221. Sonya Barlow

0:02This is a global production. I'm not saying that we should be hired because of our race or our ethnicity. I'm saying that we should have equal opportunity to be in the room to begin with. But even now it's a who you know scenario versus a what you know. There's been a huge amount of resentment. I mean, post, I suppose, Black Lives Matter, when it was compulsory to have a DEI officer to have positive discrimination, that has now gone full circle. Yeah, exactly. You hear it at the business events, you hear it at the discussions you're having, you're at the dinner tables. There's resentment like, I was going to go for that role three years ago, but I couldn't because I hired a woman.

0:49When I found out I was pregnant, it was also a surprise, but it was also something that I could keep to myself for a while. And unfortunately, as a woman, you can't help but think, am I going to lose opportunities? What is the feedback going to be? Am I ready to tell my agent, my manager or my client that actually I'm having a baby?

1:19As AI takes over the world, thank goodness we have a difficult woman who has been called one of the most influential women in tech. Sonia Barlow is a tech entrepreneur. She's also the author of the new Rules of Networking. It's now in schools or on the curriculum or something, Sonia, you're going to tell me. Born in Pakistan, not a variation surname. I was going to ask you about that, Barlow. She came to this country as a tiny girl, did well and has been giving back. She founded and is the CEO of the Like-Minded Females Network. She's hosted her own radio show on the BBC Asian Network about entrepreneurship and careers.

1:57She's a two times TEDx speaker. She's also 33, young enough to be my daughter and has just had a new baby, her first baby. It's exciting, Sonia, because there's much to talk about. you've carved yourself out this space to be a female minority tech leader but you also make room for others and I want to make time for that but first you've announced it's not a secret anymore tell us about the new arrival no it wasn't meant to be a secret but I think because I have such a openly kind of public life and a public profile when I found I was pregnant not it was also a surprise but it was also something that I could keep to myself for a while and unfortunately as a woman you can't help but think am I going to lose opportunities um what is the feedback going to be am I ready to tell my agent my manager or my client that actually I'm having a baby and so I just wanted to nourish on that marinate it privately for a while before I then announced it and I remember my sister was like make the announcement make the announcement so one day she sat me down she's like okay go through all the pictures you think you're going to put on Instagram and let me do that for you so she like made the announcement for me because I was uh I was like no I'm not ready I'm not ready and it was brilliant because I think all these biases I had in my head just didn't really exist and so my book manuscript was due the same week as my baby was due um and then I think I took like two weeks really offline and I've just been back at work by choice because I miss working I'm motivated to help others um and that just means that my child who's only a couple, you know, a few months old is now on like Zoom meetings with me and gabbing away as if they know what the future of work looks like and has an opinion on everything.

3:40But, you know, ultimately you want to be an ambitious mother who shows their kids that it's okay to make these choices and find balance and yap online if that's what you want to do. I mean, there's quite a lot there to process. So the baby's a few months old, is already talking? Yapping, yeah. Gabbing, doing whatever the sounds that babies make. Okay, but not speaking in sentences, but like cooing. Oh, no, of course not. Okay, fine. And can we find out if it's a girl or a boy? I don't think I'm ready to say. Fine. No, no, totally fine. So when your sister was going to put photos on Insta, was it going to be of you or of the child?

4:26No, it was of me. so we put um pregnancy pictures up of me okay I think I was one of those late pregnancy bloomers who didn't look pregnant until she was like nearly there about to pop so I was at conferences hosting stages um and writing my book and going to business events people not knowing I was pregnant or that I was expecting uh until literally like six weeks before my stomach came up my sister was like now you have to tell people because you are going to these events and they're gonna know and then I rang my like agent up and I rang my publisher up and I was like by the way I'm having a baby like oh my god congrats I was like yeah in like two months and and they were like what about your manuscript but I had that sorted and it wasn't a secret because I was hiding it from the world I think it was a secret because I wanted to just nourish it for myself and have and understand what I then wanted to do after baby did I want to go back to work did I want to delay my manuscript did I want to still do content online did I want to do radio shows like this you know what I mean so it just gave me the freedom and time of choice which I think with the amount of information we have we just don't have as much anymore and what conclusion did you come to after you've given birth for you know that you're a few months into motherhood and you're back at work and I love working I love working I love what I just love it I just love work honestly I just love work um the conclusion I came to is I absolutely love being a mom and that is my primary role and at the same time I want my kid to know that if you choose to work you have to also be committed and you can't quit on it so I pick my work wisely like I went to Geneva the other day and I couldn't stay the night so I literally went on a 4 a.m flight and came back at 10 p.m so I was knackered but I chose my heart that was the work I said yes to but I didn't go to Oxford on a three-hour train because I just didn't feel that that was appropriate for taking time away from my child.

6:24So, you know, you do value your time. My prices and fees have definitely increased. If anyone's listening, like they've gone up because you're taking time away from kids. Noted. And also, but you're learning new skills. Like you're so much more efficient. You are, you're able to delegate. You're able to multitask. You're a great communicator. You're a budgeter. I think I've had this, you know, probably what's it called, like, really short period of skill enhancement. And I just feel like I'm an even better employee now after giving birth. Sonia, just answer the question, which was probably a bit cheeky about why your surname is Barlow.

7:03Are you married to a Mr. Barlow, for example? No, that's actually my major name. So it's my father's family and his family upwards. um my surname has always been barlow i guess you know one point the british came to pakistan and people changed their surnames around maybe my family was one of them but it's always been barlow and it's it's interesting because it definitely throws people off as to my surname doesn't match my skin color and appearance and it doesn't match my accent so i remember when i first started working around 2015 equally the same question came up but for some reason my colleagues like stopped the meeting and this one when we had Webex so they stopped it and they were like listen we just want to know why your surname's Barlow and I and my hair was like I don't know why that that's relevant but I still answered the question right and then a few years later you realize that actually that's just we're not sure why it's relevant but that's okay that that's That was asked back in the day.

8:05We read all the time that people who have male Anglo-Saxon names do better when it comes to job applications. So do you feel that there's been an advantage to you? Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say that my name is an advantage to the extent where it does get me through doors and it does get me those meetings. And if anything, it's a conversation starter because I'd be like, I'm Sonia Barlow. and they're like, are you sure? Are you pretending? Yeah. Are you pretending? Then are you related to Gary Barlow? I'm like, yes, he's my uncle that doesn't reply to my DM. So in case he replies to you, send in my book.

8:42You know what I mean? Like, we're not related, but that's the reference point. So it's definitely helped me get through the door. At the same time, I would say that the last couple of years, it's also hindered opportunities. So, you know, a really good example being South Asian heritage month a lot of people don't therefore think I'm South Asian and so the opportunities don't come my way or when I went for my first TEDx talk I remember the interviewer because you have to go through a number of interviews literally said to me look your your story is amazing but I'm going to be honest with you we have enough white women we're looking for a brown woman and I had to turn my video on to be like I am a brown woman I just don't have the name and don't necessarily sound like one.

9:22So there's a there's a pro and con. But you know, I haven't I haven't felt the bias the same way that maybe my siblings or my cousins or my friends have. No. And that's my advantage. Yeah. And and you own it. Your story is interesting. You came over from Pakistan. You're born in Pakistan. You came over as a three or four year old. I've read. Yes, four year old. Four year old. And you you're educated in this country. Yeah. And you've done a ton of stuff. you know yes you've really built up a serious career yes and I did want to ask you because a lot of it is kind of the foundational premise of it is that you you as a Pakistani origin female have had to overcome obstacles you know leaving your your surname your advantageous surname aside of it and you want to pass on those advantages to other women in in your shoes we've seen a real pushback against that kind of positive discrimination.

10:21I mean, it starts from Trump's MAGA America, but it's come over here and taken root in the kind of restore reform ecosphere. What do you have to say about that? Yeah, I mean, we have seen the pushback. We've seen the pushback in the way that even business has done, where the budgets are, where the conversations are going, the leverage to grants or access to opportunities. We've seen the pushback when it comes to even, you know, who's being invited into the room and the events that you get kind of invited to. So Gil, say more about that. I mean, is it like reproductive rights in America being suddenly like withdrawn in the red states?

11:07I mean, are you seeing that people are thinking, no, they've come as far as they have to and now we're not going to do any positive discrimination anymore. Yeah, I mean, in the simple words, yeah, it's not, look, it's, how do I say this? I think there was, so for context, the reason why I've done so much in my career is not because I always wanted to, it's because I had no choice. I got misplaced and fired from work two times before the pandemic. So when the pandemic came, I was like, I just don't want to make it three out of three. And I was depressed and I had no motivation. So I was like, let me just see if I can do things on my own.

11:43Timing worked, right? Because diversity and inclusion was a real kind of focus point for a lot of businesses. So they had the budgets, they had the marketing spiel, and they positively discriminated. So they would put pots of gold in different pockets, which meant that minority groups and minority founders, like myself, we had access. We were invited to the tables. We were invited to the dinners. We were given the grants. And then in the last couple of years, we've seen that taken away. but it's not just a matter of taking away like oh you can't have it it's we'll get back to you or you get ghosted so if they don't want to say they're not doing the work but they are not doing the work outside of that because there is a there's there was a lot of information a few years ago and now it feels kind of regressive you're hearing those same jokes and the same kind of microaggressions creep up in conversations really you're hearing at conferences you're hearing it on whatsapp groups you're hearing it at what you know people that are sharing whatsapp messages i mean you know you'll go to you i just i just went to a conference last week and you'll you'll have the woman of color all kind of like go together and there's like three of you and you're like oh at least we have some kind of support because because you know they're just not focusing on that hiring anymore i'm not saying that we should be hired because of our race or our ethnicity i'm saying that we should have equal opportunity to be in the room to begin with but even now it's a who you know scenario versus a what you know so we're going back to a who you know scenario back to your point about um rights right we're seeing a lot of you know like whatsapp forwarded messages from various social platforms which people don't have enough information about But because we are in the attention economy, if something is a headline for seven seconds, you just think it's true.

13:37And then you forward it on, you forward it on, you forward it on. And because of the formation of technology, I think less people are being critical about what they're reading or they're consuming. And so if you're having those same messages of media and marketing and music creep up again, you can't help but have your brain rewired and regress slightly. so you know in in the same way i'm in a lot of dinner tables where people would be like finally we're doing something about the the positive quota discrimination finally we don't have to hire that person or bring that person in and what can you do you can you can you can fight you can argue but then at some point you bite your tongue um because it's difficult right it's a catch-22 too it's like you want to be in that room so you can create change but to create change if you're not invited then what happens you're seeing it with budgets you're seeing with finances you're seeing with conversations like this you know there's been a huge amount of resentment i mean post i suppose black lives matter when it was compulsory to have a dei officer to have positive of discrimination that has now gone full circle yeah exactly you hear at the business events you hear it at the discussions you're having you're at the dinner tables there's resentment like i was gonna go for that role um three years ago but i couldn't because i hired a woman and now they've been made redundant so finding the roles open and i've been given a chance and it's like well no actually maybe you just weren't great for the job have you ever thought about that that why would that be you know where they're where people's brain goes um and and you know positive discrimination can work for you if you're doing in a sense of you're not hiring based on someone's demographic but you're saying here's equal opportunity the best person gets that job or that gig but ultimately we want to make sure that the decision makers and the individuals who are creating those systems are diverse enough so the output is diverse enough and it's meeting everyone's need but if that's not the case then how can that be right it's a silly example but all the banks are now going online and so when you have the elderly like my own grandmother who can't go to a bank and who's getting people ringing her on the phone she doesn't know what to do but actually it's also because to some extent the decision makers are not of that demographic they're not understanding the demographic and so their output is not going to support a demographic that just isn't in reach anymore.

16:07So it goes beyond just race and ethnicity, right? Ageism is a real concern in the workplace too. And also with tech as well, and goodness knows what your grandma thinks about anthropic or Claude or whatever. You wrote before you kind of struck off on your own and you didn't want it to be third time unlucky, you said companies who wanted women diversity and inclusivity were actually saying, yeah, we want you in the workspace, but we want you to be a certain way. And I said, this is you speaking, unfortunately, my identity doesn't allow me to leverage in the workspace. Can you explain what that means in your lived experience?

16:50Yeah, I love the fact that you were bringing up quotes from way back then and I think in simple terms I am animated and I'm a bit eccentric and I use my hands and I talk quite a lot right I'm just like I've got the gift of the gab so when you're going through the interview rounds they're like yeah you'd be a great fit you fit the culture we want you and then when you get into the culture they're like uh actually you were a great fit and now we've got you and your marketing material we kind of don't like the fact you talk like this or that you have all these ideas or that you talk with your hand or that you have you're a little bit eccentric actually this is your role model that you should aspire to who is like someone who's just beige in personality and I unfortunately not beige in personality and do you think that women of color um they they want women of color to be more beige than other women they want women of color to to fit into a system that isn't made for women of color yeah of course of course I you know in in in 20 like pre-pandemic right one of my job roles there was a a man who was angry all the time at work he was just angry but he was senior and he was angry and he was okay that he was angry people like walk around him be like oh my god don't make him more angry but he was bringing very and it's fine now if a woman was angry do you think she would be senior or in a position where she's making financial decisions no so it's the system is working against us and for a while it worked with us or for us and now it's working against us again because of what you've said is resentment and there's only so much that you can navigate within the system before you have to break out of it remember I didn't break out because I was like oh I need to be an entrepreneur I broke up because I was literally let go from the system twice in two years it broke my heart because going back to my culture I'm a Pakistani woman who came to the UK for a better life and I have a great life I worked really hard to get to a degree level to get a degree and then get to the workplace I've always known you get a degree you go to work and you climb up the ladder now if people are pushing me off the ladder where do I go and so that was kind of the point um of of what what really happened and maybe I could have been a better employee of course but I had entrepreneurial skills so if you're coming into the business hiring me based on the fact that I have a network or I have a LinkedIn or I go to all these events and when I get into the workplace you're like that's cool you're doing it but we don't want any of that we want you to be sitting next to your boss so they can check what you're doing or commuting three hours for a half-hour meeting and you're not able to bring ideas to the forefront, that's going to start making you feel smaller.

19:51And ultimately, unfortunately, I'm just not the kind of person who is able to feel small. And I'm so glad that you knew that about yourself and you said, sod this for a game of soldiers. And you went and you struck off on your own and you've been a tech entrepreneur ever since. I mean, very hard. I mean, there's an easy way and there's a hard way. Which bit do you want to talk about first? Like-minded females? Yeah, sure. I mean, that's the basis of it. So that like-minded females was a idea of a brunch club because I felt like a loner in the workplace. And I was like, I don't want to speak about me feeling like a loner to my manager, so I'm going to go find people.

20:33But I also don't have a lot of money because I was working in London. And I was like, I like avocado and toast. you like avocado toast I went and made an event right I invited people for avocado toast and no one showed up the first three times right and then you just keep on going so it wasn't meant to be anything it is now it just meant to be a point of I feel like I'm lonely I don't quite know how to not be lonely I don't have a lot of money not to be lonely so how do I find friends it was just a point of finding friends in your 20s that started with events and it led to workshops and then when I got let go from work I had someone ring me and they were like oh we came to one of your workshops nine months ago and we've got this workshop that we want you to deliver what's your rates I was like well typically well I'm bad etc and they were like oh we have a budget of this and I was like you know what I'm happy to give you I'm happy to do the work in that budget even though I normally charge more I just I just felt like you know what what's the worst that can happen the worst is you have to do the work they sign the contract you have to go and deliver you have to deliver and be rehired and be rehired and that's that's just a snowball effect um the second gig that came through was a private email that you only got if you knew somebody and then one of my friends was also let go from her work at the same time so I was like can you please help me create this deck and present and we got that gig and that's really how it happened it just snowballed And, you know, my 2020 was my think like a man year, do like a man, which basically meant what's the worst that could happen?

22:04If I could do 30 percent of something, I'll give it a go. But but that does mean that sometimes you end up being quite noisy. And that's what I've had to navigate in my late 20s and my early 30s, which I think a lot of people don't speak about is it's easy to say yes to a lot of things. But then it's hard to make an area of expertise for yourself. and then you get called a difficult woman also because you're doing a bit too much but you're not doing anything well enough and so I had to take a step back a few years ago to be like hey I don't want to be known for everything what do I actually want to be known for and how do I position myself there because as you get older being a jack of all trades pays the bills but it doesn't ultimately give you fulfillment or it doesn't align opportunities very well and that's where it becomes quite difficult.

22:48And so what do you want to be known for, Sonia? Right now I'm loving being an author. This is your second book, The New Rules of Networking. And your first one was about being an entrepreneur. Yeah, exactly. So my first one is called Unprepared to Entrepreneur. I did a workshop for free in the pandemic. I said one of my goals is to write a book. Someone attended, liked the fact I said that, introduced me to an editor. I pitched a book. she was like oh that's a great idea send a proposal spent three days writing a proposal sent it they signed it and I was like oh my god now I have to write it and I did write it um and it worked but at the same time you know I'm very blessed that I'm a female I'm South Asian but I'm also like quite neurodivergent and I have ADHD so that meant my hyper focus went into play and I was like book, deadline, contract, Sonia must write and she did you know what I mean?

23:45And you did it and you've now you've written your second one. Yeah that came through a DM as well to be honest with you so you know what hard work pays off because people are always watching and listening but they are not the same people that are liking things or engaging and I always say that to people you know is if you're consistent at what you do in building credibility it's important and there'll be a lot more people booing you and not supporting you than there will be rating you but the decision makers they're watching and they want to work with individuals who have substance so one day on a january evening i got a dm from a publisher saying we liked the fact you're consistent on this theme have you thought about writing a book and interestingly i i had a proposal ready so we just kind of fit um but you know that comes with time and and and effort and also consistency and developing a usp and then just keeping on with with the usp yeah dilettanteism doesn't work at the moment in a in the attention economy where everybody has a portfolio as well and you need to have this focus and i think you're a brilliant example of that but everything you said was once what someone called me a difficult woman like i had i had i had a boss once who was like she just would have been influencer and i was like I don't I just want to be a really good worker who climbs up the career ladder I didn't even know what an influencer was back then but that's because I had a personality or you have co-workers who were like you're difficult because you know you're able to like work through your migraine like that doesn't make any sense I don't want to take a sick day because I am then not close enough to decisions but ultimately look I'm of Pakistani heritage and I come from quite a loving family who have never really told me what to do.

25:29And so I guess I didn't learn the rules of this game that the workplace asks you to play. And so I'm just making it my own rules. And within your family, whether, I mean, this is a stupid question, it's a boring question, but because you were of Pakistani heritage, did you feel you had to be a certain way, you know, marry and have children, blah, blah, blah, make delicious food, you know, for your family? I'd say when I was a teenager, probably yes, because not naturally of my family, but because of the school you go to, the culture around, you are what you see. And I saw a lot of women stay at home and raise kids.

26:09I wasn't around a lot of women who went to school or were educated or took their career into their own hands. and I remember going to university and you know there was a even at that point a question between do you live out or do you live at home and so I was asked to live at home completely fine I went to university in London eventually I built up that you know trust and went to study abroad in Italy and I remember yes when you finish university they were like oh so when are you gonna get married I was like why is that the first question I've just spent four years in a degree and a lot of depth at the back of it let me go and work and figure out who I am before we build that next foundation but you have to also remember I'm the oldest so yes there was an expectation and there was always a back and forth in terms of like communication but you you have to you have to communicate and you have to educate your family members as well and luckily I have parents who were happy to evolve with the times.

27:14You do sound as if you've had a kind of almost charmed existence, but you've made your own luck. I mean, you don't have to answer this question, but I think listeners might be wondering, you've had a baby. Are you married? Yes. Congratulations. I mean, it's not necessarily the correct answer. It's just, it's nice, you know thank you for for sharing well you'd be interested this is the first time I've possibly spoken about it but when I announced my pregnancy I had a lot of messages from people being like did we miss the wedding announcement or they were like oh so you're going to be a single mom I don't know why that was the kind of message that I was receiving but ultimately it's none of your business and what women choose to do with their lives and their bodies and their business is up to them and I think that's the point I'm trying to make is I've had a charmed existence because I've always focused on the choices that I'm making.

28:05And then I brought people along with those choices. When I chose to start a business, I didn't do it independently. I sat my family and friends down. I was like, that means I can't have takeout. I can't go on holiday. I won't have extra disposable income. That means I'll do late hours. And you might have to drive me to places. Are you all on board? Right? It wasn't, you don't do things independently, if that makes sense. But you do make room for your choices and you fight for them. And I think you've obviously you're a total badass. You're the Pakistani woman doing a business show, the first Asian to do one for the Beeb.

28:36In 2022, I read, the show was named the best radio show in the country. That's incredible. Thank you. I didn't think we were going to win that award. So I was actually in Kenya on a holiday. So I had no clue. Now, I know you've got to tell me when you've had to be most difficult or your most difficult time. But between in the last 10 minutes, I would like to talk a bit about AI and how it's going to change how we leading work. Let's start with Andy Burnham, who's done his first set piece speech as kind of prime minister designate. And I'm sure you were across that. He didn't mention tech or AI.

29:14Do you think that's a bad sign? I wouldn't use the word bad but I'd say that there's there's no need to not talk about it right you shouldn't hide it under the rug and you shouldn't pretend like it doesn't exist is what I'm trying to say technology is shifting the way that we work AI is here we're not going backwards people are trying to understand what the UK is now doing when it comes to building a playbook in the world of AI you know three years ago we had a whole meeting with a bunch of men who came over and spoke about AI and then after that we kind of heard that was when Trump came over and there was some basic US UK tech deal and I don't know what's happened to that exactly but that's my point is we've had a lot of hearsay but nothing's really come about it there's a lot of great businesses being built one two I'd like to understand how they're introducing AI into the curriculum I'd want to know about that because the kids of tomorrow need those skills and and three workplaces according to the research by publicist media and kinks university they just said the ai skills gap especially between junior and senior level is increasing by 150 percent and it's costing businesses 18 000 pounds per employee so i would want the next government to be aware of the gap that is existing and telling us what they are going to support us with in regards to education and tasks, typically.

30:41And did the book by Sarah Wynne-Williams about working at Facebook, which is obviously a world that you've escaped from, you know, the tech bros, the tech giants, big tech, the magnificent seven. She wrote a book. It's still a bestseller. She's been NDA. She can't even be seen with a copy of it. but um she she basically said that um you know there was harassment uh yes that facebook gave the chinese government access to data um you know it's been a number one best-selling book did i don't know whether you read it it's my current read so it's so interesting you said that oh really i mean did it resonate with you yes a lot of the what you hear happens in tech typically does happen in tech or used to happen in tech yeah and a big part of that is because we didn't give people spaces to speak up and if you did then you'd stop them because ultimately the workforce is created for profitability and the people that run it right so now I think that's where the new generation are really shifting um the research is that but also the world we're living in you know young people are coming out and they're speaking about mental health and inclusion and values and accessibility.

32:01By 2030, five generations would make up the workforce. So we're going to have to focus on how to embed those kind of values within the workspace, because we can't have any more whistleblower stories like the book that Sarah wrote. And it's not to say that they won't exist. I just hope that they decrease. You're speaking as if because there's been a whistleblower in Facebook, it's like because there was a Me Too movement or Black Lives movement, we won't have sexism, misogyny and racism anymore. The world doesn't work like that. Of course. There'll always be bad workplace practices. Yes. Yeah, of course.

32:37And there will always be bad people and bad workplaces and bad processes created in the workplace to support bad people. Yeah. Right. And bad bosses. I guess my point being is, if we can learn from these stories, it's how do we give ourselves the courage to speak up? But also for people who want to be bad, how do you stop yourself from being bad, knowing the system is then going to not is going to work against you? If we're protecting bad people because they bring in financial revenue or bad bosses because they make up, you know, a part of a historic workforce, then that's a system and a process problem.

33:15And that can't we can't let that happen anymore. Of course, there's going to be I'm I'm living proof of that. and mine wasn't as terrible, right? But it doesn't mean that bad things don't happen all the time. It just means you need sponsors and mentors and you need real stories like Sarah's story and various others to say it does exist and it's not okay. And the more people that speak up, the more we're going to fight against it. Have you ever thought about going into politics? I have thought about going into politics. I used to think about going into politics. I have to admit that I have to learn a lot more about politics and I have to learn how to have a poker face.

33:53No, the thing is, is that you've got depth and you're a communicator and you know about the most important industrial revolution that has happened already. I mean, they should be biting your arm off to get you to advise on tech and AI. Now, look, we're out of time and difficult times. You can choose when you've had to be difficult or when you've been through something that's been particularly difficult and it's often the first thing that comes into your head at this point so I'm just watching your eyes it's not like a big hoo-ha moment but a lot of difficult times when you're navigating the world like I am just comes from people close to you so I think as a woman especially like friendship breakups is actually a really difficult time because that's who you lean on and so when you think that you're so close to someone in the workplace outside the workplace and they let you down and you break up or you naturally drift actually I think sometimes that's harder than a typical breakup because you're so involved in that person and then how you choose to navigate it you could be quite difficult and I'm thinking of you know a best friend from childhood that we aren't friends anymore she was difficult to me I was difficult in that situation the situation was difficult but for some reason you always carry guilt and a bit of resentment And I think that is a difficult time, which outside of everything we've spoken about, a lot of people resonate with because a lot of people break up with friends, especially as you get older and your life changes.

35:27If your friend was listening to this, do you think they'd reach out to you? To be honest, my friend has reached out to me and I just don't really have space for the friends I used to have spaces for, especially now that I'm a mum. my space is limited my time is limited and so I think trust is a really big factor and if you've broken my trust then I can't really have you around myself or my kid. But I bet you are a great friend. I like to think so I hope so. I'm sure you've got a baby in the background and you're dying to get back to the baby and Sonia Barlow what a treat it's been to talk to you a total blast of fresh share.

36:07I know our listeners would have enjoyed hearing you. Thank you very much for being this week's Difficult Woman and Mum. Thank you. I'm so happy it was difficult, finally. It's like the gold star that you'd be waiting for, you know what I mean? Thank you for listening to another episode of my Difficult Women podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is always ready to go every Friday afternoon. Bye. This has been a global production.