217. Philippa Langley

0:02This is a Global Player original podcast. I said, look, I really think we need to investigate this because it's in the area where my research says the church is. So it was because of the film crew, who were all male, saying to the male archaeologists, we think you should look at this bone, that he eventually looked at it and found an adjacent bone and said it was human and said it is a burial. And you were there, I hope? I was there. Front row? No. Where were you sitting? I was pretty much behind a pillar. Oh, gosh. The front row was the university and the archaeology. It's just beyond, isn't it?

0:46The first finance meeting that we had, and I was sitting with all the finance guys and with Sir Peter, and he looked at me and he kind of said, well, Philippa, it's an interesting idea. Because he's the decision maker, he's the man. but he said the only bones that you're going to find in that car park are the bones of a Kentucky fried chicken but he said even so okay we're going to give you permission to do whatever you need to do

1:20I'm just sort of slightly overcome because I've so wanted to get Philippa Langley on this podcast has been we've taken a few years to get you here philippa langley which is kind of fitting because what you're about is is you know quests and discoveries and and just blowing the world's mind basically philippa langley who sits before me is a historian a best-selling author an award-winning producer and can i do i call you the amateur historian who you're nodding slowly i'm saying yes if it was 2012 because I was certainly amateur then exactly but I believe I've earned the right now to call myself a historian oh you more than we've got a great big book about the princes in the tower I'm sitting here but you are the woman who found the body of Richard III where instinct told you the Plantagenet King was buried.

2:21You had a Looking for Richard project and this happened in 2012. You uncovered the king in the northern end of the car park right where your research and your intuition told you he would be against everyone who told you you were bonkers basically. Should we start there uh for i mean what led you to that moment when you were standing in a car park in leicester and you actually cut tarmac so probably just to roll back a bit to my first visit to leicester because i was interested in richard's life and you are ricardian what do you call them people who are obsessed with Richard III? I would say people who are interested in Richard III and speak about him from a research basis background.

3:16So we get called obsessed. We get called brides of Gloucester. All these kinds of things in order to diminish our voice. But what I would say, we are the only ones who actually speak from the evidence. so it's quite specific yeah and just you know for those who did GCSE history just recap on the on the highs and lows of his that short king's reign yeah so Richard was petitioned to become king in the summer of 1483 by the three estates of parliament the lords the church and the commons because the previous king who was his brother, Edward IV, had died unexpectedly and then it had been discovered that he'd been married previously.

4:07So the children from his now marriage were deemed illegitimate and then you're unable to be anointed and crowned and to become king. So Richard was petitioned to become king, elected king, and he only reigned for just over two years. But that two-year reign was quite a remarkable one in terms of the legislation that he pushed through. And he pushed it through for ordinary people, for you and me, the great unwashed. Not for the wealthy and the powerful in society, it was for the weak and the disadvantaged. but there was a pretender to the throne called Henry Tudor on the continent who was backed by France who invaded with a French foreign invasion force.

4:56Battle took place at Bosworth on the 22nd of August and there Richard led a very brave cavalry charge directly to take the battle to Henry Tudor you know face to face but he was killed in that charge and so that was his short reign. But obviously he had a very long time as Duke because he died when he was nearly 33. And other things that are known about him, even I, who are completely ignorant of our history, I'm afraid, and our kings and queens, blame the schools I went to. He had curvature of the spine or some sort of scoliosis, and he apparently put the princes in tower. Yes, yes, where they were murdered apparently yes now we will come on to the princes in the tower but then you so you you read into him you you you were a member of the scottish i think richard the third society if that's what the name was yes it's you still haven't explained how it came to be that you became convinced that the body of richard the third who died in battle on bosworth field was buried underneath a car park in Leicester.

6:15So when I was a writer at that point in my life, and that was the job that I was doing, I was researching Richard's life. But I was looking at wanting to do something in terms of small screen, large screen, for his historical story. Because when we tell Richard's story, it's always through the prism of William Shakespeare. so it's it's the story from the Tudor writers it's a hundred years after his death it's a dramatic narrative but I felt it was important that we looked at the contemporary sources from his lifetime and actually told the story of the man you can see in those documented evidences because it's one of these stories where it's sort of fiction fact is stranger than fiction so that's why I was going to Leicester because I'd been to Bosworth to to look around the battle where he died but it was when I was in Leicester doing this research I'd been told to go to a particular car park because they said there's a piece of medieval wall in this car park and they thought it might be part of the large grey friars precinct that we knew was in that area before the dissolution of the monasteries.

7:32So I went to this car park, had a look at the medieval wall, which was really lovely, lovely car park. And then I was going home. But as I was going home, I saw another car park and it was a private car park with a barrier over it saying private, no entry. And there was a great big red bricked Victorian wall ahead of me in this car park. And I was absolutely drawn to go into this car park. I know this sounds like I've got a thing for car parks doesn't it so it was in this car park in the northern end of what was I've discovered was the social services car park in this particular place then I had this intuitive experience where I felt I was walking on Richard's grave and I do know how that sounds it does sound completely balmy but that is exactly what happened and I went home and I told friends and family about it and strangely enough they weren't dismissive they said well you know maybe that means something what the grey friars abbey or whatever that structure was called was that known to have been the place of his burial or was it just you know we're talking you know 400 years ago so yes yes Is there concrete evidence that this is where the remains of the king were placed?

8:59It looked concrete because there's a couple of contemporary writers who said that he's buried in the Church of the Friars Minor in Leicester. But then there was John Leyland who was doing his big tour of England and writing his book, I think in the 18th century. And he said, 17th century, and he said that he could, this is where Richard had been buried. and so there was quite a bit to give us that steer but there was also, there was a historian, one or two historians that thought he might have been buried in the Newark in Leicester because I think it was the Frauk Chronicle that said he was buried at the Newark.

9:39So it was disputed where his burial place was? It was disputed but I think most people thought it was. So you scoped out Bosworth and what was that like very quickly? Amazing. Yeah, it's really amazing. Yeah, you can actually see, when you stand up on Albion Hill, you can actually see where battle would have taken place. It's the perfect site for a battle. Then you went to this car park and some instinct drew you to the northern end of the car park, the social services bit. And is it true that there was, it must have said car park or something, and it was under the R of one of the words that you actually had your feeling that you were standing on the grave of Richard III.

10:27I was continuing with my research into Richard's life. I was going back to Leicester, so I went back to the car park the following year because I thought, I want to see if that strange experience was real. So I went back and I had the exact same experience, but this time there was a letter R on the tarmac, painted on the tarmac, obviously for reserved parking space. Oh, I see. Not for car park. No, it was just for reserved. Right. And it is a strange story, but it was at that point that my research focus changed, because I thought, I have to find out if this is real. I have to look into this. I have to see what the contemporary or near-contemporary sources tell us.

11:12Is Richard buried here? because the stories that were in all of the history books, bar none, before 2012, when they mentioned Richard's burial and what had happened to him after his burial, there was two stories that had been repeated and repeated and become truth and fact over time. So the first one was that his bones had been dug up at the time of the dissolution of the monasteries, carried through the streets of Leicester, and then at some point they'd been thrown into the nearby river. And the second story was that his stone sarcophagus burial had been exhumed and that stone sarcophagus burial had become a horse trough for a local pub.

11:55So Richard wasn't there. Even if he'd been buried in the Greyfriars, he was not there. And every single history book tells you that. Until you came along and proved them otherwise. Until I had that strange experience.

12:16you did the Richard looking for Richard project I think it was called and um you you got people on side you had to get the university on side you did a kind of joint what we call a collab with with them now eventually but my lead partner was Leicester City Council the landowner the university didn't come in later until very late in the day and to take the credit of course which we will come come to um leicester city council i mean just i'm picturing the scene you say i want to dig up this car park yep i mean there's been a film made obviously there's been documentary made it's been a film made um the lost king by stephen frears starring um steve coogan and anna hawkins sally sally hawkins haley sally hawkins which i've seen i went to the premiere you were there.

13:07So can we rattle through the next stages? The instinct was the same, you thought I'm onto something, nobody will believe me, then what did you do? So then I needed to look into what was out there. I've had this instinct, but it could mean completely nothing. So is there anything out there that suggests there might be something here? so that took about four four and a half years to try and look at every source that had mentioned Richard's burial in the Greyfriars or wherever else and everything that I could see supported that the church must have been in this area in the northern end of this car park of course he was buried in the choir of the church so it was trying to find out where the choir of the church was.

14:01So the research looked good. It couldn't be exact, of course, because there's medieval maps and plans and things like that, which are, you know, they didn't have, obviously, GPS and things like that in those days. But I think one of the most important sources was it said that the Greyfriars Priory was opposite, was to the south of St. Martin's Church. Now, St. Martin's Church which is the cathedral, and to the south of that, you've got the northern end of this car park. And so when I mentioned that to a couple of people, they said, yes, that's really interesting, but they're meaning the priory, so they're meaning the five international football field sites full of kitchens and gardens and orchards and whatever.

14:51But in my mind, when I was reading, I thought, but surely the church is the most important building, and in medieval times, you would have been looking to where the churches were to navigate your way around a new place. So that, again, was only my consideration. Everyone else said, no, that's probably not the case. But it turned out to be absolutely the case. And my mantra at the dig when we were doing the documentary, The King in the Car Park, was church, road, church. Because it was cathedral, then the road, and then the Grave Friars Church. and it turned out to be absolutely accurate spot on.

15:31Did you have to kind of show the medieval maps to the council and how it tracked with, you know, your hunch that this was the location that they needed to dig and authorise? I mean, it was a private car park, it turned out, in the end. Yeah, it was. But, I mean, how hard were they to persuade? In some places, they were quite easy to persuade because some of them had seen some of the medieval town planning maps, so they kind of had seen some of the things I was looking at. But in other places, I mean... They thought you were mad. Yeah, they did. In the film The Lost King, you can see there's that big round table.

16:10I know, we're meeting. Yeah, I mean, literally, I sat down, I remember sitting down, and you know when people's arms are folded, and they're looking up, and it's like, right, we have to be here, we have to listen to this rubbish. and so I tried to present as much as I possibly could to say it's worth looking you know I couldn't say that we're going to raise the funds didn't you yes yes the first time it was a company called Leicestershire Promotions Limited a guy called Martin Peters amazing I went in to see him and immediately he said he got it you see I can see this going one of two ways either them saying this is so crazy it's worth a punt because the publicity and the this is a story that will go around the world if it's true and then and then a whole bunch of other jobs worths going no how how quickly can we get this woman out of here yeah it was exactly that exactly that and so i'd worked in advertising and marketing so i'm selling it to them saying i want to bring a documentary crew whether we find him or not I'm putting Lester on the map because I'm trying to to say okay you might think I'm completely nuts but there's something of a benefit here there's that there's an upside here for you if he's not there I'm the one that's going to take the dive I'm the one that's going to look like a fool sure but for me even if we'd found nothing that would tell me something so for me it was a win-win as well and I think the the mayor of Leicester well he's still the mayor of Leicester Sir Peter Salisbury he tells this lovely story and it was so true the first finance meeting that we had and I was sitting with all the finance guys and with Sir Peter and he looked at me and he kind of said well Philip it's an interesting idea because he's the decision maker he's the man but he said the only bones that you're going to find in that car park are the bones of a Kentucky fried chicken.

18:07But he said, even so, okay, we're going to give you permission to do whatever you need to do. Have you been given the freedom of the city yet? I know you've been made MBE, haven't you? Yes, that was lovely. And it's such a brilliant story in so many ways. And I love the fact that it starts the way it us with with a woman's instinct and and not being believed yeah yeah and then let's let's fast forward a bit to you're standing on tarmac and they come in with their drills and their archaeological dig machinery and you're there and what are you thinking at this point i'm i'm relieved because Because it's taken me nearly eight years to get to this point.

18:57And you still believe? Yes, because the research looked good. And I think even the lead archaeologist, a guy called Richard Buckley, even he said, look, actually, the research does look good. But he wouldn't put his name to the search for Richard as such. He was looking for the church. Because archaeologists don't go in search of a particular little thing. But he's very interested in churches. But you were. You were looking for the remains of Richard III. That's what I was looking for. Yeah. How long did it take for, I mean, I've seen the film and the documentary, which I put up for a Grierson Award, by the way, because I was on the judge, a judge and jury panel.

19:37I don't know if you won one. We didn't. Oh. Anyway, you should have done. But that was quite a long time ago. I've seen the movie more recently with Sally Hawkins and Steve Coon. how long does it take for you to to find you know the holy grail it's we started digging on the 25th of august and by complete happenchance this is the exact anniversary 25th of august of when richard was buried in the great friars in leicester in 1485 and uh and it's literally the first thing that we find within a few hours it's a lower leg bone but the archaeologists and I totally get this because obviously they find bones all the time so the archaeologists were the lead the the director at the dig was quite dismissive could have been anyone because he said yes it could be anything it could be a an odd bone it could be Georgian it could be we don't know what era or what level we're at yet but um I was a dog with a bone because it was right in the place where my research said the choir was it was right and this was all being filmed wasn't it it was all being filmed all of it being filmed yeah and it's in an east west direction so he's telling me it means nothing but i'm saying isn't it couldn't it be a burial and because it's in an east west direction and what the lie of the bone was yeah the bone was lying east west the lower leg bone was lying east west so i'm thinking burial and he said well it could be an odd bone and then then we kind of look across and there's this big storm massive I mean the sky is darkening literally the light is going and this huge storm arrives and it's thunder and it's lightning and and I said at the time it's like a Shakespearean scene and so I'm rushing to try and get this lower leg bone um covered because a DNA specialist that we were working with at times said water can of course affect so the archaeologists were actually seeing me running around like a you know saying cover the bone cover the bone and all of this so again I'm looking not like a you know I'm looking like a deranged individual because I'm thinking if this is Richard and if this is all we have of Richard we need to protect it but then because I'd done that and the film crew who were with me they were great and I said look I really think we need to investigate this because it's in the area where my research says the church is so it was because of the film crew who were all male saying to the male archaeologists we think you should look at this bone that he eventually looked at it and found an adjacent bone and said it was human and said it is a burial okay so there was a male archaeologist down in down in the grave um being taking direction from the male film film crew to investigate further yeah and yet i was the client at the dig yeah you you you led the research that led to that spot that you'd organized the dig you'd got the council on side got the money for it got the money for it and yet somehow power was removed from you quite soon yeah yeah you found the most of the skeleton though we did apart from the feet because the feet are very fine bones anyway but it looks like the victorian builders who were gouging out the earth very close by cut them off yes cut the feet and took them so and i think and And I think they discovered that they were about like two inches away from actually taking all of Richard when they were building a big outhouse there in the Victorian times.

23:31And of course, you found the spine, which also proved, well, you carry on. Yeah, because as you know from Shakespeare, he was called the hunchback. And of course, that is the most inappropriate word. We don't have another. but it describes the the condition of kyphosis which is a forward bend of the spine and it gives a hunched appearance in the back but i'd again been doing my research we have descriptions of richard by people who met him and he's described nobody mentions anything abnormal and then i spoke to loads of specialists in combat medieval combat specialists equitation horse riding specialists and I said look we know all the things that we know that Richard III did could he have done them if he had kyphosis and they said no way there's no way he could have fought in battle it's close contact his head would have been down he wouldn't have had the 360 field of vision that he would have needed so when they opened the grave and you could see the twist in the spine but he was hunched in the grave and quite rightly the specialist said this looked like the remains of a hunchback.

24:46I was thrown, completely thrown, because that's not what the research said. It was going against all of the evidence, all of the research. But what we then discovered when we got him back to the science labs and they actually properly looked at him and laid him out, was that he'd been hunched in the grave because the grave had been cut too short for him. They thought he was a lot shorter than he was. And it was a scoliosis, which is just a sideways which so he could have died in battle he could have ridden into battle oh he could have done all of that because Usain Bolt has got a scoliosis you are very physically active and physically able it gives you one shoulder slightly higher than the other which our dearly beloved queen that we've lost she had one shoulder higher than the other I didn't know that yeah her dressmaker had to pad

25:41DNA and the scoliosis and the location confirmed this was the body of Richard III. What were the DNA findings? The DNA was crucial. And in fact, that was the groundbreaking discovery for me. Because it was done by a guy who's no longer lived with Dr. John Ashdownhill. Some weird, far relative. Yes. Yeah, he found the Ibsen family in Canada, who was a direct all-female line of descent from Richard's sister. And it was when I mentioned that in the meeting in Leicester that suddenly the arms unfolded and the eyes stopped rolling. Because I said, look, if we find remains that look like they might be his, a DNA test will tell you if it's him.

26:29So, yes, the Ibsen family, I think University of Leicester, when they were looking at Richard's descendancy, they found a second line of descent that they could triangulate the DNA. And it all checked out. It all checked out, but it was the Ibsen line. Perfect. It's just incredible. My mind remains blown. My socks have been blown off as well as ever. Can we fast forward and how, I mean, so vindicating for you, so triumphant. I mean, win, win, win, win, win. But somehow, the way the story developed, somehow your role in it, your starring role and your achievement, was somehow downplayed. Can we just explain what happened there?

27:19How it was portrayed in the film? How the makers of the film were, in fact, even sued by one of the academics at University of Leicester to try and discredit your role in this further. Can we just kind of, can we tell our listeners about what happened then? You had found Richard III. Next chapter, please. So we'd found him and then it came the identification. And so this was being done by scientists at Leicester University, but they were also using for the ancient DNA because you'd need the modern DNA and the ancient DNA from Richard. They were using York University and Toulouse University. So those universities were looking at that.

28:08And the osteologist was from Leicester University. So that was going on. And then they made a big announcement on the 4th of February in 2013. So he was finally exhumed on the 5th of September and removed from the car park on the 5th of September 2012. but he was formally identified in front of cameras because the University of Leicester did a big sort of, on the BBC, full announcement with all the media there to identify him. And I was a writer. I was a member of the Richard III Society. I was not a professor or an academic. Were you invited to that reveal of the media? I was invited to it, but I was...

28:53I was the last speaker. And the news feed was cut by then. But why didn't the BBC or whoever, why didn't the media think, Philippa Langley, she's the woman who found the king in the car park. Why? How could it have happened like this? I hate to say it, but the BBC have not been great with me at all. When the film came out, the university put out a statement basically saying this film is lies. and they sued Steve Coogan yeah and they sued Steve Coogan and all of that and I had interviews lined up with the BBC to do all kinds of things, they were all cancelled immediately but can you explain it?

29:35I think the University of Leicester is a very very powerful institution you could fool me sounds like a misogynist ungenerous you know, bunch of withered academics who are trying to deprive a woman of the recognition she she deserved and she she fought for so hard for so many years I think probably maybe if I was looking for Richard now it might be a different scenario maybe somebody who's not an academic might be they might be more accepting of a non-academic so it was prejudice because you were an amateur at the time you're a woman and also I think it's because you said you went on intuition yes they knew about sort of most of them knew that I felt he was there and all of that but also I think I was a Ricardian and way back then I mean even still in some circles now we do get ridiculed you know we are presented in a certain way and so I would think I was this this this perfect you're an obsessive you mean yeah yeah exactly why is she interested in a child murderer and a tyrant and all of this there's something very odd about this woman.

30:49So the good news is that he was reburied. The king was reburied. I remember watching it. And didn't the king or the queen come to the reburial of Richard III? Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, came, who is his namesake. And he's the patron of the king. Didn't the queen come? The queen couldn't come because going to a funeral of another monarch. Oh, weird. Yes, there's a weird thing. Yeah, the king is dead. Long live the king. Exactly. There's a weird thing going on there. So the palace were not happy with that. But what she did instead, which was marvellous, was she sent her favourite. She sent Sophie Wessex.

31:24Yes. So, you know, I love the fact that Sophie Wessex was there. I thought that was a real win, you know, because. And you were there, I hope. I was there. Front row. No. Where were you sitting? I was pretty much behind a pillar. Oh, gosh. the front row was the university and the archaeologist it's just beyond isn't it and then when the film comes out the university sues can we just listen i wish we had much much longer you are on the track you you are your latest book i think is about the princes in the tower which i suppose you would i you know your detractors would say would be a ricardian rehabilitation exercise yes he didn't kill the princes they there's evidence that they continue to live, they weren't murdered in the tower.

32:12Quickly, you have or may have found another king in a car park. Yes, it looks like potentially Henry I is in the prison car park in Reading and potentially under K for king, but we'll have to see. Yeah. And is that going to be, are you actively working on that? I'm part of it. It's called the Hidden Abbey Project. The lead partner is Reading Borough council so yes yeah I put the Hidden Abbey project together with a couple of people in Reading so we're hoping that maybe next year the year after we'll get the what are the chances of you finding two kings buried under tarmac in municipal car parks it will funnily enough because they were such religious places churches in those days that they didn't like to build on top of them so there's a lot of churches under car parks.

33:08Now can I ask you, when you visited that car park, did you get your feeling or not? No, I have no connection with Henry I whatsoever. I was not writing about his life at all, but I was asked by the people of Reading to help them because they want to put Reading on the map because of Henry I. So I said, I'll come and help you. And that is my role in the Hidden Abbey project. I just have to say one thing though, Rachel, I know the detractors for the princes in the tower, but will say this is just me. I'm not saying it. No, no, the detractors. But I would say it's been a 10-year investigation by over 300 people around the world, and it's following police methodology, and we have been looking at all of the contemporary sources in archives and everywhere.

33:54Follow the evidence. Yes, it's evidenced. Based. Now, everyone who's seen the film will know that you've had Emmy, which is a myalgic encephalomyelitis you seem very well but I know that you didn't you were the chief witness for the movie that was made The Lost King but you didn't you weren't able to attend court and so that case settled out of court and Steve Coogan has been given a very generous interview to The Guardian about you and the film is wonderful and I do recommend everyone should go and see The Lost King so we can fit you can fill in so much of the drama and detail of Philippa's story um how are you now and in my podcast I do ask people when have you had to be most difficult or when has been your most difficult time so just how are you you how are you doing and your most difficult time yeah I am okay now I'm on the up again but I it was a perfect storm of things happening to me in succession after succession after succession and I literally broke and I broke in every way a person could and it felt like when was this this was about three four weeks before the court case was getting ready I see and it had started in the summer of 2005 with a number of things that were happening that just were I had to deal with one of them was a stalker which hasn't been great but they all came together and the only way I can describe it is like walking on a marble floor and feeling that you're a vase and dropping it and smashing and I literally I was that broken and I literally just couldn't make it could not make it in any way shape or form and it destroyed me it absolutely destroyed me because this was our moment steve's moment all of our we all were looking forward to going into court to presenting all of the evidences that we have and for the judge to then come to a fair conclusion but you had to settle but because i couldn't be there didn't they take any written evidence could you do not do video evidence something like that anyway i of Of course, everyone accepts, you know, you've achieved miracles to be where you are and what you've done already.

36:26But maybe, maybe the BBC will do an inquiry. Because Mr Taylor, who brought the court case, asked for the BBC to do an inquiry. Steve Coogan said, yes, let the BBC do an inquiry. I would add my voice to that. The BBC co-produced the film, did they? Yeah, BBC Films. when I spoke to Stephen Frears over the course of the last 24 hours because I told him I was interviewing you he just texted me to say I believe her and they do the evidences we had were overwhelming thank you very much Philippa Langley I know you've got to rush off back to Edinburgh but thank you so much for being this week's Difficult Woman thank you Rachel for having me it has been an honour no the honour is all mine I mean it and we made it happen finally thank you so much thank you I could honestly have talked to Philippa Langley for another four hours there was so much more I wanted to ask her about you know Henry I the princes in the tower and not to mention the fact that she was stuck behind a pillar when they reburied the lost king.

37:38What a story. And I do recommend you watch the Stephen Frears movie. Thank you for listening to another episode of my Difficult Women podcast. Just remember to subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is always ready to go every Friday afternoon. Bye.