The State of Customer Engagement - Interview with Chris Koehler of Twilio

0:00So, welcome to the next edition of the PunkCX Podcast, with me today, I have Chris Koler, who is the chief marketing marketing marketing marketing marketing competition. And previously to Twilio, he was the CMO of Box, Inc. apparently. And prior to Box, Chris spent more than 25 years, or has spent more than 25 years, leading marketing, customer success, solution consulting, demand generation, and enablement for teams at Adobe Systems, ETH Trade Financials, SunTrust Bank, and Clartas. So, Chris, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? I'm great. Thank you for having me. you're very welcome now i do that bit of an intro i've been doing that of kind of late but i wanted to also kind of ask kind of people anything i missed out that you wanted to add well it's interesting like i am a marketer but i've probably spent the majority of my career not in marketing which is which is an interesting fun fact and um but most of it has been working with marketers versus being a practitioner myself and uh you know there were many years where I wasn't in the craft, but helping define the craft and working with marketers.

1:13And probably about seven or eight years ago, I got back into the game as a practitioner and haven't looked back since. Awesome. Now, there's a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about on the podcast. And the first thing I wanted to get your view on is Toyo's state of customer engagement report that you recently published. And I wanted to give me the, actually to give me the sort of the big headlines or the key standout findings from the report. Yeah. And we've done this for several years. And I think there's a couple of things that are interesting this year. One is there's still this brand consumer disconnect.

1:54And what I mean is, I think 96, the data suggests 96 % of companies globally say AI is improving, right? customer facing operations, sales, marketing, personalization, and they are seeing a revenue increase around the personalization efforts, right? 75 % globally say that I think it's 71 % in EMEA, but consumers, like 45 % of them still feel like brands don't understand them. So again, there's a disconnect in, and we've seen this year every year where, you know, the brands think they're doing an incredible job of understanding their customers and driving personalization. But if you ask the customer, they're like, not really.

2:33So I think there's a huge opportunity for us as part of that. I think that's the first one. We are starting to see this notion of AI powered, like personalization, really start to have some revenue outcomes, which is great, right? 56 % of brands globally say they're now using AI to tailor their experiences. It's about the same in the rest of EMEA. And that means personalizing content, recommendations, to real-time, to sport, to dynamic offers. So there's goodness that there's some value coming out of all the investments and efforts we're putting around AI. But I think the third piece is trust is, I think it's rising, the data suggests, but it's still very fragile.

3:16And so 90 % of consumers globally trust at least some brands that they work with, which is great, some brands. but only 15 absolutely and 50 % absolutely trust them with their data so you know what does that lead to well 84 % want control over how they're using in the personalization settings and then the other interesting finding is 54 % said they want to know if they're talking to AI right or human which is which is really interesting because it's only about half really want to know that I I think that's an interesting one over time, where eventually, I think the blending of human and AI and knowing the difference, as long as it's providing the right utility, consumers may not care.

3:59So it's pretty interesting. And then if you take a cut at EMEA specifically, it's a little less trust. 87 % of consumers trust at least some of the brands they do business with, with only about 12 % saying they have a high level of trust with any specific brand. Okay. I mean, so I wanted to, if I can, dig into some of those things that you were talking about. I mean, because you said that 56 % of brands state that they're now using AI to tailor experiences, and 75 % of them report they're saying that it's driving increased customer spend as a result. so the first of all the first thing i wanted to kind of better understand is do you have some insight into what exactly are they doing or using ai for in terms of to tailor their experiences and then also a bonus question this is sort of running kind of like slightly counter to other research findings which people are going hmm implementing ai not necessarily seeing the roi from various sources.

5:02I agree. I think there's a lot of conflicting information around the value and utility of AI and our brands getting the value out of it. I think to be fair, we're still very early in our journeys around leveraging AI. I think there's a lot of excitement around what the possibilities are. It's really very different by industry. I'm lucky enough to talk to customers all over the globe across many different industries. And so there's a wide variety of how we're using this. And I think it's pretty exciting. Like financial services, they're using AI-powered assistance to help you proactively manage and invest your money.

5:39Where retail has been doing this for a long time around product recommendations, right? How do I create better recommendations of cross-sell upsell opportunities? You know, they've been doing that for a long time, but I think the algorithms are getting better and better and more personalized. So you're creating, you know, better recommendations. Travel and hospitality, I mean, virtual concierge with bookings and recommendations and upsell. Healthcare companies are creating a doctor in your pocket, right? Triaging symptoms, personalized follow-up as part of that. So I think with any general use technology like AI, I think the possibilities are sort of endless, right?

6:17And I think the big switch we're starting to see, and again, it's very early, is you're moving from this reactive. What is the customer doing? how do I react to that to a proactive motion where you're like anticipating their needs before they can even articulate it so I think that's where we're going to start to see the really big unlock and you're going to create these sort of magical moments for for consumers um that we just haven't been able to do today and I think it's important to to know as well when people talk about in this kind of context when people talking about kind of AI they're not just talking about generative kind of ai it's actually i think the the feeling because it's like it feels like people talk about ai and a lot of times generative ai and ai gets conflated and it's been kind of one and the same thing but actually i think what the the explosion in generative ai has done is just advance the whole use of artificial artificial intelligence enabled software with all these various techniques whether it's predictive or kind of blah blah blah kind of like generative in order to drive these better things.

7:20I think in the most advanced use cases or the advanced cases in terms of the most mature organizations, they're being much more sophisticated, it feels like, in terms of picking the right tools for the right kind of use cases. Yeah. I mean, I think like I'll give you an example as a marketer and, you know, we've been talking about using sort of machine learning predictive, you know, for a long time where you say, okay, great, help me understand cohorts or personalization around this. So you could, you could figure out what was the right message, whatever, but you couldn't create the content fast enough because you've had a content gap.

7:54And I think now with LLMs and the advancements that are around content creation with AI are now unlocking that possibility of using the machine learning and predictive piece of it tied in with the content production. And as part of that is like, all of a sudden, now you've had this explosion and this major unlock around that. So I think those are, you know, you're seeing that more and more that you can actually scale much more than you could before because you always had some sort of bottleneck in the production system. Yeah, because I think that's one of the things I'm also seeing is that when we talk about some people who are trying and not necessarily having that much success, and I've talked about it a little bit, I've written a little bit about it before, and I talked about this idea that it's like when everything, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail type thing and people are always like going oh you're into the vayette whack-a-mole yeah and it's actually no it my kind of thinking has always been like well think about the problem that you want to solve or envision spend a bit of time envisioning what are the experiences that you want to deliver and then work backwards from there and think about the tools that you need to the tools and the data that you need in order to deliver that rather than the other way around going here's a tool or a hammer and go what can i make with it yeah i think that's a great example like one of the things that we we took a look at um and i'm giving an example of how we're leveraging it um where we and again a lot of marketers as a as a whole have have capacity constraints around how they can engage with let's say you know leads or opportunities that come through on your website and so we have a whole stream of we've got millions of developers people basically raising their hand said, Hey, I need more information about X, right?

9:39Well, as marketers, we have to triage that. And we have to say, okay, well, how do I score this? And what are the biggest opportunities? How do I put other people into nurture campaigns? That's an old paradigm as part of that. Whereas now we've built a internal agent that handles 90 plus percent of those inquiries, right? Today, we're doing it through email, but it's a back and forth conversation. We have a human in a loop that still, you know, continues to look at the answer and response as part of that. But we got into a world where we can now there's unlimited capacity because I'm not constrained on, you know, lead scoring this.

10:13So only certain, you know, we can only follow up with some. So I agree with you. Like we looked at what's the big problem we have, capacity constraints of answering questions from customers of inbound. How do we work through and leverage AI and continue to get better, right? and then put our people on those opportunities that we think we should engage from a human perspective. So it's really exciting and we're seeing incredible results around it. Awesome. And so I wanted to circle back into some of the personalized stuff around the data use. For the longest time, and I think that back in the day, I think it was Forrester that coined this term, the personalization paradox.

10:55The idea they're saying, well, brands want to deliver over-personalized experiences. Customers want that too, but at the same time, about three quarters of customers say that they're worried about their data use and security and privacy and all these different sort of things. I wondered if your research has said anything about some of these concerns and what brands need to do in order to build that sort of trust and yeah that sort of yeah that trust the trust factor in in in customers yeah i mean i i think about like i've been in this space for a very long time um well we've been talking about personalization for a very long time right um and i think as a especially as a marketer i think there's a fine line between having incredibly powerful personalization to versus incredibly creepy and i just add that at the same time that other kind of research came out there was another piece of research that came out and i think it's from back there was in moment or something before they got acquired and they said their research said um yeah customers marketers want to do this but then 60 of marketeers admitted that some of the campaigns that they sent out they would have assessed as being borderline or downright creepy creepy yeah so they were they were doing things to customers that they would have felt they would have unnerved themselves and it's like well i mean and again i think we have to sometimes use common sense around this and i think like if data is utilized in the right way it can create this almost magical experience right and consumers and customers will want and embrace that but i think used poorly or out of context there's almost like immediate rejection you know in my belief i think i think consumers as we get better at understanding the context and the consumer and it provides more utility where you're like okay this personalization actually helps with how i'm thinking about you're anticipating my needs wow this is it's not creepy this is actually very helpful for me you know as i as i work through i think i think the more utility we can provide my sense is over time customers will get more comfortable with leveraging that data but again it has to be you have to be consistent you can't go, you can't cross the line.

13:19As soon as you do that and lose trust, then, you know, everything's out the door. But I do think there's like, I predict in this, you know, we start to think about the next four or five, six years, you know, at some point we're going to start, like, I can imagine a world where he's like biometric data to drive personalization. You just start to think about creepy, but like it will get there. We've got all these smart devices and everything else, but what happens when your device knows you're stressed or hungry or happy, right? And then And they deliver real-time messaging as part of this, right?

13:50I don't know. Maybe that's a step too far, but I think that's ultimately where it's headed. You think about ultimate personalization. It's not about the traits or your buyer behavior. It's literally about your emotions and your biometric data. Like, that's probably where we're headed at some point in the near future. That's a whole other level of data privacy and components around that. That's a whole ethical planet. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, but I think that's like in five years from now, like maybe, you know, you're going to start to see that. Why are we wearing all these smart devices that collect so much data around us?

14:27And, you know, as, as an industry, how do we ensure, right. That we, we are safe guardians of all of that. So it's, it's, it's going to be this constant tug, I think, you know, of where do we provide utility versus where do we cross the line? Yeah. I mean, and talking about data, I mean, the talk over the last kind of number of years has always been this move away from third-party data to kind of maybe kind of first-party data, and maybe even more into kind of zero-party data, maybe to handle some of these kind of concerns. We're not going to assume anything. We're going to ask you directly, as it were.

15:06um what are you seeing in terms of um brands sort of data strategies kind of like changing and things i mean is there is this this concerted move to the first party data and that's what people are increasing in reliant and they've weaned themselves off the third third party data yeah i mean i think for a long time like you know because we didn't have the signals like we you know we relied on third party data as part of that but ultimately at the end of the day if you really want to understand your customer, right? It needs to be first party, zero party data, right? I think ultimately at the end of the day, to some degree, we, you know, we, we leveraged, we leveraged data that made us, I don't know the right word to say, almost lazy, right?

15:47As marketers around that versus doing hard work to really understand as part of that. So I do think, as I talk to more and more of my peers and our customers, like people want to understand their customers at a much better level, right? And it's not just the static information around demographics, firmographics, purchase history. But it's now combining that with all the interaction data, web behavior, call center data, like in a world where AI, like AI driven experiences, I think context really, really matters. And I think, you know, a lot of the conversations I'm having with customers, they're trying to figure out how do I collect, merge, and then action all that information sort of seamlessly across all the channels, whether that's email or voice or messaging you know that's how you create a great experience so yes i think it is absolutely necessary that we start to get wean ourselves off if people are still relying heavily on third-party data and you have to have a data strategy because i think ultimately contextual data matters a lot in an ai driven experience world and you can talk about actually um that i think you mentioned that 84 % of customers state that they want control of their personalization settings.

17:03And that sort of speaks to the zero-party data side of things because actually controlling your settings is on one side of it, it's control for the customer, but also providing data in inverted commas for the brand. I mean, where are brands at, or where are you saying kind of brands at with being for providing that level of interactivity yeah i i think i think we're still um well it feels like it might be some way off yeah i think we're i think we're way off right i think you know i think there's um that there's again it probably depends globally right and and rather than a lot of i think marketers are still very much focused on what is the privacy you know in this country that I'm doing, then I've got to work backwards versus taking a lens of like, what does the consumer want?

18:00How do I provide that visibility and around that? But it's hard, right? It's like when you start to think about the end, you get back into away from personalization to this notion of individualization, where literally every interaction you have with an individual matters based on their preferences. And again, I think that's the next step of where we're headed, where I do think individuals will have more control around how you leverage this. And as brands, we're going to have to figure out how do we adhere to that? Not just because of the privacy concerns. Ultimately, it's for the customer concerns around how do I create great experience based on their preferences, not my preferences or what the privacy boards say we have to do.

18:45So I do think we've got a ways to go around this. And so I think I would encourage all of us to start thinking through put that customer lens on and say how do i create a better experience based on their preferences not what's best for me yeah i mean i do also think and i think this is this is played out in history as well there's possibly uh there there's going to be this irrational fear sort of like spike in the hidden in the minds of people so it's a bit like if you roll back in history um if you think about the uh the surge of feedback where companies going out and asking for their uh the customers for feedback and when that became this big kind of wave just before that happened before that tipping point there was a lot of people that got that were saying we can't ask our customers what they think they might all shout at us and you're like going yeah but do they keep buying for you like customers aren't stupid why would they keep buying from you they may actually kind of say some things that make sense and so we've come through that sort of thing and then there's the whole other thing around the subscription-based economy where people are like going oh we can't make it easy for people to cancel because they might all cancel cancel yeah and and again um i think those are sort of very inward focused strategies that you're, it's almost like leading out of fear versus doing what's right ultimately at the end of the day for the customer.

20:15And I think, you know, that's the, the companies that do that are the ones that are going to win longterm. Yeah. And I want to come also then circle back to this kind of thing around, you talked about again, about data and you talked about this idea of kind of collecting and merging some things that haven't had a data strategy. And we, and I want to sort of then overlay that with this kind of this perennial thing that people talk about was like, oh, silos and data and silos and things. And I mean, with all this talk about data, are you seeing the convergence of this marketing sales and service teams in terms of data sharing and collaboration and so on and so forth?

20:51And if so, who's driving that? And how are they driving it? And what are they doing to help with that sort of thing? because I'm pretty sure people will be advocating about it from service because they're like the largest, fastest growing real-time data set in any company really, but are probably not the ones with the most influence or the biggest budgets. I think there's a couple patterns that we see. And again, I think we've been, like you said, we've been talking about doing this for a very long time, but we still, and this is part of why so many brands struggle with the great customer experiences because we still ship our org structure around how we engage with customers.

21:37That's just the reality. I think we're seeing a couple of patterns. You may see a functional leader that basically steps up and says, okay, I'm a marketer. I'm seeing what sales is doing versus our CX organization over here. We're creating a terrible experience. I want to take a step back. Let's really figure out what is our data strategy across. I have a bunch of it. You have a bunch of it. Like, let's get together and figure that out. That's one, one pattern we see. Not, not super common, but you have to have a functional leader that basically steps out of their silo and saying, we got to do better.

22:10We're seeing, we're seeing CIOs, right? The office of CIOs starting to, you know, to pick their head up going, wait, if there's something horizontal across the organization that we have to stitch together and think through a customer experience, you know, CIOs, CTOs taking a step back saying, wait, I can play the role of the facilitator where I can bring the different departments together and figure out what's the architecture, how do we work through that, and ultimately put that customer lens on and say, here's how we might facilitate this. But by the way, sales, you've got data in your CRM, you've got data over here in the marketing stack, you've got data in all of your call data.

22:48So we're seeing more and more our customers take a step back and say, we probably need to share all of this because this is what I talked about before is the contextual data around that customer journey. The only way you can actually surface that up is if we all work together and share and think through that together. And I think what's happening is AI is starting to almost show where there are those disconnects around that. And so I'm seeing one of the things we're seeing is who's owning the corporate AI strategy in an organization. CIOs are now being tasked around that. We're seeing that quite a bit.

23:27And so they're like, oh, my gosh, well, if I have an AI strategy, where's all the data live? How do we stitch it together? How do we create that? So it's a forcing function now. So we're seeing more and more. And a lot of our customers are getting pretty excited about what might be possible. yeah no it's that was what the question i was going to ask was that is is the uh this kind of big ai wave is that being the forcing kind of function that that's that that's driving kind of this because like it's it me it feels like as you say is you've got data all over the place but if it's not all together then you're almost like you're you're sub-optimizing what they can what the software kind of might be able to do um and that just feels like a lose-lose across the you know across the piece well my my big fear is that you know as brands we're just going to create we're going to leverage ai to create even more fragmented experiences right so we're going to create more and more of these agents and bots and uh it's just going to replicate our existing org structure cx is going to have one that's totally disconnected from any of the sales you know activities or conversations are going on and then you're going to as a consumer going to be like wait you're giving you the same problem i've got today right you're not actually making this better you just have a you have a ai agent that is replicating the bad experience i had before so how do you share that data that makes it a magical experience versus what we're dealing with today well i think also the thing is that it seems to be that connecting all that kind of data and having everybody kind of piped into it or having it proactively notify when things can like show up so for example if you're a cmo and there's a series of campaigns kind of come up and it's kind of gone out and you've optimized it and done as you're really pleased with it but then things start showing up in the in the contact center or the the service the support area and you're like going and it might just be something left field that you've just not seen and you're like going it's like a fire alarm going off you're like wow and if you're not connected in that way because somebody was like oh we saw that and they sent off an email and you're like we'll get we'll see to it then it's like you can be sat in your house and everything else around you is kind of on fire because you're not kind of bad analogy but it's like you know you're not kind of connected in real time um and you don't get the insights around all things you need to make changes to your kind of your marketing campaign or your sales approach or your new product release or all these different sort of things and so there's benefits all over the place to do that and so So I think it's important.

25:58People need to kind of get out. Yeah, there's more data and more signals than ever, right? Are we as leaders in the business really paying attention to that and taking advantage of what our customers are telling us? And so the one thing I want to do, I want to move away from the report because I want to revisit something that you kind of said to me in a setup call for this podcast. and uh it's something it's a bit like a drum that i have banged from time to time and given the opportunity will continue to bang it uh you said that uh you think that executives need to get out of their ivory towers and i wanted to ask you to explain what you mean by that and what they should be doing instead um i i think there's a there's a very easy sort of uh manager managerial inertia we can get into where we become very inward facing running the business and um i you had mentioned at the intro where i've had many different roles like i've been in sales roles i run product roles and and marketing roles and there is nothing better i believe in understanding it doesn't matter which role you're in is talking to a customer around how their experience is with you as a, as a company, as a brand.

27:17And I think it's too easy to get locked down into, Hey, we've got, I'm super busy. I've got meetings. Like I, I can't spend the time, right. Getting out face to face with customers. And again, I think, you know, the advent of video and others make that easier where you can scale and you don't always have to get on a plane as part of that. But I do think, um, getting out in front, I spent a lot of time, I travel globally and I do want to spend time with customers, right? I want to understand how, how are we, how are we doing? What's the experience look like? Are we, are we hitting the mark around how we, how we're talking about our products?

27:53Who else should I be worried about? You know, those sorts of things. And, you know, and, and often ask, uh, what could we be doing better? Right. You know, help let me take that back right to you know to headquarters and and provide that feedback and i think it's it you have to be deliberate right because again your time can get sucked up very quickly with all of the in demands we have and if you don't carve out the time you don't do it i think you you miss a massive opportunity to really be customer focused yeah and i completely agree i remember writing something kind of uh i think it was last year and it was about you know I know that Twilio last year had a CEO change where Kuzema, Ship Chandler, went from the CFO to the CEO's chair.

28:39And the first thing I was told that he said was like, right, let's go find out what's going on. And then proceeded just to go, right, we're going to go and talk to customers, talk to customers, talk to customers, and just find out, find out, find out. and over the course of that year then that you know totally have posted like was 10 growth and i said well those things are probably not coincidental you know and they're they're probably it's probably not a causative thing but there is very correlative in terms of a change in kind of behavior but i also think that there's there's i always advocate to people to go and speak to customers because you make it just makes it real as it were you see things in the real I talk about this, you know, another mantra I have is these are three levels of leadership where I say that data informs us.

29:29And I say like stories move us. So you get that sort of contextual stories that can help you kind of understand it a bit more, add more onto it than data. But the experiences compel us. when you actually see things live and hear from people that you know directly themselves then that's where you really can move but the thing i also kind of think is that we should and i know it's hard for leaders because it's you know they've got you know they haven't got limited time they've got the same amount of time as everybody else but they just need to get better at managing it and saying no to things i think and to your point they need to be very deliberate about it and the the job is is hard but i say that it's not just about talking about customers it's actually talking to colleagues as well going back to the kind of point before around sales marketing and service and stuff you need to kind of like be building these links because that's what's going to foster the collaboration and the insight and to be able to create this unified data thing to drive those kind of better experiences and so whilst it's a big ask i think it becomes a necessary sort of uh facet of a modern leader's role i want 100 and i think you know there's a bunch of things like we're trying to do um i often describe it as like when we travel to different locations you know how do we get a twofer and a twofer is how do i spend as much time with customers but then also carving out the time to spend with employees right and and you know one of the things and i think i mentioned it last year when we chatted about what one of the things because Zama has done really well is he's willing to ask the question of what can we do better?

31:11And I think it's pretty interesting because I think as a lot of executives, we don't want to hear, we don't want to hear all the stuff that's like broken, right? Because we often get pulled into situations where it's escalated and you're like, oh my gosh, I got to, you know, you're right. We fell down. We, you know, we had some issue, like, you know, that's part of the role that we've got to go play. And I think when you get into situations where they're more organic and you've got happy customers, right? And it feels good. Like there's that feel good moment, but you may not get the details of like, yeah, there's probably something that we could be doing better.

31:42And one of the things he does that, you know, that I'm, I'm learning from, he'll say, okay, tell me one thing we could be doing better. Right. And customers are like, Whoa, okay, this is cool. Like the CEO of, you know, is asking me what I could do, you know, what we could do better. And you'll be surprised. Like there's always something. And then we take that back and we're like, Hey, actually, as I've talked to all these customers, I'm hearing this, like, there's a trend here that we probably need to go fix because I've heard this from, you know, four or five, six different customers over the last month as I've been out on the road.

32:13So I think that's, again, there's no filter. You know, that's, that's the other thing is you don't hear the filter as part of that. And then the same thing with employees, right? Go asking, giving them the opportunity, doing lots QA, what could we be doing better? What's, what's, you know, what's ultimately the pulse and i think it's just um having that open transparency and be willing to you know ask the questions um even if you don't fully want to you know hear the answers to it but they're probably right yeah i mean i would also say that kind of that the the some people might be listening to this and they'll think oh we can produce this we can put that in a survey and we can send it out to a thousand kind of like kind of people we get all this kind of massive amounts of kind of data and insight you're like going please don't do that right but there's going to be like with the bias of who responds to it, you know, what, what do they have a motivation around those things?

33:02And, you know, I think there's, there's always balance of quantitative versus qualitative data. Right. And I think, you know, they're, they're not a substitute for one or the other, but I think a lot of people focus on quantitative data and they don't get the qualitative. And then the other thing that, which you mentioned before is like the storytelling moves people when you go out into the field and you talk to customers and then we come back and we've got stories on our all hands that we tell all employees i was having this incredible conversation with a customer let me tell you like how our products and services are helping with x and be like wow i didn't even know that that's really cool like yeah i feel proud to work here and those sort of things so again that it helps us with the storytelling because we felt it directly as part of that absolutely and so so i know that you work with all sorts of different kind of of brands we talked about these different sort of things i mean do you have any examples of you know i i guess almost like champion brands they're like going they just get it and they're doing it and the um and if so kind of like you tell me about tell me about them tell me about some of the challenges that they face and kind of like what they've been doing and how they're kind of benefiting the the what's all outcomes of driving yeah i mean i i think i mean there's there's so many, you know, fun examples around the globe, you know, maybe this is timely because the Premier League just started and, you know, I'm excited, you know, I'm a big fan.

34:28And, you know, one of the fun ones we've been talking for a while is, you know, Chelsea and, you know, what's really interesting with them is they have 615 million fans globally, which is just incredible. But the majority of them aren't going to step foot in Sanford Bridge, right? And so how do you engage an audience and a fan base and create a great experience. So that's like a fun one that we're working with them, trying to work through. Yeah, we have the privilege of working, you know, what's pretty interesting is sort of ubiquitous technology now around OpenAI, right? With chat GPT. We had a fun launch last year, beginning of this year, just around 1-800-CHAT-GPT, right?

35:11And this is, you know, a phone number that we partnered with them, you know, with, So you can use it via voice or WhatsApp, right? How do you engage and test and learn and play with this new technology in a way that's fun, right? We have Kraken, which I think is Octopus Energy. It's like one of their subsidiary companies. They're trying to figure out how do they create this great energy efficient tech pioneer, right, on creating great customer experience. experience. So how do they leverage voice and email and text to engage and really create a great experience around energy? Again, we talked about it before, there's so many examples across every industry.

35:55How do you create a better customer experience through technology? And so there's so many fun examples that we're privileged to work with brands all over the world. Cool. So Chris, that sort of brings me to the end of the questions I had in mind. Anything else that you want to highlight or add that we've missed out before I ask you some quickfire questions to finish off? No, no. I mean, let's go with the quickfire. Now you got to put me on the edge of my seat here. All right. So I know we talk about a bunch of stuff, but I also like to ask people for their best advice or to boil everything down.