In short
SpaceX’s IPO and Elon Musk becoming a trillionaire, plus debate over valuation, “manufactured scarcity,” governance (dual-class voting), and how circular deals may distort markets. The episode also covers May inflation (4.2%), wage pressure, and risks of inflation staying high due to tariffs and the Iran situation.
Guests
Ed (host; based in Stockholm, Sweden; investment/market commentary background). Scott (co-host; discusses macro/inflation and market implications; also comments on Fed policy and geopolitical drivers).
Key claims
- SpaceX IPO opened at about $150 (11% above $135) and traded near $160; Musk became the world’s first trillionaire.
- The pop was driven by “manufactured scarcity”: NASDAQ 100 inclusion and index-tracking demand, plus reduced share issuance (5% vs typical 10%).
- SpaceX valuation is extreme: about $2.1T, ~112x last year’s sales; growth is lower than other major IPOs.
- Governance risk: Musk retains 82% of voting power, can’t be fired, and shareholders waive jury trials/class actions; hosts argue this concentrates power.
- Possible wealth transfer: retail investors vs insiders; lockup structure may lead to heavy selling later.
- Google’s AI compute deal with SpaceX is framed as circular (Google owns ~6% of SpaceX), potentially inflating revenues/valuations.
Notable examples
- Hermes “waiting list” and lines as an example of manufactured scarcity.
- Comparisons to Meta/Google IPO price-to-sales multiples.
- Rocket Lab/EchoStar/SpaceMobile down after SpaceX IPO.
- Inflation examples: gasoline +41% YoY, meat +7.5%, fruit/vegetables +6%; Fed rate-hike odds rising.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntro and Banter
0:03 to 2:09
The hosts engage in light banter and discuss their experiences.
“It's the only business software you'll ever need.”
Previewing the SpaceX IPO
2:14 to 6:39
The hosts discuss the implications of SpaceX's IPO and its impact on the market.
“You found your way to aliens and dig size, which is always a good combination.”
Analysis of SpaceX Valuation
6:39 to 13:20
A thorough analysis of SpaceX's valuation and market demand dynamics.
“I hope you have plenty of the well-resolved.”
Elon's Business Strategy
13:20 to 14:03
Discussion on Elon Musk's business strategies and how he creates value.
“So that means it's trading at 112 times last year's sales.”
Evaluating SpaceX's IPO Valuation
14:03 to 16:54
Discussion on SpaceX's IPO valuation and market expectations.
“And then we can just look at the comparison to the price-to-sales multiples of some of the MAG7 companies today.”
Lockup Periods and Selling Pressure
16:54 to 18:19
Analysis of SpaceX's unique lockup structure and potential selling patterns.
“But then over time, they're going to start to realize, okay, now I want to cash out.”
Governance and Power Dynamics
18:19 to 21:48
Exploration of Elon Musk's control over SpaceX and implications for governance.
“So you're allowed to, but the platforms are setting it up to discourage you from doing that.”
Concerns Over Concentration of Wealth
21:48 to 27:47
Discussion on the risks associated with extreme wealth concentration in a capitalist society.
“And I have noticed that some pension funds are opting out because of that number.”
Elon Musk's Relentless Pursuit of Power
27:47 to 28:00
Final thoughts on Musk's accumulation of wealth and influence over time.
“Yeah, but it says something about his priorities, despite the fact that he is the richest man in the world, the richest man in America, the richest man in American history.”
Elon Musk: The Trillionaire Phenomenon
28:00 to 30:41
Exploring the implications of Elon Musk's newfound wealth and its societal impact.
“And if we want to start figuring out, is he the richest man to ever exist on a relative basis?”
Show all 32 chapters
The Impact of Optimism on American Economy
30:41 to 33:19
Discussing how American optimism drives economic risk-taking and its consequences.
“I have some other stuff in here that we can get into, but maybe I'll just pause there and see if you have any reactions.”
Circular Deal-Making in AI and SpaceX
33:19 to 35:59
Analyzing the implications of Google's investment strategies with SpaceX.
“I mean, we've seen how billionaire spending on political campaigns has just exploded ever since Citizens United.”
Market Reflections and Future Predictions
35:59 to 39:20
Reflections on market trends and considerations about shorting stocks.
“So I just thought that we should just point that out.”
Market Reflections and Future Predictions
39:22 to 40:35
Reflections on market trends and considerations about shorting stocks.
“for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.”
Market Reflections and Future Predictions
40:42 to 42:00
Reflections on market trends and considerations about shorting stocks.
“Z-Biotics is backed with 100 % money back guarantee.”
Inflation Insights
42:11 to 46:04
A detailed discussion on the recent inflation report and its implications.
“Inflation rose 4.2 % in May from a year ago, marking the highest reading in three years.”
Long-Term Inflation Predictions
46:04 to 51:46
Exploring long-term inflation expectations and geopolitical influences.
“But if Trump had his way, we risk inflation go to 8 % to 12 % because he would vote to cut interest rate for a short-term bump in his popularity, which could create a panic buying and an upward spiral of inflation.”
Policy and Leadership Challenges
51:46 to 56:00
Analyzing the consequences of policy decisions and leadership failures.
“So this goes back to expectations for what inflation is going to look like over the long term, I think we're going to stick around here for a long time.”
The Dynamics of Political Accountability
56:00 to 1:02:16
Explore the challenges leaders face in admitting mistakes in politics.
“But just to summarize here, this has been an unmitigated disaster.”
The Dynamics of Political Accountability
1:02:24 to 1:04:28
Explore the challenges leaders face in admitting mistakes in politics.
“It's the only business software you'll ever need.”
The Dynamics of Political Accountability
1:04:31 to 1:04:45
Explore the challenges leaders face in admitting mistakes in politics.
“Get three months free at granola.ai slash markets.”
World Cup Ticket Pricing Controversy
1:04:45 to 1:10:08
Discuss the unprecedented ticket pricing strategies by FIFA for the World Cup.
“Over the next six weeks, millions of fans will travel across North America to watch the world's most popular sporting event.”
FIFA's Ticket Pricing Strategy and Fan Experience
1:10:08 to 1:13:21
Discusses FIFA's ticket pricing strategy and its impact on the fan experience at the World Cup.
“were a feature of creating electricity that would come through the TV screen.”
Investigating FIFA's Pricing Practices
1:13:21 to 1:15:08
Explores the legal and regulatory scrutiny surrounding FIFA's pricing strategies and concerns about dynamic pricing.
“They have crushed it for their bottom line.”
Dynamic Pricing in Various Industries
1:15:08 to 1:17:16
Examines the implications of dynamic pricing beyond sports, including grocery stores and other consumer goods.
“Because with AI, with algorithms, you can essentially just jack up the prices, even based on your personal consumer data.”
The Economic Impact of the World Cup
1:17:16 to 1:19:28
Analyzes the economic effects of the World Cup, including job creation and rising costs in host cities.
“We are pulling bullshit on Iranian managers and not granting them visas.”
Fan Adaptations to Skyrocketing Costs
1:19:28 to 1:21:32
Describes how fans are adjusting their plans, including walking long distances to attend games due to high costs.
“So what we're seeing there is it's the Americans are going to be showing up.”
Reflections on Personal Experiences and Choices
1:21:32 to 1:23:56
Scott shares a personal story that parallels the discussion on affordability and decision-making.
“When my dad got divorced for the third or fourth time, he was living alone in Ocala, Florida on a mattress.”
Reflections on Family and Life Choices
1:24:00 to 1:25:16
Learn about the host's personal experiences and reflections on life choices influenced by family dynamics.
“Fortunately, my dad was too self-absorbed and non-thoughtful to really recognize in a sober fashion the life he was leading.”
Predictions on Market Dynamics and SpaceX
1:25:16 to 1:26:39
Explore predictions about the economic implications of SpaceX's IPO and market trends related to artificial scarcity.
“And I believe what happened was the following.”
Future of Inflation and Market Events
1:26:39 to 1:27:34
Hear forecasts on inflation rates and significant market events expected in the coming months.
“The prediction is Musk is going to spend more on the midterms than any individual has spent on any election.”
Future of Inflation and Market Events
1:29:36 to 1:29:50
Hear forecasts on inflation rates and significant market events expected in the coming months.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.
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1:51avon.com. Stop overpaying for capital. Avon Financial, Inc., NMLS, number 2042345. Cards issued pursuant to a license from Beasley USA, Inc. by Coastal Community Bank. NMLS, number 462289. Member FDIC equal housing lender. Subject to approval terms apply. Visit avon.com for details. Today's number 40 ,000. That's how many bottles of wine are in joseph stalin's wine vault which the georgian government unsealed for the first time last month that i don't know if you heard but an alien race of women have been abducting men with especially large dicks so you're safe and also um this spaceship is just fucking amazing
2:46Ed, I couldn't find a joke about Stalin that wasn't really, really bad. Yeah, I can imagine. Really bad. You found your way to aliens and dig size, which is always a good combination. I thought it was good. I think it works. A little ribbing of the co-host. Nothing wrong with that. That's what they come here for. My love language is giving people a hard time and then giving them money. That's true. That's true. How are you, Ed? I'm doing well. You're in Sweden, I understand. Yep. I'm in Stockholm, which has not participated in a war in 200 years. And that's why it's such a beautiful city. Something happens when you avoid the most wealth-destroying events in history.
3:25You avoid wars. It is beautiful. I can see you living here. You look like you'd fit in here. You look very Swedish. 100%. Yeah, I was there a couple years ago for a speaking gig, and I just loved it there. It was beautiful. It really is nice, yeah. Is it hot? No, it's like 60, 65 degrees, and what it is is it's light. It basically never gets really. It kind of feels like from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m., it just feels like dusk. It's a little weird. I think I'm a little bit manic, and now I'm crashing. Wrong day to give up meth, Ed. Wrong day to give up meth. Well, you're missing some incredible vibes here in New York.
4:03I bet. For this unbelievable win. I mean, this episode, we're recording this before game five. So who knows what will happen by the time this episode goes out. But vibes are electric here. I mean, this is a whole nother reason to be in New York. It's just unbelievable. And if we continue this, if the Knicks continue to be as dominant as they appear to be, I really think that this just changes the meaning of summers in New York. I mean, this is like everyone on the streets on a random Wednesday night until two in the morning. You can either be upset about that or you can love it. But the point is, I mean, this city is on fire right now and it's all because of the Knicks.
4:46So you're missing out. I so fucked up. I was supposed to be there this whole week. I told you this, right? Right. I was invited to the Chanel party, to the Tribeca Film Festival, to game two or three of the Knicks. I was going to have such a good time and I had all these cool business meetings lined up. And then I got a little bit drunk and I saw one of those fucking TikToks saying that 90 % of the time you spend with your kids is over by the time you're 18. And I freaked out, bombed to the airport, went home, walked in thinking I was like MacArthur returning to his loving family or Phil from Phil Dunphy from Modern Family.
5:22I walk in, my two boys are there, and literally this is what I got. That's it. They nodded. They kind of turned their head and looked up like, hey, bro. But no, hey, bro. Nothing. Literally nothing. And then what'd you do? Did you punish them? You got to punish them for that. I have never punished my kids once. I threatened to punish a lot. I threatened to punish. That's it. I'm taking your phone away. And then I realized they used their phone to order food for me. To order the five guys? Yeah. Yeah, such that I don't starve, and it's how they get on the subway with their phone now. Anyways, but yeah, I don't—they didn't appear to miss—I fucked up.
6:01I would love to be in New York right now. Well, you learned your lesson, basketball and sexy parties over kids every time. 100 percent. What am I thinking? And now you know and can take this forward. You have some learnings, and you can change your behavior. So there's always a silver lining to messing things up. I'm going to overwhelm my imposter syndrome with sincere incompetence.
6:28I like that. I like that. That was clever. I'm going to think about that too. All right. Well, we have a lot to get into here. Shall we get into our stories? Let's do it. Now is the time to cry. I hope you have plenty of the well-resolved. The biggest IPO in history has finally arrived. SpaceX began trading under the ticker SPCX at$150, an 11 % jump from its IPO price. And as trading began, shares rose to around$160, which is close to 20 % up from the original IPO price. The debut marks a historic milestone for Elon Musk, whose net worth has now surpassed$1 trillion. dollars. Elon is officially the world's first trillionaire as of this IPO.
7:21It's also a major moment for the broader market. After years of waiting for the private market's biggest winners to go public, investors are finally getting their chance with Anthropic and OpenAI expected to follow. SpaceX is the first in a wave of blockbuster IPOs that could define the next era of the public market. So Scott, let's get into this. SpaceX was the IPO price. The issuance price was$135. We were all wondering if it would pop as soon as it started trading. My prediction, you might remember, was that the stock would pop immediately 25 % as soon as it started trading. It immediately seemed like that was the case because we were hearing murmurs that the stock was going to go out at 170, maybe close to 175.
8:07But then as soon as it officially opened, it opened at around $150. That's an 11 % jump, a success, but not as much of a success as many of us, including myself, predicted. And now we're discussing this during the trading day on Friday and shares are hovering around 160, moving up to 165. It's incredibly volatile right now. Let's just start with your initial reactions. We can get into the valuation too. Some interesting new news. Also the fact that Elon is now a trillionaire. But let's start with your initial reactions to this stock finally going public. Well, if Elon Musk had a dollar for every racist and stupid tweet or thing he's ever said, oh wait, he does now.
8:50He does now, Ed. You know, I try to get excited about this because Because a lot of people, you know, you could argue a lot of people have been made up. I talked to someone here in Stockholm who works for one of the investment banks taking them out. And he reminded me, he's like, look, it's great for economic growth. There's supposedly more than a dozen or a dozen and a half people just in Texas who no one's ever heard of who became billionaires today. And they'll go start companies, make investments, buy things, feel the economy. and you also see people excited about the markets, more capital flowing into the U.S.
9:27markets. They're gonna spend that money, economic growth, GDP. The problem I have is where I come back to earth here is that who is funding all this and where is that money coming from? And I still would argue this is the greatest transfer of wealth we've seen, at least in a short time, from retail investors to a small concentration of people since crypto. And I'm, you know, I'm a boomer. I just look at this and I think it doesn't make any sense. And what I think we have here, and it hasn't gotten enough discussion, is the greatest and most scaled example of manufactured scarcity. I was walking around Stockholm today and I walked by an Hermes store and they purposely have a line.
10:15I looked in the store, it wasn't that busy, but they purposely create a line to create the sense of scarcity. And then if you go in and try and buy a Birkin bag, they put you on a waiting list and they tell you, oh, no, no, no. And these are not complicated things to manufacture, but they want to create the illusion of scarcity or manufactured scarcity. And what I don't think people are focused enough on here, and there's been news on it, but it's really, I think the whole shooting match, is that Musk threatened not to go public on the NASDAQ unless they waive the 12-month requirements for him to be included in the NASDAQ 100.
10:47So they backed down, they blinked. The S &P said no, the Dow Jones said no, but the NASDAQ blinked. And the result is they're immediately included in these indices. If it's at$2 trillion and there's 50 trillion of market cap in the NASDAQ 100, that means all the indices that track the NASDAQ 100 now have to put 4 % of their assets under management into SpaceX stock, creating anywhere between 20 and call at$50 billion in additional demand that no IPO benefits from. In addition, traditional IPO rules are that you have to issue at least 10 % of your shares. They didn't. They issued 5%. So, massive artificial demand or demand that no one else has benefited from, from constrained supply that no one else has been able to manufacture.
11:41and what you have is a pop, a 20 % or 25 % pop on what I think is manufactured scarcity. Now, the question is, where do you go from here? And I would argue, someone called me and said, I have access to shares. Should I do it? I said, I think you should, but I would look at this as a trade, not as an investment. Because eventually that manufactured scarcity begins to leak. You know, lockups come off. After a couple earnings calls, there will be some settling around where the stock, you know, reasonably should be. But I think what we saw today was going to go down in the history books for bankers, the NASDAQ backing down, Elon Musk's power in the marketplace, creating a level of manufactured scarcity, the likes of which we have never seen before.
12:29And just the last thing this person told me who works at one of the lead underwriters is they did no less than 500 calls with high net worth investors, taking them through the deal and why it was a good idea. So you have had some of the most talent people in finance basically crawling over anyone with a heartbeat or a pulse, high net worth, retail, et cetera, to try and create unbelievable demand. So the bankers have done their job here. I think they're going to get about a half a billion dollars in fees. I thought it was a billion, but someone correct me and said it's half a billion. I think it's a little more than that, around$650 million in fees.
13:09Yeah. There you go. But again, the key to a luxury brand, the key to irrational margins is manufactured scarcity. We've never seen it like this. He's the king of the markup. Let's just look at the valuation here. It's currently at around$2.1 trillion. dollars. So that means it's trading at 112 times last year's sales. We've pointed this out before, but Meta went public at 28 times trailing revenue, and they were growing revenues 88 % the year before the IPO. Google went public at about 10 times trailing revenues, growing revenues 240 % the year before the IPO. This is more than 100, and it grew 33 % last year.
13:49And in its most recent quarter, it grew 15%. So it has, I mean, massively lower growth than some of these other IPOs. In fact, more than an order of magnitude, lower growth than many of these very successful tech IPOs. And then we can just look at the comparison to the price-to-sales multiples of some of the MAG7 companies today. MET is trading at seven times sales, Microsoft's at less than 10 times sales, alphabets at around 11 times sales. I mean, right there, you have your answer. This is wildly valued as a company. And the question, of course, is why are people down to pay this much? And I think Gil Luria said something really, really true and really striking on the show when we had him on last week.
14:38He said that Elon, essentially what he does, he has this trick where he has his business that he sells for today, the business of tomorrow, and then the business that's way out in the future. In the case of Tesla, you have the cars today, and then you have the robotaxis tomorrow, and then you have the humanoid robots way out in the future. And in the case of SpaceX, he's done the same thing where you have Starlink today, you have orbital space-based data centers tomorrow, supposedly, and then way out in the future, you have asteroid mining, and you have building civilizations and populations on Mars.
15:13And all of that is a function of storytelling. That's basically all he's doing in the same way as you described, that Hermes can mark up their handbags to these extraordinary prices because they're really good at selling the brand, creating a culture and creating an ethos around the brand. And that's what allows them to do it. Elon is doing the exact same thing here. The question is, how long does this last? I mean, I predicted, I think you predicted, I think many of us predicted that on day one, this would be a hit. I got to say, it's been a little bit, I would say, underwhelmed compared to what expectations were.
15:54I thought it was going to be 25 % immediately. And I saw a world in which it could go even higher than that. We looked at an 11 % jump right at the opening. But again, the question becomes, what is it going to look like over the next five, six, seven, eight months, what's going to happen as the lockup periods expire? And we could also note that it has some kind of funky lockups compared to traditional IPOs, which usually there's an 180-day cliff. And instead, SpaceX has opted for this rolling release valve where they essentially let you sell your stock in what is essentially 20-day increments.
16:31It starts off to 70 days, and then 90 days, and then under 20 days. It's a kind of complicated setup, which is designed to make it easier to sell your stock over the short term. And my assumption is we're going to see unprecedented selling because I think everyone knows this thing is very hot right now. It's in demand, big day on the IPO, and that is somewhat what we're seeing. But then over time, they're going to start to realize, okay, now I want to cash out. Now I'm going to sell. And so my expectation is that the stock is going to get cut in half over the next six months as the lockup periods expire and as all of the hype and the excitement starts to wear off.
17:10There's just so many things here that lead to a transfer of wealth and power from the little guy to the big guy. So, for example,$3.75 billion was reserved to give to friends and family with no lockup. So why wouldn't they give those to, I don't know, journalists who say nice things about SpaceX or to Trump, Don Jr.? Hey, we have worked with our bankers. We think there's going to be a 20 % pop here. You know, would you like an easy$2 million? Put$10 million in. Not that I'm recommending this, but you can sell on the first trade if you want. We think there's going to be at least a 20 % pop. And meanwhile, the retail investor who might be subject to these weird lockups is crazy.
17:53What you're effectively doing is creating a different class of stock. You're not supposed to do that. My understanding of securities law is that when one class of stock has different trading rights than another, and you're not an insider, you've created a different class of shares. By the way, I just want to just to clarify, the retail investors actually can sell if they want to via these brokerage apps. But supposedly if they do sell, then apparently they're going to be not allowed to buy into future IPOs. So you're allowed to, but the platforms are setting it up to discourage you from doing that.
18:25So call it a soft lockup. Soft lockup, yeah. But when you create different conditions on the sale and purchase of a stock, you're creating a new equity unless you're an insider. Somehow, I thought that was illegal according to the SEC, but supposedly that's not legal. We don't have much of an SEC anymore. Yeah. Yeah, so this is, again, it just feels like look out below. The thing I wasn't anticipating, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on it, I would have thought that the other guys would have traded up in sympathy. And according to Mia here, where Rocket Lab, EchoStar, and SpaceMobile have declined 10%, 12%, and 14 % respectively.
19:07I would have thought they would have traded up in sympathy with this. I don't know if it's because people had to sell that stuff to get into this. Correct. Do you think that's it? A hundred percent. And this is the thing that we were saying last week in terms of the equity supply. And we've seen this with a lot of the big tech names. We saw this with Microsoft and the Mag7 stocks and some of the chip stocks even, where in order to fund the incredible demand, essentially, or I guess, given the massive injection of supply that has entered the markets because of the SpaceX IPO, a lot of people didn't have the money to fund that.
19:45And so what did they do? They decided to sell their positions. And this is what I said to you on the show last week. If you don't have the money available to buy the SpaceX IPO, but you want in, what do you sell? You probably sell your existing tech positions. You don't sell your defensive positions. You certainly don't sell your house, but you sell all of your more speculative positions, trim those down so that you can fund this new position. So yes, Virgin Galactic is down. AST Space Mobile is down. Rocket Lab is down. And in the buildup to this IPO, we saw the same thing with many of the tech names.
20:21So I think, and this is exactly what we said, I think that when you have open AI going public as well, Anthropic going public, I mean, we'll see when they go public. It seems like they're going to go public very soon, perhaps around the same time. You're going to see the same dynamic. In order to fund that, in order to keep up with supply, as we said, this is econ 101. When there is more supply, that results in lower prices overall. all, when we see that massive injection of supply, suddenly investors are going to have to think, okay, how do I get in? I'll trim my position in Tesla. I'll trim my position in these tech companies.
20:55And that way I can get into these stocks. So that is exactly what we're seeing right now in the space market itself. You also mentioned the idea of different classes of shares here, which I think is very important. And it's especially important as it relates to Elon Musk, who will retain 82 % of the voting power of this company, which is now one of the top 10 most valuable companies in the world. It's more valuable than Tesla. He owns 82 % of the voting power. He picks the board. He cannot be fired by anyone other than himself. He has also required shareholders to unconditionally waive the right to jury trials and class action lawsuits because he has PTSD from being sued by Tesla shareholders.
21:37and of course he is also incorporated in Texas and as we've discussed on the show the Texas Business Court is famously weak on protecting shareholders it's very pro-founder it's very pro CEO it's very pro-insiders 82 % of the voting power I mean maybe that makes you confident because you really trust Elon but if you don't trust this guy if you don't trust his judgment entirely if you think that he's spending the majority of his time on ketamine or whatever you think, that's a terrible number to see. And I have noticed that some pension funds are opting out because of that number. What do you make of that from a governance perspective?
22:16Well, so corporate governance is based on governance. And that is, it's supposed to be one share, one vote, like one man, one vote, right? That's the idea, that if you want to attach economic sacrifice or risk to authority. So ideally what you want in a company is that if 51 % of the shares vote for a certain action to fire the CEO or to sell the company or to put in place certain initiatives, that they, given that they've put 51 % of their capital at risk, that they get 51 % of the vote. Dual-class shareholder companies basically separate ownership from authority. And that is, and it initially was invented by owners of newspapers and media companies who said, we're worried that a bad person is going to come in and use their economic power to buy a great media company and use it for their bad actor means.
23:09Google's founders were the first to demand a dual-class shareholder company and want to maintain control with a minority position. And it actually, the VCs pushed back and ultimately Larry and Sergey won out. And that created a flood of new companies with dual-class shareholder structures. Everyone from Richemont, the Sulzbergers own less than 1 % of the New York Times, and they control it. The Ford family owns, I think, single-digit percentage of Ford. They control Ford. I'm not as excised by that because my sense is buyers need to do their own research. And there's a lot of companies that have a similar dual-class shareholder structure.
23:48And they know what they're getting into or they don't. But that's up to them. There's two sides of the straight. If you don't want Elon in charge, don't buy the stock. What I'm more worried about, and I think it's a bigger existential risk, is that we now have one man, and specifically this man, who has more wealth than any man in history by any ratio. And wealth in a capitalist society and in an economic economy is just infinitely more powerful. So this is someone who can turn off and on battlefield technologies. And I've already said to you, I think the fix is in. I think that my guess is Donald Trump has had many conversations or an open dialogue with Elon Musk.
24:26and uh elon musk is now you know okay so he's a trillionaire and say he he got say he leaned on trump i mean first off let's talk let's just talk about that wealth that amount of wealth and power i believe results with citizens united in an undue amount of political influence and generally speaking, for example, most elections are kind of, you know, 49-51 or 47-53. And when you have someone who basically might say, hey, Donald, you know, put pressure on your SEC chair to wave all these stupid rules in exchange. You know, I'm now a trillionaire. I put 250 million to work in your campaign and had an influence.
25:13What if I put 10 billion to work now? 1 % of my net worth. and so i i think it's just a very i think power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts also i don't think elon musk has acquitted himself well in terms of judgment so i think i think we're in a that dual class shareholder poor governance that doesn't freak me out people can decide to sell the stock what freaks me out is having someone who doesn't live with other people as far as I know, is estranged from, you know, one or more of his children, and has got a substance abuse issue and sleeps with a loaded gun next to his bed, and believes there's a white genocide taking place in South Africa, is now the most powerful person to ever exist on the planet.
26:00And just to wrap up this word salad, I've now gone to where Gary Stevenson, you know, Gary's economics is, and that is he reframed my view of taxes in the sense that he said, taxes are protection from corruption. They're protection from people aggregating too much power. And as I sit here in Stockholm, where there's higher tax rates, we have this false argument in the United States that democracy and socialism can't coexist. And that's the wrong argument. What they've settled here in Sweden, as I walk around and see GDP growth of 2 % and no homeless people and really great education, is that you can have billionaires and universal childcare.
26:50And so this notion that it's one or the other, that you have to put up with homeless people and weirdness and corruption. Sweden has produced Spotify, Klarna, King, Ericsson. They have the GDP of$75 ,000 per individual with a population of North Carolina and a deficit that is 30 % of GDP versus ours at 130. And I think that the, what I'll call the billionaire class has created this argument that, no, you can't have economic growth unless you have this incredibly low taxation rate. And obviously, I'm a little bit fond of Sweden right now because it's a summer day in Stockholm. But I think this country and other places say that that is just a bullshit argument from people who want to aggregate way too much fucking power.
27:43So, dual-class shareholder company, I'm not worried about it. one man with this much power, I think that's a risk. Yeah, but it says something about his priorities, despite the fact that he is the richest man in the world, the richest man in America, the richest man in American history. And if we want to start figuring out, is he the richest man to ever exist on a relative basis? I'm not sure exactly, but I know for certain that that is true of the history of America, where he's worth 3.2 % of US GDP. And the next richest in history was John D. Rockefeller, who was worth less than half of that on a relative basis.
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28:21But he still needs that power. He still needs to have more than 80 % of the voting power of this company. And it's just striking the sense in which it is actually never enough for him. He has to continue to accumulate more and more wealth, more and more power. And any time that there are any norms placed on him, this is what usually happens. This is usually how voting power is divvied up when you go public, he has to reject them. He says, no, I'm not doing it unless I have total control over the entire thing. And let's just, I mean, a trillion dollars. We should just like put that into perspective because we're only a week away from normalizing that.
29:01You know, I've been seeing people on Twitter, mostly Twitter, but people on social media, basically getting excited for him that he's now a trillionaire. He posted some meme about how he's now a trillionaire. And I see a lot of people retweeting it and being like, let's go Elon. He crushed it, which is such a strange... I don't understand it, but it's some strange blend of sycophancy with this belief that you too will eventually become a trillionaire or he's kind of sticking it to the man in some way, even though he is now the man because he is literally worth a trillion dollars. I don't really know what the psychology is, but I know that we're about to normalize it.
29:42I just want to put this in a perspective, this makes Elon, now that this company's gone public, richer than the bottom 46 % of the entire world population combined. So he has more wealth than 3.8 billion people. And the Southern Hemisphere. Yes. That is crazy. And it's not socialist or communist to state that fact and to say, wow, that's a lot of power. That's a lot of money. But there's so much sensitivity about this issue. As soon as you bring it up, people go, oh, so what? You're a communist now? You just want to socialize everything? Seize the means? I mean, we just need to state the facts here.
30:26This guy's worth a trillion dollars. That's absurd. That's crazy. There's no way that that is going to be efficiently allocated throughout the markets. That, to me, doesn't say that the markets are working as they are intended. So I 100 % agree with your point. I have some other stuff in here that we can get into, but maybe I'll just pause there and see if you have any reactions. There's one of the greatest features of Americans is their optimism. Americans think they're going to be rich. And it enables them or encourages them to take risks, to move, to quit their jobs, go to where they think their human capital will be better used, do startups.
31:04It encourages them to make crazy investments. And as a result, we have one of the, you know, the most impressive economy in history. There's a real upside to that optimism. The downside is that everybody believes their lottery ticket is going to be a winner. Yeah. And you end up with a trillionaire while 40 % of American households have medical or dental debt. And it just strikes me that we've created this false flag or this false argument that you can't have this type of economic growth while having universal healthcare. Sure you can, but you have to fund it. And this rooting on, I think I can understand rooting on SpaceX.
31:50I can understand rooting on someone who makes extraordinary wealth. I guess what I would ask is, should that person be taxed at a progressive tax rate? And do we want a world in which so many people are having a difficult time making ends meet and one person who if they stack dollar bills or hundred dollar bills gets a third of the way to the moon and people say well that's a function of capitalism no it's not there's there's capitalist countries all over the world where you know kids don't you know one in five households don't have kids who are food insecure so i i actually you know where i land on this is one distinctive the offering, and you know my feelings about the manufacturer's scarcity, but on the social side of things, I think it's great that someone can make a trillion dollars.
32:41What bothers me is that they're not taxed at a decent rate, and we don't put the same safeguards or apply the same norms to them, thereby, again, reflecting, Elon Musk is probably going to decide who the next president is. I think we're naive to think that he doesn't have that power now. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, it's one thing to play the game and make a lot of money playing the game, but it's a different thing to rig the game and make a lot of rigging it. And that seems to be what the direction we're headed, especially the extent to which these people like Elon appear to be buying our politics.
33:19I mean, we've seen how billionaire spending on political campaigns has just exploded ever since Citizens United. And it does result in these regulations, which makes it easier to make huge amounts of money particularly with this insider trading stuff, which is why I believe that that is probably the biggest issue that we're seeing in the current administration right now, is just the total collapse of investor protections and the increase of insider trading. One final point I just want to point out, related to the circular deal-making that we've described in the past, and this is very interesting, and our research assistant Dan Shallon pointed this out, and it's a really good point.
33:55After the S1 drop for SpaceX, they announced this deal with Google, where Google was going to buy$920 billion per month worth of AI compute from SpaceX. And a lot of people said, hey, SpaceX has a good business now. They're figuring it out. It was very strange, though, because we also have to recognize that Google owns 6 % of SpaceX. So once again, we have a situation where the investor is the customer at the same time. And so when you think about it at the current valuation, 100 times sales-ish, when you think about it that way, for every dollar that Google spends on SpaceX compute, they get about$6 back in shareholder value because they own 6 % of the company.
34:42Now, that already is like, that's weird. You're paying for something and then getting something in return in the form of higher returns for your shares. Here's where it gets weirder. Google will pay SpaceX$8 ,400 per GPU per month. Compare that to Anthropic, and their deal with Anthropic was announced within weeks of the Google deal. Compare that to the Anthropics deal with SpaceX. They're paying$3 ,800 per GPU per month. So Google is paying more than double what Anthropic, supposedly their competitor, is paying. And the deal was announced basically at the same time. And you have to wonder why.
35:25I think the answer is they're down to pay a ridiculous price because they are a shareholder and because they know that if they pay that amount, then they'll get it back. And so I think this is just more evidence of how these circular deals are distorting the AI economy. It's inflating the revenues of various companies. In this case, it's inflating SpaceX's revenues, if that is indeed what is happening. And at the same time, it's inflating the valuation, which simultaneously inflates Google's valuation. It's all getting a little bit weird. So I just thought that we should just point that out. Do you have any final quick words on SpaceX before we wrap this up?
36:10I hope he goes to Mars and then Houston says, this is an incredible step for mankind and then cuts off all communication from him. I don't know. So the question, rather than preaching, I think he asked people where are they actually putting their money? I haven't shorted a stock in a long time. And I don't think I'm going to short SpaceX because it's a meme stock. And I wouldn't recommend that to anybody because I shorted GameStop during the meme phenomena. And I shorted it at$400. And the next morning, it went to$600. And I was sitting there going, but it makes no sense. It's like the markets hold my beer on what makes sense or what doesn't, right?
36:50And fortunately, I had the capital to hold on and ended up making money. What I am considering doing is looking at all these other, I thought all these different AI and space companies were all going to trade up. I think there's a lot of crap out there. I think there's a lot of AI companies trading for a billion or three billion that are basically, I think there's that one food delivery thing that has these little robots. All Buds, the new AI company. Whatever it is, right? I think there's a lot of, for the first time, and again, not financial advisors, I'm getting a list of kind of a dozen companies that have benefited from this AI, you know, IPO mania.
37:29And I'm going to create a basket and do some long-dated puts, out-of-the-money puts. All right. Because this does feel, I am now confident saying, this absolutely feels like 99 again. I mean, this does feel. This changed the game. This SpaceX IPO changed the game for sure. 100%. Your thoughts, Ed? No, I think that's interesting. I personally won't because I'm afraid of shorting and I just think that it's such a difficult game to win. But I do want to see your basket and maybe I'll change my mind once you send it to me. We'll be right back after the break. and if you're enjoying the show, send it to a friend and please follow us on YouTube, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
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42:11We're back with ProfG Markets. Inflation rose 4.2 % in May from a year ago, marking the highest reading in three years. Meanwhile, real wages fell for the second straight month, meaning Americans are once again seeing prices rise faster than their incomes. That puts even more pressure on the Federal Reserve ahead of Wednesday's interest rate decision. It'll be the first meeting with Kevin Walsh serving as governor, and investors are increasingly betting that the Fed may need to stay aggressive on Calci. The odds of a rate hike before 2027 have climbed to roughly 50 percent. And if you remember at the start of the year, the odds were in the single digits.
42:53So, Scott, this inflation report, we're up to 4.2%. I'll just point out that before we had the tariffs, essentially the inflation that Trump inherited was 2.3%. Then we put on the tariffs and it rises to 3 % within a year. And then we add this war in Iran on top of that and a strait that remains blockaded. and we keep on hearing about a deal, but then we also see that we're striking Iran, striking missiles in Iran. Trump is now saying that he wants to take Cog Island. And so you add that war on top of it, you add on the inflation in oil prices, and we are now at 4.2%. We are above 4%. We're more than two full percentage points above the Fed's target rate.
43:42There's a lot to say here about this inflation report. Where would you like to don't. So let's just, for a reference point, let's compare it to some other G7 countries or neighbors. Mexico, we're at 4.2. Mexico is at 3.9. The eurozone is at 3.2. Canada, our neighbor to the north, we put these ridiculous tariffs on. Despite that, and 70 % of their export market being to the U.S., their inflation is at 2.8. The U.K., 2.8. Japan, 1.4. And China, kind of our economic rival, their inflation, 1.2%. And the problem is, is that most people don't understand the power of compounding. So they hear 4.2 and they think, oh, that's nothing.
44:22My mortgage is 6%. My auto loan is 8%. My interest rate on my credit card is 15%. So just to do some math, if inflation were to stay like this and you had a baby, when that kid was ready to go to college, and that may sound like a long way away, but trust me, it goes faster than you think. Like, you know, see above, they're indifferent when you fly all the fucking way home and miss the next game. But anyway, all of a sudden, the tuition, if inflation were to just keep compounding the way it is now, and you had a baby, when that kid goes to, say, USC, where the tuition is$68 ,000, that means tuition is going to be$136 ,000.
45:01If we in academia don't continue to raise tuition faster than inflation, which we've done for the last 40 years, people have a tough time imagining anything in 18 years. So let's just go out. Your kid starts at USC as a freshman. If inflation were to continue going at 4.4%, that means a new car, which usually costs$49 ,000, by the time they graduate from college, it would be$60 ,000. People don't realize that this number may sound innocent. It's not. I think that's an important point, but it has a very big if in the statement, which is if this remains at above 4 % for the next several years. What I can tell you is most people do not think that that will happen.
45:44Most people on Wall Street do not think that would happen. If that did happen, it would be basically a gigantic disaster for the entire U.S. economy, especially if we see that the wage growth continues to be lower than the price growth. So I take your point, but there are a lot of big ifs there. And so I guess my question that I would follow up with to you is, do you believe that this is going to last? You said years. I don't. But if Trump had his way, we risk inflation go to 8 % to 12 % because he would vote to cut interest rate for a short-term bump in his popularity, which could create a panic buying and an upward spiral of inflation.
46:23I mean, it's not unthinkable to think inflation could go to 8 % or 10%. Fuck, it's not. I mean, inflation starts, the fear, the real panic is that people start thinking, I got to get rid of my cash because asset prices are going up so fast. So whenever people get cash in Argentina, they don't haul onto it. They either transition it to Bitcoin or they buy something. And to think that that can't happen here is to ignore what's happened with every fiat currency in history, that eventually the political pressure to print more money and not be fiscally responsible outweighs any see about fiscal responsibility and end up with too much money chasing too few products.
47:02So will it likely happen? No. Could it? Absolutely. And what people also don't recognize is that inflation is yet another transfer of wealth from earners to owners. Inflation has been out of control in Argentina since the end of World War II. But the same wealthy families are still wealthy because if you own land, if you own assets, I'm hedged against inflation because I own a bunch of real estate and I own a bunch of stocks. And as inflation goes up, so does the price of rent, so does the price of buying an iPhone. So my Apple shares in my house goes up in value. Who gets fucked is you and everyone else on this podcast whose wages do not keep pace with inflation.
47:45So again, inflation is especially difficult on earners versus owners, and it's yet another transfer of wealth emerged to owners, thereby increasing income inequality. And when you talk about dissatisfaction and anger, again, I love that basic premise that revolutions aren't started by people who are unemployed. It's started by people who are working two jobs and are still hungry. So inflation, the Fed's job, you know, Fed is to keep employment at a certain level or unemployment below a certain level and to ensure inflation never gets out of control. But that is the wrong order. They know that inflation is the thing that brings down nations, not unemployment.
48:26Yeah. I mean, just looking through some of the increases in prices here, I mean, obviously, airfares are way up 27 % year over year, gasoline, all types of gasoline up 41 % fuel oil up 59 % year over year. But it isn't just oil prices that are causing the harm here. I think as, I mean, there are some downstream effects and it's kind of this awful combination of the tariffs combined with the war blocking the Strait of Hormuz. So you've got non-alcoholic beverage prices up almost 6%, fruit and vegetable prices up more than 6%, and meat prices up 7.5%. So what we have here are exploding grocery prices, which, as you say, is really a tax on lower and middle income households in America.
49:16Generally speaking, the richest households aren't all that worried about the price of groceries going up. But it really eats at your purchasing power if you are in the lower quintile of earners. So that is a real problem. Um, I think the question, I mean, you say inflation could get to eight or nine percent. Like, I agree, but I think anything can happen in general. I think what we want to be doing and thinking about is what is the most likely scenario. I think that a lot of people believe or the sort of the consensus is that this is temporary and it's going to come down. and the reason for that belief is that they believe that Trump is going to resolve the issues in Iran and that we're going to come to some semblance of a deal with Iran and all of the oil that's being blocked up in the Strait of Hormuz is going to flow again and then prices are going to come back down.
50:11That is generally the consensus when you look at prices and also when I speak with people on Wall Street, when I speak with Wall Street analysts, when I speak with economists, like that is the general belief. I'd be curious to get your views and I know you have some updated views on Iran, which I find interesting. I'd want to hear from you, your thoughts on that. My view is we're nowhere close to being done here. And I've been saying this since it started. I mean, when he launched the attacks, he said Trump said that it was going to take four weeks. I think he then pushed it to maximum five weeks.
50:48As soon as this began, the first thing I did is I went back and I found that Donald Rumsfeld quote, saying that the Iraq war would be eight weeks and pointed out a very simple fact, which was that it was eight years. And then we had the same thing with Afghanistan, where they said it would be a few months and it ended up being two decades. So my view from the beginning was this is going to be way longer and way more drawn out than anyone would expect. Why? Because wars are extremely difficult and we have a very, very strong substantive track record of saying it's going to be this amount of time, and then it ends up being way, way longer.
51:26So as of today, we're into week 14. So we're in month three now. And still, we have this assumption, oh, it's going to resolve in some way. Trump's going to kind of figure it out, or he's going to taco on the wall, which I personally think is a lot more difficult to taco on warfare versus tariffs. I just don't see it happening. So this goes back to expectations for what inflation is going to look like over the long term, I think we're going to stick around here for a long time. And I can expand on that. But I want to hear from you and your views on what this means and what it'll look like going forward over the next few months.
52:02And then we can get into inflation expectations longer term. You made a compelling argument. You kind of broke down, loosely speaking, that we're at 4 % and we'd be at 2 % if it wasn't for the war in Iran and these tariffs. That literally our inflation is up from what is a target inflation rate of 2 % to 4 % based on self-inflicted injury. And as it relates to Iran, there's two concepts. The first is when officers are evaluating subordinates in terms of decisions, and they spend a lot of time, you know, analyzing decisions that were made, what they do is they say, it's not the outcome that determines whether the officer made the right decision.
52:42They go back and say, at that moment, given the information available, did the officer make the right decision? And going back to, so first off in Iran, you at the very beginning said, this is a quagmire, it's a bad idea, this will go longer than anyone expects. I said, I think this could be a good idea. You were right, I was wrong. And going back, the idea of toppling a wobbling regime, neutering the Navy, further defenestrating their missile capabilities, further staunching the flow of capital and resources to their proxies, I thought there was a real opportunity. And had we, I believe, signed up some European allies, done a better job of analyzing the threats to our Gulf neighbors, securing the Straits of Hormuz before they had an opportunity to start wreaking havoc there, and quite frankly, going in, having very strict, narrow military objectives, and then leaving, I still hold to the fact that there was an argument for this.
53:42Now, the second concept is what I call, or Hillary Clinton teaches a class, and one of the concepts is the dominion of failure. And that is, when you're in an argument with someone and you make a point, and then they come back aggressively at you, it's human nature to double down. And then once you double down on your argument, you're sort of invested and you're in too deep. And you keep, and you can, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but you find yourself arguing a point and you're like, I don't even agree with what I'm saying, but it's too late, you've crossed the chasm, you've staked your reputation in that moment at dinner on whatever your point was, right?
54:17The problem is when you're supposed to be a leader, you're supposed to be able to have the maturity and be a fiduciary for other people's responsibility to basically not fall into the trap of the dominion of failure and go, you know what? I fucked up, I was wrong. And my intentions were good, but I was wrong. We need to change policy, A step back from the wrong direction is a step in the right direction. There is no getting around that anyone like myself that was supportive of military action in the beginning, based on how this has played out and the incredible incompetence and lack for coordination of our allies, lack of respect for briefing Congress, our inability to trust that Trump would understand anything about game theory and basically saying, I'm out of dodge, but you better do what I say as he's leaving, realizing that not only does he have no cards, but his cards are turned upside down and they can see our cards.
55:16This has been a fucking disaster. And anyone advocating for it has to, like myself, I remember having Freed Zakaria on, and Freed and I agreed that this was worth the risk. Looking back on how this has been executed, this has been a mistake of epic proportions. It has left us with literally no good options at this point. I understand the calls to withdraw immediately, take our licks. My attitude is at this point, it's quite frankly, it's hard to leave right now. And this is the quagmire because we're going to end up with less than nothing if we don't show a willingness to at least go some distance.
55:59At the same time, I understand the calls of like, let's just take our licks and get out. But just to summarize here, this has been an unmitigated disaster. And one of the unfortunate thing about our politics and our systems, and quite frankly, the public, is that the public appears to want leaders that will double down on something wrong rather than ever say, ever acknowledge, yeah, we think we made the right decision given the information we had at the time. It was the wrong decision and we're changing course. No politician ever gets rewarded for that type of maturity right now. And so what do we see?
56:36everyone just doubles down, doubles down, and goes further down into the dominion of failure. 100%. And this is what Trump's philosophy is all about. His slogan, or at least from reporting, and if you go watch the movie The Apprentice, you know this, his slogan is never admit defeat. The Roy Cohn method of communications. That was who we learned it from. And now it does appear that that philosophy is governing global geopolitics and as a result, the entire economy of America. and I think it's such an important and good point, this dominion of failure point, because, I mean, we should, I think it's such a respectable thing to change your mind and to decide and have the courage to say, I think actually there is a different path forward and I'm going to go back on my decision.
57:38I think that I was wrong. That is like a very, very difficult thing to say, especially today especially in a world of social media where everyone's tracking what everyone's saying and especially in a trump era of politics and it's something it's a lost art form that could literally be the erasure of trillions of dollars and could mean altering the life trajectory of millions of americans is our unwillingness to say specifically from the trump administration here to say I was wrong. He's never going to do it. And that is going to be such a problem. And again, to your point, this is why my belief is that this is going to go on a lot longer because he's never, I mean, he's unwilling to admit defeat on small issues.
58:30This is the most important, difficult issue in the world. Do we really believe that he's going to be okay with saying, actually, we're going to pull everyone out and we're going to call it a day and admit that we were wrong on this so that we didn't execute properly. I mean, maybe he'll try to do it and he'll lie about it and say, actually, it was a win for these reasons. And then the rest of us will know. But I mean, when you're dealing with troops on the ground, when you're dealing with missiles, when you're literally dealing with people's lives, it becomes very, very difficult to do that. And so my expectation, I don't think that he's going to make a deal with Iran or resolve it anytime soon, because I don't think that he is willing to reverse course.
59:11This is his entire principle. He never, ever wants to do this. So I think that the oil is going to remain blocked for the foreseeable future. I will note that when you look at the amount of oil that is blocked up right now, and this was research from the Institute of Energy Research, it comes out to around 6 % of global oil supply. So it's actually lower than you might expect. And the reason for that is, yes, the Middle East accounts for nearly a third of the global oil supply. But about a quarter of it takes alternative routes around the strait, which leaves around 20 % of it at risk, and a third of it currently is fully blocked.
59:46My expectation is that that amount will remain blocked for the foreseeable future. So my view is I don't think we're going to hit 8%, 9%, 10 % inflation like we did in 2022. But I do think that inflation is going to continue to rise for two reasons. One, I think these oil prices that we have already seen, they still need time to funnel through the rest of the economy. And two, I think as this goes on, you're going to see higher oil price expectations, which will lead to higher oil prices outright. And so I don't know if you remember, but my prediction earlier in the year was that we would hit 4.5 % inflation by the end of the year.
1:00:23A lot of people said that I had Trump derangement syndrome for saying that. Well, now we're at 4.2%. And I think it's, I'm pretty confident that that prediction is going to come true. I will now update that prediction, given what we're seeing today. I think we will hit probably at least 5 % inflation, but more importantly, I think we'll remain there for at least six months. I think that this is going to be extremely drawn out, extremely problematic. There are then all the other implications that come as a result of that. For example, rate hikes. I think rate hikes are inevitable. Markets seem to think it's a coin flip.
1:01:01I don't see any world in which you don't raise rates at this point, especially with the unemployment data, which came in better than expected, which means that the Fed has one target now, which is inflation. And two, landslide victory for the Democrats at the midterms. I just think this price thing is such a problem for so many Americans. They're so angry about it. They were already so angry about it. And I think that they understand that there is one person that is responsible for all of it. As you said, self-inflicted injuries. And that one person is Donald Trump. And that's going to be their message, their moment to send that message to Trump, to send that message to the Republican Party.
1:01:39And I do think it's going to be a landslide. What that will mean for markets, I'm not so sure. I haven't quite thought that far in the future. But there is a very, very scary sequence of events that I think you can pretty much game out. And we'll see. But that's where I stand on it at the moment. we'll be right back and for a recap of everything prof g media covered last week check out our new podcast of the week over on the prof g pod feed
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1:04:45We're back with Prof G Markets. The World Cup is finally here. Over the next six weeks, millions of fans will travel across North America to watch the world's most popular sporting event. But before a single trophy is lifted, one thing has already grabbed the headlines, and that is ticket prices. The cheapest seats for the final at MetLife Stadium are selling for more than$7 ,000 in several U.S. host cities. the cheapest tickets for the tournament's later rounds cost more than the average monthly mortgage payment. So, Scott, we got to just acknowledge how excited we are about the World Cup, of course.
1:05:25But this has been a really interesting issue here. You've said that FIFA is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world, which I 100 % agree with. I think many people would agree with that too. And now it's sort of on display what they're doing to get and make the most amount of money as possible. And some would say kind of grifting people who are attending the cup. I'll just give you some numbers here. FIFA expects to generate$3 billion in ticket revenue this year. That's compared to$900 million at the last World Cup. So they've increased their revenue by 230%. adjusted for inflation ticket prices are up roughly a thousand percent since the last time the u.s hosted the world cup in 1994 ticketing historically accounts for around 10 of world cup revenue this year it will account for 27 and the average resale ticket price today for the world cup is more than one thousand dollars there are many questions as to why prices are up so much um and one of the big reasons which i'd love to get into here is that FIFA, for the first time ever, is employing dynamic pricing.
1:06:33And what does that mean? They used to sell tickets at a fixed price, but now they are changing it, and they're basically algorithmically adjusting the price based on supply and demand dynamics. That's one thing. And then two, they're also launching their own resale platform where they sell all of the tickets, and then if you want to resell your ticket, you can go on FIFA's website, and you can resell your ticket, and FIFA will take a 15 % cut from the buyer and the seller on every sale. So some really interesting pricing strategies here. This dynamic pricing thing has also become a huge political issue.
1:07:09So much to get into here. I will start with your thoughts on FIFA's pricing strategy and what you make of it. If you look at FIFA as an organization, they have the right to price tickets and there's two sides of the trade. If you don't want to pay the money, then don't go to the World Cup. This will be my fourth World Cup. I was at Qatar, where tickets were a quarter the price that they are now. Before that, I was in Moscow, or Russia, Moscow and St. Petersburg, I don't remember. And I went to the 1994 World Cup in the U.S. And every time I go, or every World Cup, I take my boys, I take a ton of pictures, and it's a nice marker of time.
1:07:43I'm absolutely going to go this time. I make a very good living. And the tickets to the final in New York, where I was really excited about, and I want to go, I went to the final the last two times, where the cheaper ones, the$7 ,000 ones, as far as I know when I checked, are sold out. The good seats, like there's three categories, tier one, tier two, and tier three. Tier one seats to the final, granted, not everyone has a birthright nor should go to the final. They're$38 ,000. And just to give you a sense for that, when I last, the first time I went to the World Cup in 1994, an average ticket cost$58, and the most expensive ticket for the final was$475.
1:08:27So if you adjust it, you say, well, Scott, what about inflation? Okay, that's$131 average, and the most expensive ticket inflation adjusted in 1994 was$1 ,000,$1 ,069. Now it's$38 ,000. What it represents more than anything, it's distinctive whether you think FIFA is corrupt or not, fine, they get to do what they want in terms of dynamic pricing. It's that the 1%, who goes to the World Cup? Super fans and the 1%, because it is expensive. To go, you know, to fly to Monterey or Mexico or Vancouver to see a soccer game, that's a luxury item. And the reality is the 1%, and you can even argue the 10%, have garnered all of the gains.
1:09:08And that's why you've seen, no one likes to talk about it, but inflation at high-end hotels has gone crazy. Yeah, rich people inflation. If you have an asset that appeals to rich people and you can create a sense of scarcity, your pricing power is out of control because, one, the rich have exploded their wealth, right? Two, there's a change in zeitgeist where people realize rich people are generally older. They just got through COVID and they're like, I'm going to be dead soon. Why wouldn't I pay$38 ,000 to go to the World Cup? I'm going to be dead soon and I have money. Why wouldn't I? So you have this kind of YOLO versus massive demand from people, from the rich who have a lot more money.
1:09:52And then you have FIFA, who's made the following strategic choice, and they get to make this choice. Traditionally, they have priced their tickets below the market price because 80 to 90 percent of the revenues come from TV. and essentially the fans in the stadium were a feature of creating electricity that would come through the TV screen. And so they would save tickets in the less aspirational places for all the Croatians that actually got on a fucking plane and came to Qatar because seeing those crazy Croatians in the semifinals of the World Cup, I can't tell you how much electricity they brought to the game.
1:10:34And that did come through on the TV. So what they've decided to say, because here's the bottom line, anyone buying those$38 ,000 tickets, they're not going to paint their faces. They're just not. They're going to be like Trump at the Knicks game. They're going to fall asleep halfway through and then they're going to leave in the third quarter. They're going to be wearing suits and sucking down Pimms cups and saying, what an interesting game. The atmosphere is awesome. And like, who is this Ronald O character? I mean, these are not fans. These are people who get invited by corporations, right? Yes.
1:11:07And so you're substituting what FIFA's done is they've made a choice. We're going to go out to the efficient frontier. We're going to take every dollar off the table, and we're going to sacrifice vibe. Easy for me to say, but I don't think that's what a nonprofit should be doing and what is kind of the beautiful game. I think they should be getting – I mean, so for example, rock bands do a really good job of this. What they do is they say, if you sign up to be a super fan – so I think I'm an official fan of Empire of the Sun. And they go out initially to Empire of the Sun fans and say, we've reserved a certain number of tickets for you because they want hardcore fans in the audience for the vibe.
1:11:44So this is, anyways, a long-winded way of saying trade. FIFA has made a strategic decision to trade off vibe that used to come through the TV where they get most of the revenues to maximize ticket revenue. I hope they get stuck with a lot of tickets. I know that's a terrible thing to say, but similar to F1 in Vegas, where they vastly overestimated demand and sold 40 % of capacity, I'd kind of like to see them eat crow a little bit here. I think they'll just drop the prices and probably sell out. Well, here's the thing. They've already sold out on the first round. They've sold all of their tickets.
1:12:17I mean, there was the headline that you might have seen that there are almost 180 ,000 tickets that are still yet to be sold, which, by the way, is true. But they've yet to be resold. What we've seen happen is that FIFA crushed it in terms of navigating supply and demand dynamics. And some people are saying they artificially sort of misconstrued what the demand would look like. They sold all of those tickets. And now there are 180 ,000 tickets that other people who have already bought those original tickets are trying to now resale. And so the resale price has fallen 20 % over the past month. But the most important point here is that that doesn't matter for FIFA very much because they already sold the ticket.
1:12:59Now what's going to happen is because they have their resale portal, they're going to sell it twice. And they're going to take the 15 % cut of whatever that now discounted ticket price is. But FIFA is going to be fine from this perspective. So in terms of how they've navigated extracting the most amount of profits possible from this system, they've really done a good job here. They have crushed it for their bottom line. The question now is, which parts of this were legal? Which parts of this do we think should be illegal if they're not currently illegal? And now we're seeing a lot of investigations into FIFA.
1:13:36So there were 69 Congress members that signed a letter to Gianni Infantino, who's the president of FIFA, and they were criticizing his pricing strategy. They said that it was, quote, the most financially exclusionary and inaccessible World Cup to date. That doesn't really hold that much water. So they're just complaining so that they can kind of impress their constituents. But we have seen attorneys general in New York and in New Jersey and in Texas who are opening investigations into FIFA's pricing strategy. Texas is investigating whether they violated the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act.
1:14:09And the concerns that they cite are opaque pricing, artificial scarcity, and dynamic pricing that quietly raises rates. All of that, to me, sounds super valid. It sounds like that is exactly the kind of strategy that they... It's also what the airlines do. That's the thing. And Infantino said, well, if this is the problem with me, then this is a problem across the rest of America. And so this is why I think this is a really important story here, because this dynamic pricing thing is becoming a huge political issue now, not just in the world of sports, but across everything. grocery stores is now the big concern because a lot of these grocery stores like Target and Walmart and Whole Foods, they're all experimenting with these digital price labels, which allows them to adjust the price instantaneously.
1:14:57And they're now employing that strategy. And all of these state legislatures across the U.S. are now thinking, do we need to fundamentally rethink the way that we regulate dynamic and instantaneous pricing? Because with AI, with algorithms, you can essentially just jack up the prices, even based on your personal consumer data. I mean, you could essentially realize that there's a rich person who walked into the store. Let's change the price because we know that they will be down to pay more. Really interesting regulatory questions here emerging. And it's almost as if the World Cup is kind of the case study for this larger economic debate.
1:15:36I'm convinced a grocery store could dynamically raise the price of a box of tampons to 40 bucks if it's a dude buying them. Because it's like, yeah, that's fine. Put it in the bag. I'm on out. Go ahead. Go ahead. But what you're talking about is most service contractors walk into a home. If it's a nice home, I mean, not that they shouldn't do this. What do you think their price estimate is when they walk into a multimillion dollar home to hang curtains or do landscaping? There's dynamic pricing everywhere. The story that's been underreported, I like to talk a lot about brand management. When I went to the World Cup in Russia, first off, you're supposed to get a visa to go to Russia.
1:16:15Even back then, we had very tense relationships with Russia. And you know what they said? They said, take a picture of you with your ticket. That's your visa. Take a picture with you next to your ticket, and we send you a visa. And I'm telling you, they were, I don't know if they threatened to imprison people or not, or they're just a very friendly people. You could not go 50 feet without someone saying, Welcome to St. Petersburg. Where are you from? And it was such a great, and they handled it so well. And it was such a great event. The nation of Qatar, I'm not a big fan of Qatar. $14 billion in international funding to U.S.
1:16:50universities. Four have come from Qatar. I think it's a very important question. What do they want in exchange? I had an amazing time in Doha, And it couldn't have been better produced, better managed. And I have warm feelings or less cold feelings towards Qatar. We are harassing incredibly well-respected football officials from Somali and turning them back to Istanbul. We are pulling bullshit on Iranian managers and not granting them visas. I mean, we are acting like just such assholes. While the world's eyes are on us and people, again, this administration fails to realize soft power is the real power here, how people feel about you.
1:17:42And I think a lot of people are just saying, fuck it. Do I really want to go to a nation that does people? When I went to Russia, people said, aren't you worried? Isn't it dangerous? I have never felt safer. You could just tell word came down. Treat tourists like they're, you know, treat them really well. And I imagine a guitar, if you've ever fucked with a tourist, you might not be heard from again. And instead, in the U.S., we've decided, oh, no, let's start harassing people at the border, including really esteemed football officials. People, you know, on teams and coaches and players from nations where we are at, not war, at military action, whatever you want to call it.
1:18:25these moves, 98 % of people in the world are never going to come to America. 90 % of them are never going to be an American. So their decision to send their kids to a school here to invest in U.S. stocks, to maybe alert the embassy about a terrorist cell they've heard is being formed here that has plans to harm us or our troops, all of those things come down to How do people feel about the American brand? And it used to be the strongest brand in the world. Yeah, they're obnoxious. Yeah, they're aggressive. But their heart's in the right place. And we are losing. Big butt there. But we are losing that goodwill through just.
1:19:08Anyways, I'm beside myself and saving$38 ,000. And by the way, it's reflected in prices. If you look at the airfare prices, which have obviously gone way up in combination with gas prices and also the World Cup, the prices that are exploding aren't the transatlantic prices to the host cities. The prices that are exploding are the domestic flights between different host cities. That's interesting. So what we're seeing there is it's the Americans are going to be showing up. And it might be that we see a lot less of the foreigners showing up for many of the reasons that you point out. So just one final point, just thinking about the economic impacts of this World Cup.
1:19:49And I think it's going to be enormous. Like we saw that in the recent jobs report that leisure and hospitality services exploded and really carried that number. A lot of people think it's because of the World Cup and all the jobs that it might create. But then there are also the costs. I mentioned the airfare prices, also the hotel prices in the host cities that have really, really skyrocketed up 80 % year over year in 13 of those locations. But then also really interesting transportation costs, specifically public transportation costs. So a New Jersey transit ticket from Penn Station to MetLife, it usually costs about$13 for the World Cup.
1:20:26They hiked it up to$150. They got a lot of pushback and they reduced it back down to around 100. But this has become a real problem for a lot of people. We're seeing it in a lot of cities. And a lot of people are now thinking and talking about, genuinely, about walking to the stadium as opposed to taking public transportation. And this was a clip that we saw on our social media feeds. This was a guy who was talking about this strategy. Let's play this clip and get your reaction. Is it possible to just walk from New York City to MetLife Stadium in New Jersey? I'm going to find out. So I went on Google Maps and I found a route that was 11 miles long and would only take four and a half hours to walk.
1:21:04But it was all on sidewalks. So I grabbed a pair of shoes that turns out had no art support and headed off across the George Washington Bridge, which is the only way to get from Manhattan into New Jersey. This is the only walkable bridge across the Hackensack River. And given that you can't park at MetLife Stadium and the shuttle bus is going to be$80 round trip, I think a lot of fans are going to try to make this slog. So affordability is now such a problem that we're going to walk along the highway to get to MetLife from New York City to MetLife Stadium. What do you make of this, Scott? When my dad got divorced for the third or fourth time, he was living alone in Ocala, Florida on a mattress.
1:21:43And he got half the furniture in the divorce. And he had a little one bedroom and there was furniture everywhere. Like he couldn't move around. Like there was furniture stacked on furniture. And he was using as a blanket my NFL sleeping bag from when I was eight years old. and I hadn't seen him in a while. I was excited to see him and he's like, let's go grab a few drinks.
1:22:12He's like, we're going to be responsible. We don't want to drink and drive. We're going to walk. I'm like, we're walking? I'm like, let's just take a cab, dad. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. We walked three miles to the local Red Onion to drink with some of the most unfortunate people and then walk home to where my dad went to sleep under my NFL sleeping bag from when I was eight. And I literally thought to myself, God, I just, I'm so impressed. He's like not really depressed right now. And I remember thinking, you know, I was like 22, 23 at the time. I remember thinking, what's, I need to think about this.
1:22:56What series of bad decisions led my father to walking three miles from the Red Onion after two for one night back to his apartment that was jammed. It was jammed full of furniture. He wasn't willing to give up in the divorce. Oh, God. I mean, I mean. It is truly insane. Things got better, though, when he decided to move in with three other guys who were all prison guards at the local Ocala Penitentiary. I'm like, you know when you realize your dad, your dad doesn't make great decisions all the time? Yeah, mile two on the way to the Red Onion. Do you have a question? Did you have a question? I'm like, hey, I don't know if we like maybe we shouldn't do it.
1:23:49Like, what do you kind of just go with it? No, I don't know. I should have. I didn't. I didn't see. Like, my dad was not. I could tell my dad was not doing well. I don't know if he. Fortunately, my dad was too self-absorbed and non-thoughtful to really recognize in a sober fashion the life he was leading. Like, he just, thank God he did not have Instagram.
1:24:15But I remember I was working in investment banking at Morgan Stanley and living a semi-fabulous life in New York for a 23-year-old. And I remember going to Ocala, Florida and thinking, Jesus Christ. Anyways, Ed, anyways, don't, study hard, don't do drugs, don't get divorced four times. Yeah, exactly. I think probably the final message is, don't walk to MetLife Stadium from New York City. I mean, if you're - Yeah, I don't think that's a good idea. Yeah, I'm not sure. Not sure that that is worth it. Okay, let's take a look at the week ahead, Scott. We will see the import price index and US retail sales for May.
1:24:54All eyes will be on Kevin Walsh for the Fed's next interest rate decision. It will be his first time delivering the address as Fed chair. Do you have any predictions? We are about to see the biggest manufactured scarcity, which will result in a non-price or a price disparity between price and value, the likes of which we have never seen. We are going to see the greatest transfer of wealth from consumers to an investment since crypto, and it's based on manufactured scarcity. And I believe what happened was the following. Musk said, you know what? I own 40 % of this company. If it goes up 20 % more based on non-natural demand by being put in the NASDAQ 100, that takes the value from$2.2 trillion to$2.4 trillion.
1:25:43That's an incremental$400 billion. I own 40%. I'm going to get$160 billion if I can get a waiver here. So wouldn't Musk be stupid not to call the president and say, hey, why wouldn't you let great American retail investors have access to one of the great American companies? Call your buddy Pahal. And by the way, if you can see your way clear to, I don't know, getting us in the NASDAQ 100, like unlike any other firm previously in history, I might take, say, one or two percent of my incremental gains from this gaming of the system and apply it towards midterm elections, which I'm allowed to do because of Citizens United.
1:26:18Wouldn't Musk be stupid not to put pressure or bribe the president to take his stock up 20 percent, resulting in an incremental$160 billion in wealth creation through the manufactured scarcity that is occurring right now, courtesy of a corrupt SEC and president? Where's the prediction? The prediction is Musk is going to spend more on the midterms than any individual has spent on any election. Got it. Okay, yeah. Yeah, I think that, yeah, it's an interesting prediction. Just to follow up on that, agreed on the artificial scarcity and the artificial demand. But I think what we're about to see is one of the largest selling events in market history over the next six months.
1:27:00I think everyone who got the allocation knows that this price is ridiculous for SpaceX. I think they need to figure out a way to sell as much of this stock as possible once they have taken their returns and gotten their pop. of whatever it might be. And so I think that SpaceX stock will be cut in half over the next six months. That's my first prediction. Second prediction, I said it before, I think inflation reaches 5%, and I think it is sustained around that level for at least six months as well. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our video editor is Jorge Carty.
1:27:40Our research team is Dan Shalon, Isabella Kinsel, Kristen O'Donoghue, and Mia Silverio. Jake McPherson is our social producer. Drew Burrows is our technical director. And Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to Prof. G Markets from Prof. G Media. If you liked what you heard, give us a follow and tune in tomorrow for a fresh take on the markets.
1:28:02Lifetimes
1:28:09You have me In kind reunion
1:28:20As the world turns
1:28:25And the dark flies
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From the publisher
Scott Galloway and Ed Elson dive into SpaceX’s highly anticipated IPO, exploring the company’s first hours on the public market, the role scarcity played in driving demand, and where the stock could be headed over the next six months. They then discuss the latest inflation data and whether renewed price pressures are likely to stick around. Finally, they examine FIFA’s World Cup ticket pricing strategy and the potential impact of rising costs on fans and the atmosphere inside the stadium.
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