Money & Masculinity: Scott Galloway & Ed Elson on What Defines a Man

27:24And then they're also fucking broke. I was raised by a woman who had a series of boyfriends, nothing ever worked out long-term and was also economically strained. And let me tell you, that's not good either. So the fact that women want economic independence, well, of course they do. What, they're supposed to go all in on finding a dude and then be reliant on him economically? So I don't, where I part company, I like them. Think men need to very much aspire to be economically viable. The truth is Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay-Z. The opposite It is not true. Men are disproportionately and unfairly evaluated best on their economic viability.

28:05Women are unfairly and disproportionately evaluated on their aesthetics. That is not the way the world should be. It is the way the world is. Where I part company with these guys is lifting women into equal opportunity and let them run through the tape and have economic viability and security. It is up to society and to men to accept that, embrace it, endorse it, and be the afterburners on that. But there are some big knock-on effects we're going to have to address. we'll be right back after the break and by the way we will be recording an ask me anything episode in a couple of weeks so drop your questions for us in the comments or email them to markets at prof g media.com

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31:52We're back with Prof G Markets. This idea that women are disproportionately and unfairly evaluated based on their looks, which I agree with. I think that that is the nature of biology. As is being a provider. And this is what I'm going to get to, which is the same thing is true of being a provider. which is where if that is true, I start to run into issues with when you say, if your wife is better at this whole money thing, then part of what it means to be a man is to get out of the way. As you say, your wife was making more money working at Goldman Sachs, you decided to come home and take care of the kids, which I like that as a story.

32:38but it's hard to fit it in with this framework if we're agreeing that money is systemically important to what it means to be a man, not because of the money, but because of this providing aspect. Then how do we also say at the same time that being a stay-at-home dad is also what it means to be a man? And I'm not saying that it's not what it means to be a man, but I think that that needs to be defined. I mean, what is it about you coming home early while your wife is out making more money than you that you believe does fit with what it means to be a man? In what ways did it actually make you feel more masculine, if at all?

33:21It didn't. I mean, if we're going to have an honest conversation, we should have an honest conversation. I think deep down when I meet a dude that's a stay-at-home dad, I don't meet him there often, but I usually do. I think, oh, dude's not a player. Dude couldn't hack it in the professional world. It's a terrible thing to think, but I think it. And I think, oh, you know, she had to settle for a dude that can't make money or can't make enough to justify the childcare. And I think the majority of the world looks at that person that way. And no matter how many subscriptions the Atlantic and the New York Times we have, I think people are going to instinctively have that reaction.

33:59And the question is, how do we train our society to be a little bit more forgiving or a little bit more rewarding of the emotional labor that women provide when men start providing it? But you're fighting instinct. I mean, there's just no getting around it. And the question is, what do you do about it? I would argue that things like universal childcare make it easier for both people to try and find some level of work. Because I think where relationships that I've seen kind of come off the tracks is that the man's not economically viable at all, and they can't even afford for him to try and go out and workshop a career because childcare is so fucking expensive.

34:38And I think there'd be less anxiety in households if both people could contribute economically. I think most men want to work. I mean, more power to you. I'm making reductive statements in there now. I think it's 16 % of households with a woman's the primary or makes more money than in dual income households. I think that most men would rather, and this is maybe not true of all men, I'm making huge generalizations. I think we need to provide families with less economic angst such that if in fact women want to leverage their excellence academically, the fact that they're finally getting their due professionally, if they're making more money than the man, that's fine.

35:19But I think we need to level up all young people such that more people have economic viability in the marketplace, which I think just as it disproportionately hurt men when younger people had less opportunity, I think it will disproportionately help men when we put more money in the pockets of young people. because I don't think it's the woman making more money that causes divorce and anxiety. I think it's the woman just quite frankly contributing way more on all levels. And it's like, okay, boss, at the end of the day, a relationship is somewhat of a transaction. And so I think just giving young people more opportunity to both have jobs and contribute economically.

36:00And I just still think the dollar sign next to the dude is still unfairly a sign of his manhood. And I'm not sure that we're going to be able to start that out in years or even decades. I think it's going to take hundreds of years. I just think that's instinctively how we evaluate men. So what is the answer? What if it's how you evaluate men? What if it's you believe that money, that the dollar sign holds a lot of weight? and and and by the way just to be clear with you i feel the same way but i i'm just i want to play play out the argument from say the therapist or say the woman who disagrees what if the woman says no you don't get it actually i don't care about the dollar sign i care about something else and i have theories on what i think the something else is which i will share in a moment um but what would you say to that?

37:03Or do you believe that maybe they like to tell themselves that, or we like to tell ourselves, we don't really care about it, but ultimately we do? My personal experience is that when I was a professor at NYU Stern making$160 ,000 or$180 ,000 a year, and my partner at the time, we had just had a kid, and she got a job making$300 ,000 at Goldman her first year out of business school, I didn't feel less masculine. I definitely didn't feel more masculine, but I saw us as a team. I was contributing to the relationship. I stepped up. Stepped up with domestic work, taking care of the kids. I did bath time.

37:41I, you know, I did, I took the kids, I don't know, I'm doing some virtue signaling here, but yeah, I did step up or I like to think I stepped up and I didn't make me feel less masculine because I was, because I was in fact, you know, still working. Now, Now, in terms of the actual data, it's only getting worse. And that is, look at the dating apps. Men who are wealthy get so much more attention. And if you look at, I mean, everything around, what are your minimums, the whole six feet, six figures thing? Because we live in a Hunger Games-like economy now, I just think that it's become, and I hate to say this, it's become increasingly important.

38:31And all the data, 75 % of women say economic viability is key to a mate. It's 25 % for men. Women say, there's a lot of dissonance. I want a sensitive man. I don't think women want a sensitive man. I think they want a guy that notices their life. But I don't necessarily think they want an overly sensitive man. I don't think they find that attractive. so there's sort of what how people respond in surveys and what they write editorials in the atlantic on and then there's actually how people actually decide who they want to sleep with if the dude's making 80 grand and the female in the partnership is making 120 i think that marriage survives that's okay it's not a scorecard but when but when the the woman is making 120 the dude's making nothing and he's not great at home and he's a fucking insecure mess because he's hard on himself, that guy becomes really unattractive.

39:23And I don't, you know, therapy, love yourself, maybe that'll work. Here's an idea, universal child care and$25 minimum wage and break up big tech and companies such that there's more jobs and more opportunities for young people. I don't, the only place I go here to try and solve this problem is to hope that we evolve and that we continue to talk about emotional labor and how men can contribute on a variety of levels. But my solution is to put more money in the pockets of young people, level them up such they don't experience the economic anxiety that ends marriages. um but i don't i just think that i think the reality is it's only gotten worse in terms of society a man's view of himself and a woman's view of his sexual currency as being increasingly correlated not decreasingly correlated to how much fucking money he makes and and society in america has made it such that the difference between having money and not having money is, as I said with Katie, okay, you've worked on yourself.

40:28Great. Is that going to get you health insurance for your kids? So I don't like the world we're living in. My attitude is how do we fix it? And my viewpoint is massive programs to put more money in the pockets of all young people. Going back to the dating app example and those studies that you mentioned, which are totally true. When you look at these dating apps, it is just tried and true. we know that women care about how much money is being made. If that is a parameter that is able to be listed, if you're making more money, you're going to get more attention and affirmation from women. I think the trouble with using these studies and looking at these dating apps as a guide is that the dating apps are so flawed and stupid to begin with.

41:13I mean, yes, maybe those guys are getting more attention, but we also know about women that many of them are just not happy with the way the dating world works. I mean, many women don't want to sleep with or engage with relationships with men at all. In fact, we're seeing many women in America saying they just want to leave America. They just want out on this whole system. I think part of the problem is when we look at those dating apps as sort of indicative of sociology and the way humans work, it's kind of misguides us away from the point. Yes, if we were to look within that paradigm, you want to be making more money.

41:52But perhaps the paradigm is rigged to begin with, and perhaps it's not actually a true reflection of what women want. So I just want to give you my take on this what women want question as it relates to money. I think what you say about being a provider and and the idea that being a provider can manifest itself in many different ways is actually extremely important. Because I don't think it's that women want money. I think it's that women want a man who is mature and who can make them feel safe and feel a sense of security. And money turns out to be a pretty good indicator of those attributes.

42:36But— It's not exclusive. It's not exclusive. and there could be a man who makes a lot of money and who is obsessed with it. And I think this is where women start to get anxious about your points. Someone who derives his value from how much money he has. And that's probably pretty unattractive to women because he might have the money, but he also might be quite emotionally unstable, which is actually a risk to the women, evolutionarily speaking. He might just toss her away, move on to the next woman, cheat on her, maybe he'll be an absent father, etc. I don't think that those things have any relevance in hookup culture and in dating app culture, because they're not measured.

43:14But I do think in relationships, they are really important. And what women are looking for is the stability, the loyalty, the long-term support, and money can be an indicator of those things. But it all goes back to what you say, which is providing. Is this person going to provide for me? And can we find in our exploration of masculinity many different examples of ways in which men can provide that aren't necessarily he's making$200 ,000,$300 ,000 a year? I'm with you. And I think that's right. And, you know, demonstrating excellence in different ways, showing up, being good. I think there's a lot of people going to have happy marriages that way.

44:03And I say that and all the data I see is that it's headed the other way. And let me just ask you, and this is anecdotal, of all your friends, right? The guy is a good guy, nice guy, fun, but is kind of struggling professionally. And then the guy who maybe is not that interesting, not that funny, not that good looking, but is just killing it professionally. Tell me about their currency in the sexual marketplace. So I was with you on the guy who's struggling is not going to have value in the sexual marketplace. The guy who's killing it but isn't funny or interesting or magnanimous or charming, I don't think he's anywhere either.

44:49Good for women. Maybe women have decided, I got my own bank, I don't need this douchebag. I think he could buy his way into a temporary and surface level relationship. I think the second guy can have sex. I think he could figure that out. But I don't think that ultimately when the woman sees what's really going on, which is this is someone who isn't actually self-actualized and is less stable than the money seems to suggest. I think at that point, that guy runs into trouble. The first time I sort of connected money and sexual currency was the following. When I was in high school, nobody knew how much money anybody had.

45:30I wasn't at a disadvantage. I had a lack of self-esteem because I went to a high school back when public high schools had different people from different economic classes, university high school on the west side. Right. Single mother, secretary. I didn't have a lot of money. No one cared. I was insecure with bad acne and tall and skinny. Okay. That took my sexual currency down on its own. But the kids who were from rich families, they had nicer sweaters maybe, and you heard about their nice, but no one really cared. I got to college and I was in a primarily Jewish fraternity. And these kids were all super ambitious.

46:09I think two-thirds of my pledge brothers went to law school or medical school. And I remember the little sister chairman, we have this ridiculous thing called little sisters where a bunch of women show up and become your little sister. It's basically the women who are going to hang out and like your fraternity and come to your parties and eventually maybe get boyfriends there. And I remember saying, I remember looking at the list from the guy with solicitor, and we had like four times the number of seniors applying to be little sisters as freshmen. And I said, that doesn't make any sense. And he said, oh, no, no, no, no.

46:44He said, we Jews are nearly as popular with the freshmen because they're going for the hot, going, whatever you term. He goes, by the time they're seniors, they start going for the doctors and lawyers. And it was like, I realized it was the first time I connected money and success to sexual currency. And my observation as I've gotten older is in the last 40 years, it's just gotten so much worse because the opportunities, the upside's so much greater if you have money and the downside's so much worse if you don't. But I don't, your observation was really an interesting one. The guys can no longer just be professionally successful and feel entitled.

47:31I think that's probably a good thing. And I think women having the confidence, some of the research shows, you know, there's this cartoon of a woman in her 30s who never found romantic love. What a tragedy. She's in the windowsill thinking about antidepressants and feeding her seven cats and looking out on a rainy day. Actually, the research shows she's fine. Yeah, maybe she would have liked to have had a family, but she's okay. If a dude hasn't cohabitated with a woman or been married by the time he's 30, there's a one in three chance he's going to be a substance abuser. Widows are happier after their husband dies.

48:05Widowers are less happy. It ends up that men need relationships more than women. And I think a lot of women are saying, are doing the math and going, you know what? I make a good living. Yeah, I don't, you know, I find that the offering out there, I find the products being offered out there are not appealing to me. And I'm no longer economically indentured. And maybe I can have a kid on my own. Maybe I don't want to have kids. And so at the end of the day, I mean, the only thing I don't like about the incel movement, I think it's the V-cell movement. I think they're kind of voluntarily celibate because they have given up working on themselves.

48:45I was an incel until I was 19. I would have liked to have had sex much earlier than that. So I worked on myself. I worked out. I took Accutane to clear up my skin. I got a plan. I went to UCLA. I developed a kindness practice. I developed the ability to approach a woman and have her reject me and then realize I was okay. I started hanging around with interesting, funny people that indicated I was interesting and funny. I worked on it so I no longer would be celibate. That was tremendously motivating. But these dudes who just claim the world is against them. and that no woman would want to be with them, okay, go be a fucking apprentice at a vocational job, show you work hard, hit the gym two or three times a week, be a little bit more well-read, develop a kindness practice, go to church, nonprofits, sports leagues, reading clubs, learn how to approach people, learn what works and what doesn't, you will find somebody.

49:49I think there are probably some incels out there who would say, no, no, you don't understand it. I really am trying and it's really not happening. But your point is very true that this has become such a cultural movement that there are even now economic incentives among these influencers and these incel influencers to be incels. And the perfect example is Nick Fuentes, who's kind of the leader of this whole movement. And, you know, he has actually been, there are videos of him being approached by women and people on his live streams, women on his live streams saying, I'm actually super into you.

50:30To which he'll say things like, no, I'm an incel. That's not me. I'm someone who doesn't get with women. I don't get the girls. You don't understand. And it's like, okay, this is exactly what you're describing. This is now turning into a, it's V-cell. You're voluntarily celibate. You're actively choosing you don't want to participate because you'd prefer to be in the comfort of the victim mindset and believe that the world is unfair and everything's stacked against you. And here's my group of incels, and we prefer just closing ourselves off from the world and complaining about things and complaining about immigrants and women and how women are stupid and all they care about is money and all of these things that feel kind of empowering in the moment.

51:16But long term, I mean, good luck to you if that's going to be your solution, if that's the way that you think that young men should be living their lives. Like, have at it. You're going to get nowhere with that philosophy. And I do want to highlight that because it's so true what you say. There are more V-cells than the incels would like to admit. I think it's a form of anger and mental illness. I also think there's some women who, just to be fair, blame men for everything and have decided to live alone and not even try and just demonstrate. I don't like the word misandry, but I'll use it. But I do think it's more prevalent among men.

51:58And look, I can just tell you as you get older, you know, money is the means. The ends are relationships. relationships. And this notion that you can take pride in not connecting with people, look, I think there's some people who decide to be celibate for whatever reason or not have a romantic relationship or they're fine with their friends and their family. Okay, fine. But at the end of your life, the only thing you're going to have, the only thing you're going to have, the only thing that's going to provide comfort is the number of deep and meaningful relationships you have. And it just breaks my heart that these bigots, nihilists are trying to convince other young men that it's somehow okay and even aspirational to give up on relationships.

52:50No, it's not. I mean, there are a lot of people out there. The number of searches on Google for how do I make friends, places to meet people, has gone up. There are people out there that want to be your friend. We live in almost a full employment economy. You can add value. You can find a job in a capitalist society. If you have a job and you have friends, you can find a lot of meaning in providing support and concern for other people. And the last thing you want, the last thing you want, the last feeling you'll feel will be failure if you die under bright lights surrounded by strangers. If there was anything I could communicate, if I could wrap my arms around all young men who aren't in relationships and have given up trying, the 63 % of men that stop dating, the 14 % of men who are neither, are the needs, neither in education and employment or training, if I could communicate anything to them, like if I could transmorph any belief and just say, trust me on this, it's that the anxiety and depression you're going to feel having spent a lot of your life alone and not trying to engage in relationships is going to be exponentially greater than the fear of anything that waits for you outside of that room.

54:01You know, get out, take risks, endure rejection, level up, work out, try to have a plan, try to be kind, try again, try again, and, you know, make friends, make mentors, make mates if you can. That is the whole shooting match. That's it. I just don't buy. And these guys going down these rabbit holes online. Oh my God, that's a future of anxiety and self-loathing. We'll be right back. For even more markets content, sign up for our newsletter at propertymarkets.com slash subscribe.

55:12Thank you.

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56:28We're back with Prof G Markets. To me, it seems like the magic of money isn't the money when it comes to sexual value and what it does in terms of your sexual currency. the magic of money is what it does to you as a person and that is it's not that the woman wants you because you have the lamborghini and the shiny car it's that if you have money it probably means that you are more self-actualized you've figured out something that you're good at and you're monetizing it you're more confident you believe in yourself you are more stable you're more secure, you feel less anxiety, you feel less of a victim because you are less of a victim if you have money.

57:19Even for the rich kids in college, where it's like, is it the money that they're after or is it what the money is doing to the psychology of those people and this idea that they probably are walking around with an air of greater confidence. And I feel like that's sort of the distinction that needs to be made. Because if you believe that it is just the money, then the answer is, just get more money. That'll solve your problem. And I want to be clear, this is what the Black Pill movement is about. No, no, no. It is simply the money. It is that the women want the money. It's that the women want to be driving around in the Lamborghini.

58:02So if you get the money and you get the Lamborghini, you've solved the problem. What I am putting forward is the idea that it's not actually just the money. It's what the money can give to you on a personal level and how it can make you feel and project more of what it means to be a man. And that's the part that I kind of want to get your views on. So, okay, there's the money itself and the life it affords. And then there's the attributes that come along typically with someone who's able to be successful professionally. So the reason why, or what research indicates, is that women aren't actually visually drawn to a man who is in great shape.

58:45They're drawn to the attributes that reflects. This guy shows up. This guy is disciplined. Exactly. This guy demonstrates the attributes of who might be a good partner. Should money be a signal? Yeah. But what you said about the dude who, you know, the money isn't just the guy who makes a shit ton of money and has a Bugatti, but quite frankly, is a low character person. You're right. My observation, and this is anecdotal because it's hard to assess statistically the character of somebody. but my sense is he can attract sexual partners, but they may not be very high character. That's the thing.

59:25And I think this is where young men are getting misguided is you see Andrew Tate with the Bugatti and he has like a harem of Instagram models with him. And it's like, oh, that's the solution. Like I'm not getting laid. I can't figure out how to talk to a woman. He's got 10 of them and I see the Bugatti. so therefore one Bugatti must equal 10 women. But they're probably being paid to be there. They're almost certainly being paid to be there. And it seems to be just a totally misguided solution to the problem that we're not connecting with each other. Even if you achieve that, and you take a photo of you with 10 women who, I mean, I doubt that there is any sense of actual relationship or connection between any of those women and Andrew Tate.

1:00:20Sure, he solved the I'm not physically in the company of women problem, but has he solved the relationship problem? Has he solved the love problem, the loneliness problem? I doubt he solved any of those problems. And so that's why I think what we need is—and what I like about your message of providing—is solving for the other problems of actual connection with a woman. Not just to have sex with a woman. You can go to Andrew Tate for those lessons, and he's wrong about many of them in my view. but the connection and that seems to be what's actually missing for a lot of young men and what a lot of young men actually want it's like it's not even about i want to have sex it's like i want to have a companion in life i try to do an assessment of my addictions and an addiction is something you continue to engage in despite knowing it's harming other parts of your life and yet you continue to engage in it i'm addicted to the affirmation of strangers i continue to work harder than I should.

1:01:27I continue to take other people's opinion more seriously than I should. I'm desperate for affirmation, despite the fact I'm going to be dead soon. And it really doesn't fucking matter what strangers think of me. And occasionally my obsession with what strangers think of me takes me out of my head and I'm out of prison with the people who do in fact love me. And I do in fact love a great deal. That's an addiction. And it's pathetic at my age to still be that way. And now some of those embers probably make me more successful, but at this point, why do I need? Anyways, that's an addiction. My other addiction is money.

1:01:58I'm traumatized by it. It solved a lot of problems for me. I was able to take care of my mother. I was able to do things I'd always wanted to do, feel better about myself. I have more money than I'm ever going to be able to spend. But I still just accepted a speaking gig for a quarter of a million bucks in Jackson Hole because it's a quarter of a million dollars. And then I think, oh, God, I get to get on. It's not, By the way, there's no direct flights from London to Jackson Hole. I didn't know if you knew that. So I'm basically going to be out of my home for three days. And when I get back at my age, I'm going to be a fucking chocolate mess for two days.

1:02:33So it's like everyone loses dad and their partner for a week for me to get a quarter of a million bucks. I will lose a half a million or a million bucks in the market up or down today. Why am I doing this? and it's because I didn't, I had so little money when I was growing up. I can't resist it. And then I started making rationalizations. Well, I'll give it away. I don't need it, but I'll give it away. Think about how much good I, and yet I continue to damage my health. I continue to not damage my relationships, but not invest. I got one more Thanksgiving with my oldest son and he's gone. He's in college.

1:03:0890 % of the time you spend with your kids is up until the age of 18. Why the fuck am I going to Jackson Hole? Why? And it's because I've been for so long trained to believe that economic security was absolutely everything. And I can't get off that hamster wheel, but I do think that at some point with money and partnership, the most rewarding thing in my life has been not having the money. As I thought about it, well, having the money is pretty cool. But a close second and maybe even first is I made it with a partner. The funnest thing about money is the making it, not even having it, I don't think.

1:03:55I mean, it's great to have it, but if you can find a high character partner and you demonstrate character and you build something together, that is disco. Because if I think if you have a lot of money, I think sometimes if you're not a high character person, as you said, the people you're going to attract aren't necessarily what I call high value people. They may not even like you. Yeah. But the real high character, high value women, they get Ed Olsen. They get a nice, attractive, balanced guy who's a fucking baller professionally and is going to be able to provide. They get to have it all. So everybody in this mating race wants to have a really high character, high value partner.

1:04:36And one of the boxes you need to check if you want that person, I would argue, or a greater selection or opportunity of those people includes real economic trajectory. Well, that's very nice of you to say. Thank you. It seems as though the money thing is one game in life. It's like there are many different games that you can play in life. And it's almost like when you're describing checking the boxes, money is just a giant one. It's a giant, you want to show, if you want to be a man, if you want to be sort of like what it means to be a man, if you want to embrace a sense of masculinity, It's like, you need to demonstrate that you can play that game and you can win that game to a certain degree.

1:05:26But it's almost like there are all of these other games that you need to be able to demonstrate that you can win. You need to be able to demonstrate that you can be dependable emotionally, that you can be kind, that you can sort of handle a lot of pressure and you don't crack. Like, there are all of these different metrics, I feel like, for what it means to be a man. I so agree with your point that it's like we've become so obsessed with money as a society that it's almost taken up all of the space in the room to the point where we can't even keep our eye on the ball and all of the other things that are important and substantive in what it means to be a man.

1:06:10And what I would hate to see is this idea that because you're emphasizing that money does play a role, your message is being interpreted by other people, by your critics who are not reading the book, and saying, that's all that matters. but you've just said it right there it's like you care deeply about money and you have an addiction to money and yet it it isn't everything and it's not even what made you and what make you an aspirational figure both to your wife and to your fans and your listeners because it wasn't about having the money it was about all of the things it was about making the money.

1:06:58It was about sharing the money. It was about building that economic security with someone, laying out a plan, having a trajectory, all of those other things that actually weirdly aren't even about the money. I feel like that's the thing that maybe your critics, I would hope they understood that more about you. Yeah, but you got to keep in mind, if you don't have critics, you're not saying anything, or at least that's what I try to tell myself as I cry into my pillow. So, but I'll give you an example ahead. I have traveled 180 days a year for 30 years. And it's usually on someone else's dime. So I stay at beautiful places.

1:07:39And inevitably, I'll be at the George Sank in Paris, or I'll be at a, I don't know, whatever it is, the almond in Tokyo. And inevitably, if I'm alone, I get upgraded to some ridiculously fat fucking suite. inevitably. And you know what, how much value registers when you're alone in that fat fucking suite? I'm not exaggerating. I get, I've gotten upgraded and I call and I say, how much does this room cost? And, and like, oh, that room's this suite. It would be, we would charge 12 or 15 grand a night. It's worth$300 to me. Cause that's what I can get a bed for. If I'm not there with someone, it's meaningless yes it's meaningless it's like it doesn't register if i can't share it with somebody it has no value i mean literally it's like it didn't happen who cares and it's not only like okay i could be dating a model and she would be really into it and you know be impressed by me, what you want is, I mean, the real goal is even if it's like a decent hotel at Disneyland with your kids, you can like go to sleep with someone and you built it together.

1:08:58And it's like, you get to do these great things because you have this great partnership and you get to share it. And I think getting to stay at some tacky hotel in Disney World that you saved up all year on, but that the kids are next door and you're with someone you enjoy, fuck, that is so much more rewarding than being alone in a$12 ,000 suite at the Almond. What I worry about is that there's so much wrapped up into self-esteem, the way society evaluates you, that as a young man, if you don't at least develop a plan for economic security, just a plan, you don't have to show up at the Range Rover, the Panerai, but I'm going to vocational school.

1:09:42I'm getting my GED and I'm going to vocational school and I'm going to be a plumber's apprentice or I'm taking, I'm going to try, I'm working for a company that installs, you know, cabinetry and this is my plan. And you demonstrate discipline. No, I got to go home. I got to get up early. I work hard. I think that's a pretty decent path. And I worry that big tech seducing men offline or seducing them to go online, that they're not developing confidence, they're not working out, they're not around people to develop social skills, that they're just literally like shutting off all the arteries to relationships.

1:10:22And they're going to wake up. And even if they get the money, even if they figure out that, oh, maybe I'm wrong, maybe Andrew Tate's crypto trading platform they can make millions on. and they wake up with a million bucks. They're out of shape. They're anxious. They see women is just like, what they envision a woman is based on the porn they've consumed. And they really never have a true partner. What I would offer up, unfortunately, is in order to get to that good partnership, it's going to be really difficult if you don't demonstrate as a man economic viability or the potential to be economically viable.

1:10:57It's unfair. It shouldn't be as big and important as it is, but it is. But maybe also it isn't unfair. Maybe it's unfair in terms of how difficult it is to make money today. That's part of the unfairness of the system that we're living in in 2025. But I actually don't find it unfair that the man needs to demonstrate an ability to present some economic viability and ability to provide. I think that that's actually kind of great, because it also inspires you as a man to get your shit together and to work really hard. And that's the piece of it that I'm like, you know, this might actually be a good thing.

1:11:43And, you know, you referenced the idea that the guy who's, you know, enrolling in vocational training, he's coming up with a plan, he's figuring out how he's going to make some money and figuring out his savings plan. And I think that that guy, I would bet, maybe I'm wrong, but I would bet that that guy is more attractive to most women, at least a lot of women, than the guy who made a million bucks on crypto because he got lucky and, you know, rents Lamborghinis in his spare time. I would argue that a woman would be more attracted to the guy who demonstrated the maturity that it takes to actually build wealth in a real way versus the guy who just ran into some money.

1:12:34And I feel like that's something that young people don't understand. and it's leading men into very weird and bad places where we think that if we, to get the girl, screw vocational training, they don't care about guys who make, you know, 75 ,000,$80 ,000 a year. I need to be making, I need to run into a million dollars. So how am I going to get there? And I wonder if that's not even what is attractive. Yeah, the solid guy who's making a good living and is a kind person and did it on his own through his discipline and his hard work and is in good shape and is a nice man and demonstrates kindness and has good relationships with his parents and is patriotic, I think that guy's just fine.

1:13:22And he's going to attract a high caliber mate. I do think that in cities like New York, London, or LA, it's a little bit different because you just need to make so much money to just even live there. But what you said about you know, maybe it's a good thing that men are inspired to be economically successful. I think it's good to a point. And that is, I just think men, I think a little bit of pressure, a lot of pressure on men to be economically viable is probably a good thing. You need to get your shit together. Okay. You're not graduating from college. All right. What are you going to do? You can do an apprenticeship program.

1:13:55What are you going to do? Like that pressure is probably a good thing. And the basis of capitalism is people feel a lot of incentives, which is Latin for pressure on the upside and the downside to be successful and work hard and figure shit out and try and make it work. The problem is I think the pressure has become the pressure and the expectations have become totally irrational. And that is everyone is vomiting their faux wealth on me all day long. It feels like everybody else is making a shit ton of money but me. So I have a lack of self-esteem. And because of poor government policies and economic policies, we have let inflation run amok.

1:14:37We've let education skyrocket in costs. We've made it nearly impossible for new entrants into the housing market. And we've just set up a younger generation of people to feel really bad about themselves on an economic level, which disproportionately impacts the self-esteem of young men. I think these conversations, they're fun and they're interesting because they get at the heart of what it means to be a person. I think that's why these, I mean, it's so triggering and it generates so much heat because, I don't know, it gets at what it means to love and to be loved, how to be understood, appreciated as a person, how to be a member of society.

1:15:18Like, it gets to all of the deep stuff. But it's so true that there is a vision of masculinity that some people believe is really great, like Trump, like Elon, and it is a direction that we might actually be headed in. Nick Fuentes would be another example. So you are kind of spearheading the other side of it. For someone who is really shaping a generation of men and what it means to be a man, if you could just summarize what what do you want them to walk away with what do you want them to walk away with from this conversation what should be the takeaway it's a generous question and there's sort of two things popped into my mind and that is a really valuable piece of feedback i've gotten i've received from the book uh is that all right protector provider procreator aren't women also protectors?

1:16:13Like, isn't that a key component of femininity? And it's true. And now that women are making more money as they should, can't they also be providers? Yeah. There's nuance to each, right? Different forms of protection and providing and procreating and who's the initiator. You know, there's different forms of it. But where I think I'm evolving to on this is that masculinity and femininity all overlap around just trying to be a better human. That to be a better man, in many ways, is just to try and be a better human. And that maybe where I maybe made a mistake here is trying to define stark lines between people born as males or females.

1:17:01And I do think there is differences. I think there's predisposed behaviors we're more prone to, but maybe it's not trying to form. I'd like to think of an aspirational form of masculinity and femininity have this huge overlap around just being just humanity, just being better, better humans. But to your question of what would the one takeaway around what I've written about trying to establish an aspirational form of masculinity, it comes down to this notion that Richard Reeves taught me, and that is surplus value. A lot of people, a lot of males go their whole life and never become men. They die having never become men.

1:17:44And in my view, the metric is not a religious ceremony or age or experiences or money. It's this term surplus value. And that is, do you create more economic value and tax revenue than you absorb? Every day you leave the house, you're absorbing hundreds of dollars of other people's taxpayer money if you expect to go on the roads or expect someone to answer if you call for an ambulance. Are you creating more economic value? That's one way to add surplus value. Are you absorbing more complaints than you're giving? Are you the kind of person that people come to and want guidance, want comfort? Are you providing more comfort than it's been given to you?

1:18:20Are you providing more love and more care for other people than have been provided for you? Do you notice people's lives? Do you have the ability to really see people where they are, understand them, and then add value to their lives, even if maybe they're not noticing or as many people aren't noticing you're alive? Are you a better father to your son than your father was to you? Once you are adding surplus value, that's where you become a man. I think that's a good place to end, but I want to ask another question. When do you think that you became a man? You said that some people go through their whole lives and they never become a man.

1:18:59Was there a moment for you where you realized, I think I'm a man now? I never thought, okay, now I'm a man with some Cat Stevens song in the back.

1:19:13It's very passé, but it comes down to the two big moments for me where I think I started to to kind of slip into manhood were one when my mom got sick, just trying, recognizing I needed to step up and I needed to take care of my mom. And again, a lot of it came back to economics for me. I think I've told you the story. My mom got very sick. I couldn't afford to get her a nurse. It was just very humiliating and upsetting for me. And I got very serious about getting my shit together such that I could take care of my mom because she had always taken care of me. And I think I assumed, oh, that's just the way of the world.

1:19:46People take care of me. That was a wake-up call that I needed. And then not when I had kids, but a few years after when I realized, okay, you're not going to have fabulous brunch with amazing hot people this weekend because you're taking care of your kids. And they're awful and they're selfish and they're assholes. But that's what this whole shooting match is about, is you're there to go to the seventh circle of hell called a birthday party for two-year-olds and see all the other dads finally giving their wives an afternoon off. But, like, thinking, okay, for the first time in my life with kids, I've thought their well-being and success is more important than my well-being and success.

1:20:30And that was such an alien feeling. Yeah. And I've leaned into that around some of my other relationships, and I think that is a pretty decent litmus test for what it means to be a man. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. Mia Silverio is our research leader. Our research associates are Isabella Kinsel, Dan Chillon, and Kristen O'Donohue. Drew Burrows is our technical director, and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof. G Markets from Prof. G Media. Tune in tomorrow for a fresh take on the markets.

1:21:30And the dark flies In love