More Than A Motto - Interview with Justin Robbins of Metric Sherpa

0:00Justin Robbins:So welcome to the next edition of the Punk CX podcast. With me today I have Justin Robbins who is the founder and principal analyst at Metric Sherpa Incorporated no less. Justin and I have known each other for a long time and he's going to write in a book which we're going to talk about today. But before we get into that I just want to say Justin welcome to the podcast. Great to see you again. And if you can give us a bit of a thumbnail sketch on Mr. Robbins.

0:26Adrian Swinscoe:Yeah, I love it. Adrian, thanks for having me. It is always good to get some time with you and appreciate you doing this as we get ready for this book to come into the world. If we have not met before, I've spent my entire career inside of customer experience operations. I started on the front line of service teams and worked my way into leadership, eventually spent time doing a fair bit of research on the space and have been an advisor to a number of companies around the world as well. Adrian, when I think about some of the things I've done over that time, it's meant rebuilding QA programs, leading training teams, advising SaaS companies as they build products, or helping global brands figure out how do we create a connected and cohesive experience for our customers no matter where they're at.

1:17Adrian Swinscoe:Across all of that, what's been interesting for me, Adrian, I don't know if you've ever had those moments where you take a look back of what's the common thread going through my career and the work that I do and the stuff that gets exciting. for me, I realized that I kept seeing the same issue play out at organization after organization. And it was very simply this leaders are really good at saying the right things. Leaders care deeply about their teams and the work that they're doing every single day. But the daily work that every single person steps into is teaching something contrary to what's being said and promote it.

1:52Adrian Swinscoe:And that gap has really been, I think the tension that I've been living in, especially as of late.

1:59Justin Robbins:Awesome. Well, thank you for that kind of like, you know, that context. I think you're absolutely going to like right now. But as I said that, and as you said, you're just about to birth a new book. And I know how kind of hard that can be. So congratulations on that. And it's called more than a motto, reignite your purpose, rediscover your joy at work. So I wanted to just give a bit of background on the book and I wonder if you'd tell me about it, how it came about, why you wrote it, and what was sort of the main thrust, the thrust of the book are?

2:30Adrian Swinscoe:Yeah, Adrian, I was, it's interesting, you, in the past few weeks, I've been taking a look back of where were some of the early ideas and some of the early outreach for this book, and it actually started about 2015, and for me, I think that was where I had a light bulb, where I was watching a lot of leaders that I was working with at the time try to inspire their way out of what I believed were structural problems, right? The system was working against, like, I'm going to do everything I can to get my team despite what might be playing out. And as a result, as I was interviewing now in the 10 plus years since then, thousands of frontline employees every single year.

3:05Adrian Swinscoe:You know, I was seeing all of these stories and anecdotes of engagement initiatives kind of missing what they were really going after. And I was also hearing stories of people who were burning out and that was the last thing that they wanted. These were people who like they wanted to be doing the work that they were. And yet something inside of them was was having this adverse reaction to it. So seeing all of that and really asking the question of like, if people feel it, people know it. Why haven't they done something about it? Or why do the things that exist out there not not enable them to navigate it successfully?

3:41Adrian Swinscoe:hopefully so so that was kind of sitting at me for years and honestly had probably a few occasions where I started to write this and I was like I don't know that this is the right thing at the right moment and so tried to take a pause and be really really intentional about what we were doing in terms of creating the book you know if I think about what is more than a motto about Adrienne it's really three things at first it's really about this how does work lose meaning when our language loses credibility with our people. That's the first bit. The second is that when I look at people who are showing up every day, the problem is not them feeling a lack of purpose.

4:21Adrian Swinscoe:The challenge actually is the way that work happens. It doesn't reinforce and enable purpose to actually be lived out. And then the third bit is my belief that the most important role that leaders have is to design intentional rhythm inside of the workday and not spend all of their time trying to run a motivational campaign. That's probably the core three there.

4:47Justin Robbins:I mean, I think the broad theme, I mean, I know you mentioned rhythm and we'll come back to that. The broad theme I think resonates with me because I remember thinking about the reasons that I stepped into this sort of space in terms of doing the research and the advocacy and just trying to figure out the clues. And one of the things that always struck me was that having built things that had the customer and employee value at their heart, as it were, it always struck me and frustrated me how often organizations get in the way of their people doing a good job and and i just think it's it we're talking like the same kind of thing and like i mean i'm like 18 years kind of like kind of on from there and i'm a bit like still the same and we're still looking for the same kind of clues and so but i also wanted to ask you about so that the theme can resonate with me but i also wanted to ask you about and because i know your work is primarily in the service and experience space but the pick isn't specifically focused on those domains but i just wanted to wonder is it is this like a step to the side or is it you're going actually this is it's very relevant to those domains and it's a key part of actually solving kind of like some of the issues that were that we're facing yeah adrian this is um this this

6:09Adrian Swinscoe:has been i don't i don't even know that it's the existential crisis uh but but for me as i was thinking about this, you know, there's very much a tension of what is the, the public identity and the momentum that I've built and that I'm, I'm doing. And then at my core, what is the thing that I believe is going to undermine or enable all of that? And when I sat with this, you know, there were a couple of things that maybe they were comforting me. Maybe they're just things that I'm, I'm telling myself, this is, this is the way that I believe it is, but I know, and, and, you know, I believe that you'll agree.

6:45Adrian Swinscoe:And I've asked this question thousands of times and everybody acknowledges it. What happens with our customer experience is a downstream of what is, is happening with our employee experience. Let's kind of stop there. And then when we think about what does this really explore and, and to your point, is this relevant? If our internal systems are teaching people to rush, to protect themselves. Our customers inevitably feel that. And when I look at CX leaders where I've spent most of my career, the people and the teams that I've been working with, they are living in this constant state of trade-offs.

7:25Adrian Swinscoe:They know the pressure of volume or executive demands. They're living in this world of escalations, of conflicting metrics. You know, it's in a lot of ways, it was a great test case on, is there a place for this? And then when I started to speak to people outside of customer experience realized, yeah, this is the case. I mean, Adrian, I have a message from somebody this week who's very senior level in a healthcare system that, you know, they were like, this is, this is, this is the tension I live in every day. sure and so this this was you know affirming for me i i think in some ways adrian it's it's squarely where i've always been but it's also addressing it in a way that's going to be universally relevant

8:06Justin Robbins:i think to a lot of people right okay i mean which is it was great but here's what i want to do to give people a flavor of the book and i i so i want to dig into a few things that that that stood out for me and one of the first things i wanted to dig into was this so the book mentions this thing called the leadership blind spot and gotta love a blind spot um so i wanted to ask you can you explain kind of what this blind spot is and how it affects organizations and their

8:35Adrian Swinscoe:performance yeah adrian there's a quote that i've loved for a really long time from maya angelo and it's people judge you by your actions not your intentions you may have a heart of gold but so does a hard boiled egg. I've used that quote for years. And I was always trying to figure out like, why is this? Why is why is this getting people to smile and nod? And the leadership blind spot that I look at is really this, this belief that our intention is translating within our team, and that it's reaching the fringes of our organization. We assume that that the clarity that we have on an idea or topic is traveling intact.

9:15Adrian Swinscoe:The reality is that it doesn't. And what's actually shaping behavior in our organizations is what our systems are reinforcing intentionally or not. I even think about one of my own experiences where when I was kind of early in my leadership career, I was talking a lot about my team about, Hey, make sure you spend the amount of time with the customer that takes to understand them, to get it right. Like do the interaction action with them justice. I also thought it was really, really important to give them a kind of fully transparent view on how we were managing the operation. Right. What I did as part of that is I put together kind of a single page scorecard of all the things that we looked at and whatnot.

10:00Adrian Swinscoe:And in the upper left-hand corner, the thing right beneath their name was their average handle time. Right. Now, mind you, Adrian, I never talked about average handle time as something that mattered. But what I learned is the proximity of that on the page, people felt it was of the utmost importance. And I saw their behavior act opposite to what my conversations with them were. And it was like, that was a simple thing that I caught. That is happening across so much of the work that we're doing at such a great scale today. That's what this is all about.

10:40Justin Robbins:I have to ask about the Maya Angelou quote. Did she add the heart of gold and the heart of wild egg bit? Yeah.

10:50Adrian Swinscoe:I've been attributing it incorrectly for over a decade if that was not the case.

10:55Justin Robbins:No, no. I mean, because I love it. I love the thing. I've never heard it before. i love kind of like my angelou and i just i love the kind of the heart of gold but sort of the hardball deck it's just it's classic it's brilliant um but uh i i it's a great kind of like kind of point and the thing i wanted also going to then ask about is this idea of you talk about the book stick talks about burnout it talks about burnout as a system outcome not a personal failure now specifically in the service sort of space burnout is is a big deal to give your in contact centers like attrition is you know is driven by a lot of time by you know by burnout and things but burnout across organizations is is happening whether you're in kind of marketing whether you're in data whether you're in leadership you know the overwhelm is is is crazy and so i thought that the statement burnout is the system outcome not a personal failure was just like it was like a it almost landed it went it landed on the table and i thought i'm gonna have to ask justin about that can i explain what you mean by kind of that please you know adrian this this is

12:04Adrian Swinscoe:one of those things that for me very personally i i felt and was really trying to understand like how do i how do i name it what's really happening here and and here's here was my experience and and as i talked to you know people that i i interviewed as part of this process here's what's what played out every single one of us can handle a high amount of activity burnout is not or at least it doesn't start as us being exhausted from having to do a lot of work what i actually played out and where burnout was the most pronounced was with high capacity high performers and what was actually driving burnout was their sustained compensation for something that was broken here you had people that they were shouldering on themselves absorbing whatever friction was happening in the process or with the customer or whatever gaps were playing out these were people who were actually trying to like they were protecting the performance of the organization and what what was alarming is when i would interview leaders in that group they were actually, they would classify those people as incredibly resilient.

13:20Adrian Swinscoe:And they would use the high capacity, high performance language. But that is over time, especially, which let's talk about the contact center environment is a environment that is operating out. It's out of constant compensation. And when that becomes permanent, that's what I mean by this design issue. It's not people with a lack of grit or tenacity. These are actually people who care deeply and they are trying to adjust for something that is degrading consistently over time. That's what's really causing this.

13:58Justin Robbins:So I think in kind of like almost imagery and sort of metaphors and things, if that's the right word. and it sort of strikes me is that there's you're describing a situation like you remember you see the strong man situations where you've got a person in the or a strong woman kind of you've got a person in the middle of a situation you've got two forces pulling them in opposite directions and they're just like kind of with boot strands kind of like wow they can holding things together and it feels like that is almost what we're talking about here is that they are just laboring to kind of keep things together even though they know that they shouldn't have to but actually it's just a system condition in many ways that they have to do that in order to smooth it because all these other things are causing the if you like to use your words the friction but there's a point i think that's the point of burnout where it's almost like you're spent you just almost like have to let go it's either here or here and then you end up stepping back and that might be because it's a self-preservation kind of thing or you're just physically and mentally and emotionally exhausted and that's kind of where you can like you know step out so it's so i guess that for me that explains the the whole it's not a personal kind of like kind of failure because actually holding those things together shouldn't really happen it's not their not their job yeah adrian

15:21Adrian Swinscoe:and this is what's what's what's i think most alarming to me about this is it's not even a matter of people just completely drop the weights. It's, it's actually not that pronounced. People are just doing exactly what's expected and not anymore. Or, you know, if we look back to research from the, uh, was the mid seventies on psychological absence, what, you know, I think has been recoined as quiet quitting or a number of other things. This is where we just get to this place where it's like why why should i be the only one who cares i'm that's that's ridiculous i'm not going to be that person anymore which is a like no nobody nobody wants that nobody wants that for themselves nobody wants that for others and so again this this for me was this moment of like what are we doing to ourselves this is absolutely ridiculous and and we shouldn't be okay with it

16:16Justin Robbins:Yeah, no, exactly. And oftentimes people are doing it in isolation, so they feel very alone in that. And so it's a really interesting point. but i want to come back i want to circle back to a a word that you used right at the beginning and it's about this idea of rhythm but you also said purpose but i want to kind of like center on the kind of the rhythm side of things because it's a kind of a key thread that runs through the book and i wanted to understand how purpose breaks without rhythm when you to help me understand because that feels like it's a real core idea of the book. Yeah.

17:03Adrian Swinscoe:I won't go into my musical background at depth here, Adrian, but I've been a percussionist since a very young age. And one of the things that I'm always looking for is what's the repeatable pattern, not just in the world around us, but in the work that we do. And as I was studying the problem, what I realized is that we were almost episodic or just kind of, you know, we parachute in when we feel like the team needs some motivation, needs some inspiration. And then we let things kind of take care of it. Rhythm is that repeatable pattern that actually enables our purpose to thrive. This is when we are under pressure or when circumstances changes, we automatically default to our muscle memory, to what is already repeating or has been reinforced in our work.

18:00Adrian Swinscoe:That is what we do without even thinking we switch into that mode. And what this is about is how do we intentionally engineer that repeatable pattern of work so that when we do, because we're going to have to make changes, we're going to have to make compromises. There are going to be tradeoffs that need to occur. Rather than it being a circumstantial or kind of unintended reflex, we have made, as one of my mentors said to me once, an intentional pre-decision about what we do in those moments. That's what rhythm is about. If we don't have that, to your question of why does purpose break without rhythm?

18:38Adrian Swinscoe:Because it's counting on you to come in, Adrian, and have some heroic or inspiring or high-touch moment to sustain us through whatever pressure we're under. And that, for you as a leader, is now just creating additional tension and pressure that's also not sustainable. Yeah.

18:56Justin Robbins:And so it reminds me of that. Somebody told me once years and years ago that particularly when we think about emergency services, the reason why we don't talk about them as being in the US, you talk about it being first responders. We don't talk about them being first reactors, as it were, because there's a difference between reacting and responding. and responding is because you've got that you've trained for it you prepared for it you're equipped can look for this idea because if when you react in the moment then sometimes things go wrong because actually it's not only kind of thought out and and you know if you had a team of 10 people and they're all reacting then he could get like this random kind of like outcome but if you have 10 people that are in that sort of they're in the zone and they've all understand what they're doing and why they're doing it and they're responding to your point around being like in a band and it's all in concert then you get better and more intentional sort of outcomes yeah that's and

19:54Adrian Swinscoe:you and you know what you're moving toward adrian i've given the example recently to to people when i asked them to hey talk to me about what this whatever is means to you a great experience how will your people know it when you see it that's that's one of the big questions that i like to ask. And I equate it to this. If you and I, Adrian, we're together in person right now. And I said, Hey, Adrian, our, our mission is to go West. I'm based in North Carolina. Say that's where we start. And we go West. Adrian, maybe you end up in San Diego. I go West and I end up in Seattle, Washington. That is very different direction than saying, Hey, Adrian, you and I, we're going to union square and San Francisco.

20:33Adrian Swinscoe:We understand what we're moving toward and the decisions we make inform that that to me i think becomes a big part of this as well of it's not just about the repeatable pattern but that clarity and and that focus on where we're going absolutely

20:46Justin Robbins:so so i just want to double down on the kind of the rhythm part of it because rhythm is not just a thing that they're an abstract concept it's it because in the book there's an acronym for a model gotta love a bit of framework to kind of like to break things down so can you briefly can like walk us through it in terms of like what the rhythm kind of model stands it stands for yeah

21:08Adrian Swinscoe:adrian at its core this is about rewiring the way that we work and i know that that is not going to come quickly and it is not going to come easily so rhythm is really meant to be the kind of the operating system by which we design and deliver work and enable purpose to thrive okay it begins with that thing i mentioned first in terms of resolving what matters and that's really about clarity. It's enabling your people to know what wins when priorities collide. That's what starts there. H is about holding the line. This for me is intentionality. There were a number of leaders that did this really well, and they talked about how making sure that standards survive inconvenience.

21:49Adrian Swinscoe:And so making sure that, again, what we do is very purposeful and we know what is we will not compromise on. Okay. Why is all about belonging. You belong here. And how do we create connection? Adrian, you gave that example of the person who's overcompensating and it's often in isolation. One of the things that we reinforce is how contribution must be visible. And that's not about requiring sacrifice, but how do we make sure that the work that people are doing is acknowledged and owned. Tempo. T is about tempo. and this is part of our recovery as well, making sure that energy is not just being exerted, but is actually being built while we're inside of the work.

22:30Adrian Swinscoe:We can't expect people to cover in their time off. There has to be something inside of the workday to enable that to happen. Those four are the core of how this actually operates. And then from there, H is about here the system. And this is really the measurements that we look to to make sure that we are being predictive in what we're looking at and how we're watching for strain before performance is actually slipping. And then the final M, Adrian, is about making it repeat. That's that cadence. It's that rhythm that doesn't just rely on memory, but we know time after time, this is exactly how we lock in and move forward.

23:09Justin Robbins:And I think that's the thing is that you talk about the uh the last one being about cadence it's like it's about building habits and behaviors like a individual and a team in a department and an organizational kind of like level because but and as you say correct i said earlier but this stuff doesn't happen overnight it's not it's not like a set and and forget type of approach this is something you have to kind of lean into and you have to you know and it's going to be hard work because unlearning things and then learning new things is is is hard work so you always got to commit to the to to the process and the journey

23:47Adrian Swinscoe:as well yeah and adrian for me what is what is rhythm really about it's it's we are really good as organizations of having a purpose statement or vision and values and unfortunately a lot of it just ends as being aspirational this is really how do we take those things that we say matter to us and put operating discipline behind them. That's what becomes incredibly freeing with all of this is that structure to make this come to life. Perfect.

24:19Justin Robbins:Now, so Justin, I hope that my handful of questions has given people like a bit of a flavor of kind of what the book is about. And I would encourage people to go and grab a copy when it comes out on the 5th of March. But I wanted to also just kind of like say, you know before i kind of we start to wrap up and i see some quick fire questions that questions is anything else that that you'd like to add or highlight that we missed out any sort of big themes in the books the book that that you want to kind of point out that i might have kind

24:52Adrian Swinscoe:of like missed i think this is for leaders but it's also for people who feel like they've they've experienced this this disengagement themselves what i what i can say with absolute certainty is that the majority of people who are disengaged, it is not because that they have stopped caring about the work that they do. This disengagement has become, they feel like if they care, it is unpredictable or expensive to them. And the biggest thing to recognize in this moment is that there's so much incredible potential and care inside of our organization to help us be successful. we just can't be unintentional in in eroding it there's enough working against us you know hopefully this can be one thing that we do for ourselves that enables us to work for our people

25:44Justin Robbins:not against them yeah and i do i actually do think that the um for me i'd be interested to get your kind of take on this i actually start i actually think if when you when you think about leaders in their in their positions i think it starts with the way we think about things and how we describe things because there's like like going back to that that quote the Maya Angelou kind of quote about the intentions and actions and things um but I think it's a lot something to do with the words that we use to describe kind of people and how we think about kind of people and it all starts there sometimes we need to start to really think about okay what are the assumptions that we're making about kind of people how are we thinking about them how do we describe them and if you don't scrutinize that then you're not really going to get under the kind of the under the skin of the whole thing and then start thinking about how do I actually rebuild from there?