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Podcast Notes: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women - Episode 186: Kate Fall
Podcast Overview
- Title: Rachel Johnson's Difficult Women
- Description: A podcast focusing on women who embrace being "difficult" as a positive trait, highlighting their struggles and triumphs in achieving their goals.
- Host: Rachel Johnson
- Guest: Baroness Kate Fall, former Deputy Chief of Staff to Prime Minister David Cameron.
Episode Summary In this episode, Rachel Johnson interviews Baroness Kate Fall, an influential figure in British politics who served as the Deputy Chief of Staff to David Cameron. The conversation explores Kate's unique journey, the challenges of navigating power dynamics in politics, and her reflections on leadership and personal sacrifices made during her career.
Key Themes and Discussions
- Background and Early Life
- Kate's upbringing as the daughter of a diplomat shaped her worldview.
- Early exposure to music and a decision to pursue politics instead.
- Importance of familial values and discussions at the dining table during her childhood.
- Political Journey
- Kate's rise in politics, starting with roles in the Conservative Research Department and working for various leaders, including Michael Howard and David Cameron.
- Her decision to remain an advisor rather than pursue an MP role, feeling more suited to behind-the-scenes work.
- Life at Number 10
- Descriptions of her first day at Number 10 and the significance of her role as a gatekeeper.
- Key moments and memories from her time with David Cameron, including both triumphs and disappointments.
- Challenges faced during significant political events, such as the 2015 election and the Brexit referendum discussions.
- The Personal Side of Politics
- Emotional moments, including the tragic death of David Cameron's son Ivan, which profoundly affected the political environment.
- Discussion about maintaining a work-life balance, especially as a mother in a male-dominated space.
- Women in Politics
- Kate reflects on the unique challenges women face in politics, including the need for more female representation and participation in policy-making.
- Advocacy for young women to enter politics and take on both operational and policy roles.
- Reflections on Leadership
- Insights into David Cameron's leadership style, emphasizing his family-oriented approach and mental resilience.
- Discussion on the importance of maintaining healthy boundaries in high-pressure political environments.
- Future of the Conservative Party
- Kate expresses her hopes for the Conservative Party’s revival and the potential for electoral alliances.
- Acknowledgement of the changing political landscape and the need for parties to adapt to new voter sentiments.
Key Takeaways
- The Importance of Support Networks: Kate speaks to the value of camaraderie among political colleagues, particularly in addressing the unique challenges faced by women in politics.
- Navigating Power Dynamics: The discussion highlights the complexities of political loyalty and the necessity of being a strong advocate for one's viewpoints while also supporting collective goals.
- Women’s Representation in Politics: Kate emphasizes the need for women to take on more significant roles in policy-making, not just operations, to drive meaningful change in governance.
Concluding Remarks
- Kate Fall's insights provide a candid look into the interplay of personal and professional challenges faced in high-stakes political environments.
- The episode serves as an inspiring call for women to embrace their "difficult" nature as a strength in pursuing their ambitions.
Follow-Up
- Follow Rachel on Twitter: [@RachelSJohnson](https://twitter.com/RachelSJohnson)
- For advertising opportunities: Email dax@global.com
- Listen to the podcast: Available on Global Player and other podcast platforms.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:06Rachel Johnson:Well behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do.
0:20Rachel Johnson:Kate Fall was David Cameron's closest ally, help me, advisor, and in number 10, famously, his gatekeeper, the title of your memoir, Kate. She was created Baroness Fall of Ladbroke Grove in his dissolution honours list, a clue that she was a founding member of the so-called Notting Hill set of Tories. Kate, I read in your book, which I thoroughly enjoyed, that you could have been a musician. Why in the end did you turn to politics?
0:50Kate Fall:Well, that's a very good question, which I have thought a lot about in my life. I loved music. I actually had a musical upbringing. My father was in the Foreign Service and we lived in Moscow, we being my twin sister and I as children. And that was really what we did. We did music instruments and not much else. But in the end, I took a decision which was I was good, but I wasn't really good enough to be a top pro. And I always loved my subject. I love politics. I grew up as a diplomat all over the world. So that's why I'm afraid.
1:21Rachel Johnson:so you're the daughter of course of sir brian fall and his wife dama um who's canadian and american american so sorry hey i should know that as we were going to admit right from the beginning that we've known each other our entire lives exactly and there's a funny section about the johnson family that we may get to um in a bit you didn't say because i think you're typically modest and you do hide your light under a bushel a bit that he was ambassador in Moscow. I mean, what a childhood, you know, what a kind of child's eye view of the world. And how did that peripatetic diplomatic upbringing help you in your future life?
2:04Kate Fall:Well, I could not be more proud of my dad. And I'm super proud of their generation, your dad as well. I mean, these were people who really fought for their country. They won the Cold War, literally, my father did three posts in Moscow, the first one under Khrushchev, and then I was with him as a nine-year-old under Brezhnev, and then later as ambassador. And I think I learned so much, I mean, about the Western values and why it's worth, you know, fighting with everything you have to stand up for them, something that we're reminded of a bit more today. But just the closeness of families, the values of, you know, discussing issues at the dining room table, and And also, frankly, being able to pack up a bag and go anywhere in the world, which is the fate of a diplomat's child.
2:50Kate Fall:So do you always have a bag packed? Well, I do less now because I think that's the other thing about the diplomat's child is you sort of want to have a nest in a home, as it were, and home in London.
3:02Rachel Johnson:Do you now hate moving house?
3:04Kate Fall:I love my own bed.
3:07Rachel Johnson:now um as you've mentioned your twin sister i've got to confess that i called david cameron yesterday he was in america and i said i'm doing kate fall tomorrow and he said i adore her she's wonderful i you know and he he raved and raved and he said i've got sam on the other line so then i said well what would be the two questions you ask her so we're going to come to the first that you would ask her and the first is i'd really like to know and it's odd that he doesn't know what it's like being an identical twin?
3:38Kate Fall:Well, that is the million-dollar question of my life because, of course, as a twin, you arrive on the planet with someone else who has the same DNA as you. You look alike because we are identical twins. And I have mistaken you and Mel many times. Many people do. And we often get people thinking we're rude because they smile at us and we look completely unknowing at them. So it's very bad for personal relations. But look, I mean, it is a great strength if you get on with your twin. Melanie and I are so close. We're actually very different. We've had very different careers. She's in television, very distinguished television producer.
4:18Kate Fall:Also, you try to be different. There was always the short hair male, the long hair Kate, the BBC trouser look, whatever that is. And I always had compulsory long hair and sort of wore skirts. but we you know we've we've always got on so well you know I have children she doesn't she's like a second mother to my children so Guy and Olivia Guy and Olivia so it's an incredible relationship we also have of course an older sister who's really the boss of the Meredith of course I mean nobody messes with Meredith but it does teach you something very early on about relationships which is from day one you're aware of someone else's feelings of not wanting to hurt them about being with them as a so it's almost an original couple um which is something exactly making space allowing them to have friendships that aren't your own being courteous about giving people boundaries and space so as a life lesson having a twin i i recommend it it's not for everyone though and
5:15Rachel Johnson:what about romantic relationships does it ever get really complicated and jealous and jealous making when she maybe is in I don't know I mean I can only imagine well early on in our life people
5:28Kate Fall:used to say to us did you ever play tricks at school or we all know what they meant exactly um the answer is no I mean but generally speaking we did have a sort of agreement that arrived over time which is if someone was interested in a boy or man that was their territory and never would would it be crossed after that um if anyone tried to sort of flirt with us both it was sort of the iron door and that person was never seen again so i mean but what you say goes to a larger point which is about life and happiness i think which is twins like everyone in life you have your up periods and or down periods and the bit when the job is great when it isn't we will love or not and i think that's an enduring thing of the relationship which is we've always been there for each other.
6:13Rachel Johnson:Does she come first? I mean, I think leaving your children out of it, is she your primary adult? Well, I would say I'm very close
6:22Kate Fall:with my elder sister too. So we're a good group. Oh, that was diplomatic.
6:26Rachel Johnson:We're a good group.
6:27Kate Fall:And of course, as a mum, your kids always come first. But, you know, to share one's life with someone like that is unique and very important to me. I'm very jealous.
6:36Rachel Johnson:I'm very jealous.
6:37Kate Fall:You've got all those men in the Johnson family.
6:39Rachel Johnson:I know, and we're going to talk about being in an all-male environment, you know Downing Street very very soon but you're you know I'm so jealous that you had that unique proximity to another woman exactly the same age exactly the same DNA who you will always champion till you're both of your dying breath I would just add Rachel the diplomatic upbringing
6:59Kate Fall:you know you're lonely changing schools every year so that was an important part of what kept us less lonely than otherwise we might have been did you always go to the same schools yes we went to the same schools and we both went to the same university to Oxford where we came across you Rachel.
7:17Rachel Johnson:Why I mean you've been a political animal your your whole life you're now in the Lords what was it that I mean I know you flirted with the idea of becoming an MP but in the end you I mean I think I'm right in saying you thought you were better and placed to be an advisor a back room billy rather than a front of house person when it came to politics is that right why why
7:42Kate Fall:didn't you go become an mp i think um i was also lucky in that i got to be um a supportive act to someone who i really respect and admire and david cameron i mean not everyone is has a lucky ride in politics as an advisor and i did i got to work at downing street for six years which sounds like a very long time now when we have all these administrations coming and going. I also worked five years for David Cameron in opposition, leader of the opposition, which again was fascinating. And before that, I worked for Michael Howard. So look, I love the role of the behind the scenes. I feel like I hope I was good at it.
8:21Kate Fall:I loved bringing lots of brilliant other people into the equation, the speechwriters, the strategy people, the comms and being there at the centre. and it was a role that really suited me. I mean, since then, I do do a bit more of front of hours, as it were. You know, I sit in the Lords and I speak and I do things like this. Of course you do. But I'm still really proud of what I did. I wouldn't have changed that.
8:44Rachel Johnson:In your memoir, I mean, it's been noted that you accompanied David Cameron from his first day as an MP to his last day in office as Prime Minister and your description of those final days and then meeting in a tapas bar the next day when you were all out of office, like the day after on whenever it was. It's kind of out of body. When you look back at that time, what was your worst moment, best moment, biggest triumph, worst disappointment? I mean, can you just give me the peak and the trough?
9:16Kate Fall:There are lots of peaks and troughs, as you know, in politics. I mean, obviously, the first moment you walk into number 10 is a heady moment. You don't know where your desk... Everyone's clapping. Well, they clap the Prime Minister, not us. You don't know. But it's also a nerve-wracking moment because you've got a whole new team around the Prime Minister, professional officials. You don't know where your desk is. You don't have an email. It's your sort of first day in a new job, but not, which is a really weird thing. But I would also say that an even better first day was after we won the 2015 election, which we didn't actually think we were going to win.
9:56Kate Fall:I'd already done five years at Number 10. In coalition. So I knew exactly. So I knew how incredibly privileged it was to have that job. But to fight back to that same desk, that was a really amazing, I would say that was a definite high in my time.
10:12Rachel Johnson:And can you just say something about where your desk was and why that mattered?
10:17Kate Fall:So my desk, those of you who've never been to Number 10, the Prime Minister has an office called The Den. and my desk was just outside that door. You placed it there. So the first day I came to Number 10 when I didn't know where my desk was, I just knew I was going to be in that key room outside the Prime Minister's office. And George Osborne had said to me, the key thing in power is being, you know, proximity to power. So I thought, remembering that, I put my bag down. I thought, well, someone's got to sit here. Might as well be me. And I sat opposite my Edly Wellen, who was the chief of staff.
10:52Kate Fall:And we worked actually 11 years, Rachel, 11 years together, literally opposite each other. Incredible. And that is, of course, why you became known as the gatekeeper.
11:03Rachel Johnson:And that's why you called your book The Gatekeeper, because you were literally sitting there and, you know, that thing of people saying, is he in? You could have said, no, you know, he's not there or he's got, you know, Ursula von der Leyen with him or he's, you know, he's talking to whoever it was. And so you could really run his office in a way that no one has done since or before.
11:22Kate Fall:Well, I decided to lean into the gatekeeper title because I thought the gatekeeper was one of a few roles, of course, I had at number 10. But it was critical for what you say. I had a diary team behind me, but it's about who's in the room when the key decisions are made, Hamilton style, which is so important. and about how a prime minister spends his or her time, prioritises what issues. So it is much bigger than just how the diary is managed. And someone's got to do that role, and it's a really important one.
11:57Rachel Johnson:Before you start, you attached yourself, or he asked you to come and help him. I mean, I can't remember how it happened, but you said, I'll help you win, Whitney, and the rest is sort of history. I thought we should all talk about your career a tiny bit before that because we've skipped over leaving Oxford, not becoming a musician focusing on PPE at Oxford deciding not to be an MP but then, I remember we shared an office in the European Parliament That was an amazing moment I actually went through the gatekeeper and I found funny bits about the Johnsons but it wasn't important and that very kind the book's very generous But it wasn't obviously important enough to merit a note in your autobiography.
12:44Rachel Johnson:And I can barely remember it now. What were we doing in the European Parliament?
12:47Kate Fall:I asked myself the same question. I do remember working with you. It was great fun, Rachel.
12:51Rachel Johnson:It was absolutely a career highlight. Absolutely reciprocated.
12:56Kate Fall:But no, I think the background to that was I did work for an MEP for a while when I first left Oxford. And then very briefly for Howard Davis at the CBI. And then I went to the Conservative Research Department, which is the sort of classic route of many people in politics, where I was put in charge of Europe and animals. As you might know, agriculture and animals isn't something I know a huge amount about.
13:22Rachel Johnson:So I was a bit, what?
13:24Kate Fall:But after the election, Tony Blair swept the floor. That is when I think I did go and help the MEPs, having had that background briefly working as a researcher. And I think you and I helped them with a successful election campaign. I seem to remember the party did very well.
13:43Rachel Johnson:I seem to remember writing speech, writing, drafting comment pieces for Edward Macmillan Scott. Whilst you, I had his sort of ante room and you had his main office. And I remember my small children would come into the European Parliament and I would sit in Edward Macmillan Scott's swivel chair. and they were so impressed and then I'd take them down to the canteen and they thought, you know, they've never seen anything like it. And I said, the hemicycle and all the rest of it. But you hadn't had children then, I don't think. No, I had. I just had my first... I'd had Olivia. Olivia.
Read the full transcript
14:19Kate Fall:Yeah. So it was my first job after having a baby. So, yeah, it was a big move for me.
14:25Rachel Johnson:And were you living in Brussels? Were you commuting?
14:26Kate Fall:No, you were in Brussels and I was in London.
14:28Rachel Johnson:That's right. Okay, so you were managing to commute with a small child.
14:32Kate Fall:I was not commuting. I was holding up the London end and you and I were sort of boxing and exactly okay I think we
14:40Rachel Johnson:were good combo we were very I remember being terribly impressed by you as I still am as I still am um so back to Downing Street you were apart from Sam the probably the most important person in David's life and there's there's a bit in your book where I actually cried a couple of places actually I think we know what's coming but so you know the fact that you had to go to children's funerals one of them Ivan and Gordon Brown cancelling PMQs it's just that must have
15:11Kate Fall:been the saddest time in your political career definitely I mean I don't reread my book partly because of that I think it gives me makes me too too sad and I remember the tragic death of Ivan and the way in which Samantha and David were so amazing about it and reached so many people's hearts. I think I genuinely felt the way in which they dealt with Ivan and loved him and always took him everywhere with him, gave a lot of confidence to other families around the country. But they loved that child dearly and it was very hard for them when they lost him. And then, of course, it was that it just came near political year with all the pressure on the leader of the opposition, which, as you know, it's such a dynamic role around one person.
16:00Kate Fall:And David was struggling with that grief, and Samantha too, and I really, yeah, makes me sad thinking about it.
16:09Rachel Johnson:How he managed. Exactly. His father died two weeks after Ivan, and I just can't imagine. But somebody said to me, and I can't remember who, the great thing about David Cameron was that he has tremendous mental health and confidence and a kind of buoyancy and those are essential qualities for somebody in frontline politics. Is that what you observed? Definitely.
16:35Kate Fall:I mean, David is a tremendously grounded person and he really is a family person. He adores his wife. He loves his kids. But that gave him a sort of a very good outlook. in number 10. It also saved me being a good mother in a very difficult job because he would never have what he would call the Clinton pizza eating evenings that went on all night. I mean, of course, we would gather as a group and go over everything. But he did try to, you know, have boundaries in the flat.
17:07Rachel Johnson:He wanted to get home and he wanted you to get home.
17:09Kate Fall:He wanted boundaries and of course he'd call us and of course we'd be online and all that. So things switch, the number 10 switch, You were never far from that. But I feel like it gave him a very healthy outlook to also coping with some of those really tough decisions that you have, you know, sometimes about, you know, people's lives, going to war, going to conflict, which every prime minister has to face.
17:32Rachel Johnson:very difficult times towards the end obviously when he made his bloomberg speech promising a referendum but his two closest advisors were or closest allies in politics up to the time of the europe referendum campaign had completely different views about whether there should be a referendum or not whether we should be in and out of europe or not george osborne says that he tried to dissuade david cameron to hold the referendum obviously michael gove was in favor that must have torn this very close gang of Tories apart, the Notting Hill Tories.
18:09Kate Fall:I think that the decision to have a referendum, actually Michael was more against it because he felt that we should be concentrating on other things. And maybe he was also mindful of what you've just mentioned, which is the potential fallout. But there was very much a sense that the eurozone was under pressure to show up its currency and really pushing economic and political integration. So there was real pressure from Europe and there was a sort of drumbeat at home in the Conservative Party. But not just that. I mean, people forget that all three parties went into the 2015 election with an in-out referendum of sorts.
18:52Kate Fall:Labour said if further powers are passed over and so did the Lib Dems. But it was very much part of the political discussion at the time. So I think the pledge to have the referendum, George was always very hesitant about the idea of having a referendum, but he saw the sort of political, strategic sense of, are we going to be the only party that doesn't go into an election?
19:15Rachel Johnson:Was it in every main party's manifesto to hold a referendum?
19:18Kate Fall:So coming into the 2015 election, if you go back and look, they tended to go with something we called the referendum lock, which is if there's a new treaty giving more powers, we should have an in and out referendum. So, of course, ours was the most overt and there was a date and there was a whatever happened. But the reason why I mention that is I think it's important to remember this was a debate that wasn't just one political party's debate. It was out there being discussed. The Lib Dems, in fact, had talked about an out referendum early on. And so it was part of our political discourse.
19:55Rachel Johnson:OK, that's very interesting that you've clarified that. It makes it sound more sensible, really, the idea, the fact that he carried through on a manifesto promise and that Bloomberg speech promise. Now, the second question that David Cameron wanted me to ask you was, how does it feel, did it feel while you're in number 10? And of course, we've mentioned big beasts already like George Osborne or Michael Gove, Ed Llewellyn, of course, very close, but more of a kind of sub Rosa type of influencer. How David Cameron wanted to ask me to ask you, how did you feel when the men were sort of always not taking credit for things, but you never took credit or were given credit for things you were actually very important in achieving?
20:45Kate Fall:Well, that's very nice of him to put that. I mean, I think the job of someone as an advisory role is not to take the credit unless it's credit within the team. You're like, well done for calling that out. And, you know, one of the strengths of our number 10, and we by no means got everything done perfectly, was that we did tend to have quite robust discussions because we were a circle of trust. We did know each other. We'd worked with each other a long time. So there were times when you'd say your view and sometimes it would win out and sometimes it wouldn't and sometimes it was right.
21:18Rachel Johnson:But did they ever take credit when it was for you to take the credit, as it were? You know, mansplaining or he-peating or whatever.
21:26Kate Fall:Well, I think, oh yes. I mean, I think, look, there were definitely times when we'd joke when I would maybe put forward a view and then someone else would say, what a great idea. What woman hasn't been in that situation? And it's not just being a woman. It's also the heft of office. I mean, look, if you're George Osborne and you're Chancellor, you have the heft of officers. If you're Michael Grover and you're Chief Whip or you're Chancellor of the Duchy of Manchester, you have heft. And therefore, it's likely that. But mostly, I would say to be fair on them, I think all those people we've mentioned were really good colleagues.
21:59Kate Fall:They were actually very good at listening to other people's views. And I wouldn't complain about my treatment by them.
22:06Rachel Johnson:No, not at all. Which brings us actually to something that Sasha Swire suggested, I should ask you. She obviously wrote Diary of an MP's wife or political wife. I can't even remember now. And you're an old friend of Sasha's and you're nice about her. You said she has a very sharp political brain, which is true. I mean, really, I think she's a sort of she was a loss to politics. And her question, I think, is quite a kind of worthy one and an obvious one. but it's still one I want to ask, which is the all-male environment. You know, you're one of daughters, three daughters. You were brought up in the crucible of kind of not testosterone but progesterone or whatever, of, you know, all-female household.
22:51Rachel Johnson:And then you've, Oxford is quite male. Then Downing Street is very male. Politics is still very male. And what was it like?
23:00Kate Fall:So I think the first thing I would say is to other people thinking about going into politics, I would be hypocritical and say, please do go into frontline politics. We do need to encourage women to do that. I think there is a danger that women often don't even do policy. They do ops when they could. They do what? Operations. So in politics, you get some really smart women often doing the operation side of things, whereas you get more men doing the policy side. So, you know, in a way, men pay to think, women pay to whatever, you know,
23:34Rachel Johnson:don't do that.
23:35Kate Fall:I mean, do the operations side, but, you know, do both. So that's the first thing I would say. I would also say, look, I'm a bit of a natural peacemaker. I'm a Libra, Rachel. And I think maybe that's part of the twin thing. So at my best, I'm a peacemaker. I think I was a good broker, number 10, and that sort of paid my strength. But it wasn't always easy being a woman in a man's world. I did have some other strong women in Number 10, Gabby Burton, Liz Sugg, fantastic people. Simone Finn. Exactly, well, Simone wasn't in it. She was in the cabinet office. But exactly, really strong women and that was incredibly supportive.
24:12Kate Fall:But sometimes you do find it's a lonely world and especially if you're a mum and trying to see your children, you sometimes feel, you know, who's the other person here who I can just discuss how it feels or so I would say it's definitely a challenge, but I think it's something that we need to encourage. We need to encourage our daughters and young women into politics still. I think I completely agree.
24:37Rachel Johnson:I mean, you are, you know, still in politics. I want to ask you about life in the Lords as well. But I've just got to talk about one thing, which is that you're always most immaculately turned out.
24:50Kate Fall:Thank you.
24:51Rachel Johnson:You're the best dressed woman in Westminster.
24:55Kate Fall:You made my day. I've always thought so.
24:57Rachel Johnson:I always ask you where you get your clothes. Thank you. Is that something that's important to you, presentation? Has it always been important? I mean, there is an additional burden on women in the public eye when it comes to presentation. We're seeing the state visit right now. and we can see how much time and money and effort and planning has gone into something like this, especially for the women who are going to be scrutinised so much. Exactly.
25:26Kate Fall:Well, look, thank you very much as the first thing. I am dressed in seven today on Samantha Cameron.
25:32Rachel Johnson:Samantha Cameron's label, which is... And I don't know what I'm going to wear once that is no longer. Well, as she said, there is still availability for the next couple of seasons.
25:43Kate Fall:Excellent. Thank goodness for that. But look, I've always tried to look my best and look professional. And obviously, when especially you work in number 10, you feel every day is an important day. That's a sort of a building of state. You never know who you're going to bump into. But it's about just feeling that you represent the dignity of the office that you have at that time. And so, yeah, I do my best. I don't always get it right.
26:09Rachel Johnson:Well, I think you do. your book ends I think with a reflective generous note about how history will be kind to the Cameron years you wrote the book a few years ago now so much has changed I mean will history be kind to this era in modern British politics
26:31Kate Fall:well I think it's a very good question I mean I hope so I mean I think one of the important things to think is that each era has you know a different different contexts and the different politics that go with that. So if you were going to transport David Cameron into today's politics, would he be running on, you know, some of the more sort of, some of the values and, well, definitely the values would remain, but some of the policies or the outlook, things would have changed because it has changed. So I think remembering an era needs to be checked in the context. But look, I'm still proud of the government we were part of.
27:10Kate Fall:I actually thought the coalition was a good thing. I think it showed two parties could come together and really try and help put the nation back on track. I often find it funny if Liv Dems get a bit sort of, oh, I'm so embarrassed about our time in government. They should be proud of the fact that they were in government. So I hope that history will look back and see it as a
27:33Rachel Johnson:good period. Well, you mentioned coalition, which brings me to an obvious question, which is that But if it were to defeat Kirstenmer's Labour Party or another leader's Labour Party at the next general election, do you think force majeure would dictate that the Conservative Party, historically the most successful party this country has ever produced, will have to do some sort of electoral pact with reform?
27:59Kate Fall:Well, that is the million dollar question. I mean, you look at the numbers and obviously I want the Tories to do better. I feel that there's thankfully quite a long way to go to the next election. Labour obviously are struggling. We as a nation want them to succeed because we want Britain to grow and do better. But I would like to see the Tory party doing better. And whether at some point that leads to an arrangement or that the right come together to form a coalition of some sort, who knows? It could be the left, though, Rachel. It could be, you know, it could be the Lib Dems with Labour, with, you know, this new party with Corbyn.
28:37Kate Fall:So what you are seeing is, whereas there used to be two and a half parties, it is amazing. Whenever I look at the polls, I'm so struck by the fact that you're seeing those five parties. And how that plays out with our electoral system, I think, is the million dollar question.
28:54Rachel Johnson:Does Kemi come to you for advice ever? No. Why not, do you think?
28:59Kate Fall:I don't actually know, Kemi. I mean, I wish her well. I do know Henry Newlove, her chief of staff, I'm on friendly terms with him and we have chatted. So, you know, I think she should.
29:13Rachel Johnson:How did it make you feel when Nadine and Doris and Danny Kruger left, which I thought, you know, slightly ramming the stake into the body of the Tory party, saying, one, Nadine saying the Tory party was dead, which I thought was unhelpful, and then Danny Kruger saying it was over. Do you think they have to say that because they've left? I mean, are they right in any way?
29:41Kate Fall:I don't think they're right, and it made me sad to see both of them. I don't actually know Nadine Doris very well, but, you know, she's a strong woman in politics, and I've always admired her for that. Danny Kruger, I do know. I mean, he used to write David Cameron speeches. He didn't write the line, hug a hoodie, but it was the essence of that speech.
30:02Rachel Johnson:Who did?
30:03Kate Fall:And he wrote the speech that talked about...
30:07Rachel Johnson:The hugging the hoodies. The hugging the hoodies.
30:09Kate Fall:He's a super smart guy. He's, you know, he's very committed. And I felt sad to see him go and I hope he'll come back.
30:19Rachel Johnson:Well, I don't know. It seems to be all the traffic seems to be going in one way at the moment.
30:23Kate Fall:I mean, that is a danger that that picks up momentum and that people who lost their seats or think they could leave their seats begin to change. But I still think I mean, I don't want that to happen. But I also do want us to focus on, you know, what are the issues and what are we saying about the problems that our country has? Less than we are spending our whole time thinking about, oh, you know, who's leaving? Because that's that's the real issue. We have to remember politics is about how we're solving the problems of the country. and at the moment that we need to go back to that.
30:55Rachel Johnson:I couldn't agree more. I think that Westminster, the lobby, the media is totally fixated on personnel changes when what they should be fixated on is policy changes. Is there one policy area that you think Britain should be doing much better in?
31:12Kate Fall:Well, I mean, for a start, this very difficult issue about welfare. I mean, when we came into government, we did look at welfare And it was interesting, Rachel, because that, in a sense, was one of David's great strengths. His leadership style was to sort of embrace discourse. And there was a chat in the country, a discussion in the country about, you know, what was fair on welfare to people who needed support and people who were maybe stuck trying to get into work, but the benefits didn't quite work. The incentives were wrong and what felt fair. And it was interesting, if you remember, Harriet Harman supporting that welfare bill in 2015.
31:51Kate Fall:And that's a real sign that the nation sort of had got involved with that. And I think we should be having a discussion about that today. All these young people, you know, going straight into benefits, not working. We need to get them to work.
32:03Rachel Johnson:One in four, I think. We've got to move on to the format question. I know that you got divorced, I think, whilst in Downing Street, but I'm not particularly interested in your private life, but I am interested in hearing what was your most difficult time, Kate, for?
32:22Kate Fall:In politics or in general? You can choose. I would say, I would put that sort of moment of transition coming out of the Downing Street years as a difficult time. I think the reason for that is that when you work for 11 years with a bunch of people with such solidarity of purpose. You know, there's my children and my family and then that is the purpose for such a long time. It's quite difficult to replace that. In fact, I don't think you do replace that. I think you end up finding that you have lots of other things that you do in life that different bits of work and other things. So I think it's a difficult transition.
33:07Kate Fall:and therefore I would say that was definitely there in terms of up there in terms of a difficult time.
33:14Rachel Johnson:I can just what you're really saying is that nothing in life can ever replicate the intensity being in the centre of events being part in the room all those things I completely understand.
33:28Kate Fall:Yeah and I think it's not just I think people often think what you're talking about is power and the fact that you miss power. But actually, it's more the sense of purpose and the solidarity of the people that you work with, which I think is quite unique. And we didn't suffer from lots of office politics in our number 10. So there was a sense of everyone very much, you know, working together for something. So that, I definitely missed that. And then I was sort of, what, in my late-ish 40s when I left number 10. And so you're in your late-ish 40s, you're like, what am I going to do for the rest of my life?
34:01Kate Fall:so it does naturally bring on a sort of transitional period which I think was tough
34:07Rachel Johnson:but you're doing a lot of things you know you're working um in what do we call it um well I work
34:14Kate Fall:with Alan Parker at Brunswick which is financial PR PR yes and I Brunswick's an amazing um British success story and I I run their geopolitical practice there which has been incredible
34:26Rachel Johnson:learning curve and really interesting it sounds brilliant and I think you have totally landed on your feet and in the lords too baroness fall i mean my old friend kate fall thank you very much for being this week's difficult woman thank you
35:01You
From the publisher
Rachel sits down with Baroness Fall, former Deputy Chief of Staff to Prime Minister David Cameron, for an intimate and insightful conversation. She delves into Kate's unique journey from the heart of British politics to the House of Lords, exploring what it's really like behind the doors of Number 10. They discuss the pressures of power, the nuances of political loyalty, and the personal sacrifices that come with life in Westminster. Kate opens up about her time navigating historic events, managing high-stakes decision-making, and her reflections on leadership in turbulent times.