectively as cash at some point to pay for the chips that it otherwise couldn't afford to buy. I would want to see that conversation. And then I would want to see some conversation after it, where, you know, Sam is briefing, you know, President Trump and Scott Besson on it.

31:30And then maybe the breakfast that Scott Besson has with, you know, Powell, you know, once a week, they have lunch together or breakfast together. So yeah, I would be trying to tell those stories as a way of sort of bringing you inside of today's economy and trying to understand, you know, how much anxiety all of these individuals really have or don't have in these moments. Those circular deals, that would be an interesting room. I'm curious, and obviously my political leanings are going to come out here. I'd love to be in the room where he's basically saying to Mark Zuckerberg or Sam Altman or Give me$100 million and I will pass AI legislation that lets you molest every piece of IP out there.

32:14It strikes me that this age, and I'm putting forward a thesis, that what will mark this age economically is this orgy of corruption and flat-out grift. Your thoughts, Andrew? Look, I think that there, unfortunately, is a lot of grift in this moment. And by the way, maybe that grift will ultimately look like the kind of grift that we had in 1929, but just in a different form. Right. I think that's that's possible. Was it on this scale or was it worse? And I ask that sincerely. Was it on the same level as this or worse, better? Well, so in the stock market itself back then, you literally had all sorts of demonstrable insider trading and manipulation going on where literally the specialist on the floor was oftentimes organizing what was called an operation, a pool operation, where they effectively were almost like actors where one person would say, I'm up for buying 120, then 140.

33:07But they all knew exactly. They were all in it together. That is happening today in crypto. That's happening in the meme stock arena. I told a story on 60 Minutes about this, and it was such a wild situation for me personally. Back in January, somebody created something called a Sorkin coin. I happen to be on TV with Larry Fink, and he mentioned that he joked that there should be a Sorkin coin. Somebody actually created one. All of a sudden, millions of dollars are trading. And I kept getting invited into these Telegram accounts, sort of chat rooms and Signal chat rooms. And they're all talking about how they're actually going to manipulate the coin and press it up.

33:48And they all were trying to they wanted me to be involved in it because they were trying to thought if I endorsed it, it would go go up. In fact, one of them reached out to one of my sons online on social media, found him and was was offering him, I think, 50 or 100 thousand dollars worth of Sorkin coin to try to get him to somehow, I don't know, do something. I had to call my son and say, look, you cannot talk to these people. I beg you, we're all going to go to jail. You cannot. Please do not reply. And of course, my son said to me, Dad, I'm leaving a lot of money on the table. That's what Eric Trump probably said, too.

34:23I think of you as being like, if I was asked to have five people to sort of embody New York to me and different angles of it, different complexions of it, you would be one of those people. I just think of you as the consummate New Yorker. talk to me about cuomo versus mom domi i'd love to just give looking at it through the lens of the markets i know you talk to and are you're you're both young enough to i think understand the appeal of mom domi but also you talk you speak to every day to some people some market players who are very seem vehemently opposed to him what do you think this says about the moment it says about the moment in new york oh goodness look i think what it really says about the moment is that the Democratic Party has struggled to find the best possible candidates to actually put up on the board.

35:14I mean, I think that's why this is, to the degree that people are questioning, how did this happen? Obviously, Mondomite felt like came out of nowhere. Cuomo is a, it's complicated for people to support him for lots of reasons. And I think, you know, a lot of those reasons. I don't even have to spell them out. And I think it's very complicated for a lot of other people to support Mondawmi, in part because he's not a democratic socialist. He actually is a socialist. If you go and listen to what he talks about, I mean, he does demonstrably talk about seizing the means of production. Like he says that out loud.

35:55He has said that. And so I think that those sort of the idea of a city that's built on capitalism being run by somebody who demonstrably does not believe in it and not just doesn't believe in it, but wants to fundamentally change it is a fascinating development in our city. I think the bigger questions, though, that are are animating the likes of, you know, some of the hedge fund managers and some of the most outspoken Wall Streeters that you hear actually have nothing to do, oddly enough, with free buses and free groceries. I don't think that's what this is about. I think that this is actually about something very different.

36:36I think this is about policing and safety in the city and whether he is going to not just keep Commissioner Tisch in charge, but how he's going to reallocate resources around policing in this city. And I think we have lived in this city and had lots of problems over the last five years. The pandemic really exacerbated it. We also had a lot of laws change that made, you know, common thievery, you know, something that doesn't even get prosecuted in large part. So I think there's a big question about that. I think it starts with that. I think there's this question about anti-Semitism, to be honest with you, is a real question.

37:15I think that's like a real, legit question that people, I'm Jewish, that people have in this city about what does he actually believe and how is that going to manifest itself over the next couple of years in this city? And then I think, you know, I know people talk about taxes and people think he's not going to be able to raise – the tax thing I think is almost a red herring to sort of just a larger question about can he manage the city? I think that's actually another big piece of this, which is to say he's a young man. He's 33. A lot of people are super excited about him as a politician and what he represents and speaks to in terms of the big ideas around affordability and the like.

37:59But when it comes to actually the practical day-to-day of actually managing a city, when it's pretty clear that he's never done anything like that, and to the extent that he's managed things in this role as an assemblyman, that he wasn't even doing the job half the time. I think a lot of people look at that that are in the business of Wall Street. I'm here at the NASDAQ today. I think those are the issues they're thinking about. The mayoral race is an executive or operational position, and it's about making sure the MTA works and that there's policing. So to a certain extent, his views on Israel are, I don't want to say they're not important, but I feel like we have bigger fish to fry in terms of where we spend our political capital.

38:42And I think it's just as it's going to be hard for him to raise taxes because the logistics of the having to get the governor and the state legislature on board, you know, his views on Israel or on Jews. I see why it's meaningful, but I don't think it's profound here. And I think I do think there's been some Islamophobia. I think that's probably true. As the Cuomo campaign gets desperate, you know, running ads or affiliated parties running ads of the, you know, the plane slamming into the Twin Towers. I just think that shit's ugly. You know, I mean this sincerely, Andrew. I'd love to see you run for office.

39:17But it feels like more of a statement on our politics that you kind of think, wait, this is the best we can do? Well, that's the saddest part. Nobody wants to take these jobs. I mean, that's the thing. And I don't know how we change that. By the way, that's not just a New York City mayoral problem. That's a problem around the country. Nobody wants, with very few exceptions, I don't want to say nobody wants these jobs, but I don't know, what would it take for us to get you, Scott, to run for something? If I was your age, I would do it, Andrew. It's just that I'm barreling towards death and I want to go to Ibiza and hang out with my friends.

39:53And I would absolutely do it because I'm a narcissist and I'm wealthy, which are the two primary qualifications to run for office. But no, I think a guy your age, I'm hoping Ed someday decides to get involved in public service. Ed, you want to run? You want to get dragged through the mud, Ed? You don't want to get dragged through the mud every day and have people on TikTok saying this crazy stuff. I want to make the money first. But you're right. Your point is, unless we stop these, on the left, purity tests, and unless on the right, they stop being, in my opinion, just so fucking crazy and coarse and cruel, who the hell's gonna, who with any options and has a nice life and isn't a total megalomaniac is gonna wanna do this shit?

40:36Andrew, you speak a lot with the business world. You have kind of like a direct line of communication with all of the top executives, the people on Wall Street, the business community at large. And it's interesting to hear that there are concerns in New York, specifically with Mamdani about the policing in general. But socialism at large, you know, you mentioned the strangeness of the capital of capitalism being run by a socialist. However, at the same time, this is spreading across the nation, actually. You've got 46 % of Americans saying they don't support capitalism or they have a problem with capitalism.

41:17You've got support for socialism at an all-time high in America. So yes, it's strange, but it's actually increasingly not strange. The extent to which socialism is being embraced by people and people are losing faith in the capitalist system, which to me is going to be kind of the great referendum of our time. Do we like capitalism? Do we like the system that we've inherited or do we not? I would love to get your sense of what the business community thinks about this question, and also if they are concerned, and also taking it seriously? Do they think that this is a real problem? So I think they're concerned.

41:57I don't think they're taking it seriously, though I'm not sure what it would take to take it seriously, meaning what they would be doing. And what's so unique, by the way, in this city in particular, and I recognize the polls suggest otherwise, in terms of just the view about socialism, If you ask most, at least the experience that I've had of, and this is anecdotal, people who are voting for Mondami, they say, well, he's not really a socialist. They'll say, actually, no, he's not a socialist. He's a democratic socialist. That's a very different thing. So I don't think they actually think that their way of life is going to fundamentally change in part because they think they don't think he can he can actually change it, given, you know, the roles, responsibilities and powers that a mayor has.

42:40But I do think there is this larger question about capitalism versus socialism in the same way that I think there's this question. I think this actually came out of 2008 and the financial crisis, a complete and utter rethinking about experts, expertise, institutions. All of that sort of was put up in the air as a question. And by the way, I think that's almost a straight line to President Trump winning in 2016. I think those questions were raised again, by the way, in the context of the pandemic. And so, you know, it's one thing to scream from the rooftop and say, guys, look at history. Capitalism is the thing that actually works.

43:23Socialism is the thing that actually doesn't work because they look at you and they say, I don't believe you or I don't care because I'm trying to find, you know, I believe in my own truth. we'll be right back and for even more markets content sign up for our newsletter at profgmarkets.com slash subscribe

43:56we're back with profgmarkets this has been fascinating but i want to uh hear more about the book, specifically your process. One of the things I admire about you is the fact that you do everything. It's kind of insane. I mean, you're the anchor on CNBC. You started Dealbook at the New York Times. You're writing for Dealbook. You're doing all of these different things, and you're writing books. By the way, not to mention the shows, the fact that you wrote and produced billions. What was your process? I know that you went to the libraries and you were filing through all these documents. Tell us about what it took to actually write this book while juggling an extremely demanding career.

44:42So the truth is, I did think I was going to be able to do this in two or three years. Obviously, I couldn't do that. And part of it was I did have these other responsibilities that I needed to make sure that I was attending to every single day. I would do this on weekends. I would do it on nights. I would do it in between things. You know, for the first couple of years, I was researching like crazy, just trying to find lots of different material. That actually, there was some stumbling blocks along the way. Then, by the way, the pandemic happened. And actually, at one point, I thought the pandemic might go on for a very long time.

45:13I didn't even know what I was going to do. You couldn't even get inside some of these libraries around the country. I actually almost created like a black market. I would call up, I, along with a researcher that I was working with at the time, we would call up archivists, ask them what students were allowed in libraries because certain students who had like a dissertation due or a thesis due were allowed in. And I would pay those students, I'd find them and pay them to go through boxes for you. So I'd say, Box 152, I need you to actually, with your iPhone, take a picture of every single page and send it to me.

45:50Now, in the end, I went back to actually most of those libraries afterwards because I did feel the sort of the tactileness of seeing it. But it was really like a mystery. It was like putting a puzzle together in a way of trying to find all the material and also to think through these different characters to figure out what were their motivations and what was the chip on the shoulder? What was the hole that these people were trying to fill? Because I always think, and you guys actually talk about this, I think what drives a lot of people, especially at the top, is some semblance of insecurity, actually.

46:22And so trying to understand what that insecurity even is so that when you actually see them making decisions, even when you think the decisions are completely irrational or make no sense or the wrong decisions or immoral, you say to yourself, ah, but I remember reading earlier in the book about what was happening with this guy as a kid or as a this or that. And all of a sudden it makes it at least relatable or understandable so you can appreciate why these things are happening. Why are you so industrious? It's kind of a broad question. Why are you so ambitious? Yeah, no, seriously. Because I have a hole that I'm trying to fill.

47:01Fair enough. But can you, I would like to hear, like just going inside the mind of Andrew Ross Sorkin, you are this superstar and you're reaching out to, I mean, imagine being a college student, you get a DM from Andrew Ross Sorkin asking for a photo. I mean, what drives you? I was driven to write this book because of my own curiosity about the topic. But, you know, I think part of it was, could I do it? Like, I honestly think part of this, I think actually a lot of the things that I do is like trying to prove to myself that I'm capable. Like, could I pull it off? You know, when I wrote Too Big to Fail in 2008 and 2009, it was like lightning in a bottle.

47:46And I think if you know me well enough, you know that I sort of have thought for a long time like that. Maybe I was just like a lucky thing. And I don't know, maybe I got the timing right and this and that. And so I think, you know, to some degree, I think for me, I'm always trying to push myself to see, well, could I do it again? Was it luck? Was it not luck? You know, I think I probably have the same insecurities, frankly, that a lot of that I think most people have to some degree. And so I think I hate to say it, but I think that that probably drives me more than it should. I think what we've learned about you as well is that you are an incredibly good storyteller.

48:30I mean, for those who read the book, it's kind of, I said it should be a movie because it's kind of insane how much it feels like you're watching a movie. I mean, the same could be said about, like, Harry Potter as an example. You read the page, and it's like you can see everything that's happening in front of you. And so that is really the remarkable thing about this book. I just would love to hear, you know, we want to tell great stories on this show. It's an incredible skill. We think it's one of the most important skills in the age of AI. What is your advice for how to tell a great story and how did you get so good at storytelling?

49:10Thank you. I don't know if I'm a great storyteller. I think I love the story of people more than anything else. I mean, it's interesting because people have written about 1929 and have done very well writing about 1929, but they typically write it in the context of economics and cycles and systems. And I'm fascinated by people because I ultimately believe people make decisions, good and bad, that ultimately impact and create those economic cycles and systems. And so I'm always looking to tell the story through those people. And I feel like that's the most relatable way. And frankly, for me, the way I even understand the world, you know, I'm not trying to be humble or something by saying I'm not that smart.

49:55I'm not that smart. Sometimes I hear people talking about things in these sort of very, to me, it's very confusing. I actually don't understand what they're talking about when they talk about certain things. But when you tell me the story through a person and the way they were feeling and then why they were doing what they're doing and then connect it to the economic cycles and systems and all those things, then for some reason I get it. And so I find myself writing that way. I think that's the way we try to talk about markets on this show too, which I think there's a void in the market, which is like, it's all people running society.

50:30So if you understand the people, then you'll start to understand why things are happening and the reason that things unfolded the way they did. What is very interesting and a little bit crazy to me about this book is you're describing people who are not alive, who you've never met before. And I assume you had to kind of fill in the blanks. How did you get to know all of the characters in 1929, considering the fact that you don't know them? I mean, this is literally reading the diaries, reading the letters, reading the transcripts, reading the memos, reading all sorts of materials, reading what their friends were saying about them in those moments.

51:09You know, some of the material I found wasn't just in the moment. It might have been from 10, 20, 30 years even later. You know, I found materials that some of their kids had written about some of the characters. And so, again, I think I was just trying to figure out who they were. And I think I try to put myself in their shoes. I mean, I think I try to do this today with people who are alive. I try to think to myself, well, if I was so-and-so, even when I disagree with them, you know, why do they think what they think? And so I think I try to do that in this context. But everything you read, if you see a quote or an emotion or it came from somewhere, there's hundreds of pages of endnotes in this book to really, so you can actually see where the material came from.

51:51It's not that I had to really craft it in my head, Though I will say, having covered the crisis of 2008, I think that actually helped me a lot understand sort of the emotional state of humans in those moments and sort of like what they do and who they call and what happens in those moments. So I think I was purposely looking for some of those things as I was going through the material. Just on that point of getting to know people, I think you're good at it and figuring out what's going on in their head. I'd like to throw out a few characters see what you think is going on in their head Sam Altman he says we're going to spend a trillion dollars he's cooking up these deals with Lisa Sue he's going to Larry Ellison everyone's saying it's a bubble many people are calling him Scam Altman what do you think is going through his head right now when he comes out with these deals that a lot of people believe are dangerous that he's playing with fire.

52:52Do you think he recognizes that? Do you think he ignores it and believes that we just have to build AI no matter the cost? What do you think is going on in his head? I don't want to speak for Sam. I've known Sam for a while. I think, and I've covered, you know, a lot of what they've done over these past years. I think that he believes in his heart that there's an inevitability to this technology, its emergence, and ultimately to AGI, that he believes that there is a straight line to that and that whether he does it or somebody else does it, that's the end state. And so as a result, I think he's thinking, I want to be the one who gets there first.

53:38And while I do believe he's concerned to some degree about the implications of these things in terms of safety and the like and the implications on our society, I think because of that sort of sense of inevitability that he is convinced of. If you believe that, too, these other issues oddly do sort of fall to the to the wayside. If you were going to start a media company from scratch right now, what would it look like? Maybe some it would be a combination of what you're doing mixed with what Alex Cooper is doing. No joke. And by the way, I admire what the TBTPN guys are doing. I mean, I think it would be you'd be sort of a combination of sort of podcast meets video, probably meets product and selling certain types of products.

54:25I think you could do. I mean, what's so interesting to me, this is a much longer conversation, is just how the audience has shifted in terms of what you think the sort of traditional rules should be in the context of most people who are involved in sort of this new podcast realm, you know, are venture capitalists or this or that. and they have all sorts of stakes in different things. And for whatever reason, the audience, I think, doesn't care. So maybe the world has changed. I don't know. But I think those are some real questions. But I think once you crack that, then I think the whole thing opens up into doing all sorts of interesting things.

54:56I was asking this when you're on, and I think people, anyone who knows, he knows you're a pretty soulful guy. Any thoughts for a guy like Ed, who doesn't have kids or a wife yet, on your learnings as a dad and a husband? Be straight with me. I'll be totally straight with you. First of all, and I think Scott said this, I think professionally when you're young before you have kids, do everything. Do everything you possibly can do. Because I do think one of the great conundrums and challenges of being a dad and being a father and having a professional life is the complication of trying to do both well.

55:34And it's hard. and I tell myself all the time, Scott, that, you know, if I write this book and they see me working hard on it and they see me care about something, hopefully they're going to care about something. I worry that, you know, they're going to, um, they could have a, you know, there could be a backlash. Interestingly, I'll tell you about my own father. Um, my father was a lawyer and he worked so hard. I mean, he worked, he acted like a first year associate till he retired. and I thought to myself, I'm never going to work that hard. This is crazy that he's working this hard. Why is he?

56:10He's working on the weekends all the time. What's he doing? This is insane. And yet here I am. And what I realized I do think is true. I think if you love something, I'm so blessed to have found something I love. I'm hoping, I'm praying that if they see me love something as much as I do and as much as I love them, not to say that I love them more. I mean, I love them more and I hope they know that, but that they will hopefully be able to find a passion or understand that you could find something that you could love to do that much. Again, these are all things I tell myself and we'll know in 20 or 30 years when I get the bill from the psychiatrist for the kids.

56:51So you tell me. We're going to be billing you. Any marriage advice? find somebody who you could talk to forever. That's the thing for me with my wife, I could talk to her forever. I just, we never get sick of each other. It's the craziest thing. When I first met her, I was actually scared to date her because I felt like, um, I felt like I'd known her so long. It was like a weird connection thing. I was like, this feels weird to me. Um, so yeah, if you can find that, that's a pretty special thing. Andrew Ross Sorkin is a financial economist for the New York Times and the editor-at-large of Dealbook.

57:30He is also co-anchor of Squawk Box, CNBC's signature morning program. His latest book, 1929, Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History and How It Shattered a Nation, is available now. Andrew, this was fantastic, as always. This was a lot of fun. Thank you, gentlemen. Really appreciate it. You guys do such a great job. Thanks, brother.

57:59Ed, what did you think of the Canadian spot? You know that, right? You know he works for the Canadian Intelligence Service. Anyone that nice? He's definitely funneling back trade secrets to Canada. There's something wrong. He's too successful, too humble, too kind. Yeah, there's something off with him. There's got to be, right? What did you think? I'm fond of Andrew. I don't know him well, but I know him and I like him and I want him to succeed. And I find that he's actually quite, I think because he has such a powerful seat at CNBC, he's actually, he gives it to you pretty straight. He's not afraid to push back.

58:36I always enjoy really speaking to him. Also his books. If you write books, you see how hard they are. And within 10 or 12 pages, you can usually tell if A, they wrote it and B, if they did the work. and Andrew does the work. It doesn't surprise me that book took him seven or eight years. Like when he writes a book, he really takes it on. He does a lot of research. He really goes deep. And so his books kind of, like I said, they put you in the room and they put you in the period and they put you in that time. He's a very talented guy. Nice family man, good friend. Yeah, just kind of one of those guys kind of has it all.

59:14I would love to see Andrew run for office. I think he's very pragmatic, very likable. I think he'd be a great mayor of New York. I think he'd be, I think he'd win. And he's got a blend of the kind of empathy and humanity that you want in someone in public service. But at the same time, I think in New York, you have to have someone who understands finance and markets. And he gets those things. Your thoughts? I'm struck by the book. I'm struck by his ability to tell a story. I'm struck by his work ethic as exemplified by the amount of work that he does in all of his different media. outlets and the amount of work, the insane amount of work that he had to put in to produce this book.

59:53I mean, if you read the book and you read sort of like the prologue about how he did it, it's kind of unbelievable. The thing that I am most impressed by with Andrew, I think, is his humility and his kindness. And I know that sounds kind of mushy and whatever, but I really am. And, you know, when we had him on the show for the first time, I've been a fan of his for a long time. And I, you know, I reached out to him to get coffee and chat. And get a job. Is that what you're telling me? Wait, hold on. Just by accident, you decided to have coffee with another financial media personality. I do. Yeah, you just wanted him to mentor you.

1:00:47Yeah, that's right. That's right. Memo to self, interviewing with competitors. Okay, great. Sorry, go ahead. Well, it doesn't matter what I thought. The most important thing, he doesn't need to meet with me. I'm like a pipsqueak compared to him. He doesn't really get much out of it. But he was so willing, so interested, so kind, met with me for a long time, was very honest about the struggles that he's had in his career, what he thinks he's good at, what he thinks he's not good at. A level of humility coming from a person who was so successful is just always striking. I mean, the way he kind of was telling me, here's what I think I got wrong.

1:01:35I think this is what a lot of people appreciate about you. But I think my learning from it is, I think kindness and generosity is not only a good thing in and of itself, but it also gets you very far. And when you talk to anyone about Andrew Ross Sorkin, when you ask anyone about what he's like, the kind of man he is, everyone's review, it's a glowing review of how kind he is as a person. And I do believe that it is not all of his success. I think it's a big piece of his success. It's why people want to work with him. People want to have him on their show. People want to represent him. I think he is a really good example of what kindness can do for your career and the way it can actually be quite powerful in terms of your career ambitions.

1:02:30I think there is a lesson there. We've said this a couple of times on the show that there's a cartoon of very successful people that they're Monty Burns, that in order to be that successful, you have to crawl over people. And I think, unfortunately, that's a common theme among the far left. And I think where the right has gotten right is they celebrate success, whereas I think sometimes on the far left, we're suspicious of it. and what I have found is that exceptionally successful people, generally speaking, over-index on kindness. They're generally good people because one of the keys to success is being put in a room of opportunities when you're not physically in that room.

1:03:08And the way you get there is through kindness and doing things for people where there doesn't appear to be any, you know, expectation of reciprocal benefit and you just kind of memo to self, I'd really like to do this personal solid someday. Yeah, I think there are different ways to do it. I mean, I think you can find examples of very successful assholes, one of which would be Trump, another of which would be Elon Musk. But I think, to your point, there are several different ways to be successful. And I think there is an image that is being projected that if you want to be rich, if you want to be influential, you've got to be an asshole to people, you've got to steamroll over people.

1:03:44And that actually is not true. And there are many examples, as you say, of people who actually got to where they are because they formed connections and friendships. They were generous. They did people favors. And it all comes back to them in the form of career karma, let's say. Yeah, I also just, I can't help be triggered by, whenever you mention Donald Trump and Elon Musk, you also have to define what success is. You're talking about one person. That's true, too. Those guys are not happy. He sleeps with a loaded gun next to his bed, is radically addicted to ketamine, and is in custody fights with two different women over custody of a child that he has not seen.

1:04:21I would not describe that as a success. And Donald Trump's wife wants nothing to do with him. The East Wing used to be the First Lady's residence, and they quickly figured out she doesn't need it. I mean, literally, has anyone heard from the First Lady? She wants nothing to do with her husband. Nothing to do with him. and he's raising a bunch of Nepo kids who, anyways, different, different, you're more successful than either of those people, Ed. All right, let's move on. Clip it. Clip it. Clip it.

1:04:59This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our research team is Dajlan, Isabella Kinsel, Chris Newdonohue and Mia Silverio. Drew Burrows is our technical director and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof G Markets from Prof G Media. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow and join us for a fresh take on markets on Monday.

1:05:23Lifetimes

1:05:29You have me

1:05:33In kind reunion As the world turns And the dark flies In love, love, love, love